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Turkey's Science Research Council Stops Publication of Evolution Books

Posted by Soulskill on from the jesus-rode-tyrannosaurs dept.

An anonymous reader writes "The Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÜBITAK) has put a stop to the publication and sale of all books in its archives that support the theory of evolution, daily Radikal has reported. The books have long been listed as “out of stock” on TÜBTAK's website, but their further publication is now slated to be stopped permanently. Titles by Richard Dawkins, Alan Moorehead, Stephen Jay Gould, Richard Levontin and James Watson are all included in the list of books that will no longer be available to Turkish readers. In early 2009, a huge uproar occurred when the cover story of a publication by TÜBITAK was pulled, reportedly because it focused on Darwin’s theory of evolution."

91 of 444 comments (clear)

  1. Note to myself: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't hire people from Turkey, Kansas,...

    1. Re:Note to myself: by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 5, Funny

      Really. Have you ever been to that town?

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    2. Re:Note to myself: by Zephyn · · Score: 2

      Don't hire people from Turkey, Kansas,...

      Never heard of that place. How far is it from Topeka?

  2. This is a country that wants in the EU by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, feel free to reapply in a few centuries.

    Actually, don't.

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Islam has been growing there, this is not unusual thing for Islamic countries.

    2. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by velvet_stallion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Turkey doesn't seem to mind following behind the world by a couple of centuries. The Ottoman Empire refused to allow the printing press until 1729, but closed it, then reopened it again later in 1784. Same group objected to it as to evolution, the all-knowing theocratic wise men. Religion = Suppression of Thought. Science = Freedom of Thought.

    3. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's because they never managed to separate religion from politics.

      I'm not sayin religion is bad, but when you lead the country, you can't have two agendas. In this case, it's pretty obvious which won.

    4. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm not sayin religion is bad

      Why not?

    5. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      they never managed to separate religion from politics

      Did they even try?

      I'm not sayin religion is bad

      Then I will. Religion exists because lights in the sky go boom and it doesn't rain when you want it to and things happen you can't understand.

      Guess what, today we can understand those things and so religion is quite literally at odds with modern life. Sure we dress it up and ignore the ugly parts 'we' don't like but then somebody else decides, hey smiting neighbors is a good thing and justifies it with the Bible or whatever your religious source is.

      If it ain't based on cold hard facts it has no business governing anyone other than the individual who believes it.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    6. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm from Texas. It's OK with me. Isn't there some paperwork we have to sign?

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    7. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by rainmouse · · Score: 5, Funny

      Islam has been growing there, this is not unusual thing for Islamic countries.

      Science flies you to the moon.

      Religion flies you into buildings.

    8. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by gary_7vn · · Score: 5, Informative

      Did they even try? Well, yeah. "In the years following 1926, Mustafa Kemal introduced a radical departure from previous reformations established by the Ottoman Empire.[73] For the first time in history, Islamic law was separated from secular law, and restricted to matters of religion.[73] Mustafa Kemal said “ We must liberate our concepts of justice, our laws and our legal institutions from the bonds which, even though they are incompatible with the needs of our century, still hold a tight grip on us.[74] ” On 1 March 1926, the Turkish penal code was passed. It was modelled after the Italian Penal Code. On 4 October 1926, Islamic courts were closed. Establishing the civic law needed time, so Mustafa Kemal delayed the inclusion of the principle of laïcité until 5 February 1937. Ottoman practice discouraged social interaction between men and women in keeping with Islamic practice of sex segregation. Mustafa Kemal began developing social reforms very early, as was evident in his personal journal. He and his staff discussed issues like abolishing the veiling of women and the integration of women into the outside world. The clue on how he was planning to tackle the issue was stated in his journal on November 1915; “ The social change can come by (1) educating capable mothers who are knowledgeable about life; (2) giving freedom to women; (3) a man can change his morals, thoughts, and feelings by leading a common life with a woman; as there is an inborn tendency towards the attraction of mutual affection.[75] ” Mustafa Kemal needed a new civil code to establish his second major step of giving freedom to women. The first part was the education of girls and was established with the unification of education. On 4 October 1926, the new Turkish civil code passed. It was modelled after the Swiss Civil Code." Wiki

    9. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Isaac Asimov

    10. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Science flies you to the moon."

      I thought you needed Nazis for that.

    11. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Pseudonym · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Science has provided us everything that religion has historically promised, including the chance of a firey holocaust which destroys humanity Go science!.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    12. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "this is not unusual thing for Islamic countries."

            Not just Islamic countries. We still have "under god" in the pledge of allegiance. A phrase added during socialization in an attempt to program our children in the 1950's and has resulted with court battles by children to get rid of it. And how secular are we when someone sticking a ten commandments mural in a state building causes a giant court and public fight when it's obvious the damn thing shouldn't be there in the first place. Another phrase from the 1950's "Be the best you can be" or something like that pushed by a general when a more apt phrase might be "Be what you want to be". I won't get into the abortion, teaching creationism, and religious manipulation of politics. The US may have a secular government but it has a religious populace that just won't keep religion out of it. To be honest we're not that far from Turkey.

    13. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Informative

      Did they even try?

      Yes. Very hard indeed for a nation so closely tied with religion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atat%C3%BCrk's_Reforms

    14. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Guess what, today we can understand those things and so religion is quite literally at odds with modern life.

      Some religions are, some aren't. Most of the incompatibility comes from dogma, which varies over time and among sects. It may surprise you to know that several major religious sects support teaching evolution and actively oppose teaching creation.

      Sure we dress it up and ignore the ugly parts 'we' don't like but then somebody else decides, hey smiting neighbors is a good thing and justifies it with the Bible or whatever your religious source is.

      As if there were never another pretext for war besides the Bible, and all atheists were pacifists. People who want to smite their neighbors will make up a reason to do it, religion or no.

      If it ain't based on cold hard facts it has no business governing anyone other than the individual who believes it.

      I wholeheartedly agree that other people's religion should not govern me, and by the Golden Rule that also means my religion should not govern anyone else. However, I would point out that the separation of church and state, which you elegantly and passionately summarize here, is itself not based on "cold hard facts." It's ideology. Not all ideology is bad.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    15. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by GenieGenieGenie · · Score: 2

      Actually, the theory of evolution doesn't fly you anywhere. In fact, I'm willing to place hard money on a substantial amount of the Apollo project not believing in evolution.

    16. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by cheater512 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not unusual in religious countries. How long has the US tried to do the same?

    17. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Then I grab my religious headgear, I mean colander, and have dinner ;-)

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    18. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by sjames · · Score: 2

      How might you feel about a religion that held discovery of God's creation through science to be it's highest sacrament?

    19. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Come back when such a religion is wide-spread and pursuing that goal; until then, your argument is hypothetical only and serves only to dilute the issue.

      Historically, most religions have embraced, at a fundamental level, certainty in the absence of evidence and not uncertainty in the presence of it.

    20. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 5, Funny

      Science has provided us everything that religion has historically promised,

      Are my 72 virgins still growing in the lab or something?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    21. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by ConfusedVorlon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would think it was pointless.

      Gilding the lilly. Why tarnish science with make believe?

      --
      VLC Remote for iPhone and Android
    22. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, I'd say the moon landings.

      I don't think you quite realize just how many innovations and improvements to the technological age occured as a direct result of the space race.

      Hint: More was created there than a locked cockpit door and the TSA scanner.

    23. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From the standpoint of social structure, there is a scientific basis for religion. Children who are told some being is watching are more likely to leave a plate of cookies alone when asked even if they don't believe that the being will do anything but watch.

      In general, people are more likely to behave in an ethical manner when they believe someone will see what they do, even if they don't expect any consequences for being seen.

      I would prefer that we let a benevolent sky being do the watching rather than the guys back at the precinct.

      That isn't to say that there isn't a long history of organized religion abusing the power of belief for their own ends, of course. That is what I personally object to. Perhaps if the abusers had actually believed someone was watching...

    24. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by turbidostato · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Actually, the theory of evolution doesn't fly you anywhere."

      I'm an Archaeopteryx, you insensitive clod

    25. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You mean the countries that helped Charles Darwin investigate the theory of evolution, and even buried him on a specially-honourable spot inside a world-famous church, next to 2 other very well known scientists who both also made parts of the world clear ?

      It wouldn't be fair to say Christianity as a whole is against the theory of evolution, given the support that theory has received from the church, and the support research into it continues to receive from the church today. The vatican probably educates more people into the theory of evolution than any other organisation even today, and they started doing that earlier than most government schools too.

      As to what some congregations think, well, yes.

      Christianity, and especially the vatican, are extremely pro-science compared to other religions.

    26. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think GP's point was that Turkey did have a separation between religion and state, and it actually did wonders - it transformed the country from a rump of the "sick man of Europe" into a rapidly developing country with steadily growing standard of living.

      Unfortunately, it wasn't a grassroots movement, but came from above. So once the leader who pushed it through died, his followers' resolve grew steadily weaker with each passing generation - and now they have surrendered the country to Islamists.

    27. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by martin-boundary · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Christianity, and especially the vatican, are extremely pro-science compared to other religions.

      Wrong. Like any religion, they lay claim to the "higher" truth. What you are talking about is tolerance of a "lower" scientific truth as long as it doesn't usurp the more important higher truth being claimed by the religion. And even that was paid in blood.

      To put it bluntly, scientific knowledge is incompatible with gods. We know it, they know it. To preserve face and influence, christian religions will acknowledge science's truth while falsely claiming that there is another truth out there (unproven and full of logically inconsistent claims) which is nevertheless claimed to be coexistent and ultimately more important. Basically, religion is like the kid who says to your face he'll clean up his room but never actually does it.

    28. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by sjames · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This one doesn't quite hold science to be a sacrement, but DOES hold that :

      If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science, they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible, and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation.

    29. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      It seems more like Turkish government types are simply fudging. Those more advanced Turks who can read English have access to the full range scientific content. Those less literate types that rely on government subsidised books in Turkish can be temporarily placated.

      After all the same council, TUBITAK is responsible for Pardus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardus_(operating_system). It seems with evolution where the benefit understanding for the less educated is somewhat arbitrary, simply putting it off for some number of years while they socially catch up is simply a matter of expedience.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    30. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by riverat1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you are right. I've been told several times over the years by religious people that I can't be a moral person because I don't believe in God. My response is that if it requires fear of God to make you act morally then you really aren't very moral but just reacting to the threat of punishment. If you do the right thing even though no one's looking (including God) then you can really call yourself a moral person.

    31. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      ... please don't blame good religions for the crimes of muslims/islam.

      First you prove that "good religion" isn't an oxymoron, then we'll talk.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    32. Re:This is a country that wants in the EU by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      Children who are told some being is watching are more likely to leave a plate of cookies alone when asked even if they don't believe that the being will do anything but watch.

      But in practice after getting away with it a few times, the child learns that there is no punishment, and apply this lesson to the rest of their life.

      Maybe they feel that God wants them to lie for money because God wants them to be personally wealthy because they pray more or some other BS rationalization. It's easy to rationalize when you cannot verify the rules.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
  3. Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standout by kannibal_klown · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wow, I thought the US was the only stand-out / weird-country with anti-evolution nuts in power.

    I guess there are other countries in this unfortunate "club"

    If you don't want to believe in it (or that it's even possible) then fine... believe in whatever you want.

    But stop trying to prevent other people from learning it. Please. And please stop trying to pass religion off as science... such as those museums that say Adam rode on a dinosaur, and that dinosaurs were vegens until the apple incident.

  4. Ugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm an American citizen of Turkish ancestry, and the fact that the US and Turkey come in at 49 and 50 of a list of 50 western nations in terms of percentage of population that believe in evolution upsets me to no end. When Erdogan and his cronies took over the first thing they did was jail all the generals. Why? Because the military always would step in and keep the country from getting too Islamic. Well the US decided to back Erdogan when he did this and now look whats happening, one more slippery step towards Turkey becoming a theocracy.

    1. Re:Ugh by swb · · Score: 2

      Considering the power the military has traditionally had, what kept them from doing this early or even late in the Erdogan era?

      I'm familiar (at least from what I read in the NY Times...) with the jailing of the military officers (most ex-military from what I read) on somewhat shaky grounds, but I would think that if the active duty military wanted to depose him, they would easily as the vast majority of the officer corps and probably most senior enlisted had likely already been vetted for their secularism a long time ago.

      You don't build that kind of power base over the past 75 years just to have a bunch of politicians dismantle it in 5 years.

      What I don't know is whether the past military putsches had been truly directed by the active duty military in the actual cause of secularism or if that was mostly window dressing and they had actually been directed by a clique of ex-military with lucrative state contracts and influence who were worried about losing said influence and financial interests, and the active duty forces went along with it more than leading it.

  5. Wow by grasshoppa · · Score: 5, Funny

    What a backwards country, to be so afraid of science as to effectively censor it.

    Glad I live in 'merica. FUCK YA!

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    1. Re:Wow by silviuc · · Score: 2

      Actually the US gvt. actively supports what the current prime-minister of Turkey does. They also actively supported the egyptian dictator until millions of people raised up and took back their country from him, Your gvt. seems to make a lot of bad calls supporting all kinds of bad people. Bin Laden was one of them for f's sake. Yeah, you have a lot to be proud of man.

    2. Re:Wow by silviuc · · Score: 2

      And it's up to them to decide their own fates.

  6. I don't think they want in anymore by swb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think they're less enthusiastic about joining than they used to be.

    Turkey's been doing relatively well economically, especially relative to the general economic drain-circling that the EU has been experiencing for the last couple of years and I don't see them as eager to join in the mess that the Euro Zone has become.

    What they seem more interested in is regaining their Ottoman Empire regional standing. I keep waiting for them to say "enough" and intervene in Syria, allowing them to recreate some of the Ottoman empire. Lebanon would fall into that orbit very quickly in the absence of Syrian influence.

    1. Re:I don't think they want in anymore by danlip · · Score: 5, Informative

      EU != Eurozone. There are 27 countries in the EU, and only 17 in the Eurozone. The mess you are describing is specific to the Eurozone (and the fact that countries in it can't print their own money).

    2. Re:I don't think they want in anymore by alexander_686 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It does run both ways.

      For years the EU has been putting up barriers and slowing down the processes that has stalled the talked for the better part of a decade. This ranges from petty (Greece & Cyprus) to cheap political grandstanding (Islamophobia, cheap labor). Would you want to join a club where the petty internal politics didn’t want you? And this was before the financial crisis.

      Personally, I think if Turkey had been allowed to join this would have cemented Turkey into a secular block allowing them to be a bridge between Europe and the Middle East.

    3. Re:I don't think they want in anymore by couchslug · · Score: 2

      "I think they're less enthusiastic about joining than they used to be."

      Good. Unless Europeans hate their own culture they have no reason to defile it by admitting Superstitionist countries. It's taken long enough to weaken Superstition in Europe itself.

      Anyone who admires Islam should be willing to move to the most Islamic countries. I gently suggest the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. THAT is the sort of society religion builds. Religionists should go wallow in it.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  7. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wow, I thought the US was the only stand-out / weird-country with anti-evolution nuts in power.

    The US is just the squeakiest wheel, because we have an open press and debate our problems for the whole world to see. I can easily believe other countries have plenty of dirty laundry and just keep it to themselves.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
  8. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by sribe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wow, I thought the US was the only stand-out / weird-country with anti-evolution nuts in power.

    ARE YOU KIDDING? Please tell us you were kidding, that you're not *that* provincial, that you believe Western rationalism really is the norm throughout the entire world, including Muslim countries and Africa?

  9. You can lead a horticulture by kawabago · · Score: 3, Funny

    but you can't make her think. Dorothy Parker

  10. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by medv4380 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Incorrect. Only countries where a religious group believes that evolution is in opposition to their religion does that happen. In India 85% believe that Evolution is compatible with their religious beliefs, and I wouldn't consider Hindus to be any less crazy than any other religion out there.

  11. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by erroneus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "I don't want to live on this planet any more."

    I just don't get it. How are we not animals? How do we not recognize the extreme similarities between us and our animal cousins? The theory of evolution isn't "a fact" but it is a general truth which is evolving and growing as our understanding grows. And frankly, some things are just obvious... painfully obvious. Ever see those growing fetus diagrams where you can't tell if it's human or something else because we ALL start off looking the same?

    Sorry, but just no.

    And when people work so hard to deny, hide and destroy information which is contrary to their beliefs surely don't understand the nature of learning, understanding or of thought. I guarantee you that even if by some bizarre reality, all information about our animal nature and the notion of evolution vanished from the earth in a flash, people would STILL arrive at this obvious conclusion just exactly as people all over the world at different times came to realize that "air" has mass.

  12. Re:goodbye future by similar_name · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The really sad part is that they will blame it on secularism. There will be calls for more religion.

  13. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by DdJ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are you kidding? You just presented direct evidence that they're less crazy than other religions.

  14. Not belief, science is testable hypothesis by RichMan · · Score: 4, Informative

    Belief has nothing to do with science. All science is testable, or it is not science.

    a) genetic inheritance is observable in a lab if you have a couple of weeks and handful of flies
    b) genetic inheritance and mortality leads to evolution
    c) we have fossil records to support (b) occured in the past

    All testable against the null hypothesis. So it is clear science.

    1. Re:Not belief, science is testable hypothesis by GenieGenieGenie · · Score: 2

      You missed out d) inheritable variations in the population

  15. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by similar_name · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No one is trying to teach evolution in church. Plenty try to teach religion in science class. How do so many people not understand the difference?

  16. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just because what you believe is true, doesn't make you not crazy.

  17. Ebooks by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I suspect that Richard Dawkins & co. may be more than willing to distribute Turkish translations of their books on their own initiative. ;-) Perhaps even for free, it's not such a big market, and Haharun Hahayaya needs some counterweight anyway.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  18. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 5, Informative

    Please tell us you were kidding, that you're not *that* provincial, that you believe Western rationalism really is the norm throughout the entire world, including Muslim countries and Africa?

    Over the years I've noticed this is a pretty common theme on Slashdot - You could post a story about some backwater, torture-filled nation lead by some despotic religious zealot and 26 replies will immediately say "Yeah, but the USA is TEN TIMES WORSE!"

  19. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by kannibal_klown · · Score: 2

    "I don't want to live on this planet any more."

    That opening quote is from one of my favorite Futurama episodes. And thus well chosen.

    I believe that Evolution is right, or at least as right as we can ever be.

    But if someone is strong in their beliefs of... well.. however the earth and man came about. I'm not going to trounce on their rights to believe it.

    But it's sad when someone tries to stifle science, in any form, because it goes against something they believe.

  20. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

    Bad tempered crazy Sky God is going to zap you with a thunderbolt for saying that.

    Or not....

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  21. Why did Constantinople get the works? by zawarski · · Score: 2, Funny

    Thats nobodies business but the Turkey's Science Research Council .

  22. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by medv4380 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the whole Untouchable and Cast System keeps them firmly in the "They're Just As Crazy as Everyone Else" territory. Regardless of their position on Evolution.

  23. They say you can't argue with stupid. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 3, Funny

    I fear there will be fewer and fewer people to argue with and it won't be a good thing.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  24. and just like that... by rastoboy29 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÃoeBITAK) lost all international credibility with other technical and scientific organizations.

    --
    expandfairuse.org
  25. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by Conchobair · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not the mention the fact that they teach evolution in Catholic schools.

  26. Why ban Stephen Jay Gould, by Signum+Ignitum · · Score: 2

    who is famous for his defense that religion is not incompatible with science? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria

  27. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by jdbuz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Turkey is the perfect reflection of the US, only switch Muslim for Christian.

    As a green-eyed American Caucasian, when I started my 6 month consulting gig in Istanbul in 2007-2008 I was kinda scared at first. I saw all these minarets poking up from mosques everywhere, heard the call to prayer a few times each day, and folks back home were pushing a law that would officially say Turkey committed genocide. But then I started working with my technical counter parts and guess what? There was the quiet guy, there was the hilarious guy (we're still friends), there was the unbelievably smart guy (still the best Oracle consultant I've ever worked with), there was the hot girl, there was the guy who talked my ear off about how backwards he thought Muslims were, and there was the kindhearted Muslim guy who made sure I never ate lunch alone. Every archetype that I knew from the US was represented. I found them brilliant and extremely motivated. And I even saw a lot of women in high level jobs wearing fashionable clothes.

    Then I got to know the city, saw some of the music scene, a little of the club scene, and soaked up some of the history. They have their own George Washington named Mustafa Kemal Atatürk who in 1923 established the Republic of Turkey, switched them from Arabic script to Western European (making my job of typing on their keyboards much easier!), and separated Mosque from State.

    But exactly like in the US the religious groups find ways to work their agenda into the secular government. For example, you can't buy pork. Why? Because from political pressure it was found "unhealthy" and one by one the farms were shutdown until there were none. There's lots of these examples, including the article to which we're responding. Once my eyes got adjusted I almost felt as if I were in the US, even the mosques I realized were no more numerous than our churches.

    Their economy is far stronger than Romania, Greece, Croatia, Hungary, and Portugal, all members of the European Union, and the EU would do well to admit them. Turkey is the litmus test for Muslims and Christians. They are us and we are them. If we can make it work there I'm afraid we won't make it together anywhere.

  28. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  29. Have you paid ANY attention to Turkish politics? by billstewart · · Score: 5, Informative

    Turkey's government was radically secular for close to a century, since Kemal Ataturk's nationalists kicked out the Allies, Sultanate, and Caliphate after the WW I fall of the Ottoman Empire. They were fairly aggressive about it - requiring western-style clothing, banning fezzes, and suppressing non-Turkish cultures (such as the Kurds), enforcing use of a Latin-based alphabet instead of Arabic alphabet (and too bad for you if your name used not-officially-Turkish letters.) They did strongly push education of women, banned headscarves even for women who wanted to wear them, and let women vote (at least in the years they were paying attention to votes.) They've even had women as Prime Minister. Islam was still permitted as a religion, and was still the most common religion, but the government was not Islamic.

    They stayed secular until a few years ago when more Islamists got elected to Parliament, but have loosened up since then.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  30. ‘evolution censor' was denied the next day. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This news is from Jan 14. Turkish state science council denied this rumor the next day (Jan 15) and provided some evidence that it's not true. The newspaper published it and did not follow the story anymore.

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-state-science-council-denies-evolution-censor.aspx?pageID=238&nID=39102&NewsCatID=374

    At least, this fact should be in the summary as well.

  31. Is good news! by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 2

    For Greeks

    --

    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    1. Re:Is good news! by kyriosdelis · · Score: 2

      For Greeks

      Uhhh, not really (I'm Greek). The last thing we want is a neighboring country that has reverted back to such a primal and anti-intellectual state, that it is fertile ground for nationalistic and other bat-shit crazy ideologies. Oh, look, I accidentally just described Greece. We are being pretty much brainwashed since childhood to hate the Turkish and hope to one day "take back what is ours". I know they are being taught similar fairy tales, and it's all hogwash. And hell yes, being a secular humanist myself, Ataturk is the politician I admire the most, even though he handed us our arses back in 1921-22.

      --
      I don't mind dating a girl that has been with everybody, as long as she had a good shower afterwards.
  32. Re:Texas by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 2

    Mexico doesn't want them.

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    Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  33. Re:goodbye future by ericloewe · · Score: 2

    That only works if you stay and impose your system. That's politically incorrect these days, so you go in, get people killed, and at the end of it all accomplish little to nothing.

  34. Re:Will this discourge US evolution denialism? by ahodgson · · Score: 2

    They'll probably want to go to war with Turkey for stealing their ideas.

  35. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by slimdave · · Score: 2

    47th most free press in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

  36. Re:If you don't believe what I believe by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

    6000 years are about 2.2 million days. For god, 1000 years are just a day, so 2.2 billion years are just 6000 years. So the earth may be 6000 years old for god, but 2.2 billion years for us. OK, science says it's about twice as old ... well, the rest is probably god's nights! :-)

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  37. Book bans should fit right in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most European countries have similar book bans.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

    The Western perspective dominating Slashdot is that Turkey is banning "truth," while Europe is banning lies, while the Turkish perspective is just the opposite.

  38. Re:‘evolution censor' was denied the next da by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The evidence provided in the denial seems to be true i.e., it seems like the original cited story was at least partially false.

    The fact that none of the other newspapers picked up this story like they did for something substantially less in 2009 and the lack of public uproar in Turkey adds to the evidence that the original piece of news was not entirely true.

    I am more fascinated by the fact that, even though the essence of the news seems plausible, no one bothered to check it or discuss whether it is true or not.

  39. Re:Scientific and Technical Research Council by celle · · Score: 2

    "Indeed. I hear that many true things come out of it."

          Except "Ministry of Truth" doesn't mean what you think it does.

    "Ministry of Truth" -- Babylon5.

        Essentially it was a political propaganda department and like all departments of it's type with a sliver of truth(maybe) miles underneath a cesspool of lies. Where it's profession is to twist the truth to unrecognizability. The primary goal to manipulate the target of their interests. People working for such ilk along with any offspring they produce should be terminated with the most extreme methods possible for they willingly participated and often kept themselves ignorant in causing pain without any feeling or admission of responsibility.

  40. Re:goodbye future by celle · · Score: 2

    "Then when the country starts breeding western-hating under-educated terrorist morons"

          Nuke'm, problem goes away.

  41. The word is mightier than the God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because God can't be defended in the face of facts and ideas, the words of science must be stopped.

  42. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Excellent post from someone who has obviously traveled further than the corner store. Re Genocide, The US committed genocide against the native Indians and my own country committed genocide against the Aborigines, "our people" look away from that history in the same way Turks look away from theirs.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  43. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Over the years I've noticed this is a pretty common theme on Slashdot - You could post a story about some backwater, torture-filled nation lead by some despotic religious zealot and 26 replies will immediately say "Yeah, but the USA is TEN TIMES WORSE!"

    Over the years I've noticed this is a pretty common theme on Slashdot - people point out problems in other countries, others draw parallels to the US and some pseudo-patriot type comes along and exaggerates those parallels in order to complain about the people pointing them out.

    The problem with your complaining is that while Americans have very little influence over other what other governments do in other countries, here at least we claim to have the democratic process in order to fix our own problems. But you can't fix what you don't know about. "My country, right or wrong. If right to be kept right, if wrong to be set right."

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    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  44. Re:Wow, I thought we (the US) was the only standou by Kjella · · Score: 5, Informative

    No, it actually is one of the worse but Turkey is an even more extreme example, here's a quote from WP:

    A study published in Science compared attitudes about evolution in the United States, 32 European countries (including Turkey) and Japan. The only country where acceptance of evolution was lower than in the United States was Turkey (25%).

    Only the Abrahamic world religions in general and Protestant Christianity in particular has a big issue with evolution, this graph shows how in the US Buddhists and Hindus are the most accepting. The national figures for India are also very strong and in line with western Europe. Sure a lot other countries have other vices, but creationism is usually not one of them.

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    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  45. Re:Will this discourge US evolution denialism? by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    tribal allegiance first

    logical coherence a distant second

    so sorry, no

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  46. subject by Legion303 · · Score: 2

    Hear that, Kansas Board of Education? Time to step up your game.

  47. One step forwards... by Brannoncyll · · Score: 2

    ...two steps back. Seems like so many people can't wait for the next fucking Dark Age.

  48. Already there by Demena · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would consider Bhuddism fairly widespread. Paraphrasing the Dali Lama, where science disproves a bhuddist belief then it is Bhuddism that must change not science.

  49. False dichotomy ... by kbahey · · Score: 2

    I really wonder how you got modded up like that.

    The military are not elected, and have destabilized the country several time by staging coupes, executing elected prime ministers and such.

    Protecting the country against something unpopular is always a pretense to dictatorship and corruption.

    The solution to elected radicals in power is preparing for an alternative via the political process, NOT by supporting miltiary dictatorship against elected officials.

    Shame on an American advocating the miltiary toppling an elected government, no matter how repulsive it is.

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