Slashdot Mirror
What Debris From North Korea's Rocket Launch Shows
Lasrick writes "David Wright of the Union of Concerned Scientists and the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists analyzes the debris from North Korea's December 11th Unha-3 launch. From the article: 'According to press reports, traces on the inner walls of the tank show that the first-stage oxidizer is a form of nitric acid called "red-fuming nitric acid," which is the standard oxidizer used in Scud-type missiles. There had been some speculation that this stage might instead use a more advanced fuel with nitrogen tetroxide (NTO) as the oxidizer. Since the Nodong engines believed to power the first stage are scaled-up Scud engines, the use of RNFA is not a surprise. There have also been claims that the stage uses a more advanced fuel called UDMH, but it appears instead to be the kerosene-based fuel used in Scuds. In his recent RAND study, Markus Schiller noted that a test Iraq performed using UDMH in a Scud engine gave poor performance, and that burning UDMH gives a transparent flame. The North Korean video of the launch instead shows an orange flame characteristic of Scud fuels (Figure 3 is an image from 12:44 into the video). These findings confirm that the stage is still Scud-level technology.'"
I mean, it was the test of an MRBM/IRBM platform, it really is no surprise that it is only a technological hair away from its SRBM/MRBM ancestor...
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
I wonder how much longer this festering little hell hole will last.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
It got us to the moon several times. Dont discount the "primitive" kerosene as a rocket fuel.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
But does it really matter what "technology" it uses if it can launch a bomb across an ocean? I don't think the parameters for success include "spend X billion inventing a new technology". Just the fact that they have managed to scale it up where other countries decided not to implies some sort of innovation. It's either cheaper, or they figured out a way to do it cheaper.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The Administration recently announced that America would focus their projection of power to the Asian-Pacific region. My guess is that the claims of a long range NK missile are either the allowance of idiotic intelligence assessments to further propaganda goals, or the outright fabrication of assessments for the same purpose.
China will squash NK like a gnat if they threaten regional stability in any real sense, but the if the United States allows that to happen, it will be a blow to perceived US power in that area. There has to be an open ended excuse for a strike or an invasion to avoid that possibility.
The sub-text being that it's not that great a technology. They underestimate the fact that the rocket/missile can still inflict damage if the North Koreans decided to.
Is this thing capable or not capable of reaching orbit?
More importantly, is this thing capable or not capable of reaching targets half way around the globe? The fact is that it can very effectively reach targets on the other side of the globe.
An elitist condescension towards towards the technology, in this case, is as sensible as that attitude towards bashing someone's head in with a hammer. 'Pfft, a hammer, how crude. We use guns." The crudity doesn't really matter, in the end you're dead.
I was wondering whether the analysis was just based on video frames (since they talked about the colors of the flames and such) in the "AllThingsNuclear.org" article. The article itself says that the analysis is based upon four pieces of the first stage of the Unha-3 rocket recovered by South Korea. The author of the article, David Wright, surmises that all four pieces came from the first stage because they "were found in the same area".
.
.
The four parts found were:
1 -- oxidizer tank (made of an aluminum-magnesium alloy)
with a cool picture (fig 4) of the inside of the tank showing hoops and stringers supporting the wall
2 -- two bottles that make the "turbo pumps" to maintain pressure in the oxidizer tank as the fuel flow continues during launch
3 -- another part of the fuel tank (with the number "3" painted on the outside which is visible on the launch video)
4 -- what appears to be a support ring from the first stage body
There's also a comment at the end about using "room temperature fuels" such as RFNA (red fuming nitric acid) allowing the use of a simplified design as compared to using cryogenic fuels which require a more complex design. Someone wrote in pointing out that RFNA is also used in the Russian Kosmos 3M space launch vehicle which is also derived from a ballistic missile. In fact, even the fins and the profile of the Kosmos looks like the fins on and the profile of the North Korean launch rocket. Pretty cool analysis, and I like that the author puts really links to the sources of the pictures he has in the article.
Just imagine all of the PR points you could win just by letting us space nerds in on what you're doing. We'll work most of it out anyway, but take us through all the technical gore. What you are doing seems like the closest thing to launching a fully fledged rocket from your backyard using nothing but spare parts lying around, so we can definitely relate with you here.
All the ballistic missiles and rockets are German V2 scaled ups by your logic.
N.K is now the 11th launch capable country ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite ) and they deserve the credit. No analysis and humiliation could change the fact that a small country which has been under severe embargoes has succeeded in its technical (possibly military) ambitions.
I was not expecting them to be able to put such a heavy satellite in 500km orbit. Iran has only been able to put a sub 50km satellite in a lower orbit.
First of all, you can tell a LOT from this particular data point.
That aside, what are you insinuating? That a group widely and routinely chastised as espousing a "liberal" and/or "leftist" agenda by conservatives, opposed the now-cancelled US Reliable Replacement Warhead (RRW) program, and is opposed to nuclear weapons in general, is executing a propaganda campaign to make North Korea look more primitive than it really is when it comes to its rocket programs?
Are you serious?
After a veritable comedy of errors, North Korea finally has a successful launch, can't even get or keep the satellite launched from it into a stable orbit, and now an anti-nuclear advocacy group is really a secret US propaganda campaign to inappropriately embarrass the North Koreans, who are really more advanced in rocketry than all of their misadventures would indicate? The same North Koreans who just announced they have uncovered a unicorn lair?
Really? I mean...really?
Please â" I would love to hear how this is "propaganda", and how the DPRK is really a capable member of the space and nuclear clubs. To what possible end? Even IF it were true, why/how would that be a good thing?
Or is this one of those topsy-turvy bizarro-world lines of reasoning where anything and everything that is in ANY way opposed to anything related to any US or Western interest is automatically true and pure, but anything that originates from the US or West, in any way, shape, or form is always "propaganda"?
Actually, if you read the article, it points out that you can infer the use of a low pressure room temperature (non-cryogenic) fuel from (1) the relatively thin wall-thickness of the tank, and from (2) the bottles used in the turbo-pumps to maintain pressure in the fuel tank during launch. It points out (3) that while the Scud uses steel for the body of the first stage rocket, the North Korean one uses a more-lightweight aluminum magnesium alloy. ... BS" to me, but hey maybe I'm being taken in?
.
I do agree with you that the article uses a lot of condescension in tone and uses the word "primitive" a lot to imply poor design, so there probably is a bit of propagandizing going on in order to denigrate the launch vehicle. But in my humble (and not very schooled) opinion, the analysis at least clearly lays out where it makes its inferences from and what the source of the imagery is. It doesn't seems like "pure
This would be a better link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_orbital_launches_by_country
Who claimed the NK didn't launch the weapon? You don't understand what a false flag operation is. I'd advise you to read about the Gulf of Tonkin affair, but you'd probably walk away wondering why we fought Vietnam over little toy trucks.
Of course, nobody mentions that the Gemini missions used storable propellants not unlike what the North Koreans are using. Now, it's true that Gemini was launched with Titan rockets, and Titans were originally designed as ICBMs, but they were used for civilian purposes as well.
The more interesting part is that we recovered the missile parts. According to everything I read, the exact timing of the launch was somewhat of a surprise (maybe this isn't true) but nevertheless we managed to track the debris and fish it out of the ocean immediately. This tells the North Koreans that not only do they have no secrets, they never will have any.
To me, the North Korean rocket looks a lot more like a satellite launcher than an ICBM. The first nuclear weapons that North Korea will deploy will be very heavy, and this rocket (as tapered as it is, and with such a small, low-powered third stage) just will not carry it. ICBMs are also designed to burn quickly, as they are vulnerable as long as they are in the atmosphere and burning. This rocket burns for many minutes, as satellite launchers do.
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
It's not just "chemistry" it's freakin' rocket fuel chemistry and acronyms matter lest ye blow up!
Red Fuming Nitric Acid
RFNA is some nasty stuff. Worse liquid propellant oxider ever? Chlorine TriFloride (ClF3). Eats and/or combusts with everything and anything , including service & test engineers.
"...the Nodong engines..."
The whole insecurity of NK is so freudian it could only be put down to having no dong..
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
The problem is that "primitive design" is often read as "poor design" by non-technical people. Primitive designs may be pretty good in themselves, and work quite well, but have become obsoleted by more advanced designs. Now in how far the NK rocket design is obsolete I don't know, the article mentions at least the Russians use the same fuels to launch stuff into orbit.
And of course it's being played down. Many people don't want to see up to the fact that this country managed to put an object in orbit (didn't stay there long though), which places them in a quite short list of countries that did so too.
That said I'd much rather they'd put that much effort in actually feeding their own population. For example by getting their farming going again, instead of having to rely heavily on outside supplies.
RIght. It's not like it's rocket science or anything...
Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind. -- Mark Harrold
The fact that the rocket is based on old technology is "Scud" news for South Korea. /tish
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Most of the countries that have been brought out of some sort of vaguely self-imposed darkness did a lot themselves to start the process: Soviets & their colonies worked hard to produce the sort of consumer goods that the West had and to maintain a standard of living in their own bizarre way - phone lines, cars, washing machines - they might have been crude, they might have been expensive, but they were available. China's going even further in terms of introducing Western methods and their benefits
Are we in the West resourceful enough to take on stewarding a population for whom (and I invent this example as a guess, not as an insult) stainless steel blades for their scythes might be an undreamed of technical advance? Even South Korea, a population that is ethnically near as dammit identical, is so different that refugees from the North apparently suffer extreme shock and inability to cope. And what would we steward and assist them towards?.
NK is the last feudal agrarian society, in large. I would not also be surprised if it didnt prove to be deeply conservative in the way that agrarian communities often prove to be - afraid of change and unaware of alternatives. I really feel in NK we need to wait for change, or even blackmail or bribe the power structure in a way to bring it around. Simply knocking out the top echelon and leaving the other problems would be unconscionable: taking them on is a responsibility for which we may not be fit.
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
Everyone knew these were nothing more than scaled up Scuds, it's been reported on for months.
The big deal is that what everyone suspected (not knew) has now been confirmed by physical evidence.
Actually there are some people claiming the sinking of that South Korean vessel was a false flag operation.
But I'm debating whether we want to let them develop first strike capability.
Yeah, I was just thinking, "Wouldn't another war be nice?" And this whole pre-emptive strike thing has been working out so well!
You are afraid that letting them develop longer will lead to them being more dangerous. Isn't it possible that letting them develop might lead to them being less dangerous? Maybe there will be a popular uprising? Maybe with increased wealth and education will come preasure from the populace to increase freedoms? Why should popular opinion in the US be the decider and enforcer of what North Korea does? Why not let North Korea's neighbors (South Korea, China, Japan, Russia along with many, many others that are much closer) take the lead? Have we learned nothing from the mistakes in Iraq? Why are you so eager for our country to squander what wealth we have by blowing up people half a world away?
As a programmer just the inefficiencies of war (spending billions of dollars buildings things to blow up people and infrastructure) makes me weap let alone the cost in human life. I also strong suspect that all of these wars are going to make things much more dangerous for America down the road.
"These findings confirm that the stage is still Scud-level technology."
Says who, a so-called "scientist" from the nation that just put the space shuttle into the scrapyard (where it belongs) - and has NOTHING to even do the same job as that old piece of junk?
As compared to what, the anti-gravity drive used by the latest US spaceships? Last time I checked EVERYONE still uses good old rockets. Oh sure - they now (occasionally) have a camera looking backwards for nice launch videos. And possibly they use fuel Y instead of fuel X - excuse me guys, you celebrate marginal, tiny advances as being far ahead of the stone-age North Koreans?
As far as getting into space, we ALL are at "stone-age" (1960s) level (i.e. rockets, huge flames, HUGE noise, lots of explosives). But today, progress is measured in micrometers, not in miles, so sure, let's celebrate how much more advanced we (the West) is compared to the most backward nation on earth.
They "deserve the credit"? they've got half their country starving to death behind barbed wire, the other half starving in their crumbling capitol, they're spending all their money on BALLISTIC missle technology, and they... "deserve the credit". Well step forward and claim that prize, Best Korea.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
NK's deterrent is still only conventional, their nuclear capability is a joke.
In short NK have made a career of being a nuisance and all their antics are little more than creating bargaining chips. NK only exists because China wants a satellite state that acts as a buffer. Let them handle the mess.
TCAP-Abort
Didn't you get the memo? A totally hostile regime armed with nukes and ICBM capabilities that we cannot attack because it holds Seoul hostage of its artillery must be mocked as often as possible in the media.
Forget Iran, forget Syria. North Korea is a Damn Serious threat that will be very difficult to solve.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
I forgot to add that if they manage to have the potential to get a nuclear war head to the US (territory) it does not freaking matter if they use a ballista, a rocket or beam it across space. Same outcome. I've no idea what all this "analysis" telling us how bad and backwards everything North Korean is (which I don't doubt at all) is supposed to tell the (western) public? It sounds sooooo stupid.
Ah, memories! RFNA and UDMH were what we used in Lance Missiles in the 70's/80's. These were aimed visually with hand cranks, a theodolite and a mirror. (a little more to the left) Interesting to see this called "advanced" in 2012.
Don't even try to compare the US to North Korea. Nothing is perfect, but NK is as close to hell as you will ever find on Earth at any point in history (maybe slightly exceeded by Khmer Rouge era Cambodia).
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Well, they are kind of correct in that the Korean War ended with an armistice and not a peace treaty. Armistice: temporary suspension of hostilities by agreement between the opponents.
Iran is putting 50km objects in orbit?
Better prep those mass driver shelters.
Our people tend to have life expectancies in the very late 70s, and have the ability to leave the country whensoever we want. Check out the situation in N Korea, you might find that its slightly different.
The Iranian and North Korean governments are a bunch of nutbags with or without the ability to rain down destruction on the rest of the planet. Not every space shot induces panic. Not every country is as stupid or as evil as the worst example you can find.
It's also important to note that the original space race was far from benign. Sputnik was a side venture of the Soviet ICBM program and the main American efforts were also military in nature.
The people that are the most hysterical probably have a properly grounded historical perspective.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Only if you tend to be upper middle class to wealthy. Lifespans are actually shrinking for the poor.
Of course their first steps are primitive, and their rockets too. But rocket
engine is only a part of a space launch. Lots and lots of items of the space
launch checklist are done for NK, and they will make non-perfect items
better in future. It is great for them and great for lots of other countries
as they have shown to everybody what is attainable with resolve and normal
amounts of money. All of that under embargo of any kind imagineable.
Prices of space launch are most probably inflated beyond recognition because
of small to nonexistent competition. With more space launch capable nations
(even NK is a plus), and companies later on, more nations and companies will
be able to exploit space and we will all profit from that. From cheaper
communications to more data about our planet (more invasions of privacy as
side effect, too), real development of space technologies is probably coming
- at last. $200,000 per ticket space tourism is not a development, it is
- just one more entertainment venue for super rich.
http://opencm3.net, http://www.nongnu.org/gm2/
Isn't it possible that letting them develop might lead to them being less dangerous?
Right now, N Korea has no real potential to hurt the US. At best they can hit our remote bases in Korea and Japan.
And you're asking if giving them the capability to launch nukes into the US will make them less dangerous? That would take them from not being able to hurt America, to being able to hurt America. How exactly does that make them less dangerous?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
You mean a group of scientists and engineers whose funding has been diverted from resources that could have been used to feed people has succeeded in its ambitions. How many tons of food aid did they have to sell on the black market to achieve this? It's not a victory for North Korea, its a victory for the rulers. On slashdot, we're critical of even democratic countries in their degree of representation, and of the disparities between the will of the people and the will of the government, yet I often see this willingness to present totalitarian rulers, their people, and the concept of nationhood as a singular indivisible entity (especially on the concept of "sovereignty", but that's for another thread...).
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
That said I'd much rather they'd put that much effort in actually feeding their own population.
They can't. They have no sources of energy required for food production on the kind of land they have, and thanks to US-instigated economic blockade, have no way to obtain them.
They are not stupid or crazy, just very poor, and the origin of their poverty is the same as in your nearest ghetto.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
The stakes here are much higher. If Los Angeles and Seattle were to get nuked, it would make *all* the Middle East wars look like a pillow fight.
First
For once, a First Poster is actually right, North Korea beat South Korea into space. Making them the first!
So if I'll find hydrazine on anything launched by US, I should claim that they are probably using WWII-time German designs, and go on and on how stupid are Americans for using engines that require single-component, self-igniting fuel?
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Comparing the US to N. Korea is stupid. You deserve ridicule.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
BS.
They're poor because their government insists on keeping them that way. If we undid the economic blockade, the "party members" would be rich, and everyone else would still be poor.
NK could do any number of things to end the economic blockade, because no one cares about ruling that country, they've only ever worried about a possibly batshit crazy leader with nuclear weapons. The cold war is long over and communism is dead.
Yeah, the problem is there isn't increased wealth and education in North Korea. There is increased hunger and starvation while the ruling few place the national resources into a game of nuclear blackmail.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
BS.
They're poor because their government insists on keeping them that way. If we undid the economic blockade, the "party members" would be rich, and everyone else would still be poor.
NK could do any number of things to end the economic blockade, because no one cares about ruling that country, they've only ever worried about a possibly batshit crazy leader with nuclear weapons. The cold war is long over and communism is dead.
Do you have anything at all, other than words ot US propaganda workers, as the base for all those bold statements? Have you even seen any kind of Communist in your whole life, leave alone, a North Korean official? Studied economy of the region collecting information from actual sources? Did any comparisons between North Korean and Chinese leaders' actions over recent half a century of their history? And if not, please shut up and never talk about those things again.
Wow. Your deeply reasoned post sighting even a shred of real-world evidence has swayed me!
Do you similarly have any facts to back up your grandiose claims that this is "all the US's fault"? No? Then shut up and never talk about the issue again.
North Korea's problems are North Korea's to solve. Their people have invented a de facto capitalist society, and the only one suppressing it is their own government. The only reason they have sanctions is because their own government repeatedly acts to threaten surrounding nations, and there's no reason to think that any kind of free trade wouldn't have the immediate consequence of the attempted importation of weapons and weapons technology for said government, and of course the attendant wealth-boosting of the few upper-members of the government.
Yes it might all work out in the long run, but it's not going to matter if Seoul has to deal with an actual practical North Korean nuclear weapon and not a hypothetical one (seeing as how it's unclear whether the one they built actually works at all). North Korea could easily obtain huge amounts of food and farming aid for it's citizens, since most of the world wants to give that to them - but of course, guess why they never take it.
Red Fuming Nitric Acid, not Red Nitric Fuming Acid. FWIW, the Vanguard first stage used IRFNA - Inhibited Red Fuming Nitric Acid as an oxidizer.
A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
Maybe they could close the MADD gap by launching satellites whose sole purpose are to (when they feel truly threatened) self-destruct in the most sensitive / busy orbits, causing a cascading demolition derby of satellite shrapnel.
Not exactly nuclear winter, but having to cleanup the entire upper atmosphere before re-establishing satellite communication would put a hell of a crimp in the Western world for at least a decade.
And the V2 is simply Goddard's designs scaled up. :)
And as to being embargoed, they are not. USSR used to trade heavily with them, and Russia likely still does.
In addition, it has been shown that China is very active in trading with NK. Basically, NK has a similar relationship to China that USA, UK, and Canada have (though we are more equals, while China tells NK and others what to do).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Buddy, what is your deal? I have been reading your posts here and you seem to be on a singlehanded mission to convince the world that North Korea launching a busted-up old rocket is somehow the United States' fault. Your Occam's razor is dull and you may want to buy some more at the grocery store.
It's OK if you want to hate Americans. Lots of people all around the world do, and there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike many of the activities of the US government.
But please don't do it at the expense of trying to make North Korea look like saints or hapless victims of evil sanctions. The North Korean leadership is a nest of batshit crazy Stalinists, and evil to its people in a way that has not been seen on this planet since the Khmer Rouge. I know you will just claim that the National Geographic Society is just another mouthpiece of the CIA or whatever, but watch this and tell me honestly that the North Korean government gives a dead rat's ass about its citizens.
Hating Americans - well, I think that's overgeneralizing and a bit silly to say "all Americans are this or that," but hey, go ahead and do it if it floats your boat. Propping up the North Koreans - that's an insult to all the innocent people who suffer under that regime every day.
"95% of all Slashdot
Holy shit, you win the biggest moron I've seen on the internet all month award.
Actually, I'd be with the Iranians and praying to Allah if they managed that. There's not many shelters that would save you from what is happening if a 50km object impacted anywhere on the planet.
The problem is that "primitive design" is often read as "poor design" by non-technical people. Primitive designs may be pretty good in themselves, and work quite well, but have become obsoleted by more advanced designs
Indeed. The current workhorse of the manned spacecraft industry is the Soyuz-class capsule. First launched in 1966. It's had significant upgrades since then but the Soyuz-A and the Soyuz TMA-07MM (launched December 17, 2012) look very similar.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
To be honest, if the resources of the US were treated in the same way that NK treats it's own people, we'd probably be setting up a colony on Mars right now.
Most of the reason we are not on Mars right now is that people compare the costs of doing that with maintaining standard of living. In NK, there is no health care debate. Everyone there gets free health care, to a maximum of a band aid and a Kim Jong Un lollipop when they have cancer. In essence, you'd almost be better off living on the streets in the US than to be an NK peasant most days.
However, yes, their prestige project of rocket science is moving along, and it will eventually progress. That's what happens when a country focuses itself, even imperfectly, on a narrow set of goals, and treats everything else at a bare minimum level. That focus is part arrogance of their elite class, and partly a need for Kim Jong Un to shore up his power base by keeping his military happy with him.
You could do the same thing in the US too. I assure you, if you did only the minimum you needed to hold down your job, and instead lived in cheap rat infested tenements and ate ramen noodles for your one daily meal, despite the fact that you make more than enough to live in a nice home, you could have a decent nest egg built up. People in the US used to go live in houses they build out of sod so that they could get their hands on some land and make something of themselves. That doesn't mean that I am suggesting that we all sell our houses and go live in shacks to afford good health care, for instance, but a lot of people don't realize that we do actually have a lot of resources at our disposal even if they are limited. It is what we do with those limited resources which makes the difference.
North Korea has chosen its space program over its people, and the space program is progressing because of it.
I can assure you, Labour government was and LibCon goverment is doing everything what US tells them...
NK is no direct threat to the USA and anyone asserting otherwise is a fearmonger. The worse thing they can do is invade the South, which from a purely selfish US-centric point of view would only be a major inconvenience. Only in the hypothetical case that South Korea and its allies cannot repel the attack, it would become a major geopolitical setback.
As a side note, I'd really like to see hard evidence about that 55-gallon drum claim; I don't see the driving force for optimizing the guidance system to that level of precision. I'm not saying it's wrong (I heard it before), just that I'd like to see the evidence.
You fool! Never say that!
All we need to know about NK is one simple fact.
Before the division of the country, it was the more prospering part, by a significant amount. After the division, that prosperity gap only lasted for a decade or so - that despite the fact that in that period of time, NK was supplied by Soviets and Chinese, so there was no blockade. Several decades later, it came to such dire straits, economically, that its residents were eating grass.
It doesn't have anything to do with NK being Communist (they aren't, by the way - they dropped all references to communism and Marxism-Leninism from their constitution 20 years ago; it's officially a cult of personality state now). It has everything to do with the fact that it's, essentially, a feudal totalitarian state which is owned by a single family, which owns luxury cars by dozens and sends its kids to study in European universities (blockade, eh?).
the majority of the worlds population would consider the US government nutshit crazy too....
Delta-Mike November Bravo Tango
Re: I hope they build a copy of the Buran ;>)
.
I'd buy a ticket for that ride! Much better than the roller coaster ever could be, eh? ! !
Re: "These findings confirm that the stage is still Scud-level technology."
I wouldn't be so sure about that. The artifact in figure 7 in the accompanying article looks an awful lot like a Stargate.
The Iranian and North Korean governments are a bunch of nutbags with or without the ability to rain down destruction on the rest of the planet. Not every space shot induces panic. Not every country is as stupid or as evil as the worst example you can find.
It's also important to note that the original space race was far from benign. Sputnik was a side venture of the Soviet ICBM program and the main American efforts were also military in nature.
The people that are the most hysterical probably have a properly grounded historical perspective.
===
Whats the big deal. If you were president for life, had access to all the best of the best, from toys to women to power, why would you open your doors to helping your population? Most leaders are not charitable, they are egoists. They believe that Nice guys finish last.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
There was an interesting story on NPR yesterday about the DPRK. It's a very paternalistic/chauvinistic society much like South Korea used to be. At some point in the past, leadership decided state jobs were too important to be occupied by women. So women were largely moved out of the labor force since there was no private enterprise. Well the collapse of the USSR (and China's reduced interest) decimated the state economy. As rations dwindled, the women had to get rolling for families to survive. Informal (unsanctioned) private markets were initially limited to elderly women but as the economic conditions worsened, the DPRK increasingly looked the other way as women of all ages scrambled to keep the family fed. In the meantime, the menfolk were busy going to work at jobs that didn't pay much. When I say didn't pay much, we're talking pennies a day. Every male is either in the military (~10 years) or working for the state. But since state jobs pay so little, women have become the dominant family breadwinners. The situation is so dire for men in that arse backwards country that some PAY not to go to their state job. You see you have to go to work at your state job even if there's nothing to do. You have to go to work at your state job even if you don't get paid. If you don't show for work, they coming looking for you. The only 'out' is an informal system where men pay NOT to go to work. Obviously, that money is coming either from remittances or the money the wife makes. The take home is that the DPRK is running a society-wide, generations-long sociocultural experiment that has far more significance than their rocket launch.