In a Symbolic Shift, IBM's India Workforce Likely Exceeds That In US

dcblogs writes "IBM has 112,000 employees in India, up from 6,000 in 2002, with an average wage of about $17,000, according to an internal company document. That wage level may seem shockingly low to U.S. IT workers, but it is in alignment with IT wages in India.The Everest Group said the annual wages generally in India for a software engineer range from $8,000 to $10,000; for a senior software engineer, $12,000 to $15,000, and between $18,000 and $20,000 for a team lead. A project manager may make as much as $31,000. IBM employs about 430,000 globally. According to the Alliance at IBM, the U.S. staff is at about 92,000. It was at 121,000 at the end of 2007, and more in previous years. It has been widely expected over the past year or two that IBM's India workforce was on track to exceed its U.S. workforce, if it hadn't exceeded it already."

Comments

What happems

[colinrichardday]

What happens when corporations can no longer exploit global wage differences?

Re:What happems

[h4rr4r]

What does that matter?
By then we will think $17k/year is a good wage.

Re:What happems

[colinrichardday]

But if most people make $17k/year, how are corporations going to threaten workers with outsourcing?

Re:What happems

[bobthesungeek76036]

And who will IBM sell computers to when everyone is making $17K/year???

Re:What happems

[MyLongNickName]

It will be similar to the events that happened in the United States. Basically, we used to have a wild difference in median incomes by state. There is still quite a difference, but nothing like existed before the interstate highway system. State importance decreased and more people viewed their identity in terms of country than state.

I see the same thing happening on a global scale. There will be rich countries and poor. Folks in the US are going to have to get used to not being the prima donna by default. Other countries will get much richer. We'll get a much more stable world, and one where country doesn't matter as much as it does today.

Is it painful? yes. Will there be losers? Yes. But I think there will be many more winners than losers.

Re:What happems

[ranton]

Just take a look at manufacturing jobs that have stayed in the United States to see the result of manufacturing done in an area with high wages. [Almost] Everything is done by robotics. The only reason they use less robotics in third world and developing countries is because their labor is still cheaper than machines. Robotics keeps improving while global wages keep equalizing, and at some point the use of robotics will be even cheaper than cheap labor is today.

Developing countries know they need to take advantage of this period in time, and use the money they are funneling from developed countries to improve their workforce so they can perform more skilled labor once this shift takes place. The US and other developed countries took advantage of the 1900s to do the same thing, and developing country's have much less time to advance than we did (but they have the advantage of riding our coattails). Unskilled laborers making decent wages will be a thing of the past on a global scale in the near future, just like what is happening in the US right now.

Re:What happems

[Creepy]

Actually, we've seen some of that at my job - in India we either get job attrition or requesting raises. This has caused a lot of jobs to be outsourced again, to China, where we get 4-5 workers for each US worker instead of 3-4. And the best part about it is the US was paying us to do it when US employees get replaced. Not sure about the current situation, as my company is now owned by Germans (we probably don't get as much US help to outsource anymore).

Re:What happems

[zrelativity]

I have never really understood why many Americans are so hostile to unionization. There appears to be decades of brainwashing in action and mythos regarding correlation between hardwork and financial success.

Re:What happems

[h4rr4r]

The only Class Warfare in the USA is the rich against the poor. The thing is they are winning too. All the while accusing any poor who dares speak up of being involved in jealously based class warfare.

If you want evidence you need only look at the continual lowering of tax rates at the top of the scale, the shrinking real wages, and the jobless recovery.

Re:What happems

[whitroth]

Brainwashing. 60 years or so of brainwashing, with it kicking in, seriously, in the late seventies. Then the active, overt support of the Republicans - Reagan's destruction of the Air Traffic Controllers' union was the opening assult. There's also offshoring....

Most Americans have become suckers: those that aren't overwhelmingly feel isolated, and as though "they're the only one". There's only a few of us who have any real "enlightened self-interest", though I think a lot more would go union if they were given a real chance.

We also need more socialists back in the unions, to make them honest again. After McCarthy & co chased them out in the fifties, some, like the Teamsters, were taken over for decades by the Mob; the rest, cowed, dropped all the social demands, and closed down to cover only working conditions, wages, and employee benefits, and started acting like the midieval guilds, whose purpose was to keep more people *out* of the busines.

          mark

Re:What happems

[QRDeNameland]

I have never really understood why many Americans are so hostile to unionization. There appears to be decades of brainwashing in action and mythos regarding correlation between hardwork and financial success.

I think there's more to it than that. The sad fact is that in way too many cases, US unions became little more than protection rackets, where in order to get anything done one had to accept high levels of incompetency, featherbedding and lollygagging, not to mention instances of leadership by mob goons. Even at the height of unionization in the US, the majority of the workforce was non-unionized, and what they saw of organized labor did not generate much sympathy.

Myself, I am quite sympathetic to the idea of workers organizing for greater leverage with their employers; however, every experience in my working life I ever had that brushed up against unions gave me the impression that they rarely brought any value to the table for anyone but them. It's a common perception, and perhaps that view is colored by brainwashing and mythology but there is more than a grain of truth to it.

Or as a wiser man than I put it:

Once upon a time the idea was good
If only they'd a done what they said they would
It ain't no better, they's makin' it worse
The labor movement's got the mafia curse

Frank Zappa - "Stick Together"

Re:What happems

[Wansu]

  Look at Hostess...the company was forced to close its doors and go bankrupt. The unions would NOT negotiate or budge enough on their demands to allow the company to continue. Rather than the unions negotiate...they stood their ground, forced the company into bankruptcy, and ALL jobs with them are now gone forever.

Whoa up there. Hostess went through 2 bankruptcies and 6 CEOs in the past decade. They went on an acquisition spree, bought a load of their own stock and went in debt to do it. Then they laid off half their people. The union agreed to big concessions at each step along the way. During the second bankruptcy, Hostess promised to modernize their plants. Instead, they lined the pockets of the CEOs and board. The union realized the company was being run into the ground and dug in.

  Much of what the union rightly worked for in the early days...working conditions, hours..etc...were long ago accomplished and codified into employment laws.

Those laws can be changed.

IBM

[UncleWilly]

India Business Machines!

So explain the Costco story then?

[SmallFurryCreature]

If high wages are such a problem, how come Costco can do it?

Wallstreet doesn't like it, they want Costco to lower the wages to the minimum to maximize short-term profits because just growing and making a decent profit ain't enough for shareholders... except Costco shares have gone up despite warnings from Wallstreet.

Wallstreet loves to squeeze everything to generate the max profit for shareholders this quarter... next quarter? They will will find another company to squeeze.

IBM can well outsource all the work but what happens to the knowledge? What stops an Indian company hiring IBM workers and creating Indian Business Machines? That is after all what Japan did with car production? First you make the parts, then you put the parts together and then you make your own parts and put them together and how is Detroit doing again?

Americans love blaming unions but North-West european countries (UK does not count) have strong unions and no problems with them. The Dutch Polder model was widely praised until right-wing POLITICIANS destroyed it, much to the chagrin of the supposed right wing business owners who just want to make a deal they can count them even if it costs a bit because uncertainty is WORSE for business then knowing a deal is going to cost you a fraction of a percent more in salaries.

The US needs to get over its love for Wallstreet, it is a leech and NOT a job creator.

You know the really funny thing? In Season 22 of the Simpsons we learn that he makes 70k a year... yet he is often shown in the series as a "poor" man who can't afford health care... 70k that is what its writers consider a low wage on which you can barely survive and are always struggling.

It shows you just how big the divide is. Wallmart workers make 24k a year if they are lucky. Costco make 50k. Both companies turn a profit. Which one do you shop at?

Re:News flash, US

[HarrySquatter]

As opposed to the CEO who pulls in $1.5 million after her pay doubled along with her $3.5 million cash incentive target? Maybe she should be taking a paycut first?

Re:Now its Indian Business Machines

[slim]

The I always stood for "international".

When I worked for IBM UK, I collaborated with colleagues in the USA, Canada, Japan, India, mainland Europe...

Re:News flash, US

[afidel]

The median wage in NYC is $35k, anyone who looks down on 230% of the median wage is an entitled fool.

Beware of India's Coders

[scorp1us]

By decree, we are ordered to use outsourced programming. Our core competencies are seen by our company as industry specific and coding talent is seen as general talent, like a secretary. So we end up outsourcing a lot to a firm in India.

And what we got was crap. Now the fault is not entirely theirs. But in speaking in areas where they are at fault... The code is crap. I am in charge of audting the code we get back from them and it is mind boggling bad. To understand this more, I inquired to what schooling the "engineers" had gone through. It was about trade-school level, above high school but AA degree at most, which is not sufficient given the liabilities in our industry. Still 5 coders for the price of one domestically should still have some benefit? Well a lot of that got eaten away by the QA procedures that had to be put in place. Now the code we get is tolerable, and the Indian business is on track to (if they take additional clients) become an actual Indian Business Machines. Still there are enormous challenges. After going through all the effort we did to get usable code form the relationship, I'd rather have just hired a couple domestic coders. But we would not have the QA team that they now do. True, we would not have needed it, but now that it exists it is reusable. I am not allowed to see how much internal strife there is, I only get to see what their approved output (after QA) is so I don't know how much churn there is. What I do know is 5 $20k Indians still do not equal one $100k domestic engineer.

Unless your company can weather a rocky start of a relationship like this (who can these days, especially when things are outsourced to be done faster) I don't recommend outsourcing. We still won't let them in our core code base because we need expert code, but they are free to write extensions to the core.

Re:Yes - maybe.

[MyLongNickName]

But, in the US, our living standards have been decreasing for over a decade.

Yup. Basically we don't invest in our infrastructure, spend idiotically on wars instead of on our own people and expect our lifestyle to stay the same. We deemphasize education, performing below our peer group and expect our lifestyle to stay the same. I'd argue that the fact our lifestyle is dropping is proof that globalization is working as it should.

We have real problems in the United States that were masked by the fact that we were the world superpower and came out of WW II relatively unscathed. Global competition is showing that we have some things to fix.

Re:Product Quality change?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you, I am an Indian, worked with IBM on a global team, and was not involved in service delivery. But I don't fully agree.

The Indian education system is geared towards knowledge assimilation, not application of concepts. Therefore, you will find people who can rattle off the concepts, but cannot creatively use them. Also, it's also important to understand the business and social context of technology, and not just the spec list to really get to a point where you begin contributing into the next wave of what will be adopted into the mainstream.

What I don't really agree with is the statement around nights up leading to patchwork, since it generalizes everybody's individual capabilities into the same bucket.

As for the critiques, I have seen American IBM workers that are:

1. Not willing to take up a responsibility that does not fall into their core mainstream. Read - not willing to take a risk unless it means a career move. At least Indians are willing to learn. And if the quality of work is so low, then it's because the American guys were not willing to take a risk and learn something new, so new hiring would need to happen.
2. "It's 6 'o clock EST and I'm going home. I don't care how important your deadline is, I've got other things to do" - Indian peers are far more accommodating
3. "I don't care about scheduling calls at 2 AM your time because I know you are cheap labor willing to be exploited" (actually most of us are, because you can't afford a house, car, family, life and any semblance of a vacation expense on an Indian salary with a single breadwinner for the family, so we try really hard not to screw up)

The rate of interest for a home loan here is around 11%, the bank does not give you more than 80%, the rate of interest of a personal loan is around 21% (including all components that you pay) - contrast that with your housing market. In the current market here, the property rates are around $90 a sq.ft. A simple calculation will tell you that someone making $17000 simply cannot afford to buy a 900 sq. ft house here anymore. 900 sq. ft is a pigeonhole compared to the houses you live in. And that is the state of the relatively more skilled people in the Indian workforce. Do you blame us for trying hard to please our employer? That is the reason we work nights, and take risks to learn new stuff. At least we're willing to "ramp up"

For a parent to send their sons and daughters to even an average institution (read not Yale) means their entire life's savings. I didn't have lab access to a DSO in my college, so I improvised with pspice - some of my peers were not so resourceul, maybe you refer to them when you talk about lack of concepts. And you are right. RTFM is key - not a lot of Indians do that (they try the RTFppt route, but ppts don't really say that much).

There are far too many people here, too much competition, and too few avenues to succeed. You guys don't know how easy it has been for you so far. Shouldn't blame the world economy for catching up.