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Teachers Know If You've Been E-Reading

RougeFemme writes with this story in the New York Times about one disconcerting aspect of the ongoing move to electronic textbooks: "Teachers at 9 colleges are testing technology from a Silicon Valley start-up that lets them know if you're skipping pages, highlighting text, taking notes — or, of course, not opening the book at all. '"It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent," said Tracy Hurley, the dean of the school of business at Texas A&M.' 'Major publishers in higher education have already been collecting data from millions of students who use their digital materials. But CourseSmart goes further by individually packaging for each professor information on all the students in a class — a bold effort that is already beginning to affect how teachers present material and how students respond to it, even as critics question how well it measures learning.'"

348 comments

  1. No!!! by therealobsideus · · Score: 1

    I don't want my professors knowing that I am totally using SparkNotes!

    1. Re:No!!! by orthancstone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe your professors should know if there are better options available.

    2. Re:No!!! by therealobsideus · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but I couldn't be arsed to read Kant's Grounding of Metaphysics of Morals. SparkNotes did just fine for me.

    3. Re:No!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This type of intrusion would be completely unacceptable for an adult, and is equally wrong when applied to children.

      Also, it will breed acceptance of monitoring and surveillance as 'the norm' in a new generation.

    4. Re:No!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You really should read it, it's one of the more interesting and readable texts, especially with modern English translations that depart from the convoluted German of Kant ("The Moral Law", published by Routledge is a really nice read - for "Kantian" levels at least). I can completely understand that the incredibly unreadable Critique of Pure Reason etc. seem aloof, but his Groundwork really speaks to most readers.

    5. Re:No!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I managed to get through engineering graduate school without highlighting a single damned thing, and it always annoyed the f'all out of me to find used textbooks that were so liberally highlighted with that godawful neon yellow. I guess that I also missed the point on why I needed to takes notes or make other pithy entries while reading through texts, most of which were excruciatingly poorly written as to be barely readable.

      Believe it or not, and organic chemistry text was the only one that I would even consider as being close to readable... it's pretty sad when you think about it...

  2. Disconcerting? by Xugumad · · Score: 2

    Why is it disconcerting?

    I mean... yes, it can be mis-used. The data should be used to flag up pupils who may be struggling, but will also flag those who may already know the material, but just because data could be incorrectly used doesn't make it inherently worrying.

    Does it?

    1. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because it is worthless.

      Again the easy thing to measure is the wrong thing. If the student read the material from this ebook has not a thing in a the world to do with the student knowing the material or not. He may have learned it in the past, he may read another book about the subject or hacked the ebook so he could read it on another device.

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

    2. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Professors have standards, and ethical requirements.
      What you worry about just won't happen.

      For at least two weeks.
      Possibly a third.

      Shit, who even needs to grade them on their work? You KNOW whether or not they've read the bloody book with this.

    3. Re:Disconcerting? by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Why is it disconcerting?

      I mean... yes, it can be mis-used. The data should be used to flag up pupils who may be struggling, but will also flag those who may already know the material, but just because data could be incorrectly used doesn't make it inherently worrying.

      Does it?

      But who wants teachers/bosses/whoever prying into everything they do? Those who want to learn will learn, those who don't won't, irrespective of whether someone's spying on them.

    4. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does the student know if they know the material in the ebook without looking at the pages?

    5. Re:Disconcerting? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      hacked the ebook so he could read it on another device.

      Or even ... printed it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:Disconcerting? by maz2331 · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is inherently wrong, especially in a college setting where the student is paying to attend the classes. Maybe if the tech had proper controls where the student was in charge of what got shared, with whom, and when it could be a positive (ie... struggling and can ask for help, then provide the access for review and suggestions).

      Otherwise, it's just an outright invasion of the student's privacy.

    7. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Because the student knows the subject already.
      I had several university classes that I was able to score a 4 in that I never bought or even saw a copy of the written material. It would have been a waste of time and money for me to buy and read those books.

    8. Re:Disconcerting? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      What makes it disconcerting is that it shows that the publishers of e-books have the ability to know what parts of it I am reading.
      Of course, the article actually makes a point of showing as an example of how it is good by highlighting what I would call a misuse of this technology. A professor noticed that a student, who by every traditional measure of doing well was doing excellent, didn't read the textbook. Instead of concluding that the student was able to learn the material from his lectures and other sources concluded that the student wasn't actually learning the material. I was an "A" student through high school and college, scoring well within the top percentile on every type of standardized test I ever took (including the MCAT), yet I rarely read the textbooks (although I usually read my roommates' textbooks).. The reason I never read the textbooks was because they rarely contained anything that added to my knowledge over and above what the professor presented in lecture.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    9. Re:Disconcerting? by HolyLime · · Score: 1

      Because it is worthless.

      Again the easy thing to measure is the wrong thing. If the student read the material from this ebook has not a thing in a the world to do with the student knowing the material or not. He may have learned it in the past, he may read another book about the subject or hacked the ebook so he could read it on another device.

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

      THANK YOU! And as a teacher I am going to add that most textbooks are dry, boring, and ineffectual.

    10. Re:Disconcerting? by six025 · · Score: 1

      The data should be used to flag up pupils who may be struggling

      IANAT and probably don't appreciate everything that being a teacher entails, but whatever happened to engaging with students and knowing who requires extra attention or some other method of engagement to get them motivated?

      I'm all for technology, but some problems are human problems and won't be solved by adding new technology to the mix. If anything it will make some situations worse, as we become lazier (rely on the machines to do our job) and further removed from each other.

      Just my 2 cents.

      Peace,
      Andy.

    11. Re:Disconcerting? by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      That sounds suspiciously like the argument, "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.", that is brought up to support all kinds of big brotherish laws.

      We have had a perfectly good system to measure how well people are learning material. It's called a test. You pass it, you know the material. what difference does it matter if the person is good at highlighting? maybe I happen to already know the material but have to take the course because there's no mechanism to allow me to test out of it. Now i have to spend hours reading it even though i'll ace the tests?

    12. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then it was a waste of time for you to take the class. And depending on the country you're from, you were just wasting your own money if it was a university class. Speaking as someone who's been in academics for decades, I simply asked to move onto a harder class in that case.

      And there are classes that I could teach now where, if for some reason I was sitting in, it would still be meaningful for the instructor to know if I looked at the book, and things I could learn even if I know the subject.

    13. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

      Not only easier to measure, but more "socially desirable". Instead of grading students on whether they've learned the material, you can grade them on whether they've tried to learn the material. This avoids the sometimes embarrassing fact that not everyone can hack certain courses.

      At a lower level, I'm not a hard-ass about this. "A for effort" may be appropriate, to a certain extent, in elementary school, where you have to take into account that kids mental abilities may develop at different times, and can't be properly ascertained until they're a bit older. But in college? No way. At a college level nobody should even care if you attend classes, so long as you learn the material.

    14. Re:Disconcerting? by lxs · · Score: 1

      If only somebody would invent a way to examine the student's level of understanding. Some sort of "test" if you will. You could call it an "examination", or maybe an "exam" for short.

    15. Re:Disconcerting? by Mystakaphoros · · Score: 1

      Kinda like how Hurley's comment in the article (“It’s Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent!") does basically nothing to distinguish this from any other Big Brotherish effort. Most of 'em seem like a nice idea at first.

    16. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In some of those cases I did ask, and was promptly denied for that class was a prereq for the next class. I tested out whenever possible in that type of situation.

      The instructor does not need to know, if it is meaningful to him, he is a poor instructor. His job is to present the class, offering the readings and hold tests. Not to be your babysitter.

    17. Re:Disconcerting? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      IT's not quite that simple. It may be the case that the lectures alone are enough to know the subject. It may also be that you can't take a harder class, or that there is no purpose for you to take a harder class. If the degree you are seeking requires a certain level biology credit, and you know biology to that level, the path of least resistance is to sleep through class and ace the tests. Is it as efficient as if you could simply test out of the bio credit? No, but I don't believe that's possible with a large number of institutions.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    18. Re:Disconcerting? by Lazere · · Score: 1

      What if I'm already in the highest level classes I can take, but I need the degree to move on? Granted, I've always found the actual class part engaging. I just rarely need the book.

    19. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Those are difficult to write well, harder to grade well and it is extremely difficult to present that data to others.

      Pages read on the other hand is easier in all aspects.

    20. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then it was a waste of time for you to take the class.

      Not if taking the class was required for getting your degree.

    21. Re:Disconcerting? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      These days, it should be disconcerting whenever people start collecting data which can easily be misused, especially when the valid uses for that data is limited. The reason you should be concerned is that data will almost certainly be used for something, most likely by someone who doesn't really understand how to analyze the data.

      We're a society obsessed with metrics. We've had a lot of success with science and automation and statistical analyses, and we've been primed to expect that numbers mean things. When you or I see an obvious trend on a line graph-- it doesn't matter how smart we are-- we think that trend is a sign of some real trend even before we know what the line graph represents. We assume that it's the result of some kind of controlled study by people smarter than us, and that their conclusions are probably correct.

      So make no mistake: if schools start using this, there will be cases where a student gets into trouble for "not reading his book". There will be kids who will open their ebooks and flip through them at calculated rates, and there will be teachers who believe that means that they read the book. There will be news stories saying, "According to a scientific study, x% of students don't even complete their reading assignments," and that study may or may not be accurate. We won't know whether it's accurate, because we'll just trust the numbers presented by some reporter without understanding that it was derived from a questionable measurement.

    22. Re:Disconcerting? by Xeranar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're making some pretty strong assumptions. First that professors care whether students read the material, we don't. This is big person school and you should be doing what we assigned as it is nominally expected. I'm the biggest giver in my department, if young adults come to me and ask for help or a more thorough explanation I always give it. This is a really great metric to see if assigning a reading is worthwhile as to see if the majority reads it or refers to another source. Second the alternatives you give seem a little outlandish. Hacking an ebook isn't exactly grade school knowledge and at most a kid is more likely to download a PDF of the book from a torrent site than break the encryption on the software.

      This is why people get paranoid over nothing. Professors in general are more hurt when you don't read than angry. We wonder why we screwed up more than you.

    23. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The problem with allowing the "A for effort" in elementary education is that this then breeds an expectation in the student and the whole system.

      If you cannot read by end of First grade, you should be repeating. Instead today we "A for effort" until 6th grade and then maybe a higher level teacher does more than promote them to get rid of them. The end result is people graduating high school that can't read at a functional level.

    24. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, there are plenty of exams that are simply garbage and are easily passed simply by memorizing facts and procedures. Of course, well-designed tests can avoid this, but so many people seem to care more about rote learning than actual understanding...

    25. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Is it as efficient as if you could simply test out of the bio credit? No, but I don't believe that's possible with a large number of institutions.

      Been some years for me, but as I recall some colleges charge as much to challenge the course as to take it. If you do challenge it, they'll bust your shoes in any way possible. Easier, and no more expensive, to take the class and snooze.

    26. Re:Disconcerting? by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Why disconcerting? Let's say I read with a truly unusual level of speed and comprehension. Come exam time, I've spent only a fraction of the "expected" time with my "nose in a book", and yet I ace the test. Repeat. It's not long before I am suspected of cheating. Fuck that and the notion that my instructors need to know how much time I've spent studying. They need to know that I've mastered the material I was assigned. Period.

    27. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about two students learning together, and using the ebook of one of the students (thus causing the other student's copy to never be touched)?
      What about a student having a printed copy of that book and using that?

    28. Re:Disconcerting? by Xeranar · · Score: 1

      What kind of class are you in? In science classes the texts are nothing without an explanation or transistion. In social sciences the texts are great but lack the minutia of discussion. I just don't see a class where the professor is just some exam proctor. Maybe you're just conflating your ego a bit too much as if the professor was in the way of your intellect.

    29. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and with e-books being just digital versions of the book, the e-book is "dry, boring, and ineffectual."

      Also, a new excuse for not reading the material is "the battery died"

    30. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely not these books on physics.

    31. Re:Disconcerting? by MacTO · · Score: 1

      It all depends upon how the data is used. Proper use can suggest where students are struggling, so that in class instruction can be improved. In conjunction with other data, it can be used to identify and help at risk students. Of course, it can also indicate whether a textbook is a valuable resource or otherwise.

      On the other hand, it can be abused. I was forced to drop a course back in the days of paper textbooks because I refused to buy a book that the instructor had written. The book that I had from a prior course was better suited to my style of learning (e.g. it forced me to derive proofs rather than be spoon-fed proofs, the prose was more concise and more interesting, and I was familiar with the structure of the book). Now the issue only came up because I brought up the issue. In the realm of electronic textbooks, the instructor need only compare the list of students enrolled in the class to the list of students registered to use the textbook.

      Now things aren't always that bad. I had professors who wrote the book and were perfectly okay with students who photocopied it (i.e. the other extreme). But when things get in the way of a professor's, department's, or university's business plan it can get nasty. I managed to step on the feet of all three levels. Fortunately, only the instructor was vindictive.

    32. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Some professors do care if pages are read, or will once they realize that this is an easy metric to gather.

      I once got a 3.0 in a class instead of a 4.0 even though I scored a 97% on the Final, a 96% on the tests and a 98% on Labs. I never attended any class meeting other than examinations. For that my grade was docked by a moron who surely would use this pages read metric as another way to be a petty dictator. He could not write a simple sort on the board without consulting his notes, but somehow I was supposed to waste my time in his class.

      I don't think knowing the material before is that outlandish, nor is downloading a simple tool to crack an ebook. We did that when I was in university and that was pretty much the beginning of that sort of thing. These were generally PDFs that would only open in some DRMed client.

    33. Re:Disconcerting? by leonardluen · · Score: 2

      Shit, who even needs to grade them on their work? You KNOW whether or not they've read the bloody book with this.

      that is awesome because my book will show i read it 432 times, on the first day of class even! so i must be an expert in the material by now!

      if they start monitoring page reads, then just wait for someone to make an script to automatically flip the pages for them so it appears they read it.

    34. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I guess there will just evolve more ways to cheat. After all, you cannot really see from the data whether the student reads the pages, even less understands them. Therefore the student may just open the pages at some credible rate. Maybe there will be lists circulating of items that you should highlight on your ebook in order to get more credits (not that I ever highlighted anything in my books; I guess I would have been labelled a bad learner by this system ...)

    35. Re:Disconcerting? by neokushan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I would guess that this will be mostly used to protect the professor's back. So what if a student doesn't read the material, when it comes down to it and the student scores poorly on an exam, the professor can bring up their statistics and point out that it's the student's fault, not theirs.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    36. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      I graduated a long time ago.

      Some of these were entry level physics which the textbook and high school more than covered and CS classes. If a science textbook needs explanation then textbook is poorly written.

      I would posit that in every 101 level class the prof was just an exam proctor. They were all highschool over again.

    37. Re:Disconcerting? by readin · · Score: 1

      If the ebook is to be used on a internet browser, it could be that the parents had to purchas a hardcopy of the book due to a poorly designed website.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    38. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      In mine a test out was free, but it only got you a Pass for the class with 0 credit hours. So if you need 10 Chem credit hours, why test out only to have to still take 10 hours in a now harder class?

    39. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like one of my teachers said: this course is for those who want to learn, for those ho know and those who think they know.

      And a 4 is a pretty pathetic grading, you should try to get a 5+ in each. Or you are content being a mediocre all your life?

    40. Re:Disconcerting? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      My problem is what really constitutes "effort"? A student in the earlier grades who performs well may not put much effort into individual assignments, but has an attitude and lifestyle that permits good marks. While kids from a good home where the basics (ABC's and 123's) can do the entire homework with no mistakes and no effort, some kids who didn't receive such things in their childhood may have to put forth a lot of effort to do a particular assignment, but ultimately will still be unable to get all the answers right. However, the child who puts in no "effort" for the particular assignment is probably putting in a decent amount of effort by reading and doing other learning tasks on their own time.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    41. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      4 was the maximum possible grade.
      4=A
      3=B
      2=C
      1=D
      0=F

    42. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not a babysitter? I sure wish you'd talk to my department chair, my dean, the Provost and the state legislature. Because they're all convinced I need to be the students' babysitter. Guess what happens to my chances at retention, raises, and promotion if I just treat everyone like adults and fail those who don't do the work? Keep in mind: people who know the material already are the exception to the rule. The ill-prepared and, sadly, indolent student is more common. And I'm expected to babysit those students. Some schools are even requiring faculty to carry cellphones and be on call so that when Little Johnny Baseballhat realizes he needs an answer, we can turn to and present. So, yeah, I'd like to live in your world. It would be nice to have people like yourself who are self-starting and ready to move on to more advanced topics.

    43. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, in my country we don;t have that multiple question crap. You are asked a question or shown a problem and you have to answer or solve it and you are graded by the steps leading to the solution, not the solution itself. Teachers typically discount points for errors and keep grading the rest of the test assuming the error never happens (unless is a theory error, in that case you are simply suspended)

    44. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, the Slashdot community always thinks from the students' perspective. Do you imagine these statistics used to evaluate teaching. And I'm talking about the impact of a particular professor on certain students? You're assuming they will evaluate the student's intent, rather than the teacher's impact. (as an statistician, if i were a teacher, I'd like to know if my good students are using or not the book, if they don't need it, or they're using another one) but yes, it's a metric which is easy to abuse.

    45. Re:Disconcerting? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Then it was a waste of time for you to take the class. And depending on the country you're from, you were just wasting your own money if it was a university class. Speaking as someone who's been in academics for decades, I simply asked to move onto a harder class in that case.

      And there are classes that I could teach now where, if for some reason I was sitting in, it would still be meaningful for the instructor to know if I looked at the book, and things I could learn even if I know the subject.

      In the Florida State University system, if you are in the CIS track and you transfer to another institution within the system, you are required to take their "Introduction to Computers" class again. I did, and by that time, I had 15 years professional experience, and had even taught a programming language at one of the schools within that system.

      The cynic in me says that that requirement was just a revenue ploy, but speaking more charitably, it did provide the point at which the students were introduced to that school's computer lab. And this was back when they didn't automatically assume - or require - that you had a PC (or mainframe) of your own, much less VPN access to the campus network.

      There may have been a textbook for that course. I never bought it, if there was. I never missed it.

    46. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      That's taking it to an extreme, which may well happen some places. At a more moderate level it's another story.

    47. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Get a job at a private university.

      Any professor not failing Johnny Baseballhat is doing all its students and former students a disservice. Every time that kind of student gets a diploma all the other diplomas from that institution are cheapened.

    48. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      My problem is why does effort matter?

      In the real world we care about results not effort. If you have to reduce your department head count by one and your have to to select from the lazy guy who gets all his work or a hard worker bee who never completes his assigned takes, lazy will still be collecting a paycheck while the hard worker will be on unemployment.

      Results are what matter, teaching kids any different is a disservice to them and the society they join.

    49. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

      Actually the worse danger is it replacing metrics that sort of work. It's common practice to have students write a response paper, but grading them is time consuming and all they really do is give an indication of who did the reading. If professors think they can just look up who did the reading they'll probably stop collecting response papers. Then the person who sets their kindle to read the book to them and turns off the volume advances through the chapter triggering the "pages read" metric without ever encountering the material.

    50. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if you have to take the course as a matter of degree requirements? What if you can't "test out" of the course in question? What then?

      Reading your comment was a waste of time because you're a flipping idiot.

    51. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, so you're saying you preferred doing the bare minimum required to make your degree factory crank out a degree for you!

      For somebody so interested in talking about how he was so far beyond the rest of his class that these metrics would invariably show he was "not reading the book, but still acing the exams," it's rather curious that you'd admit you didn't want to be challenged by your coursework.

      Color me unimpressed by your academic achievements.

    52. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hacked the ebook so he could read it on another device.

      Or even ... printed it.

      "I'm sorry I cannot allow you to print this ebook. Your request has been logged and forwarded to the appropriate authority. Please refrain from such requests in the future under penalty of expulsion from the institution of higher learning." - HAL 2013 - Higher Education Edition

    53. Re:Disconcerting? by emj · · Score: 1

      that is awesome because my book will show i read it 432 times, on the first day of class even!

      And just before grading it will say that you haven't read a single page, just skipped over them all, I'll be sure to leave some people in the class with more read pages so it doesn't seems to suspicious.

    54. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      some kids who didn't receive such things in their childhood may have to put forth a lot of effort to do a particular assignment

      So there's the effort that they should be getting credit for.

      A related problem is that kids who are bright and/or come from a good environment come to expect to get A's without much effort. That sets them up to be discouraged or poor students as they get older and the going gets tougher. My 4th grade daughter is a bright kid who (I hope) comes from a decent environment. People used to tell her she was smart, which infuriated me, despite (or because) it's true. I've finally gotten them to stop (mostly) and I tell her that just because she's bright is no excuse to not work at school. I expect more because she's smart. I don't take it to an extreme, like scolding her because she got a B, but I will gently ask her why she didn't do better. Thankfully I think it's sinking in.

    55. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So soon you'll find students tapping from time to time on their ebooks while otherwise doing something completely different. ;-)

    56. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Gotta love the educational-industrial complex. What business wants to let customers buy less.

    57. Re:Disconcerting? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I teach in college, and I see this attitude every fucking day.

      I have students who will tell me that they already know the subject, that this class isn't giving them anything (entry-level/mid level English), and that they shouldn't have to take it at all. Throughout the course of the semester, almost every student will tell me this.

      In the 6 sections I teach, of ~30 students, I would say 2 actually don't need this class. A VAST majority just see stuff like what you say spouted constantly on-line and by there ignorant ass friends. A VAST majority simply over-value their skills and abilities.

      I'm not saying that you aren't different, I'm just saying that in a majority of cases where 'the student knows the subject already' it really is 'the student believes that s/he knows the subject already, but really doesn't know his/her ass from a hole in the ground, but because s/he is such an entitled, self-important precious little snowflake, s/he can't make wise decisions'. Believe me when I tell you this - in most cases where the student is acting out because "he is bored with the coursework," in all actuality, "he just has piss-poor self-control and his parents don't hold him accountable." The little geniuses that parents see are really just average kids who are supremely lazy in most cases. (Keep in mind that I acted out in school because I was an advanced learner, they do exist, just not as often as you would be led to believe by parents.)

      Somewhere along the way, the attitude in college shifted from the very collegiate ---I'm here to learn--- to the very secondary school ---you have to teach me, good luck---. What you see with this - where instructors can track the number of pages read, is just the simplest form of teacher-student coercion to do actual God Damned work that happens every day in various forms.

    58. Re:Disconcerting? by nine-times · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If professors need that kind of protection, then something else is very wrong.

    59. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, so you're saying you preferred doing the bare minimum required to make your degree factory crank out a degree for you!

      I don't know about him, but for me, yes. I wanted to get my degree so that I could actually do things rather than sit around in classrooms, Mr. Useless.

    60. Re:Disconcerting? by hackula · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that will be great for you when you fail "Johnny Baseballhat " and kick his ass out of the "Jonathan Baseballhat School of Business" which his father paid for. Good Ol Boys don't let "grades" get in the way of their kids graduating.

    61. Re:Disconcerting? by hackula · · Score: 1

      Watch out! There's a Tiger Mom right behind you!

    62. Re:Disconcerting? by johnlcallaway · · Score: 1

      And, since I pay to go to college, it's none of their business. If someone wants to pay thousands of dollars and fail a course because they don't read the course material, that's their right. It's none of the professor's business really. I never took any notes in college or highlighted anything, and did just fine. Probably could have done better. But I didn't fail anything. And I paid for every dime of it.

      On the other hand, if I go to the professor and am having issues, and he suggest that he monitors my study habits to help me, and I agree, I see nothing wrong with it.

      It's the professors responsibility to provide the opportunity for me to learn, since I'm paying for it. It's not his responsibility to make sure I do learn.

      Using this at the high school level and sooner might make more sense, since it's tax dollars that are paying for the education.

      --
      I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
    63. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only somebody would invent a way to examine the student's level of understanding. Some sort of "test" if you will. You could call it an "examination", or maybe an "exam" for short.

      Nope. I favour essays / research papers for some courses, applied projects for some courses, and for courses such as mathematics a series of 100 out of a pool of 125 problems to solve. These would all be take-home examinations with students allowed to complete these examinations over a two-week period. All examination submissions must be handed in no later than the last day of the semester. No artificial pressure. No memorization necessary; understanding the concepts becomes the primary objective. This procedure could be applied to public schools (grades 4-12), colleges, and universities. This would teach students self-discipline and time management plus the necessary skills to be a life-long learner. This would allow teachers to focus on teaching the concepts at a fundamental level such that the students' understanding of these concepts is front and centre. This would permit parents to realize whether their children have developing at an appropriate rate. Examinations of the traditional variety are antiquated relics of a time when higher education, in particular, and education more generally was restricted to privately tutored children of the wealthy class of society.

    64. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You simply reply to those students, "Oh great! Then this class should be an easy way to cushion your GPA on the classes you do need". It was my exp that those students were generally not top acheivers, just lazy.

    65. Re:Disconcerting? by Ryan101 · · Score: 1

      But in the situation we are talking about here, taking the easiest classes doesn't get you your degree any faster. It just means that you can do fewer things.

    66. Re:Disconcerting? by internerdj · · Score: 1

      I've been taking college courses for the majority of 15 years now. Roughly speaking by the end of the first third of the semester the workload is such that the assigned reading is not the most valuable use of my time. Often the workload is so heavy that even if I want to continue with the reading I can't perform on my assignments at an acceptable level if I do so. That isn't necessarily bad because working with the material is often as valuable or more than the exposure through reading. The professor heavily influences the likelyhood of a student to read the text with his or her selected course design.

    67. Re:Disconcerting? by hackula · · Score: 1

      Cheating got me where I am today. I programmed every one of the formulas in every math or physics class into my TI83 from the time I was 13 (I am out of uni now). At the beginning of most exams, the teacher would normally walk around and make sure everything was deleted from the program archives on the calculators. This made me learn how to program: I would clear everything off the calculator, then reprogram the algorithms in the first 5 minutes of the test. Then I would plug everything in and turn in the perfect 100% test in 10-15 minutes. Now I work as a software engineer designing systems that let people do stats and predictive modeling. I thank the old cat and mouse game of school for giving me the skills I need to be successful today.

    68. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why would parents hold an adult accountable?
      Does your Mommy make sure you go to work everyday?
      This attitude that these are children to be coddled is not helping.

      Why are you not failing these folks?
      If a student could test out and get the credit hours, you and your 2 students who don't need it would be much happier.

    69. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I have no need to impress you.

      Everyone wants to do the bare minimum to get the job done. I was not that far beyond the rest of my class, lots of my peers did not have to read the course texts.

      Why would I want to waste my time on being challenged by something that was a gened credit?

    70. Re:Disconcerting? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      why test out only to have to still take 10 hours in a now harder class?

      Because you would learn more.

    71. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      In a subject outside my major, lower my GPA and add hours of work when I already had labs taking up so much time?

      I applaud anyone who would go for that, I was not willing to risk graduation when I was already in so much debt.

    72. Re:Disconcerting? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 2

      Why would parents hold an adult accountable?

      I assume that you mean parents hold me accountable? I get calls on a semi-regular basis from parents. They want to know why Jonny/Jill isn't doing well. It happens. In my class, I publicly berate the student WHO IS AN ADULT for having their Mommy and Daddy call me. It's a matter of time before this gets me fired.

      Does your Mommy make sure you go to work everyday?

      Nope - she doesn't support my lifestyle at all.

      This attitude that these are children to be coddled is not helping.

      Why are you not failing these folks?

      I think you missed my point. My point is that the attitude that students are there to be GIVEN information, not to earn it, and that EVERYONE is a genius is pervasive. I said nothing about how I do business (I fail the ones that earn it). I really don't think you understood what I said.

      If a student could test out and get the credit hours, you and your 2 students who don't need it would be much happier.

      At my school, we have CLEP tests. The two intro classes I teach are eligible for CLEP. SO. . . . The people taking this class have already failed those exams, and yet still, despite actual, concrete evidence to the contrary, believe that they are smarter than this class and don't need it. It's like there is no logic in a self-important, hand-held student these days.

    73. Re:Disconcerting? by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      What's the point of nitpicking process verbosity? If the student is getting the answers correct on an open answer test then he's mastered the material. Now, if he gets an answer wrong, and he shows a partially correct process, then the prof can give him partial credit, and if he didn't show anything, he takes the full hit. That's fair.

    74. Re:Disconcerting? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      The jury is still out on that question. You might enjoy this PDF. It might even alter your thinking on your question.

      https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2239412

      I've read it three times now, over the course of a week or so. Yeah - IMHO, surveillance is worrisome.

        Filter error: That's an awful long string of letters there.
      Instead of the PDF, you get the web page, with a download link.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    75. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      If I was a student and you shared my information with my parents I would be going to the dean. These are adults. You should inform the parents that you cannot discuss another adults private information with them. Tell them to ask their child if they want that information.

      Have you considered mentioning this to the students? Hell, make a big production of checking if they should be in the class and then announce to everyone that Jimmy got a 45% on the CLEP(whatever that is) and therefore it looks like he badly need this class.

    76. Re:Disconcerting? by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Why read the textbook when it's an untameable mass of block text with paragraph long runons and incomprehensible formula syntax? Were all those subscripts really necessary? How about all those greek letters and symbols most people are never taught? That doesn't help anyone, esp when many professors force this crap on their own students when they're forced to buy his unreadable textbook...for $95.

    77. Re:Disconcerting? by berashith · · Score: 2

      My normal experience from trying to actually show knowledge of a subject usually ends up running into an instructor with the attitude that you just presented. Instead of being allowed an opportunity to show/discuss my current understanding, I get treated as if I think I am a special little snowflake. Then I am told to prove it on the test, which I do. And then I am still forced into a bucket with the average groups. It is fun when the instructors are all so pissed off and jaded that they hate trying to pass knowledge on, and just despise their daily role. I understand the situation, as I have watched my wife grow from a very interested teacher of college level high school kids to someone who has burned out so badly that she is moving back to the corporate world. My current real life has me going back to college for a business degree, after 13 years in datacenter/sysadmin roles, and I am actually answering questions like what does a NIC do, what does http stand for, and which protocol is wireless? There are parts of the class that may be useful, but I am not getting my moneys worth from that nonsense.

    78. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Because it is hard to judge how well a student knows the answer if he just took a multiple-choice-guess test. By requiring full verbosity all the time you get a better insight into what the student knows.

      Knowing why he missed a question can be as important as which question he missed assuming you want to use that information to improve the class.

    79. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It'll also flag students who prefer reading a paper book instead of an e-reader, such as myself.

    80. Re:Disconcerting? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At that point, textbooks basically become a reference. That was the case for most of my college courses. Even if I wanted to use them to actually learn something, many of them were so horribly written. I had to look up the "how-to" elsewhere. By college, learning should be self directed anyway. Metrics such as "how many pages read" or even class attendance shouldn't factor into grading at all (ridiculous in the age of distant learning courses).

    81. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would parents hold an adult accountable?
      Does your Mommy make sure you go to work everyday?
      This attitude that these are children to be coddled is not helping.

      By the point they get to college it is usually too late.

      These 'adults' learn the hard way (we all did this) that the prof really does not care if you learn it or not. They are there and I quote 'to do research not teach you'. Sink or swim. I have seen parents arguing down lower level teachers about bad grades that the student deserves. Just so that special snowflake can get into some school or other.

      So parents need to teach accountability, for later on. The need to make sure they do their work, for later on. As by the time it really matters the kid will be screwed royally. Coddled? No, they need to be held accountable. Thats not coddling. Coddling is going and yelling down a teacher over a bad grade.

    82. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would not have been so contemptuous of having to take English, a thoroughly worthless course, in college, had I not had to pay several thousand dollars for the privilege. The material covered in that class was not different than what was covered in my high school courses, nor has it helped me in any way, shape, or form in my career or the rest of my life. It was, and remains, a waste of six hours of courses that I could have put to real use. Similarly, the Sci-Fi and Fantasy colloquium I took is also useless, but at least I did not already know all of the material and it was fun. English was neither.

    83. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm sure writing the script with a delay and letting it run overnight instead of in 30 seconds would fix that.

    84. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Let me clarify. I meant the GP believing these are children is what lead to some of this coddling. They are adults, treat them as such. Any parent who calls a professor should simply be told that they cannot discuss the students grades or performance for reasons of privacy.

    85. Re:Disconcerting? by eleuthero · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Professors/teachers do. Our society has moved from a culture that values individual initiative to one that demands everything put on a silver platter and hand delivered. There are various web comics drawn to describe the tendency of our culture from the 50s forward to put more and more burden on the teacher rather than the student. If I teach a lesson with a reading, listening, writing, speaking, building, and acting component, anyone who participates should be able to catch at least part of what I am instructing (I've used nearly every general category of learning reinforcement). Yet I still find many students who do not participate. These students come from good homes, I have positive relationships with their parents and with them and a healthy class environment, AND yet I still have students who have "good days" and "bad days".

      Learning is a choice and it does not have to happen even in the best class (and I while I am certainly not perfect, I have one of the best classes I've had in years).

    86. Re:Disconcerting? by Bucc5062 · · Score: 1

      [rant]
      This hits the nail on the head of an issue in business that has bugged me since I stated working in programming (way too many years ago). I'd be given an assignment, a due date, and told to get to work. So off I go and finish just ahead of time. My reward, more work. It's like running a race, crossing the finish line and told, keep running. What starts to happen is the productivity actually slows to the expectation, not the capability, because it is negative reward. I've seen these "go getters" that I've had to support to help them finish and then see them promoted or given slaps on the back, because they knew how to glad hand better then me. Don't want to be a team player and just let them sink, then you become to asshole who wont play nice.

      American business so so screwed up this way, where we punish skill, speed, quality while rewarding the thin cover over a sham artist. Programming is not factory work, it is not a fill 500 holes with bolts in 8 hours type of work, yet it is consistently managed as such. Makes me ponder if this country had actual managers, not just supervisors or baby-sitters were we'd be today. I'm all for helping others (on a team and in life), but I just don't want that help to be translated to punishment just as I don't play some political game (God, I'm still naive after all this time).
      [/rant]

      --
      Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    87. Re:Disconcerting? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 2

      It doesn't matter. A friend of mine taught at a private non-profit accredited university for many years. Despite basically giving the entire class the answers to a test in the form of a pre-test review, they all managed to fail the test. The school brass put pressure on him to pass at least some of the students. This was after spoon feeding them a test that even his wife was able to pass (who has zero college level education and zero knowledge of the field the test covered).

    88. Re:Disconcerting? by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      Teaching at a private university myself and having done public and private both, everything is tied to a money game. Money is tied to successful alumni (either through direct giving or from foundations that consider what happens to graduates) and having alumni, of course, requires graduation. Higher graduation rates depend on high individual class success. Class success is viewed as tied to grades. The value of the bachelor's degree in the US has dropped substantially in the last 20 years and it is no wonder that there is a push for online education. It is cheaper than physical teaching, it provides a readier supply of students and income and since an internship is the only way to be sure that a student is learning anything related to their chosen field anyway (in many cases), why not?

    89. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a tad confused. Why are you even slightly concerned that the attitude in college is "you have to teach me, good luck"? It's not like they pay the college based on their grade. They pay beforehand, and fi they should decide not to go to class, that's their own perogative. If anything, actively attempting to force knowledge into an unwilling mind is just reinforcing their earlier, horrendously misguided belief that this is the purpose of college.

      Perhaps you should just... teach the class, and only provide additional help to those who specifically ask for additional help. It's actually a life lesson then. They might actually learn that just because they grew up with parents who gave them everything, the rest of the world isn't going to hand them everything on a silver platter too. Well, unless you count a paper with a big red F on it 'everything'.

      After horribly failing a semester or two, they'll realize that all of their friends in college are *gasp* not going to be in any of the same classes, because they're... y'know... in the next class, instead of retaking the first one, and he discovers that one cannot do that without passing the first one.

      Although, given you're so angry about having to force learning onto students, I'm going to assume that your pay is probably tied to how many people PASS your class, as I've heard a lot of teachers tend to be paid in that manner. Therefore, it's in your best interest to give as many people a C or higher (or D, if that counts as a 'pass' in your area). It seems you at least have the scruples to not stoop to just giving a C to everyone no matter what they turn in, but are stuck attempting to force knowledge onto those not wanting to learn so that you can have as high as passing rate as possible.

      So perhaps THAT is what you should attempt to change first, since that's going to be what's affecting your job more than anything else. If you can get paid the same no matter how many students pass, then you don't have to worry about repeating the same information over a million times so that the 3 clearly-not-paying-attention students will get it stuck in their heads at least until exam time, and can instead teach at your own rate, with new and interesting information every day.

      Course, to change something like that means arguing with the college higher-ups, and as we all well know, you might as well be arguing with a bag of oranges.

    90. Re:Disconcerting? by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      The only exception I've seen to this is AP test credits. Even those can be hard to "redeem" at some schools. Meanwhile, there are schools that will give you credit for verified life experience in various areas.

    91. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A VAST majority just see stuff like what you say spouted constantly on-line and by there ignorant ass friends.

      Sounds like you skip the material too.

    92. Re:Disconcerting? by calzones · · Score: 1

      The inverse problem with A for Effort is that it unfairly penalizes people who can ace things without putting in apparent effort.

      --
      Asking people to think is like asking them to buy you a new car
    93. Re:Disconcerting? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      We have these wonderful organizational structures, such as tables of contents, chapters, sections, and even an index!

      Who would have thought!

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    94. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does 'sharing my information with a family member that already knows enough to call' == go to dean but you recommend telling the whole class of strangers 'Jimmy is an idiot that failed the exam'

    95. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there > they're

    96. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There != They're

    97. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was the AC that also replied to you just minutes ago. Clearly, I should have read this reply of yours before posing my own reply.

      But my point still stands... why are you so angry about this? So you're willing to fail them. GOOD! Problem solved.

      One of several things will happen to them in the future, neither of which you have any control over. a) They're stuck working flipping burgers, getting a valuable life lesson that the rest of the world isn't going to put up with their shit, and might one day come back to attempt to actually TRY to learn on their own. b) Their rich mommy and daddy will continue to provide everything for them, and they will continue to be a self-entitled asshole the rest of their life, eventually becoming yet another asshole 1%er. c) Mommy and Daddy will get pissed off at him being completely fucking useless even as an adult, and kick him out, where then goes back to A.

      So just chill. If a parent calls, I assume you tell them that all students are given the same test, that 89% of students passed the test (or whatever the percent is), and that if Johnny/Jill isn't passing, then they can speak with their son/daughter instead of you. If they keep yelling... well shit, not like they're the ones signing yoru paycheque. If you're friendly enough with your supervisor/manager/dean/whatever higher-up you have, send him an email amusingly saying that X student's parents are wondering why the kid who doesn't pay attention and skips class isn't doing well, and that they seem like the type that will probably go above your head to protect their perfect angel, so just a heads up. Or if the dean is understanding enough (I imagine they probably are, but you never know... could just be there because of the silver spoon in THEIR mouth when being born), just wait for that to happen and let the class statistics and data speak for itself.

      But stop getting worked up about it. So a kid is throwing his education away. Guess who'll most likely find out a few years down the road that doing so wasn't in the best of interests. Not your problem.

    98. Re:Disconcerting? by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      You already have a way to see if students do 'the god damned work': If they're passing the exams/labs/writing assignments, then they should pass the class whether they read the book or not. If they're passing the exams but still cannot demonstrate mastery of the material, then your tests suck.

      Your rant suffers from political correctness disease. Just use 'he' or 'she' exclusively and the sentences will flow a lot better. Gender doesn't matter with abstract references.

    99. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That, people IS the GOOD way to cheat.

      I would've give you 0 but I admire you.

    100. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you learned the equations. You had to learn them inorder to reprogram you calculator each time.

      That doesn't sound like cheating to me, that sounds like "learning the material and repeatedly demonstrating it on the test"

    101. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Because both serve a purpose.

      Jimmy could also be told that during office hours, or just a general statement that the only people here failed that test.

    102. Re:Disconcerting? by Scarred+Intellect · · Score: 1

      Some schools are even requiring faculty to carry cellphones and be on call so that when Little Johnny Baseballhat realizes he needs an answer, we can turn to and present.

      Holy fucking shit are you serious?! What about the parents? Where the fuck are they?

      Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you, that you're not implying that your required to be available so that students can call you on your off-hours for a question on homework. Please tell me this isn't what you meant.

      I've had teachers in the past who gave us their numbers (I'm talking high-school, here) voluntarily, but none were every required to.

    103. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Stopped reading at "there ignorant ass friends". Sorry, but I have a hard time believing your opinion on English matters if you can't even properly use it.

    104. Re:Disconcerting? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "... but just because data could be incorrectly used doesn't make it inherently worrying."

      Yes, it does.

      This doesn't really tell you anything meaningful about an individual. Everybody studies differently, and a technique that works well for one person may not work well or at all for another.

      Some people like to take copious notes while listening to a lecture or reading a text. Others prefer to pay more attention to the original material and forego the notes. Etc. There is a whole spectrum here. So what is this supposed to accomplish?

      Which brings us to this famous quote from a President who was mostly unremarkable: Lyndon B. Johnson.

      "You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered."

      This is not legislation, of course, but the point is: whenever you do something like this, you are obliged to weigh the good AND the bad that it may do. Considering that there is scant evidence that it will do much good, but there is great potential for abuse, offhand I would call this a bad thing.

    105. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you work in the field you teach?

    106. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And next, to cover their tracks, the students will learn to flip the pages so that they seemingly have been reading.

    107. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Results are what matter, teaching kids any different is a disservice to them and the society they join.

      Good point. We should never treat children differently than adults. If an adult doesn't work, or work well enough, they may get fired. Being unemployed for a long time may lead to losing your home and skipping a lot of meals. So in order to teach a six year old about real life, if he doesn't do his homework well enough you should stop feeding him and make him sleep outdoors. We are just way too lenient with kids these days.

    108. Re:Disconcerting? by PRMan · · Score: 1

      When I was a professor (BASIC Programming), I realized that students might already know BASIC. Even though they couldn't officially test out of it, I offered to let students take the final exam the first week and take the grade as their class grade. I even offered to go ahead and still let them take the class if they didn't like their grade, so they had nothing to lose. I had one student that was tempted (he really knew BASIC well and needed some free time in his crammed schedule), but ultimately nobody took me up on it. I was very surprised, because I absolutely would have gone for that offer.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    109. Re:Disconcerting? by PRMan · · Score: 1

      A VAST majority just see stuff like what you say spouted constantly on-line and by their ignorant ass friends.

      Are you sure they need your English class?

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    110. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AC here again. I agree. My point is by the point they are in college it is too late for any accountability to be taught without hard lessons. It is much easier to teach a 4 year old 'you need to do this' vs a head strong 19 yr old 'adult' who thinks they have it all worked out. Coddling starts at a much earlier point in the kids education... Which is why you get parents who 'butt in' at the highest level. My parents if I got a bad grade in college did not go to my teachers they went to *me* the source of the problem.

      I saw one person posting in here they got a 3.0 vs a 4.0 on some class because they skipped the class even though they aced the tests/homework. Newsflash to that guy. Part of going to college is going to class for some teachers. They usually make it clear on the first day what sort of teacher they are.

    111. Re:Disconcerting? by excelsior_gr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Where I studied getting flunked was quite the norm. The tests were very hard and the professors didn't give a rat's ass about what percentage of the students passed their test. It was tough, disappointing but taught us a thing or two in the long run. Now I heard that a lot of universities check what percentage passed and blame the professor if their numbers are too low. Some professors could use the GP's argument in order to maintain high standards in an exam: Yes, 90% failed the test, but look! Most of them didn't even bother to read the book's cover.

    112. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I teach in college

      (entry-level/mid level English)

      A VAST majority just see stuff like what you say spouted constantly on-line and by there ignorant ass friends.

      there ignorant ass friends

      there

      FACEPALM

    113. Re:Disconcerting? by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      He could not write a simple sort on the board without consulting his notes, but somehow I was supposed to waste my time in his class.

      This. To the teachers everywhere: How about inspiring the students to read your material/attend your class instead of merely counting the pages read/hours attended? Like someone else pointed out above, totally the wrong metric for judging understanding and competence.

    114. Re:Disconcerting? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      My problem is why does effort matter?

      "Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration." -Edison

      In the real world we care about results not effort. If you have to reduce your department head count by one and your have to to select from the lazy guy who gets all his work or a hard worker bee who never completes his assigned takes, lazy will still be collecting a paycheck while the hard worker will be on unemployment.

      In the real world we call people who never do their work lazy, not the guy who completes his every assignment. But perhaps these words have different meanings in your world.

      Results are what matter, teaching kids any different is a disservice to them and the society they join.

      So consider the results of teaching them that effort doesn't matter.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    115. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

      Right! The only data gained here is "time spent reading what I told this person to read." What BS.

    116. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      That was me.

      No where in the syllabus was attendance mentioned. Nor should it ever be required for a university level class.

    117. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      I would guess that this will be mostly used to protect the professor's back. So what if a student doesn't read the material, when it comes down to it and the student scores poorly on an exam, the professor can bring up their statistics and point out that it's the student's fault, not theirs.

      So it's really a ploy to make sure the teachers don't have to carry the burden of proof anymore, and also frees the universities of bad teaching methods to increase their data-based chances of getting funding. Brilliant! And the idiots at the top are dumb enough to consider this even half-relevant.

      Just for some fun, let's see the degrees that every individual who votes for this and approves it have.

    118. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Metrics such as "how many pages read" or even class attendance shouldn't factor into grading at all (ridiculous in the age of distant learning courses).

      Sorry to butt in, but I copyright that idea as the base thesis and data for my next book: A book of metrics that must be read with metrics to gather more metrics. Wait, this sounds like hit counts on a (-web) page!

      /snark

    119. Re:Disconcerting? by steveg · · Score: 1

      If my students don't do the work and I fail them, my chair doesn't mind a bit. My dean doesn't get involved, nor does the provost, since they're on the management side of the fence, not the academic side. It's not their call. I suppose if we had big donors and their children were in one of my classes there might be some blowback, but so far that hasn't happened. Our donors, such as they are, tend to be corporations, not individuals.

      I did fail a professor's son once for cheating. He fought it and ended up taking the F and the letter in his file. As far as I know his dad didn't get involved.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    120. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      The instructor does not need to know, if it is meaningful to him, he is a poor instructor. His job is to present the class, offering the readings and hold tests. Not to be your babysitter.

      This used to be said about all teachers in all schools and it's dwindling. Pretty soon we'll have tax-funded babysitters in every classroom for every student. Yes, I exaggerate there but it isn't too far from the damn truth.

    121. Re:Disconcerting? by neokushan · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but if I'm honest, I don't see what harm could come from having additional statistics on a student's progress. Hell, extrapolate this further, imagine if you had a statistical breakdown of attendance, course competition (i.e. reading the materials, handing in assignments, etc.), attention span in lectures and so on - imagine you could measure every little detail. If students score highly in those stats, but still fail, it's a simple enough conclusion - the professor has failed. Likewise, if they score lowly in the stats and fail, the professor can be sure he's not at fault.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    122. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that will be great for you when you fail "Johnny Baseballhat " and kick his ass out of the "Jonathan Baseballhat School of Business" which his father paid for. Good Ol Boys don't let "grades" get in the way of their kids graduating.

      Lawsuit follows.

    123. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 2

      Hear, hear. I know a university professor of applied engineering who goes through the same problem with their students in every class. The more you simplify something, the more alcohol the student consumes, believing that this class it really easy. The more complex you make it, the more students group together to complain about the horrible unfairness of the instructor and the misplacement of the students who can follow.

      I'm dizzy just thinking about it.

    124. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Teaching at a private university myself and having done public and private both, everything is tied to a money game. Money is tied to successful alumni (either through direct giving or from foundations that consider what happens to graduates) and having alumni, of course, requires graduation. Higher graduation rates depend on high individual class success. Class success is viewed as tied to grades. The value of the bachelor's degree in the US has dropped substantially in the last 20 years and it is no wonder that there is a push for online education. It is cheaper than physical teaching, it provides a readier supply of students and income and since an internship is the only way to be sure that a student is learning anything related to their chosen field anyway (in many cases), why not?

      I'd like to know how your scoring system works; the instructor I know has to lower the baseline for passing and all of the other grade divisors, as well, when large numbers of students fail and/or get low grade averages. To shorten it, a failure student becomes a B student and gets a fucking diploma. The guy on the street who has been working with the applied pieces of the science is refused a job because Mr. College Degree rates higher on the hiring company's "HR Security" charts.

    125. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you cannot read by end of First grade, you should be repeating.

      in my first grade class there was a kid that couldn't read at all. he did have to repeat the grade, but that was 20 years ago.

      on the other hand, there were a large number of kids in my high school that couldn't read past a probably 4-5th grade level.

    126. Re:Disconcerting? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Some professors do care if pages are read, or will once they realize that this is an easy metric to gather.

      Well, it's a business school, so that is just karma getting a head start :).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    127. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I meant a person who is lazy and gets his work done but never seems to be working. Meaning he completed the tasks quickly and spent most of his time goofing off.

    128. Re:Disconcerting? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Thank you, Captain Kirk. I'd heard you did some re-programming for the Kobayashi Maru test, but wasn't aware that it involved a TI-83.

      P.S. What the hell has happened to /.? The parent remark has been there over 3 hours and not one mention of this reference? And you dare call yourself nerds?!

    129. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but if I'm honest, I don't see what harm could come from having additional statistics on a student's progress. Hell, extrapolate this further, imagine if you had a statistical breakdown of attendance, course competition (i.e. reading the materials, handing in assignments, etc.), attention span in lectures and so on - imagine you could measure every little detail. If students score highly in those stats, but still fail, it's a simple enough conclusion - the professor has failed. Likewise, if they score lowly in the stats and fail, the professor can be sure he's not at fault.

      You raise a good point.

      What happens when you have a student that understands the true concept or mechanism behind something but can rarely give a clean answer because the question is always too open-ended? Simplified and dumb example: "What is the best way to get from cost savings point A to cost savings point B when you have seven offers of lowered price points, all similar in quality and consumer satisfaction as the product you are selling at savings point A today?"

      My answer would be "Well, ummmm.... uhhhhh.. there are a lot of variables to be played with in that analysis, along with some unknowns. I think the first and best method would be to get external data to show what the overall level of satisfaction is at the current cost savings level, but...."

      Then I get an "F".

      To finish what I was saying, "..... but there are several different routes that we can take to get to that conclusion, all of which have different costs of their own. Why don't we just hold off on examining this situation until we can find better data points to work with, some of which may cost nothing but time; maybe one week."

      The instructor says, "The correct method to use is to find the best average of the quality -vs- cost of the seven offers, then negotiate with the higher-in-quality of the two to provide a lower price point without changing their model."

      I ask how the instructor came up with that idea being the best one out of thousands of possible scenarios which haven't even been thought about yet.

      Instructor's response: "Because it's in the fucking text book. Get out of my face; I have work to do."

      All of the junk is made up above, but that's the BS I've had to deal with in all areas of education with the exception of English; that teacher could explain very well what importance levels existed and why they existed, citing historical and present-day references. ;)

    130. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting A/C as already modded.

      Well, Loughla, good luck with the anger-management classes.

      Since you're "an advanced learner", and teach English, I'm sure you'll pick up on the proper uses of "their" and "there" real soon now.
      If not, you can always fall back on your extensive grasp of profanity.

      Shame, I think you had an interesting point to make there, but it just got lost in the vomit.

    131. Re:Disconcerting? by idunham · · Score: 0

      Not they're, not there, but "their ... friends".

      If you are going to correct someone's grammar, at least do it right.

    132. Re:Disconcerting? by MDillenbeck · · Score: 1

      A couple more things to add: First, my concern is that a professor would use such a system as a component of your grade. For example, make 10% of your grade "reading the pages" so that you can only get an A if you do all the reading (or do perfect in the class and do half the reading). However, as my wife says, college is "about learning what not to do" - I physically cannot keep up with the 100 page reading assignments of 2 or 3 classes a semester between class time, lab time, and work (in part because I read 10 pages an hour typically, and even less when I am reading critically to learn the material). I tried to do everything and failed miserably, and now that I am being more selective I am doing much better.

      Second, and more importantly, it is used to sell e-text books. I can spend $160 and buy a physical textbook for 2 semesters and put it on my shelf - or I can spend $100 and have access to it for 2 semesters. What if I want to skip 1 semester of a 2 semester class because a better course is offered at that time? Then I get to buy the book again for $100 for 2 semesters - and if I want to refresh my basic skills later on in life, then I can buy it again for $100. It is the model that Microsoft is trying to push with Office 360 or what Steam, iTunes, etc are pushing - you are not buying a product, you are licensing it. It is only a lease, and if you want continued access you have to keep licensing it. Greater profits for the companies and disenfranchisement for the poor (who no longer have access to cheap educational sources - such as myself, who used used book stores to get 5 year old textbooks for $5-20).

    133. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      I am serious. As in a colleague left for another place, and the new school issued him a cell phone for his students to use. He's supposed to be available and answering that phone between 8am and 8pm. He doesn't have an office, but a table in a room with other professors. His starting pay is $55k/yr.

    134. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      Everything you say is true except for those two words (or one hyphenated word) "tax-funded"; public university these days is tax-supported. The majority of funding no longer comes from the taxpayers but from tuition. That's why tuition is so high and ALSO one reason why schools are inflating grades. We have to keep you enrolled to get your cash. Failing you out means we're cutting our own throat. So, sure, we do all sorts of remediation and development, but we also admit students who simply are very unlikely to make it. (Their money is still green, after all.) AND, we also compete with other schools. So each school tries to be more accommodating than the other, and it ends up in a downward spiral, at least in terms of the demands we make on students. This is an unfortunate outcome of the students-as-consumers model for education. (As opposed to education as a public service, public good, public necessity or whatever noun you want to throw after the adjective public.)

    135. Re:Disconcerting? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "but just because data could be incorrectly used doesn't make it inherently worrying."

      Yes. You would have known this answer if you had picked up your e-dictionary the day the class was learning the word worrying.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    136. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      My dean at Appalling State University is famous for saying "Your students deserve a grade." To an extent there was pressure at one big R1 at which I taught, and at another big R1, pressure was, well, here's a story about it: I gave a kid an F, which he richly deserved, for cheating his bright shiny little buns off. His father, Daddy Donor, called up, and the department chair spent half of Friday calling me to apprise me of this, concluding each call with "But there's no pressure." I caved around 2pm. Note: I was teaching on a year-to-year contract and had a wife and a new baby, so I'm moderately proud I stuck it out through several phone calls.

    137. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      True!

      Okay, how about socialist education, capitalist business (and the socialist education has to present capitalist society information in its lessons)? :)

    138. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      "Get a job at a private university." Oh man. I'm kicking myself. Why didn't I think of that before?

    139. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure if you are still in school now or not ... but if you are ... did this professor give you a syllabus along with his grading formula/requirements at the beginning of the class? Did it require attendance and/or class participation and what percentage(s) applied to your grade? If he did not say that attendance and or participation was required or part of your grading ... then you need to get with the department chair and or university officials and get your grade adjusted based on the metrics he outlined originally.

      I've experienced this exact same scenario 10 years ago in college. A prof. outlined the exact course requirements and how he would grade (and weighting) in his syllabus on the first day. Attendance and class participation were NOT part of the grading. Only went to class about 4 times after that ... all of which were midterm and final and assignment "hand in " days. I earned an A based on my test results and assignments, he gave me a B because he was pissed I aced his tests without going to ANY of his lectures. Got my grade adjusted after appealing to chair. Needless to say, his course syllabus subsequently included class participation as portion of grading.

    140. Re:Disconcerting? by steveg · · Score: 1

      My high school chemistry/physics teacher gave us each a blank 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper and told us we could bring it to the final. Anything we had written on it was legal.

      He told us that if we hand wrote all our "cheat notes" we would never use them, since by writing them we would end up learning the material. He was mostly right.

      When I got to the university, the physics department had the same policy. Their only rules were "no machine generated content" and "one side only." You had to hand write it.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    141. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      I responded to a similar sentiment you expressed in reply to me above, but having scrolled down, I realize that maybe I should make it clear what you're asking. The job market for most professorships is very, very bad. The parent above and I are both English profs. A decent tenure-track professor line will get 150 to 800 applications, with the median probably around 250. We're expendable. The situation is the same for math and sciences; though the numbers are probably a bit lower, they're proportionate to the rate of graduation. So, anyway, I'm expendable. If I fail too many students, I might not get tenure. Or I might not get promotion. Or a raise. And I have a family to feed and student loans to service. So, asking me to Just Do the Right Thing is also asking me to cut my own throat and screw over my own children. The reason we're online griping about it is because we'd love to be kicking ass and taking names.

    142. Re:Disconcerting? by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      Documentation helps everything (unfortunately it is also part of the problem). Those I fail, fail, regardless of class percentage--it is usually low but there are occasions when it is above the magic "15%" I've heard is the unwritten rule.

      At my university job, all assignments are turned in electronically, plagiarism checked automatically and then left for me to grade... cuts out waiting around for a student who "left the paper in his car, please please please wait for a few minutes". This of course, even with a plagiarism check, allows for a careful student to cheat--but then, that's always been possible provided someone is motivated enough to look for the "easy" (often more work or at least more money than doing the assignment) way out.

      As far as the diploma'd guy getting a job with your company over the experienced guy, I hope they are also looking at internship experience because I wouldn't hire more than about 1 in 10 of the students I see for anything other than McDonald's. I say this not because they aren't capable but because they aren't motivated and perhaps more importantly haven't really decided what they want to do in life.

    143. Re:Disconcerting? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      We teachers provide the necessary 1% inspiration; it's up to students to provide the perspiration.

    144. Re:Disconcerting? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe his thoughts were like this:

      Hmmm ... that would be quite great ... but it's very unusual. I wonder if the administration would accept that ... there are surely some rules this violates ... sure, the professor probably has checked the rules, but who tells me that he didn't overlook something ... and if there's something wrong with it, I ultimately failed the class, just because of some stupid rule hardly anyone knows about. No, I'm not going to take that risk.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    145. Re:Disconcerting? by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      No wonder they complain, an English teacher using "there" instead of "their"? ;)

      Most of my classes are on-line, but I occasionally I get the opportunity to take a class in a classroom based setting. I took the standard freshman English/Writing course about 2 years ago. The class was a mix of students like myself (adult, full time job, part time student) and recently out of high school students. Out of both groups I saw quite a bit of the attitude you stated (granted not from everyone). The fun part about it though was that the teacher liked class discussion and peer review of our work, so at least once a week we were swapping drafts and providing constructive criticism to each other.

      A few things I got out of the peer review:

      1. Relative to my peers in that class, I am a much better writer than I thought I was. Note: I am not trying to say I was the best in the class or anything, I've never considered myself to be a good writer, but contrasting my work against quite a few of the other students gave me some confidence in my abilities. Additionally the teacher went out of her way to e-mail me and thank me for actually submitting something worth reading, which was a nice ego-boost if a little unprofessional on her part.

      2. The ones doing the complaining about not needing the course were typically the worst writers in the class. I don't even think they were half-assing it. Some of that stuff was literally painful to read!

      Then again, I approach every class with an open mind, even if I feel I don't need the course. Even if I have to repeat a course (not every credit is accepted everywhere) I generally find it to be worthwhile as it lets me improve and dig a little deeper.

    146. Re:Disconcerting? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      If he has nothing to do, he is supposed to be busy reading Slashdot! ;-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    147. Re:Disconcerting? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      If you have already trouble just because a few Greek letters appear in the formulas, well, maybe this is not the right subject for you. Here's a hint: Nobody cares about the original meaning of the letter. All that matters is that you can easily recognize it after you've seen it a few times, and that it's not too hard to write it down.

      Also, there are standard notations which just involve Greek letters, and your instructor would do you a disservice if he replaced those by Latin letters, just as an English teacher who decided that the difference between "there", "their" and "they're" is too hard for the students and would consistently use "there" for all of those in his teaching would do his students a disservice.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    148. Re:Disconcerting? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      At a college level nobody should even care if you attend classes, so long as you learn the material.

      I don't buy into this. The real value a college course offers that your public library does not is a professor to ask questions and an opportunity to discuss with people who are encountering the material at the same time you are.

      Similarly if your school has big lectures with 500 people and nobody in class knows your name you are not getting your moneys worth either.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    149. Re:Disconcerting? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

      Right! The only data gained here is "time spent reading what I told this person to read." What BS.

      Wrong. The actual data gained is "time spent making the ebook reader display what I told this person to read".

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    150. Re:Disconcerting? by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      I've had good textbooks and bad textbooks. If the teacher is good, there is no need for me to open the textbook other than for homework. If the teacher is bad, then I usually need to spend more time reading the book in addition to any homework. Given that all my classes recently have been on-line, the textbook gets relied on more. Bad textbooks really hurt in this case as the teacher is typically less accessible (even if they are awesome). Various on-line resources can help, but sometimes a textbook can be so bad that it's hard to follow those resources.

      I just finished a Math course, ended up with an A in it, though my understanding of the material is rather weak (compared to how I normally fare in Math courses). The textbook used for the course was horrible, poor explanations, non-standard terminology and notation, bizarre order of material presentation.

      In most classes, if I struggle with a particular concept, I look for an appropriate on-line lecture (I typically like the MIT ones, though Khan Academy has been good to me as well) and fill in the gaps. Sometimes this isn't the textbooks fault, some concepts are just easier to get with a live explanation and demonstration. In this case, it was entirely the textbooks fault, in fact it was so bad that even the on-line lectures were ineffective. Why? Since the book used non-standard terminology and didn't follow the order of presentation used by most other references I looked to, I ended up having to go back and watch multiple lectures just to get a foundation for the lecture I needed. If I was a full-time student this wouldn't really be an issue for me, but as a part-time student with a demanding job and family, I have to balance school with everything else and unfortunately, I just didn't have the time to put in that extra effort. Of course, I shouldn't have had to in the first place since I am paying the school to teach me.

    151. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The understanding behind these is the thought "At some point a student will come up against something s/he cannot solve effortlessly, and since it's really hard to teach effort, we should reward it now so that they get used to working really hard." That way when there is a result that can only be obtained through hard work, the student will have the guts to achieve it.

      In practice, yeah, it simply teaches kids to pretend to try even when they can do whatever the task is easily, and arguably is worse than simply grading on results and letting the kids figure out for themselves that hard work is required sometimes.

    152. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I teach in college, and I see this attitude every fucking day.

      Have you considered that maybe you don't contribute much value, and you're really just giving them a fancy certificate of association with smart people?

      Somewhere along the way, the attitude in college shifted from the very collegiate ---I'm here to learn--- to the very secondary school

      Because now one NEEDs a college degree to get a good job, even if one never really wanted a college degree in the first place. It's an expensive signal of intelligence in an age with ever-increasing noise.

    153. Re:Disconcerting? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      ...just because ${X} could be incorrectly used doesn't make it inherently worrying.

      Yes, it does. Because it WILL be incorrectly used.

    154. Re:Disconcerting? by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      I love classes like this. It takes the emphasis away from rote memorization and places it on your ability to reason through a problem. Of course it also means that tests need to be written with this in mind.

      The only time anything needs to be memorized is if there is a definite need to be able to recall that information without referencing it.

    155. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      My favorite prof has a chair endowed for him, so he fails as many as he likes, gets benched from teaching for the rest of the year. Then next year does it all again. A rare gig I guess.

    156. Re:Disconcerting? by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      No, but if he fails to read you make him take first grade again.

      I am not saying don't treat them like kids, but don't totally hide the real world either.

    157. Re:Disconcerting? by dotar · · Score: 1

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

      That's why you have tests.

    158. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the syllabus stated that attendance factored into the grade then it was your fuck up.

    159. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good ol' H4rr4r. Double-down on the crazy offtopic rebuttals. Never acknowledge that your argument addresses none of what the parent said, or the strawmen you created in your previous replies.

    160. Re:Disconcerting? by steveg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, when management says "There's no pressure," or "This has nothing to do with that incident when..." then you know there *is* and it certainly *does*.

      I was on a year to year appointment when I gave an F to the professor's kid. I didn't worry too much, I knew the chair had my back, and there were no donors involved. Since then I became staff rather than faculty (well, part time faculty only) and am a bit more protected. Lower on the social ladder maybe, but overall better off.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    161. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In some of those cases I did ask, and was promptly denied for that class was a prereq for the next class.

      Introduction to grammar is a class you could've taken a second time... that "sentence" makes no sense.

    162. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The instructor does not need to know, if it is meaningful to him, he is a poor instructor. His job is to present the class, offering the readings and hold tests. Not to be your babysitter.

      His or _her_ job is to instruct the students on whatever the course material is. It often involves classwork, readings, and tests. But they can do it however the fuck they like.

    163. Re:Disconcerting? by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      If the student is getting the answers correct on an open answer test then he's mastered the material.

      How do you figure that? The student could have simply memorized a process that allowed him to answer the question without even understanding why said process works. Open answer, multiple choice... it doesn't really matter if the test is poorly designed.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    164. Re:Disconcerting? by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Tests rarely measure whether a student understands the material. You need well-designed tests, not just tests.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    165. Re:Disconcerting? by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      Also ideally it would have a random time between page turns. if done right it would be near impossible to tell the difference between the student or a script reading.

      after breaking the DRM, you could probably have the time per page vary based on the number of words, or even syllables in those words, as big words might need to be looked up.

    166. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our society has moved from a culture that values individual initiative to one that demands everything put on a silver platter and hand delivered.

      Yeah, that happens when you charge a quarter of a million tuition, screw us on housing/food/etc, even textbooks that are upgraded every year for no other reason than to gouge us, enroll far more students than you can handle, and intentionally grade on a curve so you can flunk half of us out.

      It's reaching the point where I want to take that $250,000 tuition, put it into stock investments, go flip burgers for a decade and a half, and then retire a millionaire. Oh, and hit the library to actually learn on my own. Which is more than my professors can manage!
      .

    167. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I teach in college,

      by there ignorant ass friends

      Keep in mind that I acted out in school because I was an advanced learner

      A remarkable lack of self awareness.

    168. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd use this tool, or something similar for homework assignments to try to determine why my students succeed/struggle - the (likely) correlation of starting assignments late leading to poor grades on that assignment/the next test might be something to talk about at the start of the next semester/after returning that test. While I try to be impartial, I do tend to inherently trust those that consistently do the homework more when they offer an excuse for an absence or request an extension. If someone asks for a last minute extension, it might be useful to know when they started the reading or assignment, e.g. "Oh, you started at 11 pm and couldn't finish by midnight when you had a week to do the assignment" vs. "You started on Monday, worked on it some Wednesday and Thursday, and still couldn't finish by Friday at midnight>". I've generally been fine with poor attendance when there is not an in-class assignment - I had group extension worksheets that could not be completed outside of class. That's an issue of doing the work rather than an attendance constraint though.

    169. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One complicating issue is that state funding often outweighs student tuition* in paying for college at state schools. That being the case, and poor retention/graduation rates being more of an issue for public schools, it is not quite so cut and dry as you say. It is also probably worth collecting the data and then enabling viewing later for voluntary monitoring or allowing anonymized data for analysis of how grades correlate with when readings were done, what readings were largely done/ignored by students, etc. When using online homework, I found it useful to be able to see which problems were giving students trouble to address those in future classes.

      *:Note that I am only talking about tuition, not comprehensive cost.

    170. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The goal is not to use this for grading but for early intervention/academic support. The athletic teams or other organizations that have a stake in how their members perform would LOVE something like this for keeping tabs on things. For some classes, particularly introductory lecture hall ones, this would be an excellent tool, for others it wouldn't mean much, but creating these tools should be a good thing for education overall.

    171. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If someone teaches for 15+ hours and 90% of the audience fails to grasp the basics, then they can't teach. Telling people to teach themselves the material is not a substitute. The textbook supplements and reinforces, it's not the primary teacher.

    172. Re:Disconcerting? by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      The data should be used to flag up pupils who may be struggling,

      How is this data going to show the pupils who are struggling? Isn't that what your tests and coursework is for?

    173. Re:Disconcerting? by chrismcb · · Score: 2

      I've never been a big fan of "grading on the curve" But there are two people involved, a student and a teacher. If everyone fails, is it because all the students are poor, or because the teacher is poor? It isn't a simple matter of "pass this test or else" The teacher should actually be teaching. And if too many students are failing, that is a good indication the teacher ins't doing their job.

    174. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a college-level English teacher, your choice of words is disappointing. And from your attitude toward your students, I wonder why you teach - clearly you do not enjoy it or them.

    175. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here, When I started my compuiter science courses in 1999 I had 135 students in the class, when I graduated in 2001 there were 29 left, and that was considewred a normal failure/dropout rate. Even scarier is the number of studens from the course that are even employed in the computer science field. In 2005 there were 8 left that were working or studying computer science at higher levels, and in 2012 there were 4 of us

    176. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they believe this, and worse, act on this, they are incompetent and doing everything about their jobs WRONG. It's that simple. That is absolutely NOT their job. They are NOT producing graduates of any value to the "real world". I DO live in a world where we DO NOT NEED the product these ass clowns are building.

    177. Re:Disconcerting? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      The danger here is substituting the easy to measure metric "Pages Read" for the much tougher "Material Understood".

      Right! The only data gained here is "time spent reading what I told this person to read." What BS.

      Wrong. The actual data gained is "time spent making the ebook reader display what I told this person to read".

      What?

    178. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and by there ignorant ass friends.

      You *teach* college English and can't use there/their correctly? I'm sorry, who is it that has the problem? Not sure it's the students.

    179. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "... there (sic) ignorant ass friends..."

      Sorry dude, had to be done.

    180. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I teach in college ... I have students who will tell me ... that this class isn't giving them anything (entry-level/mid level English), and that they shouldn't have to take it at all. Throughout the course of the semester, almost every student will tell me this. A VAST majority just see stuff ... by there [sic] ignorant ass friends.... Keep in mind that I acted out in school because I was an advanced learner, they do exist...

    181. Re:Disconcerting? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 1
      I would argue that it does. I have been accused of several things in my on-line persona: being a female, being a male, having bias against females, having bias against males, being gay, being straight, being asexual (that was a weird day). I would argue that gender neutral, on-line, generally becomes masculine, simply because of the stereotype of on-line nerdy kids that still exists today.

      My 'political correctness disease' in that post is a conscious choice to show that both females and males tend to overvalue their own skills where I teach.

    182. Re:Disconcerting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you teach entry-level/mid level English. And... ... and by there ignorant ass friends. ...

      Perhaps they are right in assuming that they don't get anything from the class. I don't usually point such trifles out, and Imay be wrong, perhaps it was just an overlook in a rant, but it can't be excused.

  3. BB with good intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    F that.

    I don't care about intent I care about ability. Intent can change unexpectedly.

    1. Re:BB with good intent by fermion · · Score: 2
      It is sad that some consider such micromanagement necessary for a college student. It is like taking roll. When I was in college prof came in, lectured, gave assignments, never mentioned or in larger classes knew who was there. Responsible adults know who to get where they need to be, and if they are not responsible they should not be in college or get a degree.

      So the problem is the good intent here is to help students be responsible. Of course one value of a college degree is that is shows that one can be responsible and get work done without supervision of excessive explanation. Instead of paying a supervisor or expensive training courses, the employer can just pay you large sums of money to get a job done. It is really win win.

      Unless, of course, college, with good intentions, begin to supervise students so they never learn how to be self motivated. Then we get the current generation of kids that have helicopter parents, and overbearing colleges, who write whiny books about how they were actually expected to do work, without specific instructions, after college.

      So really, give them the resources, give them useful tasks, and if a student does not choose to learn then fail them. If they can afford to take a class a second time, then maybe they will succeed. If they don't have the discipline, maybe college is not for them.

      As an aside, such things as this have not developed in a vacuum. Some Universities are under pressure to admit more students. Some Universities are under pressure to admit students who previously would not be admitted. Now, there is no problem with this. I believe that every student should have an opportunity to try University. There is no reason to set a threshold and say at this point one is not going to University. However, some are also thinking there should be graduation standards at Univeristy. For some, like for profit universities that accept on basis on ability to get a student loan, this makes sense. They are selling a product, and there should be some quality assurance. But many universities still sell opportunity to learn, and they should be allowed to vet student based on perceived ability, and then let the student sink or swim. If college is like High School, where we hand hold students through the process, then there really is no point in it.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    2. Re:BB with good intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      F that.

      I don't care about intent I care about ability. Intent can change unexpectedly.

      The road to hell is paved with good intentions. This is a classic case of the end (better education) justify the means (tacking you in an invasive manner). This is patently stupid anyway, regarless of the fact that it is wrong to do. It simply will not measure anything that will be of broad use. Both my parents were public school teachers and one was a principal, I am currently a PhD candidate that teaches labs. Measuring what and how long the students read will mean nothing. Also, some people read incredibly fast, others incredibly slow. So, how will you deal with that? What about people that take notes on a piece of paper? What about the students (who like me) hardly ever read any of the books in primary schoo, and literally stopped donig my own math homework in sixth grade and just copied others but was a 4.0 in every math course my primary school taught? I never really read through my biology books and now I am getting a PhD focusing on molecular methods and trends in evolution. What about all the students who can read all the want but it isn't gong to help?

      Even more disturbing to me, is that widespread use of things like this would leave a generation that is use to being spied upon and having their privacy invaded. What effect will that have on future laws? I, for one, will never accept this type of behavior and will die to protect my freedoms and the freedom of others.

    3. Re:BB with good intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is sad that some consider such micromanagement necessary for a college student. It is like taking roll.

      Attendance is necessary for certain Federal financial aid packages and the continuation of student visas (most foreigners are paying full fare). Colleges take roll to keep students from losing aid or visas. It's just a side effect of government involvement. Did you actually think colleges started to give a shit on their own?

    4. Re:BB with good intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "universities are under pressure to admit more students"???

      Imagine the government giving out a trillion dollars in cash and subsidized loans so more people could take taxis. Would you say taxis are "under pressure" to take more fares? No, they are "under pressure" to not miss the bonanza. Imagine also, if you will, that the government let the taxis companies themselves decide who is and is not allowed to operate a taxi (like colleges today). Do you really think there would be a large growth in the taxi fleet and an increase in the quality of service?

      Fuck no. Prices would just skyrocket because more dollars are chasing the same amount of goods.

    5. Re:BB with good intent by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The quote is scary independent of context. That it's someone with control over other people's lives is even worse. Big brother doesn't start looking over your shoulder for explicitly evil reasons. He looks over your shoulder for the children, or because terrorism, or because crime, or because lower taxes etc

    6. Re:BB with good intent by shimage · · Score: 1

      Maybe you are underestimating how troublesome "helicopter parents" can be. At a research institution, the path of least resistance (particularly for assistant professors) often involves simply pleasing all the students regardless of how stupid/lazy they may be. Incidentally, I learned this because I tried (as a TA) to fail students that had cheated on their term paper. None of them faced any negative consequences for their academic dishonesty. I cannot think of a good solution to the problem, but maybe you can.

  4. intent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent"

    Well, THAT makes it all ok...

  5. Aren't they all? by fox1324 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Aren't all 'big brother' systems put into place "with good intent"?

    1. Re:Aren't they all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you consider that most totalitarians deeply and fundamentally believe that everyone else is an ignorant dolt on the verge of (by action, inaction, or misaimed action) killing themselves and 40 others, it's always "with good intent."

    2. Re:Aren't they all? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      This article immediately reminded me of the part of Snow Crash where the US Government monitors its employees reading the memos and disciplines them for taking too long or not long enough - and how the good employees will go back to reference earlier parts of the memo, etc.

      Of course the employees were all basically gaming the system so they appeared to be doing it correctly.

    3. Re:Aren't they all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the positive spin. The negative spin is that it is put in place under the guise of good intent.

    4. Re:Aren't they all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      E.g a very large percentage of Slashdot posters

  6. The road to hell is paved with good intentions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, it's Big Brother, and you reap what you sow.

  7. "but with a good intent"???? by FooAtWFU · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

    -- C. S. Lewis

    (who, on a side-note, also wrote a snazzy novel which more or less served as the blueprint for 1984

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
  8. Make it a criminal act to read someone else's book by gelfling · · Score: 1

    Thereby forcing everyone to buy an ebook. All Hail

  9. Just test! by White+Flame · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they pass the test, who cares if they just learned from lectures, knew the material from beforehand, looked it up from another source, or other non-textbook methods of learning? The point is that, at the end of the class, the student can show they learned the material.

    1. Re:Just test! by Xugumad · · Score: 1

      Well, if they're doing this properly, it shouldn't be about whether the student learnt the material, but how.

      It should be used to show:

      Students who aren't engaging with the material, and may require early intervention
      Levels of interest in the material (would different material suit the learners better?)
      Problems with the material (are there particular parts many learners highlight and/or comment on? Could indicate confusion, for example)

    2. Re:Just test! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is a hard metric, this is an easy one. People love easy metrics, never mind if they are actually worth anything. With this you can make spreadsheets and powerpoint slides, those allow you have meetings and pretend to be important.

    3. Re:Just test! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      How would you deal with a student that already knew the material?

      He will read 0 pages, does not need intervention, has no interest in it or any other material about this topic and cannot tell if there are problems with the material or not.

      So long as he knows the material there is no problem to solve.

    4. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. I can't see a way how this technology could be used in measuring how well someone has learnt the material. However I can see many ways how this could be used to help students learn about themselves and how they study. Some people might just skim the material without realizing it themselves. You could draw a statistic between good grades and time spent reading the book ( would be interesting to see if there is a correlation ).

      Might also be usefull in developing better books.

    5. Re:Just test! by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      The problem is, tests become metrics which go beyond the single classroom and teacher - suddenly the school, the district, the national bodies and the PTAs all want access to the testing data, and they start to equate test metrics with teacher quality rather than student effort (when the reality is a mix of both).

      I don't see an issue with the features raised in the article, so long as the teachers do not solely rely on it - it does become a good way to ensure that pupils are spending time with the resources, and using them properly, and it allows teachers to spot pupils which aren't bothering at all, or are cramming in the early hours before the test, which is certainly something that should be raised at the PTA conferences if the pupil isn't doing well overall.

      So long as it doesn't replace a greater encompassing look at the student, its a good tool for following some aspects of their learning.

    6. Re:Just test! by mjtaylor24601 · · Score: 1

      How would you deal with a student that already knew the material?

      Well I'm no expert in education but I expect the conversation would go something like this:

      Professor:Hey Bob, I see on the computer here that you haven't been doing the required reading. Are you having trouble understanding something?

      Bob:No, I've just already studied this subject in the past.

      Professor:OK, great. Let me know if you have any questions.

      That is of course assuming it was used properly. I highly doubt any Professor worth the name is just going to summarily flunk every student that the computer says didn't do the reading.

      --
      I wish I were as sure of anything as some people are of everything
    7. Re:Just test! by LaggedOnUser · · Score: 1

      You're probably right. People who pass the test have nothing to complain about and don't cause problems. The teacher is unlikely to care if they actually read the material in that case. On the other hand, imagine the student who didn't pass. They can tell him, "You didn't pass because you didn't read the material, so you have nothing to complain about." His complaints will get nowhere. If nothing else, it makes their job defending themselves as educators easier. The one who never cracks the book then blames the teacher when he fails will no longer cause problems for them.

    8. Re:Just test! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Tests aren't always great metrics either. Some people are good at tests, while others are bad. Tests are too easily swayed by stress level, recent sleep patterns, and diet.

      Personally, I think teacher should get to know their students and talk to them rather than relying solely on metrics, but I understand that we don't think education is important enough to spend all that time on it.

    9. Re:Just test! by Lazere · · Score: 1

      That actually sounds like it could be a good idea, as long as you don't give it directly to the teachers/professors. I can see too many of them going "reading the book is worth n% of your final grade". I'm not sure I could actually support that.

    10. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The metric "passed the test" as just as bad as the metric "e-pages read" when used as a substitute for understanding the material.

    11. Re:Just test! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I will put even money on it that some will use it to drop students a letter grade or make reading the book X% of the class grade. This sort of thing is much easier than actually doing their jobs.

    12. Re:Just test! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Life is full of stress, poor sleep and bad diet.
      Tests are better because of those things, not worse.

      I agree a teacher doing a one on one evaluation would be even better, but if we spent money on that schools could not have such elaborate sports programs.

    13. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would you deal with a student that already knew the material?

      You would... see that they passed their exams, and not worry about them?

      Why are you harping on this? Nobody - well, aside from you - has suggested anywhere that "did the student read the book" will be used as the sole criteria for evaluation, or even as A PART of the criteria for evaluation.

      Instead, it will likely be paired with the results of exams to help the professor identify students who are struggling. If you read everything, and still fail the exams, obviously there's something you're not "getting" from the material. If you read nothing, and fail the exams, then perhaps your study habits need improvement. If the entire class is reading everything, and still fails the exams, perhaps the exam is a poor evaluation of their understanding, or perhaps the textbook (or the professor) is ineffectual. If the entire class has read nothing, and is acing the exams, then perhaps the course is too easy, and could offer more challenging content.

      All this does is help the professor zero in on where potential problems exist. At that point, it's up to him to reach out and have a conversation with the student(s) to find out what the problem might be. But yeah, your "ZOMG super smrt kidz will get FAILZORZ even if they still pass all the exams!" is stupid alarmist tripe.

      And, for what it's worth - if the smart kids are so smart, they'll also realize that it's trivially easy to game the system:
      1) Turn on Game of Thrones;
      2) open ebook.
      3) Watch boobs bounce on screen.
      4) Generate high 'engagement index' for yourself by paging idly through the book while you watch tv.
      5) Show up for class tomorrow, ace exam.
      6) Profit.

    14. Re:Just test! by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      You presume it will be used properly - which we both know WON'T BE .

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    15. Re:Just test! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Life is full of stress, poor sleep and bad diet. Tests are better because of those things, not worse.

      In my working life, I've never had to deal with an evaluation remotely similar to the SATs. Granted, if you have a job with a bunch of certifications and such, you might need to do some similar testing, but those certifications are also generally very poor metrics for determining competence.

    16. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, who cares if they never opened the book, but cheated on the test?

    17. Re:Just test! by Wookact · · Score: 1

      My college felt more like adult day care then anything. Now not all of the teachers did this, a few of them I left early every day, didn't show up, aced the tests and projects got an A. Others I missed two days and I was down to a B automatically. The one that really got me was when they used the students as labor in the computer labs. We had to go from student to student helping them with homework. My assigned time worked horribly into my schedule. I missed one day of "lab" and I had an instant F. The teachers rational was that I never called n, my rational was I told the teacher when the time was assigned that it would not work for me. It did not matter that I had the best reviews from the students and the lab instructors. I missed a day, I got an F.

    18. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Case in point: When I was in college studying computer science, I had to take a lot of science classes. Physics, chemistry, biology, etc. Most were of the "not my field, but I'm still a science major" variety, i.e. harder than the classes that the non-science majors had to take, but not as hard as the classes for people majoring in those disciplines.

      However, no doubt due to someone not really thinking things through, one of the other required classes for CS majors was a general science class designed for non science majors.

      I attended some of the lectures, skipped a lot of them, and the only studying I did was fifteen minutes on the day of each test just to refresh my memory.

      If the professor had monitored my reading and used that to determine my grade, I would have failed instead of having one of the highest grades in the class. I didn't cheat; I just happened to know the material better before I took the class than most of the students did after they took the class. And isn't gaining knowledge of the material the whole point of the class anyway?

    19. Re:Just test! by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      Students who aren't engaging with the material, and may require early intervention

      No student requires intervention. Engaging the material is his responsibility. If he doesn't engage the material and learn, your only responsibility is to fail him, not to hold his hand. This is pretty much true by the time you hit middle-school, much less college. I'll grant elementary school should require more hand-holding.

      Levels of interest in the material (would different material suit the learners better?)

      A good teacher will indeed know how to present the material in such a way that people respond to it, but that's independent of the student. You should have a passion for the material and be able to show what makes you passionate about it. If the students don't respond, then they have no interest in the material, you can't create that interest, and they can just fucking tough it out and learn anyway. I got plenty of A's in classes I didn't give a shit about.

      Problems with the material (are there particular parts many learners highlight and/or comment on? Could indicate confusion, for example)

      It's not your responsibility to find that out. It's the student's responsibility to ask you questions. If they're confused and don't ask questions, it's their problem. Stop treating college students like 5 year-olds.

    20. Re:Just test! by digitig · · Score: 1

      Even if there's a correlation, that doesn't mean anything for the individual student. Different people have different learning styles, and I can imagine somebody being penalised for having an unusual learning style rather than for not learning.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    21. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the students don't respond, then they have no interest in the material, you can't create that interest, and they can just fucking tough it out and learn anyway. I got plenty of A's in classes I didn't give a shit about.

      You're such a "follower" tool. Don't think or anything; that is only for the bad people. Conformism is the road to travel.

    22. Re:Just test! by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      That is a hard metric, this is an easy one. People love easy metrics, never mind if they are actually worth anything. With this you can make spreadsheets and powerpoint slides, those allow you have meetings and pretend to be important.

      This is the best and most accurately described to the point of every day reality I've read yet. +10000!

    23. Re:Just test! by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Life is full of stress, poor sleep and bad diet.
      Tests are better because of those things, not worse.

      I agree a teacher doing a one on one evaluation would be even better, but if we spent money on that schools could not have such elaborate sports programs.

      Oh n0s. What will we do without the sports to keep our inadequate Humans in a dominant position? ;)

    24. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never had a critical design review?
      How about a deadline? I hear stress, poor sleep, and too many frozen pizzas are pretty common.

    25. Re:Just test! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily, depending on the course, I might still talk to the student and ask why he didn't do the reading - if he already knows the required material, I might point him toward some readings that extend what we are doing in class that will challenge him more. There was a kid in my calculus class last spring that I gave an article on sociological bias in framing conditional probability problems. It gave him something new to think about when we were covering material he had seen before. I didn't require him to read it, but he found it interesting and fun to talk about.

  10. Very useful, obviously. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because every student has a similar style of learning.

  11. PageTurner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I am patenting Pageturner, proven to be the best way to spoof your e-book reading!

    This software package turns pages while you drink a beer.

    1. Re:PageTurner by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I am patenting Pageturner, proven to be the best way to spoof your e-book reading!

      Perfect! Between the Big Brother software and the anti-Big Brother software, at least it'll get the economy moving. Keynes (cue conservative and libertarian rants) once opined that in a recession you could help the economy by paying group A to dig holes and group B to fill them in. Certainly a good example of pointless for that era, but I doubt he realized how amazingly good computers would be at doing pointless things.

    2. Re:PageTurner by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      I am patenting Pageturner, proven to be the best way to spoof your e-book reading!

      Perfect! Between the Big Brother software and the anti-Big Brother software, at least it'll get the economy moving. Keynes (cue conservative and libertarian rants) once opined that in a recession you could help the economy by paying group A to dig holes and group B to fill them in. Certainly a good example of pointless for that era, but I doubt he realized how amazingly good computers would be at doing pointless things.

      Careful; he'll forget to pay his taxes when drunk!

    3. Re:PageTurner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AutoIt already exists. Not that it'll stop you.

  12. Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is .. by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

    I haven't taken a note in my entire life, and I consider highlighting books to be sacrilege.

    Taking notes is overrated. If your brain can't process the information, taking notes won't mean anything in the long run. It's just a exam-passing technique, but it won't help you understand better and certainly will not help you hold on to more knowledge beyond the date of the exam you are studying for.

    Read the damn book. Then read some more on the subject, and by all means skip pages and passages if you consider them non-important or redundant. In the real world you will not have time to read 1500 pages of product documentation to understand an API. Learning to skip the irrelevant content and find the relevant information quickly is a fundamental skill.

    --
    WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
  13. Start the countdown by BigSlowTarget · · Score: 2

    Next up: an app which automatically turns the pages and shares highlighting. (If this is used for grading or implicitly incorporated into paper/project grading).

    1. Re:Start the countdown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, there's a much simpler solution. When professors will quit assigning textbooks if nobody reads them. If forced to read them, students will start demanding something more concise and readable than your average textbook.

      Textbooks are thick and dry for two reasons. The first reason is because the author has devoted their life to the field, so they get long-winded and assume the material is intrinsically fascinating for everyone else. The second is intimidation. If students don't read the textbook then they never complain about how ineffective they are for actual learning. Publishers make plenty of money on the thousand page behemoths that never leave the bookshelf.

  14. No Educational Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The prof has no interest in whether or not you read the book. He simply does not care! Don't read it, fail the class, he still gets paid.

    This information is either completely pointless, or has some potential for increased profits form the publishers.

    It will not be used to improve your education, facilitate your learning or alter the class in any student favorable way.

    1. Re:No Educational Value by Reality+Man · · Score: 1

      University as a business above all? No way! It's all about learning to think!

    2. Re:No Educational Value by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The prof should not care, that is not his place. Either you will pass based on your efforts or fail.

    3. Re:No Educational Value by camperdave · · Score: 1

      The prof should not care, that is not his place. Either you will pass based on your efforts or fail.

      Two issues with your assertion... well, three.

      First, maybe the e-book may have been written by that very professor. The class may even be a test sample for how readable and engaging the ebook is. "Publish or perish"

      Second, If enough students consistently fail the classes, someone's going to wonder if the professor should be teaching it.

      Finally, although it is not their place to care, a professor that does care will be a better instructor.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:No Educational Value by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      First, Conflict of interest. No prof should be making money using his own books in his own class.

      Second, maybe the students are just idiots.

      Third, I disagree.

      My favorite and probably best prof, honestly did not care about students who did not care about his class. He failed 75% of the people who took one class with me. He put the goals on the board, handed out readings and answered questions. If you did not ask questions of him during class or office hours odds are you failed. If you showed up to the lab without your work completed and ready to be tested, odds are you failed. He openly mocked students who failed to live up to his expectations. This was a 500 level class, so there was no reason for anyone unprepared to be there.

    5. Re:No Educational Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, Conflict of interest. No prof should be making money using his own books in his own class.

      Maybe so, but the real world doesn't work that way.

      My favorite and probably best prof [...] openly mocked students who failed to live up to his expectations

      Your aspergers is just shining through...

    6. Re:No Educational Value by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      It did at my university. We had a professor cut each student a check when it happened. She should have provided the books for free if she wrote them. This rule was designed to stop that.

      I don't think social punishment is an Aspergers thing. Pretty much all societies have some form of it, from the stocks to making people carry placards announcing what they did wrong.

    7. Re:No Educational Value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Punishment is a sociopath thing.

      Asperger is most often found on the other end of the scale - blunt, larger than life and strange, but also naive, true intentioned and good hearted.
      Asperger's will most likely run out of things to say when put on the hot spot.
      They need a lifetime to learn all the ropes to becoming great leaders. Keeping staying in the shadows forever is more likely.
      No belittling of other people, as asperger people see no point to it - and besides have no talent for true egocentric rudeness.

      1-2% of the population have aspeger's. Not alot of us. Additionally, we live a life of recluse out of necessity. So whoever you take notice of, is likely not an asperger at all. Also, there is no good way to identify us other than "general social awkwardness". We're all unique and different, and we do not all lack empathy, we just process things differently.

    8. Re:No Educational Value by Cormacus · · Score: 1

      Some of my classes were like this, and it was astounding how many people at the '500' level (at my U they were 4000 or 5000-level classes, I think we both mean 'final year, pinnacle of your education' classes) were completely worthless at their chosen major. I couldn't believe some of those people had not been flunked out of the program before getting that far along.

      The other issue though is that when you hit those senior-level courses is that group projects start showing up, where each person really needs to pull their weight for it to work out. Or all of the work gets dumped on the one person who doesn't want to fail and the slackers still skate through...

      --
      Mon chien, il n'a pas du nez. Comment scent-il? TrÃs mauvais!
  15. god forbid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You use another medium, like taking notes on paper.

    1. Re:god forbid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At some time writing on paper will be outlawed. For good reason, of course, because after all, terrorists can use that method for secretly sharing information.

  16. good intent? by Pedestrianwolf · · Score: 1

    it's like the saying goes.. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

  17. stop using 3-4 books and only using parts of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    stop using 3-4 books and only using parts of them

  18. Not surprising by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

    If data can be collected someone will collected; once it is collected there is a strong "need" to use. This certainly can be used to help improve coursework; especially if aggregate data shows patterns where material can be improved. If there is correlation between scores and performance than it is worthwhile to see if their is causation as well and use that to help improve learning. OTOH, factoring that into grading would be problematic, since learning styles differ. I took an English Lit class in college and never opened the book and got an A. Why? I had read the book a few years ago and so was familiar enough with the text to discuss and analyze it. Of course, as one of my professors put it" I don't care if you come to class or do any work, we've already got your money. What you get from your investment is up to you."

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    1. Re:Not surprising by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      If data can be collected someone will collected; once it is collected there is a strong "need" to use. This certainly can be used to help improve coursework; especially if aggregate data shows patterns where material can be improved. If there is correlation between scores and performance than it is worthwhile to see if their is causation as well and use that to help improve learning. OTOH, factoring that into grading would be problematic, since learning styles differ. I took an English Lit class in college and never opened the book and got an A. Why? I had read the book a few years ago and so was familiar enough with the text to discuss and analyze it. Of course, as one of my professors put it" I don't care if you come to class or do any work, we've already got your money. What you get from your investment is up to you."

      All this is is a simple military initiative to find those who are most likely to follow rules without thinking. Guns don't kill people; the government does.

  19. Negative Incentives vs. Internal Motivation by Irate+Engineer · · Score: 1

    This strikes me as yet another place where today's students, many already low in internal motivation, have that motivation replaced with a Big-Brother-esque all-knowing eye that knows when they haven't conformed. All this does is train the low-motivation students to become mindless robots who just respond to the stick when prodded. We're training away motivated learning and replacing it with a closed loop stimulus-response system where no real learning occurs.

    --

    Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

    Vote for Bernie in 2016!

    1. Re:Negative Incentives vs. Internal Motivation by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      This strikes me as yet another place where today's students, many already low in internal motivation, have that motivation replaced with a Big-Brother-esque all-knowing eye that knows when they haven't conformed. All this does is train the low-motivation students to become mindless robots who just respond to the stick when prodded. We're training away motivated learning and replacing it with a closed loop stimulus-response system where no real learning occurs.

      Sadly, it will probably just give them more complaining to carry out in text messaging.

  20. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't be *too* concerned about professors knowing my reading habits. On the other hand, I would probably just deny the program internet access.

    1. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "According to our logs you've never looked into the required reading, so we have to give you an F."

  21. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree with you, but some people are very visual and cannot retain without seeing things. "Memorization by wrote" and all that...

    RE learning to get to the heart of the matter is a skill that is not taught in schools these days, nor is critical thinking. Kids are largely not even taught anymore; they are "taught" to pass the standardized tests the state dreams up. Real-world skills like shop, etc., have been replaced with junk like "foo-foo" electives that do nothing but give kids a chance to surf their mobiles whilst the teacher rambles on about this and that.

    Disclaimer: I work in education and I see the above firsthand on a daily basis. I'm also in Texas, which spends more money on sports than on actual education. Sadly, our kids leave school without knowing the proper use of a semicolon, how to critically think, and I daresay, most could likely not find Madagascar on a map despite the recent animated hit.

    Sadly, American schools eschew CS and science training and are being overtaken by what we deem "third-world" countries like Vietnam. This below article is both frightening for Americans and great for the Vietnamese.

    http://neil.fraser.name/news/2013/03/16/?ref=nf

  22. Re:Make it a criminal act to read someone else's b by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Obligatory link.

    It turns out this hypothetical scenario actually was too extreme, it was set much too far in the future...

    --
    2*3*3*3*3*11*251
  23. Re:stop using 3-4 books and only using parts of th by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are two types of learners: One type tries to read a given book from front to back, perhaps several times, trying to learn everything that can be learned from it. The other type tries to learn what he wants to know and uses whatever information is at his disposal. People who use the former method become experts. People who use the latter method become problem solvers. It is important to understand that you don't choose the method to get the kind of person you want. The person chooses the method because they are the kind of person they are.

  24. The dumbing down continues by concealment · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Education in 1900: you need to be able to do things.

    Education in 1980: you need to be able to know how to do things.

    Education in 2000: you need to memorize things.

    Education in 2013: you need to have done the reading, been present, breathing and perhaps even conscious.

    1. Re:The dumbing down continues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the education system has been awful and based around memorization for quite some time now. It's good at producing obedient factory-type workers, but very few people make it through with critical thinking skills, and it is rarely thanks to the education system when that does happen...

    2. Re:The dumbing down continues by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Education in 1900: you need to be able to do things.

      Those who do not know history are doomed to make shit up about it which is demonstrably false and look silly on the internet.

      Rote memorisation used to be HUGE.

      2x2=4 2x3=6 2x4=8 2x5=doodles on exercise book.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:The dumbing down continues by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      Education in 2030: Just pay up the college fee and move along.

      At least everyone will know by then that the degree is worthless and everybody will get judged on what they can do. Then, hopefully, the system will reboot.

    4. Re:The dumbing down continues by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      I was going to make a joke about class warfare, and how that could be used to inhibit class mobility. Then I realized it would probably be taken seriously and turn into a flame war. Probably will anyway.

    5. Re:The dumbing down continues by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Memorization is useful. The schools are not requiring enough of it. I was an adjunct for a few years and too many students didn't know the basics. Whether it's martial arts, basketball, dance, history, music, computer science you need to be able to memorize, to have things down by rote. Punches, free throws, plies, scales are done again, and again, and again 1000s of times until it becomes second nature.

      This is necessary and useful. For all the carping I hear about too much memorization - I see too little of it.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
  25. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    It's just a exam-passing technique, but it won't help you understand better and certainly will not help you hold on to more knowledge beyond the date of the exam you are studying for.

    Maybe for you, but it sounds like you havent taken many notes, and it certainly sounds like you can only speak for yourself.

    For me and many that I know, taking notes can be a way of summarizing and processing the information coming in. By restating what the teacher says in a different way, and by taking it down, one is re-committing it to memory in a more lasting way than passively sitting in the classroom.

    IIRC its not even up for debate that "active" learning styles are on the whole more effective than passively listening to a lecture.

  26. I'd like to know... by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    ...what "Big Brother" policies HAVEN'T been motivated by some superficial 'good intent'?

    Seriously?

    Last time I checked, the pavement on the road to Hell was still the same as it always was.

    --
    -Styopa
  27. Authors and publishers can use this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..to tell how much their material sucks. I remember spending over $200 for an accounting book @ 1990's only to find that several examples and the answers therein were WRONG. How can you learn the material from a book if you can't trust the book to have the right answers?

    Spend a hour or two working a problem just to go in to class the next day, "Oh yeah, the book is wrong!" ..not my most favorite class..

    1. Re: Authors and publishers can use this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You probably learned much more by recognizing your text was not and is not always correct!

  28. Oxymoronic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ['"It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent," said Tracy Hurley, the dean of the school of business" at Texas A&M.]

    One would think she would be aware that there can be no such thing as "Big Brother with a good intent."

    I'm glad I'm older now; once upon a time ('70s, '80s, even '90s), I wanted to live as long as possible. But with what we have wrought in the last 15 years, I'm glad to be going to the grave.

  29. Who owns the data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On one hand, I think technology like this could really help education, particularly online education. It'd be great to be able to pull out students who are struggling because they're not doing the reading.

    On the other hand, the article seems to imply that all of this data is being gathered and kept by the publishing companies and CourseSmart then does some simple processing and sells it back. That's not how it should be.

    Hey, Texas A&M, this is good, valuable data that you're just letting them have. The Texas A&M system is big enough that you should be developing this system in-house and rolling it out across the system internally. The publishers will want the data anyway because it'll let them improve their textbooks, right? Make them pay you for it.

  30. This is news by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    The Aggies can read!

  31. Use by School Admin by Mystakaphoros · · Score: 1
    The ideal: New learning strategies can be identified to aid struggling students.

    The real: Teachers are rated based on how much time their students spend reading at home.

  32. Metrics are usually used to push down and back by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 2
    Metrics are usually used to push down and back, not usually to lift people up. Regardless of the nice and helpful intent asserted by one professor in the article who said "Are you really learning if you only open the book the night before the test? I knew I had to reach out to him to discuss his studying habits." I have a feeling these "metrics" such as "engagement" which somehow tracks "how engaged" you are with a class can be misused to help justify giving a student a lower score or flunking them.
    .
    Students in that article complained that the CourseSmart assessment software unfairly judged their "engagement level" as low if they took class notes on a different software package/editor or even if they took handwritten class notes which were not even considered by the software: At a recent session here of a management training class, Mr. Guardia addressed how to intervene efficiently with underperformers. The students watched a video of a print shop manager chewing out an employee without knowing the circumstances. The moral: The manager needed better data.
    . . Then Mr. Guardia discussed with his students the analytics of their own reading, which he had e-mailed to them. The students suggested that once again better information was needed. Several said their score was being minimized because they took notes on paper.
    . . Others complained there were software bug

    And as to the question of whether these analytics mean anything, the software developer had this to say:

    CourseSmart says the data it collects now is a beginning. "We'll ultimately show how the student traverses the book," Mr. Devine said. "There's a correlation and causality between engagement and success."

    Note the phrase "ultimately show", which means that this is still an experiment. And note the jumping to a conclusion about correlation and causation between engagement and success. While that conclusion may be warranted by other studies, and depending upon the definitions used for "engagement" and for "success" (you can always game the definitions too), the problem is that the monitoring systems way of numerically evaluating "engagement" may be all fucked up if you use handwritten notes or read auxillary works (other textbooks, older classes' texts, or even "outlines" of texts).
    .
    The worst uses of these metrification analytics was highlighted in a Los Angeles Times article yesterday called "Monitoring upends balance of power at workplace, some say". That article had some examples of over-monitoring and over-detailed "supervising" with bad or partial numbers:

    She recently was reprimanded for taking 29 minutes to move a load of boxes; the boxes were much heavier than usual, but the numbers didn't show that, she said.

    Or the example of how to read in what you want:

    One major retailer, for instance, started measuring its employees, only to discover its most productive workers were part-timers who had been there less than a year. It then began to focus on hiring short-term part-timers, said Ed Frauenheim, a senior editor at Workforce Magazine.

    Shouldn't it have focussed on finding out the things that made those workers more productive, and wouldn't it have made more sense to have turned those very productive part-time employees into full time employees with better compensation? Having analytics just gives you/the teacher/the supervisor one extra checkbox to check-off as the supposedly valid reason for giving someone a bad evaluation / a bad or failing grade / a demotion or firing. It creates fake evidence or fake justification which can be fallen upon as a crutch or "just cause" for the action which the person in power may have already wanted to take.

    1. Re:Metrics are usually used to push down and back by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      That's a nice theory, but you ignore the fact that the incentives are reversed. Employers are incentivized to lower evaluation scores so that they can justify lowered wages or not raising wages. Educators are incentivized to pass students and raise grades. Faculty retention, raises, and promotion are all tied to this, and so is funding for the whole school and/or school-district. That's why you're seeing scandals like the one in Atlanta, where public school administration and faculty are being busted for cheat-changing grades UPWARD in order to keep the funds to keep their schools open.

    2. Re:Metrics are usually used to push down and back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And note the jumping to a conclusion about correlation and causation between engagement and success.

      It's not jumping to conclusions, it's well established in research literature that "high engagement" with the material to be learned yields "success" in learning the material.

      You can certainly dispute whether or not these numbers are an accurate measure of engagement, but the simple statement that 'engagement yields success' is absolutely supported by plenty of research findings.

    3. Re:Metrics are usually used to push down and back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After I saw the formatting of your post, I expected to learn how host files help with this problem.

    4. Re:Metrics are usually used to push down and back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having used the CourseSmart software for a few courses, I can tell you that it is a horrible piece of software. The *very* first thing I do if the textbook is only available via CourseSmart is to circumvent their DRM and generate a PDF which I can read on my phone, tablet, or *any* device that can read a PDF.

      They're trying to pull an Apple and make textbook sales and use a walled garden, and to that I say "Fuck no."

    5. Re:Metrics are usually used to push down and back by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      A very good point. Keep in mind, however, that stunting the growth of minds via metrics leads to other minds learning how to screw with metrics to provide the best self-serving data possible.

  33. Rarely is the question asked: by JeanCroix · · Score: 0

    Is our children learning?

  34. Re:But who wants teachers/bosses/whoever prying? by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    This was the entire point of Freshman year - in return for your tuition (!!) among other things you got to get away from a daily "papers please" mentality of the lower grades, and then you were graded on the fewer metrics for that class, "however you (presumed honestly) got there". Cue the brilliant slackers types having to face their latent tendencies.

    This just another sad factor showing that data leads to people getting a carnal lust to control people with.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  35. complicated by Faisal+Rehman · · Score: 0

    just take a quiz and know how much student understand.

  36. Obvious loophole, obvious issue by captainpanic · · Score: 1

    Do you really think students will struggle to get used to touching the 'next page' button about every 1-5 minutes, while playing their computer games?
    Teachers will only catch the odd unprepared student who honestly did not have time to study. The professional slackers however will walk free.

    We should give students the responsibility. It is their life, their responsibility. Takes about 18-25 years on average to grow up. And this kind of thing just is not helping to achieve becoming an adult.

    Cramming some stupid facts into their heads is only one of the task of schools. Making adults out of them is another. Sometimes those conflict. Deal with it.

  37. So... by olip85 · · Score: 1

    Some aspects of education are more important than privacy?

  38. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

    And you can speak only for yourself. Each person's brain works differently.

    In my case, I'm not strong on "I/O", so if I'm taking notes, I'm clogging up channels that would be better used to absorb the lecture in the first place.

    I figured this out gradually during college. The first year, I took copious notes and filled thick notebooks. After realizing that the note taking was counterproductive for me, the last couple of years, I took essentially no notes. My GPA remained the same, but my stress level dropped.

    For people like myself, "active" learning is best kept to lab experiments and writing papers.

  39. Sounds like my high school experience... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the 90's.. The teachers did not give a damn if you actually knew the material or not. They just want to make sure you do all the busywork assigned to you. Why check up on whether or not I did the homework when the class is so painfully slow paced that i ace every test without even opening the book. Then take off a zillion points because I did not do any homework (whats the point when I already know the material?). "It isn't fair that the jocks have to do all the homework to learn it."

    Maybe I cheated, you say? Maybe I actually listened during the lectures. If you were capable of doing anything other than reading your pre-planned lectures, you would be able to tell when people are cheating.

    1. Re:Sounds like my high school experience... by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      I never did homework until I got to college. Especially Math homework. I had D overall averages in most of my Math courses, I never did the homework, never showed my work on the tests, never picked up a calculator, had an A test average. My stepmother was a Math teacher and assumed I was cheating, especially after talking to my teachers. So she sat me down one night and forced me to do my homework, and I was going to do it right there at the table in front of her. She was shocked when 15 minutes later I was done and had a page full of "Question number: Answer". Fuck, high school Math was easy.

      It was until I started taking college level Math that I learned the value of homework and showing your work step by step. Sure I still come across a few problems in the homework that I can look at and solve without picking up a pencil, but those are usually only a handful of the problems in the section (the ones that are intentionally simple).

  40. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once I truly come to understand something, it has already been memorized. If your goal is to memorize something, then I think you've got your priorities wrong.

  41. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

    For me and many that I know, taking notes can be a way of summarizing and processing the information coming in.

    In other words, everybody learns in a different way. All the more reason this Big Brother software is a bad idea. The worst possible thing would be to try to force everyone into a standard way of studying.

  42. I dont see why this is necessasary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Teachers already have a good lead on who the slackers and achievers are in the lessons. I dont see why this is necessasary.

    Its like the captain obvious of technology

  43. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by supercrisp · · Score: 1

    Ah. Your anecdote contradicts all the research. I hasten to adjust my pedagogy!

  44. The beauty is in the detail... So read the text! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was always surprised at my classmates who never thought to actually read the texts with their coursework. The beauty is in the details, as they say. The details are often only found in the text. I firmly believe one needs to 1) go to class 2) pay attention 3) read the text 4) most importantly, bathe before step 1.

  45. Academic Freedom by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    Students deserve academic freedom too. Maybe they're learning the subject via library books on their own time, and have no use for ebooks. The goal of the professor (at the end if the course) is to determine how much a student knows, not to enforce that the professor's method of learning was used.

    1. Re:Academic Freedom by PRMan · · Score: 1

      You wish. 25 years ago when I was in college, I wrote a program that was faster, shorter and worked better than the example the ditzy blonde teacher gave in class. She gave me an F on it because I didn't follow her lame program exactly.

      I went to her and complained. How could she give me an F when the program worked? If it failed to give the correct result, that would be different, but it didn't. She changed my grade to a C-. I ended up with a D in her class, even though I am a 10x better programmer than her.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    2. Re:Academic Freedom by bussdriver · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. College is extremely open ended to the professors and has been historically. It should continue in the way it was in the past which is what made it so desirable in the 1st place.

      There is no proof modern technology of any kind has benefited college; in fact, nearly everybody says college students are worse today than in the past and as far as the colleges themselves, the only changes have been more diversity and more technology. As far as the students... the society has changed, culture, diet, norms, mores... there is a huge list to choose from from the student side.

      I found that some masters courses were more about making you think a certain way and go about learning things a certain way than it was about the topic itself. Evaluation was weak but mostly based upon you just making thru the exercise. Some experiences are just that-- exercises/experiences. Don't limit the learning into the typical classroom situation. Physical education is just this kind of thing; I'm completely opposed to it being in college and I find the attempts to normalize it (with exams etc.) completely ridiculous.

  46. High School vs. Junior/Community college vs. Uni. by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    I think this is more of a matter of the education level at which this is implemented: High School vs. Junior/Community college vs. University undergraduate. Except at the college level, where you need to be able to "push back" at administration to say why you gave a student a poor grade. If a student fails, they might have to take the class again. At a community college, this means more income for the college. Your comments about cheating upward is true for high-school, junior high-school, and middle school. (My god, are they going to do metrics and standardized tests for elementary school students next?)
    .
    I thought that this /. article was going to be about software used to assess high-school students, where sometimes teachers do need to babysit and handhold and push them to do the reading and assignments. I thought that in college, it was accepted that you "have to be a big boy / big girl now" and become responsible for your reading habits and study habits. If you don't get around to your homework in high-school, your teacher gets in your face. The college level experience is supposed to be different. Perhaps community college requires professors to be in the students' faces. I thought that research-level university professors were too busy with research to deign interacting with students at this level of detail. Maybe the grad students or TAs would have to deal with undergrad students this way.
    .
    Are students getting stupider? Are grad students being treated the way undergrads used to be? And are undergrads being treated and micromanaged the way way high-school students used to be? And does this mean that high-schoolers like me are being treated like Jr high or middle school kids of the past?

  47. it's well established in research literature that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bow to your anonymity, your cowardice, and the wisdom of your assertion unsupported by any references or citations. I believe the point of the GP poster was that the software's purported claim to measurement of engagement is inaccurate and unsupported.

  48. The road to hell is paved with good intentions... by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 1

    To this bad idea, I say no thank you. Why don't we actually treat college students like adults.

    Fast forward 25 years...

    "Mr. President, we have here a log of your reading of your 'systems of government' textbook and you underlined all these passages about communism, would care to respond to the claim that your actually a communist?!?"

    Nothing about this idea is evenly remotely good. It's so bad that who ever thought it up should be fired along with the manager who approved it.

    --
    Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
  49. Counter software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will open the book for me, browse through all pages at random intervals, and highlight all sorts of words. That'll show 'em, you can't make me pass this class!

  50. fuck it all by AndyKron · · Score: 2

    This is fucking bullshit, and why I don't e-read to begin with FUCK IT ALL!

  51. Kept in check for years by concealment · · Score: 1

    I think that's all true, but originally in 1900 or so, students were expected to know how to do things: they had to have abilities, outside of special disciplines. Since that time, education has been moving more toward having them memorize steps through specific tasks, which makes them good cogs (true, true) but unable to act outside of that narrow framework. Students today lack the ability to go into an unknown situation and reason it out; what they have is the ability to, given a known situation, repeat a series of steps, with no real connection to the desired consequences of those steps.

  52. Different Learning Styles by noldrin · · Score: 2

    The problem is Professors want you to read the book as enrichment, but don't actually teach from the book, or test from the book. My last few years of college I stopped buying the textbooks (as the professor would put one on hold at the Library) and found that not opening the book didn't reduce my grades. Now they can reduce your grade for not reading. This is similar to homework, which I found no link between that and understanding homework. I had classes where I performance with excellence on the testing, but the lack of my homework reduce my grade to unsatisfactory.

    Most Colleges subscribe to the theory there is one way to learn, which is not true. I've been in classes where they berate the class for not taking notes. I've never take notes as I found they actually reduce learning for me. They way I learn is listening to lecture, walking around and thinking about them, and then a good night sleep. Most of the other methods of study lead me to temporary remembrance of the subject matter. I stand by my methods of learning as I find that I'm able to recall facts and apply them to subject matter I learned in High School and my peers who sometimes performed better than me on tests appear to have no memory of ever learning the topics.

    1. Re:Different Learning Styles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had classes where I performance with excellence on the testing

      Did you now? ;)

    2. Re:Different Learning Styles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your fault lies in actually learning something. School doesn't need you to learn something. Just pass the grades and move on. Get a job. Make more holes in the ground. Fill them up with toxins. That's what society requires of you.

      Now, dig slave!

    3. Re:Different Learning Styles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes the homework covers harder/deeper material than the tests, so they're actually interested in you being able to complete it as well as the (Mechanically easier) tests.

      Reading a book shouldn't be required for most courses, but homework can be just another form of testing.

  53. It takes about 5 minutes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...for an average CS student to write a script that opens every page of the ebook. Maybe 6, if he wants it to skip every page without pictures.

  54. If only... by Frontier+Owner · · Score: 1
    if teachers knew the subject they were teaching and wrote tests based on what they taught, then they could tell if a student knew the material or not. Let the grades reflect the level of effort put into the subject. Instead, we have standardized/normalized/lowered to the LCD test that will allow a brain damaged spider monkey to pass the course.

    Some classes just have dry reading material. Some classes, you're required to take and have no interest in the subject. Having big brother watch you to make sure you do the required reading isn't the answer. The student can blankly stare at the pages long enough to "read" the words to promptly forget them. With a little effort from the teacher, a bit of interest can be developed and more will be learned and retained past the end of the page.

  55. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by Hatta · · Score: 1

    IIRC its not even up for debate that "active" learning styles are on the whole more effective than passively listening to a lecture.

    Simply writing something down is not "active". Thinking about it is active. Writing notes takes time away from thinking.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  56. While you were drinking by Frankie70 · · Score: 1

    I already patented it while you were drinking your beer.

    1. Re:While you were drinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First to file!

  57. Good intent? by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 2

    '"It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent,"

    Said every dictator, thug, and authoritarian ever...

    Seriously, how can someone say this with a straight face? Oh, wait, I forget...this is a college campus.

    --
    In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
  58. Term-papers made me think coherently! make it stop by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    I just had to write a fifteen page essay with well-research references (not wikipedia or purely internet based sources), so I'm still stuck in my weekend writing habit of including the citation (url link to L.A. Times) and short snippet in-line quotes from the source material ! Term-paper writing habits seem to carry over into every day activities and writing projects, even /. comments. I do notice that I've written "essay length" posts a bit in the last two days. That's probably also from the paper writing habit of putting my thoughts into a coherent and structured format. How very un-slash-dot-like, eh? :>)

  59. Cisco Netacad.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All Cisco Academy instructors are already able to do this through netacad.com. Student logs reveal the amount of time that they spend on each page, including full time stamps. When a student chooses not to engage the curriculum, it is reflected in the log as well as in their test grades.

    Also, Google Drive provides the same granularity for assignments that the students turn in. So if a student decides to play video games all day, who is ultimately responsible for their lack of progress?

    For secondary instructors, it gives us something concrete to discuss with parents. For education to work, students, teachers, and administrators must be held accountable. This data addresses one of the shortcomings in NCLB.

    1. Re:Cisco Netacad.com by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      What if the student does not engage at all, but aces the tests? Or what if he spends the most time reading it but fails all the tests?
      In neither of those cases does this metric offer any insight.

      The biggest failing in secondary education is the lack of failing. This does not address that. The second is the replacement of actual teachers knowing and analyzing their students with pointless metrics, like this one.

  60. What will this really show? by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Simply reading the text doesn't mean you understand it or can apply what you've learned. And what if it the teacher discovers that most of the class skipped a few pages? Will he put a question on the test that can only be answered if you've read that page? How will that help? And what if you're not a fast reader and simply can't get through dull-as-dishwater prose by some undeservedly famous author? Or what if you're a wicked fast reader but the teacher doesn't believe you and downgrades you because you didn't spend as much time reading as he thinks you should? And what if you read the book before? Do you get downgraded because you didn't read it again?

  61. Because teachers will really do the extra work by chemosh6969 · · Score: 1

    I'm sure they're all just sitting around saying they want more work to do, like seeing if students open their books or not. If a student doesn't want to follow along in class, the teacher isn't going to turn into a nanny and start investigating them.

  62. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    I wasnt saying that "all note taking is active", i was saying that active styles are more effective and that for many (such as myself) the note-taking is a way of thinking about and engaging with the lecture.

    Yes, it is possible to passively take notes, and for me it is not very helpful to do so. But (for me and for many I've talked to) taking notes while thinking on what the professor / speaker / preacher is saying is a strong way of thinking about, reflecting on, and committing to memory what is being said.

  63. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

    I had a professor that allowed cheat sheets on exams. The requirements were that it was a letter sized sheet maximum and hand written. Turns out it was an indirect way to force everyone to read the materials (books and provided lecture outlines), filter out the cruft, and write down the important bits. Students in his class learned and retained more material making cheat sheets then by taking traditional notes. If you give something that appears to be a reward or bonus (a cheat sheet), people tend to put more incentive into doing the work.

  64. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

    I wasn't particularly a fan of teachers that refused to give class notes/outlines to students, Many times it was the ONLY material that would be on the tests and copying stuff off those scribbles they drew on an overhead projector or chalk/dry erase board was painful. When it came time to study, those who didn't have the notes perfectly written down were in a bit of a bind.

  65. Doing it for the children by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    '"It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent," Bahahahahaahaa......

  66. Lock-In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone is missing the real disadvantage of this technology. If your grades (indirectly or directly) become partially based off of doing the readings, then you have to subscribe to their system. You can't get your textbook from a friend, or second hand, or from another country. They can force you into whatever restrictive license they want, and they get to dictate the price.

    Which become even worse when the book is some piece of crap thrown together by the professor teaching the course for a quick dime. Now you need to line their pockets in order to pass.

    Textbooks are already priced ridiculously. This will not make it better.

  67. What the fuck? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

    So those college students that have read loads of other material on a particular subject get viewed as cheaters because they didn't read enough pages of the college's e-book yet still got an A?

    You have to read ONLY what the college says you need to read, and read all of it or you're an oddball? WTF? The education system gets more and more lost as time goes on.

  68. CourseSmart == DRM'ed PDF access by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    They're trying to pull an Apple and make textbook sales and use a walled garden, and to that I say "Fuck no." ...
    .
    Ahhh, now I understand their true motivation. Good point. I emphatically agree with what you say.

  69. It is not about the teachers by Catbeller · · Score: 1

    The issue isn't what the teachers are doing with the data. That's a grease stain from the real horror here.

    The issue is, as we go forward, ebook readers will be pretty much the only way kids read library books and any other words, for that matter. When the libraries slowly shut down the paper stacks, we will be looking at a system that as a matter of course tracks every word that a human child, or adult, later, will input into their skulls.

    This means: tracking for seditious or suspicious writings. Personality analysis, broken down by year, type, and growth of particular concentration of interest. I'm not saying they will be correct analyses - but they don't have to be, as credit scores and polygraph use attests.

    Our society shows, doubtlessly, that such metrics will be undertaken for "security" reasons. Mostly, really, it will be done "because power". Power is all the reason they will ever need. The ability to track not only location, associations, but the very thoughts you, as a kid and beyond, are reading and processing to make you, you.

    Billions of paper books will still exist, of course, and smart people will read those to keep their reading habits off the radar, but for the most part, people will accept the monitoring. Watch what you say, watch what you do, and of course watch what you read. And you have nothing to worry about, naturally, if you don't read the wrong things, we will say.

    This is hell.

    1. Re:It is not about the teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ebook readers will be pretty much the only way kids read library books and any other words, for that matter. When the libraries slowly shut down the paper stacks, we will be looking at a system that as a matter of course tracks every word that a human child, or adult, later, will input into their skulls.

      I don't think that's etched in stone anywhere. The physical medium of ink on paper, libraries, book stores, and reading nooks is old-time religion and not easily triffled with. I say this as a firm believer in Wikipedia and a geek on Slashdot. It would take a serious global schism before we lost that army of book lovers that will do everything in their power to fight a future such as you laid out. I think this is partly in thanks to works like 1984 and all those dystopian novels. Also too, to the history books and wiki pages that document the anti-intellectualism that brought about biblioclasms.

      If it's worth reading, it should be on the Internet. If it's worth reading later, it should be in a book.

      The library is our church. The silence is sacred. And our most holy of holy book is all of them. The book will not disappear in my lifetime nor my son's. On this you have word. Past that I can't guarantee, but for all the gnashing monsters at the roots of the world, this is not a fear I have.

      Billions of paper books will still exist, of course, and smart people will read those to keep their reading habits off the radar, but for the most part, people will accept the monitoring.

      The marginalization of books on the other-hand is possible. But books have always been a haven for the smart little cookies. Sadly, for the most part, books are already ignored.

  70. Hoo-boy by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    I teach in college... ...and by there ignorant ass friends.

    C- See me after class.

    1. Re:Hoo-boy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I figured that had to be grammar Nazi bait, so I gave it a pass. What I'm more concerned with is the missing hyphen on 'ignorant ass friends'. Is it 'ignorant-ass friends' or 'ignorant ass-friends'? The distinction is important.

    2. Re:Hoo-boy by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 1

      That is called bait. . . . But the missing hyphen isn't - see the AC response to your post - it does make me laugh, though.

  71. Is this another April 1st joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot seems to be mistaking April First stories for real content simply because the story stays online, and may only be noticed days later.

    A few days ago, Slashdot dribbled the nonsense about American universities using software to automatically grade essay papers. Now we have the same thing in a different form. Let me help to explain the issue here...

    Crooks peddle snakeoil to anyone they can, including blue-chip companies and universities. Many times in the past, crooked time-and-motion companies have sold 'solutions; like this to naive managers. One example was the fabled 'computer keyboard' monitor. The idea was that your boss could use software to monitor your keyboard 'usage' - forgetting the fact that it was child's play to install counter software that automatically appeared to be striking keys in an acceptable pattern use.

    Here we have the same old con resurrected this time to 'measure' the use of an electronic document (ebook). Consider the same thing in the old 'analogue' classroom setting. Every pupil holding up their 'reading book'. Every pupil ensuring they turned the page at what seemed to be a plausible rate to the possible observing eyes of the teacher. Most of them, of course, are not reading a damned thing.

    YOU CANNOT MEASURE SEMANTICS BY MEASURING SYNTAX. The act of page turning (or the electronic equivalent) is 'syntax'. The 'learning' from the words read is 'semantics'. No amount of syntactical analysis can tell you anything about the semantic information gained by the learner (even a failure to open the book tells you nothing for certain, since the learner nay have already gained its information elsewhere).

    The fallacy of the usefulness of syntactical measures of an individuals semantic achievements lies in a profound misunderstanding of statistics. Individuals may teach about the group. The group never teaches about properties of the individual.

       

    1. Re:Is this another April 1st joke? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      FTFA: "Published: April 8, 2013"

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  72. Re:Make it a criminal act to read someone else's b by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

    Thereby forcing everyone to buy an ebook. All Hail

    ...a more expensive eBook with monitoring attributes attached. Oh, and ya gotta pay (think of it as a tax) for instructor monitoring. It's to Keep America Safe.

  73. Except that is not true. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Except that is not true if the adult child (yes, it is possible to be both, the definition of child is different from minor, dependent, etc.) gives permission.

    If permission is given you are not only allowed, but usually required (by college/state policy) to discuss matters with the parents. In some cases there is good reason for this. For example, note that the latest research shows that the brain continues to show significant development and maturation into the mid or late twenties.

    As a professor you do not know enough about the personal circumstances of the student (nor should you) to make the determination if involving parents. guardians, etc. is appropriate or not. And you do not have the right to determine this, the student and their family have that right and responsibility.

    Note that discussions with parents should be handled carefully, in most cases you will want to consult with Department Chairs or Deans, Perhaps office of Student Services, and perhaps have a meeting in conjunction with those and other administrative officials.

    You state a lot of things in a hostile and inappropriately condescending manner considering your lack of basic knowledge of the circumstances, requirements, and applicable policies and laws.

  74. Real world trials... by metrometro · · Score: 1

    How it should be used: "This section here doesn't seem to provide value to our students"

    How it will be used: "You read the book, but your page rate was excessive in parts, so the computer gave you a reading score of 87%."

  75. You are clearly an entitled asshole. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are clearly an entitled asshole. Obvious from your other posts where you claim to be upset you coudn't test out, then whine that you didn't want to take the harder class because it might hurt your precious GPA. Whaaa! Whaaa! Whaaa! all the way home.

    I would have failed you, and would have had the right since attendance is mandatory. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. Note that in the real word "acing the work" without showing up to the workplace would usually get you fired, especially because it is impossible since interacting with other workers is in fact part of the job, for both tangible and intangible reasons. Same in the classroom, where discussion and interaction and questions benefit you and the other students, even if you are too self-absorbed to even imagine how this is possible.

  76. I like your positive spin on this issue. by concealment · · Score: 1

    I like the positive way of looking at this that you've chosen. However, I also mourn the loss of what college should have been, could have been, etc.

  77. Re:Term-papers made me think coherently! make it s by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    Do you also use lots of bold in your essays? Because that's a big part of what makes your post look "apk-ish".

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  78. Learning styles? by h8sg8s · · Score: 1

    So, how does the person(s) monitoring this know how *I* learn? Lots of learning and reading styles out there, this is just an effort to give them another meaningless metric to rate students on. Bah.

    --
    Organization? You must be joking..
  79. There's a better way... by Randym · · Score: 1

    '"It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent,"

    ...it's called grading the students on what they have learned. And I can't believe such an inane comment came from a dean. Of course, it is Texas, land of the dumbed-down and incorrect textbooks, so maybe we shouldn't be that surprised....

    --
    DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
  80. Good Intent? by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

    "It's Big Brother, sort of, but with a good intent"

    Isn't it always? Who or what defines "good"?

    --
    It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
  81. Re:Term-papers made me think coherently! make it s by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    No, I copied that style from the A.P. news or the editorial commentary writer's techniques of quoting other documents or statements and bold-face highlighting a portion of it with the statement "[emphasis mine]" to point out that the bold-face was not in the original. It sort of matches my best-friend's speaking style, which I copy from time to time. It helps to show cadences in poetry or indicates deliberate mispronunciations like "putting the em-phaa-sis on the wrong syl-lahb-ull" on purpose. (when they really are correctly pronounced em-phu-sis and syll-a-bul (and correctly spelled "emphasis" and "syllable", just in case you thought I didna know that right spellin' thar, laddie)
    .
    The bold highlights what I really want to quote and reply to; the rest of the un-bolded text maintains the context of the snippet I quoted. The snippet by itself without its surrounding context often does not carry the same connotation that the context helps to provide. I keep the bold out of my essay except as needed in the reference citations. I don't want to lose any "form" points (or any "content" points, either!) on my essay grades.

  82. This is fantastic! by brisk0 · · Score: 1

    Education researchers will be able to gather huge amounts of data and we will be able to find optimal teaching and study methods much more easily. Wait, teachers are using this? Oh crap, here comes more heading unrelated to understanding.

  83. But, I could get a B in most classes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I could get a B in most classes I took and barely open the textbook. But A lot of classes I took because they were required, but I had already learned a lot about the subject before. I bet /. is full of geeks who took a lot of classes, and discovered the textbook was an unnecessary joke. One of my friends with a PhD in Physics told me that he learned calculus by going back and reading books that were 50 or more years old; they were better than the textbooks in the 1970's he had.

    There is an issue: does the student learn the subject , or learn the curricula. They aren't the same.

    I taught for a few terms post grad level. A few students already knew the material inside in some of the classes. My quandry was the ones that didn't show up enough to pass the class.

    end of rant

  84. Re:Shows how obsolete the mind of most teachers is by chrismcb · · Score: 1

    Taking notes is overrated. If your brain can't process the information, taking notes won't mean anything in the long run.

    I'm not a big note taker, but taking notes isn't overrated. First of all it can help you process the information. JUST that alone is probably worth taking notes. But it also can help you review the material later. You are given a LOT of material in a short amount of time. Rereading the notes helps you remember the big points. And they are big points that you came up with, not someone else.

  85. Nothing New Here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Back around 1970 [when electronics meant a transistor radio] I took a course from a professor who put supplemental reading on reserve in the library. On the day of the first hourly exam, he announced that he had been to the library and looked on the check-out cards to see who had done the reading, and that those who did not had forfeited any right to complain about or question their grades in his course.

  86. I wonder about "speed reading" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder about "speed reading" (without a computer). Does this "run afoul" too? I got the training in high school as part of "how you should read to be effective/efficient" with your studies. It would be a shame to penalize folks for that.

  87. Man I'd be busted! by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    Most of my college books were never even opened. Sucked it all in from the classes. Then when I really had to study I was screwed. Toughest course I ever took.