Where Can You Find an Electric Vehicle Charging Network? Estonia

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Where Can You Find an Electric Vehicle Charging Network? Estonia

Posted by timothy on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @05:24AM from the can't-get-there-from-here-by-electric-car dept.

MatthewVD writes "How hard can it be to find an electric car charger? So hard that New York Times reporter David Broder had to drive in circles and drain his Tesla's battery. Charging infrastructure has been ultimate chicken or egg problem for electric cars adoption but finally, there's a good test case. In Estonia, drivers need to travel only 37 miles to reach a CHAdeMO quick charger. There are 165 of the direct current plug-in chargers, that can charge a car's lithium battery in 30 minutes for an average cost of $3.25. The question now is, will the electric vehicles follow?"

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Nice! by cyrano.mac · 2013-03-19 05:26 · Score: 1

And it's only a thousand kilometers to Estonia!
1. Re:Nice! by MightyYar · 2013-03-19 05:30 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  "It's 1000 kilometers to Estonia. We've got a full charge, half a packet of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses... Hit it."
  
  --
  W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
2. Re:Nice! by Dexter+Herbivore · 2013-03-19 05:40 · Score: 2
  
  We're on a mission from God!
3. Re:Nice! by fnj · 2013-03-19 05:43 · Score: 2
  
  You drive. You drive. I think there's something wrong with me.
  -- Dr. Gonzo
4. Re:Nice! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:45 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  I told some Estonian fellows that they’re slow.
  “What did they reply?”
  “Nothing, but they beat me up the following day. “
5. Re:Nice! by Synerg1y · 2013-03-19 06:05 · Score: 1
  
  and when you get there... 30 miles to get "fuel", no big deal, will get right on it after work.
all of Estonia, huh? by Trepidity · 2013-03-19 05:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

That's almost as big as West Virginia!

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
1. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by aliquis · 2013-03-19 05:37 · Score: 2
  
  That's almost as big as West Virginia!
  There's also less people and lower GDP per capita.
  https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/en.html
  Population: 1,274,709 (July 2012 est.)
  GDP - per capita: $21,200 (2012 est.)
2. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 05:47 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  FEWER people, and they have electronic everything, schools, taxes, public offices and public information is public. Oh and they have way lower poverty rate than the US of A. And incarceration, but hey, EVERYONE has.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
3. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by hedwards · 2013-03-19 05:56 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  You're saying a former Soviet block nation which is about the size of West Virginia has newer things than the US? Of course they do, most of the Soviet crap was garbage and it's really easy to get new stuff if the old stuff isn't still viable for use. Just buying the average or below average gear would do it. It's a lot tougher to justify getting a lot of that stuff if the stuff you have is working fine.
  As for electronic everything, is that really desirable? We have most of that stuff available over the internet here as well, it's just not all that it's cracked up to be.
  What's more, you're ignoring the fact that things like this don't scale very well. Look at China, as an example, the government is reforming their educational system, but it's probably going to take 40 years or more for it to really take effect as they have about 1/3 of the teachers and schools necessary to get the job done. What's more, you're talking about a country which has about half as many students as the US has total people.
  I know it's really popular to bad mouth the US, but try and exercise at least some common sense, will you. Managing a tiny country like Estonia is several orders of magnitude easier than managing one the size of the US and managing the US is considerably easier than managing one the size of India or China.
4. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Lumpy · 2013-03-19 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  Actually it's easy to upgrade your infrastructure when the leaders are interested in LEADING instead of lining their own pockets. Like US government officials.
  
  --
  Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
5. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:10 · Score: 1
  
  They have less poverty, less crime, less people in jail... I'll get modded down but compare their demographics to the US. Notice anything?
6. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:11 · Score: 0
  
  That's a different issue. But, you're full of shit if you think that things like this scale in a linear fashion.
7. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Charliemopps · 2013-03-19 06:29 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  The difference is that Estonian Officials are cheaper... so the Green movement could afford them.
8. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by networkBoy · 2013-03-19 06:30 · Score: 1
  
  They have a higher ratio of Estonians to USians?
  heh.
  
  --
  whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
9. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 06:31 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  That's almost as big as West Virginia!
  But 14 times the size of Rhode Island! More to the point, Estonia is many times bigger than many of our major metropolitan areas (including the surrounding suburbs), and with a population of 1.3M it has fewer people than many of them too. In the US electric car infrastructure should be concentrated in metropolitan areas.
  Despite Tesla's desire to show their cars and the current infrastructure are suitable for interstate travel, most people are going to be interested in them for commuting and travel within their area. Even the quick charge stations are a lot slower than filling your car with gas. The "perfect time for a meal break" won't cut it if you're trying to make serious time. Most electric cars will probably be bought by people who can afford more than one car, or by somebody who's spouse/partner/[future-politically-correct-reference] has a conventional car (I'm seriously considering doing that when my car dies, which will be before my wife's). Ergo a charging infrastructure within a metropolitan area should be fine.I you're on I-80 in the middle of Wyoming, use petroleum distillates.
  Rental cars might be a good market too. When I fly somewhere on business and rent a car, I rarely take it that far. Most few day business trips could easily be handled by a single charge. Maybe companies could call themselves green because they require their employees to rent electric cars.
  Lastly government could play a role here (yes, I'm an evil statist). All those white strippo cars with "official government use only" signs could probably be electric, since they rarely make long trips. Best of all: those little local postal delivery trucks with the right-hand drive are a perfect candidate. They typically drive three doors down, stop the engine, deliver mail to a few houses, and start up again. I'd be surprised if the starters last more than six months. They also travel a short and well defined route every day.
10. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by gl4ss · 2013-03-19 06:38 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  I think he was upselling estonia a bit.
  let me tell you what estonia really is. it's the finnish mexico. no offence estonians but you know it's true. finns go there for cheap booze and they come over here as cheap labor. average income in estonia isn't that hot really.. and I don't know where he got that usa has higher poverty rate - they don't. as such this is kinda big deal for estonia, but this is far from the effort it would take to do the same thing for lapland.
  (average pay in 2012 was 823 euros / month. I think they got the poverty line drawn a bit differently than USA)
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
11. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by SpaceMonkies · 2013-03-19 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  They are a little country that does a lot of things right, and lead the way in technology in many ways. I think it's great that they do this, and they deserve credit accordingly. However to say that this would scale to other countries of larger size is fairly disingenuous. Places like the United States are much, much larger and a comparison between the two is effectively meaningless. Submitter also fails to mention that the NY times journalist was looking for a charging station that was poorly lit at night time. The journalist had his failings in his story, however it's intellectually dishonest to say that he was trying to run down the battery while looking for a recharging station for a moment.
12. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-19 06:46 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  They have less poverty, less crime, less people in jail... I'll get modded down but compare their demographics to the US. Notice anything?
  You mean, aside the attempted fallacy of equivocation?
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
13. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by CastrTroy · 2013-03-19 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  The problem with poverty rate is that "poverty" is relative to other people in the country. You can't compare poverty rates in 2 different countries. Somebody who's in poverty in the US may not be in poverty in Estonia if they made the same amount of money. Somebody who only makes $10,000 a year would be considered living in poverty in the US, but in some other countries you could live quite well off that.
  
  --
  
  Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
14. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ACS+Solver · 2013-03-19 07:10 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  As a Latvian, I have to say I respect what Estonians have done. They've managed to be the leaders or pioneers in certain things like electric vehicles or electronic voting. Nice social stability there and Estonians are generally doing well. Yes, the average income of ~800 EUR doesn't look too good by most Western country standards, but they're doing the best out of all ex-Soviet countries. Already in Eurozone, and fastest growing EU economy. With their small population and little in terms of natural resources, that is impressive.
15. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:17 · Score: 0
  
  Of course they would. Things are more expensive in the US than a lot of places, so the use has a higher $ for the poverty line
16. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ByOhTek · 2013-03-19 07:19 · Score: 1
  
  That's, I think the point of comparing poverty rates rather income.
  How much you get for income isn't as important is what resources it can provide you with. What the relative incomes describe is how much room the countries have to rise or fall.
  
  --
  Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
17. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by MightyYar · 2013-03-19 07:20 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I don't want "leaders", I want "public servants". There are occasions when we need leaders, but these tend to be during a crises of some sort. People who fancy themselves to be leaders is what gets us to the state we are in.
  
  --
  W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
18. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by TheSpoom · 2013-03-19 07:21 · Score: 1
  
  Ergo a charging infrastructure within a metropolitan area should be fine. If you're on I-80 in the middle of Wyoming, use petroleum distillates.
  Why not get rid of the gas stations entirely and just have these charge ports in parking lots and driveways? I can't imagine they take as much space as, say, an underground gas tank. Stick a credit card reader on them for payment, and you're golden.
  (Yes, I know this won't happen overnight, but I think this is a more realistic vision.)
  
  --
  It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
  - E. Debs
19. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by TsuruchiBrian · 2013-03-19 07:22 · Score: 1
  
  There is no unethical treatment of elephants in Estonia.
20. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Gordonjcp · 2013-03-19 07:35 · Score: 1
  
  Because if you have them in everyone's driveway, you have to upgrade your electricity distribution pretty drastically.
  That electricity doesn't just magically appear...
21. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 07:37 · Score: 1
  
  I like it, but I don't think it's an either/or kind of thing. Why not both? I take charging at home as a given. I can imagine workplaces having some parking spot/"slow" charge stations, especially if they can toot themselves as green or something. But what if all the spots are taken, or you switch jobs to someplace that doesn't have them, or you forgot to charge at home last night, or just wound up driving a lot further than you usually do and don't want to get stuck? I think they'll always be a need for some fast charge stations.
22. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  To play devil's advocate, I can think of one other problem w/ charging stations at work. You want to minimize electricity consumption during peak demand, which is usually daytime w/ heavy AC use, or perhaps early evening. Ergo charging at home is better, but you still want a backup in case you forget to charge or need to drive much further than usual on some day. Hence the need for fast charge stations.
23. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:44 · Score: 0
  
  Zoning.
24. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 07:48 · Score: 2
  
  and I don't know where he got that usa has higher poverty rate - they don't
  Maybe, maybe not. According to some, what I said isn't without merit.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
25. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  You're aiming at your own foot, dude.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
26. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 07:52 · Score: 0
  
  No niggers? No, seriously, what are you trying to imply?
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
27. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 08:05 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  It's a lot tougher to justify getting a lot of that stuff if the stuff you have is working fine.
  Efficiency. The US don't care.
  
  As for electronic everything, is that really desirable?
  Fewer bureauc-rats.
  
  We have most of that stuff available over the internet here as well, it's just not all that it's cracked up to be.
  You're holding it wrong.
  
  What's more, you're ignoring the fact that things like this don't scale very well
  Yes, they do.
  
  Look at China, as an example, the government is
  corrupt and bureaucraticised, so
  
  reforming their educational system, is probably going to take upwards from 40 years or more for it to really take effect as they have about 1/3 of the teachers and schools necessary to get the job done.
  That's the point - to make them useful, but unnecessary.
  
  What's more, you're talking about a country which has about half as many students as the US has total people.
  So what? They have more students even relatively. Better ones too.
  
  I know it's really popular to bad mouth the US, but try and exercise at least some common sense, will you.
  It's not that it's popular. It's reasonable, justified and constructive.
  
  Managing a tiny country like Estonia is several orders of magnitude easier than managing one the size of the US.
  Especially when attempts are actually made. And it's easier when it's augmented by electronics. That's my point, dimwit. Do you know what the US have made all-electronic? Remote war crime.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
28. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  I know it's really popular to bad mouth the US, but try and exercise at least some common sense, will you.
  And one more thing, shithead.. Look upwards from my post, at what those USAn chauvinists wrote first. Then FOAD.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
29. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by SydShamino · 2013-03-19 08:14 · Score: 1
  
  My company installed two slow charging stations in our parking garage last year. They are the kind that can text you when your car is charged, and you are required to go move your car to let someone else use them. (Presumably the requirement is enforced by you losing your job.)
  
  --
  It doesn't hurt to be nice.
30. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Capt.DrumkenBum · 2013-03-19 08:17 · Score: 1
  
  Why not put the chargers on parking meters.
  Everywhere I go in the downtown core there are parking meters. Put a power port on them, and charge a little more and you can charge while you park. A nice little money maker for the city I would think.
  
  --
  If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
31. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 08:18 · Score: 0
  
  Cool you're using the same argument that telcos make against broadband distribution.
  You're just SO knowledgeable about the world!
  Faggot.
32. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 08:24 · Score: 2
  
  Because if you have them in everyone's driveway, you have to upgrade your electricity distribution pretty drastically.
  Not if you mostly charge when people are asleep, when electricity demand is otherwise lowest. And "mostly" is all you need, as you're talking about averages. Average commuting distance in the US is only 32 miles round trip. Charging a Tesla Model S for that range requires 9kWh of AC. That's 1kW over a 9 hour period, or 4.2% of the peak capacity of a house with very modest electrical service (100A).
33. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by stymy · 2013-03-19 08:31 · Score: 2
  
  Average income doesn't matter. What matters is what you can buy there with that income. I don't know much about how things are in Estonia, but I can tell you that in Bolivia you can get a live-in maid for under $100 a month, and so forth. So there, you can live like a king for what would be a very low wage in most of Europe or North America. It sounds like it's similar in Estonia.
34. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Telvin_3d · 2013-03-19 08:33 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, but charging stations are effectively unnecessary in the city. The car holds enough charge for any amount of city driving and then gets plugged in at night.
  Charging stations are only a factor on long trips. Purely urban use will rarely see any charging while on the go.
35. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by LordLimecat · 2013-03-19 09:06 · Score: 1
  
  You do realize that "size" is the wrong word, as technically the "size" of the US is greater than that of China (and certainly greater than India).
  The US is the third largest country in the world, in fact-- 9.8 million square kilometers, vs China's 9.7 and India's 3.2. Only Canada and Russia are bigger.
36. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by fat_mike · 2013-03-19 09:41 · Score: 1
  
  And how is all that electricity generated?
  Oil and coal my friend, oil and coal.
  For those of you who don't understand why America hasn't adopted electric cars...its a big damn country. For those of you who wonder why electric cars haven't taken over in large metropolitan areas...Google how many gas stations there are in downtown New York or Los Angeles or Chicago (answer is very few) and imagine how expensive it will be to transform such expensive real estate to charging stations. Then imagine just how those charging station will be powered.
  Oil and coal my friend, oil and coal.
37. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Luckyo · 2013-03-19 09:44 · Score: 1
  
  They do have a lower poverty rate. This has to do with cheaper prices in Estonia coupled with better social support network.
  (I'm a finn too).
  Also worth noting that electricity they're selling us is mostly produced in Soviet era power plants burning shale rock, through we've installed some new ones as well. We also financed the grid upgrades necessary for it.
  Also worth noting that their harbour and the reason why St. Petersburg has to ship so much stuff through Finnish harbours is because Soviet Union planned the harbour that would supply St. Petersburg to be built in Tallinn. When USSR broke down, access to that harbour was denied while Estonia ended up with one of the most advanced harbours in the basin.
38. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Gordonjcp · 2013-03-19 10:15 · Score: 1
  
  So at night, when all the really heavy electrical loads (heating, washing machines) are on? Yeah, that'll work just fine...
39. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 11:05 · Score: 1
  
  It would help if you looked at the facts instead of guessing: http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=830
40. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 11:15 · Score: 1
  
  But you'll still want some charging stations for people who forgot or couldn't charge their car the previous night, or find that on some particular day they have to do a lot more driving than usual. Otherwise they'll (rightly) fear getting stranded whenever things don't go exactly according to plan.
41. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by hairyfish · 2013-03-19 12:33 · Score: 1
  
  I know it's really popular to bad mouth the US, but try and exercise at least some common sense, will you. Managing a tiny country like Estonia is several orders of magnitude easier than managing one the size of the US and managing the US is considerably easier than managing one the size of India or China.
  I may be stating the obvious here, but it sounds like the solution is to break up the US into smaller more manageable chunks?
42. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by AvitarX · 2013-03-19 12:39 · Score: 1
  
  You don't necessarily need the fast charge in a driveway, just a slow charge.
  Also, I can speak from recent experience the daily (non-economy) parking at Dulles airport does just this. There are 6 or so reserved spaces, and on average 3 of them are occupied when i go there.
  
  --
  Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
43. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Lumpy · 2013-03-19 12:51 · Score: 1
  
  Amen Brother! The other problem is that most of them are servants, just not to the general public....
  
  --
  Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
44. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 13:56 · Score: 0
  
  You still have to define what poverty is. And most definitions are based on... income.
45. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by AmiMoJo · 2013-03-19 13:59 · Score: 1
  
  300 miles of range covers a lot of local driving.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
46. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by AmiMoJo · 2013-03-19 14:08 · Score: 1
  
  Which is why they are building this kind of infrastructure. They want to become leaders and provide technology and expertise to other countries, as well as appearing modern and shaking off this image.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
47. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by aliquis · 2013-03-19 14:29 · Score: 1
  
  I don't see the difference. I don't get why size matters.
  The reason China is after is of course because they has been poorer and less educated before.
  On the other hand China may do changes more drastically than the US since they can skip the democracy step and just do what the fuck they want to do (though of course there will likely be different voices within the party.)
48. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by aliquis · 2013-03-19 14:32 · Score: 1
  
  Even your first link mention different countries measure it differently.
  It could for instance be how much salary/income you have compared to the average in the country.
49. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 14:38 · Score: 0
  
  lol / aliquis
50. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by angel'o'sphere · 2013-03-19 15:54 · Score: 1
  
  Estonia is a first world country, and West Virginia is a third world country, perhaps at the edge of becomming a secon world country.
  Rhat explains more than your brin dead stupid ranting.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
51. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 19:56 · Score: 1
  
  imagine how expensive it will be to transform such expensive real estate to charging stations
  Not very expensive. A few outlets and a storage for express battery exchange.
  
  Oil and coal my friend, oil and coal.
  Yeah, too bad they can't burn idiots, such as parent.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
52. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-20 00:44 · Score: 0
  
  What's a "West Virginia"? Some kind of burger? I Thought Estonia is a little bigger than that...
53. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by gl4ss · 2013-03-20 00:52 · Score: 1
  
  Average income doesn't matter. What matters is what you can buy there with that income. I don't know much about how things are in Estonia, but I can tell you that in Bolivia you can get a live-in maid for under $100 a month, and so forth. So there, you can live like a king for what would be a very low wage in most of Europe or North America. It sounds like it's similar in Estonia.
  ..you are aware that being able to get a maid for $100 a month depends on average income being very friggin low? you can get home help in estonia for couple of hundred per month(remember average pay for _working_ folk being just over 800 euros! on the other side of the gulf it's ~2600+).
  so sure, it does matter.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
54. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by gl4ss · 2013-03-20 01:42 · Score: 1
  
  estonia is more homogenous, but more of them would be under poverty rate in usa. just check average salaries.
  what I was replying to about was upselling the place as some bryssels of the baltic sea which it certainly ain't.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
55. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-20 02:36 · Score: 1
  
  more of them would be under poverty rate in usa
  That 'would' is irrelevant. There's an important reason poverty levels are relative. Ant that's exactly to avoid idiotic arguments such as yours.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
56. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by ByOhTek · 2013-03-20 02:37 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, the value given is income, it's based on what you can procure with that income vs. what is needed for a healthy subsistence with a reasonable amount of effort.
  
  --
  Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
57. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-20 02:39 · Score: 1
  
  what I was replying to about was upselling the place as some bryssels of the baltic sea which it certainly ain't.
  After over 50 years of constant robbery they are doing magnificently. Compared to unhindered "development" in the USA. Seriously, the US are going backwards. Your political elite is dumber than a European high school dropout.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
58. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Gordonjcp · 2013-03-20 03:49 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know where you are, but over here everyone runs their heavy electrical loads in the home at night...
59. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by fatphil · 2013-03-20 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  > estonia is more homogenous, but more of them would be under poverty rate in usa. just check average salaries.
  
  But remember to divide by the cost of living. I can get a train to the opposite side of the country (180km) for only 10e, what would that be in equivalently-sized West Virginia? We may not have a huge amount of dough to flash around in foreign countries, but we can live fairly comfortably due to the low cost of living (you can happily eat for 2e/day, for example). And for those who live in Tallinn, things have just got even cheaper still, as all public transport is now free (with no increase in taxes).
  
  Sure, that tells you nothing about the rich, but the rich are an unimportant sliver, it tells you about the masses, and that's what should matter.
  
  Becoming richer on the world scene will be associated with massive inflation. Prices for a pint have already gone up by a factor of 20 in the last 20 years - nobody's going to want a further doubling.
  
  --
  Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
60. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by fatphil · 2013-03-20 04:55 · Score: 1
  
  I forgot to mention our social healthcare system. A neighbour who spends about half of her time in the US and half in Tallinn says that she has spent over 10 times as much on dental checkups and work in the US (Cali) as she spends here.
  
  --
  Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
61. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by TheSpoom · 2013-03-20 05:43 · Score: 1
  
  "I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
  
  --
  It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
  - E. Debs
62. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-20 05:54 · Score: 0
  
  Public transport is free only for those who have registered themselves into the city and who have the Tallinn-issued public transport card that must also be tied to the ID-card. All this grossly discriminates against people who don't want to be tracked and everyone else who are not registered residents of the city. These people have to pay 1.60€ for just one fare, or 1.10€ per fare if they have the city-issued public transport card, to which money must be electronically transferred.
  
  The "free" public transport scheme is run in Tallinn governed by the obviously leftist Russia-friendly Center party, which through various other actions and incations has earned very deep mistrust amongst nearly all Estonians, but which is voted in by resident Russians, because people who have been Estonian residents for at least five years can vote in municipal elections, but not anything above that, such as the Parliament. So, imagine Tallinn as the Blagojevich-run Chicago^10, or something like that. If Tallinn were run by any other party that's in the Parliament, then Estonia would rise to better places in the corruption index published by Transparency International.
  
  Dental healthcare is all privatized and there is no state support, AFAIK, so that's just a difference in price (though it's free to young people who are not legally adults yet, along with some other exceptions). Quality may also vary, but I think the best places are up there with first-rate dental clinics in the U.S. In some cases, these very good clinics are even closer to home, which is quite an advantage :-D. The bad side is that care can be terribly expensive even to those who earn an average wage, and impossible to attain for those who earn very little or nothing at all. Only that now dental care is less painful and much less fearsome :-)
63. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-20 06:04 · Score: 0
  
  It's not a matter of being cheaper, but a matter of energy independence.
  
  Mitsubishi wanted to buy a large number of quotas and I think under the scheme's rules, the buyer had the right to decide what to do with the money they paid. It may be a form of horse-trading, but our negotiators were really awesome, too :-)
64. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by Cederic · 2013-03-20 06:32 · Score: 1
  
  Wait, there's an electric car with a real-world 300 mile range?
  I'm still struggling with the idea of a 15 mile detour to wait 30 minutes before you can keep driving.
  This technology is not yet sensibly viable.
65. Re:all of Estonia, huh? by SydShamino · 2013-03-27 18:00 · Score: 1
  
  Not that anyone will ever read this, but my company just added like 15 more stations to the garage. There's a whole row dedicated to recharging now. I wish it wasn't on the first floor...
  
  --
  It doesn't hurt to be nice.
s/David/John/ by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:29 · Score: 2, Informative

David Broder was the White House correspondent for the Washington Post for many decades, who passed away a couple years ago. When I read the summary I thought, that can't be the same guy who got into a pissing match with Elon Musk!
1. Re:s/David/John/ by Phreakiture · 2013-03-20 00:44 · Score: 1
  
  Yes. Two fails for the price of one. It makes me wish I could mod the story down.
  
  --
  www.wavefront-av.com
The Netherlands by Dexter+Herbivore · 2013-03-19 05:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

I just recently got back from the Netherlands and it amazed me how seriously they take charging points, they were everywhere. Along with high rise bicycle parks. I suppose when your country is mostly below sea level you take global warming and conservation as a proven fact. Simple countrywide risk management I suppose.
1. Re:The Netherlands by RaceProUK · 2013-03-19 05:52 · Score: 1
  
  Dude you are wacked, WTF does global warming have to do with fucking ELEVATION?
  Everything, when you're below mean sea level.
  
  --
  No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
2. Re:The Netherlands by hedwards · 2013-03-19 05:59 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  A considerable portion of the Netherlands is below sea level. And because of the way that the laws of physics work, you can't just make the dikes taller, you have to ultimately replace them with ones that are stronger at the bottom as well, otherwise you start getting cracks. And I doubt the EU would be too fond of having numerous children skipping school to plug the holes with their fingers.
3. Re:The Netherlands by PopeRatzo · 2013-03-19 06:07 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Dude you are wacked, WTF does global warming have to do with fucking ELEVATION?
  A future Secretary of Energy, fresh from CPAC.
  
  --
  You are welcome on my lawn.
4. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:19 · Score: 0
  
  Dude, it's gonna start any day now. Any day!
5. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:19 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  You couldn't be more wrong, the Netherlands is one of the least "green" powered countries in the EU. There is almost no stimulus to go green, instead we just import nuclear energy from surrounding countries and are building a couple of coal powered energy plants.
6. Re:The Netherlands by Charliemopps · 2013-03-19 06:48 · Score: 1
  
  The might be concerned about global warming... or... more likely... The Netherlands has had one of the largest oilfields in the world for decades. So large in fact that for much of the past several decades the Netherlands has had very low gas prices. But that oil field is now dwindling. They will have to start importing gas soon. On top of that, their entry into the European union meant that there is now a 19% VAT tax on top of any local taxes that are already on the gas. It's estimated that 65% of the price of gas in the Netherlands is now taxes. The end result is the current price of Gas in the Netherlands is the highest in the world at over $9/gallon, and it will continue to climb as their oil fields become more depleted.
  So... concern for Global warming? Or concern for their pocketbook... you be the judge. If gas were $9/gallon here I'm fairly sure you'd see charging stations popping up all over the place. Keep in mind those charging stations are being powered by coal fired power plants... so this idea that you're saving the environments a little laughable.
7. Re:The Netherlands by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-19 06:49 · Score: 1
  
  And because of the way that the laws of physics work, you can't just make the dikes taller....
  Right, because if you do that, they all move to the US and join the WNBA.
  I'll be here all week, ladies and germs! Don't forget to tip your waitress!
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
8. Re:The Netherlands by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-19 06:51 · Score: 1, Offtopic
  
  Got to give some credit to this AC - most of the 10-year-olds I know can't put down the Xbox controller long enough to read Slashdot, let alone actually bang out a post.
  The profanity is spot on, though. Reminds me of those Halo 2 sessions from back in the day.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
9. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:59 · Score: 0
  
  Thou cockered, beef-witted puttock!
10. Re:The Netherlands by FridayBob · 2013-03-19 07:00 · Score: 2
  
  It just so happens that I live in the Netherlands, but I'm not impressed with the availability of charging points. At least, not in my municipality. Things may be better in Amsterdam. There is an NPO, called "e-laad" (e-charge), that was set up by the power companies to install charging points all over the Netherlands (also on request), but then their budget dried up. Which is strange, because if there is a demand, why is there no more supply? This makes it tempting to conclude that the power companies want to look like they're paying the concept more than lip service, but are not really that enthusiastic. On the other hand, it's not like I know a lot of people who can't wait to get their hands on an electric care either; they're still a relatively rare sight. Nevertheless, I look forward to receiving my Lit C-1; with a range of 200 miles or more, I doubt that I'll be making much use of public charging points.
11. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:12 · Score: 0
  
  "On top of that, their entry into the European union meant that there is now a 19% VAT tax on top of any local taxes that are already on the gas. It's estimated that 65% of the price of gas in the Netherlands is now taxes. The end result is the current price of Gas in the Netherlands is the highest in the world at over $9/gallon, and it will continue to climb as their oil fields become more depleted."
  You are wrong on many counts, but this just doesn't make any sense. If it is due to EU why are the surrounding countries (all EU members) cheaper? The price is high because of local levies and a high VAT (21%) over the total price (including levies). Fuel is a simple way for the gov. to get money. As far as gas (not gasoline) prices are concerned, since there was a huge gas (not oil) field high crude oil prices were beneficial to the gov. since that mend:
  -higher tax income on local consumption
  -higher sales price to foreign countries.
  The high crude oil prices mend that old oil fields are suddenly cost effective again. So oil fields closed in the 199Xs are reopened, but the Netherlands always has been a netto importer of oil.
12. Re:The Netherlands by sosume · 2013-03-19 07:21 · Score: 2
  
  There are TWO charging points per electric car in the Netherlands. And people are NOT intrerested in driving them. Talking about wasting resources, taxpayers money and free parking spaces .. Everyone I'm talking to, who's interested in real solutions for the environment is waiting for a H2 powered car. Nothing less.
13. Re:The Netherlands by sosume · 2013-03-19 07:27 · Score: 0
  
  Dude, there are already *two* charging points per unique electric car. Paid for with taxpayer money. Nobody buys battery powered electric cars because they are heavy, unreliable, and are economically written off after only 5 years.Please shove that extra charging point up your behind.
14. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:45 · Score: 0
  
  The debate is over how much will the seas rise and how that extra water will be distributed, but the seas is rising, all that extra water from the ice has to go somewhere. And the air can't suspend that much water indefinitely.
15. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:52 · Score: 0
  
  Even if the electric car is using electricity generated from a coal-fired power station, it is still saving the environment:
  a) CO2 generation (and other emissions) is local to the power station so emission control can be made efficient on an industrial scale eg. more efficient than individual petrol engines. Power stations are not usually located where people live.
  b) the electric car produces no local emissions so is ideal for town and city use. Diesel and petrol engines cause local emissions as well as C02 and that is harmful to health.
16. Re:The Netherlands by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 08:25 · Score: 0
  
  OK, so you'll be happy when the entire population of Bangladesh pitches up on your lawn?
  The food would certainly be an improvement on McDonald's but I'd imagine it would be a bit of a culture shock both ways.
17. Re: The Netherlands by Rogerborg · 2013-03-19 09:24 · Score: 1
  
  You can make clean and efficient coal plants, but nobody actually does it. Perhaps you're thinking of some theoretical plants 40 years from now.
  
  --
  If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
18. Re:The Netherlands by inglorion_on_the_net · 2013-03-19 11:21 · Score: 1
  
  I wish I had points to mod you up.
  The environment has been a talking point in the Netherlands for as long as I can remember (back to the 1980s), but if you look at what actual policies are in place, it really isn't that good. To be sure, it's not the worst, but if they really wanted to do a good job, they could easily copy some policies that are successful in Germany - and they don't. My conclusion is that they're just paying lip service and not actually taking things very seriously.
  
  --
  Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
19. Re:The Netherlands by inglorion_on_the_net · 2013-03-19 11:53 · Score: 1
  
  The might be concerned about global warming... or... more likely... The Netherlands has had one of the largest oilfields in the world for decades.
  I suspect you mean gas, not oil.
  
  So large in fact that for much of the past several decades the Netherlands has had very low gas prices.
  Natural gas, maybe. Gasoline, definitely not. Last I checked, the Netherlands was tied with Denmark for most expensive gasoline in the world.
  
  On top of that, their entry into the European union meant that there is now a 19% VAT tax
  The Netherlands was one of the founding members of the EU, so there isn't much "entry" to it. Also, the VAT is still under the control of the member states, as far as I know. I also believe the Netherlands recently raised the VAT from 19% to 21%.
  
  It's estimated that 65% of the price of gas in the Netherlands is now taxes. The end result is the current price of Gas in the Netherlands is the highest in the world at over $9/gallon, and it will continue to climb as their oil fields become more depleted.
  65% sounds roughly right for gasoline. Highest in the world sounds about right, too. But it doesn't have much to do with depletion of oil fields; it's really the taxes.
  
  So... concern for Global warming? Or concern for their pocketbook... you be the judge.
  Funny thing is, I lived in the Netherlands until about a year and a half ago, and I haven't really heard much talk of people switching to other power sources because of the high prices. I predicted that people would be switching to electric cars for cost reasons before 2015, but I don't really see that happening yet. That said, a lot of people drive Diesel cars, Diesel being somewhat cheaper than gasoline for the same distance driven (taxes on Diesel are lower in the Netherlands). Plus, the Netherlands doesn't have a culture of driving like some other countries; a lot of people ride bikes and/or use public transportation.
  
  If gas were $9/gallon here I'm fairly sure you'd see charging stations popping up all over the place.
  Maybe. Somebody has to pay for that. I live in the San Francisco bay area now, and a lot of companies here install charge points for use by employees and/or customers. That's with gasoline being about half the price that it is in the Netherlands. I think it's really more a matter of will than a matter of gasoline prices.
  Electric cars and chare points are also kind of a chicken and egg proposition; I can understand why there wouldn't be a lot of will to install charge points if virtually nobody has a vehicle to use them with. As more affordable electric cars hit the market, there should be more demand for charge points.
  
  Keep in mind those charging stations are being powered by coal fired power plants... so this idea that you're saving the environments a little laughable.
  That one has been disproven so many times it's getting a bit long in the tooth. First of all, electricity isn't purely generated from coal. In the Netherlands, there are several providers of electricity purely from renewable sources, the big ones being biomass and wind. Since you get to choose your provider, the charge points may actually be powered by 100% renewable energy.
  Secondly, comparing energy at the source to energy actually used to drive the wheels, electric cars are so much more efficient than gasoline cars that even if the electricity is almost all produced by burning coal, you can still end up saving on CO_2 emissions. See e.g. http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#electricity for some data points.
  
  --
  Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
20. Re:The Netherlands by FridayBob · 2013-03-19 12:41 · Score: 1
  
  ... there are already *two* charging points per unique electric car. ...
  Maybe, but then there must be a lot of charging points in relatively inconvenient places. Also in that case why would e-laad be having to tell people that they no longer have the budget to put down any more?
  
  ... Paid for with taxpayer money. ...
  Really? Stichting e-laad was set up by the power companies themselves. They say their budget dried up, but make no mention of subsidies. Even if the municipalities or the Dutch government were subsidizing a certain percentage of each charging point, it doesn't look like that's the reason why e-laad stopped rolling them out. If that were the case, then surely they would have said so. But even if you're right, there are worse things that the government can spend taxpayer money on (like bailing out crooked bankers).
  
  ... Nobody buys battery powered electric cars...
  You overgeneralize. Just because you don't know anyone who wants one doesn't mean nobody does. The Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs states that, as of August 2012, there were 1,686 completely electric cars driving around on Dutch roads. That's not nobody, but you could be right about the number of charging points. However, according to an estimate last year the Dutch Automobile Association (ANWB) expects that there will be 200,000 electric vehicles driving in the Netherlands by 2020.
  
  ... because they are heavy, unreliable, and are economically written off after only 5 years.
  Heavy, yes (but getting lighter), unreliable, no. Nissan expects its batteries to retain 70% to 80% of their capacity after a decade of use and guarantees them for five. Chevrolet guarantee the Volt's batteries for eight years. That doesn't sound so bad to me. Other vehicle manufacturers offer similar values, because many of them buy their batteries from the same battery manufacturers.
  IMO all of the plug-in battery electric cars currently available are either impractical due to their limited range, or too expensive (such as the Tesla Model S), or both. Yet, for myself I would still prefer a vehicle with batteries to one powered by hydrogen for a number of reasons.
  First of all, read this article: 5 Concerns About Electric-Car Batteries. Its not long and addresses reliability, supply, the environment, recycling and actual carbon emissions.
  Personally, I love the idea of being able to charge up my vehicle at home on green energy (even if it's just a little more green) for the lowest price possible. That will free me from my gasoline addiction, which I've come to hate not only because burning fossil fuel is bad for the environment, but also because it means paying regular visits to gas stations, always being dependent on a foreign product that sucks a tremendous amount of money out of the local economy, paying a ridiculous price for gasoline (at around $9.00 a gallon, gas prices in the Netherlands are the absolute highest in the world), and always paying more for my gasoline every year.
  Regarding hydrogen, it looks like this technology has more drawbacks than advantages. Li-Ion batteries may be expensive, but hydrogen fuel cells make them look very affordable. Some companies have been promising much lower prices, but talk is cheap and any such units have yet to materialize. In the mean time, there are already battery electric vehicles on the road and more money is being spent every day to make those batteries lighter and more powerful. Moreover, I can only imagine paying
21. Re:The Netherlands by AvitarX · 2013-03-19 12:46 · Score: 1
  
  Nuclear energy is green.
  
  --
  Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
22. Re:The Netherlands by rubycodez · 2013-03-19 14:59 · Score: 1
  
  how strange, here in the USA most dykes I know would rather be fingered in the crack than the hole
23. Re:The Netherlands by AmiMoJo · 2013-03-19 18:08 · Score: 1
  
  Chicken and egg. Obviously at first there will be low demand for charging points, but now people feel more confident buying electric cars tthat will change in a few years. These things take time.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
24. Re:The Netherlands by ameen.ross · 2013-03-19 22:18 · Score: 1
  
  Well it's certainly green enough to turn you green when the going get tough.
  Seriously though, nuclear vs conventional energy is like aeroplanes vs cars IMO. Yes, the risk of an accident in a plane is relatively low, but when an accident does happen, you'd rather be in a crashing car...
  As for charging points, there should be over 2000 in the town I live, but I really wouldn't know where the heck they are, as I've never seen one. Not that I'd be looking for them (I look for gasoline), but still.
  
  --
  $(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
25. Re:The Netherlands by ameen.ross · 2013-03-19 22:43 · Score: 1
  
  Good post.
  One thing I'd like to point out is that car owners pay an extra tax depending on the weight and power source of the car. Diesel cars are much more expensive. For example, a car of 1500kg costs ~€75 a month for gasoline and ~€140 a month for diesel. Insurance is also typically more expensive for diesel cars.
  For diesel cars to be cheaper overall, you have to drive at least a certain distance a month. I'd say that number is at least 1000km depending on the car.
  The cheapest option AFAIK is natural gas. The fuel cost per km driven is probably cheaper than diesel, and the recurring tax is also lower. And you can basically buy a cheap gasoline car second hand and convert it to gas, which lots of people do.
  In fact, most public transportation buses are now gas based, with a large fuel tank on the top. There it is: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haagse_bus
  
  --
  $(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
26. Re:The Netherlands by sosume · 2013-03-20 02:56 · Score: 1
  
  I am still convinced that battery powered cars are not economically viable, and from an environmental point of view, your average electric car contributes more to global pollution before its even driven a single mile than a generic truck. (due to for instance all the needed platina and rare earth metals) This makes the government sponsoring charging stations (tax breaks and grants) look silly at the least.
  The only responsible, proven and truly sustainable energy forms are nuclear and hydrogen. Everything else is just short term thinking, while creating a huge mess for future generations. What are our grand children going to do with all the wind mills we now place? These too are highly toxic. With nuclear, at least we know it's dangerous and handle it appropriately.
27. Re:The Netherlands by FridayBob · 2013-03-20 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  I am still convinced that battery powered cars are not economically viable, and from an environmental point of view, your average electric car contributes more to global pollution before its even driven a single mile than a generic truck. (due to for instance all the needed platina and rare earth metals) This makes the government sponsoring charging stations (tax breaks and grants) look silly at the least.
  It looks like you didn't read the article that I linked for you. From TFA:
  
  ... As for toxicity, there's nothing in a high-voltage lithium battery that you'd want to spread on an English muffin. That said, the ingredient list isn't sounding alarm bells among experts, assuming that manufacturers and recyclers follow the rules of production and disposal. Linda Gaines of the Argonne National Laboratory says: "We have not identified any significant environmental impacts from battery production. The worst one is sulfur dioxide from the smelting of cobalt, nickel and copper, which are tightly controlled, at least in the U.S."
  
  Cesiel says, "They're not toxic batteries." But even if the chemicals themselves pose no threat, they are still extracted from the earth at a cost. Lithium, copper, manganese and ingredients for next-generation battery technologies all rely on mining or similar processes, which can be ecologically harmful, especially if done in countries with lax environmental laws. ...
  
  The only responsible, proven and truly sustainable energy forms are nuclear and hydrogen. Everything else is just short term thinking, while creating a huge mess for future generations. What are our grand children going to do with all the wind mills we now place? These too are highly toxic. ...
  Mining is probably never good for the environment, but if it's regulated well enough I don't think that manufacturing a wind turbine from scratch is any worse than making one of those Li-ion batteries (which, apparently, is not so bad either). As for the wind turbines themselves, surely you're not suggesting that they themselves are toxic?
  
  ... With nuclear, at least we know it's dangerous and handle it appropriately.
  I was up in the air about nuclear for a long time, but there are many downsides to it as well. First, uranium mining is dangerous and, even as mining operations go, environmentally very unfriendly. Second, it's very, very expensive to build a nuclear reactor and it takes a long time to do so. Third, you'll have the nuclear waste to take care of. Fourth, the reactor will have to be dismantled at the end of its life, which means dealing with a whole lot of highly radioactive material. Fifth, there's always the possibility of a nuclear accident. Sixth, uranium can also be used for the purpose of making weapons. Seventh, most countries with nuclear reactors are also still dependent on expensive foreign imports (of uranium). Eighth, are you really willing to trust corporations with all these risks when all they're really interested in is profit? Oh, and don't forget that there is a pro-nuclear lobby that spends lots of money on propaganda to play down all of the drawbacks involved.
28. Re:The Netherlands by inglorion_on_the_net · 2013-03-20 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  The cheapest option AFAIK is natural gas. The fuel cost per km driven is probably cheaper than diesel, and the recurring tax is also lower. And you can basically buy a cheap gasoline car second hand and convert it to gas, which lots of people do.
  Natural gas or LPG? Asking because I'm curious.
  
  --
  Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
29. Re:The Netherlands by ameen.ross · 2013-03-20 21:06 · Score: 1
  
  Sorry - yes, LPG
  
  --
  $(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
30. Re:The Netherlands by ameen.ross · 2013-03-20 21:48 · Score: 1
  
  As it turns out, the buses run on natural gas, not LPG though. Both are cheap, I guess natural gas is cheaper but less accessible to consumers.
  
  --
  $(echo cm0gLXJmIC8= | base64 --decode)
You Don't Get Out Much by Wovel · 2013-03-19 05:31 · Score: 4, Informative

The Broder story was BS. It has been pretty soundly refuted from Tesla and other reporters. I guess the people approving these stories don't actually read slashdot...
1. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:46 · Score: 0
  
  It sounded tongue-in-cheek to me.
2. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:58 · Score: 0
  
  David Broder had to drive in circles to avoid a charging station. Had he driven in a straight line, he certainly would have passed one.
  But yes, it is another nearly incomprehensible summary on Slashdot. Oh look, it's Timmy!
3. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:59 · Score: 0
  
  The fact that he mentioned that Broder had to drive in circles in order to drain the battery should have been the clue that finding a charging station was actually quite easy for Broder.
4. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by hedwards · 2013-03-19 06:00 · Score: 0
  
  Um, no it hasn't, have you actually been reading the news? Tesla put up a lot of lovely charts that contradict their own version of events. And like with the Top Gear nontroversy, ultimately, they're tilting at windmills. I mean, WTF Tesla, if my car won't go because one of the brakes has seized up, I don't give a damn if it's a fuse problem or a brake problem, I would call that a brake problem either way.
5. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:26 · Score: 0
  
  except the "driving in circles" trying to find the officia Tesla Supercharger station, which was the point of the article.
  The real truth in the story is that average idiot had an experience that reflects how average idiot drives. Having met him, he's not bright enough to a) go to college to get a degree in something that pays above minimum wage, b) tie his fucking shoes, or c) make that shit up. What the hell the lady in grey was thinking when they hired him is beyond me; he really is a pretty good example of average idiot.
6. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:44 · Score: 0
  
  You forgot to condemn Microsoft in your post of pointing out flaws in a sacred company of Slashdot. If you're going to say anything ill of Linux (in general, Slashdot supports distro-wars), Raspberry Pi, Google (unless prefaced with "it's sad how far the company has fallen"), electric cars (even if it's my stance that this model is an insult to the memory of Nikola Tesla), or Valve you MUST preceed it with a paragraph explaining your hatred of Microsoft, Apple, the United States of America, Republicans, people who take the republic governing style in Civilization, Electronic Arts (the company), Blizzard's slow release schedule, and/or anonymous cowards posting to Slashdot.
  I just realized how much I hate writing long lists.
7. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-19 07:00 · Score: 2
  
  The Broder story was BS. It has been pretty soundly refuted from Tesla and other reporters. I guess the people approving these stories don't actually read slashdot...
  Since you've obviously picked a side here, you probably won't be interested in this update from Jalopnik:
  
  A source who has seen the data logs explains how it's possible how Broder and Musk could both be truthful but sort of wrong. The high-voltage battery in the pack, allegedly, had enough power to move the car a much greater distance than needed to move the car onto a flatbed, maybe as far as five miles, but the 12V battery that powers the accessories and gets its juice from the high voltage battery shut down when Broder pulled into the service station.
  When Broder decided to turn the car off, which was a mistake, the parking brake (operated by the 12V battery) was rendered unusable. If Broder was told not to turn the car off, it's his mistake. If Tesla told him to do it, or didn't inform him he shouldn't do it, then it's their mistake.
  
  If anybody sold you a $100,000 sports car, then told you the only way to keep the brakes from locking is to leave it running, unattended, you'd probably write a shitty review yourself.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
8. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-19 07:03 · Score: 1
  
  Also, in both those situations, Tesla engineers had to be consulted. Easy enough for a NYT auto reporter or UK car show hosts, but what about the regular Joe's that they're selling these things to?
  If you're not rich and/or famous, and your Tesla breaks down on the roadside in Mobile, AL... what would you think the chances are of Tesla flying an engineer out ASAP to update your firmware?
  My guess would be anywhere between "slim" and "none."
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
9. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by hedwards · 2013-03-19 07:58 · Score: 1
  
  According to Tesla's own figures, that driving in circles at the charging station was about 5 minutes, or roughly one circuit around the complex, something which somebody unfamiliar with the location could reasonably wind up doing. And if you took a look at the map of the charging stations, the one of the other side that he had used previously, was not layed out the way that the one he was lost in was.
10. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by BradleyUffner · 2013-03-19 08:33 · Score: 1
  
  Also, in both those situations, Tesla engineers had to be consulted. Easy enough for a NYT auto reporter or UK car show hosts, but what about the regular Joe's that they're selling these things to?
  I think the average Joe would be perfectly capable of looking at the dashboard telling him the car is charged to a range of 30km and then not trying to drive it 60km. If you really need to a call an engineer to figure that out then you probably shouldn't be driving.
11. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by hedwards · 2013-03-19 14:31 · Score: 1
  
  The battery gauge has known limitations when the batteries are cold and registering less range than what there really is. Or at least that's what Tesla's own techs told him and this is consistent with batteries of this type in general. Plus, ultimately, the car had plenty of charge left to drive a few more miles, it's just that the parking brake was connected to the 12v battery which had died.
  I'm not sure how your average Joe would handle that other than being pissed about Tesla's incompetence.
12. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by AmiMoJo · 2013-03-19 18:13 · Score: 2
  
  That's one small detail that matters little in light of the fact that Broder lied about so many other more important things. He really tried hard to make that car fail. Really hard.
  Lots of other people have made the same trip with plenty of range to spare. Even accounting for temperature variations and traffic Broder's story has been proven to be bullshit.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
13. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 22:32 · Score: 0
  
  If Microsoft built cars, it'd be worse!
14. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-20 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  The fact that Tesla had to fly an engineer out to fix it makes it not a "small detail."
  To that end, let me ask you something: If you, as a regular Joe, owned a Tesla, and it broke down on the side of the highway just outside BFE because of a software issue - is Tesla going to fly an engineer out to you post-haste in order to fix it? Or are they going to leave your ass stranded?
  
  Broder's story has been proven to be bullshit.
  I take that to mean you didn't read the Jalopnik update in my previous post? You should - turns out, both Broder and Musk are, to a certain degree, full of shit.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
15. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by rpstrong · 2013-03-20 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  Check out the review in the current (April) issue of Road & Track. Their test car had a (non-standard) top speed cap of 80 mph (presumably for 'average' reviewers). They called the Tesla hotline (available to all Tesla owners) and explained the problem to an actual person. She said she'd enter their bug into their system, with an 'urgent' flag. The vehicle software was updated within ten minutes.
  And so, no, they wouldn't fly out an engineer to update your firmware. They'd do it remotely.
16. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by rpstrong · 2013-03-20 05:33 · Score: 1
  
  OK, I just re-read (or at least scanned) the original NYT article. Where did it say that Tesla flew an engineer out to fix it? From what I read, the only on-site assistance came from a tow truck driver - the only contact with Tesla was via phone.
17. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-20 07:40 · Score: 1
  
  Also, in both those situations, Tesla engineers had to be consulted. Easy enough for a NYT auto reporter or UK car show hosts, but what about the regular Joe's that they're selling these things to?
  I think the average Joe would be perfectly capable of looking at the dashboard telling him the car is charged to a range of 30km and then not trying to drive it 60km. If you really need to a call an engineer to figure that out then you probably shouldn't be driving.
  That didn't happen in either instance, nor did I ever say it did.
  I was referring to the facts that, in both occurances, "minor issues" completely disabled the cars until a Tesla engineer showed up to update the car's firmware. I was also pointing out that if the driver is not a famous car presenter/reviewer, they will most likely not be given the same level of service.
  So, instead of being a smart-mouthed apologist, maybe you should pull your head out of Elon Musks ass and actually look at the facts. The final decision in the Top Gear legal case would be a good place to start.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
18. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-20 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure how your average Joe would handle that other than being pissed about Tesla's incompetence.
  I'm still curious how a normal, non-auto-reviewer type person would get those issues, the ones that require an automotive engineer to touch the machine, resolved. Is Tesla going to ship an engineer with every car they sell?
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
19. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-20 09:25 · Score: 1
  
  I was actually referring to the Top Gear incident, in which it took 2 engineers an hour or so and a firmware update to get the car back on the road after the brake fuse failed. Shoulda clarified that, mea culpa.
  Still - when was the last time you had to call a Chevy engineer because your Malibu wouldn't start? And would they bother to answer?
  Point being, so long as Tesla remains a niche market provider of cars for wanna-be Greenies with more money than sense, I suppose the 'engineer-on-speed-dial' requirement isn't that big a deal... but, if they really want to play with the Big Boys - GM, Daimler, Renault, et al - they're going to have to figure something else out.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
20. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by BradleyUffner · 2013-03-20 13:26 · Score: 1
  
  That didn't happen in either instance, nor did I ever say it did.
  I was referring to the facts that, in both occurances, "minor issues" completely disabled the cars until a Tesla engineer showed up to update the car's firmware. I was also pointing out that if the driver is not a famous car presenter/reviewer, they will most likely not be given the same level of service.
  So, instead of being a smart-mouthed apologist, maybe you should pull your head out of Elon Musks ass and actually look at the facts. The final decision in the Top Gear legal case would be a good place to start.
  It most certainly did happen. The car told him it could go X miles. He tried to drive it X + Y miles. That is what directly led to the failure of the battery powering the parking brake and other "accessory" systems.
  I'm not being an apologist for anyone here. Personally I think this type of electric car will probably fail, but I'm not going to let my personall feelings override the actual facts in order to get a cheep shot in. He actually admitted that the car said it could go fewer miles than he tried to drive it, then wrote a bad review about how it left him sitting. If someone tried to do that with a standard car he would be laughed out of the review industry.
  Sure, the Tessla support people gave him bad information, but that isn't what he complained about in the review. And like you said, a normal person won't even have access to that level of support. The only information they will have to go on is what the dashboard tells them, if they don't listen to that then it's their own fault, not the car's.
21. Re:You Don't Get Out Much by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-21 04:36 · Score: 1
  
  Their test car had a (non-standard) top speed cap of 80 mph (presumably for 'average' reviewers). They called the Tesla hotline (available to all Tesla owners) and explained the problem to an actual person.
  Well sure, as a niche company that has a sales volume of less than 5,500 units a year they can totally do that.
  I question what the response will be if/when Tesla ever manages to scale up to the production levels of "real" auto manufacturers, e.g. Ford, Daimler, etc.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Early adopters always have a hard time... by celticryan · 2013-03-19 05:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

Seems like this is something technology always deals with - cars and roads OR cell phones and cell towers - early adopters always have difficulties. How is this surprising?
1. Re:Early adopters always have a hard time... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:48 · Score: 0
  
  Seems like this is something technology always deals with - cars and roads OR cell phones and cell towers - early adopters always have difficulties. How is this surprising?
  It is apparently surprising to some people. Almost every article about electric vehicles have tons of comments from people how say that it will never take off.
  I suspect it is the same kind of people that can't imagine a solution to a chicken/egg problem.
2. Re:Early adopters always have a hard time... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:04 · Score: 0
  
  The problem nowadays is that nobody takes chances. It's not like there was a dozen companies manufacturing locomotives before the tracks were laid.
  Companies these days have absolutely zero view of the long term, nor do they want to. Does it mean profit for the next 3 months? Do it! No profit? Screw that idea, and you're fired for bringing it up.
  The only company that comes to mind that really goes out on a limb with new(ish) ideas is Nintendo, batting around all kinds of unusual control systems or games that extraordinarily few other gaming companies would have even thought of, let alone put money behind. A few indie developers maybe, but nobody that would throw millions behind untested ideas.
  I'm sure I'll be shot down horribly for the previous paragraph, but that's my perspective, and what came to mind.
  But I digress. Electric cars will take decades yet to really take off, since user adoption will be horrendously slow, since infrastructure will be horrendously slow to come, which will be horrendously slow because it costs money without an absolute guarantee of record profits absolutely immediately afterwards. It all comes down to those who build the infrastructure, and if they will take a risk. They will not, nor will they ever in our lifetimes.
3. Re:Early adopters always have a hard time... by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-19 07:07 · Score: 1
  
  Seems like this is something technology always deals with - cars and roads OR cell phones and cell towers - early adopters always have difficulties. How is this surprising?
  It is apparently surprising to some people. Almost every article about electric vehicles have tons of comments from people how say that it will never take off.
  Yea, I mean, it's not like they've been trying to make a successful electric car for neigh over 100 years or anything...
  What I find funny is, the problem with today's electrics are the exact same problems with the electrics from my Great-Grandpa's era - battery tech sucks.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Standards by virgnarus · 2013-03-19 05:32 · Score: 2

So, is that an average cost of $3.25 per gallon of amps? Or $3.25 per litre of voltage?
1. Re:Standards by nedlohs · 2013-03-19 05:41 · Score: 1
  
  per however many kilowatts are used in an average 30 minute charge.
2. Re:Standards by jeffmeden · 2013-03-19 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  per however many kilowatts are used in an average 30 minute charge.
  facepalm. You mean kilowatt-hours. Or, you can call them joules, or calories, or maybe even BTUs. come on, read a wikipedia article already.
3. Re:Standards by Forty+Two+Tenfold · 2013-03-19 05:48 · Score: 1
  
  That's kilowatthours.
  
  --
  Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
4. Re:Standards by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · 2013-03-19 05:52 · Score: 2
  
  No, Its not 3.25 per Kilowatt hour. They paid 3.25 for the half hour. The amount of charge transferred is not known. It could be 3.25 per kilowatt hour, but there is not enough information to state that.
  
  --
  Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
5. Re:Standards by nedlohs · 2013-03-19 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  Yes I do, though that's harldy going to motivate me to read a wikipedia article.
6. Re:Standards by hawguy · 2013-03-19 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  per however many kilowatts are used in an average 30 minute charge.
  facepalm. You mean kilowatt-hours. Or, you can call them joules, or calories, or maybe even BTUs. come on, read a wikipedia article already.
  In his defense, he did say "killowatts in 30 minutes", so if the power draw is constant, it's an easy conversion to KWh.
7. Re:Standards by CrimsonAvenger · 2013-03-19 06:20 · Score: 2
  
  So, is that an average cost of $3.25 per gallon of amps? Or $3.25 per litre of voltage?
  $3.25 for ~30 KWh (charging rate for these things is about 65 KW).
  So, 330 of the things in Estonia, they each support one vehicle at a time...~8000 EV's per day supported by the entire network, assuming that every one of them is being used 24/7?
  Hmm, wonder how far your average EV goes on 30 KWh....
  
  --
  
  "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
8. Re:Standards by jeffmeden · 2013-03-19 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  No, Its not 3.25 per Kilowatt hour. They paid 3.25 for the half hour. The amount of charge transferred is not known. It could be 3.25 per kilowatt hour, but there is not enough information to state that.
  You are right that there is not enough info (never said there was) but it is the right question to ask, since you can't "use" a kilowatt and for utility billing purposes, a half-hour guesstimate isn't going to fly.
9. Re:Standards by networkBoy · 2013-03-19 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  How about hogsheads of electrons? Not sure exactly how many joules that is, but it's quite a few as long as you can keep them in the damn container.
  Though I would imagine that it is many KWh that transfer in 30 min.
  
  --
  whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
10. Re:Standards by The+Wannabe+King · 2013-03-19 07:22 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  So, is that an average cost of $3.25 per gallon of amps? Or $3.25 per litre of voltage?
  $3.25 for ~30 KWh (charging rate for these things is about 65 KW).
  
  So, 330 of the things in Estonia, they each support one vehicle at a time...~8000 EV's per day supported by the entire network, assuming that every one of them is being used 24/7?
  
  Hmm, wonder how far your average EV goes on 30 KWh....
  You seem to lack experience with electric vehicles, so let me enlighten you. I have driven a Leaf 12 000 miles the last year and know a thing or two:
  
  Most EV owners will use these stations very rarely. Charging is usually done at night or at work when the vehicle is parked anyway. Any ordinary electrical outlet will supply enough energy in 8 hours for a lot of driving. Assuming 230V/10A 8 hours will give 230*10*8*0.9 ~= 16 kWh of energy (90 % charging efficiency) This is enough for at least 80 km, possibly more than 100 km, depending on roads and driving style. Most places, at least in my country, 16A is available most places which would add 60 % to the above figures.
  
  Quick charging is only ever used if you want to go much farther than usual, which should happen rarely. Few people will buy an EV if the daily commute cannot be done on a single charge, possibly charging in both ends. Luckily, most people commute much shorter than the range of current EVs and with this quick charger network, they can cover longer distances when needed, albeit spending some time charging. Thus this network can service a lot more than 8000 cars. It will be interesting to see if this will result in mass adoption of EVs in Estonia. The infrastructure is certainly there, but I fear EVs are still a tad too expensive for a population that isn't too rich generally.
11. Re:Standards by MightyYar · 2013-03-19 07:42 · Score: 2
  
  You can still gauge an upper limit to the expense, though. It can't cost more than $3.25 to go 37 miles - $0.09 per mile is the max cost here. The same trip would cost you about $0.13, assuming a gas price of $4/gallon and a sedan getting 30MPG. So even if we assume the worst, it's like driving a car that gets 45MPG.
  
  --
  W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
12. Re:Standards by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 13:29 · Score: 0
  
  > wonder how far your average EV goes on 30 KWh
  Approximately 150 miles. The Leaf will go ~73 miles on 16 kwh and the Volt will go ~38 on 10.5 kwh. (Both cars actually have larger batteries but they don't fully charge or discharge them to increase battery life)
13. Re:Standards by martrootamm · 2013-03-20 04:52 · Score: 1
  
  An electric set-up that has been standard for home use is not very good for charging an electric vehicle, because recently here in Estonia one man's small barn (or shed) completely burned down along with his electric car parked there. Firemen suspected that the cables couldn't handle the amount of power that was constantly passing through when charging overnight and then something probably overheated and caught fire. Therefore, specialized home charging equipment must also be set up (not particularly cheap, AFAIK).
  
  For those not in the know, the quick chargers that were built around Estonia will in those 30 minutes refill the batteries to approximately 80 to up to 90% of total capacity (90% is probably a stretch, but say 85%).
  
  In 2012, the electricity was about second-or-third-cheapest in the European Union, but the country recently opened up its electricity market, after which Eesti Energia (the main electricity provider) delivered a hefty price hike to all those who did not in time choose a predetermined power plan or the energy exchange (bourse) package or another provider. And yes, the government did warn well in advance of all that. Nevertheless, customers — including those hit with the initial price hike — can change providers/plans once each month.
  
  Estonia also offers a subsidy for the first 500 private buyers of any electric car, including those not from Mitsubishi (with which the CO2 trade was made). The subsidy covers either half the buying price of the car or up to 18,000 € of it (AFAIK). People, though, are worried about how long a car can hold a charge during winter (still down to –20C at night in March), and how reliable it is on rural roads where there might be no asphalt or just gravel roads, sometimes none at all.
  
  Electricity in Estonia is generated from burning oil shale, which is the country's main non-renewable resource. A fair amount of that power is sold to Latvia. Estonia's own energy companies are also beginning to produce shale oil in larger quantities.
Good Job! by jamesl · 2013-03-19 05:33 · Score: 2, Funny

Estonia now has three charging stations for each and every electric car in the country. Good Job!
1. Re:Good Job! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:12 · Score: 0
  
  Shoot jamesl on site at the charge of being troll. We have more than 500+ iMIEVs in use by government and TENS MORE in private use (even one taxi company that has exclusively only LEAF-s, all five of them).
  To add that all together, there should be three EV-s for every public charging station instead.
2. Re:Good Job! by rubycodez · 2013-03-19 07:23 · Score: 1
  
  that's better than where I live, some well meaning but practically clueless people used their influence to get charging units at the rail stations and some large malls. I've never ever seen them used. what a waste. let's face it, electric cars are right now a toy for people with money to burn, they don't have range to be useful and the batteries are horribly expensive. may as well use a golf cart if your commute is a mile or two. the rest of us can wait for a serious breakthrough in battery technology, about an order of magnitude better ampere-hour storage at a third the cost.
3. Re:Good Job! by mardu · 2013-03-20 02:17 · Score: 1
  
  Actually there were 620 electic cars registered in Estonia at the end of February, 2013. As there are 163 charging stations, this makes about 3,8 chargins stations per car.
Why the fascination with electric cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:34 · Score: 0

They never recoup the extra green house emissions that are incurred in their production.
1. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Wovel · 2013-03-19 05:35 · Score: 2
  
  Torque...
2. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:45 · Score: 0
  
  This is a very good answer. The only problem is that they just won't be popular on the drag strip because they don't have the chest thumping, soul warming throaty roar of 8000HP engine. The traction control, though, is in the "Fucking awesome" category of a well done electric dragster. Less than an inch of wheel slip before the pad sticks again.
3. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Ol+Biscuitbarrel · 2013-03-19 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  Estonia gets 90% of its power from oil shale, the filthiest of the fossil fuels, so it's apropos to consider what the GHG balance here is.
4. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 06:38 · Score: 1
  
  The only problem is that they just won't be popular on the drag strip because they don't have the chest thumping, soul warming throaty roar of 8000HP engine.
  That can easily be overcome in an era when you can download ring tones and multi-kW sound systems are cheap.
  
  The traction control, though, is in the "Fucking awesome" category of a well done electric dragster. Less than an inch of wheel slip before the pad sticks again.
  No wasting time on gear shifts either. In all fairness though drag racers are the only people that have good reason to slip the tires - heating them up increases traction before the start of a race.
5. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:48 · Score: 0
  
  Fake noise is stupid. I'd have to think through shifting. Cooling the power supply though, that's an art form.
6. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 06:54 · Score: 1
  
  Fake noise is stupid.
  Not if it brings in the fans. You think dragsters pay for themselves?
7. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:47 · Score: 0
  
  Real noise brings in the fans. Fake noise will not. The rest of your points are spot on. However, poll all of your drunk redneck friends and see what they'll think if Fox News headlines "Electric Dragster Fakes: Artificial Noise Source Mocks Real Cars" or some such shit, which you know they will. Like I said, the lack of noise is what prevents them from being commercially successful. Hell, jet funnycars are still just a sideshow due to the noise not being the rumble people expect.
8. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by ebno-10db · 2013-03-19 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  The fake noise suggestion was meant tongue-in-cheek, but you never know. My complete inability to predict what people will buy explains my wise decision to never go into consumer marketing. As for "drunk rednecks", if you get 'em drunk enough they won't know.
  I've never understood why jet cars aren't more popular though. They make anything w/ pistons look like a joke, and they look and sound awesome.
9. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 08:20 · Score: 0
  
  Petrol has a supply chain too, which is getting more expensive (CO2 wise) as the oil that's easier to refine is being used up. Not to mention transporting electricity is way more environmentally friendly than transporting oil, in the way the matters most, i.e. polluting the water supply with carcinogens. As far as the carbon payoff goes, it depends on the life of the battery and the source of the electricity. If you assume the battery life of 1 to 2 years like some studies (which is absolutely wrong), than maybe it would seem petrol cars were better.
10. Re:Why the fascination with electric cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 08:33 · Score: 0
  
  Cheaper to operate. My Nissan Leaf cost me $25k net, same as I was going to spend on a regular 30-mpg car. So I started out roughly even on cost. In the first year I've had it, I've saved about $2000 on gas compared to that 30-mpg car, accounting for the extra electricity I bought. I expect to continue saving $2000/year; maybe more if gas prices go up. With current lease deals, some drivers are even covering their entire lease payment with the gas savings - free car!
  Could I have bought a cheap shitbox car instead and saved more? Sure. But then I'd be driving a cheap shitbox car.
  There are, of course, other reasons too. Not supporting hostile countries with oil money. The fact that electricity can come from a wide variety of different sources - coal, wind, hydro, solar, nuclear, natural gas, etc; regular cars can only use oil. Silky smooth ride. Quiet. Not smelly. Low maintenance. Geeky tech.
John M. Broder, not David. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:36 · Score: 0

Summary has it wrong. They are different people.
Direct current by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:41 · Score: 1

Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that Tesla's charging stations are using direct current...
1. Re:Direct current by jeffmeden · 2013-03-19 05:47 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that Tesla's charging stations are using direct current...
  You wouldn't want the charging station to kill any wayward elephants, now would you? I mean, think of the elephants
  
  /Edison
2. Re:Direct current by necro81 · 2013-03-19 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that Tesla's charging stations are using direct current
  No, insofar as batteries are inherently direct current devices. You can't charge a battery bank from alternating current unless you first rectify it. The motor that drives it is an AC induction motor, which Tesla made the greatest contributions to.
3. Re:Direct current by CanHasDIY · 2013-03-19 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that Tesla's charging stations are using direct current...
  Not anyone with even a basic understanding of electricity...
  Yea, I see what you tried to do there.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
4. Re:Direct current by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:38 · Score: 0
  
  No because the charging cable is very short. Tesla understood that for transmitting electricity over long distances, AC is superior.
Almost proud... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sounds great on paper! Not so great when you consider that our electricity here in Estonia comes mostly from oil shale which means there is no environmental advantage to electric vehicles. So all of this in the end comes down to fuel cost - getting an electric vehicle only makes sense if you are rich enough to be buying a new car (most normal people over here buy 5-10 year old used one), but if you are rich you don't care how much fuel costs.
Honestly Estonia is one of the worst countries for this recharging network...
On the other hand all of this came from CO2 emission license thingy sales so it was almost free and we did not have an alternative anyway...
1. Re:Almost proud... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:57 · Score: 0
  
  "CO2 emission license thingy sales so it was almost free"
  license sales = almost free
  Must be a European thing. Uh huh.
2. Re:Almost proud... by PRMan · 2013-03-19 06:38 · Score: 1
  
  FEWER people, and they have electronic everything, schools, taxes, public offices and public information is public. Oh and they have way lower poverty rate than the US of A. And incarceration, but hey, EVERYONE has.
  
  most normal people over here buy 5-10 year old used one
  But in America, almost everyone can afford a new car...
  
  --
  Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
3. Re:Almost proud... by avandesande · 2013-03-19 07:04 · Score: 1
  
  They also don't have the safety and crash standards that are found in the US that drives up the weight and the cost of EVs here...
  
  --
  love is just extroverted narcissism
4. Re:Almost proud... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:09 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  That is not entirely true.
  Something as large scale as a power plant can operate at a better efficiency than a car engine, it can also be better filtered etc. So even if it is a 'dirty' power plant it can and will (unless it is really poorly designed) still be better for the environment than the equicalent number of 'dirty' car engines.
5. Re:Almost proud... by zmooc · 2013-03-19 08:06 · Score: 1
  
  Still sounds great. It's probably still more CO2-efficient to do it this way than to refine the oil shale to gasoline and diesel and use it in combustion engines. However, doing it like Estonia does and facilitating the introduction of electric vehicles provides a path to actual clean cars. Investing in new combustion engines most certainly does not.
  
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  0x or or snor perron?!
6. Re:Almost proud... by compro01 · 2013-03-19 08:32 · Score: 2
  
  Not so great when you consider that our electricity here in Estonia comes mostly from oil shale which means there is no environmental advantage to electric vehicles.
  Sure there is. One big plant is far more efficient than hundreds of little engines, even after accounting for transmission and charging losses. You also save quite a lot of energy by not having to crack/upgrade the shale into gasoline/diesel.
  
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  upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
7. Re:Almost proud... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 08:35 · Score: 0
  
  Gonna have to call an absolutely massive [citation] on your statement there.
  No. No, "almost everyone" can most certainly NOT afford a new car. Or perhaps you meant "Almost everyone in the upper-middle class and above can afford a new car", which I'm sure is quite accurate.
  However, for the absolutely VAST MAJORITY of the population... which by the way is everyone defined as "middle class" and below... mostly below... we can NOT just afford to buy a new car. We consider it a goddamn MIRACLE if we can afford a used car that's only 5 years old. Odds are that if we can get ANY car, it'll be older than that.
  Or when you said "afford", did you mean "dig yourself SO far into debt with the car company that you'll be paying for that car for the next decade, whether it survives or not". Because I don't know what dictionary you use, but that's certainly not my definition of "afford".
  Now if you'll excuse me, I get to go drive my 11 year old car home, and PRAY that it somehow magically survives another 5+ years without completely breaking down beyond repair.
8. Re:Almost proud... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 14:45 · Score: 0
  
  Since we are in the EU, we have really strict standards.
9. Re:Almost proud... by martrootamm · 2013-03-20 05:04 · Score: 1
  
  The safety and crash standards are EU-wide and that area is belong to Euro NCAP, which I believe has quite a bit more stringent standards than in the U.S. Euro NCAP is backed by the European Commission and seven individual EU countries, and is generally a voluntary programme, but almost any car manufacturer worth their salt will build their cars towards compliance with standards set by Euro NCAP.
  
  What drives up the weight and cost of electric vehicles in the U.S. might be something different. Of course, I assume you don't have regulatory capture there ;-)
Broder is a hack by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 05:42 · Score: 0

Broder is a hack. There were charging stations near, he just wanted his car to fail.
Multiple trips have retraced his route and have had zero problems (even in similar weather). His name lending credibility to the front page of slashdot is an outrage.
Charging points by Firethorn · 2013-03-19 05:46 · Score: 1

Personally, I think that while fast chargers are important, they're not critical. I think the critical thing is to drop the price of the cars. A $30k EV with the capabilities of the Model S(range, passangers, weight, etc...) even if the interior isn't as nice would be a HUGE jump.
Basically, as long as people can point out valid down sides to EVs, you have to be able to point out upsides - and the core one would be 'money saved', while maintaining superior performance in as many other points as possible - comfort, power, ease of use, etc...
EVs pretty much win on the other features - modern ones are often as or more powerful than their competition(electric motors scale up well), they're quiet and non-polluting so the 'comfort' angle is addressed, no shifting at all makes them easy to use. EVs are great except for one big problem - the batteries. They're too expensive for not enough capacity. That's improving, but it's going to be a while.

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I don't read AC A human right
1. Re:Charging points by 0123456 · 2013-03-19 05:54 · Score: 2
  
  EVs are great except for one big problem - the batteries. They're too expensive for not enough capacity. That's improving, but it's going to be a while.
  You could have said pretty much the same about electric cars a century ago, so it could be a long 'while'.
2. Re:Charging points by RaceProUK · 2013-03-19 05:57 · Score: 1
  
  EVs are great except for one big problem - the batteries. They're too expensive for not enough capacity.
  Not to mention the large amounts of pollution from the production of them. Oil's far from clean, but it's not as bad.
  Personally, I think EVs will only take off (and over) when we sort out a hydrogen infrastructure.
  
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  No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
3. Re:Charging points by RussR42 · 2013-03-19 06:01 · Score: 1
  
  They're too expensive for not enough capacity.
  Remember this? Air breathing batteries with energy density similar to gasoline.
4. Re:Charging points by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:22 · Score: 0
  
  Don't forget solar. Solar-powered race cars are averaging over 60 mph.
  It's not unthinkable to tow a solar trailer behind an EV to give it a boost while driving during the day.
  These cells would be perfect for that application.
5. Re:Charging points by larry+bagina · 2013-03-19 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah... EVs don't become more environmental than gasoline until ~80,000 miles. (Give or take, assuming you don't have to replace your batteries first).
  
  --
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  These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
6. Re:Charging points by Firethorn · 2013-03-19 09:17 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, about a decade ago I came up with a saying "There's nothing wrong with electric cars that a battery that lasts twice as long for half the price wouldn't fix".
  By my latest figuring, the switch to LiIon got us the 'twice as far', but LiIon doubled the price, at least initially. I think it's now back down to the price per kwh that NiMH and such used to be at, but it needs to be cut in half again, which is at least theoretically possible.
  
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  I don't read AC A human right
7. Re:Charging points by Firethorn · 2013-03-19 10:49 · Score: 1
  
  Not to mention the large amounts of pollution from the production of them. Oil's far from clean, but it's not as bad.
  Citation please? I've mostly seen studies like this.
  Even this article only says it's worse if the power is 100% coal, which most areas aren't.
  'Hydrogen Infrastructure' is a mistake in my opinion. Hydrogen is hard to store in the densities needed, you need expensive fuel cells to burn it efficiently, and it's not an energy source. It's an energy storage system - you have to spend energy to turn something into hydrogen - the most economical is natural gas, which is actually more efficient to use as a fuel directly, or from electrolysis, which is currently much less efficient than charging a battery.
  
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  I don't read AC A human right
8. Re:Charging points by RaceProUK · 2013-03-19 11:26 · Score: 1
  
  I was talking about the production of the batteries vs the refining of oil, and you counter with an emissions comparison. It follows my rebuttal should focus on the use of animal products in the interior.
  
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  No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
9. Re:Charging points by Firethorn · 2013-03-19 11:49 · Score: 1
  
  I was talking about the production of the batteries vs the refining of oil, and you counter with an emissions comparison.
  No need to get snippy, simply cite a source on the batteries like I asked. All I really did was "Could you cite X? I'm only familiar with stuff that says Y". Heck, the BBC link is a lifecycle test that acknowledges that more pollution happens in the factories for EVs, but it says that EVs are eventually 10-24% better than gasoline vehicles over their lifetime. Which would be a proper study comparing EVs with their polluting battery production vs conventional cars with their polluting fuel; IE total up ALL the pollution involved and make a determination.
  Keep in mind that the market is shifting away from the NiCd and NiMh that were present in hybrids and EV1 to LiIon in the Tesla series. The nastiest mines I remember about batteries was the Nickel mines in Canada, and that's not present in the battery packs in Tesla cars. I suppose you could cite a source on animal products, but that would be a touch off topic.
  
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  I don't read AC A human right
10. Re:Charging points by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 11:50 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, because the production of gas cars is so much better, right? Not a chance in hell. I've seen the tar sands in Alberta, the oil rigs off the coast, and the Texas/California oil fields... I've also seen my solar panels on my roof, a solar thermal plant in California, and a large wind farm in Michigan. Which group do you think has less environmental impact?
  The batteries just aren't that bad. Yes, they have to mine some lithium and phosphates, but it isn't that bad, and they can get recycled.
There's an app for that... by MrLogic17 · 2013-03-19 05:58 · Score: 1

If you're looking for USA changing locations, search your Droid/iOS app store for "Charge Bud". Has a list of charging points.
I'm sure there are other resources for that data as well.
1. Re:There's an app for that... by PRMan · 2013-03-19 06:40 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I'm looking for click-in standardized replacement batteries. I pull up to a station. Unclick my batteries and put them in the charger and immediately click in replacements and leave. I'm not waiting around for 30 minutes to charge my car.
  
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  Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
2. Re:There's an app for that... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 08:45 · Score: 0
  
  The current paradigm of going to a station specifically to fuel up (and waiting around for it to finish) doesn't make sense for electric vehicles. The vast, VAST majority of the time, EV owners recharge at night while they sleep. When charging away from home, you do it opportunistically, when you'll be nearby for a significant period of time anyway. At work, the shopping mall, movie theater, restaurant, etc. All places where you'll probably spend an hour or more, giving enough time to pick up a good amount of charge.
  Swappable batteries is a nice idea, but I don't think it'll ever happen. They are HEAVY, so it'll take serious equipment to do the swap. What's the guarantee that you don't get a worn out battery on its last legs? And I don't see manufacturers standardizing on a particular size and shape when it's large enough to significantly influence the rest of the vehicle design.
  As for apps, I prefer Plugshare.
3. Re:There's an app for that... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 12:17 · Score: 0
  
  If the cars are properly designed the battery swap could be accomplished robotically. Situate the batteries so they can be swapped from beneath the vehicle and when you need a swap you just drive over the swap pit. The swapping station would be in charge of quality control for the batteries they have, retiring and properly recycling the worn out batteries and introducing new batteries into the system as needed. To avoid the "I don't want to swap out my brand new batteries for some used batteries" you could just start out the new cars with batteries from the swapping station inventory. You would pay a core charge for the original battery to help cover the cost of adding batteries to the system but it would eliminate the anxiety about the cost of replacing the batteries in your car when they wear out.
4. Re:There's an app for that... by swillden · 2013-03-19 15:28 · Score: 1
  
  I'm looking for click-in standardized replacement batteries. I pull up to a station. Unclick my batteries and put them in the charger and immediately click in replacements and leave. I'm not waiting around for 30 minutes to charge my car.
  Swappable batteries (and high-speed chargers) are a solution for a problem that only occurs in a very small percentage of typical driving. Most vehicles spend a lot of time parked, and except for occasional longer trips (once every few weeks, or months) only drive fairly short distances. Commuting, running to the grocery store, taking the kids to school, that sort of thing. For that sort of driving, the answer isn't to use fast chargers or swap batteries, it's just to plug the car in whenever it's parked. The cost and complexity of the infrastructure required for swappable batteries just doesn't make sense for solving what's essentially a corner case for most people -- not all, mind you. People who regularly drive 400+ miles non-stop will continue to need combustion engines.
  
  --
  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
5. Re:There's an app for that... by AmiMoJo · 2013-03-19 22:18 · Score: 1
  
  The problem is that battery charging is already good enough for most people, and is only going to get better. By the time a swapping system is in place it will be irrelevant.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Estonia does a lot of things right by onyxruby · 2013-03-19 06:01 · Score: 1

They are a little country that does a lot of things right, and lead the way in technology in many ways. I think it's great that they do this, and they deserve credit accordingly. However to say that this would scale to other countries of larger size is fairly disingenuous. Places like the United States are much, much larger and a comparison between the two is effectively meaningless.
Submitter also fails to mention that the NY times journalist was looking for a charging station that was poorly lit at night time. The journalist had his failings in his story, however it's intellectually dishonest to say that he was trying to run down the battery while looking for a recharging station for a moment.
Estonia has cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:10 · Score: 0

How do you drive a car through all that mud?
1. Re:Estonia has cars? by rubycodez · 2013-03-19 07:32 · Score: 2
  
  maybe you're confused with the Elbonia in Dilbert strips. Estonia is much different, it's a land of lakes, fens and bogs, not mud. the difference is plants and moss grow in that glop. Also, they don't wear funny hats, except when it's cold or to sporting events.
2. Re:Estonia has cars? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:56 · Score: 0
  
  So, it's Elbonia. Got it!
Nice work, editors by MAXOMENOS · 2013-03-19 06:16 · Score: 1

So hard that New York Times reporter David Broder had to drive in circles and drain his Tesla's battery.
You realize that Broder's story was thoroughly, totally debunked by Tesla, right? I mean, there was a story on Slashdot about it.

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Finding God in a Dog
1. Re:Nice work, editors by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:39 · Score: 0
  
  Broder's story was thoroughly, totally debunked by Tesla
  Um, Tesla happens to be the vendor of the product being reviewed!
  Sorry, you aren't a winner this time.
2. Re:Nice work, editors by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:51 · Score: 0
  
  I mean, there was a story on Slashdot about it.
  You're making the fatal assumption there that Slashdot editors read Slashdot. That never has been the case, as dupes prove, and probably never will be.
  The editors have an entirely write-only role. They're not even allowed to read what they write themselves, which is why the summaries are so full of nonsense and errors.
Just Like Diesel by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 06:22 · Score: 0

People as far back as the 70's dissed diesel cars, asking where do you get diesel; That was the more ridiculous argument but powerful enough to have them avoid diesel cars.
You might be a Greentard by TheSkepticalOptimist · 2013-03-19 06:39 · Score: 0

Advocating that everyone should buy an electric vehicle but then also advocating everyone to turn off their lights during Earth Hour and conserving energy in general.
If you don't understand the stupidity of people wanting both those conditions then you might be a Greentard.

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I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
1. Re:You might be a Greentard by Lithdren · 2013-03-19 07:24 · Score: 1
  
  To be fair, they're trying to make a point with Earth Hour. Weather you agree with it or not, really doesn't matter. They're attempting to, through action, bring awareness to their arguments. An hour without lights isn't going to save anything, but you'll note everyone talks about it. So sounds like it's working to me.
  They are also encuraging the purchase of eletric vehicles. Sure there are bad points to them, but they're generally cleaner than a normal car, or at least will be/would be with more investment in things like efficent battery designs. Hard to do until they're a major player in the market, hence the wish to push them as an agenda item.
  You could take pretty much any two points from any political group and look at them in a vacume and declare them idiots for wanting both. All you're proving is you listen to too much talking heads on TV rather than coming up with rational arguments.
  And I dont even nessisarily agree with any of it, but at least I can see what they're trying to accomplish.
some assumptions by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:06 · Score: 0

>The question now is, will the electric vehicles follow?
My assumption is probably not very soon. The feedback from the users of these cars is not quite encouraging.
One of them had the car, another car and the garage burn down. The fire supposedly began from the car's charger.
Another one claims one can't really get anywhere with it during the winter, even when going ~40 km/h and keeping the interior heating off to save the battery charge. She also claims to have been sick a few times due to having to keep the heating off in order to actually get somewhere with the car.
But who knows, maybe it's just this car model that's not so good.
John Broder by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 07:13 · Score: 0

John Broder != David S Broder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_S._Broder
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/john_m_broder/index.html?inline=nyt-per
Solar power by Tablizer · 2013-03-19 07:18 · Score: 1

In states with a lot of sunshine, it would be nice to have solar panels on electric cars. It won't do the entire job, but would reduce the need to find a non-home charging station.

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Table-ized A.I.
1. Re:Solar power by Cro+Magnon · 2013-03-19 07:39 · Score: 1
  
  Not in my state. We'd be better off sticking a sail to the car and using wind power.
  
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  Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
2. Re:Solar power by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 09:35 · Score: 0
  
  I remember reading that dragging around the added weight of the panels more than offsets the trickle of power you'd get from vehicle mounted panels. Much better to install a grid tied array at home.
Not a direct replacement by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 10:14 · Score: 0

Electric Charging Station is not a direct drop-in replacement for a gas station. Since the nature of energizing electric cars is different from just filling up, the location for charging station has to be convenient enough for users to leave the car to charge while doing something else, instead of standing at the edge of town waiting. Footprint of charging stations could be far smaller and potentially cheaper than gas stations, thus most probably they can be integrated into existing infrastructures such as car parks or homes. It takes more than just time for the public to change their habits of filling up and go.
re by TheRealDevTrash · 2013-03-19 10:22 · Score: 0

A little slanted on the story there aren't ya?

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I used to be /dev/trash but Slashdot no longer allows slashes for usernames.
Air breathing Lithium battery? by Firethorn · 2013-03-19 10:57 · Score: 1

Nope, must of missed it.
Still, that would be in the 'improving, but it's going to be a while' category. Having followed the links, I see no mention of cost, longevity, charge efficiency, amp capacity, charge rate, and such that I'd expect to see for something that's 'almost ready' to be manufactured for use in EVs or even just phones.
It's neat technology, but until it's developed into a commercial processes, it's just 'neat', not 'practical'.

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I don't read AC A human right
Estonia is so small... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 12:55 · Score: 0

They recently had the whole country carpeted.
You can take a cab from one end of the country to the other for $5 dollars.
Chicken / Egg / Corrupt Politician Problem by Anonymous Coward · 2013-03-19 14:07 · Score: 0

It's not like we don't have governments who could build these for a fraction of most other government works projects.
Better yet, mandate that all gas stations and government rest areas have to have atleast 1 charger, with say, a 5 year deadline.
It's such a big problem that Estonia seems to have solved it. It's bad enough that Romania is a decade ahead of us with internet infrastructure.
Your a pile of shit monkey sucking shit. by ralphaostrander · 2013-03-19 14:22 · Score: 1

This story has been proven false and hundreds of others with the same car made the same trip no problems. Go fuck yourself. This if slashdot not fucking fox news, You should lose your mother fucking account.
Wrong model for electric cars by fikx · 2013-03-19 15:17 · Score: 1

the filling station model is just wrong for full electric cars right now...I know it seems like a good idea to work up from the existing filling station infrastructure and fill in gaps with more of the same, but over and over we need a new infrastructure model to deal with limits on storage...not charging stations like filling station....power while moving is the trick. A new infrastructure. Keep the battery in the car for making the system easier to put together (not having to constantly power the car, but not relying on the battery to get you all the way to a filling/charging station). Overhead power lines, buried inductive cables, something. Bonus points if you paint chevrons on the powered part of the road to look like turbo boosts in the old driving games.

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AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
Oil shale; we don't have coal or oil. by martrootamm · 2013-03-20 05:16 · Score: 1

And though it's somehow possible to create shale oil from oil shale, then it's impractical to then use shale oil to power a power plant, instead of burning oil shale in the first place. A filthy natural resource as it may be, it's one of the few reasonably safe energy-producing natural resources that we have an abundance of. The other energy-producing resource that can be mined is not an option.

We're also striving to use more wind and solar and hydroelectricity (hydro on a smaller scale).