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Ubuntu Community Manager: RMS's Post Seems a Bit Childish To Me
spacenet writes "As a response to RMS speaking out against Ubuntu about its privacy-violating integrated Amazon search results, which he considers to be spyware, Ubuntu Community Manager Jono Bacon has addressed RMS's statements. In his reply, Jono claims that Stallman's views on privacy do not align with Canonical's, that some of his statements are worded in order to 'generate fear, uncertainty, and doubt about Ubuntu' and that 'it just seems a bit childish to me.' The comments on the post itself are well worth a read."
I think we can agree that RMS can be childish. I was in the room when he broke into the room yelling at OSCON's Openoffice announcement. That's the way he is.
Even though I don't and never will agree with him 100% (that's worship) I am happy he's there, especially when there are thousands of people on the other side in IT yelling through coporate bullhorns constantly. His big mouth is a counterweight. If the braindead microsoft zombies that control IT in corporate america have heard of anyone's views it is probably his. I am not sure if Ubuntu is trying to become yet another Open Source company that is canibalized and eaten from inside by today's vile corporate belief system, but at least RMS let us know it COULD happen...
Now I'm being managed.... What another good linux distro? Anyone?
Because my privacy filter is disabling the commenting function of his...
The world wide web and half of the Internet is tracking itself to death.
But I'm using Debian and I wouldn't touch Ubuntu or any other closed source or privacy-invading OS with a ten foot pole.
Richard is an academic. He doesn't live in the real world and it doesn't help that he is probably a little looney. That said, he can be right on a lot of points and even if he's wrong if he opens up a discussion then you can still say he's done his bit.
If anything, I think Canonical's being a tad bit childish. They lock us out of alpha/beta test to develop in "secret", and are in the process of turning their OS into a shopping cart. What next?!? Close source the project? It's the very reason I'm typing this from my Kubuntu machine and loving it. :-)
Busted by RMS for adding spyware to Linux, which is not in doubt. Cue the defiant spin. Bad strategy. Ubuntu guys should talk less about their Apple envy and more about doing the right thing.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
When you say "just look at facebook" for a comparison of your privacy policies... you kinda prove RMS's point.
That which is not dead may eternal lie,and in strange aeons even death may die
Getting kinda old though
A post such as above reinfrorces every opinion I hold of Microsoft, its tactics, and its camp followers.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Doesn't Amazon pay Canonical if people make purchases? (I might be wrong about this -- if I am, please correct me.)
*If* Amazon does pay Canonical, and Bacon doesn't mention that in his post, I kind of feel like Bacon loses the argument. I mean, if they're getting paid, and he's making posts that say, "We're doing this only because we want you to have the best search experience," it seems a little disingenuous.
Now I'm being managed.... What another good linux distro? Anyone?
It is so trivial to disable (and remove) this "feature" that bitching about it is almost meaningless and indeed borderlines on childishness.
In reality, it is not much different that an ad-supported application (such as Opera had at one time), except with those, you didn't have the freedom to permanently remove the ad without paying up - which is not the case here.
And of course, no one is forcing anyone to download and install Ubuntu, unless of course you are interested in a fairly easy to install distro that works out of the box with most modern equipment - which is a great thing for the less technically savvy.
In short, this is a non-issue and RMS is (as expected) over-reacting to something that doesn't fit into his perfect Socialist software society.
RMS is a great man, but like many great men, sometimes he's a raving lunatic.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Ad-hominem. Your entire post is invalid.
The issue here is not to go to amazon.com, it's that everything you type in Ubuntu's search bar is sent to Canonical and to Amazon, whether you want Amazon search results or not. (Unless you manually disable it)
"If you can't get the message get the man" - Mel Gibson from an interview
I like how, in the previous RMS post to Slashdot, people were attacking him, even pointing out some disgusting behavior in the first few posts. It makes me wonder how many shill accounts exist just for this purpose, for Linux and FOSS articles a lot of the time sock puppets are the first to post and are usually OT and/or trolls.
The message is what matters, and in this matter I support what RMS has said.
Most people of high intelligence are also a bit eccentric somewhere in their lives. It's when they're very smart but poor we call them crazy.
âoeThe worst thing you can call someone is crazy, itâ(TM)s dismissive.â
- Dave Chappelle from inside the actors studio
Calling RMS crazy is a little bit like calling Hawking disgusting because he isn't sexually attractive to most and lacks something because of the way he delivers his speeches.
More and more people are driven today to admire the rich, pretty looking, but stupid vs. the eccentric ones with the wisdom and intelligence. It's like high school all over again.
IMO, Ubuntu is headed in the wrong direction. While they had or have money from Shuttleworth and/or others, they should buy up some companies selling proprietary software and liberate it by making it FOSS, in areas where Linux is weak, one example of something lacking is a good video editor, and I've tried them all, they all feel like shit and some crash often. There are many other proprietary programs of different function(s) which they could benefit from by buying and liberating. But instead they've gone the way of Unity and now this so-called spyware issue.
Thankfully Distrowatch points us to many other choices, Mint being one of them, for those of us who have had enough of these changes in Ubuntu while feeling the developers, or those who micro manage them are out of touch.
So goodbye, Ubuntu. I'll miss you. Maybe we'll see another rich individual put their money behind a distro and launch some real advertising in the media to awaken the sleeping Windows users.
OT:
U.N. report reveals secret law enforcement techniques
"Point 201: Mentions a new covert communications technique using software defined high frequency radio receivers routed through the computer creating no logs, using no central server and extremely difficult for law enforcement to intercept."
http://www.unodc.org/documents/frontpage/Use_of_Internet_for_Terrorist_Purposes.pdf
http://www.hacker10.com/other-computing/u-n-report-reveals-secret-law-enforcement-techniques/
I'm certainly somewhere in the middle and while I'm not going to say RMS is right about everything he has done more for us than anybody else. Canonical, Linus, and others are more or less in the way. The humorous part is Linus and various others are bitching about the SAME DAMM THINGS! Ok. So now we have Canonical doing something awful. It's not exactly Microsoft although it doesn't matter that much either. The reason is Canonical doesn't get free software and they have merely done a better job PR wise than Linsire, Novell, and some others. Canonical isn't going to make it. Not because they don't get free software (although that is part of the problem as to why they won't make it) but because they don't have a business model!
Canonical could have been successful with the desktop although they failed to develop the sales channels which would have made it a success and then went off in another direction entirely (servers, tablets, phones, enterprise support, etc). They needed to start small and develop an Ubuntu Software Center for hardware. Doing this alongside the software would have made them financially successful. What mark didn't understand when he asked the community about building a freedom friendly laptop was the community wasn't in a position to understand the benefits. It didn't matter though. The hardware needs to be freedom friendly if your going to target the masses even if your users don't understand what they are getting from it. Ultimately Ubuntu could have had a store with well supported hardware offering and something along the lines of Apple (except the exact opposite in some ways).
Humorously ThinkPenguin is basically going to eat Canonical's bread and butter. The difference is ThinkPenguin's funding the distributions rather than developing one itself. But they get that the hardware needs to be freedom friendly in order to support the masses.
Hmmm, I don't know if you've met many Jonathans but some abbreviate their name Jon, others Jono because it's less confusing than having people think your name is 'John'.
No different than being named Steve, Bob, Jim, Dave, Pete etc.
Is RMS wrong? It doesn't sound like it. I don't care if he's childish.
Both can be annoying and counter-productive when pushed to extremes. Yet, it's not necessarily bad to have them in the world.
What I still don't understand is why Ubuntu/Canonical wants to invest in this (dash) "experience" when, if you hold them to their stated goal, there are tons of other worthwhile efforts to engage in that need help. Why not leave the "find things that are interesting and relevant to you" to the billion-plus profit companies who have been doing this for over a decade online. When it is an OS vendors job to innovate in this area, unless they are talking out of the side of their mouths? One can only logically conclude they are doing this as a source of revenue, which is totally fine, however this apology is just another instance in which they say one thing and do another thing.
It's not that I would expect anything else from someone who is a "community manager" (FOSS' modern-day equivalent to the appendix, in my opinion), but this "personal blog entry" is, of course, a steaming turd. I don't see RMS spreading FUD about Ubuntu, not at all. In fact, he makes it quite clear what they get, in his opinion at least, wrong, and why he sees it that way - and he leaves nothing about that "in doubt" or, in one way or anther, vague. Discrediting this kind of honest and up-front criticism as FUD, whilst he himself is weasling around the true motives (turn desktop users into dollar bills for Canonical's pockets) for the Amazon integration with all that hey-everybody-let's-disregard-that-and-feel-good sidetracking that's going on in that posting really makes me nauseous. "Better user experience", "creating desirable products", yaddah yaddah - yeah, fine and dandy, but trying to sell us this (in my opionion pretty crazy) add-on, that submits all the text I enter - be it to start a new program or open a document I stored - to a web service the users absolutely don't control, as an improvement for the good of the general public is not only ridiculous, but also demeaning to the intelligence of everyone who they expect to fall for the kind of "argument" Jono Bacon is trying to make on his blog. It's the FOSS-equivalent to the Ask.com toolbar, or Bonzy Buddy "form filling" browser-add on from days of yore, that Windows users get shoved down their collective throats if they miss unchecking a box in popular "freeware" installation wizards these days, and everyone with half a brain can see right through that.
:%s/Open Source/Free Software/g
YTARY!
Former Ubuntu users to Ubuntu's community manager: "We former-users of your once-good distribution now think it sucks."
Let's see if they understand *that.*
If this were Usenet, I'd killfile the lot of you.
The tin foil hat concession in the room when these people rant about privacy. You should realize they're all in their own little tizzy because they can't stand being out of the limelight and for the sake of income. No drama = no $$.
Bad hygiene is one thing, opinions and ideas are another. I think that everyone should leave this video out of discussions about real issues. All it does is detract from the topic under discussion. If you want to fixate on that video start a blog and talk about it all that you want.
Argumentum ad pedem.
First they totally ignore user wishes by foisting Unity on previously happy Ubuntu users, with a "for your own good" attitude. Thank goodness there is Linux Mint is all I can say about the desktop nonsense.
Now Ubuntu are integrating privacy-destroying searches. Then they have the temerity to criticize the guy who inspired the ecosystem they depend on (and profit from), when he points out that what is good for Canonical is not good for the privacy of their users.
What a tragedy. Ubuntu's focus on ease of use was such a great leap forward for Linux usability. Now they've lost the plot and forgot about their constituency, instead trying to drive more and more revenue with things the user's don't actually want.
It used to be, "In order for Microsoft to 'win', the customer must lose". You could extend that to "In order for Canonical to win, the customer must lose". You could then generalize that (as RMS does) to "In order for $COMPANY to win, the customer must lose". There are still some companies around that actually care about their employees and users (not just paying lip service to it), but that number is clearly decreasing. RMS is right to call them out for ignoring user desire for privacy (privacy should be the default, with effort to opt-in).
Jono has what seems a reasonable post. He never addresses RMS' assertion not that searches go to Amazon, but that your files and folders that are also searched also have metadata submitted to Canonical (and then presumably, portions go to Amazon). Jono never dismisses this citing stuff about "personal preference" instead. It would be nice if Canonical came out with a statement saying that they don't transfer information from your searched files and folders to Amazon, because they haven't yet (at least not in my reading of Jono's post). Until Canonical prove otherwise it appear that RMS is completely right in this issue.
The truth is Ubuntu will not continue to exist unless they can make money. This isn't the first strategy they've tried.
As much as I despise the "feature," I'd rather have to disable some settings when I install than to not have Ubuntu (and its derivatives.)
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
That pointed out that the emperor had no clothes?
"Bertrand Russell was so inept, physically, that he could never learn to make a pot of tea."
"Immanuel Kant could not manage to sharpen a quill pen with a penknife."
"John Stuart Mill could barely tie a simple knot."
Who cares? They are not fameous for that.
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
It's famous, idoit!
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
Stallman is very much more concerned with how his software is made than what it can do. That's an attitude that's the mirror image of pretty much the rest of the human race. He has constructed an elitist pedestal of pseudo-morailty around software development and placed himself on top of it. Free software has obvious advantages in terms of spreading technique, etc., but Stallman's trashings of anyone who does not adhere to his gospel is demagoguery at its finest.
I'm much more offended by the clutter and annoyance of Ubuntu's lens feature than I am by the supposed offense of the product's becoming one of millions of Amazon Associates. Ubuntu is trying to make a bit of cash, and that seems to offend a lot of people much more than any perceived violation of the Stallman Code.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
No, I'm not.
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
Well i would far rather have the RMS version .. The Ubuntu people need to quit with the Apple /MS tactics
Like you I too like (liked?) Ubuntu but I'm not going to be moving on from 12.04 due to the disagreeable features being add. Yes they can currently apparently be turned off but I don't want to be messing like that. Question is where to move to.
When you grow up and realize what the real world is like, you'll quickly realize that information can in fact be owned, and that it's important for this to occur for numerous reasons which you apparently fail to grasp. No amount of pseudo-techno-philosophy you choose to fill your head with will change how the world works, nor will it stop you from going to jail if you suddenly decide something belongs to you which doesn't.
Thinking you're more enlightened than the rest of society despite an overwhelming majority of them disagreeing with you is usually the first sign of a delusional mind. It's common in those who feel they should be able to have what other people possess, as a matter of fact.
Ubuntu is ultimately there for Canonical's profit. We thought we could work with folks like that, but obviously we were too optimistic. The goals of the Free Software community are important, and will only be achieved if people like you devote your free time to making the non-profits work as the direct path to users.
Bruce Perens.
There's a difference between "truth" and "attention-seeking tactless public outbursts." There's quite a few organizations and professionals out there who will deliver the former, where as RMS only delivers the latter. Censorship is not an issue, because anyone can still go to his website if they want to see the ramblings of a delusional man, much the same as one can find websites of all the truthers and birthers elsewhere if that's what they're after.
The manager doesn't have a good reply or defense so lets just call RMS names.
(With a nod to Ghandi...)
These days, he simply revises the GPL whenever a company (like Tivo) sends him into one of his rages.
Considering that there's only been three versions, and version one basically never saw the light of day, and version two was considered The GPL for over a quarter of a century, I think you're more than exaggerating. In fact, I think you're trolling.
Or maybe you're right, and RMS has only had one rage in the last thirty years--but then why say "one of his rages"?
Basically, your post seems to be logic-free. But hey, at least we don't have to worry about you revising any of your major contributions to the world every time you fly into one of your little rages. That would require that you make at least one.
thats easy - move to mint
i did so when they introduced unity and never regretted it
Yes you are, back in the cart
You might consider Trisquel...it is FSF endorsed as a distribution that meets its guidelines: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html Trisquel is akin to a Ubuntu with the non-free elements removed so it shouldn't be too much of a culture shock for you should you opt to use it. Further distributions with FSF approval are on the following link as is the link to obtain Trisquel: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
It's only an ad hominem if it's part of a logical argument. I didn't notice any, although maybe something is implied.
You mean like Gobuntu or gNewSense? The versions of Ubuntu that only contain free software? The ones that if you install on a laptop you have a 75% chance of not having wi-fi?
RMS's demands end up being unworkable. Although he's had a pretty good track record for being right, any "free software only" distro ends up being limiting.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
No, RMS has a valid complaint.
The concept of being more useful to the consumer is fine. After all, we ALL buy things online. Most of us use the computer for ecommerce of some sort. a feature that makes it easier would be useful.
However, its not the what, but the how which make this pretty dangerous to your freedoms:
1. The user doesn't have a choice of the backend. They don't have the right to select the online purchase service of choice. This is going to make the Ubuntu experiance as one giant advertisement to get you to buy partner related shit-you-don't-need.
2. Targeted ads, at the operating system level. While targeted ads are good, as they reduced the obnoxious system destroying ads of 10 years ago, they do so by spying on the users habit, and compiling dossiers on users. These profiles are then bought and sold on the open market. They are the biggest gross violation of privacy that perhaps exists today.
At least a few specialize in identifying complainers, and critics(silencing them?), to companies.
Having this at the OS level, would make Ubuntu 13.04 potentially worse than MS Windows on the default install for privacy. This is certainly an entire OPERATING SYSTEM on par with the shovelware(removable) that comes with windows.
Instead of selling you an operating system, or selling you service and support on an opperating system. Ubuntu is now selling YOU to the advertising/PR Companies, and through them, anyone else who has the money to pay.
On the bright side, there are more GNU/Linux distro choices, and it should be easy to remove the spyware via apt.
http://linuxmint.com
Most posts like that are explicitly done to discredit, in the hopes that people ignore everything he says.
Right, move to Mint, a parasite of Ubuntu.
Just use Ubuntu with a different UI - I use and like Gnome Shell, but there's XFCE, KDE, etc., etc.
...or closed source LAN drivers and non-free qt? Oh, that's right... those aren't problems anymore. Contemplate the short term inconvenience and long term gains required to bring about that state of affairs. If you accept "kinda good enough today" that's all you'll ever have.
Ubuntu is a bastard child. It should be lost on no one that the money Mr Shuttleworth has put into it is an investment, not a donation. Yet libre software licensing is not structured primarily to make money, it is structured to promote knowledge, and science. Attempting to monetize Debian (excuse me 'Ubuntu') is like trying to milk a Gorilla. Possible, but not pretty. Or easy. And nearly impossible to do and keep your hands clean.
'Lighten up', you say. But that is the whole point. Most of us do have compromising minds. Yes, I confess, I loaded the Nvidia binary blob. It is easy and natural for me to lighten up. Believe me I can live with myself.
But... If RMS had a compromising mind there would not be a vibrant open source universe, or at least not the one we have. (Although there would no doubt still be some sort of fuzzy academic open computing something.) The day he could not get those specs to write his modified printer driver is the day he saw -- in a flash -- the science of computing being swallowed by business. And boy was he right. He could have cashed in like so many others. Or shrugged it off like I would. But he put his obsessive uncompromising Asbergerish hairy soiled foot down and fought to create an intellectual space for computing that was free from the kind of proprietary sandboxing that hobbles progress in every field (But which makes sh*tloads of money -- Not a bad thing either). Very few people would fight as hard as RMS has to NOT make money. Amazingly many others saw the utility and necessity of what he was doing and joined him. So now, when a lab needs a specialized computing application they don't have to buy it. (They can of course.) They can build it.
RMS is not being childish in regard to Ubuntu's recent play. He is just being RMS. Monetizing open source software by crippling it is like charging for slide rides on a public playground. It's wrong. (Even if you fix and wax the slide.) Buy an empty lot. Build your own slide. Sell all the rides you want.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
"Now, some of you may share Richardâ(TM)s concerns over some aspects of this feature, and as I mentioned earlier, I am not here to convince you otherwise. Richard has every right to share his views on privacy, and who am I to tell him or you that he is/you are wrong?"
RMS quotes:
"In your Software Freedom Day events, in your FLISOL events, donâ(TM)t install or recommend Ubuntu. Instead, tell people that Ubuntu is shunned for spying."
Back to Bacon:
"These statements simply generate fear, uncertainty, and doubt about Ubuntu; a project that has a long history of bringing Free Software to millions of users around the world with an open community and governance."
1. RMS believes the feature constitutes spyware as I don't think anyone doubts.
2. You seem to believe he has every right to his views "who am I to tell him or you that he is/you are wrong?"
Then I fail to see how in the same breath you can assert his statement regarding being shunned for spying is childish and communicating FUD rather than the legitimate beliefs of RMS with which you agree he is entitled and with which you disagree.
To make matters worse you have resorted to an unproductive personal attack by asserting his remarks are "childish".
When you grow up and realize what the real world is like, you'll quickly realize that slaves can in fact be owned, and that it's important for this to occur for numerous reasons which you apparently fail to grasp. No amount of pseudo-humantary-philosophy you choose to fill your head with will change how the world works, nor will it stop you from going to jail if you suddenly decide something belongs to you which doesn't.
Thinking you're more enlightened than the rest of society despite an overwhelming majority of them disagreeing with you is usually the first sign of a delusional mind. It's common in those who feel they should be able to have what other people possess, as a matter of fact.
The same argument could have been used by the average person not that much ago, yet it looks grotesque nowadays.
No, I'm not saying that "IP" is slavery. I'm saying that these arguments are nothing but a reflection of the prejudices of the time.
Dilbert RSS feed
Oooh you've got the lost verse of Monty Python's Philosopher's Song
Oh what Nietzsche couldn't teach'ya 'bout the raising of the wrists! Socrates Himself was Permanently Pissed!
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
Lay off RMS, he's our John the Baptist, while billg is obviously lucifer, the fallen one who took Linus..er, I mean Jesus, up on high and offered him the whole world, if he only worshiped billg and acknowleged him as the one true software architect .. :)
AccountKiller
Maybe that's just a tactic to avoid fanboys and to be able to take some rest ?
Ownership of goldfish didn't go from normally accepted to abhorrent, so no, I couldn't use it.
But the same argument applied to goldfish would in fact be as asinine as to software or humans. My goal is pointing out the flaw in the argument, not necessarily say that software can or cannot be owned.
It's all about priorities.
No. Nothing in the discussion about software ownership prevents a discussion on ownership of goldfish, so there's no point in prioritizing one over the other.
IMHO, the debate over ownership of software is way down below ownership of domesticated animals, and fish.
That's like saying we should only worry about a crime if there aren't any worse being committed. It's a red herring, nothing more.
Dilbert RSS feed
I'm leaving Ubuntu too. Been a faithful user since 6.06. Typical reasons for leaving. And Mint seems to be the likely destination ... Goodbye Ubuntu
Of the lefty flavor, but no matter that. He's not dealing with the reality of human behavior, which is, "I'd like to get paid for writing this software." or "laying those bricks" or "baking that delicious pie." All software free for all people all the time is the pipe dream of a teenager. Capitalism flourishes for a reason.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
It's only an ad hominem if it's part of a logical fallacy.
Fixed that for you.
I didn't notice any ...
Well, now you know what to look for.
Linux owes EVERYTHING to the heart, idealism and intellect of free men choosing to cooperate. Yes, corporations make valuable contributions, but that is because they cannot deny the value of what the free software movement has created. If the corporations had had their way, there never would have been a linux in anything like its present form and spirit, and CERTAINLY nothing remotely like the triumph of Gnu.
Not sure what you are trying to do minimizing Gnu. If all linux owed to Gnu was gcc, then Gnu would have been the absolutely vital enabling agent, but it owes MUCH more than that. Gnu utilities are in every single case vastly superior to the BSD ones. Yes, they are standing on the shoulders of BSD giants, but when BSD saw their userland as basically finished, Gnu saw an almost infinite number of enhancements and improvements to be made, and delivered.
... or you could just use debian you know, the distribution ubuntu is based off of.
Shadus
... but in this particular case he is very right.
It IS spyware exactly how we've seen it in windows for ages. It's default-on which makes it no better than all the spyware that comes packaged with software. If it was default-off and asked at first boot/during install/whatever if it could be enabled I would have no issue.
The way it presently is setup is just dirty like all spyware.
Shadus
...and yet he's also contributed so much to the field and been right often enough that people pay notice to what he has to say.
404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
"If you are implying somebody (e.g. Symbolics) could "own" information, then you already lost all your credibility, before you even started."
Says the anonymous coward. Slashdot isn't what it used to be, but it's still a goldmine of unintentional irony.
I've been a big fan of the FSF since around 90/91 when Peter Norton's speech introduced me to them. RMS has done tremendous things for free software. But overly aggressive and unbalanced criticism doesn't help the causes he is advocating. If the person being critiqued believes that charges are (1) simply wrong on the facts and then (2) exaggerated in the effects they just ignore the criticism. One or the other can be effective, both just comes off as unhinged.
I hate to say this, but this is becoming pattern for RMS.
He also childishly started the free software movement and wrote the original GPL, which he revises when he thinks it's broken in some way.
A lot of what he writes annoys me, I think his views are very black-and-white and have an overly idealised slant. I also think he's right quite often though, as in this case, and is able to raise the profile of things such as this a lot better than those of who seem to care what others think of them would be able to do so.
There is a reason that stories about him are posted by the tech media.
404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
Or just use Debian... which Ubuntu is a parasite of. :)
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
..and it'd have been so hard for Canonical to disable them by default in order not to annoy their target users? Did they really think that the people who'd choose Linux over Window or OS X on their desktop were the type to happily accept advertisements in their operating systems?
You're right though that extremists do come in all sizes, shapes, and colours. At the time the views of someone like Martin Luther King were pretty damn extreme.
404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
Now, you're being childish. [grin] :P
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
That would be HURD, right?
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Folks, may I suggest Linux Mint 14 MATE?
Just change the sickly lime green out, add a launchbar and you have the old Ubuntu experience we
USED to love. What a breath of Fresh air!
I think RMS' views generated more awareness than FUD. Honestly, I'm not satisfied by Jono Bacon's rebuttal. He says:
No mention of enhancing privacy?
Why do local searches send search queries over the web without the user's knowledge or consent?
When I use a web browser, I assume everything I do is sent over the web. When I do a local search on my computer, I don't expect any information about my search to hit the web. How is sending local search data over the web safe or predictable?
So inform the user of what is about to happen and allow them to proceed or opt out, and remember that setting. Everybody's happy.
I rarely bother to log in, much less comment anymore, but I felt compelled to do so on this subject.
For context: I read the initial writeup and source article on RMS' take on Canonical's actions a few days ago here on Slashdot, as well as Mr. Bacon's response today. I've also been a happy, but increasingly disappointed Ubuntu user for a number of years now. I write this on my 10 year old laptop that hasn't had a working hard drive in 5 years (maybe 6?). This machine runs on a Kubuntu Fiesty Live CD, and my desktop dual boots Win7 and Ubuntu 12.04.
As a long-time Free Software enthusiast, I can tell you that RMS pisses me off nearly as often as I begrudgingly agree with him. I am hardly alone in that opinion of him.
Anyway, I've been less than thrilled with the Unbuntu-proper releases for the last couple of years now. Its just a simple case of the design team taking the distro in a direction that decreasingly suits my tastes, particularly on the desktop. I am not a fan of Unity. I begrudgingly used it on my desktop machine for about 2 years, and even after I got used to it, I still didn't like it. The default environment just, I dunno -- it pisses me off. And its gotten increasingly annoying to me in the last couple of releases. That alone is fine. I'm sure there are many users that like things better now. Aside from the desktop environment itself, Ubuntu distros have never failed me in terms of working well with my hardware, which is more than I can say for a couple of distros (which have probably caught up in the prevailing years for all I know.). My weird Wifi and graphics hardware just works. Thats freakin' sweet! My desktop machine currently runs Kubuntu 12.04 because I just got tired of the Unity crap. However I'm likewise not thrilled with KDE at the moment. Plasma and the file manager are only marginally less annoying to me. It pisses me off for similar, but different reasons. That's another story. I realize that I have other options within the Ubuntu ecosystem in regards to Desktop Environment, and I'm also quite aware I have options in switching distributions altogether. That isn't really my gripe.
For all that, and back on topic: RMS is totally right on this one. Yeah, he called out Ubuntu in a pretty blunt way, but it is what it is and RMS is famous for that same tone. That's sort-of Stallman's self-appointed job. It is on him to hold the highest ideal for Free Software and bark loudly when it seems something runs afoul. None of us are surprised. Mr. Bacon's retort (if you can call it that), is simply unsatisfactory because it doesn't really address the issue. If Mr. Bacon had simply accepted that the default behavior of the dash is unfavorable to the user and promised to have it reconsidered, if not changed, that would have been _something_. My personal view is that the Amazon thing should be opt-in, and even that isn't ideal, but I'd be willing to accept that and not get hung up on it.
RMS is many things, but childish and/or short-sighted are not the first words that come to my mind, even though I'm certainly not his biggest fan. I have a slightly looser requirements from my Linux distributions than those recommended by the FSF. For example, I don't really mind loading a binary blob driver from Nvidia so that I can actually use my graphics hardware. Ideologically, RMS is right, but I have shit to do NOW. We can fight the hardware/driver problem later.
At the end of the day, I will strongly consider moving from Ubuntu altogether because this is just the last straw for me. Not really for ideological reasons, but it just isn't usable for me anymore. I've never tried Mint, but enough commenters have spoken favorably of it for me to give it a go. I greatly appreciate what Canonical has done to try to bring Linux to the masses, as it were, but I feel that over time they have deviated from the spirit of what they originally set out to do. I can no longer support Canonical if they choose to continue along this path, and deeply feel that making 'sneaky' decisions like this one
What could possibly hurt the security of the American people more than giving our own government the ability to hide its
Just curious is http or https used to upload the spy payload to canonical?
And when you purchase, is the purchase actually going to Amazon without going through Canonical's servers, or is Canonical also sent a notification from your spyware of your purchase?
I thought linux was seen as more trustworthy than windows but this hurts it. As someone said, this is exporting a naive young gamer's mentality onto every single person in the world who might find a linux desktop useful. Anybody / any corp/governent with a sniffer and other data to aggregate can make whatever use they want of your private information. As an example imagine someone in a divorce case I could imagine a lawyer being able to obtain info that you were searching for singles sites. Or someone living under an oppressive regime searching for great firewall proxies, or religious sites, or whatever community or product, it is immoral and potentially dangerous for them to use a computer that is constantly reporting their searches to at least two companies (canonical and amazon) at all times.
If you want to stop it, you should get journalist to pick up on it and maybe initiate a government inquiry. I could even see foreign countries' governments getting upset that local queries are sent to U.S. firms without notification! Someone tell the German government they are usually interested in this sort of thing.
... when everybody and their dog started meaning "Ubuntu" when they said "Linux" - I actually can remotely detect cancer in things that way hah. Not to mention the name "Canonical" -- wait, you mean you get to compile the canon out of what others made? Bullshit, that's my fucking job! But I digress. So now someone pointed out that sending local searches to amazon by default and without option or warning is fucking stupid, and instead of saying "Yes, you are correct, thanks for pointing that out", they're now crying and calling foul, while engaging in ad-hominems? What a bunch of poopyheads!
One thing softens the extreme rage I feel right now; I like how the summary mentions the comments on it to be interesting, not the actual article - haha! Canonical, stop hitting yourself.
The Canonical spokesman needlessly insulted children by equating Stallman's rant to theirs.
Linux Mint *is* basically Ubuntu with a different UI...and codecs...or rather, it's Ubuntu with the *original* UI.
Also, using Ubuntu with a different DE means you're still using Ubuntu. The GP specifically stated he didn't want to support what Canonical is doing. While what you're saying may be easier (I myself recently installed both and was surprised to find that it was actually easier in Ubuntu than Mint this time around), that's not what we're talking about here.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Directly quoted from wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyware )
"Spyware is a type of malware (malicious software) installed on computers that collects information about users without their knowledge"
"Sometimes, spyware is included along with genuine software, and may come from an official software vendor"
Ubuntu community folks are very good at public relations. However, if you look past their lovely sales speech, it is spyware. I would be more tolerant if the feature would be opt-in rather than opt-out. Making it opt-out defines it as spyware as un-informed users don't know their data is being collected and published on the internet.
I always loved Ubuntu and have sold it to many of my friends. I am sad to see this great product go down the road it is going now. I am running 12.04 LTS right now and monitoring the outcome of this issue. I really hope Canonical can come to their senses and listen to their community. No-one wants this! Read the forums and blog posts! I am seriously considering moving to Mint if they continue down that path.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ubuntu+linux&word2=linux+mint
I glossed through Jono's response and it looks like a bunch of standard manipulative corporate PR-speak, he waffles a lot of marketing-speak like "the goal of the dash in Ubuntu has always been to provide a central place in which you can search and find things that are interesting and relavent to you; it is designed to be at the center of your computing experience blah blah blah" and makes vague insinuations about the 'accuracy' of RMS's statements, calling it FUD and using ad hominem attacks like "childish" --- but nowhere does he actually bother to deny the core claim - that personal local searches are sent to the servers online. In fact, he appears to be defending the idea of doing so, claiming that not liking this is merely a subjectively "different" "privacy" preference of individuals.
I once rogered a lawyer named Sue. Does that count?
I always wondered what happened to that guy after he got into the fistfight with his old man.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
... or an adult being named 'Jono'.
Requiem for the American Dream
And William Franklin Graham, Jr. refers to himself as "Billy".
You were saying...?
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Ad hominem attacks are the first refuge of a playground bully (e.g. it's the primary MO of the US Tea Party). That an Ubuntu Manager makes such an attack in a remark on a community-oriented pioneer like Stallman immediately marks the attacker, not the attacked.
Canonical made a big mistake (doing this without a thorough, public discussion), they doubled down on their mistake, and now they're taking cheap potshots at a major community figure. They're hurting themselves and FOS. Unprofessional, uncool, and unhelpful. Bad week.
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
There are many distributions: openSUSE, Fedora, Mint are common ones.
this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
Lately, a lot of comments on RMS state 'he is a nut, but he is right...'. So why not stop calling him a nut and instead, state that in current world we live in only what he is trying to do is nuts.
Yes they can currently apparently be turned off but I don't want to be messing like that.
It's not too difficult: sudo apt-get remove unity-lens-shopping
That said, I still agree with you. Once an OS starts to have a ton of stuff you have to turn off upon install/reinstall, I tend to want to use something else.
And if you make sure everyone in the production of a good earns a fair sustainable wage, the product ends up more expensive. It is so limiting to respect human rights in your production process. Far easier if you can just say you think human rights are right but walk all over them in practice.
RMS is not saying that closed software doesn't have its attractions but that ultimately you may regret your choice. It remains funny to me that it took Apple to proof that Android didn't really need to bend over for the closed source security risk that is Flash after all. So much for iOS being limiting because it excluded a closed source piece of software.
RMS is not talking about the easy way out, he is telling you that the easy way out might end up costing you. You are free to ignore him but it keeps amazing me how many people who are normally privacy nutters scream and rage against RMS for telling them what they themselves rant about.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
As an Ubuntu user I would like to bring the following data point to your attention:
- I use Linux since '95.
- I work full-time producing FOSS licensed code;
- if it wasn't for Ubuntu, I would be running OSX.
Have a nice day,
The way this has been portrayed by Stallman as spyware, and as a springboard into objecting that Ubuntu contains non-free programs just smacks of whining. Anyone who objects to those things can simply remove them or use an alternative dist.
Wi-fi on free distros also works in all the supported configurations. My point is that people claim that the OS must work fine in every possible machine to be successful, when Apple shows that's not true.
It wasn't a dig at Apple, by the way.
Dilbert RSS feed
What a bunch of nonsense. Really.
It's amazing that you link to a video where the text of the song appears on the screen and yet still manage to misquote it.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
On this specific instance, RMS does seem have a point. I don't see any good reason why a local search for something should trigger an Amazon search. And I do care about my privacy a bit more than the average person, just judging from the amount of personal information many of them voluntarily talk about on their Facebook pages or whatnot. But privacy is not infinitely valuable. Controlling the flow of information takes effort, and depending on the parties and information involved, this can be more effort than it's worth. As a meatspace experiment, next time you go grocery shopping, try to do so without any of the other customers seeing what items you're purchasing. Is it worth the bother?
Mind you, I'm talking about the subject in general. As I said, in this specific case, I think RMS is mostly right, albeit using over-the-top rhetoric. I don't want my local search for "spock.jpg" resulting in Amazon hawking more Star Trek DVDs to me.
"The Greens lynched a hacker in Chicago. Last month, but I think the body's still hanging from the old Water Tower."
Came to exactly the same conclusion. There was no refutation of the actual claims, only attacking Mr. Stallman and his article. His PR puff piece only convinces me RMS is right. The "we want to be like Apple" is not a good argument as most Ubuntu users are users because they prefer it in its current form to Apple and Microsoft. And the "well Facebook is able to get away with privacy violations" is not exactly inspiring either. With rot like this in the core of the organisation it's a bit worrying for the future of Ubuntu.
Canonical should just create an Amazon "app" in their software store, that makes it easier to search than just going to amazon.com. Give some extra value and earn their affiliate fee. Not easy as Amazon is already pretty slick to use. Perhaps also integrate results from other book sellers?
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
What a tragedy. Ubuntu's focus on ease of use was such a great leap forward for Linux usability. Now they've lost the plot and forgot about their constituency, instead trying to drive more and more revenue with things the user's don't actually want.
Does anyone want Facebook? How is it that Facebook is free?
When users want "privacy", they want to make sure that their location isn't tracked ... until they want to be able to share that with their friends and know where there is an available parking space. To say that by sacrificing our privacy we will have a much richer lifestyle is a tautology by this point. For example, it's happened more than once that I found someone on the Internet using a service that they didn't expressly consent to, and they were delighted that I found them because they had been looking for me and were unable to find me. What was more important -- that I respected their privacy, or that we have a newly-kindled friendship?
When RMS talks about "privacy", keep in mind the monk-like lifestyle he leads. http://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
I'd be willing to accept an "apples and oranges" rejoinder.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Um... I assume you mean out of the box since you can add anything you want to pretty much any distro to get wifi going. In my personal, completely anecdotal experience having wifi working right out of the box 75% of the time would be a tremendous improvement from the main Ubuntu, or pretty much any OS that doesn't come pre-installed!
Not that I would really want to limit myself to "free software only". About your example... I'm just saying..
Really? Honestly Ubuntu users, if you don't want something that is like Apple why are you still using Ubuntu? Ubuntu variants I can see because Ubuntu is really good at hardware detection and ease of setup but if you wanted to get away from the Apple feel you should have trashed Ubuntu proper a long long time ago! IMHO
Mint Debian Edition? Unless you feel that's just a parasite of Debian but that would be dumb because if it is then so is Ubuntu AND Debian encourages that sort of thing anyway!
...considering the fact that Linux was virtually unknown outside the server room before Canonical came along and started polishing it up...
You think Canonical has gotten Linux on the desktop? Have you had some Bigfoot sightings or found the Loch Ness monster?
Linux remains unknown outside the server room and on mobile devices like cell phones and tablets. (and on the mobile devices most people don't even know linux is involved) Even the most optimistic estimates of desktop market share I can find put linux at less than 2% with little evidence of that changing anytime soon. The ONLY thing that will get linux serious desktop market share is if it starts shipping pre-loaded on PCs in large quantities and I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Outside of a few geeks like us here on slashdot, NOBODY is installing Linux in place of Windows.
Canonical has no business collecting information from local searches, none. The Amazon integration must be for some sort of revenue stream for Canonical (and I do commend them for supplying a mainstream distribution to promote open source software), but they are approaching it the wrong way. If they added the feature as an option that the user could install at will, that would be better than enabling the feature from the start without the user knowing exactly what it does. This is like software I've seen on Windoze such as HP printer software that installs toolbars in Internet Exploder without the user choosing to do so. Canonical should bundle the distributions similar to Red Hat and offer stable distributions with support. Red Hat has paved the way for creating a successful distribution that generates revenue. There's no reason other distributions can't follow suit.
I got a bit queasy reading Jono's post, with the corporate-speak, hand-waving, and magical feel-good thinking.
RMS's statement was well-reasoned and dispassionately delivered. He understands his role in the community and he executed this action perfectly.
Canonical: Fix the offending code, apologize to the community, fire the decision-makers involved.
For my part, I've used Ubuntu almost exlusively for a couple of years now, but have always known the day would come when I need to start looking for alternatives because of corporate overreach.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
This retort appears quite well reasoned, but on reflection is actually a lesson in deflection. Nowhere does he address the specific issue of the Amazon data scraping. By contrast RMS does address it (it is the source of his gripe). He simply (politely) attacks RMS and accuses him of FUD, and avoids the particulars of RMS's complaint. Very slippery.
Never.
I've just lost all respect for Jono for throwing away his principles for money. There is *no* reason for searches of local files on a home computer to be sent across the internet. There's not even a technical reason for doing this.
Jono says: "The challenge of course is that privacy is a deeply personal thing and the way in which you define your privacy expectations will likely radically differ from each of your friends, and vice-versa."
What I consider an appropriate level of privacy should be defined by me, not by another company. It should be telling that the only quotes Jono selects come at the end of RMS' rant and he doesn't do anything to address the main issues brought up.
Only 1 person came to Ubuntu's defense, but the rest seem ready to bring out the torches and pitchforks!
You access SlashDot, you see ads (that go to ad agencies that compile data about you). You can disable it, under certain circumstances.
In Ubuntu, you see ads if you search for music etc. You're able to disable it.
In either case, a compute resource tracks something about you - and you can cause it not to. How is this different? Because on a website we've just kind of given up, and accept that our privacy will be "violated"?
"Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh
The problem is, although I'm a Mint user, I still had to search through countless pages just to find your post telling how to disable it.
I've seen many tech journalists over the years make the (reasonable) point that the multiplicity of Linux distributions hinders the popularity of Linux in some ways.
This situation is one place where those tech journalists are wrong.
Since there are choices, I will be choosing something other than Ubuntu when I replace my system in the spring.
I've been using Ubuntu since it first came out, but I found Unity to be too obnoxious and now this built in "spyware"/integration with Amazon.
Pass the MINTs ( KDE version ) please ....
On the other hand, accept "non-functional today, but I promise tomorrow it will be amazing!" then that's all you'll ever have, too.
People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
"Monetizing open source software by tainting it" would have been a bit better way to phrase it.
And I agree that the Ubuntu project has been very positive for Linux on the desktop. (Compromising sleazeball that I am I just installed Linux Mint Nadia on a recent project.) And also it is clear that Canonical has managed to remain pretty decent in general as they try to walk the perilous moral tightrope they have chosen to walk. And Android is a satisfying win for the open model (But not for Google's bottom line last time I checked). So how do you measure win? And I get that there is a dynamic process going between open source and for-profit activities that is not a bad thing. All your points are very well taken. I do get it. But I have a compromising mind. So I can get it.
But RMS has styled himself a zealot, or is naturally a zealot. He won't get it. For him all that commercial activity is a dangerous cancer. And it is right and good for him to be there seeing the world that way. Because Libre software rocks like a rowboat in a riptide. And I doubt there would be such a vibrant FOSS movement without him. And, so, no magic well for the rest of us to taint.
"No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
Fucking right. I gave up running Linux as a primary OS because I got suckered into the promise of things getting better - and they did, in some ways, while in others things went backwards (general stability of software is IMHO WORSE than 5-10 years ago).
At some point it just makes sense to stick with a mature, winning solution, which in my case is Windows 7.
These new online Ubunt ufeatures don't help me, but they do not harm me either.
I wish Ubuntu success. I am a loyal fan.