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FCC Proposal Would Cover the US With Public Wi-Fi

pigrabbitbear writes "Internet access is an essential need on par with education access, but at what point do regulators recognize that? When will government officials acknowledge that widespread, guaranteed access is essential to fostering growth in the country? Somewhat surprisingly, that time is now, as the FCC is now calling for nationwide free wi-fi networks to be opened up to the public. The FCC proposes buying back spectrum from TV stations that would allow for what the Washington Post is dubbing 'super wi-fi,' as the commission wants to cover the country with wide-ranging, highly-penetrative networks. Essentially, you can imagine the proposal as covering a majority of the country with open-access data networks, similar to cell networks now, that your car, tablet, or even phone could connect to. That means no one is ever disconnected, and some folks – especially light users and the poor – could likely ditch regular Internet and cell plans altogether."

207 of 299 comments (clear)

  1. Cue the by bobstreo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Lobby "contributions" from Sprint, AT&T Tmobile, Comcast, Time Warner... The war chests of our representatives and senators will overflow with joy
    if they defeat this.

    1. Re:Cue the by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 3, Funny
      I'm shocked, shocked.

      Did I tell you how shocked I am? Really, I'm so shocked.

    2. Re:Cue the by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Wait...wait...wait...

      The basic premise starting this article:

      ""Internet access is an essential need on par with education access..."

      Internet access is on par with educational access? Seriously?

      While I will concede it IS important, it is helpful, and makes many things convenient these days...I seriously can't put up there with education. Internet access, while really cool and fun, is still in the category of luxury item. You can get by just fine without it. You won't starve, you won't go into convulsions, you won't die without it.

      If you really need it, and can't afford the luxury of having it run into your very own home, you can always go to the public library to use it there (ok, so looking at pr0n there might be a bit more inconvenient than in the privacy of one's own home).

      I mean, widespread use and access of the internet (more specifically for most people the web portion of it) is a fairly recent thing. People still can get by just fine without it.

      I mean..what's next...claiming internet access is a basic human right?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Cue the by imikem · · Score: 1

      By "joy" you mean "dollars", which means "speech", right? And people say money can't buy happiness.

      --
      Perscriptio in manibus tabellariorum est.
    4. Re:Cue the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can get by just fine without it. You won't starve, you won't go into convulsions, you won't die without it.

      [...]
      If you really need it, and can't afford the luxury of having it run into your very own home, you can always go to the public library to use it there

      I fail to see how this differs from education.

    5. Re:Cue the by Dins · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Internet access and educational access are quickly becoming the same thing. I have a 15 year old son. Of course he's good with computers and the internet (he's my son after all) but I'm amazed at what his high school coursework requires now. It all but assumes he has constant access to the internet. Hell he even uses his iPod on the school's wifi network for classwork in class.

      Of course we have good access at home, but if a kid didn't it would be a huge handicap. Yes, they can go to school computer labs and the library, etc., but even that access is dwindling now that some schools all but assume a good computer and internet access at home. His school is a very good school, but all schools will follow suit eventually.

    6. Re:Cue the by Talderas · · Score: 5, Funny

      Me too. Someone on slashdot used 'cue' properly.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    7. Re:Cue the by Synerg1y · · Score: 5, Informative

      Tell that to all the people that are employed because they self-taught themselves something using the internet. And yes you can go to the public library, plenty of people do, but the public library isn't always open & one isn't always available depending where you live. And based on your statements, people can get by "just fine" without education, it has nothing to do whatsoever with food, air, & water, but it's definitely a nice to have in that sense, so is the internet.

    8. Re:Cue the by jimmy_dean · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree. Not only is it a luxury item that is important, but it's too important for the government to control. Can you imagine the security implications and headaches a network like this would have? There are so many technical, economic and legal unintended consequences to this, it's not even funny. If the government might do anything (and even here I'm skeptical), they should help make sure that the current private means of getting on the 'net remain competitive and sooner than later, cheap Internet in many different forms will be ubiquitous without the unintended consequences that only a government can create.

      I predict this will also be a new avenue for the US federal government to regulate the Internet into oblivion. This is a setup for a massive new power grab.

      --
      -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
    9. Re:Cue the by radiumsoup · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the Sausage Master is right. Single provider = single point of control, and that's not a good thing. Competition (and by that, I mean *real* competition, none of this "we'll create health care exchanges that cut off private companies at the knees so the only thing left is the government option" bullshit) breeds innovation and lower costs. Best thing the government could do for truly stimulating competition for low cost internet (not free internet, mind you, as that's a red herring) would be to sponsor some sort of X-Prize style competition to design and implement some regional or multi-state test platform for a currently underserved area, like the Midwest or parts of the South. Hell, the government doesn't even really need to do this - it could be sponsored by the Bill Gates foundation or something similar. I'm not an infrastructure guy, so I'm sure there are caveats that would need to be spelled out in advance, but having the FCC in charge would make something as stupid as the Janet Jackson Nipplegate thing seem like the most worthwhile undertaking ever.

    10. Re:Cue the by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I seriously can't put up there with education. Internet access, while really cool and fun, is still in the category of luxury item. You can get by just fine without it. You won't starve, you won't go into convulsions, you won't die without it.

      Same with electricity, yet that's actually quite important for society. You can't convince me that a kid who doesn't know how to use the internet is prepared to do anything more than wait tables. The internet is absolutely critical for being competitive.

    11. Re:Cue the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but you're neglecting the downright SCAREY fucking pace people have been pushing forward with the advancement of the internet. Similar to the telephone, or television though it may be, it's really quite alarming just how drastically the explosion of internet availability is altering select pockets of human civilization.

      It's something that I really, REALLY wish I could ignore, and agree with you on, but there are people in positions of substantial power, out there, right now, acting on this very mind set. And it's getting to the point where it feels a little irresponsible.

      Do you know how desperately my bank wants me to abandon the use of paper? It's touted as "green" and "environmentally friendly", and sure, I am all for that when it comes to coffee cups, but not when I could possibly be dragged into court, and be ruined financially by a lack of availability to hard copies of essential documents and records that might very-well exonerate me. But switching me over electronic PDFs by e-mail only will also save my bank a shitload of money.

      Like, what if, in the course of a data breech, some guy not only steals passwords, but replaces all electronic check images with evil photoshop versions? Whoops! I can't prove I paid my mortgage anymore, and I get evicted by the sheriff. It's like I lost all my belongings in a fire, my wife leaves me, my boss fires me, and I'm left penniless on the streets, begging for food and change.

      Yeah, okay, okay... that's extreme, but the point is, let's say my bank was a small bank and didn't comply with data security and retention policies. Shame on me for using such a shitty bank right? Shame one me for not voting with my feet. Shame on me for not printing out all those PDFs, when I had the chance and they were available. Shame on me for not photoshopping, and printing out replicas that would be indistinguishable from a forgery anyway, because I'm honest, even though a judge might not even be savvy enough to perform the due diligence to consider this as a possibility. Aw, so sorry, but now I get left out in the cold, even though 80% or 90% of everyone else never feels a thing.

      This is a weak example, but I'm sure it's just the tip of the iceberg, and there could be more terrifying realities right under our noses.

      The point being that if mail dies, if print dies, if proprietary tablet platforms become the norm, what if our lives get sucked down some bizarre digital memory hole, and we can't convince each other of real world events quite so easily anymore? What if autonomous cars from Google Maps become hyper intelligent and kill us all???

      My god! Human Sacrifice! Cats and Dogs Living Together! Mass Hysteria!

      Mayor: Enough! I get the point! And what if you're wrong?

    12. Re:Cue the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's a mute point though.

    13. Re:Cue the by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Sure, business interests opposed to change will always rally against it. And they'll always find receptive legislators. But they won't always succeed in keeping things the same, which is why I've bought a car and not a horse and buggy. This specific proposal? Maybe it's wildly optimistic, but lets not act like the telecom lobbyists are gods. It's possible.

    14. Re:Cue the by hsmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Defeat it? Hell, they are probably lobbying FOR IT. Why try to get individual customers when you have have the government pay your company to cover everyone?

      Just like Obamacare was pushed by insurance companies - the government mandating you customers? Why would they fight it?

    15. Re:Cue the by jimmy_dean · · Score: 1

      the Sausage Master is right.

      Wow, someone actually agrees with me on /. That's like a first. :)

      --
      -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
    16. Re:Cue the by jimmy_dean · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Good citations, you really convinced me that "competition" has failed. So then lets insert the government to do it, because they never fail! /sarcasm

      --
      -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
    17. Re:Cue the by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately that someone doesn't have a clue on how to use the title vs the body of his comment.

    18. Re:Cue the by mdielmann · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not only is it a luxury item that is important, but it's too important for the government to control.

      So, more important than roads, making sure drugs are safe for their intended use, and the protection of the sovereignty of your nation. Gotcha.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    19. Re:Cue the by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Internet access, while really cool and fun, is still in the category of luxury item

      Don't know what industry YOU work in, but without internet access I wouldn't be able to get a job, and I don't think I'm unique in that respect! Most employers use job search sites or their own web page to post employment opportunities, and if you have no internet then you can't get to them can you? The days of looking through the Want Ads in printed newspapers are more or less gone.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    20. Re:Cue the by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Actually, you're missing a couple of points.

      If I have internet, I can interact with several government agencies, easily. Without internet access, it costs me about four gallons of gas to drive to the agency's office, wasting three or more hours of driving time, plus whatever time I spend in the office. Telephone might replace some of those in-person interactions, but then I may have to wait a week for the paperwork to come through. With internet, the paperwork is done already, before I leave the web page.

      The same goes for my banking, and for bill paying - not to mention shopping. I've bought any number of things online, which I may or may not have found within driving distance. Specifically, no dealer carries parts for a Honda GL500. No aftermarket parts are available through any stores or dealers in the area. With internet, I can locate any and all parts for that GL500, along with some rather essential mods. (do a search for "fan grenade" for instance - the direct drive mechanical fan put on those CX and GL 500 engines are of a faulty design, easily replaceable with any of a number of electric fans, but without internet, I would never have heard of the problem)

      The second point is - our dependency on the internet will only increase in years to come. Ten years ago, I felt as you do. The internet was really cool and all, but non-essential. Today, it is becoming more and more essential. Ten years from now, it will be very much an essential part of life. Society is changing due to the internet. Some of those changes may be for the better, others may be for the worse, but society IS changing. In another decade, internet access WILL be essential. Just as essential as an education, in my opinion.

      It's rare that any government agency actually looks ahead, like the FCC is doing here. I have to give them points, as well as agreeing with them.

      Blanket the nation in internet access, and make it as close to free as possible. The telcos charge to much, and they've failed to live up to their part of the bargain. Cellular just sucks at my house, along with 30% of my fellow rural American's houses. Sometimes, I can stand in front of a window, and get an acceptable signal. Other times, I have to walk out into the yard, and search for the right spot, then hold the phone just so, to get a strong enough signal to talk to my boss.

      That is simply not right, for fifty dollars each month. That kind of service might be acceptable for five or ten dollars each month. Might be. It certainly is NOT acceptable for people who actually sign contracts for a hundred dollars and more per month!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    21. Re:Cue the by corbettw · · Score: 1

      I've been queued for years waiting for that.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    22. Re:Cue the by Bota · · Score: 1
      Point form for easy digestion (and rebuttals)
      • 1, Many employers no longer accept hardcopy applications, they instead point you at a webform.
      • 2, Many rural high school students have no access to (outdated) encyclopedias outside of school hours, yet are required to do research during homework.
      • 3, Many college professors post their lectures online with notes, and these are not available offline.
      • 4, Much of our modern social interaction is done online rather than by phone or face to face
      • 5, Self improvement is made almost trivial if you have internet access.
      • 6, More progressive countries have already declared internet access a basic human right.

      I believe this might be enough to convince you if you are willing to put some thought into it.
      If, however, you are not willing to actually think about it without yelling about lawns and the good ol' days when kids stayed off them, then there is nothing we can do to convince you.
      Lots of people get by without flush toilets and electric lights, this does not mean we are not in need of ubiquitous sewer and electric systems.

      --
      King Kong Died For Your Sins
    23. Re:Cue the by N0Man74 · · Score: 2

      While I will concede it IS important, it is helpful, and makes many things convenient these days...I seriously can't put up there with education. Internet access, while really cool and fun, is still in the category of luxury item. You can get by just fine without it. You won't starve, you won't go into convulsions, you won't die without it.

      I don't think it is that much of a stretch to compare it to the importance of public education. The Internet is the modern library. It is becoming the modern newspaper. It is becoming the modern Postal Service. It's becoming the modern radio, modern television, and even the modern teacher for some.

      The FCC has already taken the stand that all Americans should have access to wire and radio services, not completely unlike how the USPS has had the goal of providing their service for all Americans, and how we are now talking about providing wi-fi.

      Sure, the many people use it for entertainment, consuming crap, and wasting time, but how is that different than television, radio, postal service, or public education?

      Sure, I wouldn't want all wi-fi to be government run, but having an alternative to having kids needing to hang out at McDonald's in order to get internet access for them to do homework isn't a bad thing.

    24. Re:Cue the by careysub · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. Not only does the government, businesses, employers, health care providers, schools, etc. automatically assume you have Internet access - and make their plans for interacting with you accordingly, but they are already generally assuming you have high speed Internet access AND mobile phone Internet access also.

      Not having Internet access is much like not having access to a telephone 25 years ago - you basically cannot function in society effectively.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    25. Re:Cue the by Frojack123 · · Score: 1

      Agreed, an investigation into the pricing of broadband is needed. We saw recently that Timer Warner boosts speeds with no price increase when faced with competition. While everywhere else they continue to charge the same high prices.

      But you also could have mentioned that government managed public wifi will once again demonstrate the Tragedy of the Commons as it slips inevitably into a cesspool of hackers, over-saturated bandwidth, government monitoring, censorship, and the never ending cries of "won't somebody please think of the children".

      I'm not adverse to someone making a profit on providing wifi. It keeps their interest in providing a good service high. Still we manage to regulate phone companies, power companies, without government ownership and the invasive consequences* that government ownership brings.

      * This being slashdot, it seems only proper to mention that I'm not at all convinced what you characterize as "unintended consequences" are in fact unintended.

      --
      F. Robert Jack
    26. Re:Cue the by HexaByte · · Score: 1

      Same with electricity, yet that's actually quite important for society. You can't convince me that a kid who doesn't know how to use the internet is prepared to do anything more than wait tables. The internet is absolutely critical for being competitive.

      WOW! Didn't those without an electrical infrastructure invent and construct the one we have today? Didn't people who had no internet invent the computers and internet and create it's infrastructure?

      Just how do you suppose they did that while waiting tables? I learned a lot of skills before there was ever an internet, but I guess it's because I'm smarter than you. I like the internet, I really do. But saying it's as essential as education just shows you to be a product of publik eduamcatin.

      --
      HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
    27. Re:Cue the by macromorgan · · Score: 2

      WOW! Didn't those without an electrical infrastructure invent and construct the one we have today? Didn't people who had no internet invent the computers and internet and create it's infrastructure?

      Just how do you suppose they did that while waiting tables? I learned a lot of skills before there was ever an internet, but I guess it's because I'm smarter than you. I like the internet, I really do. But saying it's as essential as education just shows you to be a product of publik eduamcatin.

      People who don't have internet access will not be a part of creating what comes next, just as those who did not have electricity were not part of those who created the internet.

    28. Re:Cue the by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      I mean, widespread use and access of the internet (more specifically for most people the web portion of it) is a fairly recent thing. People still can get by just fine without it.

      You've ever seen what people are doing for education these days?

      Homework assignments posted online, online research (one assignment from the McDonalds article on WiFi? A mock Facebook page about presidents). And let's not forget everyone's favorite teaching tool - Khan Academy and the "flip learning" where you do the KA lectures at home, and go do the homework in class.

      Or the new thing - massively online open courseware, like MIT and Stanford courses.

      A LOT of educational materials are posted online and a lot of stuff assumes you have it at home. All the way from elementary school through high school.

      And the library? See that McDonald's article. It closes at 6PM. For a single parent, they'd get home maybe an hour before, rush their kids out to the library and try to get as much done.

      Everyone keeps complaining our education methods are stuck in the 19th century - we try to evolve them (see flip learning/Khan Academy) and we have the digital divide to contend with.

    29. Re:Cue the by Nostromo21 · · Score: 1

      Whooshed by an AC! :)

    30. Re:Cue the by dywolf · · Score: 2

      Internet access is the modern embodiment to Freedom of the Press, Speech, Religion, and Assembly, etc.
      In the internet you will find all these basic concepts of communication and association combined in one place.
      Access to the internet is the modern equivalent of all aspects of the First Amendment.
      It is very much just as important as a basic education, if not more so because it can itself be used to educate. /idealistic rant off

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    31. Re:Cue the by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, competition is working out oh so well for those who have basic needs. Gosh, look, internet up here is $100 per month!

      You don't have competition, you have government mandated monopolies (unless you're talking about dialup, which is dirt cheap).

    32. Re:Cue the by Vancorps · · Score: 1

      Spoken like someone that doesn't cross reference hundreds of different materials while learning stuff. Hell, just last night I reading about plumbing and watching videos on Youtube and that's fairly non-technical. Compare that with how I learned to deploy XenServer in a cluster using a NetApp SAN. Lots of cross-referencing there.Try that with any book and you're screwed. If you're talking about Internet access at the library then we're back to square one with OP.

    33. Re:Cue the by Vancorps · · Score: 2

      You are confused about the proposal, you were probably similarly confused about the healthcare debate. The government providing a free option does not mean that private options can't and won't exist.The fact that you can get private health insurance in the UK and other places where you have socialized healthcare should show you that it's not all or nothing.

      At 700mhz I'm likely to find my cable modem to perform a hell of a lot faster than this free wifi option. The security implications are interesting to ponder but hardly insurrmountable given that we already have more and more security concerns with private ISPs snooping on us. We'll build better tools to protect our privacy.

    34. Re:Cue the by HexaByte · · Score: 1

      I learned plumbing from my Dad and Uncle, electrical wiring from my uncle, tree trimming from another Uncle, sewing from my Aunts, auto mechanics, carpentry, and brick laying from others. And I did my first Linux build and install when the "Interenet" was CompUServe and FidoNet.

      I've built, plumbed and wired houses, fixed cars and trucks, trimmed and felled a lot or trees, and now I'm an IT guy. Yes, the internet makes some of that easier these days, and it's pretty much essential for IT, but to say you can't learn it w/o the internet is dishonest.

      The govt. never provided essential tools for me to do anything, except for my stint in the military. Keep the govt. out of our internet as much as possible. If you think govt. run internet is a good thing, just visit the Post Office or the DMV.

      Oh, don't forget, that if the internet is essential, we'll also have to pay for everyone to have an internet capable device. Obama Phone Girl will quickly become Obama Laptop Gir, with us working stiffs footing the bill!

      --
      HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
    35. Re:Cue the by legojenn · · Score: 1

      You might as well toss SiriusXM in there. Who needs satellite radio if can listen to online streaming anywhere anytime?

      --
      I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
    36. Re:Cue the by russotto · · Score: 1

      I've built, plumbed and wired houses, fixed cars and trucks, trimmed and felled a lot or trees, and now I'm an IT guy.

      You should have gone into data center operations. Most of those skills could have come in handy from time to time.

    37. Re:Cue the by Sporkinum · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "But you also could have mentioned that government managed public wifi will once again demonstrate the Tragedy of the Commons [wikipedia.org] as it slips inevitably into a cesspool of hackers, over-saturated bandwidth, government monitoring, censorship, and the never ending cries of "won't somebody please think of the children"

      This is exactly what I was thinking. Free WiFi sounds great, but in practice it would most likely end up like this comment.

      --
      "He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
    38. Re:Cue the by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I need to introduce you to my friend...Abe Froman.

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    39. Re:Cue the by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      The world needs ditch diggers too you know....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    40. Re:Cue the by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Don't know what industry YOU work in, but without internet access I wouldn't be able to get a job, and I don't think I'm unique in that respect! Most employers use job search sites or their own web page to post employment opportunities, and if you have no internet then you can't get to them can you? The days of looking through the Want Ads in printed newspapers are more or less gone.

      If needed, one can go use the computers at the local libraries, they have free internect connectivity there and can do the job searches you mentioned.

      Then again..not everyone is in IT, and you can still get LOTS of jobs in non-tech areas without the internet.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    41. Re:Cue the by taz346 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, as when the U.S. government "failed" by financing and building the Tennessee Valley Authority in the 1930s to bring cheap electricity to rural areas throughout the southern U.S. that were poorly served or completely unserved by the private utilities of the day. That's just one example of government stepping in to do what private companies only interested in short-term profits would never do. Today people in many countries enjoy better, more widespread, far cheaper Internet and Wifi access than the U.S., where most people have, at best, a choice of two monopolistic carriers only interested in squeezing higher and higher profits out of their customers. That's why, even in areas where U.S. citizens do have access to broadband and Wifi, it's way slower than many countries in Europe and Asia, costs far more, and is falling further and further behind. The private market is failing U.S. consumers.

    42. Re:Cue the by interkin3tic · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'd submit that the ditch diggers should be people who prove themselves unable to do anything more useful for society. Not just people whose parents couldn't afford better education certifications or internet service.

      Oh, crap, I've outed myself as a crazy socialist. Nevermind. Clearly the free market will sort out the best and brightest in the most efficient way possible. Clearly those without good internet access or good educations were always going to be useless, while every trust-fund kid was destined for great things, capitalism in education is THAT good that it goes back in time. If those people didn't want to be poor, they should have been born to more privileged families.

    43. Re:Cue the by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Please tell me you were deliberately missing the point here. Do you have a job? Would you have that job if you didn't know how to use a computer? Can you think of many decent jobs where knowing how to use a computer is not an advantage?

    44. Re:Cue the by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Education is also a luxury item.

      Internet access is an important part of today's society, just like education. It is almost a necessity for many common, everyday tasks, just like education.

      The FCC already regulates television and provides every home with access to a set of television stations. I don't see why they couldn't regulate public wireless internet access.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    45. Re:Cue the by oxdas · · Score: 1

      How is this different from the "private" internet? The government is already filtering and monitoring traffic right now. Google "AT&T NSA" if you need any evidence.

    46. Re:Cue the by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Hardly. I imagine free public wifi would be heavily throttled. QoS settings, in particular, would make it impossible to do things that require high bandwidth. It'd be most likely used to receive e-mail, maybe read wikipedia, and perhaps play flash games.

      As for government regulating public wifi, it certainly can be used to censor certain speech, but not without breaking the first amendment. Private entities don't have the bill of rights to consider, while the government does. So any service provided by the government would protect free speech more.

      And besides, nobody's taking away the landlines. I imagine if the FCC does censor say, indecent sites, the corporations won't. And if the corporations do irrespective of whether it's because of the government, then we have bigger problems than just government censorship of the internet.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    47. Re:Cue the by aurispector · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how internet access is so important that the .gov needs to be in the business. You could similarly argue that .gov/union control has killed education.

      Less choice in any market is always worse. Put the .gov in charge and it will take an act of congress to change anything. Those idiots can't seem to add, much less promulgate good internet access.

      Let the market do it's thing..

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    48. Re:Cue the by PRMan · · Score: 2

      I donated 6 old computers from my business to a church in an inner-city area at the request of one of a pastor of a local church. They set up for the kids in the neighborhood to have a place to do their homework after school (and play around if their work was done). The pastor of the inner-city area said that the schools REQUIRED computers with high-speed access, but that 80% of the families in the neighborhood didn't have any internet access. It really opened my eyes as to how required it really has become.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    49. Re:Cue the by HexaByte · · Score: 1

      I'm NOT missing the point! I am gainfully employed, and while my current job depends upon the internet, many do not. Carpenters don't rely on the internet, just a rulers, saws, squares, hammers, etc. Plumbers don't need the 'net, nor bricklayers, to do their jobs. Lots of others don't either.

      We all too quickly fall into the trap of "I can't function without X" once we have it for awhile.

      --
      HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
    50. Re:Cue the by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      The government providing a free option does not mean that private options can't and won't exist.

      While it may not mean that private options cannot exist, it certainly will mean, for all practical purposes, that they won't.

      Why pay for a private service that you can get your neighbors to buy you for free? What company will make a business plan saying they're going to sell something that you can get for free*, and what investor will hand them any money to do that? Insurance companies are already ending some services because of Obamacare, and more will follow as it reaches full implementation. There's your example.

      Like, what company in their right mind would start a bus service and charge money for rides when a city bus service exists and does it for free*? Oh, the private service may go where the public one doesn't?

      Now think about how this maps to "free wifi everywhere". Even if "everywhere" doesn't really mean "everywhere", those places the free* stuff isn't will be the same places where the pay services are unlikely to go because the density of users is too low to support the service. And the pay service definitely won't waste money providing service where everyone can get it for free*.

      The fact that you can get private health insurance in the UK and other places where you have socialized healthcare should show you that it's not all or nothing.

      Perfect example. People buy private health care in the UK because the public free* health care doesn't work very well and their lives depend on getting health care. Mapping that into wifi, you won't have people buying wifi when they can get it free* because their lives don't depend on it, and they can use the free* stuff AND complain about how bad the government provided free* stuff is at the same time. It's the national pass time -- get free* stuff and complain about how bad it is.

      At 700mhz I'm likely to find my cable modem to perform a hell of a lot faster than this free wifi option.

      If your cable modem actually "performs" at all, I'd be surprised. I assume you're talking about the data rate in some really odd units (frequency vs. bps), but even so, less than one per second is VERY VERY slow.

      * Free is really a dishonest way of saying it. You really mean to say "taxpayer funded", which means that even if it really is free for you, your neighbors ARE paying for it, even if they never use it. Someone is paying for it, and why shouldn't YOU pay for the service YOU want?

    51. Re:Cue the by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      I'd submit that the ditch diggers should be people who prove themselves unable to do anything more useful for society. Not just people whose parents couldn't afford better education certifications or internet service.

      Oh, crap, I've outed myself as a crazy socialist. Nevermind. Clearly the free market will sort out the best and brightest in the most efficient way possible. Clearly those without good internet access or good educations were always going to be useless, while every trust-fund kid was destined for great things, capitalism in education is THAT good that it goes back in time. If those people didn't want to be poor, they should have been born to more privileged families.

      True that there are always stupid people from wealthy backgrounds, and smart ones for poor ones...no one said everyone got an even start on the road of life.

      That being said, everyone is dealt a starting hand, and you have to work from there. This is the way it has always been. Some have to work a bit harder, but throughout life and as long as humans have existed, some will work that extra bit to succeed.

      You still see it out there in the world today.

      No, I don't believe it is up to the govt or the 'collective good' to ensure everyone has equal footing. I don't believe anyone should be held back, but I don't think my tax dollars should be spent trying to bring everyone up to a certain level. If you do that you bring up un-deserving people that are just a load on the system. But if you don't do that, how do you pick the ones that are truly bright and deserving of not being ditch diggers? And, if you do that...it shan't be long till someone yells discrimination.

      If people truly have the drive to succeed, no matter when they start in life...they WILL find a way to do what needs to be done.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    52. Re:Cue the by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Yes, as when the U.S. government "failed" by financing and building the Tennessee Valley Authority in the 1930s to bring cheap electricity to rural areas throughout the southern U.S. that were poorly served or completely unserved by the private utilities of the day. That's just one example of government stepping in to do what private companies only interested in short-term profits would never do.

      Yes, every time I visit the US and know I won't be travelling outside the Tennessee Valley where power is cheap and free and readily available, I always carry a generator so I can have 110AC. You won't find the luxury of mains power anyplace but in the Tennessee Valley, because there is no way for it to happen without the government doing it.

    53. Re: Cue the by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      Competition (and by that, I mean *real* competition, none of this "we'll create health care exchanges that cut off private companies at the knees so the only thing left is the government option" bullshit) breeds innovation and lower costs.

      Yes, because competition in health insurance worked so well...oh, what's the point?

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    54. Re:Cue the by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      And I did my first Linux build and install when the "Interenet" was CompUServe and FidoNet.

      Unless "Interenet" is something special (joking), no.

      According to wikipedia

      The defining component of Linux is the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released 5 October 1991 by Linus Torvalds.

      I was on the Internet several years before that, and others years before that.

    55. Re:Cue the by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      know I won't be travelling

      Crap. That should be "know I will be travelling outside", which started life as "won't be staying in".

    56. Re:Cue the by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      We need somewhere to put the trunk lines.

    57. Re:Cue the by tibman · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with the USPS? That place is quick! Also, you did use roads while traveling between jobs, right? That's government infrastructure.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    58. Re:Cue the by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Do you know how desperately my bank wants me to abandon the use of paper? It's touted as "green" and "environmentally friendly", and sure, I am all for that when it comes to coffee cups, but not when I could possibly be dragged into court, and be ruined financially by a lack of availability to hard copies of essential documents and records that might very-well exonerate me.

      So you think that that piece of paper, which could be easily faked on a computer + printer, is going to "save" you, whereas electronic records won't? That seems to be more "magical thinking".

      AFAIK (and correct me with specifics if I'm wrong), in situations like this, the laws have been amended to make the electronic copies JUST as legally binding as the paper copy you (previously) got. It's not exactly the same, but it's similar to the bank being able to microfilm your checks then destroy the originals, and the microfilm copies being legally equivalent⦠or now, being able to deposit checks entirely on your phone and being able to destroy the check sometime soon.

    59. Re:Cue the by tibman · · Score: 1

      People don't use the yellow pages to call up plumbers anymore. You have to have an online presence.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    60. Re:Cue the by SteffenM · · Score: 1

      The problem is, of course, that the market already did it's "thing".

      That thing was to dice up the country into little fiefdoms for each of the ISPs so they could charge whatever the hell they wanted to, which is why we have studies that show US citizens pay the most per megabyte for internet access than anyone else in the world.

      I agree with your reservations about the government directly managing the infrastructure of internet access for all citizens, but maybe they could classify it as a utility and have it regulated similar to electricity and water.

    61. Re:Cue the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You know fuck you and your anti-government attitude Ever hear of promoting the general welfare? Of course, you can only think of yourself. Government works fine despite the conservatives attempts to kill it. Of course, if you don't like how things are run in America, I'll tell you what the right wing told the hippies in the 60's If you don't like the way things are run, you are welcome to leave.

    62. Re:Cue the by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "I fail to see how internet access is so important that the .gov needs to be in the business. You could similarly argue that .gov/union control has killed education."

      Well, let's see: lack of choice re: which school to attend, negative correlation (above a certain baseline) between dollars spent and learning ... rhen there is the Wisconsin situation, in which the teachers are arguably better off (higher pay, equal medical care) now that they are out of the union, etc. etc.

      Yep. One sure can argue that.

      But here's the thing: there *IS* such a thing as a "natural monopoly". When the U.S. was building its telephone infrastructure Ma Bell was given reign, but was very strictly regulated. As a result, the U.S. developed a coherent, interoperative, country-wide telephone infrastructure that was the envy of the world.

      In contrast, the countries in which private companies were allowed to compete (much of Europe for example), ended up with multiple, often redundant, but incompatible phone systems. Voltages and signalling were different. If you were on one system and the next-door neighbor was on another, often you could not even call them.

      Of course now we have competition for the landlines, but the majority of infrastructure was already built. Not so, for the internet.

      Result: the countries where it is required that internet companies "share" (lease) backbone infrastructure to other parties are kicking the United States' ass in both service and pricing. Here, private companies have been allowed to build the whole thing, pretty much, and they have developed local monopolies. As a consequence prices are high and service is low, compared to the world average.

      There is A LOT of good reason to regulate internet companies the way telephone companies were regulated. For one thing, the FCC should be allowed to declare ISPs to be Title II Common Carriers. (Which it would have done long ago, but the industry lobbied Congress, which made an exception just for them.) Then many current privacy concerns would simply disappear. Then they could also require backbone-sharing, which all evidence suggests would foster more competition, better service, and lower prices.

      Does the government need to "get involved" in the process beyond that? That is debatable. But one thing is for sure: it will never be free nationwide if they don't.

    63. Re:Cue the by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      If the US government owns it, the US government will censor it, and in fact it has already taken steps in that direction. The "memory tube" will be instantaneous.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    64. Re:Cue the by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      People who don't have internet access will not be a part of creating what comes next.

      Sez you. Lack of internet access is no restriction to learning most engineering and science disciplines, mathematics, writing fiction, advances in philosophy, etc.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    65. Re:Cue the by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      You can get by just fine without it.

      Can you? More and more education resources are on the internet. Most universities require you to have a computer. More government resources or online.
      Some people believed that the libraries were important to provide them free to everyone.
      And yeah, right now you won't starve if you don't have internet access, that won't necessarily be true in a few years.

    66. Re:Cue the by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      the Sausage Master is right. Single provider = single point of control, and that's not a good thing. Competition breeds innovation and lower costs.

      While that is all true, when was the last time there was a heated debate about how poor our sewage system is, or our water system?

    67. Re:Cue the by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      And I'm sorry you don't understand the difference between reading abilities and content structure.

    68. Re:Cue the by Psiolent · · Score: 1

      The FCC is not proposing that the govt. actually become an ISP. All the FCC is proposing is that a band of spectrum be opened up for unlicensed wireless Internet access. What this means is that anyone could set up shop and become the ISP, such as municipalities, private corporations, or IT Bob providing access to his neighbors.

      What this essentially does is reboot the current Internet access model and create a well-fertilized field in which something else can grow. This gives us more choice, not less. There are no guarantees that what grows there is Good, but what it is not going to be is an ISP run by the Federal Govt.

    69. Re:Cue the by MisterSquid · · Score: 1

      You are such a fucking tool it's really hard to know where to begin. Fucking asshole.

      --
      blog
    70. Re:Cue the by JohnRoss1968 · · Score: 1

      Considering the state of our educational system, this is not a shocking statement.

    71. Re:Cue the by radiumsoup · · Score: 1

      don't confuse commodities with utilities. The internet is not a utility, and if you want it to improve above and beyond the 100+ year-old pipes in most cities, you'll want to make sure it stays not being a utility.

    72. Re:Cue the by NulDevice · · Score: 2

      The market did. The market decided that, to quote one provider I spoke to when trying to get DSL access to a semi-rural area, "there's not enough money in that."

      I am aware of this stuff because my family lives in said semi-rural area. Big vacation/tourist zone, about 10 miles outside a town of 3000. Their options for connectivity are: slow, expensive satellite (the faster, expensive satellite isn't available in their area either), or dial-up. One local telco says they might have DSL access in the area by 2015. *Might*. The big regional telco has said it's not worth their while.

      The local library has internet access. It's 10 miles away, poorly staffed (municipal cuts have gutted the library's budget) and the network is frequently down. The McDonald's by the highway is the most reliable net access in town.

      Yeah, the free market did it's thing, and decided that my family doesn't matter.

      --

      ----
      "I used to listen to Null Device before they sold out."

    73. Re:Cue the by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      Does anyone here actually understand what they are reading. The government is NOT going to become the ISP. What it will do is build the infrastructure for high speed internet then become a tier 1 provider, leasing it's lines to many other companies.

      What the FCC is asking is that the government fill in the blanks, blindspots, and weak datapaths in the American network.The problem is that the network cartel(, and believe me that is what it is due to price fixing) created a terribly slow, inefficient network and most of it would need to be gutted.

    74. Re:Cue the by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      I seriously can't put up there with education. Internet access, while really cool and fun, is still in the category of luxury item. You can get by just fine without it.

      I think an Internet connection is more important then access to education. I mean once basic education is provided, more can be learned online then through school and at a faster rate and for far less money. If you havent noticed, a lot of education programs have been moving online and most of it is free. And this is not limited to basic information, but higher and specialized education. The Internet is a great source of education and I believe it now exceeds anything you can receive through traditional sources. The only difference now is the recognized certification you still need to pay for. But this too will change (IMO). As an employer, I would much rather have an employee who knows how to educate themselves online vs a worker who requires a structured institution to gather the same knowledge.

      Further, online education does not discriminate against the poor. It does not discriminate based on borders. It does not discriminate on age, sex, etc.

      For me: I went through higher education, but a couple of years ago I realized that I did have learned more online then through formal education and work experience combined.

      you can always go to the public library to use it there.

      Have you been to a library lately? In my city, the library has an increasing space of rows of computers on tables. These computers are almost always full with a signup waiting list. Then there are the rows of empty tables with people sitting using their own laptops. So libraries here are exactly that: free access to wifi/internet. And they just cant seem to keep up with the demand for it. .... and no... not everyone is surfing for porn.

      Internet access should be a right. Have you tried to get a job lately without it? Just go into a major grocery chain or department store and try to hand them your resume. They will tell you to submit it online. Taking the Internet away should be similar to removing other rights, like freedom of liberties.

      Why would you speak negatively of the idea of providing basic free wifi to the masses? Just because you can afford it is no reason to condemn those who cannot.

    75. Re:Cue the by DirtyLiar · · Score: 1

      I'm shocked, shocked.

      Did I tell you how shocked I am? Really, I'm so shocked.

      Did someone tell you there was gambling in "Rick's Place"?

      --

      THINK! It's patriotic

    76. Re:Cue the by DirtyLiar · · Score: 1

      Except we don't have anything approaching real competition in either internet, phone, cell or cable industries in the US.

      That's why you can get cheaper phone+unlimited high speed internet+tv+cell in places like South Korea, $30 a month for that package last I heard, than here in the USA.

      --

      THINK! It's patriotic

  2. Is the Censorship free too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How long before this free wifi resembles the great firewall of china?

    1. Re:Is the Censorship free too? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Why is this a troll? With government control comes regulation at the behest of power-hungry politicians leading people on cruscades.

      Mandatory online IDs will follow, with tracking of everything you do, and not for something relatively harmless like selling your habits to advertisers.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  3. Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too! by ClassicASP · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You get what you pay for

  4. Just like a public library by junkfish · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Internet Access should be like Library Access.

    It is a little different because it is for knowledge, commerce, and entertainmnet.
    But it seems like a gevernment service that should provide for a populace to thrive.

    1. Re:Just like a public library by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Internet Access should be like Library Access.

      It is a little different because it is for knowledge,

      Learning about porn.

      commerce,

      Buying porn.

      and entertainmnet.

      Watching porn.

      But it seems like a gevernment service that should provide for a populace to thrive.

    2. Re:Just like a public library by wolfemi1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Internet Access should be like Library Access.

      It is a little different because it is for knowledge, commerce, and entertainmnet.

      Why does that make it different? The library is also for knowledge, commerce (though less so), and entertainment.

    3. Re:Just like a public library by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Internet Access should be like Library Access.

      You mean everyone should be authenticated by a uniquely identifiable library card? No thank you!

    4. Re:Just like a public library by junkfish · · Score: 1

      I see the government pay for roadways, which are used heavly for commernce. The library is less so. Internet is heavily used for commerce, like that of the roadways, but also knowledge and entertainmnet.
      I guess compared to roads, they can be used for commerce, lesuire, and military. so they may be more simila than not.

    5. Re:Just like a public library by SQLGuru · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Who buys it when there's so much out there that's free?

    6. Re:Just like a public library by SydShamino · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have you been to a library? They don't card you when you walk in the door, only if/when you want to leave with some of their property for free.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    7. Re:Just like a public library by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Or when you want to use one of their computers.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Just like a public library by magarity · · Score: 1

      Or when you want to use one of their computers.

      No need for a card to use the library computer where I live. If yours does, you should attend local city council meetings and suggest this be changed.

    9. Re: Just like a public library by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Ok, no. Stop it, you're wrong.

      We get it; you don't like taxes. Fine. But you don't get to invent your own dictionary where you redefine words and then "correct" people who are actually using those words correctly. That is not a legitimate form of argument.

      Pay is defined as "to give someone money for work done." Just because you don't agree with the money being given or how much is being given does not change the fact that the government is giving someone money in exchange for some form of work or service.

    10. Re:Just like a public library by BriggsBU · · Score: 1

      The difference is that the government collects taxes (via fuel/gas taxes) to pay for the roadway upkeep.

      I would rather not have an internet tax. How long ago was it that they had proposed the idea of charging for a virtual stamp to send emails?

    11. Re:Just like a public library by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      The same people who buy books even though they can get them at the library for free?

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    12. Re:Just like a public library by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      How long ago was it that they had proposed the idea of charging for a virtual stamp to send emails?

      [citation needed]

      This has been a *rumor* for a very long time, but has anyone ever *seriously* proposed it? I don't think so.

    13. Re:Just like a public library by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      You can't keep a library book forever, but when you buy a book, you do. The internet, by its very nature, is transitory. You can save the information and/or print it out, but the cost of doing so is marginal. So the cases are not comparable.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    14. Re:Just like a public library by AnotherAnonymousUser · · Score: 1

      Seems to have worked for the bottled water industry.

  5. Buy back? Didn't we just do that w/ Analog? by WillAdams · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wasn't the intention of getting that spectrum which was used for analog TV to use it for such things? If it isn't suitable for such, why the change? If the new digital TV spectrum was suited for this, why was it sold?

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    1. Re:Buy back? Didn't we just do that w/ Analog? by msauve · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's a load of BS. There's no need to buy back anything. Spectrum belongs to the people, and can't be legitimately sold, despite what the government thinks it can do. It's a public resource, and the most the government can do is manage it, not sell it.

      Just take it back and use it for a better purpose than it's being used for now. No need to "buy" or compensate anybody - they've been making money off a public resource and have nothing to complain about if that resource goes away.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:Buy back? Didn't we just do that w/ Analog? by radiumsoup · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it's not sold, it's licensed, and the Federal government already manages the spectrum, in exactly the way you probably think they should. The term "buyback" would apply to existing licenses which have not yet expired. Its current use is contested because a large number of spectrum users never actually paid for the portion they've licensed out to begin with, so to have the government pay those licensees to abandon the license is a hotly debated topic.

      But to pull the plug on licensees without giving them a viable alternative is highly disruptive to commerce. If hardware already exists which was designed for a certain band, and that band is suddenly pulled because of some bureaucrat's hardon for "free" wifi, then the infrastructure that is already in place would become useless without modification. The "buyback" funds are a way to encourage the infrastructure owners to go along with the relicensing; they would have the funds provided to convert or update the infrastructure to adapt to the spectrum change. Again, it might not be the best way to go about doing things, but it doesn't mean that pulling the rug out from under everyone is any better.

  6. Nice idea, but... by ilsaloving · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How many municipalities have been sued into oblivion by incumbents who cried "unfair competition"?

    1. Re:Nice idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It'll work because every 15 minutes or so my Internet access will be interrupted by a commercial advertisement or the President's latest message to the masses.

    2. Re:Nice idea, but... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      The US post office and state lotteries disagree with you.

    3. Re:Nice idea, but... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      It's hardly necessary to get municipalities involved; in many Towns there are dozens of WiFi AP's per block.

      And nearly every one of those is locked down because there's a very real threat that opening the AP will lead to a S.W.A.T. Team kicking down your door, shooting your dog, and men-in-black ransacking your house "looking for the kiddie porn" (or has MAFFIA prosecution overtaken that in seriousness yet?).

      Fix that, and the problem gets solved organically. Oh, but reigning in out-of-control courts and DA's is hard but building a government supermesh is easy.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:Nice idea, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Monopolies are not unfair, abuse of monopolistic powers are, which applies to non-monopolies.

    5. Re:Nice idea, but... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Last time I looked, the USPS still had a legally enforced monopoly on certain types of mail, and a legally enforced monopoly on the use of mailboxes for US mail (i.e. only the USPS can deliver mail to the mailbox, if you want a mailbox for other delivery services, it has to be a separate box.)

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  7. United States of Botnet by ButchDeLoria · · Score: 2

    I sure can't see this being a means of catching political dissidents.

  8. The real reason this will gain traction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Wi-Spy. Ordinarily this wouldn't get past the objections of the lobbyists, but given the massive potential for spying and tracking the citizenry without need for bothersome things like warrants or requests to third parties which create a trail that exposes how often this is done, I think this may just stand a chance. It will be very interesting to me to see if this free wifi requires some sort of registration/authentication because once that happens, the anonymous Internet will take a giant leap towards extinction.

    1. Re:The real reason this will gain traction by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Not true. If there is no threat from traffic shaping, the use of encryption will become more useful and widespread.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  9. Source? by vlm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What's the source? Its a /. post of a journalist story about a journalist story about a journalist story then I gave up trying to track back.

    I poked around fcc.gov and found almost nothing, so its either really old, really new, or really made up / out of context / unofficial daydream.

    I'm an old time reader of FCC part 97 (and others!) so don't try to scare me off with "we need non-technical journalists to translate into prole-speak" I'm quite sure I could handle the primary source... if it actually exists.

    Another thing is it won't be wifi although journalists confuse any wireless internet access with wifi. Lets say you get UHF tv channel 46 vacated and reassigned. That doesn't mean a magic firmware download, even to a SDR, will necessarily magically start working in that 662-668 MHz channel.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Source? by foobsr · · Score: 4, Informative
      Quote: "The five-member FCC panel has yet to vote on the proposal. Mashable (http://mashable.com/2013/02/04/public-wifi-networks/) has reached out to the FCC for comment and will update this post with any response."

      CC.

      --
      TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
    2. Re:Source? by Aleeb · · Score: 1

      The author of the Washington Post article apparently did a clueless mashup of three different things and got virtually every fact wrong.

      First, the FCC isn't going to create nationwide free Wi-Fi. It is trying to make some more radio spectrum available for unlicensed uses, some of which may ultimately be part of the 802.11 Wi-Fi standard or something like it. The FCC isn't building networks itself; it's just making spectrum available for users and entrepreneurs.

      Second, the article seems to be referring to three very different unlicensed spectrum blocks. One is the so-called TV White Spaces, which in the past has been predicted to become "Wi-Fi on steroids," however unlikely that may be. White Spaces is simply TV channels that are unoccupied. The FCC limits which channels can be used, and it requires a database dip to determine whether the channel is truly unoccupied. This hasn't really gotten off the ground yet, and it's going to get a lot harder soon, due to the second item.

      Item two is the Congressionally mandated "Incentive Auction" that will cause TV stations to sell off some UHF TV channels and repack the stations into fewer channels. The resulting freed-up spectrum will mostly be auctioned to commercial mobile wireless companies. Some portion of the freed-up spectrum may also be set aside for unlicensed use, but it isn't going to be large new blocks of spectrum that will allow for "super Wi-Fi," and the repacking of TV stations will also result in fewer TV White Spaces that can be used for unlicensed wireless. This auctioning and repacking process was set forth in the "Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act" from early 2012, and the FCC is now conducting a rulemaking to figure out how to make it work. Thousands of pages of comments were filed with the FCC on every aspect of this plan on January 25, so the concept has recently been in the news.

      The third item that the Post reporter mashed together with TV White Spaces and Incentive Auctions also comes from the 2012 tax relief bill -- a reallocation of spectrum in the 5 GHz band from federal government to non-government use. The Commerce Department has determined that this spectrum can be reallocated, and the FCC is going to consider a notice of proposed rulemaking regarding this in February. In early January, the FCC chairman announced this as a plan to free up as much as 195 MHz of spectrum for "Gigabit Wi-Fi." His speech is available here: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-318326A1.pdf.

  10. Essential need? by stevegee58 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I thought the only essential needs were food, water and shelter.

    1. Re:Essential need? by BaronAaron · · Score: 1

      I thought the only essential needs were food, water and shelter.

      Imagine how much harder it would to insure those essentials if we didn't have technology created by smart people (education) with a means for those people to share ideas (stone tablets, scrolls, books, and now the Internet).

  11. Methinks . . . by bogidu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My takehome pay just decreased again.

    1. Re:Methinks . . . by asylumx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd rather pay my $60/mo to the gov't than to Comcast, assuming I get a similar service in return.

    2. Re:Methinks . . . by ozydingo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      First, don't assume the government has your best interests at heart (they don't), and second assume everything you do will be fully and completely monitored without the slightest expectation of privacy.

      Yep, sounds like similar service to me

    3. Re:Methinks . . . by Kaptain+Kruton · · Score: 1

      Why? I am not a huge fan of Comcast and I do not mean this as a troll... I just don't understand why you would rather pay money to the government than businesses if you are paying the same amount and receiving a similar service.

    4. Re:Methinks . . . by metrometro · · Score: 1

      All else being equal, I'd rather have a service provider that is legally accountable, however imperfectly, to the end users.

    5. Re:Methinks . . . by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 2

      The government might not have your best interests at heart, but your best interests are closer to the government's heart then they are to the heart of the corporations that are in control of internet access now.

    6. Re:Methinks . . . by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You think it's easier to sue a government vs. a corporation?

      You think it's easier to vote out a government vs. voting with your dollars and getting broadband from the alternatives (e.g. Telco or mobile)?

      I agree with you, but come to the opposite conclusion.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:Methinks . . . by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Same here, which is why I think it's a horrible idea for the government to do this.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    8. Re:Methinks . . . by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I hope you don't think that the government is legally accountable...

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    9. Re:Methinks . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No they aren't. A company has to worry that you'll go to the competition if they screw you over.

      There *IS NO* competition for the government.

    10. Re:Methinks . . . by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Like a moth to a flame...You think warrantless wiretapping was bad now, just you wait until all these government connections terminate to a "Patriot Firewall" administered and data-mined by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). You FOOL!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    11. Re:Methinks . . . by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      We have put the same corporations in charge of the government. Our best interests aren't on the agenda either way.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    12. Re:Methinks . . . by asylumx · · Score: 1

      Ya, seriously, I don't know why some people put so much faith in the "private industry" as if it isn't full of the same bastard coated bastards with bastard filling as the gov't. At least I get to vote every few years to try to affect the gov't.

  12. Change who we hold liable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd be happy to leave my wifi open for anyone to use, and I'm sure others would too. Almost anywhere I go there are at least 3-4 wifi signals. However the internet has done a good job of telling everyone if they don't secure their internet then you will go to prison, instead of holding the actual users responsible. So most people lock up their wifi out of fear that the RIAA is going to sue them to an oblivion.

  13. Humanitarian(esque) by MatrixCubed · · Score: 2

    Without going into conspiracy theories and donning tinfoil hats, the idealistic situation where I can go "anywhere" and WiFi is available to me, seems nice. I wouldn't need a data plan from my ISP except for extremely rural areas where network penetration is nigh impossible.

    Essentially, this is an initiative which attempts to bring everyone up-to-speed with current internet accessibility technology, and puts everyone on an equal playing ground. Folks who can't afford internet access, folks in rural areas who don't bother with internet access due to lifestyle/need or current access limitations. Elderly who often don't approach the internet world due to technology's general confusing nature.

    It seems that earliest adoption should be implemented in such a fashion as to bear the most impact for the greatest number of people (e.g. low-income residences, schools, libraries, or some other demographic). But are there other, more important "everyday human" needs, which the FCC can and should address, rather than attempting to offer a public WiFi mega-network?

  14. Conservatives will hate this. by sidragon.net · · Score: 3, Funny

    The government has no business spending on infrastructure. Roads, bridges, telephones, police, fire fighters, and democracy have all been bad enough for our great nation!

  15. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by eksith · · Score: 2

    Use Tor, unless that's blocked somehow as well.

    This may sound silly, but I think if everyone used Tor whenever they're on a public wifi hotspot, there would be fewer problems with privacy. All these horror stories of identity theft and bank info stolen etc... etc... have happened in many cases when people used unsecured wifi.

    --
    If computers were people, I'd be a misanthrope.
  16. Logical by TEG24601 · · Score: 1

    It would be a great idea, much like antenna TV. This free Internet (don't call it WiFi), could be limited speed, limited use, and censored (like TV). Then if you want higher speeds, and uncensored you can purchase a service (either wired or wireless) similar to Cable/Satellite TV. There could even be Ads on it to pay for the service, either local ISPs or government can provide the service, or purpose built companies, like TV/Radio stations, and there could even be competition, to allow for the broadcasters to charge more for ad space.

  17. Uh No by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't want the Federal Government running some general public access internet. Very Bad Idea.

    I do want the FCC to open up existing infrastructure to alternative carriers. The current plan which allows carriers to exclude competitors is very bad.

    I do want the FCC to make available bandwidth to more carriers, and to open up more bandwidth to WiFi.

    I do want Congress to pass a law banning cable franchises by local and state governments.

    I do want laws specifically enabling municipal internet utilities, especially on this new bandwidth.

    1. Re:Uh No by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Uh No by kenh · · Score: 1

      Just to pic two of your points:

      I do want Congress to pass a law banning cable franchises by local and state governments.

      And how, exactly would said municipalities force telcos and cable companies to serve the lower-income areas of the town? It is the offer of a monopoly that allows the local governments to enforce access requirements.

      I do want laws specifically enabling municipal internet utilities, especially on this new bandwidth.

      Yeah, because every time a local/municipal government decides to start a business (incinerator, prison, etc.) it always works out so well...

      --
      Ken
    3. Re:Uh No by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the privately run internet providers are doing such a wonderful job that we should not question this model at all.

      I have lived in several towns that have had municipal run utilities. I have also lived in one town that had a privately run water system.

      The private water system was horrific.

      Some utilities work just fine run by a municipality. And it would eliminate the issue of provision to the less economically advantaged parts of the town. Something that is a big issue with services like FIOS.

  18. Re:the real conspiracy: killing on-air TV by kaiser423 · · Score: 2

    The US government is selling off Upper L-Band TM, lower L-Band TM, and S-Band TM allocations within the next 5-10 years. Those are THE beachfront, prime spectrum bands that the US government owns that can be used for cell networks. The plan has been rolling for at least 5 years already now. It does take a while to upgrade every single test asset that the government uses to the new C-Band spectrum. It's going to take probably 75% of the money that the government will get from sale of this spectrum to pay for the upgrades (aka, tens of billions of dollars).

    So, yea, they're working it. In fact, the push has become very, very sustained these last 3-4 years.

  19. Re:Logical by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

    I'm not happy about the government running it censored - once the government has shown that they can keep the evil dirty porn and pirate sites blocked (Even though any script-kiddie will soon learn how to bypass this), there will be strong pressure on private ISPs to follow. Running it uncensored isn't going to fly for long politically, so it'd be better to have the government keep their hands off.

  20. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 4, Informative

    Tor won't protect you from identity theft, that's what encryption is for. Tor without encryption just tells MORE people what you are doing.

  21. Re:Make it really available, Geostationary by hawguy · · Score: 1

    If it was free a geostationary satellite would make access available to everyone even in very remote areas. There is the ping time issue but that is a performance problem; there are commercial alternatives available to almost everyone so this would prevent the commercial providers from getting killed.
    My worry is what DHS and the Jesus lobby would do with the network control.

    Yeah, the ping times are the weak part of that plan. Providing internet service to 300 million devices from a single satellite is the easy part.

  22. I don't want my Internet access like my Library by cdecoro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's all well and good to talk about internet access being a "right" or a "public service," but please realize that simply because some government passes a law saying so, doesn't mean that wide-spread free internet access will come to pass. Take the example of my library: they are closed at times that someone might actually want to go, like in the evening after normal people from work, most of Sunday, and all major -- and most minor -- holidays. Their computer terminals seem to be something from the era of the IBM AT; and there are only 4 of them. The employees are surly and even aggressive, and don't care to be even the slightest bit helpful. And the entire building is decrepit and smells.

    So I have the "right" to free information at a library (actually, I pay for it in taxes, but whatever), but the manifestation of that right is such that I don't actually want it. Yet we are expected to believe that, although our government can't run a library, despite having had hundreds of years to figure out, they're going to do a great job with modern and rapidly changing technologies. Call me pessimistic, but I don't see it happening.

    The solution is to promote competition in Internet access: end the (government-created and propped-up) cable, phone, and wireless monopolies, and once there is a healthy market, let the market take care of lowering prices.

    Recall that the U.S.S.R. declared food to be a basic human right, to be provided by the government. And who could argue with that, right? Yet the result was bread lines and empty shelves. In the U.S., we don't declare food to be a government-provided right, and yet we have so much food that our poor people are obese.

    To preempt the flamers: no, I'm not arguing that the government should never have a role in assisting the poor (sometimes it should), or that companies are always good, or that the market is always perfect (they aren't; it's not). But I am extremely cautious in endorsing this as a good idea, for the above-stated reasons that have nothing to do with my own (non-existant) profit margins or political donations. So when others oppose it, please don't automatically ascribe such motives to them, either.

    1. Re:I don't want my Internet access like my Library by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Take the example of my library: they are closed at times that someone might actually want to go, like in the evening after normal people from work, most of Sunday, and all major -- and most minor -- holidays. Their computer terminals seem to be something from the era of the IBM AT; and there are only 4 of them. The employees are surly and even aggressive, and don't care to be even the slightest bit helpful. And the entire building is decrepit and smells.

      What sort of funding does your library get? It's almost certainly just grossly underfunded. No money means no hours, no building maintenance, no new computers, overworked librarians. My local library is fairly well funded and it's clean, has fairly good hours (less than before the crash though), friendly staff. Sounds to me like your library needs more government investment, not less.

  23. "Free? I do not think this word means ... by Feyshtey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... what you think it means. "

    How can these jackasses continue to use words like "free" to make it sound like they are giving a gift to the nation when we are the ones they will damn well expect to pay for it with taxes? And why arent each and every one of you calling them out for it?

    --
    "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
  24. Re:the real conspiracy: killing on-air TV by bytestorm · · Score: 1

    Hi. If you mean held for by the government in that they manage and regulate it, then yes. That's what they're supposed to do. If you mean to imply that only the government uses it, then you're amazingly misinformed. Here's a chart that shows the usage allocation of US spectrum. The narrow bar under the spectrum indicates the primary user (commercial-only, government-only, shared)
    US Frequency Allocation Table

  25. Singapore already does this by SoulMaster · · Score: 1

    I realize that it's a much smaller, and MUCH richer country than ours, but Singapore already does this. There, you have a choice: Use the free Gov't access, choose a different provider (or tether), or do some combination of both.

    Done right, this could simply be another competitor in what will soon be a crowded field. Obviously, there's going to be some mistrust of how the gov't will use the collected data, but I would guess that the majority of people don't care enough about how (or are ignorant to the fact that) the government is going to use the tracking data for it to be anything other than a minor news story if this moves forward.

    My 2 bytes.

    -SM

  26. Re:the real conspiracy: killing on-air TV by bytestorm · · Score: 1

    Sorry, how about I link one made in the last 10 years.
    Frequency Allocation table, August 2011

  27. More Surveillance. by 7-Vodka · · Score: 2

    Ya. Like the government doesn't already illegally copy and store all our data they can get their hands on. And then tries to imprison the whistleblowers that let us know they were conducting these illegal acts. I can think of no one better to host my wifi sessions *rolls eyes*.

    A strategy like that can only help to cut out the middleman and increase data availability. (your private data, availability to the fascist nutters.)

    I'm more interested in how long it takes someone to figure out the gold standards for privacy online in today's environment and make a debian distro that enables fine grained control of these standards with ease.

    When are we going to build an encrypted network on top of the internet and just cut out the government clowns?

    --

    Liberty.

  28. As needs be... by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I thought the only essential needs were food, water and shelter.

    That's true, along with air and sleep*.

    Also, needs are defined in different ways depending on circumstance, with no consensus. Certainly food is a need, but is sunshine? We get vitamin D from sunshine, and diet can't make up for lack. Sex is a biological imperative, but can at any time be put off until later.

    Needs also form a sort of "hierarchy", where once you are satisfied at a certain level, adding more at that level will gain you nothing. A company can't raise morale by making the bathroom even cleaner than it is - once the bathroom is "clean enough", extra work makes no appreciable difference. Once you have enough to eat, having more doesn't make you happier.

    "Safety" is also a need, and depending on the school of thought it comes before or after food and water.

    Once you have several layers of needs met, you reach the layer of "self actualization", which is loosely "the need to accomplish something".

    That's what this proposal addresses - the need for people to better themselves, and to do something useful with their time.

    This proposal is a good idea in many ways - ethically, economically, technically, environmentally. There's no down-side that I can see.

    To take one example (economics), new businesses arise from innovation built on infrastructure. This type of infrastructure will foster an enormous boon in productivity, business, employment, and general well-being of people in the country.

    In the same manner that the Interstate Highway System fostered economic progress by giving companies easy access to cheap product delivery.

    This is exactly the type of project that centralized government should be doing - it promotes growth, increased productivity, jobs, and general welfare. It's of benefit to the people, and not pork directed to specific selected companies.

    *I hope this doesn't read as snarky - that's not my intent.

    1. Re:As needs be... by cdrguru · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Unfortunately, what the Interstate Highway System gave us was unregulated trucking, which in turn pushed the railroads out of the freight business almost completely. With no need for rail freight except in special cases, we have ripped up much of the rail network and built suburbs over it. Most of the passenger rail lines were sold off to the freight companies as well.

      People are now thinking it might be nice to take the train somewhere, only to find out there are no rails left. And putting new rails in would require demolishing lots and lots of houses and streets.

      Was all of this planned?

      A nationwide wireless Internet service might be a good thing. It might provide some competition to Google who will certainly offer such a thing if allowed to - and use it for ad revenue and collecting demographic data to sell. I do not like the idea that all Internet access will be controlled by the government and Google in a few years, but that is exactly where we are heading.

    2. Re:As needs be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually the US has one of the more impressive freight rail systems in the world. It was passenger rail that was inhibited by the development of the auto which includes automobile roads of course.

  29. Social Albatrosses by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    If religious groups are fighting tooth and nail against a woman's right to sexual healthcare, you can imagine how much of the Internet they would want banned on public wifi. The blacklists would be longer than both of their works of fiction combined.

    1. Re:Social Albatrosses by kenh · · Score: 1

      Really? You think that is the issue?

      The religious argument is against the churces PAYING for contraceptives and so-called "morning after" pills even though it is against their religion.

      Before Obamacare created this sense of entitlement that all employees with employer-subsidised healthcare shoudl get free birth control most employees had to pay for it out of pocket - somehow that wasn't an issue until someone proposed making it free.

      How, exactly, would a church-related group prevent an employee from buying birth control? Why couldn't any employee so inclined go to Target and get a $5-10/30 day supply? Go to Planned Parenthood and get their birth control for free there?

      You really should try and develop your critical thinking skills a bit more - just because someone on MSNBC says something doesn't mean it's true.

      --
      Ken
  30. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Because we are reasonable people who understand that "free" can have more than one meaning, one of them being "paid for by your taxes".

    You are not the rare island of sanity in the sea of lunatics that you so desperately want to be seen as. And you never will be.

  31. Community Driven by duxklr · · Score: 1

    We can start now: https://openwireless.org/

  32. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by metrometro · · Score: 2

    Why arent each and every one of you calling them out for it?

    Because I already pay an Internet tax, to AT&T. I've been paying it to them for 10 years, and despite a whirlwind of technical advancement they haven't improved my service or lowered my price in a decade. In fact, my home service is more constrained and monitored than it was ten years ago.

    I'm ready to try plan B.

  33. Re:Worried about GPS too? by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

    I know you're joking, but everyone needs to realize that GPS devices don't communicate back to the GPS satellites.

  34. Re:Logical by TEG24601 · · Score: 1

    By Censorship, I meant .xxx domains, and certain ports. Yes, it would be easy to get around, but wouldn't be any different that television/radio.

  35. Can't see it being "free", not in my lifetime by kheldan · · Score: 2

    I think what really needs to happen is reform of how ISPs do business and what they charge, bringing a basic level of internet service to something resembling the way basic wired telephone service used to be, so that all but the most poverty-striken can get access to it for a very low price. Let's face it: if all you need is a "subsistence" level of internet access (enough for email, slow but usable web access, no streaming of movies, large downloads, or online gaming) then you only need 1Mb/sec (or less) on the downstream side, right? With the way web pages are bloated with Flash and Javascript these days they would load as slow as pages loaded when dialup was the norm, but it'd be better than nothing, right? That's what I think needs to happen.

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    1. Re:Can't see it being "free", not in my lifetime by kenh · · Score: 1

      I can hear the commentaters on the Left gearing up to ask you "Why do you want to treat the poor as second-class citizens?"

      --
      Ken
    2. Re:Can't see it being "free", not in my lifetime by kheldan · · Score: 1

      ..second-class citizens

      And how precisely am I doing that? By not advocating "free everything for everyone"? Even without any sort of reform or ill-conceived FCC recommendations, there is free internet access at public libraries, schools, and some businesses (assuming you have a portable computer).

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  36. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Cringe. Cower. Cry.

    You are right to be paranoid, you are in the wrong to have suggested these technologies without really understanding how they work and are endangering others.

    Let me give you a few facts off the top of my head. Cosmetic details may be inaccurate, but this is the kernel of truth.

    1) Tor hides the origin of your traffic from the recipient
    2) Tor makes attempts to hide you from traffic analysis, but is not robust against traffic analysis attacks.
    3) Some of the largest exit nodes in the world would cost upwards of $1M per month to run based upon traffic patterns -- this strongly suggests state funded intelligence.
    4) About three years ago, hundreds of embassy email accounts and passwords were compromised doing *exactly* what you suggest -- including US, Israeli, Russian...

    Here's the deal -- tor hides your traffic origins and destinations. This only works IF you have it set up correctly. If you just downloaded it -- you almost certainly leak flash, DNS, and java.

    Even if you downloaded a package, flash is likely to leak.

    Even if you do it all right, I know how to start leaking privacy by fucking with custom and faked DNS settings buried in a recipient page, but that's beyond the scope here.

    The bottom line:

    Using tor without encryption is more dangerous the un-encrypted content of your websites than *ANYTHING* else, unless you don't care if anyone in the middle can read everything you send and receive, but not know who you are based on the content. Even without admitting the practical malicious nature of node operators, it's less secure because you're bouncing plaintext over more nodes with more opportunities to intercept and read or edit.

    Using it without an SSL observatory with a fixed key is probably also substantially dangerous, but I am not personally aware of such attacks having been catalogued in the wild (over TOR -- they have happened over the web as a whole).

    If you disagree with any of this you either:
    1) Don't understand TOR and how it works.
    2) Quite possibly do correctly understand how browser based https/tls security works, but don't actually understand the modern threat/capability landscape and realize that one of the key points of trust is utterly compromised.
    3) Are more paranoid than even me. Good for you --please explain your objection.

  37. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by fermion · · Score: 2
    And for many people that may be a fair tradeoff. In an environment of free Wireless, commercial ISPs are going to have to compete even harder to gain customers. This means, as now, some ISPs are going to have even more censorship, and some are going to have less. You are free to buy as you wish, or not. Free wireless will certainly result in faster speeds for everyone who pays, as it has in Kansas City, and more choices in censorship and monitoring.

    So yes, for once you will get what you pay for. No longer can a service say they give you 10mb/s, and then only deliver 1. In an environment where there are free choices, even monitors censored choices, lying about speed will result in significant loss of customers

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  38. Stock in Skype by canadiannomad · · Score: 1

    Microsoft is pushing hard for this one.... Might just save their business.

    --
    Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
    1. Re:Stock in Skype by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is pushing hard for this one.... Might just save their business.

      We need this because only Skype can save us from having to use XMPP? Justaskin'.

      --
      Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    2. Re:Stock in Skype by canadiannomad · · Score: 1

      Might be why google is pushing it too... I just thought of Skype immediately because it is what everyone I know uses for business. (Much as I would prefer the open protocol.)

      --
      Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
  39. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Comcast it is.

    I don't think you know what tax means.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  40. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

    I didnt suggest in any way that I was more sane than anyone else. I asked why all those capable of understanding that "free" != "paid for by taxes" (no matter how many mental gymnastics you're willing to go through to say otherwise), arent even bothering to point the simple truth of it out anymore.
    It takes a pretty solid application of denial to come to any other conclusion. But what angers me is that what appears to be the majority of Americans dont even try anymore. They see "free" and say, "Hey! Great! I'm so glad I am so well cared for!" instead of actually thinking the whole thing through. Is it laziness? Intellectual dishonesty? Or do people actually believe that these services will continue to magically materialize without someone cutting the damn check for it?

    --
    "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
  41. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1
    --

    I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

  42. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

    Sounds more like you just want plan A with a different provider. Plan B involves actually changing the conditions that put you where you are, which you apparently arent in favor of since you are in favor of this "free" public wifi shit.

    --
    "His name was James Damore."
  43. CopyRight by jraff2 · · Score: 1

    What would happen when the CopyRight police; MPAA, RIAA and Book Associations find material being downloaded? How does the provider find the offender and who gets the 3, 6 strikes?

  44. Can Anyone Link to the Actual Proposal? by careysub · · Score: 1

    As far as I can tell the only information available on this is what Cecilia Kang at the Washington Post says about it. Absolutely everything else seems to be simply a rewrite of her article. Given the track record of any popular media reporting on technical issues it is hard to tell for sure what the proposal actually entails.

    This being a non-classified Government proposal circulating freely among businesses, it should be readily available to the public somewhere.

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
  45. And of course by DaveJ45 · · Score: 1

    It also means the government wouldn't need to subpoena records of your internet activity from a third party, since they would already have it.....

    --
    Differences between how you act when some one is watching, and how you act when no one is watching, define who you are
  46. Then every car needs a black box . . . . by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

    . . . and every phone must have GPS enabled (for safety of course), so that someone can know where everyone is all the time (for safety and rescue), and how fast they are moving at any given moment (to make sure the roads are safe, and incidentally charge you for road usage). And maybe we'll chip all of the children like we now chip pets, so we can always identify them and return them to their parents. Think of the children!

  47. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by chihowa · · Score: 1

    It's not encrypted from the exit node (How could it be? This is where the Tor network interfaces with the normal internet.).

    Tor does have an advantage in that exit nodes are usually chosen somewhat at random and are switched often. You would get hours of someone's traffic at an unsecured wifi hotspot. As a Tor exit node, you would get a few minutes each of a thousand different people.

    --
    If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
  48. how is this different from other utilities by Chirs · · Score: 1

    I live up in Canada. My car insurance, electrical power, natural gas, water, and waste treatment are all provided as government-owned (that is to say, owned by *me*) utilies. Our rates are lower than the private rates in nearby provinces.

    I'm currently charged exorbitant amounts of money for internet access by a private ISP (the local cable company). I would *love* for the city to take over last-mile Internet connectivity, and then a bunch of independent ISPs could offer different packages for upstream connectivity. As it stands you have two choices for Internet access, the phone company or the cable company.

    1. Re:how is this different from other utilities by jimmy_dean · · Score: 1

      I live up in Canada. My car insurance, electrical power, natural gas, water, and waste treatment are all provided as government-owned (that is to say, owned by *me*) utilies. Our rates are lower than the private rates in nearby provinces.

      I'm currently charged exorbitant amounts of money for internet access by a private ISP (the local cable company). I would *love* for the city to take over last-mile Internet connectivity, and then a bunch of independent ISPs could offer different packages for upstream connectivity. As it stands you have two choices for Internet access, the phone company or the cable company.

      The "low" rate is what you might be billed by "your" utilities, but what are the true prices of such service? Could such utilities survive without the local government subsidizing them with tax money? So if you took away the tax money, you'd better believe the price would be higher directly to you. Second, if government-owned things are such a silver bullet, why not nationalize everything. Then you would completely control everything! If you think that's absurd, then how would you propose what should be nationalized (or owned by local governments) and what should be private? How can you truly know how efficient and effective your government agencies are? There's really no such thing.

      --
      -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
    2. Re:how is this different from other utilities by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      What is the function of an ISP in such a model? Wouldn't they simply be a hub connecting users to the Internet at large?

      I think the function of the ISP as a supplier of email services is pretty much dead. Certainly, the ISP as a provider of local content is dead. The ISP running a "portal" is dead.

      My ISP provides a connection, and that is it. They do not provide search services, local weather, indexing of web sites, or anything else. They are certainly being bullied by content providers to add equipment to provide local caching of high value content and removing that would be a boon to everyone.

      The ISP today is also the one maintaining the physical plant, be it DSL links or the cable TV/Internet system. If the "last mile" is taken over by some state, county or local government they are going to have to either take that on or pay someone to do it. Every ISP that I have ever encountered that outsourced maintenance of the physical plant to someone else failed spectacularly - because the maintenance company didn't care a hoot about customer service to customers that were not theirs. The brief history of "open" DSL connectivity where the ILEC was providing the wires and someone else was the ISP shows this clearly - the ILEC did not maintain the lines, partly because in most areas the regulated fees for access didn't pay enough for the ILEC to do any maintenance.

      Do you think your municipality could or should take on a new engineering department to maintain the "last mile" connections?

      How about customer service? You know, the folks that when you call tell you to unplug the modem and plug it back in. Outsourced or brought into a municipality?

      How long before such an arrangement results in the State Bureau of Internet Connections because waste and duplication in every municipality makes it an easy target for some state representative?

    3. Re:how is this different from other utilities by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I'm in Canada too, though a different province. Hydro, auto-insurance and the liqueur stores all bring in lots of money for the government. At that it's starting to be a problem as the government has cut taxes back too far and now they're trying to replace that revenue by doing things like raise hydro rates.
      The problem is that private organizations give huge campaign contributions to push privatization, the government itself is pretty right wing and seems to believe that private is always better so the phone company, the gas company and almost the liqueur stores have been sold off. Also selling assets to quickly balance the budget in an election year seems to be a favorite.
      The liqueur stores are one example. Private and public pay the same wholesale by law yet the private stores charge about 20% more, pay their workers close to 50% less and only exist in profitable markets. They do have better hours and often fancier stores. The public liqueur stores put 100's of million dollars into the treasury and supports money losing stores in bumfuck nowhere with their profitable stores.
      Since the phone company was privatized, my phone bill has gone from $20 to $45, dial-up is $35 and after the last storm 6 weeks ago, my connection speed has dropped from a fairly consistent 28.8 to between 7200 and 19.2. Try using the internet at 7200 baud. Voice is also almost unusable due to the static. Their attitude is that as long as 911 works, they're not going to spend money splicing the line back together properly.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  49. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

    Anything passed the exit node is not part of Tor. I have observed the exit node to change sometimes with every click.

    --

    I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

  50. why change it? by Chirs · · Score: 1

    It's a convenient way for people to register for blocks of time, and to make sure that people aren't hogging the computers.

    1. Re:why change it? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      And track the inevitable pervs. There is certainly no right to anonymous free government computers.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  51. Re:Logical by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    No, that's not going to work. This is American politics we're dealing with.

    Every special interest with lobbyists will step in with demands. The RIAA and MPAA will obviously want all pirate sites blocked, that hardly needs stating. But then the anti-gambling pressure groups will follow. The 'for the children' people will start demanding sites providing suicide advice or promoting anorexia be blocked. And as for the porn, it won't be the .xxx domain that's blocked: Before the network is even running, the very powerful social conservative faction will have put all their considerable might into making sure that all porn is blocked within the limits of technological capability. These are all things that one faction or another has been trying to have banned with mixed success for years or decades - dating back at least to the old Comstock laws that made it a criminal offense to send obscene material through the US postal service. Politically, it's very hard to ban these on privately run networks, but very easy to do so on a government-run network. The advantage politically shifts. That's before you even get into the heavy bandwidth-reduction methods that would be needed to keep costs down.

  52. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by theskipper · · Score: 1

    Or put it this way; we don't know what Plan B should be, but the benchmark for measuring its success is pretty simple. Whatever it takes to be able to tell AT&T, Time Warner, Windstream, etc. to go fuck themselves sideways and really mean it. Like we do when selecting a supermarket. Real competition (municipal broadband included) without pricing collusion would allow that.

    The implementation is left as an exercise for the reader.

  53. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

    You must be a member of Congress. Because those are the only people I can possibly imagine wwho would actually suggest that as a legitimate definition of "free" without busting out laughing mid-sentance.

    Why would you suggest roads are free? Same as libraries, or traffic lights, or police. They are NOT FREE, and I've never heard anyone use the word free to describe them. They are built by government (local/state/fed) and used by all, but no one ever says they are free. They all cost money, and ultimately that money all comes from the pockets of the citizens. Only the dishonest, the dillusional or the ignorant would say anything less.

    Maybe your philosophy is exactly why we're as fucked as we are. Either you're willing to lie, or willing to spin a bunch of BS that makes it sound like the taxpayer isnt actually putting out any of their income to make these "free" things possible.

    --
    "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
  54. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    From entry node to exit node, but not from exit node to destination.

  55. Wont happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    1 - The carriers wont allow it.
    2 - Federal government will never support something that you cant track.

  56. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by blueg3 · · Score: 1

    This may sound silly...

    It does sound silly, because people on a public wi-fi hotspot rarely care what sites you're going to, which is the only thing Tor effectively hides. Sure, it also encrypts data locally, so the people on your same hotspot can't steal credentials, session cookies, or data. It just doesn't encrypt the traffic coming out of the Tor exit node, where you are almost guaranteed that someone is snooping for credentials, session cookies, and data. You've just turned a bad situation into a worse one.

    The correct solution is to use HTTPS. Always on public Internet access points, use HTTPS.

  57. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

    I will repeat myself: All things not a part of Tor are not a part of Tor.

    --

    I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

  58. Re:Make it really available, Geostationary by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    Easy. Instead of using microwave transmissions, just use lasers. 300 million tiny lasers on a satellite to follow and track each receiver. Well, maybe more like 1200 million - your car, your phone, your MP3 player and your home computer. Might as well just go for 2 billion of them, just to have a little extra capacity.

    Of course these would have to be more than a couple of watts each to punch through the clouds and such.

    Now that I would like to see... a satellite with an output of maybe 20 gigawatts.

  59. Please explain by mu51c10rd · · Score: 1

    I do want Congress to pass a law banning cable franchises by local and state governments.

    I do want laws specifically enabling municipal internet utilities, especially on this new bandwidth.

    Aren't those two items mutually exclusive? Most of the "municipal internet utilities" would end up using coax cable, just like Time Warner/Comcast/Cablevision/etc.

    1. Re:Please explain by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Why exactly is that an issue? We already have all sorts of cases where the service and the media are provided separately.

  60. To be paid for with what, exactly? by kenh · · Score: 1

    The FCC proposes buying BACK spectrum? That will cost money, lots of it.

    Who exactly will build out this nation-wide network of WiFi accesspoints and backbone infrastructure on brand-new spectrum incompatible with current WiFi cards?

    Who, exactly, will decide what will and will not be accessible on this network?

    Who, exactly, will decide the build-out schedule, which areas get served first? WHich don't get served (think 1%ers)?

    Who, exaclty, will retain their own contracted ISP service once this free "nation-wide" WiFi network is available?

    Who, exactly, will decide the speed of the access available?

    And please, define "nationwide" - I know what that word means to me, but do you really mean WiFi Internet service in remote corners of national parks?

    This is a proposal that should have been floated in the silly-season of the Presidential election last year, where it would be viewed as the pie-in-the-sky dream it truely is.

    --
    Ken
  61. Re:Make it really available, Geostationary by kenh · · Score: 1

    I'm sure there'd be no problem "working" a satelitte connection from inside a building - your XM Radio and GPS work fine in parking garages, don't they?

    --
    Ken
  62. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by kenh · · Score: 1

    No, they have it all figured out - what they'll do is add a surcharge to every ISP account to underwrite the national infrastructure, then, as subscribers drop their paid ISP accounts to instead use the free WiFi service, the Gov't will simply raise the fee on those that remain on paid ISP accounts. Eventually only the top 1%ers will have their own ISP accounts, and they will subsidise the entire Free WiFi infrastructure for the other 99% of America from their vast resources.

    WHat, why wouldn't that work? Eventually the 1%ers will foot the bill for everything!

    --
    Ken
  63. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by White+Flame · · Score: 1

    First thing I'd do is automatically set a random MAC address on every connection.

  64. Clearing this up: it's WiFi on TV frequencies by Catbeller · · Score: 1

    I approve. Hell, it's one of my pet ideas. Simple! Take a bit of TV frequency, and let people use it for wifi, just as they do now. Except that it goes through walls. Buildings. Neighborhoods. Set up the ol' mesh network idea with a frequency band that actually works, and you have ISP independence. The bandwidth of a TV channel is huge, so streaming video might even work on a shared network such as this. If we ever lick the "interference" problem, which is a software limitation, not a physical one, we could transform the world. No hyperbole. Add encryption, and the old internet is back, baby.

  65. Re:Make it really available, Geostationary by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    I'd own it and have them all aim at you.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  66. This is Feb 4th not April 1st by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Somebody's clock was messed up.

    This is way too good to believe that anybody in the US federal government would suggest such a brilliant idea.

    They shouldn't have done HD TV the way they did. It should have been setup around a broadcasted packet network over a really wide band. Initially, it could be handled as they did, with auctions for bandwidth. But we'd have the infrastructure ready to go for the future.

    Going digital should have included the division of the airwaves - instead we have an analog split of frequencies severely limiting use of a limited PUBLIC resource to a few monopolies.

  67. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    So what you're saying is if my destination is a Tor exit node, then I don't need to worry about encryption, but if my destination is my bank, I should still worry about encryption. Thanks for clearing that up.

  68. Government cannot do it by atgaaa · · Score: 1

    For years I have watched U.S. cities, small and large try to set up one wireless internet system after another, they have never made it work.

  69. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    Tor without encryption just tells MORE people what you are doing.

    It's more precise to say that it tells MORE people what SOMEONE is doing, although precisely who is very difficult to determine provided that certain precautions are observed (not logging into your POP3 mail server using an unencrypted channel routed through TOR, as the Iranian diplomats did, comes to mind). The point after all is to disguise the origin, content and return destination of unencrypted traffic while it's traversing the TOR circuit , not what was actually sent to or requested from a destination on the public Internet. Exit nodes can and probably do sniff or log traffic exiting onto the public Internet and going back over the TOR circuit. However, the origin or final destination of that traffic remains obscure to the Exit node itself provided that traffic itself doesn't inherently suggest it's own destination, as in the aforementioned unencrypted POP3 login example. Although it's true that there have been some published attacks on the TOR network, none to my knowledge have been shown to be either practical or complete and all of them were easily thwarted by more nodes, more users and more traffic which increases the number of possible end to end paths and imposes prohibitive costs on those trying to corner the market in available intermediate nodes. Of course, many things are possible given enough time, money and effort so it's still best to avoid pissing off first world nations using the TOR network, as Mr. Assange is now acutely aware.

  70. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    If you just downloaded it -- you almost certainly leak flash, DNS, and java.

    Which is why it's best to use a TOR bundle, with leaky plugins absent and a portable browser settings preset to proper defaults, instead of trying to retrofit an existing browser installation.

    Even without admitting the practical malicious nature of node operators, it's less secure because you're bouncing plaintext over more nodes with more opportunities to intercept and read or edit.

    But only at the exit nodes, unless the intermediate "hop" nodes on the circuit are also in cahoots (possible, but unlikely). It was my understanding that the plaintext was only visible at the exit nodes, the TOR circuit itself remains encrypted so that intermediate nodes cannot decrypt the contents of the traffic intended for downstream destinations. That is after all the entire point of TOR.

  71. Great for places like Cass County in Texas by wganz · · Score: 1

    where the local government only allows cell towers to be built if they're part of a company controlled by a local judge.

  72. That's not his finger by JohnRoss1968 · · Score: 1

    Ewwww how lonely can you be.

  73. Re:"Free? I do not think this word means ... by mkultra66 · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't Nancy (government in general) love to get their testi... er tentacles on the internet. What better way to better control content?

  74. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

    Not really, because the exit noted rotate regularly, so after a few seconds some OTHER exit node would be seeing the data.

  75. Re:Comes with Free SOPA/CISPA Style monitoring too by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    So instead of just one "bad guy" snooping one exit node (and other bad guys between there and the destination), you have the potential for more people seeing some data in the clear.

    Yes, you should still worry about encryption. Tor isn't magic pixie dust for your packets.

  76. The linked story is a myth by Michael_SD · · Score: 1

    I would like to point out that the Washington Post story is a complete myth. Sorry to all those having wet dreams about free net access. See ArsTechnica: arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/wi-fi-as-free-as-air-the-totally-false-story-that-refuses-to-die/