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Makerbot Cracks Down On 3D-Printable Gun Parts
Sparrowvsrevolution writes in with a story at Forbes about Makerbot deleting gun component blueprints on Thingiverse. "In the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut shootings, the 3D-printing firm Makerbot has deleted a collection of blueprints for gun components from Thingiverse, its popular user-generated content website that hosts 3D-printable files. Though Thingiverse has long banned designs for weapons and their components in its terms of service, it rarely enforced the rule until the last few days, when the company's lawyer sent notices to users that their software models for gun parts were being purged from the site. Gun control advocates were especially concerned about the appearance of lower receivers for semi-automatic weapons that have appeared on Thingiverse. The lower receiver is the the 'body' of a gun, and its most regulated component. So 3D-printing that piece at home and attaching other parts ordered by mail might allow a lethal weapon to be obtained without any legal barriers or identification. Makerbot's move to delete those files may have been inspired in part by a group calling itself Defense Distributed, which announced its intention to create an entirely 3D-printable gun in August and planned to potentially upload it to Thingiverse. Defense Distributed says it's not deterred by Makerbot's move and will host the plans on its own site."
remove something from the internet.
However they feel about gun parts personally, being involved in distributing them could one day be a very bad thing. It's best to leave that to special-purpose sites.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
a group calling itself Defense Distributed, which announced its intention to create an entirely 3D-printable gun
Shields and armor are defensive, guns aren't.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
The National Firearms Act says that you can't make a "firearm" without a tax payment. I'm sure this is more about tax evasion than safety.
What this will do long term is make the gun control debate a mute point. If bad guys can print guns anyways (illegal or not) then why prevent law abiding citizens from buying guns legally to protect themselves?
They probably need to know what Defense Distributed is up to, if they aren't already investigating them.
"The lower receiver is the the 'body' of a gun, and its most regulated component. So 3D-printing that piece at home and attaching other parts ordered by mail might allow a lethal weapon to be obtained without any legal barriers or identification." This is true, but to print a receiver without a federal firearms manufacturing license is a felony. I can mill one out of aluminum without a 3d printer, it would last a lot longer, but that doesn't make it legal. In general, most "bad" things that people can do with a firearm, are already illegal.
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
How very trendy of them.
It seems that absolutely no one is above using this tragedy for getting attention for themselves and their own gain.
It's like they say; a politician should never fail to take advantage of a disaster.
A QUEUE is when you line up for service. A CUE is a signal for someone to say their line.
and pay for it with bitcoin.
That depends how shitful your government or neighbourhood is
It's not like they are actually stopping it, it will happen either way, this way at least people notice and aren't too surprised afterwards.
...and routes around it.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Ban knives, nail guns and alcohol. Do it for the childrennnnnn!
No I think the common sense would be recognizing that printing the lower receiver with FDM techniques. Would produce a part that is extremely prone to catastrophic failure, not a working component.
Knowing the limitations of the technology and that FDM is probably about as good as its ever going to get. Makes all of the concerns about someone stockpiling FDM printed guns pure FUD.
So, the police shouldn't have guns? And neither should the government? Sounds good to me.
You only have to have a manufacturing license if you wish to transfer the created firearm to another party. You can make any firearm you want as long as it does not fall under the NFA (can not be easily modified to fire more than one bullet per trigger pull, is not intentionally quieted, etc.), and you do not give it to anyone else. There is a large market in 80% complete receivers. You buy a piece of metal then bend and drill it a bit with a vice and drill press and you have an AK receiver. Order the rest online with no checks. You can also get almost finished aluminium blanks for AR receivers and mill them as you said.
You are correct in saying that most bad things people can do with a firearm are illegal. Making a firearm isn't a bad thing. Make as many as you like, just don't kill people with them.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
Seriously, how could it possibly be a good idea to let *anyone* print their own lethal weapon.
Sudden and massive outbreak of self serving false concern is more like it.
Sadly, I'm already worn down and becoming too tired to try to explain common sense matters to the clueless and closed minded, enlivened with misguided outrage.
Maybe because it is unavoidable?
thingiverse is a private organization, they can do whatever they want.
its called 'freedom'.
if you want to have a publicly funded 3d printing website that has AR-15 receivers and AK-47 bodies, you are 100% free to do so. . . you can even host it in a non-US country if you are worried about US firearms laws. I hear Somalia is very lenient towards the promulgation of AK-47s.
http://www.crossbows4u.co.uk/#/build-your-own/4535394681 replace wood with plastic
I don't blame anyone for worrying about liabilities, but Pandora's Box is open, there's no closing it now. The specs for many, many firearms parts are readily available, and anyone who wants to take the time to translate those designs to 3D, is going to be able to print them, and distribute the designs. I'm waiting for someone to notice they can print 3D magazines, of any capacity they want. Yes, this is another opportunity to learn that all we do for good, can and will be perverted to bad. Are we willing to throw out the whole 3D printing movement as a result?
I don't want any shitty DRM ruining my product.
Hmmmm, until this site can make a 3D working print of a person's brain, and his body, and somehow make it all work together to produce a mass murdering idiot, then this site isn't. Anyway, last time I checked, knives were lethal weapons, and 2" of water in a bathtub can also be a lethal weapon.
No matter what it is they're trying to censor. Banning citizens from having access to certain technology and equipment serves only to preserve a despot's grip on power. There is no shortage of ways to kill 20 kids in a primary school and unless you're going to pour all your energy into creating a fully childproofed totalitarian big brother state where people in general aren't allowed to do things like North Korea then restricting people won't prevent these tragedies from happening.
They should just chip it out of flint, it's more traditional. That said, I am in favour of gun control laws. However nothing will prevent someone intent on breaking the law from just ignoring any law meant to hinder him.
before this latest school shooting they really did not care. there has been an AR-15 receiver up on thingiverse for more than a year.
and there have been several school shootings in that time.
thingiverse even conducted a poll a few months back, the subject was whether or not users wanted to allow weapons on the site. i dont know the result of the poll, but the practical effect was nothing - they left those items up.
now all of a sudden they took them down.
nevermind 30+ children died today in automobile accidents (statistical average).
Maybe because it's entirely legal in the US.
All firearms which fire more than one bullet when the trigger is depressed can only be purchased by non law enforcement if they were manufactured prior to 1986 *and* the class 3 forms and background checks have been done. Doing the class 3 forms won't let you get a newer full auto, and just because its old doesn't mean you don't need the paperwork.
People complain about the amount of misinformation, but it would help if the laws weren't so complicated. Get rid of the NFA, suppressors are just hearing protection, full-autos are a novelty that would loose their appeal if they were easy to get, and short barrelled rifles and shotguns aren't significantly more deadly than any other firearm.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
Your distinguishing between queue and cue is a mute point.
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
Why would the police print their own weapons?
3D printers, makers, and the like have become enormously popular among libertarian types. There was quite a lot of attention devoted to these projects at last year's PorcFest gathering (1000+ attendees) for one.
Good to know which groups to dis-invite and boycott this year.
Liberty in your lifetime
Sorry guys, but using 3D printers to create a "gun" is a fantasy fueled by a legal fiction.
See, at some level, for legal purposes, the ATF has to define what a "gun" is and what's just a pile of random junk. They typically do this by saying the receiver is the "gun." The receiver on an AR fairly unique in the gun world because it doesn't have any stress placed on it. So, they technically printed a "gun" in the legal sense...but only in a legal sense.
To create a working firearm, you need a lot of metal components. Springs are obvious, as are any components placed under stress by the springs. Then there's the barrel, the chamber, the firing pin and other components that cannot be printed. So, they didn't (and can't) print a gun in the real world sense unless they happen to have raw stock and and CNC machine laying around.
We already have laws about knives and I've never heard of a nail gun or bottle of booze that was specifically designed to kill people.
I can't have a gun and I am essentially as free in my freedom of speech, hability to pursue happiness than most american. Actually more free since I may smoke pot without a problem, or even solicit sex for money and not be arrested. The only freedom I don't have is gun possession, and if you pretend that makes me NOT free, then youbeing forbidden to possess anything forbidden in USA, like say, an atom bomb even if you had the echnical possibility, or any myriad of forbiden substance, makes you NOT free. So really that sentence is utterly misleading. As for fighting against a governement, you are going to use against battle armored soldier or police... How ?
the lower assembly is NOT controlled item... only the upper assembly is..because the upper assembly is the real weapon component..actually fires the bullet ...the lower assembly only houses the trigger and holds the magazine....
Seriously, how could it possibly be a good idea to let *anyone* print their own lethal weapon.
Lets try this exact same question in another form.
Why is it a good idea to prescribe medications that increase the risk of violent behavior?
You see, it is believed that it is better to help large numbers of people even when it is at the expense of small numbers of people. If you need this in geek speak... "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
The only real debate is where the line should be. Absolute stances such as yours pretend that there is no debate, and are born of emotion rather than reason.
"His name was James Damore."
Seriously, how could it possibly be a good idea to let *anyone* smith their own sword.
Seriously, how could it possibly be a good idea to let *anyone* carve their own spear.
Seriously, how could it possibly be a good idea to let *anyone* sharpen their own rock.
Seriously, how could it possibly be a good idea to let *anyone* defend themselves from attack.
The stupidity of the gun grabbers simply astounds me. They're all the moral panic of the drug war with all the security theater of the Patriot Act, and yet they would likely be against both. "Ooh, but guns are scary! Thank God some kids were murdered so we have a new excuse to bitch about them!"
This is just the price of manufacturing coming down. People have been free to make anything for quite a while now. Ask any machinist.
I agree. We need to license who can have kids and who can't. Letting anyone print their own future murderer is a shame and should be a crime.
I don't know much about gun technology, so maybe somebody can explain why the lower receiver is the controlled part. Why not the barrel? It seems to me that the barrel is the heart and soul of a gun. You can make a gun with just a barrel and nothing else: it's called a cannon.
Furthermore, I would think the barrel would be the hardest part to manufacture, given the forces and temperatures it must endure, and having to be perfectly straight, and rifled. I would imagine that 3-D printed barrels are probably a long, long way off.
3-D printed receivers are already here, and only going to get better and cheaper. If they don't change the regulatory framework to start controlling the rest of the parts, then soon anyone that wants to will be able to make a gun at home and all the gun control laws in the world will just be so much pissing in the wind.
If you have to try so hard to prove what you believe is a common sense point of view and no one is listening, then maybe you should be quiet or change your argument. Another option is keep on fighting the good fight if you really, really believe you are right.
False Premise #1> That prohibition of objects from lawful acting free men helps to reduce pre-crime.
False Premise #2> That prohibition of information from lawful acting free men helps to reduce pre-crime.
Feel free to replace objects and information with other nouns. Here are some ideas:
Alcohol
Drugs
Guns
Encryption Software
Porn
DVD Burners
VCRs
It seems obvious at this point that guns, even legally owned, are safety hazard for everybody. If you own a car, you must pay for insurance. If you buy cigarettes, you need to pay large tax. We need to have significant gun tax, to cover costs to society. It should be large enough to discourage people from owning several guns they don't need, let's say to the tune of $200 per handgun per year, $1000 per semi automatic rifle. My guess would be, nobody would have a bunch of guns just laying around. Hey, you want to play around with guns, sure. Your constitutional right, of course. But now we need to put an armed policeman in every school, mall and movie theater to cover the possibility that you will go nuts and start shooting people. You have to pay the cost.
He might have meant "queue", in an attempt to cut down the number of libertarians posting such comments he might want them to post one at a time, in some kind of order.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
For fuck's sake, guys, let it wait! In ten years or twenty years, once 3D printing is generally accepted in the home, then go ahead and make your little plastic hobby guns. 3D printing is an unbelievably vital technology, we need it to grow free and unfettered, and you assholes are handing the government a golden excuse on a silver platter to nip it in the bud and regulate it into uselessness because you just can't bear to wait to have shitty, worthless plastic guns.
What would file-sharing look like now if someone had found a way to, shit, I dunno, kill a 12-year-old with Napster three months after it launched? The RIAA would make that happen with a time machine if they could. Nothing turns the general public against a new technology like a solid, broad-spectrum THINK OF THE CHILDREN ad campaign. Do not let them do this.
"Makerbot has deleted a collection of blueprints for gun components from Thingiverse, "
This is known as "shoveling shit against the tide" as my Dad says.
Guns are hundreds of years old and can be fashioned with hand tools and improvised materials and you have to be really dumb not to be able to type into a search engine "zip gun."
--
BMO
You do realize that smoke is now rising from the ears of every resident grammar nazi here right?
Well done!!!
Seriously, how could it possibly be a good idea to have a state so omnipresent and intrusive that it has to specifically "let" you do something before you are able to do it?
In the real world, technology and technological objects exist just as surely as the sun and moon do, and the legislature is no more able to uninvent the firearm than they are to forbid the sun from setting or the moon from rising.
Weapons exist and some people will have them regardless. Better for everyone to have them than for only criminals and thugs to have them.
Ultimately the problem is not the technology, it's human behaviour. It was the same problem when we had flintlocks and the same problem when we had swords and spears and the same problem when we were bashing each others heads in with rough rocks. That is the problem we need to solve and victim disarmament laws not only dont help they are actively counterproductive, because they increase the rewards and decrease the risks for those who indulge in the problem behaviour.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
The stupidity of the gun grabbers simply astounds me. They're all the moral panic of the drug war with all the security theater of the Patriot Act, and yet they would likely be against both. "Ooh, but guns are scary! Thank God some kids were murdered so we have a new excuse to bitch about them!"
Your stance is OK as long as you are also OK with the firearms homicide rate in the US being 30 times that of Australia and 60 times that of the UK.
List of countries by firearm-related death rate
Something needs to be done about the cowboy culture in the US as it is killing you off like a third world nation. I won't say that tighter gun control is all of the solution, but you have to start admitting how fucked up you are before you can even start to solve the problem.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
They're going to delete all the plans for forks.
Something needs to be done about the cowboy culture in the US as it is killing you off like a third world nation. I won't say that tighter gun control is all of the solution, but you have to start admitting how fucked up you are before you can even start to solve the problem.
You can even have tighter gun control without limiting gun ownership.
There are plenty of nations where pretty much anyone can own a gun but where the law dictates that either the entire gun should be kept in a safe or a part of it.
It might not be possible to verify that people are following the law but it raises an awareness that it is inappropriate to leave fully functional guns unguarded, expecially if you have children.
You can still pick out the gun during hunting season or when you are target practicing or whatever but it makes it harder for the kid to bring the gun to school.
I know I'm gonna get shot down as a braindead foreign factard for writing this, especially as I'm posting as Anonymous Coward, but "comment is free", so here's my two cents...
From the outside, the US can look like a really worrying place to the rest of the civilised world. First, I don't see how so many of you don't see the correlation between the fact there's about as many guns as people in the US and the fact that about 30,000 people a year are killed because of guns - this would strongly suggest a causal link to me. In practically every other country where private ownership of guns is permitted, it's heavily regulated. Most countries require a licence and an interview with a suitable authority in order to possess a firearm. Many countries also require a good reason for owning a gun, and "I wanna protect my family against the ravening hordes" isn't an acceptable reason (elsewhere). Often, active membership of a gun/hunting club is also required. These all seem like logical requirements for the ownership of something which has no purpose other than to kill/maim (again, elsewhere).
Regarding home defence: the only reason you would even need a firearm to "defend your family" is because there are so many people with guns out there. I also remember reading statistics (can't be arsed to try and find them now - another reason I'll get shot down for this post) that people who have guns in the home are far more likely to commit suicide with them, kill a family member (deliberately or accidentally) or have them stolen than they ever are to successfully defend their home against an intruder. I read a comment recently (again, can't be arsed to find it) from a law enforcement official in Alaska who said that one of the reasons there are so many home invasions is because the criminals are pretty sure that they'll be able to lay their hands on a gun or two during the break-in. He also made the point that a desperate junkie doesn't think rationally, and isn't likely to let the prospect of being shot by the homeowner put them off...
One of the most worrying things to many of us foreigners, though, is the culture that thinks they need a gun to defend against the tyrannical government. Which tyrannical government is that, then? I know that's the reason the Second Amendment was instituted in the first place, but I'm fairly sure the framers of the constitution never envisioned modern weaponry when they did it. The main argument they seem to offer is they need a gun to defend themselves from the government when they come to take their guns away. Like circular logic much? The 'prepper' folks look like they have paranoid delusions to the rest of the world, and their fears are stoked by right-wing media pundits with their outlandish conspiracy theories.
The fact that sales of guns and ammunition rocketed after the Newtown shootings is, frankly, shocking to outsiders. In most other countries that have had the misfortune to experience them, one mass shooting is reason enough to institute stricter gun laws. The US has had 36 mass shootings since Columbine...
As I remember Bill Maher saying years ago, the problem there is that too many people treat the Second Amendment as if it's the Second Commandment. Now I'll sit back and let you tell me all the ways you think I'm wrong... [Apologies for length of rant, but there's a lot of things to admire about US culture, but your unhealthy obsession with guns ain't one of them, and I find it troubling.]
Yes, I'm perfectly OK with that. Our murder rate is less than four times the rate of the UK, so it is pretty obvious they are getting creative with knives, bludgeons, poison, or what have you. I'd rather lose that additional 3 people per 100,000 than lose the ability to kill anyone who breaks into my home. (And our murder rate keeps falling, despite having so many guns readily available.)
And besides, those ASBOs aren't working out for them.
America may have a culture of violence, but that is better than a culture of subservience and weakness in the face of violence.
Your stance is OK as long as you are also OK with the firearms homicide rate in the US being 30 times that of Australia and 60 times that of the UK.
It's A-OK. Perfectly acceptable because we're not a bunch of stupid, dirty, disgusting, servile peasants.
There's a very big difference between all of those examples —which are not effective against a large number of people and can be escaped from by running —and a semi-automatic assault-type rifle —which can be lethal to dozens of people per mag and is considered effective at several hundred yards.
I'm definitely part of the "pro gun" crowd. However, I have to say that the 3d printing of guns seems like a bad idea to me. I'm not the least bit upset at this move.
The homicide rate is actually only 4 times the rate of those countries. The vehicular death rate is also 4 times more... Sure it's higher, but freedom has a price. These comparisons to countries still subject to the English crown, with no speech rights, and barely any other personal rights are patently absurd. Excessive safety and government control kills countries more than crime. So if you see a trend that the USA is slipping into a "third world nation" perhaps the cause is that the homicide rate has halved over the past 20 years! We're going to need more guns.
As an American, on the behalf of my entire nation, I'd just like to say; we don't give a fuck if you outside the United States are worried. In fact, we prefer it that way. It fits our ' do not fuck with us attitude'. This, coincidentally segues very very nicely into our willingness to allow free men to posses and use guns. Nothing says 'don't fuck with me' like having a gun.
TL;DR We don't give a fuck what you think.
Is wrong and stupid. It is also counter productive, in many ways.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
A citizenry armed with small arms is 'symbolic'?
Tell that to the Afghan rebels that sent the Russians home packing. Sure it took them a while, but if they were not armed, they would be dog food.
And you are sadly mistaken about our troops not firing on citizens. Many will do their jobs, as orders. They dont sit and make moral decisions. That is how order falls apart and even more people die. I bet they said that in Germany once too.. and see how that went.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If you compare at the total homicide rate as opposed to the firearm homicide rate, that drops dramatically (US is still about 3x the rate of both Australia and the UK, which are roughly equal, but takes the US well out of the same homicide rate as third world nations.) Intentional homicide has also dropped considerably in the US since 1994.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
... well you just KNOW what my reply will be. Right?!
We ALREADY have laws about guns. Booze kills far more than guns with ZERO benefit to society. In addition, guns SAVE orders of MAGNITUDE more lives every YEAR than die from homocide.
Yes. You just lost the argument and gunnies are correct. Loser.
To be fair, they're mostly suicides.
Your "slippery slope" arguement goes both ways. Have you noticed that there has never been a tactical nuke detonated in an act of crime? Do you think the fact that it is illegal to own and sell such a device has *anything* to do with that?
I am not a fortune teller, but only an idiot would think that if weapons of mass destruction were readily available at gun shops, they would not be used. Most of your "gun grabber" friends, probably don't have any issue with the 2nd amendment. The drafters of the 2nd amendment didn't even consider the possibility that "arms" could kill so many so quickly. Even your semiautomatic AR-15 with a 50 round magazine can probably fire 2 rounds per second or more. Thats more than an order of magnitude more deadly than arms from the 18th century.
We never hear about Australia's inner-city gang problems, either. Maybe there's a connection there...I wouldn't call the "cowboy culture" the problem but there is a "gangsta culture" that is and the probable source of those high numbers.
> Thank God some kids were murdered so we have a new excuse to bitch about them!"
You're a mentally ill person, who projects their own sickness onto their perceived enemies. We see this constantly from the ignorant conservatives.
Watt? I can't here you!
As a gun enthusiast, I think we need to address three main points:
1. Guns are tools, not toys, and are to be treated as such.
2. What do we ~really~ need? Is there any argument outside 'Oh mah gawd th' UN New World Ordur' or convienience for having magazine capacities greater than say, 10 or 15 rounds for the average user?
3. The cost of our laissez-faire attitude towards buying and owning weapons are events like Aurora and Newtown. While the causes are multifaceted, we can at least address some of them.
The next few months are going to prove to be our lasting legacy as gun owners- are we going to let our personal gains preside over the greater good?
I think you just showed a great reason why over-emotional people like you shouldn't be allowed to own any weapon, let alone an assault rifle.
Now they are taking interesting technology like 3D printing and subverting it so they can make even more weapons.
Why do these people need so many guns? Just how small are their penises?
If the world was free of drug addicts and gun nuts we'd live in a MUCH safer place.
A lot of kids got killed.
Tragic, it is. Abso-fucking-lutely tragic. Kids dying and not knowing what is happening, or why, all those young lives snuffed by an insane loser for no good reason.
A lot of grown-ups got killed.
That sucks too.
And now we have more suckage on the way... you see, for the next year, the news will be filled with tear-jerker stories about kids getting killed, which will appeal to this person looking for a drama fix.
The drama fix will be accompanied with a lot of anti-depressants and whiny heroin fag music, to be followed with "If you don't cry as loudly as I do, you are a terrible person".
Kill me, please.
The problem with that argument is it is far more difficult to use those later two as a weapon compared to a gun. The guy at Sandy Hook could NOT have killed the amount of people he did if all he had was a knife or a bathtub of water (not even thinking about how he would haul the tub from room to room).
I'd rather lose that additional 3 people per 100,000 than lose the ability to kill anyone who breaks into my home.
I'm sorry, but that stance makes you a complete pile of shit.
I don't care what you have in your home, how valuable it is. It is NOT worth a human life to stop someone from taking it.
Aku cinta korea,kunjungi halaman web saya http://www.medanstar.com/ y!
These comparisons to countries still subject to the English crown, with no speech rights, and barely any other personal rights are patently absurd.
The idea that those countries are any less free than you is what's patently absurd.
No, agreed. However, a man like him is intent on causing death, he'd find away. He'll get a lorry or produce a bomb or some other way of death production. The point isn't the weapon, it's the person. Although having guns available widely does deserve questioning.
Their lawyers are fucking retarded. It is COMPLETELY LEGAL to build your own complete and working gun in your own shop. You can build a receiver for any semi or bolt action weapon you choose as long as it it not prohibited as an NFA item, or an AOW item which would then need specific forms and taxes paid.
All you have to do is meet the makers mark requirement and use the guns for personal use, not for resale (although you could sell them later on).
The only time an FFL is needed is when you want to mail order specific parts (like a receiver) from OUT OF STATE.
Makerbot shows their true colors... anti gun libs that think they know better. Fuck them,
>
The homicide rate is actually only 4 times the rate of those countries. The vehicular death rate is also 4 times more
Eh, dude, 4 times more is 4 times *badder*. you are 4 times more likey to be killed in the US, and 60 times more likely to be shot and killed. That's crazy.
>... Sure it's higher, but freedom has a price.
Your life?
> These comparisons to countries still subject to the English crown, with no speech rights, and barely any other personal rights are patently absurd.
British crown, get it right. And they havent been subjects for I dont know how long, almost as long as americans. People in english speaking countries and Europe generally have more rights than americans, just not to guns. Free speech, drugs, homosexuality, drinking, (sex in general actually), political afiil, the list goes on and on.
The thing is we dont need guns. Only pussies need guns.
I dont understand why people keep going LOOK AT THE FIREARM HOMICIDE RATE. But choose to blindly ignore, ALL FUCKING HOMICIDE RATES. How is it somehow worse for a guy to die by bullets than by being stabbed.
Thingiverse lawyers tell them to delete the designs to avoid persecution. I suspect with the giant shit storm from the recent school shooting, they don't want to catch any flack for hosting weapon plans. This is purely a PR move.
Their line of thought goes something like this:
Some journalist discovers plans for gun parts on Thingiverse. They proceed to write a sensationalist piece on how [insert person who wants to kill people here] can download and print guns in their own homes and kill people using them. Stupid people read/hear/watch said story and panic thinking there is now an unlimited source of untraceable guns available. Of course they wont mention that these are only lower receivers and other parts that cant make a complete weapon. But it will be spun so the general public will think that any nerdy introverted kid with a 3D printer and computer can print a gun and shoot their school up. Thingiverse, along with the 3D printing and maker community get a black eye for enabling crazies and criminals to arm themselves without anyone ever knowing.
And to add to the gun argument:
Whats done is done. Adding bans to guns isn't going to work in the short run. Neither is relaxing current regulations going to arm citizens turning the population into a self policing militia. A ban only means that the sale of guns becomes a black market complete with criminal trafficking. Now the ban on guns becomes a new war on drugs where authorities are constantly trying to stem an influx of smuggled guns. And legal gun owners become targets for thieves wanting to steal guns for profit. What about previously legal gun owners do they surrender their guns to authorities to be destroyed? How many would be unscrupulous and recoup their cost by selling their guns on the black market? At this point we need better gun education. Even though the kid who shot the school up was unstable, his mother should have known better. Either she should have never kept the guns at home or avoided buying them altogether.
The school shooting was one of many but they are still isolated incidents. It sad hearing that those kids were shot to death but life is full of tragedy and children die tragically every day. The media takes the incident and turns it into a circus. They cram the gory details, crying parents and pro/anti gun groups yelling at each other down our collective throats until we need to see a shrink for PTSD. I stopped listening/reading/watching the news a long time ago because its full of negativity that I feel causes stress. My mother always watches the news and is always paranoid about some some scary FUD she heard on the news. I tell her to turn the fucking TV off and enjoy life. Watching the news isn't going to make you feel any safer nor will it help protect you from bad things (it may inform though). If something bad happens then so be it, as much as it sucks you just have to deal with it.
Firstly why not look at ALL homicide and violent crime rates? U.K is whooping our ass on that one. Second why dont you look at the list you posted for a second. We are ranked lower than Mexico, who has super stringent gun laws. Brazil has super stringent gun laws. Yet they rank above us even tho firearms are HIGHLY regulated in those countries. Maybe socioeconomic issues have more to do with people killing each other, than the tool which they use to do so.
before the political grandstanding and emotional appealing has begun.
Politicians are sick fuckers.
This is nothing short of censorship, politically and emotionally motivated censorship.
Its not cool, and it wasn't cool after columbine, 9/11. the sinking of the USS Maine, the Lusitania, the aurora shooting, the arizona shooting, etc....
freedom has a price.
Indeed. The US is one of the few countries where free citizens have the freedom to be fondled by the TSA. It's one of the few with true freedom of information, allowing any government agency access to all information necessary about any free citizen, anytime, enabling perfect defense of freedom. Why, there are even Free Speech Zones, just like China had during their WTO conference.
Ultimately the problem is not the technology, it's human behaviour.
And the objective of the law is to control how humans behave. No law will be followed 100% of the time, but if we were allowed to kill each other I'm sure we'd have more homicides. I think (not that it changes anything) responsible people should be allowed to own guns but currently any idiot can.
It was the same problem when we had flintlocks and the same problem when we had swords and spears and the same problem when we were bashing each others heads in with rough rocks.
No really. I don't know about flintlocks, but swords were expensive (hence few had them) and difficult to hide. Rocks can hurt, but it's hard to accidentally kill someone with one, even more so from a distance.
But, but -- how will we keep our lead levels up if they ban bullets?
First they came for our paint, and I said nothing, because I'm not a house painter. ...
Then they came for our leaded gasoline, and I said nothing, because I'm not a mechanic.
Now the're coming for our bullets
If they take away all the lead sources, our children will be smarter than we are, and our grandchildren will be smarter than they are.
And nobody likes a smart-mouth brat.
Maybe heavy metals can be put in breakfast cereal to keep our levels up.
How would that work?
Preliminary studies on a coal fly ash utilization as growth media for selected cereal crops.
Electronic Journal of Environmental, Agricultural and Food Chemistry 2012 Vol. 11 No. 5 pp. 558-564
why? human life is not priceless by any stretch of imagination. Just recently hundreds of thousands died because of nonexistent WMDs in Iraq, many thousands of innocent people died in the war on the terrorist boogeyman.
At least in case of home invasion your personal safety is directly endangered and that makes the use of force infinitely more legitimate than wars causing deaths of thousands because sociopaths ruling the world can't get along. Who said breaking into the house is only about stealing shit? there are sickos who would love to tie you to force you watch the rape on your wife/daughter just because.
Seriously, this is something right out of one of his "cautionary tales"
If you read that Wikipedia table closer, you'll find that it directly, completely, utterly, contridicts that Nationmaster link you posted. The wikipedia table shows the US as having a higher murder rate than any other 1st-world western country. The "most murderous" 1st-World western country after the US is Finland, with a muder rate just a hair over half the US rate.
Perhaps that Nationmaster table isn't the "37 top murder countries"... instead it is the 37 they felt like posting data from.
Perhaps you should pay at least some tiny amount of attention before posting selectively-chosen statistics?
However they feel about gun parts personally, being involved in distributing them could one day be a very bad thing.
You know what's worse? Arbitrarily banning something just because the media does not like it.
What about toy guns? Or gun parts for other different guns? None of those are banned. Just some small components for one gun.
The parts in question are not even crucial components for a gun. They are not in any way themselves a weapon. Should you ban anything spiky or heavy on Thingverse because it could be strapped to a stick and used as a club?
Lastly the reason why it's a REALLY bad idea to ban anything from Thingverse is that it removes the whole common carrier arument. Now that they have shown they police content, they are RESPONSIBLE for all content in Thingverse. Copyright infringement, liability, all of that whole world of legal pain now seems open to descend upon Thingverse.
Giving in to people being scared and censoring things never ends well; why should it for Thingverse?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Law is a giant hammer you want to perform as a scalpel. It doesnt work that way.
Being beaten to death with a heavy rock or just bludgeoned into a puddle of mush with a stick or with bare hands and feet - dead is still dead. The lower tech versions usually involve a lot more time in agony before the merciful end. Even if you had a magical button that could eliminate firearms entirely, the end result would be more, not less, pain and hurt in this world. In a world of melee weapons the larger, younger, and stronger individuals have an even larger edge. In a world with firearms, the small, older and weaker folks at least have an equalizer.
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I see what you did there!
This is an owner of a website choosing what content it hosts.
Correct; but that is also censorship. It's perfectly legal, but we should not pretend that a site that takes user provided materials and limiting what can be placed according to any rules is not censorship.
The problem with censorship is that it then allows other to sue you claiming you should have censored this or that; much simpler to never sensor anything and instead shut down accounts if other users complain about a user abusing the system somehow.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
As an American I refuse to take criticism from someone who came from a culture that has done as many atrocious things as you Europeans have done to one another. I'm not even just talking Germany here, it's the endless history of wars and blood and torture on a scale unimaginable; you present the veneer of civility but your sneer hides a demon underneath that America has cast off.
The reason why America is free of your curse is that the people are able to truly choose their own fate. They may not right now, but they can and have the power to truly say no when government goes too far. America is not capable of being ruled by mad-men in the same way you Europeans are.
So don't talk to us about worry, because Americans not part of a gang are generally just fine and quite safe. Worry instead about what happens when history repeats itself where you live. The reason why America likes to stay so heavily armed is we know it's only a matter of time before people like you descend once more into barbarism; we'd like to be well prepared to fend you off when it happens.
Interesting theory. But the US already has lax gun laws, yet has more deaths by gun per capita than any other nation.
We can wish for this 'more guns make us safer' claim to be the case, but it just isn't so. Any argument consistently disproved by empirical evidence is just sophistry (that's greek for handwavy bullshit).
Full disclosure: I own several guns. I respect the US 2nd amendment. Where exactly do these disasters involve 'a well-regulated militia'? Where do gun shops selling out this week on AR's and 30-round clips involve a well-regulated militia? I don't see modern-day minutemen. I see fear, paranoia and so many n00bs with guns that there's nonstop mayhem.
Bottle: "Genie, get back in here!"
Genie: "LOL NO"
I am John Hurt.
Reality check: how exactly did this week's small/weak guy improve the pain quotient of the world by resorting to gunfire, vs. the absurd gedankenexperiment of him trying to strangle 26 consecutive people with his bare hands. IOW, your sentence 2 contradicts 3, 4 and 5.
Also: No end is merciful when the alternative was/is not dying in the first damn place.
You say they wouldn't fire on the American people...tell that to the kids at Kent State. (yes, I know that was the National Guard. )
Then of course there was the Civil war...how many Americans in uniform killed other Americans during that little affair?
John
> Booze kills far more than guns with ZERO benefit to society.
We drink to not care about handwavy illogical remarks like yours. BIG societal benefit.
Define weapon you twits. You know Mrs. Plum in the library with the candlestick, would probably disagree.
"In the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut shootings," the Jew run government is doing everything it can to disarm its 'cattle' (goyim) as they are getting wise to the Jews' power over them, and are fed up with it.
Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKWgCRBR5qE
One of the worst actors ever seen... notice the fake 'bricks' behind them, on the left hand side, at 0:10... and where does the guy who walks from right to left at 0:07 go? Behind the 'wall'?
Even better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZFmAZpluNg
Possibly the worst Jew actor ever seen, and the worst thing is, the Jews think their 'cattle' are as stupid as the Jews are, and will believe this shit...
I'd rather lose that additional 3 people per 100,000 than lose the ability to kill anyone who breaks into my home.
I'm sorry, but that stance makes you a complete pile of shit.
I don't care what you have in your home, how valuable it is. It is NOT worth a human life to stop someone from taking it.
The valuable things in your home are your wife and kids. I'm all for gun control and will never own a gun, but anyone breaking into my home to hurt my family has waived their right to live.
Seems like the only way to stop these continued insults to our culture with the proliferation of guns is to mail the source. Given these developments, I am all for remote body-scanning of everyone! Tired of gun nuts running this culture!
"I don't care what you have in your home, how valuable it is. It is NOT worth a human life to stop someone from taking it."
Obviously someone thought it was worth dying to try and take it. Think about that. Remember who's committing the initial wrong, the person who thinks it's ok to steal knowing the risks then does so or the person who stops him and ends up killing him in the process.
4 times higher isn't something you can just wave away. Besides, rights don't matter if they're not enforced. Sure, on paper, Americans might have more rights, but with the Patriot act, etc, people living in Canada, the UK, Australia, and whatnot have more real rights that are actually enforced.
The US has a very violent culture, and has a lot of deaths by firearm and otherwise as a result. Large areas of the country DO have the laws you want and those areas are generally the most dangerous ones. The density of firearm ownership is higher in rural areas which also coincidentally have far less crime. Other countries have higher rates of firearm ownership than the US yet far less crime. One example is Sweden. Why does Sweden have fewer shootings despite having more weapons per capita? The same reason they have fewer stabbings, and fewer bludgeonings. It's a less violent culture.
A 'well regulated militia' means a general population which is armed and practiced with their arms. The founders intention was to prevent us from ever entrusting our safety to a standing army, which they considered would be a grave mistake, and their alternative to provide defense was to ensure that the populace in general would remain armed and ready to resist.
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www.dongiverse.com
The best part is shown by the astounding amount of posts defending their gun rights.
But what else would you expect from a warmongering country?
I suspect the US government is quite happy with a good portion of the population primed for war.
So YOUR (USA) version of freedom comes at the cost of x4 likely to die.
I wouldn't call that freedom buddy.
Ultimatly - You can't fix human behaviour. There will ALWAYS be nutjobs.
So in this context......
>>> Weapons exist and some people will have them regardless. Better for everyone to have them than for only criminals and thugs to have them.
If everyone has one, Then you have just made the situ worse. Because criminals generaly try to avoid using their guns if possible (Unless killing).
However the nutjobs you have just armed will go to town, so to speak.
Something needs to be done about the cowboy culture in the US as it is killing you off like a third world nation
I'll agree the 9 countries above the US on that list are close to being third world in many places. At a listed rate of 10.2 Total firearm-related deaths per 100,000, and a population of 314,975,581, my estimate on our total annihilation, assuming no births or other deaths, is in the range of 10000 years.
file:
I think you'll find not much sympathy in trying to defend the rights of burglars to burgle unimpeded.
The majority of violence seems to occur in residential areas occupied by non-Europeans - which isn't cowboy country.
Even if gunpowder based weapons are banned, there are still knives, machetes, axes, baseball bats.
It would be more accurate to compare deaths by munitions in the USA against deaths by stabbing in Europe, particularly those areas where
native Europeans are a minority.
The CDC (i.e., the US government) lists the US homicide rate as 55/million, which would make it 6th on that list. Furthermore, that list seems to exclude just about all countries in North/South America and Africa, many of which have the highest murder rates in the world. And why is the murder rate for Turkey listed as twice that of the highest country in the wikipedia list? This doesn't even come close to passing the smell test.
Fuck them. This is dumb. It's their site and they have every right. Quit complaining. Shut up and hack!
Your stance is OK so long as you have evidence that their lack of guns is the reason for Australia and the UK's lower murder rates. But you don't because no such evidence exists. Flood Australia and the UK with guns and their murder rate wouldn't even approach the US's. To suggest otherwise is just plain silly.
The metaphysical bank called - your check bounced.
If even a small percentage of the school staff had been carrying concealed weapons the death toll would have been lower. Most likely much lower.
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How about my child? I couldn't give a shit about my stuff, but I have kids to protect. I guess I should just abandon post and let a kidnapper take the kids because the attackers life is more important.
try walking into a deli
and urinating on the cheese
ANARCHYBURGER
I'd rather lose that additional 3 people per 100,000 than lose the ability to kill anyone who breaks into my home.
I'm sorry, but that stance makes you a complete pile of shit.
I don't care what you have in your home, how valuable it is. It is NOT worth a human life to stop someone from taking it.
I have 3 beautiful children in my home... and they certainly are worth taking the life of the person who breaks in with the intent of harming them.
What I have in my home that is ABSOLUTELY worth the price of a human life to stop someone from taking it is simply this: my own family. Including me, that's six human lives. If some bastard comes in and wants to kill one or more of us in order to acquire something else from the property, which can and DOES happen, then I want to be able to protect my family. Not my possessions. They can have my computer, my electronics and everything else if they want it. Any sensitive data I have will be changed/removed/etc before they can get to a place to use it. But the instant that they start threatening the physical safety of my family, all pretense of society and civilization have been removed. Not by me, but by them, and I have two choices. I can either allow them to kill and possibly sexually assault my family in front of me, or I can do my best to prevent that.
The problem is that I don't know beforehand what the intentions of any invader are. So the choice needs to be made quickly. A gun can help with that. If they are unarmed, then the sound of a gun will convince them that they've made a mistake. They will be allowed to leave unharmed if they do so immediately. Otherwise, I want the ability to stop them without question, whether with the use of a gun or other weapon or using personal physical force.
But the gun debate isn't really about that. It's about oppression of the people *by* the government, and the ability of people to prevent that if necessary. We can argue that times have changed since the Revolutionary War, but in my mind all that's really happened is that humanity has figured out faster ways to kill each other. Personally, I believe that citizens should be allowed to possess *any* weapon that the military has produced--stopping short ONLY of nukes, and that because of the degree in UNAVOIDABLE collateral damage that those weapons trigger. No one should have or use that sort of weapon.
People may think that I'm paranoid when I talk about this sort of thing, but ultimately the government needs to be responsible to its citizens, and if the citizens have *NO* militia capacity, then that responsibility is only by agreement. As soon as someone decides that the rights of the citizens no longer matter, then the voting box will no longer be sufficient to keep the government from repressing its citizens.
Remember: Voting Box, Soap Box, Ammo Box. Use to preserve freedom, and ONLY use in that order. Right now I think the voting box is starting to fail us. Soap box time is here. I hope we never move to needing an ammo box.
And if you think that the government would *never* be able to order soldiers to fire on its own citizens and have that order followed, you just haven't been paying attention to history. I'm certain that in 1910 people in Germany probably felt the same way. We all know how that went. I see no reason that the USA OR ANY OTHER country couldn't end up doing the same thing--especially if citizens have no weapons capable of resisting the infringement on basic rights.
> I don't care what you have in your home
Or who?
Now il just have to stab them in stead.
Speak for yourself.
If every teacher had one of these along with the training on how to use it when that nut kicked in the door
A. ...you would maybe have stunned the one real wannabe mass killer who would have otherwise done something stupid this year (and thus maybe saved a couple of dozen of potential victims).
B. ...and you would have a country filled with countless problems of abusive tasering (badly behaving kids who got on the nerves of their teachers. Not that the brats were in their rights to begin with. But using a potentially lethal weapon to deal with verbal menace or bad behavious *is* inappropriate) and several extra cases of taser-related deaths on top of the usual ones.
Just look at how much cases of inappropriate tasering there has been since tasers became popular among various security branches.
(And I'm not counting in the potential of malevolent kids stealing their teacher's electrical weapon for nefarious purposes)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]