Slashdot Mirror
Windows 8 PCs Still Throttled By Crapware
jfruh writes "Windows 8's Metro UI presents a clean and spiffy new interface for Microsoft's latest OS. But one of the operating system's oldest and most hated problems — crapware — still lurks below the surface. For instance, the Acer Aspire 7600U is an all-in-one that, at $1,900, is hardly a bargain-basement PC. And yet as shipped it includes over 50 pieces of OEM and third-party software pre-installed, much of which simply offer trials for paid services."
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/html/pbPage.MicrosoftSignature
Vizio PCs dont have any crapware either.
What has this got to do with Windows 8?
If MS stopped OEMs from bundling Google toolbar, everyone here will be crying antitrust.
You want MS to make Windows a closed platform like iOS?
Freedom is not free.
This space for rent.
Am I the only one that finds this list somewhat questionable?
Of the 50 items, most of it definitely fits the definition of crapware: McAfee® Internet Security Suite, WeatherBug, Wild Tangent, etc
But then there are some other items in here that have me scratching my head. When was Solitaire or Minesweeper crapware?
They seem to just be listing all non-stock software (since MS doesn't include their Metro games in the box), which is not the same as crapware.
I figure the crapware vendors pay enough to balance out the cost of MS Windows 8. Thus, when I wipe the hard disk and install Linux, I'm still breaking even.
My clean Android is full of crapware that I can't remove. Windows crapware is removeable.
Windows beats Android on crapware.
I said - don't look Ethel!..., but it was too late..., she'd already looked.
why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet when MS own tools are better.
Just don't do a dual boot. I found that it is easier and cleaner to install Ubuntu to a second hard drive and switch between the OSes from the BIOS. I don't need Windows 7 that often, but it has come in handy.
This is the OEM business model. Razor-thin manufacturing hardware margins mean that there's a HUGE department that does nothing but inbound deals for software product placement - this is how they get profitability. Don't expect much change. Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week. Be sure, all of this is instrumented with web-bugs and behavior-tracking galore.
Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Windows 8 arguably comes with crapware by default, even on a clean install. The Microsoft Store, Bing toolbars, weather and financial tiles, and the abomination that is TIFKAM (the interface formerly known as Metro). Clean and spiffy? I don't think so.
Awhile ago I remember hearing that you could download a clean iso of Windows x directly from Microsoft if you have a valid serial number for whatever version x is. IIRC it was supposed to be an alternative to those shitty reimage discs that OEMS used to give you (or force you to burn at your own cost) but better because they were crapware-free. Can you still do that? (I haven't bought a PC in ages and I'm still using Windows 7 so I'm not sure) The best course of action would be to reload a clean crapware-free version of Windows as soon as you get the iso burned to disc.
"It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
This is one of those "it's good to remind people of a pervasive problem" stories. Some people accept this as "status quo" and others see it as a serious problem.
We get it. The business of PCs is stupidly tight with slim margins. The easiest way to supplement profit is to sell software installation services to software vendors. It doesn't bother the OEMs that they are doing this at the expense of the PC customer or even at their own reputation.
Commenter Sussurros above states another obvious problem. Crapware on phones... android phones. And I heartily agree. I think we will see a bit less of it soon though.
Turns out Google is changing the game. I find it FASCINATING that the Google Nexus 4 phones cost between $300 and $350 and yet T-Mobile says it costs a LOT more and will sell it cheaper if you buy two years of obligated service with expensive data plan. What surprises me the most is that T-Mobile thinks they can get away with this... worse! They *are* getting away with it. Google sold out of inventory in minutes. T-Mobile sold out in hours. There are no Nexus 4 phones.
The phone you get from Google is bloatware free and carrier unlocked. I don't know if that's the case with the T-Mobile version... anyone know?
But just as in the PC market, the phone market cannot resist the extra money (even if they are making insane profits already) they make by including crapware.
I decided long ago when my contract is up, I will do this no more. I will have my Nexus 4 when it becomes available again. I'm definitely not buying from those scalpers... sheesh... $500, $600 each?! I know there's a sucker every minute, but I'm not one of them. I'll wait a bit longer... I've got time.
Android has enabled the game to be changed. This is something that ONLY open source software could do. It's not just free software. It's FREEDOM software. I know I'm not alone in my intention. I'll spend a little more up front and save a LOT more in the long run.
I'm done with your games, carriers. Are you listening? Done!
You sure seem to have an intimate knowledge of this neighbour.
How else are you going to justify that i7 CPU? Crapware needs to run on something. Oh, and a little extra left over just for you. Enjoy.
Life is not for the lazy.
Everything that Windows 8 brings to the table works against bloatware -- for example, Windows 8 Store apps can't monopolize CPU and memory unless the user deliberately launches and is actively running them, generally speaking. Store apps (aka Metro) are very well behaved due to intentional OS constraints. Desktop apps can still be poorly behaved and set themselves to run on startup, phone home, etc., but that's just because Windows 8 is compatible with poorly behaved apps written for previous Windows versions. Microsoft's Windows 8 software logo requirements for desktop apps mandate that apps _not_ add themselves to the "run on startup" registry keys. But that part is not enforced, which was the right call on Microsoft's part. If they made Windows desktop software a walled garden, everybody here would be screaming bloody murder.
tl;dr version: basically Windows 8 brings a substantial improvement against bloatware in that the RT/Metro/Store side protects your CPU/memory resources from being consumed by it; but the legacy desktop side is still an unlocked experience, and vendors can install junk on there if they want to.
One of the worst pieces of crapware I've ever encountered, with regards to hijacking functionality, trampling user-defined preferences, insinuating itself into unrelated software, hogging resources, being uncooperative with attempts to uninstall, and just generally causing anguish and frustration is QuickTime. Last I checked, that's an Apple product and a Mac staple.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
As of Ice Cream Sandwich:
- Settings / Apps / All
- Select the unwanted app/service
- Click Disable.
It's still in ROM of course, but it won't show up in the App Draw, it won't be started on boot, and it won't consume any memory or CPU time.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
These people are the reason that slashdot sucks now. Can't even set a file association using the simple 'open with...' interface for doing so.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
My father was in the Japanese Occupation Force and detested the Japanese til the day he died. I went to Japan to see what he was talking about, saw it, and fell in love with the place nonetheless. I learned Japanese poetry. I talked my sister through cancer with it - she said to me "my oncologist saved me but you brought light to a dark place." The finest Japanese poetry was written by Irishman, Yeats:
Climbing, falling she knew not where,
Hiding amid the cargo of a steamship,
Her knee-cap broken, that girl I declare
A beautiful lofty thing, or a thing
Heroically lost, heroically found.
No matter what disaster occurred
She stood in desperate music wound,
Wound, wound, and she made in her triumph
Where the bales and the baskets lay
No common intelligible sound
But sang, O sea-starved, hungry sea.'
That is like Windows. I took a day off work to line up and buy Windows 98SE but when Windows ME cme out I knew iit was a dead seagull. Nowadays they who stuck with Windows sit on coils of rope, their kneecaps broken, and sing a song of freedom.
I said - don't look Ethel!..., but it was too late..., she'd already looked.
This is the OEM business model. ... Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week.
This is a premium PC? Well, premium price anyways, when compared to an Apple iMac I see a higher res screen and better graphics for less. Of course, it'll also come sans all the fingerprints on the screen, since it's not a touch screen. I think that alone is worth several hundred $ in Apple's favor, or however much you value your finger should you ever try to touch my monitor. I kid, I kid... not.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Is it annoying? I guess so... I don't really get my panties in a bunch about it; I just uninstall it and then I never have to deal with it again. Basic computer literacy, really.
The thing is, when they sell to a corporate this doesn't matter. The corporation just creates their own image and drops that on every machine as standard.
The next largest market is not us techies but Joe average. Now yes, they do make money by pre installing this crapware but it also gives them an advantage. On the packaging they can show off that their machine comes preinstalled with this large list of software (highlighting various well known names). Joe average will tend to make his purchasing decision based on which machine has the largest list of features and the biggest numbers (works the same for stereos, TV's, etc). That's why all this tech comes packed with useless features that more often than not reduce the experience and performance. If you want to outsell the competition, sadly, this approach works.
This is why this trend is not going to change anytime soon.
You can win by not taking this approach (and Apple is probably the best example of this) but your product has to be well polished and typically you will be aiming for the upper market who more often than not doesn't fall for these marketing tricks.
Ryans Tutorials - A collection of technology tutorials.
I expect crapware. Blow away the OS and install from clean .isos using appropriate tools. I'll not detail it here, the internet is your friend.
OS replacement should be trivial for nearly every Slashdotter. Back in 1999 they even discussed such things in these very forums. (Now get off my lawn, though given continental drift it's probably somewhere in the Marianas Trench...)
If you don't know how, MANY nice folks on many forums offer their expertise for the reading. (Google "My Digital Life forums")
If you don't WANT to know how, Fark is that >>>> way.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
The question is - why are people buying these computers? Newegg, TigerDirect, and others sell components, online, and cheap. In an afternoon, a guy can build an equivalent computer from components, install his favorite OS, and be ready to start installing all his required software in the morning.
Why pay 100 to 1000% extra, for a compromised system?
So, maybe some slashdotters really don't understand how to turn a screwdriver. I'm sure there's kid in the neighborhood who does. Maybe your own son, daughter, niece, nephew? Give the kid fifty bucks to assemble your machine, you're still money ahead.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Right click > open with > select program and check "always use this program for this kind of file." Just so you know. And you could always, like, uninstall the Word preview if you weren't planning on using it, which would solve the problem as well.
I had a similar problem on my Mac. Fucking iTunes used to try to open every movie I made in iMovie, so then a clicked the mouse a few times and told it not to. Problem solved.
anyone read that list?
spotify was mentioned twice. minesweeper and solitaire were included.
also, all crapware from all territories appears to have been added to the same list and presented as "this is what you'll get".
consider what comes out-of-the-box on an ubuntu installation.
i'm not defending crapware at all - i hate it. but a strong case against it is not made by misrepresentation or outright lying.
Christ, the crapware isn't Microsoft's fault, it's the makers of that particular computer. This is a problem on the maker side, not on the OS side. Shit, if third party makers were able to produce Macs commercially you can bet your britches they would be loaded up with crapware, too. This whole debate is moot.
The price of the machine wasn't jacked up because of the TrialWare, but the price seems unreasonably high, given so much competition at a lower price.
The extra software gives the machine perceived value, incorrect as that may be. Lots of trialware that won't last long and makes revenues for everyone not-the-retailer.
But then, the latest loads of Ubuntu have all sorts of crazyware, albeit not in the trial form. There are legacy Unix/Linux sillyness that most consumers will never, ever touch. No one pays an OEM to put it on a machine (oh, wait, Amazon placement for search???) when Linux is installed, but most every page you access these days has some sort of ad, or tracker, or link-to-a-good-buddy.
I think the crapware complaint is over-rated.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
the big PC makers make a ton of money off those crapware distribution deals.. they make money on windows in the end, which is why you won't find a no-OS or linux PC from any of them for the same price as a windows one of the same model and specs...
i suspect windows 8 will be *worse* than earlier versions, due to having two separate user interfaces to pollute instead of just one.
I'm not sure what this has to do with Windows. There is nothing about Linux that prevents OEM's from loading software of their choosing.
And they mark up for it.
Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want is usually cheaper. But it does require work on your part, and while most of building a computer is pretty trivial some stuff (like correctly wiring a case to a mobo, or properly applying contact paste for a cooling fan) can really hold people back. Also, time and space.
The question is - why are people buying these computers? Newegg, TigerDirect, and others sell components, online, and cheap. In an afternoon, a guy can build an equivalent computer from components, install his favorite OS, and be ready to start installing all his required software in the morning.
Show me someone who can build a 1.37-inch-thick 27" touchscreen all-in-one PC "in an afternoon" and I'll show you someone who works for Acer.
With all the new system form factors coming out, I highly doubt you're going to see many classic, slapped-together tower PCs in people's homes in the near future.
Breakfast served all day!
Actually I got a new Dell (windows 7 and no UEFI) and it didn't come with that much crap. McAfee 15 month trial, some disk-in-the-cloud for a year, and Dell utilities. I don't think I've seen a desktop prepopulated with lots of crapware and url links for over a decade.
Linux has package management. That makes it simple to remove crapware, and therefore less profitable to add it.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
If you're talking about QuickTime for Windows, there's a big difference between that and the QuickTime that comes with Mac OS X in terms of the things you describe.
Breakfast served all day!
Local jobber here in Oz - Scorptec - builds a lot of pc's for people, and you can build your system from components off their web page, and they'll match components and build it for you without charging an arm and a leg. They put a nice fast games machine together for me. I said "No crapware please" and all I got was a nod and -- no crapware. Zero trouble from the build.
It pays to know a good local outfit.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
I guess you've answered my question. If you want the latest consumer goody, and appearance is more important than performance or security, then you're stuck with whatever the vendors are offering.
If you need a secure, reliable, stable system, and you don't care very much that it looks obsolete, then you can knock together a damned good tower at a fraction of the cost that you're going to pay for the vendor's comparable version.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
And they mark up for it.
Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want is usually cheaper. But it does require work on your part, and while most of building a computer is pretty trivial some stuff (like correctly wiring a case to a mobo, or properly applying contact paste for a cooling fan) can really hold people back. Also, time and space.
Not really. It's hard to find as cheap parts that they use in the pre-built stuff. A quick look at NewEgg shows a Windows 7 mini-tower, AMD dual core x64, 4GB RAM, 320GB HD, AMD Radeon HD, integrated sound card, gigabit Ethernet, and 150W power supply for $229. Even if not a Cyber Monday price, picking the cheapest of everything quickly surpasses a pre-built PC these days. And for me it's difficult to pick the cheapest of every component.
I would like to differentiate where the problem is, and provide suggestions on how people can avoid this problem.
This is a problem with buying from certain manufacturers/retailers who add bloatware. Simply don't support this practice with your purchases. It has nothing to do with the OS. Linux and Android are just as susceptible to this if not more since the OS is open source, such as when wireless providers modify the Android OS itself(rather than simply adding applications) which can cripple the OS with bloated features, instability, or poorly designed UI. In this case you can't simply uninstall an app to undo the problem, but usually must flash the device. I'm not saying the OS being open source is a bad thing; I'm just pointing out how some carriers abuse this.
Examples of how to avoid bloatware(for phones or computers).
Phones:
-Only buy phones which come with the stock/vanilla Android OS. I personally prefer the Nexus devices for this reason. Additionally, these devices usually will have OS updates available earlier than others.
-If your phone does have a lot of bloatware, something like Cyanogen mod(if supported on your phone) can give you a OS with less bloat and more freedom. I actually flashed my Nexus One with Cyanogen and freed up alot of internal memory. Even my stock Nexus One had slowly become bloated with apps that I didn't need over time like Twitter, which came along with OS updates and could not be moved off internal storage or uninstalled. I went from 5 mb free internal storage(which is a serious problem) to 100 mb free internal storage.
Computers:
-Sometimes you can call sales and request that you get only the stock OS on your computer or laptop. I know businesses have been able to request Dell laptops be provided this way.
-Build your own computer or buy barebone, and load the stock OS yourself.
-Take note of bloatware when using other's computers, or go to a store where the model is setup and you can test drive. Take note of which manufacturers have the most OEM bloatware. If you are used to helping other's with their computers, it is usually pretty obvious what apps are things they didn't install, and are bloatware.
-Be wary of a computer that advertises lots of free software. If it is really full version software, then you are paying for its cost somewhere in the price of the computer. Better to buy a computer without this hidden cost, and use the savings to buy the software that you pick out(instead of the OEM's choices). If it is only trial software, then maybe the computer is a very tiny bit cheaper as a result, and your time is probably worth more than the trouble of dealing with the bloatware and "Trial Expired" popups. So either way, avoid bundled software. I don't even like bundled antivirus.
Windows 8 isn't throttled with crapware. Certain vendor PCs are throttled with crapware.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
I ordered one recently too, they now have a "none" selection for the McAfee. So you can buy it, get the trial, or not have it at all. There was very little else installed outside of the OS and the utilities included with the hardware (usable Bluray software, nvidia stuff, etc).
Huh? Building your own costs more. OEMs get huge volume discounts on hardware and software.
For a dplicate machine, yes but onl in the lower end. (Sry typos slow phone) For what you actually want, absolutely not.
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
I wanted to build my last system bad. I could not justify with my wife. I got an Asus anyway at BestBuy but I reformatted the disk with an OEm pirated build but put the key in that way for a fresh install.
http://saveie6.com/
The kicker is the fact that any parts you throw together in some frankenbox are bound to be superior to what an OEM will try to sell you. This is partially due to you actually knowing what's in the box and the fact that franken-parts are geared towards people who know what they are doing.
"huge volume discounts" are mostly on the software YOU DON'T WANT.
As far as the rest goes: you're probably better off with a clean copy anyways ( system builder license).
Sometimes you get what you pay for and the cost of an OEM copy of Windows is just the cost of having a PC that's not full of crapulence.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
most people are NOT DIY'ers
to build your own, you need to keep tabs on computer hardware, install your own OS, and keep track of warantee on a dozen or so parts.
Then you have to fix it when it breaks.
Fine for me. I know far far far more, than anyone who works at level 1 help desk would ever learn in his life, this isn't everyone. Most people WANT that help desk.(part of the cost).
You also get one point of contact for warrantee. If ANYTHING breaks, they fix it. How the fuck would a n00b know a CPU/motherboard problem from a HD problem?
Then there is OS installs. Most people want to plug it in, and have it work. A prior generation preffered laptops to desktops because they couldn't figure out which holes to plug things in. Expect them to navigate a windows installer?
Fuck no. After making the mistake of building PCs for friends and family, I tell anyone who's not tech savy to just buy a computer that comes assembled, with warrantee, and tech support.(those guys don't get paid enough for doing that, an extra $200 on the tag to answer stupid n00b questions for two years), If anyone wants me to build them a PC, today its $50 on top of parts for assemble and test, and another $200, for 2 years of being able to call me on the phone and answer your stupid n00b questions.
when you buy a PC in the store, your not paying for the parts, your paying for the service.
You also have to buy into the idea that Windows can be 'cleaned'. It's kind of like believing that you can trust your system after a virus infection. It just needs to be wiped and rebuilt regardless.
THAT is not going to be faster than doing Linux from scratch.
The idea that you can "clean windows" is just the kind of wishful thinking that causes Internet crippling malware outbreaks.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
If you want to use Windows you're often stuck with a choice between using the OEM crapware installation or paying for a new retail copy of Windows. Whereas on Linux a clean reinstall is generally free.
You will not come out ahead on a "cheapest of everything" PC doing it yourself - and it won't work when you put it together. You can very well come out ahead building a "workstation" - in the $1k-2k range, you generally get more for your budget, and especially better reliability, by picking top-quality parts yourself (and avoiding the very fastest anything).
You'll never built a cheaper Walmart PC than Walmart - but then, who would want such a thing?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I know this is "computing myths of the 90s" month on /., but that's particularly old school.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Windows also has package management - has for many years. Crapware doesn't play by the rules.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Building your own only works for desktops.
Non-geeks exclusively buy laptops.
Son, I've been married for a while now. The trick with the wife is to buy what you want and then worry about it later.
Which wife is it now - your second or your third?
#DeleteChrome
maybe some slashdotters really don't understand how to turn a screwdriver.
There are actually some people in the world who don't read slashdot, and I think there are enough of them to establish a market for ready built computers.
Also, ever tried building a laptop? Unfortunately, it's not that easy to find parts that fit together as easily as with minitowers. Especially if you want a sleek ultrabook. And there are many people who are not interested in non-portable computers.
(For the record, I have built my own computers in the past, but now I'm a laptop only user due to my work.)
This hits the nail right on the head. Unfortunately, it's the corporate marketers that dictate what's cool, and home-built high-performance machines with clean installs of non-proprietary operating systems and zero crapware/malware ain't it.
Which wife is it now - your second or your third?
If I could like you this comment like Fabebook I would,
In all honesty the only good thing about this boring underclocked CPU/board is that I can get a replacement when needed if it has shit capacitors and looks kind of cool with the blue LED lights that says ASUS. There are worse things in life.
http://saveie6.com/
You lost me at Metro being "clean and spiffy," but you're right otherwise. I give it one or two years before some bright bulb dreams up an OS or even hardware to force feed advertising to the user, all the while claiming it reduces costs... Consoles already do.
I rooted my Optimus V for that very reason. The internal storage was full from just a handful of apps installed by me. It got to the point where apps could no longer update. Someone was nice enough to include all the rooting tools in a zipfile with a batch file to walk you through. After that get Titanium Backup and uninstall what you want. Just be careful because some apps are needed by the OS.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Dual core AMD x64 processor: $58. Hard drive: $59. MB: $59 with integrated AMD Radeon HD and all the extras (didn't see gig-E or USB3.0 in the first example, but you can shop around). 4GB ram: $19 (yeah, ram is that cheap). 250W PSU (couldn't even find 150W): $20. Case: $15. Total: $230 USD, right now. And that is bottom-end components, if you want anything higher, you start getting cheaper than the mass-produced stuff. This took me 1-2 minutes to find, if I shopped around I could maybe push it a bit cheaper (of course, that is with sales, but that works in your advantage since you can pick up each component separately or in combos for the best prices).
And I'm not even using any combo deals, which could drop the price a few dollars. Of course, you don't get Windows for that price, but you don't get the shovel-ware crap, either, plus you get to choose exactly what components you want to maximize without massive markups. Most of the components are likely going to be junk at that price... but the whole computer is junk at that pre-built price.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
Home Built PCs tend to follow a simple formula if you're jinxed and don't know what the hell you're doing.
Really, that's pure FUD. First, if you can't properly diagnose hardware, what the hell are you doing building a computer yourself? Second, that only happens when you don't properly select your components. The only things you shouldn't skimp on are memory modules and the PSU. Especially the PSU. Funnily, that's exactly where some of the popular manufacturers cut costs, since they can spend the same amount of money on an i3-based machine with a good PSU or an i5-based machine with a crappy PSU. Since they "hey, it's an i5" is way better advertising than "hey, it has a good part that you probably never heard of and therefore don't care about", they all go for the i5 and then you're possibly fucked on the long term because almost every part of your PC is being fed incorrect voltages (and that can be insanely hard to diagnose at home if you don't know what you're looking for). They also tend to invest as little in cooling as possible, so at most you get an extra fan. Build correctly and you can do way, way better than any manufacturer. After all, they must pay their employees and profit from sales, and no amount of black magic will let them do it while charging you as much as the cost of the components.
It works: http://the-pc-decrapifier.en.softonic.com/
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
I think that depends on one's definition of cool.
What's cool to me is dictated by ... me.
I find it works out better for everyone that way.
You can get a laptop built to your specs with vendors like Pioneer. http://pioneercomputers.com.au/products/categories.asp?c1=3. They used to give you the option of Ubuntu pre-installed, but even now you can avoid the Microsoft tax by not selecting an OS.
To my mind, this is how all laptops should be offered.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Only because at the lowest end they can get the OEM windows so cheap (which I would immediately wipe anyway).
Below would be a better option (for me) than the one you're referring to which is an AMD E-350 (Intel Atom comparable).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103873
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130630
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148538
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811353007
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817822006
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148766
Total: 191.95
No, it doesn't include a Windows OS license, which I would be wasting money on anyway, and would be faster.
Vizio. Beautiful PCs with all the crapware removed. It's the only thing I recommend for anyone who wants a prebuilt PC.
Because Symantec and McAfee are businesses whose goal is to make money, regardless of how relevant they are. Theyre actually quite good at what they do, your mistake is thinking that "what they do" is to provide solutions.
computing myths? windows does hardware checks to make sure that it god forbid, has been moved between computers?, still contains drm for media, and requires install keys a form of drm for the os? still has a habit of only patching security wholes that they absolutely have to? or say that the whole will be patched in the next version instead of fixing the problems? have they been getting better about security yes but they are far from the security level of you average linux desktop.
myth? i think not.
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
you don't want a $20 PSU in any system.
That is the one of the worst places to cheap out and lot's of the low end Walmart PC do have shit PSU's in them.
To be honest, it's not worth anyone's time putting together a budget PC for themselves, in purely financial terms - they'll end up with a budget PC, and not have saved much, if any money. Budget PCs are almost disposable now. 1 month of 20 a day cigarettes costs about as much as a budget PC where I live (UK).
Building your own is more an ethos, rather than a saving money strategy. I've built my own for years, and saved a little money doing it. I've also, and more importantly IMO (getting back to the original point of the thread) avoided crapware. I hate it with a passion, and won't have it on my PC.
My system is not the best... but until yesterday (power cut) I had 2100 hours uptime. After that 2100 hours, and the obviously poor shutdown... I booted to workable desktop within 1 minute without a hitch. This is with Vista.
This is why I make my own PCs, and get the operating systems separately. The headaches, time, and irritation I avoid is worth more to me than the initial time it takes to build it.... That and the fact I like building a new PC, too.
Back in 07 when i bought this computer from Dell, I really wanted to build my own. I had even priced what I wanted and it would cost me around $800. Sadly, the pc I was using at the time was having random hardware failures, and as I had already spent $200 replacing bits of a 5yr old box, I figured it was time for a whole new box.
The thing was, Dell extended me $1500 in credit. So I could have waited for months, buying a piece here and there as I could afford it, or I could buy a pre-built from Dell and get it right then.
I think that is the reason most people buy the pre-built systems, they want a whole system that works out of the box, right then. And a lot of the major manufacturers offer lines of credit.
I find it interesting is that every statement like this excludes (or more frequently, omits) the cost ($80-100 or higher) of a legal Windows installation. Most people run Windows, and prefer it to be legal. Then you have to tack on labor - even if you only count active work to build it, it still takes a fair amount of time. Combine that with the illusion of support and warranty, and those $300 PCs (probably closer to the $260 ones) are a more attractive option for most people.
Plus, I've seen a lot of self-built PCs. Biostar boards, Apex (or worse) PSUs, unbranded RAM, and no testing. Almost all would've gotten a better product if they'd just bought something off the shelf- even Acer makes better systems than that. Granted, I've seen DIY systems with ASUS/Gigabyte/etc, but those tend to be even more expensive.
The only market segment where it makes financial sense is the high-end of the market. All major OEMs have razor-thin profit margins on the low-end. They make their real money on the high-end. When you get to the $1000 range, you can build a substantially better machine for a lower price, Windows and all.
I helped my brother pick out a new computer this weekend. After looking at the prices of PCs in his range ($350), I decided that building him a system would be far more cost effective. Note I didn't say cheaper--it wound up being $50 more--but it's a pretty decent system all the same, and with specs significantly better than the pre-built he was looking at.
When I compare my PC to similar pre-built models, I find that the pre-builts tend to cost $800 more, and with worse hardware.
Then again, maybe my local stores just suck.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
This remains much of my extended family.
Bog-standard Windows PCs at big-box store. One says "Includes over 50 programs and supports millions of Windows applications" on the box. The other says "Windows PC" on the box.
Uncle no-name: "Well, I'll take this one because it includes tons of software and is compatible with millions of programs. The other one isn't."
Me: "Those programs are all worthless, and the other one supports just as much software. They're both Windows PCs."
Uncle no-name: "Hey, free is free. And if the other one really could support millions of programs, they would have put it on the box. That's an important feature! You're so gullible, no wonder the younger generation is gets such bad value out of everything."
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Do you know anyone who actually uses "Windows Media" with drm?
I don't.
People use MP3s, mp4s, avis, and mkv files. Even if hey don;t KNOW it.
Who buys music in WMA format with DRM?
Anyone? Maybe a few, but not the vast majority of Windows users.
On the other hand, what percentage of Apple users use media with Apple DRM?
ALL of them.
This space available.
I do a clean install after I buy a PC. For windows 7 I had to do the following.
1. Get all the drivers from the OEM for the specific model.
2. Get the REAL windows product key (& OEM cert) of your pc. Google is your friend here.
3. Get a Retail windows copy from MSDN or some other legit site.
4. Format the PC, install windows and use slmgr tool to activate it.
5. Now install all the drivers & you are good to go.
No crapware now & it saves me disk space that the OEMs manage to steal in the name of recovery partition.
I have an inkling that Microsoft/OEMs will make the process more onerous going forward but I believe its worth the pain.
he's obviously never heard the age old (and oh so true) saying "happy wife, happy life"
i'm sure there are husbands that feel the need to "be the man" and "wear the pants", but they really are the idiots of the married world, and will often be the ones that end up a multiple divorcee.
Yes, I'm serious. But if my comment is as moronic as you seem to think it is, maybe you can actually help me. I have a couple of computers here which came with OEM crapware Windows and no clean install media (only the option to create crapware recovery discs). How do I get a free, legal, clean Windows installation?
Do price it out...
I very much doubt that Dell or HP offer systems that have top end graphics cards at prices you could build yourself, buying retail parts. That's not extremely specific, that's what a whole host of people use their PC's for, that's gaming. People buy these cards. Dell and HP don't put them in their machines, because they're expensive.
If someone wants to build or buy a gaming rig, you're either spending top dollar or building your own. There's no real in between.
Firstly, even now processor speed (I'm not talking just Ghz) matters way more than the number of cores in gaming - there are still basically no games that utilise more than 2 cores effectively. Many "gaming" rigs feature slower multicore processors.
Secondly, there are lots of cheap (or at least cheaper) motherboards out there which are as quick as the expensive ones. By the same manufacturers. Sold rigs always use high end ones you don't need.
Thirdly, expensive high speed RAM that a lot of "gaming" systems use actually has worse latency than cheap slower RAM. In many cases, the latency is more important than than the outright speed.
Fourthly, many of these gaming systems throw in old SSDs, or no SSD at all. Not all SSDs are the same, and these systems generally put crap ones in.. I've never used them, but the next system I buy they will be first. Currently I run 2 striped SATA drives, which are quick enough for me most of the time.
I've just installed Skyrim on my ancient (comparatively) system, and it thinks I should play on high graphical settings, 1920*1200, 8AA, 8AF, most things on. This is a relatively inexpensive about 5 year old system, the only upgrade being a new graphics card a year or two ago (460gtx*).
*This is, however, about the quickest graphics card you should put in my motherboard, which is only PCI-E 1. Quicker cards than this will be limited by the older interface. My next upgrade is going to be an entirely new system.
Every Windows box ships with a key on the side of it that you can use with an OEM Windows disk to put a fresh install on...
Yes, building your own is cheaper if your time is worthless.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Has something changed there? Because in the past Microsoft has been quite clear that the OEM license on your machine does not permit you to download a retail copy from wherever you want to install it, and being that the only Windows CD that comes with most machines is the restore CD (which is loaded with all the garbage) I'd love to hear how exactly you are supposed to legally acquire a clean copy of Windows to install on that machine that came with the OEM version on a restore CD (not an install CD)
All the major OEMs are idiots who decided, at some point, that marketing mattered more than the hardware they put in the machines themselves. They're just getting their own desserts in that regard. I mean, the average consumer just has never been taught that a 5400 RPM HD is a giant bottleneck, and can't tell the difference between an OEM that offers one with and without -> they see machines purely as appliances, something to buy and never upgrade. And surprise, OEMs worked to maintain that image -> they shipped 'smaller' cases with no upgradability, custom PSUs, and underpowered heatsinks. They confirmed their customer's bias, which is their own fault...oh, and look, they're doing the same in the Smartphone world! Hands up, how many people have or have had a phone which, while being capable of running ICS, is still stuck on 2.2 or 2.3? How many people fault Google for going nuclear over this, and buying part of Motorola to 'fix' the problem? These people save a few bucks in the short term, and destroy the companies they are working for in the long term. They have no understanding of planning, or maintaining a certain level of brand / quality among their customers. It's just pump and dump: pump a product up (usually done before they are hired), with rave reviews and good hardware, then gut the hardware / fire the engineers, then outsource it all overseas, and cash in as people continue buying the next version of the product, unaware that the quality has gone to shit -> what's it matter? In six months, the people in charge of that Titanic will be piloting another company into an iceberg, while the old one is up on the blocks (all the capital has been spent, the talent gone, and no one wants to buy from them even with special cut-rate deals).
HP? Hands up, who here, having dealt with Compaq for any number of years towards its end, thought that that merger was a good idea? Anyone? See, no one. Compaq needed to die, to prevent spreading the plague to others. Instead, someone arranged a marriage; how trite.
The major OEMs want to save themselves? Fire the morons; if Marketing is telling the techs what to build, you're in for a world of hurt (remember, Marketing would be happy selling hot dogs on a corner somewhere if a customer survey said that it was the next big thing). Then spend the next 5 years actually listening to your techs about your build quality, and maybe you will survive. You'll need to combat brand fatigue, where all your customers are wary of whether or not you are just getting lucky with the latest builds, or if you have actually changed. It will take 5 years to clear out everyone's current beliefs about you and your quality, there is no rushing that. You're going to need to 'lift the brand,' not reinvent it. You'll have to convince your customers, through proof, that you are not following Apple, that you are where they want to be, and hate themselves for not being there right now. Stop trying to guess where Apple is going next; you're not them, you have different advantages, and you do not want to be them. Give the whole form factor thing a miss, as the smaller form factors tend to have lower margins (or as it is commonly known as "Why are we shipping more products than before, but our profits are in the tank?"). And there is nothing wrong with having money on the books if you haven't decided what to do with it yet: there is, and I repeat, there is, nothing wrong with having $2B laying around in the company coffers if you don't see anything worth investing in. I know, Wall St. hates that, as does your Econ professor, but guess what? There are a lot of shit investments out there, and it takes a long time to see if one is worth purchasing; buying shit investments just to get rid of the extra money / please the Street will doom your company. And once again, there is nothing wrong with issuing a one-time Dividend to shut them up, if they get too loud.
I am John Hurt.
Parts fail, and often they are nearly impossible to diagnose exactly what the problem is.
Actually most teenagers can diagnose what the problem is. Hell your earlier post is a clear indication you should not be part of the computer building industry. Suspecting RAM and then not running some simple products that test the RAM is a hellova newbie mistake. I don't know of anyone who's ever gone through what you suggest. There are test suits for bloody everything these days.
Also last two times my sister's Dell laptop broke the vendor came out and did exactly what you said they don't do. They came to the house and swapped out the wifi card, and then next time the monitor, both broke because pre-built system are made out of cheap crap components.
You say you hate crapware and yet you're running Vista?
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
I have never, ever, in all my life spent $2k on parts for a high-end PC.
Then you're just not old enough! I remember 64K of memory costing well up to $100k (IBM System/3). I remember $10k hard drives. I remember $2k monitors... and you guys are complaining about $50 here or there for multi-gigabyte multi-gigahertz machines with terrabyte storage. Sigh. But you want to know the funniest thing? The way the computer industry is going, you are about to lose everything and you will never even realize what you had... until yeah, your devices won't be worth more than a couple bucks because they're no longer your tools, they're just devices used to spy on you in exchange for email, a very expensive phone service and angry birds.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
You're absolutely right when it comes to component cost. However, you don't have the full cost unless the purchaser regards their time as completely devoid of worth.
My time is valuable. I don't want to spend half a day figuring out how a heat sink retention clip works, putting the motherboard studs in the right place, but not that one hole that isn't on the board that will short it, finding out that the cheap shitbox case has 1/4 inch less clearance than it needs to for this particular CPU cooler so I have to run back to the store which is 25 minutes away, etc.
I'd rather work with the computer, than work on the computer. But then again, that's why I use a Mac Pro.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Windows has package management? Oh really? So which package is the MSHTML engine in, so I can rip it out. Oh, and while I'm at it, how about ripping out the entire Win32 subsystem and just leaving a CMD line? Sysinternals can do it. Debian can do it using the package management system. Linux packages *everything* - typically giving granularity of tens of thousands of packages. Windows? Maybe tens, if you're lucky. BTW, I liked the XPlite tool that did give some more package control over the system, is there anything like that for Win7?
Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
Yes, yes, and yes - and yes again!
The Telco's are pushing the stuff you're talking about, and people just run out and buy it.
My computer isn't as fast, or as nice, as some of the guys here are talking about. I can't afford to drop two grand on computer components. In fact, I recycle some of my components, only replacing them if/when they crap out. A DVD writer lasts me a long, long time - the one in the wife's current machine is a decade old.
Despite my relatively old, relatively crappy hardware - the machine is mine, mine, all mine. No crapware, no spyware, no bots, not trojans, almost no advertising, no trackware, I never see a popup, popunder, popout, or even Popeye.
And, since I don't run anything from Symantec or their competition, all my CPU cycles are mine.
It's adequate to play the games I like to play, while I have more browser windows open than I know what to do with, and I can do real work at the same time.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Makes you wonder if the system speed / battery life / HD throughput / graphics performance / etc system ratings are given BEFORE or AFTER crapware installation on the initial release systems.
Also, how do the initial system performance ratings compare in reality to the "released a week later with updated [crapware]" units?
Gee, I wonder. I wonder. :-)
One real problem on Windows nowadays is the number of things running in the background just to check for updates. A typical PC is likely to have the Adobe Flash updater, the Oracle Java updater, the Apple QuickTime updater, the updater for the user's choice of browser (Firefox and/or Chrome), an antivirus updater, a vendor-specific updater, and many more. All of these chew up memory and CPU time; not a lot for each one but collectively they add up. The model used by Linux distributions is much better. You have ONE updater that can draw from all the software repositories (it can add repos for programs that don't use the official repository) and you're done. Much cleaner. Microsoft needs to step up to the table with a comparable solution; Windows Update is halfway there but it doesn't cover most non-Microsoft applications or some device drivers.
When something goes wrong with that system, however, he's going to be knocking on your door to fix it, not a system vendor's. If it smokes and loses his PR0N^H^H^H^Hdata the blame will be on you, not on Dell/Apple/Asus/etc. Don't underestimate the costs there.