Polio Eradication Program Suspended In Pakistan After Aid Workers Shot

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Polio Eradication Program Suspended In Pakistan After Aid Workers Shot

Posted by Soulskill on Friday December 21, 2012 @08:08AM from the got-to-be-kidding-me dept.

Hugh Pickens writes "Jamal Khan reports that the United Nations has suspended its polio vaccination drive in Pakistan after eight people involved in the effort were shot dead in the past few days. The killings dealt a grave blow to the drive to bring an end to the scourge of polio in Pakistan, one of only three countries where the crippling disease still survives. Militants accuse health workers of acting as spies for the U.S. and claim the vaccine makes children sterile. Taliban commanders in the troubled northwest tribal region have also said vaccinations can't go forward until the U.S. stops drone strikes in the country. Insurgent opposition to the campaign grew last year after it was revealed that a Pakistani doctor ran a fake polio vaccination program to help the CIA track down and kill Osama bin Laden, who was hiding in the town of Abbottabad in the country's northwest. The Pakistani government has condemned the attacks against aid workers, saying they deprive Pakistan's most vulnerable populations — specifically children — of basic life-saving health interventions. A total of 56 polio cases have been reported in Pakistan during 2012, down from 190 the previous year, according to the U.N. Most of the new cases in Pakistan are in the northwest, where the presence of militants makes it difficult to reach children. Clerics and tribal elders were recruited to support polio vaccinations in an attempt to open up areas previously inaccessible to health workers. 'This is undoubtedly a tragic setback,' says UNICEF spokeswoman Sarah Crowe, 'but the campaign to eradicate polio will and must continue.'"

128 of 223 comments (clear)

Min score:

Reason:

Sort:

Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

Seems like every backward region I've ever been too has been awash in conspiracy theories, urban legends, and superstitious horseshit. Worked down in South America, where every illiterate countryside hick seems to think Americans are trying to steal their organs (resulting in shit like this). Worked in India, where half the hicks think that clean water is just a ruse to poison them. Even worked in a ghetto, where the rumor was that whitey was putting chemicals in menthol cigarettes to make black men sterile.
So it doesn't surprise me that backwater Pakistanis believe that Christians are out to give their kids drugs to make them hate Mohammad (or whatever other crazy crap runs through those heads), disguised as these things called "vaccines." Combine that with a CIA sleight-of-hand and a Taliban which is happy to use any excuse to show it's still relevant, and you get a lot of kids who are now going to die from a disease the rest of the world eradicated long ago.
Fuck, just look at this idiot as the perfect example of what happens when you mix base stupidity with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
It's all well and good until said hillbillies start killing people or getting them killed.
1. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:13 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Your sentiment is not lost on me, but that is why we must remember we cannot force our ways or our means of producing a safe and poductive society on others. This is a bit of case for the prime directive.
  There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  Thats not to say we shouldnt freely provide information, or allow people to ask us for help, that contradicts there beliefs, but we should be careful how we do it.
2. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by MightyMartian · 2012-12-21 08:18 · Score: 2
  
  In almost all cases national governments are in favor of these programs. What Pakistan should be doing is giving the workers armed escorts.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
3. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by mspohr · 2012-12-21 08:23 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Judging from your subject heading, I thought you were talking about the USA and as I read your post, I was thinking that everything you say could be applied to the good old USA so I'm not sure what your point is...?
  TFA seems to have the theory that it was the US operation of a fake polio campaign as part of the effort to get Bin Laden that led to the current Taliban violence against polio workers. Probably a reasonable assumption.
  Also... ignorance is never "all well and good"... and simply any group of oppressed (by their govt., the US govt., their feudal landlords, etc.) people "hillbillies" is ignorant.
  
  --
  I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
4. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:28 · Score: 1
  
  The is a direct result of the reputation the US has earned in the world. Though these are UN aid workers right? Its definitely irrational for people to equate the UN to the US CIA NSA, DHS, TSA or any other 3 letter agency, but this is the end result of using force to dictate politics, religion, and science.
  It is very very unfortunate but this is also nothing new the UN has had experience with this in the past like you have pointed out.
  The same thing happened in Darfur, the UN couldn't even provide food because they would be killed for being the long arm of the evil imperialists who had destabilized the nation in the first place.
  While the UN was not responsible for the situation in Darfur, the Chinese, and British corporations were definitely to blame, and possibly American foreign corporate interests. They wanted oil, and land.
5. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2012-12-21 08:29 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  There have been cases in history where cultural lobotomy has been a good thing. So, 100k cases of polio win hands down.
  
  --
  Ezekiel 23:20
6. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Nadaka · 2012-12-21 08:33 · Score: 2
  
  This is also true of the hillbilly parts of the US by the way.
7. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:33 · Score: 1
  
  Well, how's that for a steaming pile of horseshit.
8. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by LocalH · 2012-12-21 08:36 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  What good is cultural diversity if people are dying left and right and thus unable to enjoy or even preserve it because of ill-informed radicals?
  100k cases of polio, definitely worse.
  
  --
  FC Closer
9. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by vikingpower · 2012-12-21 08:39 · Score: 1
  
  the only true evil in the world today is the Taliban
  the closest to true evil in the world today is the Taliban. There, FTFY.
  
  --
  Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
10. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by gtall · 2012-12-21 08:48 · Score: 2
  
  The Taliban has been against vaccination long before the bin Laden operation. Let's all be multi-culti and let the hicks overrun the civilized people. Any history of Pakistan would show you the only oppressor in the Pakistan tribal regions has been Islam and its upside down view of women, child marriage, education, etc. Let's also not forget that the wonderful cultural heritage of those regions is also the one that cultivates poppies for heroin production.
11. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by TheSync · 2012-12-21 08:48 · Score: 1
  
  There have been cases in history where cultural lobotomy has been a good thing. So, 100k cases of polio win hands down.
  The problem is that most "cultural lobotomies" have been performed by ethnic discrimination, terror, or simply mass killing.
12. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by flayzernax · 2012-12-21 08:48 · Score: 1
  
  But are these people YOUR responsability really? Their outside of the monkeysphere. I say we should leave them be if they are this crazy. However another person made a point that the Taliban are radicals and no the prime directive doesnt really apply because they potentially have the same technological level to resist.
13. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Sir_Sri · 2012-12-21 08:53 · Score: 2
  
  What Pakistan should be doing is giving the workers armed escorts.
  
  That would be like sending in the army to end racism in the south so that you can hand out bottled water.
  The civilized areas of pakistan don't particularly need the UN to go in an help people, they have hospitals and roads and all that stuff already. Yes, there are poor people who need help being vaccinated, but they in karachi for example this a detail management problem, and they in a broad sense need money.
  In the tribal areas the pakistani central government is not welcome. At all. They've been basically in an uneasy soft war with the tribal areas since even the 1860's when it was all nominally british. The UN has, thus far, been able to go in, on its own, with the protection of being the UN, and do all of these things because people have been convinced (and convinced the tribal elders, even with bribes) that the UN guys are actually seriously trying to do good thing. If you send in the army you're starting a war about who is in control of the tribal areas. And quite frankly the central government doesn't care that much. Eventually yes, it may come to that, but right now the central government in pakistan has its own problems, and they'd rather stay out of the tribal areas. What they don't want, frankly what no one wants, is polio to spread from the tribal areas to the rest of pakistan or india.
14. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2012-12-21 08:56 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  The problem is that most "cultural lobotomies" have been performed by ethnic discrimination, terror, or simply mass killing.
  Aye, that is a problem. I guess that it all boils down to the fact that until recently, for a very long period (approximately from the end of the Neolithic), there has been very little value put on a human life. And in many parts of the world, it still is.
  
  --
  Ezekiel 23:20
15. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-12-21 08:57 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  Even if one is happy to stand back and let the colorful natives be colorful(either because you'd rather not pick on their culture, or because it's just too much of a pain in the ass), the trouble in this case is that anywhere polio is allowed to remain endemic is a reservoir just waiting for a stroke of bad luck to make it back into the wider population.
  Were the threat to local children some sort of non-contagious local superstition, we'd have the luxury of deciding whether or not to play cultural relativism. With polio, though, the question is whether we hunt it down wherever it hides, incidentally pissing off some locals and saving some babies, or whether we put up with the risk of having a serious outbreak at any time, almost anywhere...
16. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Jartan · 2012-12-21 09:09 · Score: 2
  
  You must be joking. They're putting everyone at risk by not getting vaccinations. If we actually had a large outbreak of polio there would be a good chance for a dangerous mutation.
17. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by jythie · 2012-12-21 09:09 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Well, there is being against something, and then having a high profile example of exactly what you were paranoid about, which resulted in the assassination off a major figure in your organization... it would be like if it came out that the US government actually was spreading mind control chemicals from jet engines or started sending UN troops to secure little backwater towns. Believing in a conspiracy makes people paranoid, but having actual confirmation of that conspiracy, at least in part, can push people over when it comes to action.
18. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by alexander_686 · 2012-12-21 09:14 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  That would be like sending in the army to end racism in the south so that you can hand out bottled water.
  Well, sometimes you do need to send in the 101 Airborne.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine#Armed_escort
  Not saying that this is the case here – but it’s not something you want to dismiss outright.
19. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by runeghost · 2012-12-21 09:24 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Perhaps the residents of those "backward regions" know their history? It's full of literally centuries of treaty-breaking, double-dealing, resource exploitation, regicide, land grabs, ethnic cleansing, biological warfare, slavery, and cultural destruction at the hands of white Europeans. Why should they trust us? Because, "When we say it's for your own good, we mean it this time, really"? Add in things like the CIA's little Osama-hunting stunt and Obama's chronic missile-lobbing and the only thing that surprises me is that there isn't of this sort of violence.
20. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by flayzernax · 2012-12-21 09:26 · Score: 1
  
  I agree people shouldn't neccissarily be thrown under a bus because a radical group makes life hard. But you don't see me voulenteering for this duty in the UN. I also don't feel good about personally ordering (expecting) someone to deal with this situation themselves.
  However I felt like sharing my opinion. So I am an armchair philosopher. At least here I get to interact in a peaceful way debating this type of stuff. I think if I felt a clear and present threat from polio I would worry about it, maybe even be motivated to find a solution I felt good about.
  I really am not immensely worried about polio taking over the 1st world. Could be from ignorance. I never experienced polio or knew anyone that did. I also don't get out much anymore so rarely get a chance to get sick. Have not had a vaccine myself since I left the military. Haven't needed one either. I'm not living in a polio infested slum.
21. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by runeghost · 2012-12-21 09:26 · Score: 1
  
  ...and the only thing that surprises me is that there isn't *more* of this sort of violence.
22. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by meerling · 2012-12-21 09:37 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Of course since they remain a viable reservoir of the virus, it can and will continue to attempt to expand beyond their borders.
  They are a viral cesspool that threatens to infect everyone.
  Ok, that was a bit dramatic, but the point is, you can't leave a viable infectious reservoir if you want to eradicate a disease.
  Look at smallpox. There was a massive campaign to inoculate everyone on the planet. The got pretty close to that goal, and no area was left untouched. Now, the only smallpox you are going to see are the samples still held by certain organizations. Most of the doctors and scientists want even those samples eradicated, but a few fools have been preventing that for over a decade. (I could list why their excuses are invalid, but this isn't the place.)
  They are just trying to do the same thing with polio. This can only be effectively done with diseases that reside exclusively in humans.
  
  Ok, some people are going with the Star Trek Prime Directive excuse. In Next Gen and later, the wimps writing for them interpreted it as a total hands off let them suffer version. In the original series, it was a don't mess with their development kind of thing. Curing a plague was ok, so was evacuating a doomed planet. On the other hand, you don't set yourself up as gods, provide them with advanced tech or science, or force a non-space faring planet into the federation.
  In the New stuff, they'd totally let everyone suffer and die, and then wring their hands metaphorically and congratulate themselves on not interfering in the development of another culture.
  In the Old stuff, they'd have provided a vaccine and aided in it's distribution and then congratulate themselves on saving vast numbers of peoples lives among the primitive culture, and making it possible for them to continue to develop on their own.
  
  Yes, I watched a lot of Star Trek when I was younger.
  
  One of the problems some people are overlooking is that vaccinations need to go to the people, the people can't really go to the vaccines, or at least not the distances and locations that would be required if they had to go to the major cities. Few people have the kind of transportation necessary, and leaving your own area, ESPECIALLY if you are a tribal, it is an immediate and large risk to your survival and well being. It would be great if the government would provide security escorts for the aid workers, but again, it's not going to work in the boonies out there. Some tribal territories would consider that a hostile act, and either not cooperate, or actually try to kill everyone involved.
  As to the CIA thing, I hadn't heard of it, and am somewhat doubtful without further documentation. On the other hand, that's the kind of bullshit the CIA is know for doing, even though I'm pretty sure it's against international law. Even if it isn't against international law, it is a horribly stupid thing to do as it will put all humanitarian aid personnel and projects in jeopardy for years if not decades. It's something no intelligent, rational, or ethical person would do. In other words, right up spy alley.
  
  As to the Taliban, they've already proven they'll say and do anything to force people to follow and obey their power. They have proven themselves to the world to be irrational unreasoning scum of the worst sort. They don't want outsiders in their territories and will happily lie, steal, cheat, and kill to get their way.
23. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by damienl451 · 2012-12-21 09:42 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Easy. 100,000 cases of polio is much much worse. The kids didn't ask to be born to parents who have strange ideas and there are many aspects of the local culture (honor killings? Systematic and systemic discrimination against women?) that should disappear. Cultural eradication is a good thing if it means that mistaken beliefs about the world get rooted out, and especially if it causes active harm to others. I won't be shedding any tears if a "culture" that rejects something as innocuous as vaccination disappears.
  That being said, I agree that imperialism is a bad idea, and much of the backlash against "the West" is due to real grievances. For instance, bombing weddings and killing children is not a good way to show how great Western civilization is. Neither can you shove your values down people's throats and expect them to embrace them. But if some cultural practices (genital mutilation for instance) were to be abandoned, I'd be very happy. And, when it involves children whose only mistake was to be born in the wrong part of the world, cultural relativism doesn't seem very appropriate to me.
  Not to forget that appealing to "culture" is often a way for the powerful to cement their privileges and continue to exploit marginalized groups. Thus the various dictators who explain that human rights are a Western construct and that authoritarianism is part of the local culture. Or people who want to keep girls ignorant and submissive because their culture/religion says women are inferior to men.
24. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Shoten · 2012-12-21 09:46 · Score: 2
  
  Your sentiment is not lost on me, but that is why we must remember we cannot force our ways or our means of producing a safe and poductive society on others. This is a bit of case for the prime directive.
  There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  Thats not to say we shouldnt freely provide information, or allow people to ask us for help, that contradicts there beliefs, but we should be careful how we do it.
  "Prime Directive?" This is Pakistan, not some fledgling civilization in danger of being contaminated by knowledge of alien life with far superior technology, who might be mistaken for deities upon sighting. It's just Pakistan. Many of their doctors and engineers studied in the West, for fuck's sake...even if there was a question of cultural contamination, that line is waaaaaaaay behind us all.
  Vaccinating people against polio and "cultural eradication," to use your terms, aren't even on the same plane of possibility. As for your third paragraph, I'm not even sure what you're trying to say (so I'm guessing) but no, you don't have to honor everyone's beliefs. You have to acknowledge them, yes, but some beliefs are just plain batshit crazy, and should be called out as such. At the end of the day, you have to have SOME consensus as to what truth is, you know...there is such a thing as true and false. Or do you really think that maybe Scientology is right, too? That the Mormon belief that God and Jesus have their own planets has a good bit of merit to it? Or perhaps that the Flat Earth Society has it right...and the world is flat? Oh, and also, that it's totally round at the same time, like everyone else believes...
  No, there is such a thing as objective, provable, scientific truth. For example...
  Polio vaccines wipe out a needless and preventable disease that still wreaks havoc among the child populations of three nations = true.
  Polio vaccines make children sterile = insanely, provably, ass-poundingly false.
  The Prime Directive is real = also incredifuckingly false.
  
  --
  
  For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
25. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by MightyMartian · 2012-12-21 09:53 · Score: 1
  
  On this side of the world people don't want to so anything about AGW because we might have to carpool or put up with wind turbines.
  Every culture seems to have its idiotic antiscientitic hang ups.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
26. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Vinegar+Joe · 2012-12-21 09:53 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Aw come on......have a heart.
  
  --
  "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
27. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by dskoll · 2012-12-21 09:56 · Score: 1
  
  Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  
  Unquestionably, the polio.
28. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by magic+maverick+ · 2012-12-21 10:02 · Score: 1
  
  Fuck cultural relativism.
  100 000 cases of polio is worse than backwards cultures being wiped out.
  I do think that many so called backwards cultures are actually not. However, fuck Islam. In fact, fuck Christianity and Judaism and Buddhism as well. Religion is backwards.
  
  --
  HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
29. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by MLBs · 2012-12-21 10:10 · Score: 1
  
  Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean no one is after you.
  Perhaps if the people of Guatemala were a little more cautious in the 50s, they would have a thriving country now.
30. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by firewrought · 2012-12-21 10:15 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  The problem is that most "cultural lobotomies" have been performed by ethnic discrimination, terror, or simply mass killing.
  Aye, that is a problem. I guess that it all boils down to the fact that until recently, for a very long period (approximately from the end of the Neolithic), there has been very little value put on a human life. And in many parts of the world, it still is.
  And, just as counterexample, some "cultural lobotomies" have been relatively bloodless. Some of the changes were subtle, such as adopting a new alphabet so as to separate people from their history. Ninety years later, Turkey's doing better than most of its Islamist cousins. Was it ethical? Probably not, but it turned out better than most ideologically driven changes.
  
  --
  -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
31. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2012-12-21 10:17 · Score: 1
  
  Aw come on......have a heart.
  I bet that's exactly what the victims were telling to the priests even as they were lying on the altar.
  
  --
  Ezekiel 23:20
32. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by EdIII · 2012-12-21 10:23 · Score: 1
  
  It's all well and good until said hillbillies start killing people or getting them killed.
  I saw this movie once where the hillbillies did a lot worse than kill some guy. Lesson I learned from it? Anytime you hear banjos, PADDLE FASTER.
33. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by dgatwood · 2012-12-21 10:33 · Score: 1
  
  Put another way, the longer we take to eradicate the disease, the greater the risk of the virus mutating into a form that the vaccine no longer protects against, at which point we're back to square one worldwide.
  Worse, within a given region, eradication of polio has to be completed within a fairly short period of time, or you risk the vaccine form of the virus mutating and causing some immune-compromised people to actually get a form of polio from people who received the vaccine . So stopping the immunization process in the middle is likely to condemn at least a few people to crippling paralysis and even death. In fact, this is exactly what happened in Nigeria just a few years ago. It is all but a certainty that the same thing will happen in Pakistan if the vaccination program does not get back up and running soon.
  
  --
  Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
34. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Yvanhoe · 2012-12-21 10:50 · Score: 2
  
  Well, I can't help but feel for the people who are on the field, fighting the conspiracy theories and learning one day that one of these crazy conspiracies was actually right. The CIA through its fake operation gave ammo to opponents to vaccination. This was a totally predictable outcome and a very bad thing to do. Was getting Bin Laden worth the delaying on the extermination of polio? I personally think that this is fucked up priorities.
  
  --
  The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
35. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by imnotanumber · 2012-12-21 11:05 · Score: 2
  
  Aw come on......have a heart.
  I bet that's exactly what the victims were telling to the priests even as they were lying on the altar.
  And then they took the offer... literally!
36. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Sir_Sri · 2012-12-21 11:11 · Score: 1
  
  I actually made comparison for that reason specifically.
  Is it worth starting a war over, or can you get what you want some other way? If the south had revolted against the army being used as an escort it would have been a big fight. The tribal areas in pakistan *are* fighting a war with the government already, this would just make it worse.
  As I say, it will have to come to it eventually when the central government in pakistan wants control over their whole country (just like the US civil war!). Until then, it's better to try and stay out of the way and let the UN negotiate with the tribal chiefs independently.
37. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by fyngyrz · 2012-12-21 11:13 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  What would buddha do?
  Reincarnate.
  
  --
  I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
38. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Kozar_The_Malignant · 2012-12-21 11:24 · Score: 1
  
  >That would be like sending in the army to end racism in the south so that you can hand out bottled water.
  That's exactly what we did, so people could drink from the public drinking fountains (and also vote and go to college and such.) It worked.
  
  --
  Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
39. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by eyegone · 2012-12-21 11:31 · Score: 1
  
  How dare you insult my Jesus crackers like that.
  Mmmmmm ... Jesus!
  
  --
  "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
40. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by icebike · 2012-12-21 12:11 · Score: 1
  
  There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  You over state the case.
  You need not eradicate culture to protect against polio. That is simplistic nonsense.
  
  --
  Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
41. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 12:25 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  You don't get the danger. Most children in the west aren't vaccinated against Polio (makes no sense here and there's a small risk involved to the child), in Africa very few children are vaccinated at all in large areas. I don't know about South America or China, but I doubt the situation is much better. If even one of those tribal children gets out* with the disease, it will kill thousands and maim tens of thousands of children, maybe hundreds of thousands. This has happened before, and it is an absolute certainty it can happen again. This is what happens to ~30% of infected children take a look.
  Those are the stakes. To be extremely frank, I'm ambivalent on whether it would be moral to nuke this disease out of existence. Nuking this disease would easily help more people than it would hurt, even if it does hurt millions.
  The conspiracy theories of these tribes, killing and sterilizing anyone perceived as different, are simply what they would do themselves if they could. They probably perceive doing that as part of their religion. They may even be right about that, I don't know. Fortunately those aid workers don't share their religion.
  * very sorry to put it that way
42. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by couchslug · 2012-12-21 12:38 · Score: 1
  
  "Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?"
  In the case of Islam, cultural eradication would be desirable in terms of human progress, but is impractical, because Superstition is perfectly evolved to resist outside attack.
  Superstition must be seen to fail then fall from within. "Dead" Gods failed to deliver and were abandoned, because even superstitious beast-man can generally "get" it when his religious construct fails.
  I wouldn't lift a finger to provide medical care to such a culture. Let them ask their Allah for help and see how that works. If you support any level of Superstition, you support evil. Let Superstitionists choke on their chosen consequences.
  That said, if anyone can PROVE their Sky Fairie exists, I'll kowtow before it. The burden of proof is on those making the assertion that their Flying Spaghetti Monster is real. No proof? Then they can fuck right off because ideas without evidence to support them merit zero respect as do the people who espouse them. Dogma should not replace skeptical inquiry.
  
  --
  "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
43. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Internetuser1248 · 2012-12-21 12:50 · Score: 1
  
  This is also not an isolated incident. The US has done hundreds of secret and sinister plans to subvert and weaken political movements in foreign countries, not to mention the ones that aren't secret at all. From drugs to mines and drones, to funding and equipping terrorist groups, if you live in a third world country the belief that the US is not your friend is not a paranoid conspiracy theory, it is a sensible precaution based on experience. The US admits as much themselves.
  
  Using the words hillbilly and conspiracy theory to describe this situation may be accurate in this particular interest, but to generalise that to all poor countries where the population is suspicious of the US is just arrogant and offensive.
44. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Eglaelin · 2012-12-21 13:01 · Score: 1
  
  The Prime Directive is a form of moral cowardice based on moral relativity. It is the one thing from Star Trek which just makes no sense. The idea that you should let a civilization die just because you are afraid of the possible contamination. Having people go in to perform Polio vaccinations isn't going to eradicate their culture. It is actually a means of protecting their culture from massive suffering and possible death. Living according to moral relativism fails when actually applied. There are some activities which are just wrong and letting people hide behind 'culture' is foolish.
  
  --
  Chance Favors The Prepared Mind
45. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Sardaukar86 · 2012-12-21 13:30 · Score: 1
  
  Wow, you missed his point so hugely I can't think of a suitable metaphor. The whoosh is strong with this one.
  
  --
  ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
46. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Sardaukar86 · 2012-12-21 13:49 · Score: 1
  
  Religion is all about sex control
  Oh for sure, although that's only because it's part of the bigger picture of religion which is all about behavioural, financial and thought control for the betterment of a cynical and elite few.
  Exactly how things are playing out in Pakistan as per TFA (which of course I haven't read).
  Anyone with an ounce of common sense has known this for some time now:
  "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
  Lucius Annaeus Seneca (ca. 4 BC – AD 65)
  
  --
  ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
47. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by ne0n · 2012-12-21 14:41 · Score: 1
  
  Speaking of lobotomy, in the fifties there was a "lobotomy fever" in the USA, thousands of men, women and children had their frontal lobes severed in an outpatient operation. Until the fifties it was still normal to sterilize undesirables - again in the good old USA. And it really hasn't been that long since mainstream physicians prescribed Camels and mercury pills. Even today you're likely to have a dentist try to lodge mercury amalgam in your mouth if you go in for a filling. Some of them still think fluoride is good for you too. Mine gave out fluoride pills when I was a kid, we didn't know better back then but soon learned about dental fluorosis.
  
  Given the spotty history of American medicine I guess you can expect a bit of reticence from people who have been bombed back into the stone age by American bombs and munitions - either in American hands or by American-sponsored terrorists. Maybe it's understandable they'd have a few reservations about being jabbed for a vanishing disease.
  
  --
  $ :(){ :|:& };:
48. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by khallow · 2012-12-21 15:31 · Score: 1
  
  Seems like every backward region I've ever been too has been awash in conspiracy theories, urban legends, and superstitious horseshit.
  That's not at all surprising. What would be surprising is if you had actually been to a place that wasn't backward and hillbilly. I don't know of any on Earth, for example.
49. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by AK+Marc · 2012-12-21 16:03 · Score: 2
  
  Is it a conspiracy theory when it's proven that the US used fake vaccine programs to assassinate people in Pakistan? Perhaps the issue is that the US should be tried in international court for war crimes for carrying out military operations under the false flag of medical aid. Instead, they are treated as idiots when they shut down similar operations out of fear of further covert military action.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
50. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by AK+Marc · 2012-12-21 16:07 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The conspiracy theories of these tribes, killing and sterilizing anyone perceived as different, are simply what they would do themselves if they could.
  The US performed covert military operations disguised as medical aid with the goal of assassinating people in Pakistan. It's not an irrational conspiracy theory, it's their daily life.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
51. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by firewrought · 2012-12-21 18:14 · Score: 2
  
  Turkey's "cultural lobotomy" wasn't entirely bloodless was it?
  Check your dates: the Armenian Genocide was conducted by the Ottoman government prior to their being overthrown and replaced by the Republic of Turkey that Ataturk morphed into a secular state. Now it did take a war with 200,000 deaths to create the Republic, and I'm sure that, not being a historian, there are some complications I don't appreciate. But the secularization--the forced cultural shift that freed Turkish politics from the grip of religious posturing--seems to have been largely bloodless.
  
  --
  -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
52. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Sir_Sri · 2012-12-21 18:42 · Score: 1
  
  Those are the stakes.
  
  Indeed, and so perhaps we should go with what works, rather than charging in guns blazing. Clearly the UN did not bribe the right people, and clearly the US should avoid trying to use vaccinations as intelligence gathering tools.
  
  I'm ambivalent on whether it would be moral to nuke this disease out of existence. Nuking this disease would easily help more people than it would hurt, even if it does hurt millions.
  
  Considering there are 200 million people in pakistan, and they have nukes, and there are only a few thousand cases of polio a year... your solution seems... cowboyish.
  
  Most children in the west aren't vaccinated against Polio
  
  It's still part of routine vaccinations in the US, canada, china, japan etc. AFAIK. I know for sure you can't go to school here in ontario without polio vaccinations because my cousins children have a mother who thinks vaccines cause autism and was trying to not vaccinate them.
53. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Sir_Sri · 2012-12-21 18:43 · Score: 1
  
  Well, the second time. The first time you fought a civil war over it, and then 100 years later *still* had to send in the army to get to the drinking fountains. So it didn't work very well.
54. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Xeranar · 2012-12-21 18:45 · Score: 1
  
  100, 000 cases of polio. There, I said it. Cultural eradication in this case would be tragic but inevitable. Especially considering they breed a threat to the world over.
55. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by ultranova · 2012-12-21 20:40 · Score: 2
  
  Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  
  100,000 cases of polio. "Cultural eradication" doesn't actually harm anyone, but polio does.
  
  --
  Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
56. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by ultranova · 2012-12-21 21:48 · Score: 1
  
  Not reincarnate. Isn't that the whole point?
  
  --
  Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
57. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Psyborgue · 2012-12-21 23:06 · Score: 1
  
  In this case, I think cultural eradication would be a plus... unless you think there is some redeeming value to the taliban. Short term discomfort -- long term stability. This is not saying I would actually support such an endeavor. It's far too expensive and we don't have the stomach for the brutality required to accomplish the task. The soviets did, and had we not interfered in Afghanistan, they would have exterminated the religious caste and we would all be better off. No 9/11. No Taliban, etc...
58. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by ConfusedVorlon · 2012-12-21 23:40 · Score: 1
  
  1) While people believe that the vaccination programs are part of a crazy conspiracy, then children will die.
  2) On at least one occasion, (Osama Bin Laden), the USA has used a vaccination program as part of a conspiracy to find the guy they wanted to kill (and some of his family)
  3) Now we need to convince people that all the _other_ conspiracy theories are crazy and would never happen.
  4) Meanwhile in the same region, the USA (and others?) kill men women and children with rockets from their robot drones
  Why don't they just trust us?
  
  --
  VLC Remote for iPhone and Android
59. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by Psyborgue · 2012-12-21 23:50 · Score: 1
  
  It almost reminds me of a Babylon 5 Episode where an entire race was wiped out because they believed an illness to be a curse and a cure to be against god's will. Problem is in this case, it's just a section of the population and the results of their ignorance could easily pose a danger to the rest of us.
60. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by makomk · 2012-12-22 01:48 · Score: 1
  
  From what I can tell, the CIA were practically bragging about how clever they were for disguising their operatives as health workers doing polio vaccinations to anyone in the media that would listen. The only way you could've missed it is if you were living in a cave somewhere when Osama was assassinated.
61. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by khallow · 2012-12-22 16:02 · Score: 1
  
  There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy. Whats worse 100,000 cases of polio or cultural eradication?
  This problem exists only because the Taliban, known cultural eradicators are willing to inflict a great deal of harm on their victims in the process.
62. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by strikethree · 2012-12-23 23:34 · Score: 1
  
  Then why don't they offer to distribute the vaccines themselves? Polio is quite literally a crippling disease. One that no person would willingly undergo, and yet the Taliban are making that decision for others. Children even. Absolutely despicable.
  
  --
  "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
63. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by LurkerXXX · 2012-12-24 05:55 · Score: 1
  
  The tribesman don't trust the central government of Packistan any more than they trust us, so that doesn't really get you anywhere.
64. Re:Hillbilly regions and their conspiracy theories by LurkerXXX · 2012-12-24 06:03 · Score: 1
  
  Fluoride *is* good for you. In limited amounts. Any substance you can name will cause problems if you take too much of it. They were off in concentration, which caused the fluorosis.
Biological warfare by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

I guess the Taliban have obtained biological weapons of mass destruction after all. They didn't need any fancy technology, just a whole lot of stupidity.
1. Re:Biological warfare by i+kan+reed · 2012-12-21 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  Are you a moron, Pakistan has been a nuclear nation for decades and are not run by the Taliban.
2. Re:Biological warfare by MightyMartian · 2012-12-21 08:31 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  The problem is that Pakistan isn't run by anyone, or rather there are two parallel governments and much of the country's chaos stems from the friction and competition between the official civil government and the army on one side and the vast labrythine security services on the other.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Why say 'shot' when they were killed? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:13 · Score: 1

'Shot' makes it sound like they survived. Just say 'Polio Eradication Program Suspended In Pakistan After Aid Workers KILLED'
1. Re:Why say 'shot' when they were killed? by alexander_686 · 2012-12-21 08:17 · Score: 2
  
  MURDERD.
  Killed could mean anything - from an accidental car death to dying from bullets falling from the sky after a round of celebratory gunfire.
2. Re:Why say 'shot' when they were killed? by DigiShaman · 2012-12-21 08:39 · Score: 1
  
  Narrative journalism is based around political correctness. That's why the word 'killed' was used as opposed to something with true motive. Murder!
  
  --
  Life is not for the lazy.
3. Re:Why say 'shot' when they were killed? by larry+bagina · 2012-12-21 08:46 · Score: 2
  
  Allegedly killed. I haven't seen the body, have you? We can't rule out the possibility that the deaths were faked for insurance fraud. All we know is that someone, who may or may not really exist, may or may not now be dead.
  
  --
  Do you even lift?
  These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
4. Re:Why say 'shot' when they were killed? by Sardaukar86 · 2012-12-21 15:08 · Score: 1
  
  Well that's real helpful. How're we 'sposed to get our righteous on with that kind of objective thinking?
  
  --
  ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
Nigeria, Pakistan and Afghanistan by Quila · 2012-12-21 08:15 · Score: 1

Find the similarities.
Pakistan by arcite · 2012-12-21 08:16 · Score: 1, Insightful

Pakistan is a beautiful country, particularly in the North. And their food is fantastic, the people are hospitable. It is tragic that the government there has little desire or ability to keep a lid on these extremist wackos. Pakistan is indeed a dangerous country.
1. Re:Pakistan by MightyMartian · 2012-12-21 08:21 · Score: 2
  
  I once read it being referred to as "the country that should never have been."
  The partition of the Subcontinent is a tragedy that is still happening.
  
  --
  The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
2. Re:Pakistan by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:22 · Score: 1
  
  the people are hospitable.
  As long as you're Usama Bin Laden and you aren't American ...
3. Re:Pakistan by jythie · 2012-12-21 09:13 · Score: 1
  
  No, actually, once you get away from the insurgents, the actual villages can be pretty hospitable to Americans, provided you learn some of the basic manners and customs.
More info by andy1307 · 2012-12-21 08:18 · Score: 4, Informative

The Pakistani taliban were against the polio campaign before the Abbotabad operation.
Then there's this: Afghan Taliban support polio vaccination campaign
So it's not really fair to blame this on the CIA's operation...
1. Re:More info by Jeng · 2012-12-21 08:25 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Actually I will blame the CIA.
  They went and took an urban legend and made it true.
  Now when the Taliban says "We killed aid workers because they were spying on us." we can't say they are full of shit anymore.
  
  --
  Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
2. Re:More info by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2012-12-21 08:38 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Ya, blame the CIA the same way you'd blame the police when a bank crook shoots a hostage.
  I was wondering how many posts it would take for someone to twist this to blame the US for not dancing in a way sensitive to dictatorial murderers.
  The only thing I blame the US for is letting the doctor go to jail instead of rescuing him. This is the US fleeing Vietnam and letting all the South Vietnamese who helped us fall into the hands of the North, writ small.
  
  --
  (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
3. Re:More info by Jeng · 2012-12-21 08:55 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  No.
  Very stupid bad people used a very paranoid conspiracy theory for the justification of killing people.
  The CIA went and made that conspiracy theory true.
  You can't see how that is a very wrong thing to do?
  
  --
  Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
4. Re:More info by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:57 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  GP's point is that it's not a "hillbilly conspiracy theory" if the CIA was actually putting agents in among aid workers. If they did that, they are endangering the aid workers by making them a legitimate target of (admittedly informal) counterintelligence.
  I'd bet $20 that you didn't blame the U.S. military for the deaths of Iraqi civilians back when Saddam had placed his military bases in among them,* but blamed Saddam instead. You'd have been justified, but you can't have it both ways.
  * (Actually, you'd be a little less justified. The costs of placing a base away from a water source in a desert are prohibitive for a cash-strapped nation, and everywhere there's a water source, there are also people who you can't afford to displace. The CIA has no such excuse for using aid workers as human shields. Dick move, CIA.)
5. Re:More info by timeOday · 2012-12-21 10:02 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Sorry, but no. This operation was equivalent to painting a red cross on your vehicle so you can get closer to the bad guys before opening fire on them. (In fact it was almost precisely that). In doing so, they painted a target on the backs of medical workers for the next 50 years. It's a nightmare come true for Doctors Without Borders and similar organizations, and they have condemned it.
6. Re:More info by timeOday · 2012-12-21 10:15 · Score: 1
  
  By the way, I am not claiming by any means that murdering these health workers was justified. I hope Pakistan is able to track them down and throw them in jail. And the future cases of polio that will now occur are an additional tragedy of ignorance.
7. Re:More info by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 10:19 · Score: 1
  
  Let's turn this around for a second. Suppose the Taliban used ambulances to move bombs close to US bases and they blow them up while they are being inspected. As a consequence, suppose US soldiers are then instructed to shoot any ambulances who approach them on sight. Obviously now lots of innocent ambulance drivers die because they accidentally get close to American soldiers. That would be a shitty thing for American soldiers to do, but let's ignore that. The question is, does the Taliban have any, even the slightest, responsibility for these ambulance driver deaths? Is it in any slight way the Taliban's fault that, in this scenario, Americans are killing these ambulance drivers? Did they do something bad (beyond the bombs) by violating a trust - the trust that health care personnel are non-combatants? I guess you think they didn't - if you do, should you then not also think that the CIA did the same thing by planting a spy as a fake health care worker, thus making all health care workers legitimate targets in the war?
  Assuming of course that there really was such a spy, but you weren't attacking that claim - you were actually implicitly confirming it.
8. Re:More info by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2012-12-21 10:20 · Score: 1
  
  They went and took an urban legend and made it true.
  It's never been an urban legend. The CIA and other intelligence organizations have been doing this for centuries. The bread and butter of their trade is building legitimate covers for their agents, and recruiting folks who are legitimate, and have access to sensitive data or areas.
  A diplomatic mission will always have a few: just look for the ones who are way more intelligent and clever for their official jobs. Journalists? Hell, their real job is to snoop around in places where they have no business. Foreign businessmen looking around about investing in the technology business in a country? Well, they just might want to know what technology the country has under its fingernails. Truly altruistic aid workers? Before they head off to some hell hole, they will be visited by someone who claims that they can really help the people, by just doing some observing for the government.
  Some of these folks know they are willingly working for the CIA. The KGB used to call these "agents." Some of these folks do not realize that they are actually working for an intelligence agency. The KGB called these "agents of influence." For example, a woman aid worker might downright refuse to work with the CIA. But if approached by someone from a Women's Rights group, she might unknowingly pass on information to the "Rights Group" that ends up in CIA hands.
  This is why foreigners in some places are often treated like spies. Well, there is a good chance, that no matter what they are up to, this might actually be true. Even the Grand Mufti ObL was wise enough to know this. But he was also wise enough to know that most of these folks were in fact just trying to help. So he left them alone, and let his counter-intelligence folks try to sniff out the others. In the US, the FBI handles this. They tail suspicious visiting diplomats, journalist, businessmen and academics, to see if they have another private agenda.
  So, unfortunately, the vacuum that ObL left, is now filled with dumb-asses who think that since one doctor was a spy, all doctors must spies. In reality, nothing has changed. Intelligence folks will use whatever means possible to put people in the position to collect intelligence. That's just the way they have always worked. Back to the dawn of the first traveling merchants.
  
  --
  Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Fake program was for hepatitis, not polio by Anonymous Coward · 2012-12-21 08:18 · Score: 3, Informative

The summary is screwed up - the fake program used in searching for bin Laden was for hepatitis B, not polio.
Taliban: scum of the Earth by blind+biker · 2012-12-21 08:22 · Score: 1

By killing the UN workers, they are potentially killing thousands of children.

--
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
1. Re:Taliban: scum of the Earth by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2012-12-21 08:41 · Score: 1
  
  I'm willing to bet "Hmmm. An outcomes-based study showing our ideas yielded a huge increase in deaths" will never cross these savages' minds.
  
  --
  (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
So what? It's self correcting in the long run by gelfling · 2012-12-21 08:28 · Score: 1, Interesting

Eventually run out of people to get killed or crippled by polio and the rest of us can get on with living in the 21st century.
Explain This to Me Again? by eldavojohn · 2012-12-21 08:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

I hope the families of the slain sue and are successful in getting bazzzilions of dollars out of the idiot Americans.
So the Sikhs that were killed in the wake of 9/11 as "blowback" should sue the Taliban and Al-Queda?

Man, "justice" sure is fucked up where you're from.

Oh yeah, and Americans are idiots.
Ah yes, it is the entire American populace that are idiots. Yep, we were all part of everything you just said. Not one of us opposes it. All of us act together uniformly. No one protests. Man, for people who like to criticize Americans as racist bigots, they sure could look in the mirror from time to time.

--
My work here is dung.
1. Re:Explain This to Me Again? by NeutronCowboy · 2012-12-21 10:22 · Score: 1
  
  At some point though, "Americans" becomes shorthand for "the majority of Americans", "the American government" or "a loud and significant minority of Americans". And that it stays that way is partially the fault of the others. I dislike this situation as much as the next rational American, but.... that's the reality. We can either deal with it, or just blame the messenger.
  
  --
  Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
How did they drift so far apart? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2012-12-21 08:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

India and Pakistan are basically same culturally. Of course, India is largely Hindu but with substantial Muslim population (actually India has more Muslims than Pakistan!) and Pakistan is mostly Muslim. But apart from the religious division, culturally, linguistically, ethnically they are not far apart and they were the same country till 1947. Theoretically Hindus with their caste divisions are supposed to fare worse than casteless Muslim majority Pakistan. But somehow in the last seventy years they have charted a completely different course. Both had the same judicial system, revenue/governance systems, English language, and railways, armed forces inherited from the Brits.
Pakistan allied itself to NATO and America, allowed its land to be used freely for US spy planes, Voice of America broadcast stations, bought every bit of military hardware US was allowed to export, from Patton Tanks, to F-16s to E-3 Hawk-eyes to stinger missiles to.... India claimed to be a leader of Non-Aligned movement, but in fact it was leaning towards USSR with MIG-21, MIG-23, Sukai, Hind helicopters and T-72 tanks etc.
But though both countries were mired in poverty, somehow India's democracy thrived. No one would mistake India for a developed country, with its slums and open sewers and congested roads and perennial power cuts and corrupt politicians and periodical flare up of communal violence. But somehow it is emerging out of it, in fits and starts, cornered the cheap back office white collar market, some good IT companies, decent medical systems, eradicated polio, making good progress on other diseases...
I don't think the difference is religion. I think the difference is government dominated by the military in Pakistan, and civilians in firm control of the military in India. That I think set a completely different social processes, incentives in the economy etc. I think economists should study how this process happened instead of wasting their time out doing one another in forecasting gloom and doom following the fiscal cliff. More and more the economists are looking like Mayans predicting the end of the world at the end of their long count calender.

--
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
1. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by gtall · 2012-12-21 09:01 · Score: 1
  
  India and Pakistan both inherited British bureaucracy. That got them off on the wrong foot. The Muslims, as they seem to do everywhere else, cannot stand living in close proximity to non-Muslims so they up and left to East and West Pakistan. East became Bangladesh when they found they didn't care for the crazy West. Given the wars between India and Pakistan, India (under Indira Gandhi) just had to make it worse by letting off a nuke thus showing the Paks they had big dicks. So Pakistan just had to have their nuke otherwise their dicks would also grow in stature. The nutjobs on both sides always seem to be spoiling for a fight. The U.S. should never have sided with Pakistan early on. It only fed Pakistan arrogance.
2. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by Attila+Dimedici · 2012-12-21 09:04 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  There was a study done a few years back that I think is related to what you are trying to get at. It was observed that certain groups from that part of the world assimilated into British society more readily than others. In particular they studied people from a particular region on the subcontinent and observed that the non-Muslims assimilated more readily than the Muslims, yet this was not necessarily true of Muslims from other regions(although it was true of a larger fraction of Muslims than other groups). They attempted to determine what was different.
  When they studied the immigrants from that particular region they discovered that while all of them practiced arranged marriages with cousins, the Muslims from that region practiced patrilineal arranged marriages and the non-Muslims practiced Matrilineal arranged marriages. In addition, the clan structure was patrilineal. The effect was that among the non-Muslims, a young woman left her father's clan and married into the clan her mother came from. This tended to encourage relationships across clan boundaries. On the other hand, among the Muslims a young woman stayed within the clan she grew up in when she got married. This tended to encourage clans to remain divided. As far as I know, the practice of patrilineal arranged marriages is not a doctrine of Islam. However, it appears that most Muslim areas practice it. I wish I could remember the reference for the study because the authors made a compelling case that this practice explained the intractability of many of the cultural pathologies of Muslim countries. In addition, the authors brought in how other cultures with a similar patrilineal marriage pattern had similar pathologies, even when the cultures had few other common elements.
  
  --
  The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
3. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by rgbrenner · 2012-12-21 09:11 · Score: 1
  
  actually India has more Muslims than Pakistan!
  [citation needed]
  CIA Factbook and Wikipedia disagree with you (160m in India(CIA&wikipedia) VS 180m in pakistan (CIA) or 171m (wikipedia)).
4. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2012-12-21 10:59 · Score: 1
  
  OK, so now they have over taken India. Interesting. Some time back, India had the largest muslim population. Then Indonesia overtook it. Now Pakistan too. Thanks for the info. I stand corrected.
  
  --
  sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
5. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2012-12-21 11:18 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Patrilineal endogamy [*] is not an Islamic doctrine. It is practiced by Muslims in the regions that were once a part of Ottoman Empire. Endogamy in general is encouraged by societies to conserve the family wealth, and to reduce subdivision of land among the heirs. Most eastern countries allow child of a woman to marry the child of her brother. It is less common but not taboo in Europe. Most aristocrats end up marrying their cousins. Even Einstein married his cousin.
  Deleterious (harmful) mutations are lot more common than beneficial mutations. So when the marriage happens between very closely related individuals, the deleterious mutations reduce the fitness of the off spring. But if marriage always happens between very distantly related individuals, the beneficial mutations do not get a chance to take hold. So what is the optimal genetic distance? Jared Diamond mentions that a genetic distance of 1/8 to 1/64 was found to be the optimum. Genetic distance between siblings, parent-child is 0.5. Between first cousins it is 0.125. (0.5 * 0.5 * 0.5). Between second cousins it is 1/64. This was found by genetic analysis of bird populations that are free to choose their mates. The assumption is whatever genetic distance is the most favored or most common would have been the optimum arrived at by millennia of evolution.
  Coming back to the patrilineal endogamy, it explains very well the allegiance of most Iraqis to their sheiks (clan leaders) rather than religion, sect, country. Some people attribute the lack of women's rights in a divorce also sets a completely different social dynamic. But whatever is the root cause, Pakistan is a failed state with nuclear weapons. It can not be left to sort its future out the way we let Angola or Sierra Leon. They got nukes. Either they give up nukes like Ukraine, and other *stans. Or they shape up.
  [*] Patrilineal endogamy: Marriage between children of brothers is allowed. Sometimes encouraged.
  
  --
  sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
6. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by Attila+Dimedici · 2012-12-21 11:54 · Score: 1
  
  You confirmed what I believed to be true, that patrilineal endogamy is not an Islamic doctrine. You spent a bit of time explaining the genetic issues with endogamy. My post made the point that societies where a daughter marries the son of her mother's brother (or cousin if her brother does not have a suitable son) have fewer of the social pathologies we often associate with Muslim cultures. On the other hand, societies where a daughter marries the son of her father's brother (or cousin if his brother does not have a suitable son) do exhibit those pathologies, even when those societies do not practice Islam.
  My understanding is that the Muslims of Pakistan, India and Afghanistan practice patrilineal endogamy. These areas were never part of the Ottoman Empire.
  
  --
  The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
7. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by Going_Digital · 2012-12-22 01:32 · Score: 1
  
  It is the difference between being controlled by a single all persuasive religion where people fear to step out-of-line in Pakistan and a multi-faith community like india where people have the freedom to think for themselves and choose any religion they want.
8. Re:How did they drift so far apart? by segwonk · 2012-12-23 11:29 · Score: 1
  
  Patrilineal endogamy [*] is not an Islamic doctrine.....
  
  Thank you Jamuna for this interesting post. There is an awful lot of complaining on this site about how it has deteriorated over the years. Perhaps. But I still love reading Slashdot because there are still a lot of damn smart comments.
  
  - jw
  
  --
  - ------ Go 'til ya know.
Eradicate the Pollos! by TheSync · 2012-12-21 08:43 · Score: 1

The font (on OS X Chrome) on this article really makes the headline look like "Pollo Eradication", which I suppose is what they do at "Pollo Campero"!
1. Re:Eradicate the Pollos! by dev.null.matt · 2012-12-21 09:27 · Score: 1
  
  I always thought the only kind of camp that Pollo Campero could be would be a chicken death camp.
So... more blowback? by EmoryM · 2012-12-21 08:53 · Score: 1

1. Use a polio vaccination program as a front for a CIA operation
2. Let people know
3. Polio vaccination program treated as a front for a CIA operation
4. OUTRAGE
Re:Why is he mod'ed Flamebait by flayzernax · 2012-12-21 09:02 · Score: 1

It is also a missuse of the moderation system, however it was slightly inflamatory. The way parent states all people with beliefs against the current authoritative response to vaccines and forgien aid are conspiratorial nuts. This is not 100% accurate.
Re:Yeah, that's great, except... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-12-21 09:03 · Score: 1

The CIA vaccination thing actually reads like some kind of fan service to conspiracy theorists...
The actual CIA, actually using a vaccine plot to gather DNA in an effort to direct an officially nonexistent model of stealth black helicopter carrying a kill team composed of officially nonexistent commandos to the correct target. Seriously, most conspiracy theories don't pack that much conspiracy theory...
Sterile Children by ThePeices · 2012-12-21 09:29 · Score: 1

Of COURSE the children are sterile, they havent even reached puberty yet!
Idiots!
no surprises by spongman · 2012-12-21 10:05 · Score: 1

look, these people support, and allow their children to succumb to, a toxic disease that criples their prospects and permeates their society. a disease that's been around for a long time, that we've only recently been aware that it's possible to eradicate, and they actively resist attempts to help them rid themselves of it - even killing those that attempt to help.
and there's also polio.
Every crippled child is the taliban's fault by kawabago · 2012-12-21 10:14 · Score: 1

Make sure the locals know that every child crippled or killed by polio is the direct fault of the taliban. They can keep out health workers but not information. The taliban is waging Satan's war against the children of Pakistan. The parents should be actively fighting back. If you know where a taliban lives, kill him in his sleep, poison his food, whatever it takes. His wife will thank you. Shoot them in back. Blow them up with their own bombs. Use your imagination. Every taliban you kill gets you that much closer to Heaven!
Aaaah, CIA... by SlovakWakko · 2012-12-21 10:17 · Score: 1

...once again destroying a massive effort of thousands of people for the pure evilness of it. It's like anybody who isn't an American isn't even human to them.
that's complete bullshit by circletimessquare · 2012-12-21 10:27 · Score: 1

a guy ready to shoot health workers is not a representative of any culture or set of beliefs. plenty of intelligent and well-adjusted pakistanis are valid representatives of their culture, and they want polio eradicated

There's no way to win this issue without completely destroying these peoples autonomy.
oh my god, shut up you moron. giving people polio vaccine does not destroy anyone's culture.
why do you think this atrocity represents some sort of valid defense of a culture? what other insane lies do you swallow?

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
1. Re:that's complete bullshit by circletimessquare · 2012-12-21 15:21 · Score: 1
  
  Can't tell if you are a hard working troll or one of the dumbest fucking morons I've come across in awhile.
  
  --
  intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
2. Re:that's complete bullshit by circletimessquare · 2012-12-21 16:10 · Score: 1
  
  your problem is you seem to think these people represent something about pakistan. pakistanis want polio vaccine, and the people who don't want it are a deranged murderous fringe. they don't represent any culture, certainly not pakistan. they represent a psychological pathology
  your argument is so fucking stupid because it's like looking at theodore kaczynski, charles manson, or jim jones as some sort of authentic representatives of a culture. that 's how pakistanis view these polio vaccinator murderers
  if you are trolling me, congratulations on a successful troll. if you are actually incredibly amazingly serious, please grow some fucking brain cells. that you process murdering vaccinators as representative of pakistani culture is patronizing, condescending, and grossly misrepresenting pakistan. i can laugh at you for being so stupid, or cry that there's people like you who would actually believe such mental diarrhea, but never can i take these words of yours seriously, as you are missing out somewhere in cognition to arrive at this insulting farce of an opinion
  
  --
  intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
3. Re:that's complete bullshit by circletimessquare · 2012-12-21 19:58 · Score: 1
  
  you've made it your business to comment on a topic. i judged you harshly for that. i'm just one voice on the internet, you need not take my solitary judgment so seriously. but i stand behind my judgment, i find your "reasoning" such as it is deplorable, and i hold it against you. you are free to speak on any topic you want, but you aren't free from the consequences of the quality of your speech or lack thereof
  
  --
  intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Re:Yeah, The ISI Line Of Argument by Sir_Sri · 2012-12-21 11:12 · Score: 1

I never said helpless. I said not interested.
The chaos kills a lot of pakistani's, don't be under any illusion, they are in the midst of a war they don't really want to fight. And for the moment they're trying to not make it worse.
Re:the truth of the matter is the united nations.. by the+eric+conspiracy · 2012-12-21 12:23 · Score: 1

It seems to me that population reduction will occur regardless of whether or not the UN has a hand in it.
Your link is to a crackpot site, I hope you realize.
Re:Yeah, The ISI Line Of Argument by aurispector · 2012-12-21 13:08 · Score: 1

I'd really like to know how you can make it worse than by letting psychotic religious fanatics take over large swaths of the country.

--
I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
Re:the truth of the matter is the united nations.. by 3seas · 2012-12-21 13:11 · Score: 2

You do realize I was pointing to a video of Bill Gates speaking at a TED event....
Eheh... yeah... backward regions by SmallFurryCreature · 2012-12-21 13:54 · Score: 1

The US must be one giant hillbilly country there. Where is Donald "Batshit Insane" Trump from? For that matter, right here on this site you can find plenty of conspiracy theorists.
Just yesterday the Nazi Pope released another message of hate unto the world, a message most Americans seem to believe. That homosexuals are the end of humanity or some such bull crap. And plenty here believe it.
Plenty people in the west also are against vaccinations, including Polio and these fucktards are bringing long dead diseases back because of their moronic beliefs.
The truth is that modern society is very scary for some people with all its self-determination and humanity and all. Far easier to follow some guy in a dress and be certain you go to heaven despite all the contradictions.
But at the core is that guy in a dress who is either just plain insane or just plain evil and he manipulates peoples minds to give himself power and it WORKS. Has ALWAYS worked and you can't stop it by being nice. Being nice is like dancing the tango. It takes two. Being nasty is like fighting and only requires one. As long as their is power to be had by being nasty, you can only change things by being even nastier. You can't negotiate with the Taliban because they want EVERYTHING and see you not as an obstacle but your eradication as the very goal. Look at Somalia, mass starvation but the Muslim areas are closed of to aid workers because those in power rather see people starve then risk losing control over them.
You can try and attempt to look at little personal reasons why each individual is behaving like this, try to see it as family drama's were the father sees himself as so important that he rather kill his family off rather then admit he needs help, overly inflated ego's seeing themselves as the dispensers of all wisdom...
But why bother. By the time you solved one guys issue, ten thousand more will have sprung up. Cure one homophobic Pope and the next one will be showing his dangly bits to the bishops who ALL have child rapist among their underlings and did nothing about it. The systems are rotten to the core, taking the rotten apples out of the basket will do nothing if the basket is the source of the rot. Their is power in being a nasty narrow minded prick and power always seduces. Sure you may be ruler of a shitty corner of the world nobody else wants but you are the ruler.
And the real kicker is of course that even the tiniest kernel of truth to all these myths, makes them true enough for most. Organs HAVE been harvested in the world. Not on a massive scale but enough to give the story alluded to by the parent an eternal life. Just check how many here believe the conspiracy theories.
I don't have an easy answer for any of this, this is humanity when you stop pretending and see the little shits around you for the little shits that they are. And then ultimately, you got to look in the mirror and ask yourself. Am I a little shit?
99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% should answer yes. Heaven does not exist because natures abhors a vacuum. Hell does not exist either, it exploded long ago from over-stuffing.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
No, he is not joking. He is rationalizing by SmallFurryCreature · 2012-12-21 14:00 · Score: 2

Rationalizing is a sad disease that affects those that have a tiny tiny tiny voice telling them things ain't right in the world but they don't want to do anything about it because it would involve effort and risks their cosy little lives.
It is seen as such stuff as people saying child labor ain't so bad because at least it means kids have an income, that slave labor conditions are better then having no job etc etc. And that horrible nasty practices should be preserved because else you are not respecting peoples culture. Oddly enough these people NEVER preserve their OWN culture, they did take the polio vaccination because apparently THEIR culture was not worth preserving. Only OTHER people should be kept in a primitive backward miserable state to preserve cultural diversion and totally by accident the power of their own culture.
Basically, the grand parent is an elitist asshole trying to rationalize why others must live in misery to preserve their cultures so he can not associate with them.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
To simplistic by SmallFurryCreature · 2012-12-21 14:39 · Score: 1

India is indeed not a simple country and the lack of a Taliban style movement in India amongs it many Muslims is explained by some by the fact that a Muslim in India, despite being among the lowest of the low, STILL has it better then a Muslim in Pakistan. This idea is also present in the Middle East were Muslims in Israel are better off then Muslims in say Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon. Even for the Palestines, you see an unreal connection to Israel, they rely on it for jobs, education, medicine, law and even political systems. Don't forget that the Palestines had a vote... it might not sound like much to you but it is pretty damn rare for a Muslim to have one. An elected government. For that matter, Israel has a Muslim party and Muslims in government. How is the ethnic diversity being handled in the rest of the middle east?
Why do you think the Palestines are always looking in? The complaints are always about the Palestine-Israel borders being closed, there is a border on the other side (just as closed often) why not cross THAT one for jobs, medical care, education, shopping, etc etc? If Palestine is a refugee area, it would be like Anna Frank digging a tunnel from Holland into Germany to go to work, go to the doctor etc etc. You would think refugee's would dig AWAY from the place they fled. They don't. There is a reason for that.
It is always hard to choose between a fridge in your house and your ethnic heritage. It is the reason you see lots of grumbling among European Muslims but nobody actually leaving. For that matter, the reason you see very few people moving away from modern countries no matter how much they grumble. How many republicans who said they would emigrate actually did? In France with the election of a socialist government ONE actor moved to Belgium. One.
Most people stay put, put up and grumble if the comfort outweighs the perceived injustices. Better to eat then to life as you say you want eating dirt, with no fridge.
The parent thinks it is the type of leadership... except he ignores that EVERY Muslim country that does even remotely well, did so under military rule and enforced secularity. Turkey is slipping as it becomes more democratic. Yes, it has massive economic growth... do you also get excited when a penny stock goes up 10%? If I go from 1 dollar and hour to 2 dollars an hour, I have a 100% increase. If I go from 100 to 110 dollars an hour a mere 10%. I know which salary I would rather make. Same with India, yes it is making progress but my god does it still have a long way to go. In many ways far further then you might think because it is not like the west is sitting still.
No, the secret to India and its relative peace (IE, it looks peaceful from afar but locally the bodies are piled sky high) is upward mobility. You CAN be a Muslim or lowest cast or even casteless and STILL make it. The American dream is a powerful dream and can keep people content for a long long time. Well, just see how well it works in the US, a candidate who says he think 47% of his voters are filth STILL gets 47% of the vote. because in America, ANYONE can make it to the 1%, so the 1% is not raped murdered and pillaged in their sleep.
Pakistan is far less mobile, those in power are in power and they stay there. That is what ultimately was behind the Arab Spring. Remember that Libya was/is RICH. Filthy rich, richer then rich. NOBODY was going hungry in Libya, nobody was poor but there also was NOTHING to strive towards. It educated its young men and then had nothing for them to do but collect a wage in a meaningless job payed for by oil. The peasants revolvted against their king NOT because they had nothing to do but eat cake. Hunger is better then no prospects. When you are hungry in the US, you can dream of when YOUR day will come. When you collect your wellfare with your diploma in Libya, that was your future.
And this is ultimately the problem. Those in power in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan don't want their people to move but the people want to see at least some

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Re:Yeah, that's great, except... by AHuxley · 2012-12-21 15:31 · Score: 1

The CIA vaccination thing actually reads like some kind of fan service to conspiracy theorists...
The sad aspect is the cover was not used for a full set of meds.
The CIA got their DNA and left before the second dose was given.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/07/12/137792912/reports-cia-tried-to-confirm-bin-laden-dna-using-fake-vaccination-drive
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14117438

--
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Re:Yeah, The ISI Line Of Argument by Sir_Sri · 2012-12-21 18:43 · Score: 1

Because they have always been there and in charge, and those swathes of the country are mostly worthless.
CIA action inexcusable by medoc · 2012-12-21 20:20 · Score: 1

Exactly like hiding weaponry in an ambulance in time of war. Then all ambulances get shot at. Inexcusable. The people responsible for this should see serious retribution.
Re:You're a Moron by Jeng · 2012-12-22 11:59 · Score: 1

I am not fuckiing a goddamn moron.
I am a goddamn fucking moron.
Get it straight will ya?

--
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Re:Deep Pockets Theory by Jeng · 2012-12-27 16:32 · Score: 1

Who is talking about damages?
You think this is about a lawsuit?
People are being killed.

--
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
i wasnt gonna comment on anything at all today but by KingBenny · 2013-01-03 10:18 · Score: 1

refusing humanitarian aid to your own population as a means of politicial pressure somewhat deserves an honourable mention. Did i read that right actually it seems a bit unreal?
yah, sorry to say apparently i did

--
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?