In the World of Big Stuff, the US Still Rules

westlake writes "From Peoria, the WSJ a look at the giant trucks manufactured by Komatsu and Caterpillar. 'In certain areas — notably aircraft, industrial engines, excavators and railway and mining equipment — the U.S. exports far more than it imports. These industries produce relatively small numbers of very expensive goods, requiring specialized technology and labor. Their competitive advantage rests partly on expertise built by U.S. companies in making durable, high-tech weaponry and other equipment for the military — frequently applicable to other products.' It may surprise you to learn that Komatsu doesn't employee a single industrial robot. The quality of workmanship simply isn't there where it is needed."

Comments

surely, you're joking

[ThorGod]

Look, we're still in the days of "It's best if it says Made in USA" on it. I've witnessed it, anecdotally *all the way*, first-hand. I've got two thermal temperature probes. One clearly says "Made in the USA" on it and works like a DREAM. Even has a ton of memory and sensor options. Then there's the cheapo version I got for way less, DOESN'T say "Made in the USA" on it - and it's CRAP. Sure, the non-US version works...after you let the LCD "warm up" for 2 minutes! There's also no such thing as memory on it nor sensor options...You get what you pay for and to get merch from the US still requires you pay top dollar.

Don't confuse cheap for quality. Plenty of things are better made, here, in the US. You just have to not be a cheapo.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool anecdote. I have one, too. My friend owns a plumbing supply business. Been in the family for 80 years. I was asking about USA vs China recently and he said that at first, the Chinese stuff was terrible. Now, the Chinese-made fittings are routinely better than the US-made stuff and cheaper to boot.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

For the rest of the world 'Made in the USA' means 'Heavy, will break down, and none of your tools will fit'.

May sound harsh, but that is my experience of industrial equipment and the feelings of those who work with it.

Re:surely, you're joking

[pz]

Same thing happened with Made in Japan: decades ago, you were better off saving your pennies for good old American stuff because the Japanese equivalents were horrible. Nissan's first imports to the US (when they were known as Datsun) were a joke. So were Honda's. But now, the Japanese imported goods are top-notch and deserving of hard-earned respect. Korean goods followed the same path. Taiwanese, to a certain extent, although they don't seem to have fully realized their potential, yet. Chinese goods are just starting to get better as they, as a country, learn manufacturing. Given that they have vast resources to throw at the problem, I fully expect Made in China to, within a decade or so, mean something is quality goods, and we'll be looking to Made in Viet Nam, Made in Thailand, Made in North Korea, or Made in Kazahkstan with derision.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

The price and the quality generally correlate. By the time "Made in China" means something more like "Made in Japan", those goods will cost a lot more. And yes, we'll have moved on to manufacturing elsewhere for Walmart Grade goods.

To add to the summary, we're also pretty masterful at leveraging foreign manufacturing resources.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that was true for Japanese cars, but never for cameras or electronics.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Buminatrain]

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this. I tend to think your friend is just more fond of his profit margins with Chinese goods. I have a "fallback" job with a construction company and mainly do plumbing when working there. In general we use Chinese materials but on government/military jobs we have to use US materials. I'll tell you now the difference is night and day in terms of quality, on top of prevailing wage it's a joy working these jobs just due to how much better the quality of the US stuff is.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

"Look, we're still in the days of "It's best if it says Made in USA" on it. I've witnessed it, ..."

That's why you are such export-champions then I guess.

Real American companies, with real American names like 'Komatsu'.

Re:surely, you're joking

[OhANameWhatName]

we'll be looking to Made in Viet Nam, Made in Thailand, Made in North Korea, or Made in Kazahkstan with derision

Why wait? We're already looking to 'Made in the USA' with derision.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

For the rest of the world 'Made in the USA' means 'Heavy, will break down, and none of your tools will fit'.

I have worked for manufacturers and heavy equipment companies for years. When something is designed for industrial use, it does not matter where it was made, they just don't break down. I have seen presses with 100,000 hours behind them. Once they made shovels and ran on steam, now they run on three-phase and make BMW fuel line brackets. That's right expensive European cars have parts that are made in Detroit.

I'd put money that whomever has your attitude does not know what they are doing. How could they be competent when they ordered something without even knowing what tools they will need?

Re:surely, you're joking

[Buminatrain]

It's not for cars/vehicles either. Honda's first ten years or so they imported only motorcycles, they managed to gain a foothold here due to their reliability and high quality, the early Honda bikes are all still sought after and fairly expensive. Most of the Japanese car makers had early struggles to gain acceptance due to the reputation Japan gained immediately after WWII as being an exporter of cheap/poor quality goods as it was trying to rebuild it's economy. Also the fact that the culture of Japanese car design was very different from the US's at the time... As big as possible with as much horsepower as possible compared to lightweight efficient simple designs. The quality of Japanese motors/cars was never an issue, it was just perception and creating a market for a different type of vehicle which hindered their early reputation..

Re:surely, you're joking

[fredprado]

Not necessarily. Although their prices will certainly increases chances are they will pull the price down far more than their price will be pushed up.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

because ordered a 10M euro machine and failed to order the 200 euro tool set? Oh wait, everythign we export has metric bolts. It's been the standard in the US for everything but food, gasoline and sports for decades. And, if you can do math in public, the only difference is a $200 set of tools.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

> Oh wait, everythign we export has metric bolts.

You don't really think this do you?

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

There's plenty of outright shit Made in the USA. Here's what you are missing, it's not about origin, it's about making things to spec. Generally the spec for people contacting manufacturing to China is as-cheap-as-possible, and that's exactly what they get. Sure, labor and environmental costs less over there, but shipping, customs and other overhead associated with outsourcing eats a bunch of that, so to significantly increase the profits (as promised to shareholder) companies tend to drop quality as well. Turns out you can do this in the US as well! So there is quite a bit US made junk floating around these days. Conversely you can tell your Chinese partner to implement better processes, ramp up QA and that you will not only pay for it, but pay extra. Chances are you will get quality stuff, if not, try the factory next door. Point is, quality mostly depends on what the producer is wiling to pay, which is just about independent of what you are willing to spend. Origin is a useful heuristic, but the reality these days is that unlike with, say, German stuff you can't rely on US stuff to be good in the general case, you merely have a decent chance.

Re:surely, you're joking

[EETech1]

I can almost hear the frustration now...

Hey can you grab me the 10" box end wrench.

WTF you mean you only got a 250MM one? That wont fit, its too small ya dumbass!

Well i got a 275 MM one...

I don't wanna round off this gigantic fucking nut, then I'll have to use a chisel! Where the hell'd ya get that setta tools? Don't you know that Komatsu is made in the USofA?

Will this big ass pliers work...

Guess it'll have to, My adjustable wrench ain't big enough! Got a cheater bar for it?

Who would buy a 6 million dollar (euro whatever) earth raping machine that looses thousands of dollars every hour it's broken, and not get the right tools to work on it?

Re:surely, you're joking

[cheesybagel]

The 70s oil crisis helped. Suddenly cars with low fuel consumption became much more appealing. This is also why NSU, makers of Wankel engine cars, went under.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

So perhaps this extreme example is why people will only buy such large machines from the US?

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet if you spent a little time to do some research you could find a cheaper, superior one from an Asian manufacturer.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Viceice]

So Sony is an American company now?

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

If you extentend that "logic" to skin color you would be called racist. But it seems everything is possible in "tech"...

Re:surely, you're joking

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

You're confusing well-made with made in the USA.

Not trolling, but the US is not the only place well engineered stuff is made.

Also, don't confuse expensive with good quality. There's a correlation, but not always.

Re:surely, you're joking

[iserlohn]

Actually, the quality issue isn't the only thing. Apart from the intrinsic qualities of a product, you also have to consider the wider implications. After all, buying things is just a way of voting with your wallet. If I'm spending money buying a premium product, I wouldn't want to encourage exploitative behavior. If there were two products that were comparable, one made in a country like China or Vietnam, the other made in the US, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, the UK, or Europe, I would chose the latter without a doubt, even though it's a bit more expensive. Just because you know that otherwise the money is going to fund more corporate exploitation of cheap labor, and in the meanwhile, the workers would be living and working in poor working conditions, get paid peanuts, have no healthcare, and depending on the country some of the money would be used to fund an oppressive political regime.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Waccoon]

By "rest of the world", are you referring to nations like Germany and Canada, or nations like Romania and Venezuela?

Re:surely, you're joking

[jrumney]

This must be a recent thing. I worked for a factory back in the early 1990's that had a mixture of US and German made machinery. We needed to carry both metric and imperial tools and spares.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, in Romania, we use German stuff. They use the same metric and understand quality. Besides, other than rare expensive things, it's never worth importing anything from the USA.

Re:surely, you're joking

[hairyfish]

China is a big place, just because you have some crap from China, doesn't mean all stuff from China is crap. I used to work for a clothing manufacturer where EVERYTHING was made in China. From the cheap $5 T-shirts to the $300 jeans and dress shirts, the difference is only the raw materials used and the QA required.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Lonewolf666]

The price and the quality generally correlate.

Unfortunately, that is only half true. There is generally a minimum price for decent quality, but you can also pay lots of money for crap ;-)

Re:surely, you're joking

[hairyfish]

My tool-kit contains no imperial tools. This is the 21st century after all...

Re:surely, you're joking

[Aranykai]

Mine doesn't either. For instance, instead of a 1 inch box end wrench, I have a 25.4mm box end wrench.

Re:surely, you're joking

[dbIII]

Computers on the other hand ...
I used to get servers from a place called Racksaver, and alarm bells should have rung after a bit when they changed their name to Verari. By the time I gave up on them they were just packaging Taiwanese motherboards in Taiwanese chassis and when I sent one in for repair (half way around the fucking world at my own expense because they'd closed their local service centre), there was a long wait while they got parts shipped in from Taiwan. Then on the way back another fine US company, Fedex put a forklift tine through the server. After extensive correspondence about the damage Fedex refunded to shipping to the company that supplied the server, but I was left with a server in a bent chassis, but it did actually run. The next machine was assembled locally from Taiwanese parts instead of at a huge markup with a repair turnaround of months in the USA, and the same Taiwanese parts.

To sum up - everywhere you go there are some companies that put in good work and others that do not deliver what was promised. Not everything in the USA is up to the quality of the Mars rover and not everything in Russia is up to the standard of their space capsules.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea yea yea. I lived in China for 14 years, south west, north east, you name it. Manufacturing across China is all frankly crap. Unlike Japan, and the US, and to a lesser extent Korea, China *does not care* about quality. It's all about margin. Think your $300 jeans are good? Wait until they find a way to skim an extra $2 at the expense of 50% of the longevity, because they will, and they won't tell you.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's more than 10 years. Probably even as far back as the late '50s. It was at the time when Harley riders were outlaws, gang members, criminals and other negative stereotypes that Honda came in with their nice scooter promoted under the slogan "You'll meet the nicest people in a Honda" and started to make their way in.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/classic-ad-you-meet-the-nicest-people-on-a-honda/

Re:surely, you're joking

[drinkypoo]

I have worked for manufacturers and heavy equipment companies for years. When something is designed for industrial use, it does not matter where it was made, they just don't break down. I have seen presses with 100,000 hours behind them.

Presses, schmesses. That is orders of magnitude less than a piece of heavy equipment, which means bulldozer, front loader, dump truck, etc. You're talking about shop equipment. A machine shop, dirty as it is, is orders of magnitude cleaner than the places where heavy equipment operates.

Engines and hydraulic systems fail and need maintenance. Such is the way of the world.

Re:surely, you're joking

[drinkypoo]

Nissan's first imports to the US (when they were known as Datsun) were a joke. So were Honda's.

A joke, how? Many of the early Datsuns are still on the road, the B210 is still highly sought after as is the 510. The 240Z is one of the best sports cars ever made, and indeed are still competitive today if you have a 240ZVG. And the original Honda CVCC is the only vehicle since increased emissions testing to pass California's emissions restrictions without a catalytic converter.

Re:surely, you're joking

[drinkypoo]

There's plenty of outright shit Made in the USA. Here's what you are missing, it's not about origin, it's about making things to spec.

You mean like how when the first Raspberry Pis came out of China, the manufacturer had replaced the ethernet connector with an inferior one that didn't have the filtering required by the design, so that there are problems with ethernet transfer rates?

Chances are you will get quality stuff, if not, try the factory next door

Right, so you can pay for setup all over again, and get fucked all over again? Or you could move production to a more scrupulous country, which is what they did, and problem solved.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everything made in China is crap. But the quality control is still very much an issue. It's one thing if an electronic gadget or circuit board fails, as you can order a replacement and get it within a week. Ditto with small inexpensive parts for lightweight and low-stress applications. (Like your typical household plumbing parts.) For some heavy industrial forged or cast part, it has to be nearly perfect from the start. If it fails, you may not be able to get that replacement part for another 6 months. (Because it takes a lot of planning just to ship it to the work site.) So if your big digging machine breaks down on the first try during your excavation project, you're pretty much screwed as all that time costs money.

China still has serious issues doing things like building their own jet engines, so when it comes to big things made out of metal where you can't cut corners in materials and processes even they look to other countries for supply sources. They may have the capacity to produce them, but until their internal sourcing becomes reputable they still have a long way to go in this regard.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Smauler]

Hate to tell you this... but it's already happened. All consumer goods are made in China, or somewhere else with cheap labour, basically. No one cares where they come from. Even if they say "Manufactured in the USA", if means they import all the parts and assemble them in the US.

There are notable exceptions, like some of the famous chip manufacturers. They don't produce most of the world's chips though, they only produce the best ones. Everything that is relatively easy to manufacture will have been manufactured somewhere with cheap labour.... that's not going to be the US.

Who looks at their DVD player for the made in the USA sticker?

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be fooled, the Chinese manufactruing industry knows how to make quality goods, but their customers (the international firms selling the stuff) don't want to pay a lot, so the Chinese happily meet the requested price point by sacraficing quality.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Alioth]

For any complex piece of electronics this is true even if you live in China, or Taiwan or wherever. Wherever you live, and wherever the "Made in..." says, where it was made in had to import the majority of the parts. The last device I designed, every IC on that board came from a different country so basically there is nowhere in the world (not even China) you can assemble some electronics and not end up importing most of the semiconductors.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Smauler]

Made in Britain has been a joke for a long while in Britain.... even now it hangs on (in some cases deservedly), despite us producing some decent stuff (like aircraft engines, and lots of cars under license). Anyway, an example : The IT Crowd.

Re:surely, you're joking

[DerekLyons]

Doesn't so much sound harsh as ignorant. If the equipment was so bad, then why does the world keep buying it by the gross lot - especially since there are other sources?

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

I've dealt with a lot of supplier quality issues at work and in my own business. At work we source exclusively from US companies, for my side business I generally have all my electronics made in Shenzhen. I assure everyone, there are huge quality issues with american companies too. I think the difference is the chinese manufacturing is still competing solely on price. Consequently you will get lots of DOA boards, since they won't do testing as it costs money, you won't know where the parts come from, they may be counterfeit or possibly remarked salvage parts, for the little guy there is no way to know if you are getting screwed. The sad part is even knowing that some of those DOA boards are probably because of counterfeit and salvage parts making it into the factory's supply chain, the price difference is so huge it's worth taking the hit for non-critical appications.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like how when the first Raspberry Pis came out of China, the manufacturer had replaced the ethernet connector with an inferior one that didn't have the filtering required by the design, so that there are problems with ethernet transfer rates?

When you allow a different component (usually from a pool of "approved alternates") you know exactly what you are getting. There is a chance that by picking the cheapest one, you will fall out of spec. There is also a good chance that by picking the cheapest one you will save a few bucks per unit. If they didnt approve of the component, they wouldn't have let it into production or wouldn't have accepted the outcome. Any semi-respectable contract manufacturer will do this, even the ones in China. If the boards got the wrong part, either the manufacturer was beyond negligent (procuring counterfeit parts, for example) or the actual instructions from the designers were to "make it cheap". Semi-respectable contract manufacturers are the norm in China now (they weren't until maybe 10-15 years ago).

posting anon, first hand experience, corporate liability, etc.

Re:surely, you're joking

[TWX]

Uh, no...

The 7.62mm NATO rifle round is 0.30" in diameter. That's the standard military round for all NATO rifles in all NATO countries, which is a lot more metric-using countries than not.

Ever stop to consider the drives used by tools outside of the US? As in, 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" socket ratchets? Guess what? They're 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" in metric countries too, though often referred to by their metric equivalents.

Yes, as new things are developed, they're often developed in metric, but that's not necessarily because foreign buyers refuse SAE units, it's probably more because American buyers are coming to accept SI units.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

because ordered a 10M euro machine and failed to order the 200 euro tool set? Oh wait, everythign we export has metric bolts. It's been the standard in the US for everything but food, gasoline and sports for decades. And, if you can do math in public, the only difference is a $200 set of tools.

The 10M euro machine will have a zillion precise, metric fittings but the exhaust will still be hung together with a bunch of 7/16 and 3/4 bolts.

Re:surely, you're joking

[FromWithin]

> but you can also pay lots of money for crap ;-)
Cough! Bose. Cough!

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree with you to a point.

I have a lot of hobbies. In particular I like guns, knives, telescopes and guitars. All industries where quality makes a difference.

For the most part, "Made in the USA" means a quality piece. We're not the ONLY ones making good stuff though. Generally, European made stuff is good. Japanese is good. Korea is ok-ish. Phillipines is getting kinda low in quality. Anything that says "Made in China" is usually junk for any hobbyist within an particular area.

Here's the problem that I see though - while people in that particular hobby care about the quality, the vast majority of the market doesn't. It's hard to cater to the maybe 5% of the market that really wants a good quality widget when the other 95% just wants something that will work (even if it only works for a few months before it breaks) as long as its cheap.

All this article really validates is that for big machinery, anyone paying enough for this stuff generally needs the quality to be there.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

This reminds me of when I was working in China doing quality control related activities on a certain production line manufacturing a certain mobile computing device. I had my workhorse of a Lenovo laptop sitting on top of one of the automated testing machines which had a smooth surface. I went to touch the keyboard but bumped into the bottom of the laptop instead. It slid far enough so that the fulcrum of the screen went over the edge of the tester machine, then the whole thing went crashing to the ground in slow motion as my asshole puckered up and my heart skipped a beat. Picking up the laptop, it was off. Shit. I opened it up and powered it on and it booted up like nothing had happened. As the Chinese guys working next to me saw me breath a huge sigh of relief, they grinned and proudly declared: "Made in China".

Re:surely, you're joking

[mjwx]

Don't confuse cheap for quality. Plenty of things are better made, here, in the US. You just have to not be a cheapo.

Don't confuse expensive for quality.
Don't confuse country of origin for quality.

Good quality products is about having good production with low failure rates backed up by a rock solid QA process. I can trust companies from any country if they've got a proven track record of this. Boeing of America has such a reputation for me, Ford of America does not, I'd sooner by a Thai made Honda CRV and I hate SUV's with a passion.

Re:surely, you're joking

[drinkypoo]

You mean like how when the first Raspberry Pis came out of China, the manufacturer had replaced the ethernet connector with an inferior one that didn't have the filtering required by the design, so that there are problems with ethernet transfer rates?

When you allow a different component (usually from a pool of "approved alternates") you know exactly what you are getting. There is a chance that by picking the cheapest one, you will fall out of spec

But that's not what happened here. What happened here is that they were instructed to use one part, and they used another part anyway, in a production run. At least, so they say. As limited as their trustworthiness might be, I trust the R-Pi foundation more than some anonymous coward.

If the boards got the wrong part, either the manufacturer was beyond negligent (procuring counterfeit parts, for example)

Oh, so you mean, it does happen?

Semi-respectable contract manufacturers are the norm in China now

[citation needed], especially since you are anonymous and cowardly and I have every reason to assume you're full of shit.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

lol you have no idea what you are talking about. there are plenty of presses that surpass the price and sophistication of a bulldozer.

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides, other than rare expensive things, it's never worth importing anything from the USA.

Porn?

Re:surely, you're joking

[lsatenstein]

For the rest of the world 'Made in the USA' means 'Heavy, will break down, and none of your tools will fit'.

May sound harsh, but that is my experience of industrial equipment and the feelings of those who work with it.

==
When is the USA going to switch to metric measurements, including screws, nuts, bolts, lengths, and weights.
The USA is in a minority position when I buy products, as my metric tool set works with all products but those made in the USA.
A close match to an American size is my 13mm wrench, which is a half-inch.

Re:surely, you're joking

[lsatenstein]

This must be a recent thing. I worked for a factory back in the early 1990's that had a mixture of US and German made machinery. We needed to carry both metric and imperial tools and spares.

==
Was the imperial toolset for the German or American Machinery? Also, was it not the use of American measure that caused a major satellite to crash due to mis-calculations.

As a way to start towards going metric, the weather could be stated in both F and C degrees, and after 15 months, drop Fareheit mentions. Join Latin America, Mexico, Europe, China, Canada, India, and even England

Re:surely, you're joking

[Dabido]

Add "Made in Indonesia" to that list (Vietnam, Thailand et al), because there are good indications they may boom in the near future and start to produce a lot more. (Some things already come from there, such as some Nike shoes etc, but I keep reading the same thing (that they will boom soon) in the Financial stuff both here in the West and in Indonesia and Malaysia.)

Re:surely, you're joking

[Anonymous Coward]

There's plenty of outright shit Made in the USA. Here's what you are missing, it's not about origin, it's about making things to spec. Generally the spec for people contacting manufacturing to China is as-cheap-as-possible, and that's exactly what they get. Sure, labor and environmental costs less over there, but shipping, customs and other overhead associated with outsourcing eats a bunch of that, so to significantly increase the profits (as promised to shareholder) companies tend to drop quality as well. Turns out you can do this in the US as well! So there is quite a bit US made junk floating around these days. Conversely you can tell your Chinese partner to implement better processes, ramp up QA and that you will not only pay for it, but pay extra. Chances are you will get quality stuff, if not, try the factory next door. Point is, quality mostly depends on what the producer is wiling to pay, which is just about independent of what you are willing to spend. Origin is a useful heuristic, but the reality these days is that unlike with, say, German stuff you can't rely on US stuff to be good in the general case, you merely have a decent chance.

It's not really a 'chance' though, because if you know the origin you'll know if it's going to be quality or not. I mean if you randomly pick a product then yeah, but when you know what you're looking for you can definitely pick quality by origin.

Re:Except Komatsu is a Japanese company.

[Desler]

Neither the submission nor the article says otherwise. This doesn't change the fact that the products being referred to are manufactured in a US-base plant.

Re:Except Komatsu is a Japanese company.

[Sperbels]

But how Japanese could it be if it has no robots?

Super Value Goods

[Anonymous Coward]

> It may surprise you to learn that Komatsu doesn't employee a single industrial robot. The quality of workmanship simply isn't there where it is needed."

It has nothing to do with "quality of workmanship." These are super-value goods. They are made in very small batches (usually one-offs) and they are stationary during production. The assembly line moves around them. Not vice versa. A robot is good for doing one thing over and over again. It's only cost effective when you are producing 10,000+ units per year. If Komatsu started making 50,000 units a year, I guarantee you that they would start automating with robots. They wouldnt be able to get enough people at a reasonable cost to maintain the "quality of workmanship" produced by a robot. The "quality" thing is just a smokescreen.

Re:Super Value Goods

[mrbcs]

I worked as a welder-fitter at Komatsu Dresser in Cambridge Ontario a number of years ago. The "quality" issue is a red herring.

Robots haven't been invented that can fit a gusset plate made of 3/4" steel that doesn't quite fit right because a guy hand made it in a 500 ton press brake. The plates would have to be clamped, heated and hammered with a 10lb sledge hammer to fit properly.

We had about 20 - 35 ton trucks on the assembly line at any given time. There is simply no cost effective way to make a robot do the tasks that these guys were doing.

Re:Super Value Goods

[rthille]

Couldn't the parts be made to closer tolerances? Perhaps by using robots? :-)

Re:Super Value Goods

[mrbcs]

They could have used a press and die set up. That would cost upwards of 100 grand. Since they only made 20 units at a time, it's just not cost effective.... and you still don't need a robot.

Re:Super Value Goods

[cheesybagel]

It's the same issue GM had back when they started Saturn. If you don't design the whole vehicle to be assembled by robots it just doesn't work.

Re:Super Value Goods

[Gordonjcp]

Since they only made 20 units at a time, it's just not cost effective.... and you still don't need a robot.

Exactly - robots are great if you're building a hundred a day, all identical. They suck when I say "yeah I need ten 80-tonne trucks, and I need five of them to be made 300mm narrower". A bunch of guys cutting parts by hand can do that easily.

Re:Super Value Goods

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a bit perplexed at the claim that Komatsu has no industrial robots. Am I to believe they do not own any CNC machining tools? Has the definition of industrial robot changed?

Re:Super Value Goods

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything a bunch of guys cutting parts by hand can do, robots with lasers can do better.

Re:Super Value Goods

[Anonymous Coward]

But not faster

Re:Super Value Goods

[Gordonjcp]

It depends what you call "better". If by "better" you mean taking months to reconfigure, test, and finely tune to get right, then yes I suppose that's "better". A good steel cutter will take the drawings and gas axe them out of a plate for you, while you wait.

Re:Super Value Goods

[mrbcs]

Interesting that you should mention Saturn. I also used to work at an automotive plant in Toronto. They made the seat recliners. They couldn't find anyone else (besides me the poor prototype tech) that could weld a one inch bead and three spot welds with a mig welder.

The company brought in a robot and a huge 100% duty cycle mig welder. They made this massive jig that held 8 assemblies at a time. They had two people load and unload the jigs and about 200 people to do all the other assembly and packing. If they didn't have this robot, they wouldn't be able to make those parts.

Re:Super Value Goods

[bhiestand]

I'm a bit perplexed that you equate CNC machines with robots. In my experience, the use of "robot" never extended that far. Robots can be used to change parts in CNC machines, but operators do that just fine too. I have never heard anyone refer to the machines as "robots".

Thank Goodness

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank goodness there's no possible way for this thread to degenerate into a hodgepodge of anecdotes disguised as fact. I'm certain the Slashdot audience will rise above the low hanging fruit.

Re:Thank Goodness

[RockMFR]

I agree. We Americans do have rather large penises.

Re:Thank Goodness

[dugancent]

Obligatory.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103420/japanese-charm

Re:Thank Goodness

[iONiUM]

I don't know, my friend read this Slashdot story once that had no anecdotes in it at all. So, it does happen.

Re:Thank Goodness

[Anonymous Coward]

Yepp all the made in label gets you is that the final bolt was inserted in usa . nothing more is needed i,e the beloved Iphone and any other products as for the heavy stuff it is all owned by big overseas (read China) cos so yayy usa another pipe dream (meaning you must be smoking opiates) if you believe any quality parts are wholly made in you lazy country. scof scoff etc. not at your self entitled american wages with your cheap as ways of walmarting every item. (that is the same a CHEWING down the price)
pity you are duped by your add mans again. refer to Mr. George Hull via P. T. Barnum to identify yourself for what you are.

ahh the taste of the top most fruit lol.

Re:Thank Goodness

[tool462]

rise above the low hanging fruit.

At least the rest of us aren't making inappropriate penis jokes.

Re:Thank Goodness

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a butterfly.. At some random although predictive age of around 36-40 years old, they rapidly transform into someone that looks to be in their perky younger 20's to someone who looks about 60. It's a very rapid change.

Re:Thank Goodness

[evilviper]

I'm certain the Slashdot audience will rise above the low hanging fruit.

They used-to... They used-to. Before /. editors became professional trolls, and the site tried to copy digg and reddit, increasing story count to the point that discussion has a half-life of a few seconds... /. was once an inspiring place to be, with extremely high concentrations of experts in every technical fields, which would often chime-in on many subjects, and lead to extremely insightful discussions, and moderation which would pass over the flippant opinionated responses, and actually highlight insightful responses, especially when they ran directly contrary to popular opinion.

It's a real shame it went away. You can still look through the archives and find stories from a decade back to prove the point, but there's no substitute, today. I suppose Ars' attempts to improve the comment system has potential, but even if it goes well, their top-story churn is too high to lead to lingering, in-depth discussions.

Hacker News and PopSci have the same problems. So I'm still looking, but I've been on the verge of dumping my 15-year-old, ~16k comment, /. habit for a good long time now, because of the pile of worthless flames it's all become.

Re:Thank Goodness

[bhiestand]

I appreciate a good lie as much as the next guy, but I would have just modded you "Troll" if I hadn't just posted. Since I had, a quick refutation of your opiate-induced rant:

FTC Complying with Made in USA:

What is the standard for a product to be called Made in USA without qualification?

For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.

What does "all or virtually all" mean?

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.

Re:Komatsu?

[Desler]

Yes, the manufacturing plant being referred to in the article is in Peoria, Illinois.

That local expertise attracted Komatsu. After being owned by Mr. LeTourneau, Westinghouse Electric and Dresser Industries, the Peoria plant was sold to Komatsu about two decades ago as part of the Japanese company's effort to establish a major American presence. Komatsu makes smaller mining trucks in Japan, but its largest trucks, able to carry as much as 360 tons of ore, come from Peoria.

And again, nothing in either the article or submission stated that Komatsu was a US company. They were strictly referring to the US-based manufacturing plants that create products that these companies export from the US.

Re:Komatsu?

[Ralph Spoilsport]

agreed. tres bullcrap.

Pity about the robots

[reg]

I think the US should declare robots a munition subject to export control and extreme secrecy. With the increase in robotic soldiers, it will become important, and as the US learns to make better robots for the military, they will make better industrial robots. At some point the robots will be more cost effective than slaves in China... If they cannot be exported then manufacturing will return to the US. At least for a while Americans will be able to get high skill jobs building and fixing robots...

Re:Pity about the robots

[Anonymous Coward]

ummm your whole post seems to imply the US is somehow a leader in robotics. Perhaps a reality check is in order for you, if you banned exports and other countries that are way ahead of the US in the field retaliated then the US would simply fall behind.

Please, someone, please explain this to me ...

[Taco Cowboy]

...I know that English ain't my first language, but still ...

Komatsu doesn't employee a single industrial robot

Re:Please, someone, please explain this to me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone wrote something - like

"John Smith, an employee at Komatsu, noted that his company doesn't use a single industrial robot..."

which was edited later to read

"A Komatsu employee noted that the company doesn't use a single industrial robot..."

and later, to

"Komatsu doesn't employee a single industrial robot."

And since 'employee' wasn't caught by the spell checker, the error went thru to press.

Re:Please, someone, please explain this to me ...

[slashmydots]

Simple, robots are not considered employees lol.

Re:Please, someone, please explain this to me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

The best part is that the DO use tons of robots since there subcontractors do. They just don't use any robots inte the last stage of assembly... but I guess it sounds better if you pretend no pick and place, CNC or general assebly robot was used anywhere in the process.

Re:Please, someone, please explain this to me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

And later "komatsu doesn't simply employee robot industry"

Re:Please, someone, please explain this to me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"One does not simply employee into Mordor."

Re:Komatsu?

[AdamHaun]

Why Caterpiller and not coca-cola?

Your link answers that question: Caterpillar sells equipment that helps Israel illegally build settlements in Palestinian territory. Coca-Cola does not. The Palestinians' interests are pretty clear -- they want their own state. There's nothing abstract or symbolic about it.

Quality vs time vs price

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more about price vs quality vs time than just about price and quality. Sure you can buy a decent Chinese locomotive for less money but if you buy an American one you know it will still be running half a century from now. Some products are short term where price is king but things like construction equipment and infrastructure are long term investments where your children will have to live with your choices. Better to spend more now than have to fork out money on replacements every ten years.

Re:Quality vs time vs price

[cheesybagel]

I was kind of surprised anyone wanted to buy US locomotives at all. Only if they are the low speed freight trains I guess.

Re:Komatsu?

[Anubis IV]

Caterpillar is neither environmentally nor socially responsible. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Good ol' Uhmurrican values. Don't you be smirchin' 'em.

Re:Komatsu?

[Brett Buck]

Certainly, because when a company goes to buy heavy construction equipment, environmental and and "social responsibility" (code for leftist values) is certainly high on their list.

        I almost think your post is a parody of a effete worthless ignoramus, if it were not posted here.

Daewoo...

[thesupraman]

And both are small compared to Daewoo, who make supertankers, etc.

Really? trucks are big? um, no.

World shipbuilding market share by countries (2011)
Rank Country Combined GT %
1 South Korea South Korea 137,596,000 37.45%
2 China China 123,961,000 33.7%
3 Japan Japan 63,641,000 17.3%
4 Philippines Philippines 423,000 1.6%

Not seeing the US of A on that list..

Re:Komatsu?

[donscarletti]

Caterpiller armoured bulldozers are probably the most visible element of IDF retaliatory demolitions. When your product is being used to knock down the homes of civilians to flush out insurgents in the community then you shouldn't be dumbfounded when your PR takes a slide.

Re:You are ALL forgetting the difference in ETHICS

[Anonymous Coward]

> You are ALL forgetting the difference in ETHICS

> As an American who is not in favor of war, I think we will look back and
wish we had nuked China when we still could have done it without fear
of a retaliatory strike.

Do you have any remote notion of what the word Ethics mean?

BTW please stop doing crimes against mankind instead of thinking up bigger evils.

Re:Komatsu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Caterpiller sells equipment that Israel uses in its construction of illegal settlements.

So does nearly every company that sells to the Israel. Companies that sell the grease and other consumables for the bulldozers? Companies that sell tires for humvees? All those computers used to organize information? Manufacturers of gyprock used in construction of illegal settlements? The list could go on and on. Even coca-cola: they provide refreshment that aids soldiers when demolishing homes.

An internally consistent boycott would mean a boycott on all companies that do business in Israel, because the state of Israel is responsible for building the illegal settlements. I personally don't want to see that happen; for all its flaws, I'm glad Israel is there and hope that somehow, sometime they do the right thing and leave the West Bank. But I do think that a full boycott makes a lot more sense that selectively picking on companies that play a single part in a larger activity.

Wait what?

[Kral_Blbec]

US jobs rooted in defense contracting?
I thought we were better off slashing the defense budget and putting the money directly into foodstamp programs!

Re:Komatsu?

[tompaulco]

Caterpillar sells equipment that helps Israel illegally build settlements in Palestinian territory.
So if they can blow up the Caterpillar plant, then the Israelis will not buy construction equipment from another company, they will simply realize the folly of their ways and give the land to the Palestinians? Somebody's spent too much time in the desert, methinks.

Lower volume is the real issue

[Grayhand]

It's impractical to build robots to make equipment that is made in the hundred of units and individual parts weighs in the tons. Humans are more flexible so it's easier for humans to do short runs and American workers have a fairly long history of doing this work. For China it's workers are one generation off the farm and it's one thing to slap two halves of an iPad together but a very different issue aligning 5 ton metal castings. Ultra heavy equipment is just shy of being one offs so it requires a much higher skill set which the US still excels at. This is nothing new. I remember reading decades ago about Russian Subs couldn't match the US for quiet operation because we had the only mills that could make the propellers for quiet running. The largest metal castings we did were for the turrets for WW II battle ships and even the US can't reproduce those now.

Largest operative Airplane is not USA-made

[girlinatrainingbra]

Well, if we're talking about the category of large airplanes, then the undisputed winner is the Antonov An-225 Mriya which was built in the Soviet Union and the Ukraine to be the equivalent of the USA Space Shuttle's transport aircraft. It tops the categories of : -- world's heaviest aircraft ever (max. takeoff weight greater than 640 tons)
-- world's largest aircraft ever
-- largest aerodyne (in length and wingspan) ever entering operational service
-- absolute world record for airlifted payload at 189,980 kilogram (418,834 pounds)
;>)
Of course, the largest wingspan ever is owned by Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose, the Hughes Aircraft H4-Hercules. It was never really an operational aircraft: it only flew once, and it was really made of birch instead of spruce. But hey, in terms of largest wingspan ever built, USA-ians can chant "We're Number One! We're Number One!"

Re:Largest operative Airplane is not USA-made

[Overzeetop]

Isn't this about current production capabilities? Is the An-225 Mriya still being produced?

I ask because the summary seemed to imply that this was about who could build big, specialized equipment right now. There are several technologies (steel presses come to mind) which have been built in the past, but for which there is no capacity (yeah - actually zero) to build today. The fabrication shops and foundries would have to be built from scratch to reproduce the old equipment. Heck, you couldn't build another space shuttle today either (not that you'd particularly want to) - there's just nobody actively operating a facility building them.

I won't bother RTFA, but I find it somewhat disturbing, but not too surprising, that robots are not used. For high tolerance work, automated equipment is key to production speed. But these aren't really production machines in the traditional sense - they're all low volume, and likely customized for each buyer. That means hand work.

Re:Largest operative Airplane is not USA-made

[serviscope_minor]

Isn't this about current production capabilities? Is the An-225 Mriya still being produced?

Depends. They've been threatening to finish the other one on and off for decades now.

It's basically a juiced AN-124 with a barrel extended fuselage and longer wings (with more of the same engines), but is otherwise quite similar. The 124 is still in production. If they can build 124s they can build 225s except that it would be a custom job since there are no production lines, makeing it very expensive. I think it's a question of expense and demand not capability.

Anyway, the biggest aircraft in current production is the A380, which is nearly as big. If it progresses as much as aircraft do throughout their production life, (and has been planned by the designers) it may well exceed the AN-225 in MTOW.

But, honestly, the AN225 looks cooler.

Re:Largest operative Airplane is not USA-made

[ryllharu]

For high tolerance work, automated equipment is key to production speed. But these aren't really production machines in the traditional sense - they're all low volume, and likely customized for each buyer. That means hand work.

Even automated equipment makes mistakes. When it comes to final fit ups in very robust, complicated machinery like they're taking about here, there will be hand work on even mass produced parts. Screws, bolts, actuators, etc.

Lots of assemblies get shimmed.

Tolerance stack up is an everyday problem when you have a couple hundred to a million components. Doesn't matter if your business produces hundreds of units a year, or one unit every two years. Little amounts add up to significant offsets.

Re:Largest operative Airplane is not USA-made

[mjwx]

Isn't this about current production capabilities? Is the An-225 Mriya still being produced?

The An-225 is a bad example, the Airbus A380 would have been better.

robots are our future

[Anonymous Coward]

treat them well and let them lead the way
give them a sense of purpose to make it easier
let the robots' work ethic remind us how we used to be.

Re:Komatsu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Coca-cola sells to Israel, too. Jewish soldiers drink it. See how this works?

Re:Except Komatsu is a Japanese company.

[stuckinarut]

Except is does have Robotic Trucks.

Re:Except Komatsu is a Japanese company.

[PPH]

The USA has the skilled workers. Japan (and others) have better managers.

We had similar situations at Boeing. Boeing-owned plants couldn't build parts worth crap. Boeing sold them off (to a few foreign owners) who brought in competent management teams and now they do quality work.

not big, important

[slashmydots]

If you pay half for construction equipment and it breaks within a month, that throws off the expensive estimate just a bit. Any cheap-manufacturing country does not offer sufficient quality for business use of quarter million dollar machinery. They make cheap, hastily designed stuff out of inferior materials to undercut everyone because that's what they do. They can't make a perfect machine because then they'd need a vast engineering infrastructure and high purity metal manufacturing and all that. That's primarily the US and not a whole lot more.

Re:not big, important

[mwvdlee]

The only reason the US has an advantage in building these big machines is because they needed these big machines when there wasn't anybody else building them yet. There isn't some inherent quality in of the US. It's the same reason the US is way behind the curve in fuel-efficient, reliable and nimble cars; they never needed cars to be fuel-efficient due to low fuel prices, reliable due to economy nor nimble due to relatively morestraight-line distances. Now all of a sudden they do, and now they're trying hard to catch up. Necessity is the mother of invention. If China would suddenly need machines twice the size as the US builds, they'd soon be leaders in building big machines. Yes, most of China's economy revolves around cheap labour and low costs, that doesn't mean they don't have any highly skilled engineers or the ability to create top quality.

Re:not big, important

[drinkypoo]

The only reason the US has an advantage in building these big machines is because they needed these big machines when there wasn't anybody else building them yet

That's just not true. The reason the US has an advantage in building these big machines is that we're good at building these big machines. We have the best of everything; the best raw materials, for example. And the biggest corporations which can spend the most money.

If China would suddenly need machines twice the size as the US builds, they'd soon be leaders in building big machines.

There is no such thing as machines twice the size as the US builds, because if someone wants a bigger machine, we'll build it. And China buys its heavy equipment from other countries, but now isn't buying any to speak of, because their building boom has gone bust and they have entire cities lying empty because their economic model does not permit the citizenry to have sufficient wealth to be able to inhabit them, and yet their government is not actually communist, and will therefore not simply place people into those cities based on merit.

Yes, most of China's economy revolves around cheap labour and low costs, that doesn't mean they don't have any highly skilled engineers or the ability to create top quality.

It's not that they don't have any highly skilled engineers, but they don't have the ability to create top quality because that is not their goal. The goal is always to maximize profit. This does not set them apart, of course, from most "American" companies, but if you take a look I think you'll find that the so-called American companies that don't give a shit about quality are having their shit made in China. They might as well be a Chinese company with an American sign. As well, if you consider the history of Chinese manufacturing, there is actually no evidence they have ever had great engineers. When they rip off a design they copy it so faithfully that it contains the original flaws, even obvious ones. This has been obvious for as long as industrial goods have been coming out of China. They might be technically capable of producing the highest quality product, but they appear to be culturally uninterested in doing so.

Re:not big, important

[Anonymous Coward]

If you pay half for construction equipment and it breaks within a month, that throws off the expensive estimate just a bit. Any cheap-manufacturing country does not offer sufficient quality for business use of quarter million dollar machinery.

And yet all of the really big (150+ kton DWT) ships are built in Korea, Japan, and China. The US doesn't even have yards capable of that size. Aircraft carriers, about the largest ships built in the US, are comparatively small (~100k tons), because they're built to transit the Panama canal. If you pay $100M for a ship, you expect it to last 25-35 years.

good quality is good strategy

[manu0601]

There are two ways of being competitive. The first one is to lower all costs, (and especially labor costs) and make a weak product cheaper than competitors. The second one is to make better products with high price.

The cut-all-costs approach has a problem: there is always someone in a poor country ready to work for lower wage. Being competitive this way means making workers poorer and poorer. And there are environmental issues: costs can be cut by wreaking the environment in countries where there is no regulation to protect it. And since the ecosystem is global, environmental issue created in poor countries will bite back rich countries later.

Cutting all costs to be competitive leads to social and environmental destruction. I am glad there are still some success stories of good products with high price. Of course I do not take for granted that the high-price product is driving up wages and environment preservation, but at least it is not incompatible with it.

Re:good quality is good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

Being competitive by providing the cheapest goods, however it is done, makes all free people wealthier and wealthier

FTFY. Only free people become wealthier. Slaves will always be slaves.

And for a cheap goods strategy to work, you need lots of slaves. Well, today we call them "consumers", but that doesn't change what they are: slaves to consumerism. 70% of US GDP is consumption.

People are being enslaved to the idea of, as Fight Club put it, "working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need."

That is the lesson learned from 19th century US and current China. Make things cheap enough, people will buy it even when they don't actually need it or make them wealthier, and they'll become your wage slaves so they can buy those things.

In 19th century they did it to the Chinese immigrants. Chinese immigrants came to the country looking for opportunity to move up the social ladder. Did that happen? How many 19th century robber barons were Chinese? Nope. Most of them stayed as in the lower classes. They chased the American Dream and it was just that: a dream, a fantasy, the dangling carrot on a stick that looks delicious but cannot actually be obtained.

Today, they do it to all Americans. Americans think if they just keep buying cheap Walmart crap and chase the newest iPads that they'll become richer. They think taking out loans to buy that new McMansion will make them richer. They think a larger student loan must mean their little piece of paper will mean more, even if it says "art degree" on it

"buy things you couldn't before and you can buy more of them for less money" doesn't mean you're wealthier. It just means you're consuming more. Consumption is not wealth. Production is wealth, and "make things cheap" only creates the ILLUSION that everybody is wealthier, when in fact they are LESS wealthy and LESS free, as they are pressured - coerced - to consume more. Again, "OMG I gotta get the new iPad" (said the debt-ridden art degree student)

That's how they (big government and big business) were able to keep worker wages stagnant, if not lower than before. Becoming richer would mean your (inflation adjusted) income INCREASES, not stay the same. But since everything's cheaper, there's the ILLUSION that people became richer because the same/lower income can buy them more stuff

Re:good quality is good strategy

[BetterSense]

"The cut-all-costs approach has a problem: there is always someone in a poor country ready to work for lower wage. Being competitive this way means making workers poorer and poorer."

How does giving work to someone who wants it make them poorer?

If someone is willing to work for a lower wage, then that person needs the work worse. Right? Shouldn't we always give the work to that person? Then both parties benefit the most? So you are saying that instead we should give the work to people who will only do it for a higher wage, and therefore, do not need the work as much? Why?

Because the the poorer people who will do the job for less are not Americans and don't matter?

I think you mean "Being competitive this way means enriching poor workers in shithole countries instead of enriching (by a smaller marginal factor btw) 1st-world citizens of socialist democracies and leaving the poor workers in the fields where they belong". There are many people who will agree with you on that, so you should just say what you mean.

Re:good quality is good strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

And for a cheap goods strategy to work, you need lots of slaves. Well, today we call them "consumers", but that doesn't change what they are: slaves to consumerism.

You made it half-way to roman_mir's goal with that statement, but then you accidentally favored the slaves. Roman_mir is an open an unapologetic supporter of slavery. He fully endorses the return to a time when workers are bought and sold on the open market by employers who will pay them nothing. Notice how he compares the Made in USA store to the 1860s? He didn't say there was anything wrong with the 1860s - indeed that period is his nirvana.

Re:good quality is good strategy

[manu0601]

How does giving work to someone who wants it make them poorer?

You have to ask yourself how that person lived before

One of the dirty tricks USA and UE have in globalization is to flood southern markets with food so cheap that local farmers cannot compete. I do not know for USA, but the UE even subsidize food production to be exported. At first look it seems nice to have cheap food, but that destroy southern countries food sovereignty, and people that cannot live from agriculture anymore join the pool of the southern poors ready to work for nearly nothing.

railway?

[Anonymous Coward]

Railway? are you kidding me ? The US is 40 years behind on trains. They still use diesel in stead of electric !

So much boasting.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget guys. The only place in the world you can get your products made with Freedom is in the USA.

"Made in China" is certainly making inroads

[Taco Cowboy]

The link is at http://www.theajmonline.com.au/mining_news/news/2012/july/july-12-2012/rio-partners-chinese-truck-supplier-threatens-oem-stranglehold

Although it's only 4 trucks at the moment, and the 4 trucks are on "trial runs", nonetheless, it's a start for "Made in China" to make inroads to the BIG EQUIPMENT industry.

Insignificant on economy

[dutchwhizzman]

The USA has resorted to buy everything imported, since their consumers would rather whine about quality than pay for it. The thousands of billions spent on clothing, electronics, food, cars and building materials to name a few industries don't weigh up to the few that come in by exporting planes or mining equipment and such.

Also, quite a lot of these products are assembled from imported materials or half-products, the owners or shareholders are often foreign so apart from providing actual manufacturing and producing jobs to the USA, a lot of the profit is often not staying in the USA.

The Netherlands used to have a very prosperous ship building industry. That died out, competition from lower wage countries with good sea access made the cheaper, worse quality ships still a good investment. Then the competitors got better at building ships with the experience they gained and even the high quality ships could be purchased from lower wage countries. By now, these countries have lost most of their ship building industry to the far east, where they build ships in assembly lines by the dozens per year, on dozens of assembly lines. Imagine an iPhone 5 manual assembly line, building 1000 yards and larger ships. Now imagine 20 of those lines in a shipyard. This is reality now. If mining excavators, planes trains or any other product named in this list ever gets produced in numbers big enough to warrant mass production sites, cheap labour countries will start producing. We may laugh at India or China's plans to produce their own aerospace or commercial flight equipment, but in 10 years, Boeing and Airbus will most likely be buying 90% of their parts prefabricated from those very countries and in 20 years, they will probably be reduced to a manufacturing and assembly location for them.

Re:Insignificant on economy

[bytesex]

It's returning though - Damen now build in Romania.

Re:Insignificant on economy

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not the consumers. Consumers want cheaper gas too, but they don't get it.
You start off selling at $1000 which costs $700 to make, but then you realise that you could sell for $900 and it only costs $400. The quality is awful, but as long as it looks similar it will sell. Soon you are selling for $750 which only costs you $200.

Then you say 'whelp, the stupid consumers only want to pay $750, if they shelled out $1000 they could have decent quality' and if some consumers are willing to spend $1000, you sell them which cost you $400 .

Re:Insignificant on economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget that in 10-20 years time the work force, now capable or producing higher quality goods, should be seeking higher salaries for their sort after skills...

Re:Insignificant on economy

[strikethree]

The USA has resorted to buy everything imported, since their consumers would rather whine about quality than pay for it.

I hate to be too rude, but go fuck yourself. It was not consumers that decided, it was the business owners trying to squeeze a few extra dollars of profit and forcing the crap quality stuff down our throats.

If I have $200 to spend on shoes, would i be better off buying 4 pairs at $50 or 1 pair at $200? Considering that the 1 pair will likely outlast those 4 pairs and will be far more comfortable, I am going to spend the $200 on the one pair. I have that choice in shoes currently, but not for most other products.

Re:Insignificant on economy

[evilviper]

The USA has resorted to buy everything imported, since their consumers would rather whine about quality than pay for it.

In the late 90s, it ceased to be POSSIBLE for consumers to pay for quality. Instead, formerly high-end brands leased out their names, and stamped them on low-quality junk. Retailers did absolutely nothing to stem the tide of junk. There was nowhere consumers could go, and nothing they could look for, to ensure the extra money they were paying, was actually going to mean higher quality (rather than higher profits for someone else).

These days, wider usage of the internet has offered customer reviews a long reach, and a possible hedge against corporate America actively sabotaging the quality of products consumers spend their money on.

The thousands of billions spent on clothing, electronics, food, cars and building materials to name a few industries don't weigh up to the few that come in by exporting planes or mining equipment and such.

The US is the number 1 economy, and the number 1 manufacturing economy, by a solid margin, despite a fairly small population compared to China and others.

We may laugh at India or China's plans to produce their own aerospace or commercial flight equipment, but in 10 years, Boeing and Airbus will most likely be buying 90% of their parts prefabricated from those very countries and in 20 years, they will probably be reduced to a manufacturing and assembly location for them.

Cheap countries make some headway, but they're technologically limited. Boeing's latest jet is using high-tech composites, and the turbines are the most fuel-efficient available. China can't compete with that.

Chinese-made cars are cheap, but that's partly because they use decades-old engine technology, which has poor fuel efficiency and terrible emissions. With the US increasing minimum fuel efficiency standards, China can't legally sell their cheap, low-tech junk here, and there's not much hope they'll catch-up with western manufacturers.

In addition, as fuel prices rise, transporting cheap goods from China to the US adds substantially to the sale price. Some jobs are coming back to the US because of it, though honestly, many are just moving from China to Mexico, but that's still beneficial to the US.

And there's even more hope on the horizon... More advanced assembly-line robots look to be able to do the jobs of more people, which means you need less Chinese hordes, and more highly-paid robot maintenance and repair men. 3D printers suggest a future where those cheap Chinese knick-knacks can be produced cheaply and domestically with minimal human labor, and completely customized for each customer, which will again displace hordes of Chinese workers.

And in all this, you're missing out on the fact that China and others are buying lots of US products, too. Don't want to let Chinese products into the US market, and China won't let GM sell their cars in China, where they're making more money annually than they do in the US.

And all your xenophobic concerns are ones we've seen before. Japan followed the same path as China is, yet the fears of Japan overtaking and buying-out all of the US companies weren't entirely based in reality, now were they?

Re:Insignificant on economy

[Anonymous Coward]

>>I have that choice in shoes currently, but not for most other products.

bullshit, you whiny american prick. lol , "its that guy's fault, he forced me to buy his inferior product. I had no other choice" !

fuck the only thing good left about /. is the captcha, in this case, heres to you pal, "victim" ROFLMAO

Is that a porn movie?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hope they wear condoms...

robotic welding methods developed by Komatsu

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.komatsu.com/CompanyInfo/profile/report/pdf/154-05_E.pdf

Only in use in Japan? I've seen "How it's Made" showing a robot welding in a Komatsu factory which I thought was in the US, but perhaps it was overseas footage.

Re:You are ALL forgetting the difference in ETHICS

[Anonymous Coward]

US should have joined with Nazi Germany in subjugating Europe and Russia before proceeding to dominate Africa and Asia. Had we done that then mankind would have already established orbital and lunar colonies and work would be well under way to begin mining the asteroid belt and building Mars colonies.

Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[tanveer1979]

Once upon a time, you expect things to last.
Cell phone? Should work for 5 years atleast without hitch.
TV - Well 20 years is no big deal
Washing machine - 20 years, no big deal

However, the consumerist culture has started to change the psych of the consumers all over the world.
"Use and throw" is the buzz word?

Phone : One year later dump your old, get new one on contract at 100$/month or whatever
Washing machine : 3 years is great, thats why we give only 3 years warranty
Car ? 50,000 miles for a clutch replacement is great

This culture is killing quality manufacturing.

There is no incentive to design and build an automobile which does 500,000 miles without hitch in normal running conditions.

Not possible you say? Look at the 1980s 1990s landcruisers, or the old mercs. They still go on and on.

Old Nokia handsets would last 5-6 years easily, even when subject abuse like water dunking and falls. Today, if you sneeze on your cell phone, it would explode.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[JaredOfEuropa]

Quality is still there... if you pay for it.

Take tools for an example: in the old days, all tools sold were pretty good, and pretty expensive. If I visit the hardware store today, I see a lot of inexpensive crap on the shelves but the good stuff is still there, so I now have a choice that I didn't have before. If I expect to be building a couple of houses, it makes sense to buy expensive power tools that are dependable and will last forever. However, if I will only have occasional use for a tool, the cheaper version makes better economic sense. My electric screwdriver is top of the line as it sees a lot of use, however my drill press is a cheap Chinese one that only sees occasional use. It's still going strong after 10 years; the point is that in the old days, I probably couldn't have afforded it, or justified the cost.

My washing machine? Over a decade old without any servicing whatsoever; this brand still has an expected useful service life of 20 years
TV? I got rid of my old glass tube dog kennel model to get a flatscreen, but that old TV found a new home and still works... 10 years old.
Cell phone? People throw them out because technology moves fast these days; the difference between a 2 year old phone and a new one is significant. But my old iPhone still works perfectly after nearly 5 years, and it's getting a new lease on life as a home automation control panel.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[drinkypoo]

If I visit the hardware store today, I see a lot of inexpensive crap on the shelves but the good stuff is still there, so I now have a choice that I didn't have before

But that's not true at all. Hardware stores haven't gotten bigger, except for the home Despot, and I know from experience that while they do have some made in the USA tools there, in general their shelves are longer so that they can store a second option "made in china" next to the first one. In most hardware stores, they have had to take out "made in usa" stuff in order to make room for the cheaper crap. My primary example is Sears. They used to sell one brand of tools, Craftsman, and all hand tools had a lifetime warranty. Now they have created a cheaper value brand without a lifetime warranty, and sometimes you'll go into a Sears store (in a pinch, man) and they only have what you want in the cheaper version. So in fact, you are simply wrong. The proliferation of cheap chinese crap has pushed quality goods out of stores, and off of their shelves and racks.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[JaredOfEuropa]

Of course Made in China has pushed out some of the quality tools out of some shops. I'm not in the US though so things might be different here. Larger hardware stores usually carry various levels of quality, and smaller shops will favour the cheap brands, while certain other hardware stores only have top tier brands. One just has to know where to go.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[drinkypoo]

One just has to know where to go.

Well, there's absolutely nowhere in my county to purchase a broad selection of quality tools. Granted, I live in bumfuck. But we have three hardware stores and they're all ACE.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[Anonymous Coward]

Old Nokia handsets would last 5-6 years easily, even when subject abuse like water dunking and falls. Today, if you sneeze on your cell phone, it would explode.

Modern Nokia cell phones can take a decent stabbing.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[dywolf]

sears is no more a hardware store than home depot. they are the walmarts of tools and sell products to match. your exmaple sucks so you're wrong, to use your elegant logic.

want real hardware store with quality stuff? try ACE or TrueValue. they havent yet succumbed to the big box store mentality.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[Anonymous Coward]

Sears still sells some higher quality stuff, you have to pay for it which a lot of people don't so Sears offers choices.

I went through one of these in about 2 months
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-evolv-gel-handle-hand-trowel/p-07164912000P?prdNo=1

before buying one of these that has lasted YEARS..
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-ergonomic-hand-gardening-trowel/p-07164921000P?prdNo=21

Same with the garden hoses and just about every other thing in the lawn and garden section. Sears also has a huge line of industrial and professional hand tools (wrenches, sockets etc) but they are about 2x of the regualr Craftsman line. Most small stores do not carry them but they are readily available online and in the tool catalogs.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[Bill_the_Engineer]

want real hardware store with quality stuff? try ACE or TrueValue. they havent yet succumbed to the big box store mentality.

ACE and TrueValue are hardware cooperatives that allow locally owned hardware store owners purchase name brand tools at a lower cost since they purchase them as a collective. Also they are able to carry their cooperative branded items which are comparable to items sold with a national hardware store brand. There are no inherent differences in quality of goods sold except that you'll find some lesser quality options at ACE that are priced similarly to a mid-tier at a Home Depot or Lowe's.

While I don't know about your Home Depot, but the ones in my area have people who know their trade working in the departments. I can ask a question and either they know it "off the top of their head" or they can ask their department head who knows it. Of course the Home Depots in my area are much older than the rest of their corporate chain, but while on the road I occasionally pick up something at a Home Depot and haven't noticed any difference in service. In fact customer service is what gave Home Depot a competitive edge against Lowe's who, until they began losing significant market share to Home Depot, focused most of their attention on contractors.

The Home Depot has a distinct advantage in my area. Not only does it supply everything at lower prices, they can afford to hire tradesmen as department heads. My ACE Hardware store has a good selection of most items, but I don't expect him to hire the large number of people that man a Home Depot at any given time of day. I also don't expect him to know everything about every item in the store. That said my ACE hardware guy can special order some fixtures or cabinet hardware and since he has less customer traffic he calls me when they are ready for pickup (ie. he is able to offer more personal service).

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[Anonymous Coward]

I've met a lot of people working at HD that were previously in the "business". You can look at that two ways, why are they not still in that business? Did it not work out for them because they sucked or are they kind of in a relax mode kicking back working relatively local and stress free? The last professional guy I met working there was a retired IT director for a mid sixed government contractor. He was working in the paint department. Sure he was not a professional painter for a living but he was familiar with the products, a lot more than the teen agers at my local Ace store.

When I'm 60, I will consider myself a failure if I am still travelling downtown to work 60+ hours a week IT (at any level, even the director). I want to be working at HD part time by then. Really.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[Anonymous Coward]

I've met a lot of people working at HD that were previously in the "business". You can look at that two ways, why are they not still in that business?

Easy answer: Pay and benefits without having the hassle of running your own business.

My father worked at Home Depot for about 20 years. He and his associate manager coworkers came to be known as the Home Depot Millionaires. Home Depot (under Bernard Marcus) gave generous stock options to their employees and eventually the employees were able to cash out before the stock market had its first correction. I don't know any other retail chain that can make that distinction.

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[Anonymous Coward]

i heard about this thing called the internet, where usually you can get whatever you want shipped, cheaper than a local outfit...

Re:Quality manufacturing... On its way out

[drinkypoo]

i heard about this thing called the internet, where usually you can get whatever you want shipped, cheaper than a local outfit...

I usually buy tools just-in-time. I suspect most tools are purchased this way, but I have no statistics.

Re:Komatsu?

[unix_core]

Are you sure Coca Cola isn't just making the IDS toothless and obese? The palestinians should thank them!

Telescopes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ten years ago, Chinese made optics and telescopes were a joke. Now they aren't. Only the very best non Chinese-made stuff can compete on quality, but not on price. And with the release of the latest high end Chinese-made stuff, even that advantage looks shaky.

The only thing non Chinese manufacturers cling to now is the belief that Chinese labor costs will eventually rival that of non-Chinese manufacturers, and then the bottom lines will equal out.

Only with subsidy from the state though...

[Anonymous Coward]

The US aerospace sector gets probably the largest state subsidy, of any industry in the whole world,, in the form of huge military contracts. This obviously has impact on the civilian divisions of these companies, and at least for Boeing, has already been found to be true by a WTO investigation.

WRONG

[Anonymous Coward]

NSU survives in Audi/VW and they seem to do extremely well. VW is now battling with Toyota for the #1 spot.

Re:WRONG

[Sique]

There is no NSU anymore in Volkswagen. None of their car lines survived after 1977. The only car that ever was build with a different badge was the NSU/VW K70, which can be seen as an inspirational predecessor to the VW Passat line, but none of the car parts were ever used somewhere else. Even the engine (a normal 4cyl, not a Wankel), based on the NSU-1200 design, was replaced with the EA827.

Worked For Hitler

[Anonymous Coward]

..Works for the US. Save the economy By Making Weapons !!

big is in germany!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Bagger 288 rulez!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEvfD4C6ow

Re:Except Komatsu is a Japanese company.

[benjamindees]

Others have better managers *of skilled workers* because they tend to pay decent wages and take a hands-off approach. But America has better managers of crap workers, because they tend to hire too many and utilize a lot of redundancies.

I've been saying for a while now that we should close the trade deficit by exporting American middle-managers to China.

Early US manufactured goods too

[dbIII]

Cheap mass produced crap is crap when the place making it is only just getting into mass production. Like it or not (and many people try to pretend I'm getting this wrong out of some sense of misplaced patriotism) in the 1950s the military "US" for unservicable was jokingly applied to cheap mass produced crap coming out of the USA by people in former colonies of the UK. That of course does not mean that everything being exported was crap. A lot of zinc die cast stuff was especially bad until efforts were made to improve quality control.

Catepillar already knows this

[gelfling]

I see the typical idiot USA bashing going on here but anyone who needs to use construction or mining equipment world wide already knows this. Likewise anyone dealing with oil and gas discovery-recovery and industrial farm equipment. But slashdot faux Marxists are free to buy those Angolan built passenger airplanes.

Re:Catepillar already knows this

[serviscope_minor]

But slashdot faux Marxists are free to buy those Angolan built passenger airplanes.

You may have heard of this small first world area of the globe with a high tech manufacturing base and a larger economy than the USA known as "Europe".

They also produce planes, and engines, which are entirely competitive with the USA produced ones. Look up Airbus and Rolls Royce engines. Given that Rolls Royce is a for profit company with a £11bn turnover and listed on a public stock exchange, it's a little bit of a stretch to call it "Marxist".

I see the typical idiot USA bashing going on here but anyone who needs to use construction or mining equipment world wide already knows this.

Well, Caterpillar certainly produce good stuff. But so do JCB and Komatsu. Both of those companies are also located in similar countries: high tech first world places. Again, if you think that the UK is a Marxist country, then I would very much like to know the name of your dealer since he's sold you some good stuff and I'd like some too.

Re:Catepillar already knows this

[gelfling]

They're not Marxist countries, but their apologists pretend to be.

Re:Catepillar already knows this

[serviscope_minor]

They're not Marxist countries, but their apologists pretend to be.

I really -seriously- have no idea what you are talking about. Would you care to explain?

Re:Catepillar already knows this

[dywolf]

yes. a whole entire continent has a bigger economy than the lone single country of the US of A. Barely. You showed him!

Re:Catepillar already knows this

[Bill_the_Engineer]

You may have heard of this small first world area of the globe with a high tech manufacturing base and a larger economy than the USA known as "Europe".

This wouldn't be the same Europe that has corporations opening production and engineering facilities in the southeastern United States?

As for the larger economy? Multiple countries versus a single country... sounds like a fair comparison.

Re:Catepillar already knows this

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes...but Rolls Royce buys a majority of there components for their engines from companies that produce the parts in the United States. I know because I work for one.

We make a majority of the parts that go into air planes engines and structures.

Re:Catepillar already knows this

[Anonymous Coward]

fine, lets compare the quality of high tech manufacturing in germany to the US. let us even neglect the population and resource advantage of the former. the german high tech industry for tools&shop, construction, and ag eqpt, aerospace and automotive, telecom, medicine certainly matches if not surpasses the us in many instances. and get this. it always has! fuck you useless jingoist americans are utterly incapable of an objective outlook on the world. your empire needs to fucking die. fyi, i'm an american, apparently, one of the few that can be objective about the us relationship with the world.

Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

The plans used mm as a dimension and the Yanks treat it an inches.

Full Disk Encryption

[brunes69]

My company requires full disk encryption on all laptops from the low levels up to the CEO... would be pretty difficult to get around this and install a trojan.

Frankly I don't understand why all companies don't require laptops to have FDE drives in them. It would help bring FDE onto more drives and bring the price premium down.

Big meals and big people too

[Anonymous Coward]

Super-size it please.

It was also pollution standards

[Quila]

The American car manufacturers said they couldn't comply with new pollution standards for years, and along comes Mr. Honda with his CVCC engine that already does, and without a catalytic converter.

Re:Except Komatsu is a Japanese company.

[PPH]

I've been saying for a while now that we should close the trade deficit by exporting American middle-managers to China.

Its a shame this story isn't true. Back when I was at the Lazy B, I had this article pinned up on my bulletin board. It got a lot of nervous looks (Boeing was just beginning to export work to China).

Re:Komatsu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Caterpillar doesn't militarize D9s or sell them to the IDF. The U.S. government does that. The only blame CAT deserves is for creating the most desirable product in the industry.

There are still robots

[Anonymous Coward]

All the big Cat and Komatsu trucks use electric final drives supplied by General Electric. All those babies are done by coil-winding robots.