Google Formally Puts Palestine On Virtual Map

hypnosec writes "Google has indirectly walked right into one of the Middle East's most obstinate conflicts by labeling Palestine as an independent nation — wiping off the term 'Palestinian Territories' and replacing it with 'Palestine' in its localized search page. Google's move is more or less in line with the UN's October decision to name Palestine as a non-member observer state. The status given to Palestine will allow the state to join UN debates as well as global bodies such as the International Criminal Court, in theory at least. Up until May 1, anyone visiting http://www.google.ps were shown the phrase Palestinian Territories. This change is definitely not a huge one but, it has attracted criticism from politicians in Israel."

Comments

USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Gothmolly]

We all have our roles to play I suppose.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[femtobyte]

No, the US funnels far more overt support and resources to its bellicose little buddies. I don't see North Korea shifting the DMZ southward every year, leveling South Korean cities so North Korean settlers can move onto the land. China doesn't throw an international diplomatic hissy-fit at the mere suggestion that South Korea should be allowed to have its own autonomous government, much less one armed and hostile to the expansion of North Korean power.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Yakasha]

No, the US funnels far more overt support and resources to its bellicose little buddies. I don't see North Korea shifting the DMZ southward every year, leveling South Korean cities so North Korean settlers can move onto the land. China doesn't throw an international diplomatic hissy-fit at the mere suggestion that South Korea should be allowed to have its own autonomous government, much less one armed and hostile to the expansion of North Korean power.

I don't see the South electing a government with the stated goal of expelling or murdering every resident of the North, flatly stating that any and all negotiations are purely strategic moves to delay fighting when deemed necessary, that the commonly accepted "two state solution" will never be allowed to happen, or refusing to acknowledge the historical incidents predating the formation of their Northern neighbor and otherwise implicitly believing that no Northern citizen has a right to live.

So I guess neither of us like the analogy.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

Ah, I see you are repeating the propaganda approach without actually understanding the history of the region with regard to International Law. Perhaps these may enlighten you (and other Slashdotters) somewhat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub2x5UvjUs4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U

Where you have the situation wrong is that you assume that Israel objects to a Palestinian State merely on the basis of a Palestinian State existing. This is completely false, and misrepresents the position of the Israeli Government - and leads normal, moral people to draw incorrect conclusions. Please allow me to correct your understanding. The Israelis have always offered an Arab Palestinian State (and in fact, the Arabs were offered international recognition of one in 1948 by the United Nations but they refused, and continued to refuse as long as Israel exists).

The Israelis will fully endorse an Arab Palestinian State (in addition to the secular/Jewish Palestinian State called 'Israel') upon the following conditions:

• 1) Mutual recognition of Israel by the Arab Palestinians (in Arabic; they practice 'taqiyya' by saying one thing in English for suckers to believe while saying something completely different in Arabic)
• 2) The security needs of Israel to be met - no more Palestinian-Authority sanctioned jihadis to be sent to Israel
• 3) Everything else to be settled by *negotiation*.

The problem the Israelis have with the moves for Palestinian Statehood through the United Nations is *not* the creation of a Palestinian State. It is bypassing negotiations with the Israelis and bypassing mutual agreement and a *permanent* peace treaty (instead of the temporary 'hudna' that exists now while jihadis regather strength). The Palestinian move in the United Nations (now dominated by the Organization of Islamic Cooperation voting bloc) was a *very* sly move to bypass negotiations with the Israelis (unfortunately most people aren't aware of this aspect). So you see, the problem is that much of the left-leaning media (Associated Press, BBC, MSNBC etc) omit the reason for the Israeli protests. The Israelis have always offered to recognize an Arab Palestinian State, provided the Palestinian State recognize Israel *in Arabic*. Once you know this, you see the Israeli position as being entirely reasonable - they want to *negotiate* for permanent peace. I think most reasonable people would agree with the Israelis on this, and agree that the Palestinians sneaking through the UN to avoid recognizing Israel with a permanent peace treaty is not very good.

Here's some evidence of the real Palestinian position (which the media is not telling you about, it is feeding you propaganda instead without ever checking the real facts): http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?doc_id=8704&fi=157

ps. for those of you who are also fooled by the falsehood that Israel is 'the last European colonial state' you may want to ponder the fact that Jews have been living continuously in the region of Palestine for over 3000 years (the Arabs came later, and invaded around 1400 years ago). While no-one holds a unique claim to the land, it is a falsehood to say that Israel was only formed by European Jewish refugees after World War II. The Jews have been there a lot longer than that (even if they had been ethnically cleansed and were in small numbers until the end of the 19th Century).

Please also note that the Arabs and Muslims already have 56 large and mostly uncrowded countries. They don't want to destroy Israel because of the *land*, they want to do it because the Qur'an and hadiths tell them to. The fiction of being 'Palestinian' rather than 'Arab' or 'Jordanian' was only invented after the 1967 Israeli vi

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

The hasbara trumpet bloweth, I see.

Your propaganda would be amusing if people weren't fucking dying thanks to you and your ilk. Murdering scumbag. Coward.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try, but unconvincing. Israel is just as complicit in the situation as Palestine is.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

And why would the Palestinians need Israel approval when Israel didn't need to ask permission to the Palestinians to exist?
The whole "negotiated solution" is propaganda for Israel to keep the Palestinians stateless forever, and continue the colonization. The longer they wait, the larger their state will be.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[interval1066]

much less one armed and hostile to the expansion of North Korean power.

So the proper attitude in your opinion is to welcome the DPRK's prison camps?

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[femtobyte]

Huh? Where'd that come from? I'm perfectly fine with China not trampling in to directly help North Korea wage hostilities against the South; I'm happy with South Korea being able to defend its border against aggression. Likewise, I'd be fine with Israel not receiving massive support from its sugar daddy to unilaterally steamroll over Palestine; I'd be fine with Palestine having a bit more firepower to fight back wherever Israel pushes its borders to steal more land/resources.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[TapeCutter]

Yes, both sides want to kill each other, that's the problem in a nutshell.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that's because the us gives the money. My guess, if we didn't support South Korea we would be talking about the unified communist state of Korea. We did give the money out without purpose or without getting something back for it.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[WGFCrafty]

And why would the Palestinians need Israel approval when Israel didn't need to ask permission to the Palestinians to exist?
The whole "negotiated solution" is propaganda for Israel to keep the Palestinians stateless forever, and continue the colonization. The longer they wait, the larger their state will be.

Hahaha

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[femtobyte]

Hard to tell exactly what China's politburo will do (ever since Mao died, no one's been answering calls on my special red telephone line to Beijing), but I'm not so sure they'd really want NK expanding like that either. China doesn't want US military bases nestled right up against their border (so they're alright with maintaining NK as a big buffer region), but they aren't exactly thrilled about having a big mass of desperate starving poor people about to spill over the border either (China's not particularly short on population right now). Doubling the size of NK (while wiping out anything of value in South Korea) wouldn't particularly benefit China. In fact, if the US were to break off close relations with South Korea (let them develop as an independent non-aligned state, rather than a neo-colonial puppet for Western interests), I wouldn't be surprised if China hastened along the demise of NK, and let South Korea take over as a friendly ally/trading partner.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Clsid]

Lol what? Maybe you should read more, even if it is Wikipedia:

The British had notified the U.N. of their intent to terminate the mandate not later than 1 August 1948,[47][48] However, early in 1948, the United Kingdom announced its firm intention to end its mandate in Palestine on 14 May. In response, President Harry S. Truman made a statement on 25 March proposing UN trusteeship rather than partition, stating that "unfortunately, it has become clear that the partition plan cannot be carried out at this time by peaceful means... unless emergency action is taken, there will be no public authority in Palestine on that date capable of preserving law and order. Violence and bloodshed will descend upon the Holy Land. Large-scale fighting among the people of that country will be the inevitable result."[49]

The Jewish Leadership, led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel,[50] on the afternoon of Friday, 14 May 1948 (5 Iyar 5708 (Hebrew calendar date).[51][52][53] On the same day, the Provisional Government of Israel asked the US Government for recognition, on the frontiers specified in the UN Plan for Partition.[54] The United States immediately replied, recognizing the provisional government as the de facto authority.[55] Israel was also quickly recognised by the Soviet Union[citation needed] and many other countries,[citation needed] but not by the surrounding Arab states.

Over the next few days, approximately 700 Lebanese, 1,876 Syrian, 4,000 Iraqi, 2,800 Egyptian troops invaded Palestine.[56] Around 4,500 Transjordanian troops, commanded by 38 British officers, who had resigned their commissions in the British army only weeks earlier (commanded by General Glubb), invaded the Corpus separatum region encompassing Jerusalem and its environs (in response to the Haganah's Operation Kilshon[57]), as well as areas designated as part of the Arab state by the UN partition plan.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for a thoughtful and thought provoking answer. It was as illuminating an answer as you could find in any forum. Unfortunately, those kind of answers conflict with the "politically correct propaganda" drilled into the heads of this generation by the left in media and on college campuses. I can only speak for those who don't prefer politically approved (re)education.

            Unfortunately for us all, we cannot transcend the violence due to the greed of those populating government positions worldwide and the populations they control via disinformation. All to protect money, agreements,grudges and power.

Expect a lot of regurgitated embedded opinion from the peanut gallery of regulars. Once again thank you for raising the standards here , if only for a moment.
         

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

It will always be the Jews fault, right? The other side was living in a utopia until Israel was created, no?

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm legitimately curious, when was the last time Israel actually annexed new Palestinian territory? Sure, their still building in the settlements which is problematic, but that land was taken years ago. There are periodic rounds of 'incursions' to address security issues, but these aren't battles of conquest.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. When Arafat was given practically everything he asked for from Ehud Barak Arafat still balked from the deal. Bill Clinton blamed the failure of the Camp David agreement on Arafat alone. But of course that does not matter to you, facts be dammed.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

But wouldn't it take everyone by surprise if North Korea overtook and conquered Palestine, just for the bagels? Anyone who hangs with Dennis Rodman like that, has a few surprises up their sleeve. I'd be keeping my eye on them, because as we all know, China has their back, no matter what posturing is going on now.
What ally of Palestine would even dream of screwing with China? Not happening my friend. We're damn sure not going to take on China. The U.N. is a joke.
Bagels not good enough? See it as a first move towards assimilation of the region. Oil / China, think about it. It could happen.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Omestes]

Jews have been living continuously in the region of Palestine for over 3000 years (the Arabs came later, and invaded around 1400 years ago).

Not going to take sides here, since both sides are reprehensible, and deserve very little sympathy at this point. I take that back, the normal people in both Israel and Palestine deserve it, the bellicose asshats in their governments and outspoken religious authorities deserve none whatsoever. That said; your statement is a bit wonky. Yes, modern Arabs, and later Muslims, were there later than Jews, but this is a bit false, since the root ethnicities and cultures that spawned both were there longer than either. Further "we were there first" is about as idiotic as one can get. Should the Native American tribes be allowed to partition American cities, restrict their ability to food and medicine, and generally treat them all like terrorists, criminals, and subhumans by default? They were here first, after all. Actually Siberians and the Japanese should be allowed to, since their genetic stock is more closely related to the original settlers of North America than most people here now.

No. Both people have to coexist, whether they like it or not. If they can't, I don't care, someone should come in and FORCE them to. And anyone who supports the hostilities of either faction should have as serious sanctions as someone supporting any other terrorist aggressor state, since they really don't hold a moral high ground on any issue anymore. They both are bad guys. No excuse changes this fact. Picking sides is nonsensical, its like arguing over who was less evil, Stalin or Mao.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Shadow of Eternity]

This is going in my folder of permanent ready-made rebuttals. The only things I would add would be citing the Hamas charter's calls for genocide, multiple historical quotes on the origins of the "palestinian" people (mass illegal immigration, etc), and most importantly the direct tie-in of everything: Grand Mufti Husseini and Hitler's alliance and shared goals of genocide, which were continued by the Grand Mufti's nephew under the assumed name of Yasser Arafat.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[femtobyte]

Officially declared "we annex this territory"? Probably not since '73. But settlements, seizing water sources, tearing down olive orchards, building apartheid walls, changing the real situation on the ground: daily. I'm less concerned by "official" territorial boundaries (imaginary lines on a map), than the physical reality "on the ground." Imaginary lines on a map can be re-drawn at any time, and don't hurt anyone; but when people are expelled from their homes, lose access to vital resources, and are replaced by new "innocent civilian" settlers, the real harm is done (and far harder to justly reverse).

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Uberbah]

I don't see the South electing a government with the stated goal of expelling or murdering every resident of the North, flatly stating that any and all negotiations are purely strategic moves to delay fighting when deemed necessary, that the commonly accepted "two state solution" will never be allowed to happen, or refusing to acknowledge the historical incidents predating the formation of their Northern neighbor and otherwise implicitly believing that no Northern citizen has a right to live.

Yeah, I don't like the Likud Charter either:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting. ...
The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[femtobyte]

What the heck are you talking about? Best Korea already owns the universe. Except for Greenland. So, obviously, the next step is for Robo-Rodman to conquer Greenland --- no matter what the Buddhist Illuminati try to pull. With the the Wal*Mart pod-people tied up supplying black helicopters to the Federal Reserve, the hyperintelligent Mars rovers won't stand a chance against the Lizard People of New Brunswick. Vote Ron Paul!

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

femtobyte's comment has been downmodded twice since I last checked this page.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Complicit means involved so of course Isreal is complicit. There will be no happy endings to this conflict until the Arabs can bring themselves to denounce all violence and stop inciting violence against Isreal. And they will have to be damn convincing while doing it. Up until now every piece of land Isreal gives up only provides better artillery positions for the Arabs. The Israelis will never negotiate themselves into a weaker position and as long as they can demolish anyone who attempts to force the issue. And in case you are not paying close attention you should know there is not a single country on the planet with the military capability to defeat Isreal who will go to war against Isreal in support of any "Palestinians". In fact it has taken a great deal of effort for the US to keep Isreal from solving this festering problem once and for all using all of their more than capable military. The world does not need another failed Arab state to deal with and the "Palestinians" can't even get along with themselves. I am pretty sure a 3 state solution is out the question. It's past time for Egypt to reclaim Gaza and Jordan to reclaim the West Bank and give the world a fucking break from all the nonsense.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

I agree with your statements. Sorry if I was unclear. The grandparent was oblique so I was less oblique. Israel actions are much much more moral than those of the Islamist political class (who dominate the Palestinian people).

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Mystakaphoros]

Maybe next Google could put in something where every time someone searched for "Judea and Samaria" it could come up, "No results found. Did you mean the West Bank?"

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[femtobyte]

And upmodded to compensate. Oh well; contentious is more fun than boringly correct (get plenty enough of that already)...

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[myowntrueself]

much less one armed and hostile to the expansion of North Korean power.

So the proper attitude in your opinion is to welcome the DPRK's prison camps?

You can probably understand why the Palestinians don't feel particularly 'welcomed' by the Israeli prison camps. The Gaza Strip is the worlds biggest ever concentration camp.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[LordLimecat]

Well, minus the stifling poverty, ruthless (crazed) dictator, and the WW2-esque prison camps, sure, maybe?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[LordLimecat]

Its still absurd to compare NKorea to basically anyone except North Korea, or historical regimes.

Isnt Israel a democracy that DOESNT stick its people in prison camps?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[fustakrakich]

Yeah well, the alternative would be peace, which would lay to waste the the economies of all the superpowers. Right now business is better than ever. Ms Hillary sold 60 bil last year, just to the Saudis. Let's not spoil a good thing, eh?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[omglolbah]

Well, it doesnt stick "its" people in prison camp, only the people in the country that are undesirable.

It is horribly ironic and sad that some of the views held by the most extreme israeli political players mirror so many of the fascists ideas of nazi germany...

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, both sides want to kill each other.

Both sides end up killing each other, but one side is clearly more committed to the process.

Count how many times each side has apologised for killing innocent people on the other side.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the fuck said that? And you seem to be mixing Jews with Israel - they aren't the same thing, ya know...

There's plenty of blame to go around, but there's a disproportionate amount of killing done by one side in the name of 'defence'. The country that responds to bottle rockets by steamrolling Lebanon back to the stone ages has lost all moral credibility and no longer deserves the support of any nation on this planet.

History has little relevance to those having their homes bulldozed, their governments overthrown and the children killed. Israel is a pariah state. Period.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[fustakrakich]

This land is mine

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

However, the Arabs side chooses to start all the wars.

I know, right? Like Syria - they were bombing the shit out of Israel before they launched yesterday's strike. Oh, wait....

Israel is at the root of all the shit in the ME. You know it, you're just a fucking propagandist for a racist, pariah state with no remaining redeeming qualities. They get bottle rockets tossed at them (very likely aided by Israel themselves to justify their massive military machine) and go on a fucking rampage.

Face it, Israel, the world fucking hates you. It isn't just the arabs. The only friend you have left is the US - and that's only because your lobbyists are sucking cock at the highest levels. But even that will end soon, and you will be wiped from the map. And it won't be just the arabs that rejoice.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[rtb61]

Sorry asshat but the rules are in our times. Not some bullshit date thousands of years because it favours your personal desires today. Pretty blow that religious bullshit out of your ass before ever contemplating using it to kill people or justify theft of their property. It has always been bullshit and will always be bullshit. Whether it was missionaries to the Americas, Salem witch trials, the inquisition, the crusades, the Mughals in India etc. etc. etc. It has always been exactly the same bullshit, a handful of psychopaths at the top hiding behind religion to feed their own personal ego and lusts whilst driving on the ignorant religious masses to fight and die for them.

Palestinian people legally owned most of the land in Israel. A bunch of Palestinian jews together with illegal immigrants initiated a terrorist war to steal those properties and expended the Israeli state from their. The US propped it up because the surrounding Arabic states where leaning towards the Soviet Union. You could bet if the US politicians at the time had known what a huge corrupt pain in the ass the Israeli government and the Mosad would become they would never have done so.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[LordLimecat]

What prison camps are these? Maybe read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel
and compare it to what Nazi Germany did. Tip, trying people in a court and sending them to prison for a week isnt the same thing.

I get that Israel does some shady stuff, but its really important on an issue as touchy as this to try to be objective, and refrain from hyperbole. Neither side has been great about this, both sides have considerable grievances, but neither side is as bad as WW2 Germany or current North Korea.

Perspective, rationality, guys.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Uberbah]

Heh. Or "did you mean the ancestral home of the Canaanites?"

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

Yeah, that's a great video. The excellent Bill Whittle understood this and pointed out that the only unique claims are the first and the last. Since the Cana'anites were destroyed long ago. The next up would be the Philistines (*no* relation to the *Arab* Palestinians), but they were destroyed in 604 BC by Nebuchadnezzar. So that leaves the earliest remaining claimant as Jews and their descendants (eg. Israel). The last claimant is also Israel (for land West of the Jordan River).

I don't mean that Israel should automatically get all the land West of the Jordan. What I mean is that the Israelis have as good a claim as anyone else, and arguably better. There are those who falsely say that Israel was only formed by Europeans after World War II. This is patently false - there have been Jews living in the area continuously for 3000 years. The Zionists did not arrive in 1948 and kick out the native Arab inhabitants as some fantasize - this is simply not true. The Jews have always been in the area and merely declared themselves a state in the same way that Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc all came into being at various times after the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

Palestinian people legally owned most of the land in Israel.

Could you please point to the legal document that shows this? pretty please? you simply won't find it, it doesn't exist. The last unchallenged international resolution was the 1922 League of Nations decision that the *region* of Palestine should be split into a portion for Jews and a portion for Arabs. Originally the Arab portion was to be called Transjordan (later Jordan). The British administering the region created this. Then they reneged on their deal and decided to give *additional* land to the Arabs (at the expense of the territory originally planned for the Jews). The final borders were to be decided by negotiation. Then there were uprising and World War II which slowed things down. After World War II the UN decided that Israel could be formed (and recognized it) and an Arab state could be formed (but the Arabs refused, they wanted everything and thought they could commit genocide to achieve this).

I'm afraid it appears it is you spouting bullshit because you are ignorant of even the basic historical facts of the region. Please do your homework next time - then you might have a chance of forming a historically correct conclusion. Pretty please.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[rtb61]

They are called property titles. Did they exist abso-fucking-lutely and there is not place on this planet that anyone can say they own their own home and prevent someone from simply moving in and taking over with out some form of property. So ESAD with your pathetic lies and propaganda and somehow trying to twist religious or nationalistic 'ownership' as taking precedence of straight up normal recognised personal property ownership. In point of fact the cheating Israeli government passed laws to seize unoccupied legally titled houses (they had to pass laws because yes there were legal records of title of ownership) those properties being unoccupied because they were driven from their homes and the country and forbidden from returning. Really you lying deceiving propagandist why else where those racist and prejudiced laws passed about seizure of unoccupied properties unless there was an outstanding recording title of ownership.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

Sorry, I must have been unclear. I wasn't talking about individual property titles, I was talking about national sovereignty. Could you please show where the Arab Palestinians have some kind of recognized international claim. Pretty please. You won't find it. I've already given a capsule history of sovereignty in the region and the Arab Palestinians have never ever had it (because they never existed - as my references point out, the 'Palestinian' Arab nationality was a fiction invented in 1967 by the PLO so they could destroy Israel - as the PLO admit in their own words [which I reference]).

Yes, I agree there have been some dubious moves by the Israeli Government (many of which I don't personally agree with - which may make you happy, and hopefully will stop your cursing). However, what is being discussed is the legalities of *national sovereignty* under international law. If you would like to find a historical document or internationally recognised legally binding document that abrogates Israelis claim for national sovereignty (ignoring of course, the borders that need to finalized) then I would be very very interested to see it. Thanks.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[fustakrakich]

You know, I honestly don't care Jew from Gentile, and 'right' and 'wrong' obviously don't mean crap. The guy with the biggest gun wins, and everybody else is a bunch of ankle biters.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

That's completely true.

It is something US citizens should keep in mind as Obama progressively dismantles your military and plans to reduce your nuclear deterrent below a credible level. Against unreasonable opponents (eg. Islamic jihad) the "Law of the Jungle" cannot be denied (biggest and most determined wins).

However, against a "reasonable" opponent many things can be solved by negotiation and quid-pro-quo (mutally agreed swaps). The trick is not to confuse reasonable and unreasonable opponents (the Left stupidly treat all opponents as reasonable; the rednecks treat all opponents as unreasonable).

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Internetuser1248]

I think he was referring to the camps outside of Israel, and incidents like this.

Having said that, you are of course right that a comparison to nazi Germany is a great exaggeration. This does not make the behaviour any less reprehensible however.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Should the Native American tribes be allowed to partition American cities... well it seems it would only be fair.

Just implement all the agreements sign with the tribes that were then broken. That would be amusing. Oh and open plains buffalo, I've always liked buffalo.

You don't have to sell me on Native American tribes, I'm already a big fan.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel has existed as a nation in that region for at least 1,200 years, first as a kingdom, and now as a democracy. There was a bit of a gap between the prior kingdom and the current democracy while the Jewish population made its way back after captivity in Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar, and in Europe and Africa courtesy of the Romans.

Sure, let's give back North America do the Indian tribes. And most of Europe to the Romans first and then west part of it to the Celts. Let's give back England to the Britons and Cartage to the Greeks. Let's give Australia to the Aborigines and be right in this all, because hey, all these countries were settled by their present populations, much shorter time ago, then the time it took between some Jewish tribe to get out of Israel and then for some guys with the same religion - but strangely, mostly with white skin and blue eyes - to come back 2000 years later and claim the territory back with weapons given by English, French and now North Americans.

I'm sure this makes absolutely perfect sense.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Worth noting that none of the armies was the army of "palestine".

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

So Winston Churchill was no better than hitler?

Your moral compass is broken again.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

AND dominate Egypt (Muslim Brotherhood), Syra (70,000 dead), Iraq, Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Islamic Regime of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tower Hamlets.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Likud is welcome to fund the future Jewish Palestinian communities with private development aid, which will surely give unassailable satisfaction to the dreamers of the Promised Land. The members of the communities surely appreciate a gift of olive trees which they can symbolically plant with their new neighbors as they reorganize the land use around the Likud mistakes.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[drinkypoo]

Isnt Israel a democracy that DOESNT stick its people in prison camps?

Sure they will. See, they have compulsory military service. Now, tell me what happens if you don't do as you're told when you're a member of a military.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[drinkypoo]

Drawing "moral equivalence" between the two sides ends up equating the genocidal goals of Islam with the right of a UN member State to defend itself against attack. Clearly such an equivalence is a falsehood.

That UN member state was deliberately created by the UN under threat of force. The UN is the aggressor here, which created the situation. As such, all citizens of all UN member nations at the time share the blame for permitting the situation to occur.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[drinkypoo]

You could bet if the US politicians at the time had known what a huge corrupt pain in the ass the Israeli government and the Mosad would become they would never have done so.

On the contrary; the Israeli government has continued to be a massive pain in the ass for their neighbors, which was the whole purpose of the creation of the nation of Israel to begin with. Or did we not catch Lawrence of Arabia?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Jews have been living continuously in the region of Palestine for over 3000 years (the Arabs came later, and invaded around 1400 years ago).

Cool story. In a genetic sense, they are virtually identical. They are both sons of Abraham. Isrealis are simply Arabs that have lived in their own little pocket group for a few thousand years. So I would like you to imagine your arguments, replacing all mentions of either "side" with the word Arab. Because that's how stupid this conflict is.

The real problems are the damn books, they all say conflicting things and some people take it very seriously. It's more about the mount than it is anything else.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

But... we have a FLAG!

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Will no one think of the Canaanites!

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[daath93]

Maybe when you do a Google Search for Portland Oregon it should show "Did you mean the Chinook Indian Nation?"

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[sargon666777]

There are a host of ways to not be forced to join the military in Israel... For the record.. the US ALSO has compulsory military service through the draft, and required registration, and there are a host of ways to get out of it as well. Besides.. you wont find many citizens in Israel that don't want to be in the military.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[drinkypoo]

For the record.. the US ALSO has compulsory military service through the draft,

No, no it does not. It could, but it does not.

Besides.. you wont find many citizens in Israel that don't want to be in the military.

You're not very clever, are you? The whole point was that every citizen is indoctrinated and brainwashed. Of course their kids want to join the military.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[tibman]

The US still has the draft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlike what you think, in IDF (Israeli Defense Forces), officers and soldiers are not under obligation to do fulfill orders that they consider to be immoral. This is section of the military law unique to Israel. No other army in the world has anything close.

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

In IDF, soldiers and officers are not under obligation to do as they are told if what they are told is immoral or unethical under their beliefs. And newsflash: Judaism is the foundation of the ethical monotheism that was later inherited by the other monotheistic religions.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[LordLimecat]

I hadnt heard of that, thanks for posting.

My general point was that in discussions on Israel it seems like people take one side and dont want to admit that their side has done a lot to cause the problem. They will defend Israel, and ignore the questionable tactic of collective punishment or the ways in which Israel seems to try to provoke attacks. Or they will defend Palestine on the idea that we can ignore that Israel has been around for 70 years now, and we cant just pretend that the people there dont belong; and that any past injustices warrant any action whatsoever against civilian populatons; and that Israel somehow shouldnt be concerned over the repeated calls for its discussion.

If you cant recognize the flaws of your own "side" in a discussion, theres a strong chance you have the blinders on and are living in an echo chamber.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[LordLimecat]

*discussion--> destruction

Re: USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

And your source is...?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Murdering scumbag.

You are of course referring to the young men who bombed the Boston Marathon.

Or perhaps the 70,000 murdered in Syria - Arabs killing Arabs.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[LordLimecat]

Free will? Personal responsiblity? Whats that?

Nah, theyre just robots without the ability to decide for themselves. And NO Israeli youths are disillusioned, right?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[flyneye]

Can I be Frodo this time?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[flyneye]

As I recall Titus came along and kicked their asses around and conquered there. Perhaps we could settle this by giving it to the Italians.
Hey, if China can reclaim anything it ever owned, Italy should too. It could be fun if you think about it. From Britannia to India, from Egypt to Spain, let the Roman Empire Reign. Cabbage at Carthage, what a blast it would be for all. We can dispense with all this Muslim talk and Jewry , just O.P.P,for some good old fashioned sex and violence the O.G. way.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[drinkypoo]

The US still has the draft

No, it doesn't. It still has registration for the draft. This has been the case since 1973, as per your own link. Next time you might want to find a citation that doesn't directly contradict your statement...

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Omestes]

hy is this? because Israel's position is that it will live peaceably with the Arabs if they are prepared to sign a permanent peace treaty on fair terms. The Arab political position is simple: genocide for the Jews as laid out in the Qur'an and hadiths.

This is a fallacious statement. There are "genocidal" Jews in Israel, and peace-loving Arabs in Palestine. Sadly on both sides the genocidal factions get the most press and power. The settler and hardline Zionists are just as bad, really, as the extremists among the Arabs.

There was a point where you could say "this side has higher ground", but I feel that that time passed long ago. There has too much violence and extremism at this point for anyone to say anyone has clean hands anymore.

The Jews should have settled there like they did. The Arabs shouldn't have reacted as they did. The Jews should have struck back as they did... The Arabs should have retaliated in that way... Etc...

Drawing "moral equivalence" between the two sides ends up equating the genocidal goals of Islam with the right of a UN member State to defend itself against attack. Clearly such an equivalence is a falsehood.

That would be picking sides... No, the aggressors on both sides should be stuck down, both Arab and Jew, allowing the normal folk who just want to raise their families live peaceably. The Arabs shouldn't get a pass, any more than the more hateful bits of the Zionist movement. Occupy Isreal/Palestine, then throw anyone who breaks the peace, Jew or Arab, on a desert island, naked, and let them sort it out like men, without letting innocents suffer.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Omestes]

So Winston Churchill was no better than hitler?

Did I say that? Did my cat sneak into my room with invisible bits while I was typing that? I've re-read my message three times now, even with my special glasses, and can't see where I wrote that.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

Throwing people in jail for a week??

Are you serious???

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[tibman]

lol, yes. Registration for the thing the US doesn't have, right?

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

Actually the legal basis for Israel goes back to the League of Nations in 1922 and the British Mandate. One of the first videos I posted in my original post explains the legal case, FYI. I suggest you check it out. Then we have the UN Resolution After that we have many wars (all the surrounding nations thought they could eliminate Israel through genocide). It is the wars that have shaped the current boundaries. Ignoring what boundary should be where (which, should be settled by negotiation without precondition, as was originally planned and the Israelis continue to say) it all comes down to a simple question: does Israel have a right to exist? given the continuous history of Jews in the area for 3000 years, the fact that Jews arrived in the late 19th Century and legally purchased land and the fact that the international community have repeatedly acknowledged the case for Israel where it is, then the answer to the question is pretty much *yes*. After that it is all details. The answer the Arabs give is *no*, despite the fact the Arabs did not own the territory - the former clearly recognized owners were the Ottoman Empire (for several hundred years) followed by the British under a League of Nations mandate (who then prepared the basis for the state of Israel).

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

This is a fallacious statement. There are "genocidal" Jews in Israel, and peace-loving Arabs in Palestine. Sadly on both sides the genocidal factions get the most press and power. The settler and hardline Zionists are just as bad, really, as the extremists among the Arabs.

More moral equivalence, and I'm afraid this is false. Yes, I fully agree that the hardline religious right in Israel is dangerous. It turns out so does the Israel Government, who cracks down on them (when they can, given they are a democracy so need to amass sufficient votes to get the laws passed to do this).

The point that it appears you have missed (as do many others) is not what individual people choose to do (there are crazies in all societies) but what are the relative positions of the respective Governments. The Israeli Government is not genocidal - think about it, if they wanted to eliminate and ethically cleans the non-Israeli Arabs (don't forget over 1 million Israelis are Arab) they could have easily done so (given the many wars and their overwhelming military power). The Israel Government takes great care not to harm Palestinian citizens (look at "Operation Pillar of Cloud", it is clear the Israelis care more about Palestinian citizens than Hamas does. Consider that the Israelis calling off strikes if Palestinian citizens are near; calling Palestinian citizens to warn them to leave buildings etc; treating Palestinian citizens in Israeli hospitals; even if this means rockets may continue to be launched at Israeli citizens!. Meanwhile Hamas targets Israeli citizens with indiscriminate rocket fire (12000 so far) which is a clear war crime, and Hamas builds bunkers to protect its men and rockets but refuses to let Palestinian citizens to shelter there (using armed force to keep them out) and instead prefers the Palestinian citizens be "involuntarily matyred" as human shields - as they can then use this for propaganda purposes (when they aren't busy displaying babies killed by their own misfired rockets [falsely blaming it on Israelis], or copying photos of dead Syrians and claiming the Israelis killed Palestinians etc. please Google "Pallywood" to see the lies the Palestinians use).

That would be picking sides...

I understand you are afraid that by picking sides you would enable equally bad people to carry out bad actions. However, as I've tried to point out (and I recommend you watch the links in my first post, please :) ) there is one side that has a stated goal (in Arabic) of committing genocide and ethnic cleansing, and the other side does not want to be killed by genocide and "swept into the sea" as the Arabs state repeatedly. Here is a good quote that sums the situation up, "If the Arabs laid down their arms there would be peace tomorrow; if the Israelis laid down their arms there would be no more Israel". See how the situation is not equivalent? In this case it not only moral to pick the Israeli side, it is immoral not too - ignoring repeated attempts and a stated Palestinian policy of genocide should not be ignored. Therefore, one is forced to pick sides.

No, the aggressors on both sides should be stuck down, both Arab and Jew, allowing the normal folk who just want to raise their families live peaceably. The Arabs shouldn't get a pass, any more than the more hateful bits of the Zionist movement. Occupy Isreal/Palestine, then throw anyone who breaks the peace, Jew or Arab, on a desert island, naked, and let them sort it out like men, without letting innocents suffer.

Please read the history then. You will find that the Arabs started all the wars. In 1967 the Arabs were preparing another war (already had shelling in the Sinai and a naval blockade of Israel) when the Israelis per-emptively struck (if they hadn't then they'd been gone, and the Arabs would have been able to carry out their *stated goal* of genocide).

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

"outspoken religious authorities deserve none whatsoever" :

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=1314
interview with Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem Theophilos III:

Q: How much of a role does the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate play in speaking about Palestinian rights, especially with its close proximity to areas like Silwan? Does the church feel a responsibility to take a political stance on the issue? ...
A:
Politically speaking, everybody has claims over Jerusalem and everybody wants Jerusalem to be his or her own capital. But from the religious point of view, Jerusalem is the capital of God. And my personal position is that Jerusalem breathes with three lungs: a Christian lung, a Jewish lung and an Islamic lung. And those lungs, they breathe harmoniously. This is how we see the future of Jerusalem.

Pretty outspoken. Pretty deserving of sympathy.

But go ahead and keep believing the polarizing lie that there are only TWO legitimate religious
communities here, and that they are synonymous with hebraic and arabic ethnicity.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Lew-the-nerd]

Let's not sneak in hyperbole to make a point. That is childish and intellectually dishonest.

Palestinians send rockets with the intent of killing people (3000 rocket attacks/attempts in the year before the Gaza 'war.'. Their rockets are packed with explosives and, if they do kill someone, there is lots of celebrating.

What is the appropriate response to Palestinian attempts to kill people in large bunches?

If Israelis are 'bombing them back to the stone age' why is it that the West Bank economy is flourishing and there are four times as many Palestinians now as there were in 1948.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Lew-the-nerd]

And.....
If the Palestinians wish to preserve lives, they would not purposefully put their rocket emplacements and stores in the midst of civilian dwellings and close to hospitals and mosques.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[lsatenstein]

Yes, both sides want to kill each other, that's the problem in a nutshell.

---
I am favorably biased towards Israel and with Israels wanting preconditions to peace. All the Arab countries have said, "We will wipe Israel off the map". Israel has said, if you want to be recognized, it is reciprocal. Recognize the State of Israel. We are here, we are not going away.

Instead you Arabs want the return of lands (some of which we are prepared to negotiate) and you will still persist in wanting our annihilation. The 1967 borders, (like the Mexico vs Texas and Arizona borders) is not on the table.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[drinkypoo]

lol, yes. Registration for the thing the US doesn't have, right?

That is correct. Words have meanings, and you are failing them. Other countries not having draft registration doesn't mean they can't institute a draft at any time. They simply have registrationless drafting. Instead of drafting selective individuals (which is why the thing you doubtless think of as a "Draft office" is actually the selective service) other countries will simply employ press gangs in the case of a draft, and grab people off the street and slap them into a uniform. We don't do that because we don't use cannon fodder, we have a lovely thing called tactics. In order for it to work, we need people at least physically fit to be soldiers. We're not going to put your grandma in khakis and drop her in front of a tank to slow it down. That's why we need a selective service, that's why we have draft registration without a draft, and that's why you need to consult your dictionary.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[drinkypoo]

Actually the legal basis for Israel goes back to the League of Nations in 1922 and the British Mandate.

Actually, the League of Nations was a failure, because no one took it seriously.

Then we have the UN Resolution After that we have many wars (all the surrounding nations thought they could eliminate Israel through genocide). It is the wars that have shaped the current boundaries.

Yes, those boundaries are even worse bullshit than the "original" boundaries of "Israel".

Ignoring what boundary should be where (which, should be settled by negotiation without precondition, as was originally planned and the Israelis continue to say) it all comes down to a simple question: does Israel have a right to exist? given the continuous history of Jews in the area for 3000 years, the fact that Jews arrived in the late 19th Century and legally purchased land and the fact that the international community have repeatedly acknowledged the case for Israel where it is, then the answer to the question is pretty much *yes*.

Given that Jews were 10% of the population of the area and were driven out by force, and you want to suggest that the wars should be able to push the boundaries around, the answer to the question is pretty much no. Either using force to establish territory is valid, in which case the Jews were already kicked out of the region by completely valid means, or it isn't, in which case the nation of Israel was created under completely specious conditions.

The answer the Arabs give is *no*, despite the fact the Arabs did not own the territory

If it's valid to create an Israeli state in the region by act of violence, which is what happened, then it's valid to create a Palestinian state in the region by act of violence, right over the top of Israel.

Also...

which, should be settled by negotiation without precondition, as was originally planned and the Israelis continue to say

They can say anything they want, but it's clear they believe no such thing. They've adjusted the borders a couple times now, pray they do not adjust them again. They have no intention of settling this problem by negotiation, and if you bought that lie in the face of obvious counterevidence then there's really nothing anyone can do to help you wake up.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[sargon666777]

Have you ever been to Israel? I have.. many times.. I have yet to witness anyone being indoctrinated.. Perhaps you should make a convincing argument rather than resorting to personal attacks.. In regards to the U.S. not having a draft.. what exactly are we forcing everyone to register for.. See: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/draft2.htm

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[tibman]

That's why the US has draft registration without a draft? No, you're wrong. There is draft registration so that there can be a draft. I think you partially understand how the US Army works though. But don't think that recruits have to be strong or fit. They just have to be able to follow directions. Training will make them fit. That's why selective service is ALL 18 year old males. That's pretty selective, eh?

Also, you are constantly an asshole on slashdot. I'm failing "words have meanings"? I believe that is typically called misunderstanding. Stop attacking anyone who disagrees with you before you end up a lonely old man.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Anonymous Coward]

The Palestinian Arabs in camps are in UN camps, not in Israeli camps.
These camps are in Arab territory, not Israeli. There are some UN camps inside the West Bank, under PA administration.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Pseudonym]

Yes, that's a good point that's often lost.

Incidentally, I do think that one of the bigger villains in the conflict is the US media. They almost never cover Israeli opposition parties who advocate more rights and autonomy for Palestinians, or Palestinian non-violent resistance movements. The inevitable result of this is that only stupidity and mindless belligerence gets noticed on both sides, and so it becomes self-perpetuating on both sides.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[SplashMyBandit]

Actually, the League of Nations was a failure, because no one took it seriously.

I agree. In 1922 the League was relatively fresh. It was later everyone ignored it (same with the UN after the Communist+Islamic 'Red/Green' alliance set up a voting bloc that allowed crazy resolutions after about 1970 - which one of the videos I posted in an earlier comment shows how that came about). The main thing to take away is, *under international law there is a legal basis for Israel* (many deny that there is this basis). We can quibble about where the borders ought to be, but the position of many in the UN's OIC voting bloc is that there should be no Israel whatsoever - which it not in line with accepted international law.

Yes, those boundaries are even worse bullshit than the "original" boundaries of "Israel".

Ok, so would it be safe to assume that you don't think Israel should exist at all? that would explain the rest of your post - but it would be nice if you 'came out' in front of other Slashdotters so they could judge how reasonable you are (as in, you agree with the genocidal aims of the Palestinian Arabs, yes?).

Given that Jews were 10% of the population of the area and were driven out by force, and you want to suggest that the wars should be able to push the boundaries around, the answer to the question is pretty much no. Either using force to establish territory is valid, in which case the Jews were already kicked out of the region by completely valid means, or it isn't, in which case the nation of Israel was created under completely specious conditions.

Well, either you believe in force as the basis of authority or you don't. If you do believe in force as the basis of national authority then Israel deserves to keep the land it has - and might as well annex Judea and Samaria under the same 'rule of force' rules you propose. If you believe that force/conquest does not legitimize national sovereignity then you then have to turn to the legal basis of these things, in which case Israel is legal and the status of Judea/Samaria/West Bank remains officially "disputed" territory to be resolved by negotiation. Either way, Israel has the right to be in Israel proper and the only thing left is the sovereignty of the "disputed" territory of the West Bank (do the Jordanians own it, or does Israel? that's the question to be resolved).

If it's valid to create an Israeli state in the region by act of violence, which is what happened, then it's valid to create a Palestinian state in the region by act of violence, right over the top of Israel.

False and shows you don't know even the basics of the 20th Century history of the region. It is no wonder your statements seem profoundly ignorant from the position of anyone who does know the history. Israel was set up by League of Nations mandate followed by UN recognition. The violence was the Arab Legion (including armies from five nations) attacking the day after Israel was recognized by the UN (and the Arab League had the stated goal of genocide). There was Arab vs Jew violence under the British, but this was inter-community tension not related directly for the political formation of Israel (there were terrorist attacks against the British, but you are talking about the Arab vs Jewish conflict, yes?). If you look at the history it is clear that the Israelis always fight wars that are 'strategically defensive' in nature because they are attacked by the strategically offensive Arabs. The Israelis do use 'tactical offense' as part of their strategically defensive posture. I hope you have enough military knowledge to know the difference. *It is the Israelis under attack by the Arab Ummah/jihadis/Iranian proxies and rocket fire etc* and it is the Israelis who are on the *strategic defensive*. If you hate aggression then you ought to look at the *strategic aggressor*, which is the Islamists.

They can say anyth

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Yakasha]

I get that Israel does some shady stuff, but its really important on an issue as touchy as this to try to be objective, and refrain from hyperbole. Neither side has been great about this, both sides have considerable grievances, but neither side is as bad as WW2 Germany or current North Korea.

Perspective, rationality, guys.

This is all I want. I'm get worked up by the Rush Limbaugh quality opinions.

As soon as the rockets and suicide bombings stop, I'll start attacking the 2nd biggest threat to peace in the Israeli/Palestinian issue: Israel.

Re:USA:Israel::China:BestKorea

[Yakasha]

I don't see the South electing a government with the stated goal of expelling or murdering every resident of the North, flatly stating that any and all negotiations are purely strategic moves to delay fighting when deemed necessary, that the commonly accepted "two state solution" will never be allowed to happen, or refusing to acknowledge the historical incidents predating the formation of their Northern neighbor and otherwise implicitly believing that no Northern citizen has a right to live.

Yeah, I don't like the Likud Charter either:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting. ... The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

Which part of the charter claims the inferiority of "The Jew", or in this case the Palestinians? Or states that peace negotiations are only strategic moves?

None of it.

The comparison is still invalid. Wildly invalid.

I declare Jihad on Google.

[Anonymous Coward]

Um. Nevermind.

Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Karganeth]

He just removed "territories" from the "Palestine territories" google picture because he thought it looked better. Now every major news outlet is carrying this (non)story.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Samantha Wright]

While it's an amusing thought, Google actually consulted the UN and is rolling out the change across all of their products. (mumble mumble rtfa)

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[He Who Has No Name]

...except the UN has stated they are not a nation, or a sovereign, and cannot recognize nations or governments. The UN's response has nothing to do with the international legitimacy of a Palestinian state.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Anonymous Coward]

Some map providers in Canada do this by changing "Happy Valley Goose Bay" to simply "Goose Bay". It causes widespread riots in the populated and dangerous land of Labrador.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Khashishi]

Only that the UN is in a better position to recognize a nation than pretty much any other entity.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Squiddie]

I'm pretty sure Google has more power than many small nations and the UN.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Mr. Slippery]

The UN's response has nothing to do with the international legitimacy of a Palestinian state.

Since Israel's only claim to legitimacy is the U.N.'s declaration, I suppose this means no legitimate state occupies that land?

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[rwa2]

Ha ha, just as well. I can imagine the poor guy.... when I was a kid a decade or so ago I was a devmin for a small UN site and, uh "accidentally" filed the West Bank and Gaza under Israel in the database hierarchy.

Fortunately my client at the World Bank with a bit more knowledge of world events that I received from US HS History set me straight before we pushed it to production.

But I suppose this balances it all out then!

Still, it's amazing how much trouble "kids these days" can get into for doing the same shit we did when we were young.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[cold fjord]

Since Israel's only claim to legitimacy is the U.N.'s declaration, I suppose this means no legitimate state occupies that land?

Israel is self-certifying at this point, so that is nonsense. You do know that nations existed before the UN came along too, right?

Besides that, there have been Jews there continuously for thousands of years, and several Jewish states on that land.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[jrumney]

Even before the UN decision, Palestine had more international recognition from nation states than Taiwan.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[TapeCutter]

Israel did not arise from a UN mandate, they won statehood by fighting a war of independence.

The Zionist movement declared itself to be an independent nation, that declaration triggered the 1948 war with neighboring states, Israel won. About a year after the war the UN had no real choice other than to recognize them as a state, (they had a functioning government and well defined borders). Before Israel's declaration of independence the league of nations (UN) had planned to partition the territories, the Zionists symbolically made their independence claim on the day the partition was due to come into force.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[DaHat]

Since Israel's only claim to legitimacy is the U.N.'s declaration, I suppose this means no legitimate state occupies that land?

Riiiight.

Lets just ignore the fact that their claims to legitimacy pre-date the existence of the UN: The Legal Case for Israel

But why let facts and history get in the way?

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. The UN HAS stated Palestine is an "observer state". Those are the exact two words they used.

Go fuck yourself, you Nazi supporter! (Yes, the Israeli government is a neo-Nazi government. The fact that they are also Jews makes this very ironic and probably causes the Holocaust victims to turn in their graves at over 9000 RPM.)

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Uberbah]

Israel is self-certifying at this point, so that is nonsense

You mean, the "wait out the clock" game that has been the Zionist goal since they first started to steal land from Palestinians in the 30's. Which is also rich, coming from the nation still pursuing Nazi war criminals and stolen assets from the 30's. If human beings lived 500 years Israel would still be hunting those people and assets down in the year 2400 A.D. But land stolen in an aggressive war of choice in 1967? 46 years is toooo loooong ago to worry about!

You do know that nations existed before the UN came along too, right?

You know that's an irrelevant comparison, right? The is no equivalence for Israel, where a nation is carved out of existing land and people for the benefit of an immigrant population. There was no U.N. recognizing American statehood in the 1600's at the expense of Native Americans.

Besides that, there have been Jews there continuously for thousands of years, and several Jewish states on that land.

Ah, the "continuous presence" canard. Problem: at 1900, Jews made up less than 10% of the population of Palestine. The "declaration of independence" was a land grab from a bunch of European immigrants no better than Manifest Destiny.

Second problem: if the surrounding Arab nations were to militarily "wipe Israel off the map", you'd have to be okay with that, because of a "continuing Palestinian presence" in the area.

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Mystakaphoros]

Good point. Let us not forget that Nicaragua invaded Costa Rica and planted a flag a mile or two over the border a few years ago because of an error on Google Maps. http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/11/google-maps-error-blamed-for-nicaraguan-invasion/

Re:Imagine The Poor Guy Who Changed This

[Anonymous Coward]

The is no equivalence for Israel, where a nation is carved out of existing land and people for the benefit of an immigrant population

You mean like Texas? Of course that is why the US supports them!

Good. It's about time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good. It's about time.

EOM

Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

If they don't like what you've done, you've probably done the right thing.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

It's sad how easily knee-jerk idiocy like this is mistaken for insight when you are blinded by hatred.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Like firing missiles into populated areas?

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Hentes]

That's an overgeneralization. Iran's nuclear program doesn't become good just because it annoys Israel.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Nor does it become bad because it annoys Israel.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

If they don't like what you've done, you've probably done the right thing.

The only problem with that theory is that most Israelis can't wait to revoke Israeli-Arabs citizenships, voting rights and social security benefits on the grounds of dual nationality or as supporters \ members of an enemy state.

What people don't realize is that Israel is still essentially a socialist state. While not quite the kibbutz some folks imagine it to be, it's still impossible to live here on a median income without the tax breaks and heavy subsidies citizens are provided with. And, since almost everything (especially utilities like water and electricity) is government owned or managed, the median wages have adjusted to just barely cover housing and food. e.g. Most folks don't even handle their pension plan since the law forces the employers to manage that for the employees along with filing their income taxes.

That's right, in Israel, unless your self employed, you don't file your income tax yourself. Your boss does it for you.

Right now, 30% of Israeli universities students are Palestinians who receive the usual 50% student subsidies. Then, there's child support, free health care, almost free medication, almost free education from ages 3-18... That's 20% of the population suddenly finding themselves one day without the means to support their families, possibly themselves and without any meaningful savings since they never made enough money in the first place.

But hey, since us Israelis don't like it, it's probably a good idea...

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Pseudonym Authority]

Rule of thumb for Zionists - if it's critical of Israel in anyway, call it racist.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Just so you know, plenty of Jews think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is two groups of extremist shitheads making things worse for everyone.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[cold fjord]

Rule of thumb for "anti-Zionists" - Watch them - too few can stop themselves from crossing the line into either effective or outright anti-Semitism.

The European Left and Its Trouble With Jews

Today, a sizable section of the European left has been reluctant to take a clear stand when anti-Zionism spills over into anti-Semitism. Beginning in the 1990s, many on the European left began to view the growing Muslim minorities in their countries as a new proletariat and the Palestinian cause as a recruiting mechanism. The issue of Palestine was particularly seductive for the children of immigrants, marooned between identities.

Capitalism was depicted as undermining a perfect Islamic society while cultural imperialism corrupted Islam. The tactic has a distinguished revolutionary pedigree. Indeed, the cry, “Long live Soviet power, long live the Shariah,” was heard in Central Asia during the 1920s after Lenin tried to cultivate Muslim nationalists in the Soviet East once his attempt to spread revolution to Europe had failed. But the question remains: why do today’s European socialists identify with Islamists whose worldview is light-years removed from their own? . . . more

The view of the Times is too timid - anti-Semitism is becoming a disease of the left.

Re: Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Rule of thumb for anti Zionists: it is always acceptable when Palestinians do it.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Pseudonym Authority]

Yeah, sure. Your strategy will probably work -- call criticism of Israel racist enough then people will side with you to avoid the label. Don't think for a second that you have the moral high ground though. It's just propaganda, you are no better than Pravda or Glenn Beck.

Re: Rule of thumb on Israel

[Pseudonym Authority]

There's blame on all sides. The Palestinians and Israelis both act like a bunch of violent monsters. I don't even really care that Israel is matching their butchery. That is, after all, how wars are won, and I'm not directly effected. It's not something that I like my government to be apart of, and I especially hate it when Israel tries to present itself the beacon of morality in the region, and pretend that they are any more dignified than the Muslims. The entire region is full of greedy, hateful thugs and I wish they would both stop spilling blood over a meaningless desert and go away.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Uberbah]

But hey, since us Israelis don't like it, it's probably a good idea...

Obvious context was Israeli policies and aggression towards the native population. That Israel has some great schools and water management policies doesn't have much to do with their practice of Apartheid.

Re: Rule of thumb on Israel

[Uberbah]

The Palestinians and Israelis both act like a bunch of violent monsters

Were Native Americans fighting dispossession and Apartheid from European immigrants a "bunch of violent monsters", or were they legitimately pissed that their land was being stolen and their culture destroyed?

Re: Rule of thumb on Israel

[Pseudonym Authority]

Their anger was legitimate, as is Israel's and Palestine's perhaps. This is a very good analogy, as the Europeans and American's were a bunch of monsters, but the natives weren't a band of happy-go-lucky people living in harmony with the land either. They liked to scalp innocents in their bloodlust just as much as Whites' liked to systematically starve them and infect them with disease. Of course, at the time, no one paid attention to all the treaties the US broke to exterminate them, and many people got rich off the newly annexed land. With time, we've come to be a bit more honest with ourselves, which is something that Israel has yet to do. How will history view Israel's conquest I wonder....

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Alomex]

I call BS on your entire post. You say:

Right now, 30% of Israeli universities students are Palestinians

Here's the actual data from the government of Israel:

Among 251,800 students in 2010/11 at academic institutions, 11% (27,400) were Arabs, constituting 13.6% of the students in bachelor's programs at universities and 7.7% of the university students studying for a master's degree.

Another example:

What people don't realize is that Israel is still essentially a socialist state.

Israel left behind its socialists beginnings long ago, around the time of Bibi's first term in 1996.

Third one:

And, since almost everything (especially utilities like water and electricity) is government owned or managed,

Let me FTFY:

Outside of utilities like water and electricity as well as airports which are publicly owned like in many other countries, Israel is very much a free market economy with a large number of private enterprises including a healthy number of technological startups I might add.

Fourth one:

Most folks don't even handle their pension plan since the law forces the employers to manage that for the employees along with filing their income taxes.

Gosh that sounds eerily like the bastion of Marxism, the ol' USA, where GM along with all other big companies manages (or at least used to manage before many of them went bankrupt) its employee retirement funds.

Re: Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey thanks for calling my home a meaningless desert. My family has lived here for thousands of years, as have many of my friends. Never mind that our meaningless nation has produced many nobel prize winners, given you a large part of what is in your phones and computers. Never mind that many of our medical treatments and technologies have probably saved your life. And never mind that even our techniques for managing water and agriculture make the world a better place and are often given away for free.

So now that we both agree my country is meaningless, can you please explain how we are butchering Palestinians? I'm not denying that people get killed, that there is collateral damage, and uncomfortable situations. I guarded the borders at times in my reserve service, and I went into some uncomfortable places as a combat soldier. Perhaps my English is not good enough, but I think you trivialize the word butcher. There is a big difference between killing civilians purposely via terrorist attacks with no military value vs. firing back at a position a rocket was shot from at your country.

Our leaders are inept and don't protect us enough, but I have to give them credit because no other country in the entire world would let what we let happen to our own people. I'd really like to see the response if Mexicans started blowing up pizza parlors and shopping malls in the US, then firing rockets at Washington and New York. From the looks of it so far, even anything remotely close has resulted in several year long massive wars and the scrambling of trillions of dollars of military equipment and personnel.

No one but some stray lunatics in Israel are claiming we are the beacon of morality. But we do a good bit part for everyone, including our enemies and we are certainly on par or better than most of the world. Standing and watching things happen is just as bad BTW, and I'm rather sickened by the response of the world for example to the situation in Africa.

We protect our home because we must. We protect our home because no one will protect us - your desire of wanting your govt. to not care expressed this. We therefore need a home of our home and to protect and fight for ourselves. Last time we were not able to do that, it worked out pretty well for us, wouldn't you say? And the same thing happened again and again throughout history. Our country has been destroyed enough times already and we are tired of it.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[myowntrueself]

Rule of thumb for "anti-Zionists" - Watch them - too few can stop themselves from crossing the line into either effective or outright anti-Semitism.

If it were anti-semitic it would be against Arabs as well.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Rule of thumb for Islamists.

Any criticism of Al Qada, Hamass, Hezbullah, Egypt, Islamist Regime of Iran, Muslim Brotherhood Egypt, Syria (70,000 dead) is ISLAMOPHOBIC!

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with being anti-JEW? The Jews are the ones responsible for most of the suffering on earth. Your own country has been taken over by untouchable, supremacist Jews. Tens of millions of people were killed in the last century by Jews (Bolshevik Russia).

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Since humanity started in Africa, we are all Africans - regardless of the amount of melanine.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[cold fjord]

If it were anti-semitic it would be against Arabs as well.

Not in general usage, no, just Jews.

Antisemitism

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite".

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[1] and that has been its normal use since then.[2] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[3] . . . more

It is an amusing notion though that anti-Semites can't choose to hate whom they will due to a technical obscurity that isn't anywhere near general usage.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[myowntrueself]

The problem is that most of the time the hatred of people who are labeled 'antisemites' is not directed at a race but at something more akin to a geopolitical entity. I can't say they hate the Jewish religion as thats almost entirely racial (at least according to the rabbis in Israel who maintain that you can't be 'a Jew' unless your mother is Jewish). Rather, the 'antisemites' hate something thats more political/economic than religious/racial or even ethnic. For example, I bet most antisemites would hate white European Jews as much as they would hate black African Jews or Middle Eastern authentically semitic Jews (who anyone would have difficulty telling from an Arab).

The use of the term is further watered down by Jews who use it as a generic insult; I have even heard a Jew calling ANOTHER JEW an 'antisemite', in much the same way as a British person might call someone 'a cunt'.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[myowntrueself]

Since humanity started in Africa, we are all Africans - regardless of the amount of melanine.

Some of us are halfbreed Neanderthals, Denisovans or Homo-erectus. I guess the only people who are in a position to be properly racist are Africans.. the only real pure blooded humans.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry about that 30% misquote. I was referring to an old number regarding Haifa University. However, the 11% you're referring to is a misquote referring solely to universities, not to all the academic institutions. If you know any Hebrew. Read this:
http://www.knesset.gov.il/mmm/data/pdf/m02282.pdf
Now adjust for regions (universities here are situated in major metropolitans and offer little to no student dorms), special circumstances (one university is in a settlement, another prides itself on it's religious studies...) and all the professions that Arabs can't practice in since the only employers for said degrees is the public sector (and the fake private companies... see next paragraph), and you end up with a number almost twice the one you're quoting.
The best examples are the medical students which are just about under 20% or roughly the size of the Arab population as contracted by the low number of Arab law students... There's also little representation in engineering, and agriculture and really anything which doesn't lead to medical practitioners and teachers since those are the only two sectors that hire and require Arab-Israelis a degree.

As for the financial context, privatization in Israel was and is done in the Soviet oligarchical sense: Individuals associated with the government are given bank loans to buy government property. Technically, the companies are listed private which posters a nice friendly front of a free market to foreign investors. In reality, heavy regulations, monopolies and strong unions keep competition away. Said individuals are rarely if ever accounted for their actions and are almost always bailed out and their debts are written off.

As for the GM employee retirement funds you're referring too, is it regulated ? Does GM pay everyone a minimum that reflects the projected life-expectancy as opposed to a percent of their salary ? Is it so wide spread that the social security benefits for the elderly were lowered to reflect this indirect tax ? Are the retirement funds trusted in only one of three government sanctioned plans that invest the vast majority of the money back into those fake private companies I've mentioned earlier ?

And you mentioned they used to manage... Note that the companies themselves don't get to manage the trust. They are legally ordered to transfer the money to a government sanctioned plan. That is, it's in effect a tax.

There are a whole range of this little indirect taxes everywhere. Take the Annual vehicle inspection, in the states these are roughly 2-4 times the minimum wage and are usually preformed by state operated establishments along side certified private business. The certified inspector become certified after a small fee (2-3 times) for a test. The private certified institution itself also pays a small fee for yearly inspections. Now, compare that with Israel's fee: 20 times the minimum wage for an inspection in only private certified business which themselves pay the usual 50% tax and also about a salary or two in fees for the right to preform the inspections.

Here's a few more little insiders notes about the local cesspool of an economy: the prices of fruits, vegetables, bread, milk, water and electricity are all regulated not just as some fraction or equation, but are specific official issues daily, fixed prices that the produce is soled to the grocers and consumers. This numbers don't reflect the cost of producing the products so in the last couple of years the electrical company (the only) has reported losses which the government naturally infused money to cover those losses. Since the US has farming subsides too I don't need to explain how that works so just imagine in Israel this applies to almost everything with 200+ employees.
e.g. Two years ago we had a fruit juice packaging plant with some 150 employees get bailed out in a most creative way: The army bought off their products at twice the market price.

Discloser: I'm copy-pasting half of this figures and little factoids from a report jointly writte

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[dilipm]

What's wrong with being anti-JEW? The Jews are the ones responsible for most of the suffering on earth.

Could your provide some numbers to establish this as a fact? I would be delighted to see if this in fact is the case. If this is true though, then we know at least who are the right people to confront? I mean, we've been pointlessly killing each other since the beginning of modern human civilization, so..

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[hazah]

I keep reading your posts with this bizzare slant that there's a "native" population that isn't Israeli. I hate to break this to you (again, that is. As I've seen the replies too... but appearantly you've not been reading, or can't seem to grasp it, whatever) but whatever population you *may* be referring to had been conquered. Welcome to planet Earth, dipshit. We're now almost 70 years into the future of these events. EVERYONE LIVING THERE IS NATIVE. Your hate is barberic, uncivilized and unsophisticated. Sad.

Re:Rule of thumb on Israel

[jd99gst]

South Korean employers also files taxes on behalf of employees. What exactly is the problem with that?

A First for Google

[cervesaebraciator]

After much deliberation, they thought "Palestine Beta" would cause yet more controversy.

all part of the big ploy?

[crutchy]

the rothschild family and the queen of england are just trying to use their proxies (including google) to spark conflict in the middle east to trigger world war 3, collapse the US dollar and invoke the new world order... in preparation for the nazis to return from the dark side of the moon with their army of rock spiders

Re:all part of the big ploy?

[xstonedogx]

Silly goose. Everyone knows rock spiders are from Mars.

Re:all part of the big ploy?

[Ambiguous Coward]

Someone didn't watch the documentary Apollo 18.

Also, it was the Russians.

Re:all part of the big ploy?

[unitron]

No Illuminati, no Knights Templar, no Free Masons, no Opus Dei, no Rosicrucians.

And you expect us to believe there's an actual conspiracy?

Re:all part of the big ploy?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure which is funnier, this comment or that somebody modded it informative.

Re:all part of the big ploy?

[19061969]

Aren't there supposed to be some lizards in there somewhere?

Re:all part of the big ploy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. From the 5th dimension. I've met people who sincerely believe all that... and more.

Re:all part of the big ploy?

[Anonymous Coward]

They got eaten by the Knights Templar.

About frickin' time!

[pla]

Aww, poor widdle ol' Israel doesn't like it when the world talks about human rights abuses other the atrocities of the holocaust?

Good for Google! Though, I hope Sergei has learned how to sleep with his eyes open... Scientists who stand in the way of Israel's goals have this nasty habit of attracting squads of well-equipped and tactically-trained muggers waiting for them in their hotel rooms.

Re:About frickin' time!

[KiloByte]

There's quite a lot of human rights abuses inside Israel's borders, yes. Hamas considers everyone else, including muslims who don't agree with it, to be sub-humans.

An organization that wants any other group wiped from the face of Earth deserves just that.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, quite contrary to that. The world goes to great lengths not to notice the daily war crimes perpetrated against Israeli civilians.
Or Syrians. Or Rwandans. When a favourite hobby (any, really, not just Israel-bashing) becomes an all-consuming obsession, it is time to see a doctor.
So, world, make an appointment. There are medications that can remedy the "dos darn juice shat in my pants" syndrome.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

So...the next time "Palestine" send rockets into Israel then, as blessed by the U.N., Israel would be more than justified turning it into a wasteland and simply annexing it like they did the Golan Heights and the Sinai Desert.

If you want to be one of the big boys, you have to play by their rules.

Re:About frickin' time!

[femtobyte]

An organization that wants any other group wiped from the face of Earth deserves just that.

I assume you're talking about the Israeli government? Or do they not count, because they actually are systematically wiping Palestine off the map, instead of just wanting it?

Re:About frickin' time!

[PPH]

Annex?

Don't you mean occupy? Or are you admitting that Israel is taking land by force?

I have no problem with Israel occupying Palestinian territories from which rockets are fired. They can do for as long as it takes for the attacks to stop as far as I am concerned. But its not their land to settle.

The Sinai was returned to Egypt as a condition of a peace treaty. And the Golan Heights will be returned to Syria based on the same.

Re:About frickin' time!

[mendax]

It is about time! And with respect to any Israelis or Jews who might be offended by Google's actions today. I have just one thing to say to you: fuck you.

Google is responding to the reality of the situation on the ground today. The Palestinians people lived in a place called in English Palestine by everyone else including the Jews until 1948 when Israel was created. While it is true that they and other Arab neighbors did cause some problems by deciding not to bow to the reality of the political situation then and agree with the two-state solution created by the UN back then and to fight the Jews who through the UN legally stole half of Palestine from the Palestinians the fact of the matter is that there is a nation that is bottled up within the borders of the current state of Israel that do not want to be a part of Israel and would like some of the land back that the Israelis stole from them in 1967 not so fair and square.

Israel as it currently exists as a Jewish state is doomed because of the unsustainable situation it is in. The writing has been on the wall for a long time now. The nation is quickly losing the moral capital the Holocaust granted it by tacitly creating ghettos for the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza, regularly depriving these people of commerce, jobs, food, water, and electricity, and then expecting that the people they victimize will simply put up with it. Google's actions today are just another nail in the coffin of the Jewish state.

Ok, ok, I'm getting off my soap box now.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Squiddie]

Individuals launching rockets is not the same as Israel as a whole committing those crimes. Also I don't remember the Palestinians using white phosphorus on civilians, do you?

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, quite contrary to that. The world goes to great lengths not to notice the daily war crimes perpetrated by Israeli military.

FTFY. You are quite welcome.

Re: About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Those evil sneaky Israelis shore are incompetent. For 60 years they have been wiping the Palestinians off the face of the earth and now there are 10 times as many Palestinians as when they started.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, quite contrary to that. The world goes to great lengths not to notice the daily war crimes perpetrated against Israeli civilians.

No, you're ignorant. The reality? The majority of the people make very little effort to not notice these war crimes. They're desensitized and are otherwise too busy to car about something that is far away and ambiguous at best. Learn how humans work before you start making sweeping assumptions.

Re:About frickin' time!

[cold fjord]

And the Golan Heights will be returned to Syria based on the same.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

Re:About frickin' time!

[KiloByte]

Israel as it currently exists as a Jewish state is doomed because of the unsustainable situation it is in.

Ie, a bunch of bloodthirsty Arabs? Sorry but the Israelis have so far defended themselves against any wars, including one waged by all their neighbours the very next day after Israel was formed. That their holy book says all infidels must convert or die doesn't give them any moral high ground.

Re:About frickin' time!

[femtobyte]

That their holy book says all infidels must convert or die doesn't give them any moral high ground.

That Israel ignores all the parts of their holy book demanding just treatment of foreigners (leaving only the parts about conquest and oppression and exclusion) nicely levels the moral playing field.

Re:About frickin' time!

[cold fjord]

If you think it is "individuals" launching rockets you have a seriously flawed understanding of the situation.

If you're outraged about the use of chemicals against "civilians," do you have any to spare?

Suicide Bombs Spread Rat Poison, Disease

Is a Palestinian Arab launching a rocket aimed at an Israeli town innocent?

Re:About frickin' time!

[Squiddie]

I do not see the PA or even Hamas advocating the launching or rockets lately. If there are such criminals, then they can be prosecuted. Demolishing hospitals is obviously not proportional response.

Re:About frickin' time!

[cold fjord]

I assume you're talking about the Israeli government?

No, that would be Hamas. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

Or do they not count, because they actually are systematically wiping Palestine off the map, instead of just wanting it?

There seems to be some defect in your understanding of genocide as the number of Palestinian Arabs has long been increasing. You also don't give credit where credit is due. The brother Arabs of the Palestinian Arabs told them to leave their homes and villages while they slaughtered the Jews in 1948. It didn't turn out that way, and now the other Arabs treat the Palestinian Arabs like scum.

Re:About frickin' time!

[ixuzus]

That's a very simplistic view. Consider the situation where militants enter an area they don't like - such as the Christian quarter, fire their rocket and go home. An Israeli military response, be it firing back or occupation, at the source of the rocket is pretty much a win-win for them. This is not a hypothetical situation. It happened repeatedly and probably will again.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

The U.N. recognizes the right of a nation who is victorious in war to annex the lands of the loser.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Drink deeply from the Kool Aid.

Ignorant fools such as yourself are primarily the ones responsible for wars as you ignore aggressors until it is too late. Chamberlain ring a bell?
 

Re:About frickin' time!

[cold fjord]

I do not see the PA or even Hamas advocating the launching or rockets lately.

There is a cease-fire at the moment that is barely holding. It can't last forever since one of Hamas's basic goals is to destroy Israel.

If there are such criminals, then they can be prosecuted.

Is there something you missed? You do realize that it isn't just criminal individuals that do this, or renegade members of Hamas, it is Hamas itself? They aren't going to prosecute themselves for fighting for their own goal. The only reason they might stop is they are either out of ammo or the Israelis have damaged them enough that they need a break. The closest they are going to get to prosecuting anyone is if on one of their needed breaks a rival group launches a few rockets before Hamas itself is ready to resume hostilities. Those individuals will be captured and punished, as much for being rivals of Hamas than for attacking Israel before Hamas is ready to do so itself.

The only real hope there is that Hamas continues in growing corrupt and wants uninterrupted economic activity to leach off from.

Demolishing hospitals is obviously not proportional response.

You don't get to use hospitals for rocket launch points and munitions warehouses. That is a violation of the Law of War, and Hamas engages in that sort of thing regularly.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Clsid]

I don't know why you guys defend one over the other. Both sides hate each other and have done outrageous things. It's like a fight between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

Re:About frickin' time!

[PPH]

Citation Needed.

Re:About frickin' time!

[approachingZero]

The people who are affectionately referred to as Palestinians came very close to having peace - "due to insistence for compromise by President Clinton, Barak offered Arafat a Palestinian state in 73% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian percentage of sovereignty would extend to 90% over a ten- to twenty-five-year period. Also included in the offer was the return of a small number of refugees and compensation for those not allowed to return. Palestinians would also have 'custodianship' over the Temple Mount, sovereignty on all Islamic and Christian holy sites, and 3/4 of Jerusalem's Old Quarters."

Arafat rejected Barak's offer, and he died a rich man while his followers wallowed in misery.

It was so close. But the reality is there is no way in hell the Muslims will ever agree to non Muslims existing anywhere they control unless the Jews and the Christians pay a hefty tax and submit to Sharia Law. Read the Qur'an.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

In the west the saying goes 'follow the money.' In the Islamic world you 'follow Mohammad', and he was a psychopath. I would like to think there was the possibility that Muslims could moderate, but if what you really believe is that anyone who doesn't submit to your laws should be killed then there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Christianity, you can leave Christianity and the penalty isn't squat. Christians don't hunt you down and kill you if you stop going to church, they just stop saying hi at Walmart.

Re: About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

He doesn't need to keep his eyes open, he has Google glass

Re:About frickin' time!

[Shadow of Eternity]

You need to read some history if that's what you think. Mark twain's trip is a particularly good account, the entire region was composed of malaria ridden swampland and ghost towns with the occasional temporary habitation by desert nomads. Multiple prominent leaders of the "palestinians" have admitted that the existence of any "palestinian" people is a complete and utter myth, invented solely as a political tool and populated by illegal immigrants from the surrounding arab nations. There are written accounts from governors who describe virtually their entire city's population sneaking into the british mandate to try and displace the jews.

Even the persona of "Yasser Arafat" of the PLO is a myth, a false name used by the nephew of the Grand Mufti Al-Husseini because (at the time) anyone who knew his real name would have immediately recognized that he was doing nothing other than continuing the goals of his uncle's closest political ally: http://i.imgur.com/NZ5DGwk.jpg?1

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Israeli government wanted the Palestinians wiped off the map, it would be completed in a few hours.

We wouldn't waste time letting our sons, daughters, wives, friends, and fellow soldiers get killed all these years.

-An actual Israeli

Re:About frickin' time!

[cold fjord]

Looks like we need to add more facts for the uninformed:

Hamas says still seeks Israel's destruction

(Reuters) - The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas rejected on Monday criticism by al Qaeda's second-in-command and said it was still committed to Israel's destruction despite a power-sharing deal with the Fatah faction.

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine," Hamas said in a statement, in a clear reference to Israel as well as to the occupied West Bank. . . more

Who Are the Real Nazis?

Re:About frickin' time!

[Uberbah]

No, that would be Hamas. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

And the Likud charter lays claim to the occupied territories and denies any Palestinian state. Funny how the Zionist apologists never talk about that. Or the inconvenient fact that Hamas was created by Israel to undermine Fatah.

There seems to be some defect in your understanding of genocide as the number of Palestinian Arabs has long been increasing.

There seems to be some willful obtuseness in your comment, as you're swapping out the elimination of a country with the elimination of a people.

If you're outraged about the use of chemicals against "civilians," do you have any to spare?

Depends, do you have any sense of proportion? How about when it's Israel violating the cease fire and then killing hundreds of Palestinians a la Cast Lead? How about the fact that even the IDF admits that the rockets are a psychological and not a military threat? Or the fact that an Israeli is more likely to be killed in a car accident with a bus - not car accidents overall but car accidents with buses - than by a Palestinian?

It can't last forever since one of Hamas's basic goals is to destroy Israel.

And who created Hamas again? And the Likud Charter, again?

Who Are the Real Nazis?

By the racist Jonah Goldberg? More like Who Are the Real Shitbags.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Uberbah]

While it is true that they and other Arab neighbors did cause some problems by deciding not to bow to the reality of the political situation then and agree with the two-state solution created by the UN back then

The "reality of the situation" is that the proposal was to give 56% of the land to 31% of the population. And of that 31%, the vast majority were just off the boat from Europe. Of course the natives rejected such a deal, you would too.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Uberbah]

Mark twain's trip is a particularly good account, the entire region was composed of malaria ridden swampland and ghost towns with the occasional temporary habitation by desert nomads. Multiple prominent leaders of the "palestinians" have admitted that the existence of any "palestinian" people is a complete and utter myth, invented solely as a political tool and populated by illegal immigrants from the surrounding arab nations.

Riiiight. And I bet you switch from that denial of Palestinian history to the "continuing presence" canard to justify Zionist land grabbing with a straight face, don't you? You know, the one that pretends that 5% of the population means that a bunch of immigrants can come in and take all the land within 50 years?

Re:About frickin' time!

[Shadow of Eternity]

If by continuing presence you mean the fact that the jews are the only group to maintain any significant and continuous permanent habitation of the region for the last three thousand years then yes that's also part of what I'd mention, although it's neither a "land grab" nor a canard.

Your arguments on the other hand fit that definition handily, and your reference to the specious "canaanite" canard in another comment is a pretty clear giveaway that you're just here to shill for these guys: http://i.imgur.com/fVa0Nxq.jpg

Re:About frickin' time!

[Uberbah]

If by continuing presence you mean the fact that the jews are the only group to maintain any significant and continuous permanent habitation of the region for the last three thousand years then yes that's also part of what I'd mention, although it's neither a "land grab" nor a canard.

So yes, you will brazenly engage in hypocrisy with a straight face.

Your arguments on the other hand fit that definition handily, and your reference to the specious "canaanite" canard in another comment is a pretty clear giveaway that you're just here to shill for these guys: http://i.imgur.com/fVa0Nxq.jpg

Awww, did someone get butthurt that another canard went up in flames, so you had to try and project your racist shitbaggery onto someone else? Has that ever worked for you in the past? In any case, say hi to Francisco Pizarro and Bull Connor on your way into hell.

Re:About frickin' time!

[amorsen]

The "reality of the situation" is that the proposal was to give 56% of the land to 31% of the population.

56% does not really tell the whole story either. It is not the American Mid-West, where one plot of land is just about as good as any other plot of land (and now I'll probably get someone from the Mid-West telling me it isn't like that there either. Sorry.)

The 56% awarded to Israel is better land than the 44% given to the Palestinian reservations, and that divide has only increased as Israel has occupied more land.

Re:About frickin' time!

[cold fjord]

Or the inconvenient fact that Hamas was created by Israel to undermine Fatah.

I think you'll find the truly inconvenient fact to be that your claim is wrong, a misreading of the facts. The facts are more subtle, and it is more a study in the law of unintended consequences. And please don't bother throwing this back at me from the article below since it will show you apparently either didn't read the article, comprehend the article, or both: ""Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. " That sentence from the article is more hyperbole than fact.

This is more informative:

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

"When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early '90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."

Israeli officials who served in Gaza disagree on how much their own actions may have contributed to the rise of Hamas. They blame the group's recent ascent on outsiders, primarily Iran. This view is shared by the Israeli government. "Hamas in Gaza was built by Iran as a foundation for power, and is backed through funding, through training and through the provision of advanced weapons," Mr. Olmert said last Saturday. Hamas has denied receiving military assistance from Iran.

Arieh Spitzen, the former head of the Israeli military's Department of Palestinian Affairs, says that even if Israel had tried to stop the Islamists sooner, he doubts it could have done much to curb political Islam, a movement that was spreading across the Muslim world. He says attempts to stop it are akin to trying to change the internal rhythms of nature: "It is like saying: 'I will kill all the mosquitoes.' But then you get even worse insects that will kill you...You break the balance. You kill Hamas you might get al Qaeda."

--------

And the Likud charter lays claim to the occupied territories and denies any Palestinian state. Funny how the Zionist apologists never talk about that.

I take it then that you must be truly baffled by the fact that successive Likud Prime Ministers have ceded territory to the Palestinians, including withdrawing from Gaza? How is that possible if the charter is as you say? Perhaps there are subtleties to Israeli politics unaccounted for by the claims you post? Will you be including notice of the Likud concessions of territory in future posts about the Likud charter?

Likud

The third Likud premier was Benjamin Netanyahu, elected in May 1996, . . .

In 1998, Netanyahu reluctantly agreed to cede territory in the Wye River Memorandum. . . .

. . . early elections for Prime Minister were called for March 2001. Surprisingly, Netanyahu declined to be the Likud candidate for Prime Minister, meaning that the fourth Likud premier would be Ariel Sharon. Sharon, unlike past Likud leaders, had been raised in a Labour Zionist environment and had long been seen as something of a maverick. In the face of the Second Intifada, Sharon pursued a varied set of policies, many of which were controversial even within the Likud. T

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Silly yob. Jonah Goldberg is a Shitbag?

Not the Boston Marathon bombers?
Not the 7/7/05 London bombers?
Not the Pan Am 103 bombers?
Not the '72 Olympics terrorists?
Not your boys who have killed 70,000 in Syria?
Not the assassin of US Senator Robert F. Kennedy?
Not the people who stone women to death over "family honor" issues?

Get back to your bunker.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

The nation is quickly losing the moral capital the Holocaust granted it by tacitly creating ghettos for the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza, regularly depriving these people of commerce, jobs, food, water, and electricity, and then expecting that the people they victimize will simply put up with it.

Your argument is silly because one one hand these people are asking to be an independent state. Well then. Why is it Israel's job to supply them with things like jobs, food, water, and electricity? Is it the job of the US to supply Mexico with power and water? What about Panama supplying Norway. It makes no sense. These are independent states.

Now -- pretend a neighboring state lobs missels at you periodically. Would you really go out of your way to make sure they have a comfortable life? Forming a state is not done by terror. Maybe instead of launching rockets they could instead build power stations, sewage processing facilities, desalination plants, and other things for their own citizens.

The great thing about the Internet is that everybody can now talk about things upon which they are completely uninformed. Including the media.

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Riight...

Because a protestant american freemason alcoholic is totally a good judge of historical accuracy,
particularly in the levant.

Don't like what you see? Just defame it and make stuff up in the name of Enlightenment Progressivism!

Re:About frickin' time!

[PPH]

Fine. But how does moving Jewish settlers into the land help out with that scenario?

Re:About frickin' time!

[Shadow of Eternity]

Actually that would be you that's engaging in bald faced lying and hypocrisy with at this point a blatantly obvious troll face. I mean you don't get much more openly absurd than calling historical documentation of the Grand Mufti's alliance with Hitler, and his Nephew's continuation of their shared goal under the false name Yasser Arafat "racist shitbaggery".

Re:About frickin' time!

[Anonymous Coward]

What "Palestinian History"?
The whole idea of an Arab Palestine state was created in response to Zionism. Before that the area was part of the Syrian region of the (Turkish) Ottoman empire. There was no "Palestinian" Arab identity.

in line with typical Google policy

[Trepidity]

Google typically defers to self-identification, even where names or status are disputed. For example, google.mk is taglined "Google Macedonia", not "Google FYROM".

Re:in line with typical Google policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why is "Falkland Islands" (known by the people who live there) labelled on the map as "Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)" ?

Re:in line with typical Google policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps not the best example. The former Yugoslavians are abusing self-identification to bizarrely turn from Slavs into descendents of ancient Macedonian.

Re:in line with typical Google policy

[Trepidity]

Their map policy seems to be different. On the map, "Palestine" isn't labeled as a country. Instead, "Israel" is the only country in the area with a name typeset in the font used for country names. The Palestinian territories are labeled "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip" in a smaller font indicating a sub-national division.

Re:in line with typical Google policy

[Chris Mattern]

According to Wikipedia, Macedonia's population is over 64% Macedonian. Almost all of the rest is Albanian (who aren't Slavs either). Less than 3% of Macedonia's population is Slav.

All hail the new world government

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly blood will be shed over this stupid and in a perfect world, meaningless, decision.
The UN has weaseled out of a difficult situation (which initially it was created to solve) by applying a tag "non-member observer state", which in plain English means "you are not a state, because making you a state is explicitly forbidden by our basic laws, but it sounds close enough, here is your medal that says 'Hero' on it".
Now google jumps the bandwagon.

Re:All hail the new world government

[PPH]

The UN is saving its energy for the vi/emacs dispute.

And There Was Much Rejoicing!

[Greyfox]

To celebrate, I'm going to stand in this bucket and sing "Jerusalem!"

And did those feet, in ancient times, walk upon England's mountains green? Everyone now!

Wilderness area

[Anonymous Coward]

Designate Israel and whatever you want to call that other stuff a wilderness area. I'd like to see God do that Himself with some kind of massive shield volcano eruption. It'd shut up several really annoying bunches of people: Palestinian advocates, global warming people, and Zionism's supporters. They ALL belong on the B-ark. Come on God, where's my volcano?

Re:Wilderness area

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but that ain't gonna happen..,. If you have a sheepskin, why is it that you dare invoke the transcendent? You know well that it is not tolerated in a forum populated by those whose view of reality is nothing less, more and other than space, time, matter, energy and chance?

Good

[l0ungeb0y]

I was so pleased when the UN finally told the US and Israel what they thought of the nice little Ghetto Israel had created for the Palestinians to slowly be eradicated in.

Frankly, I agree with Sir Gerald Kaufman of the UK in his views that Israel is no better than certain German Fascists in their treatment of the Palestinians.

“The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians,” Sir Gerald Kaufman, a veteran MP of the governing Labour Party and a long-time critic of Israel, said Thursday in parliament.

And before some butt-hurt heeb starts pulling out his "you disagree with Israel, you therefor are an anti-semite" card...
Sir Gerald Kaufman is himself a Jew.

I hope that someday more land can be given to Palestine and both sides can learn to live in peace -- but considering this dispute seems driven by ultra-conservative religious wing-nuts on all sides, I don't think that will happen without total annihilation of the region.

Re:Good

[PPH]

Mod parent up and let the bullets fly.

Re:Good

[skdffff]

And before some butt-hurt heeb starts pulling out his "you disagree with Israel, you therefor are an anti-semite" card...
Sir Gerald Kaufman is himself a Jew.

There are three kinds of people - jews, anti-semites and jewish anti-semites.

Re:Good

[digitig]

The "Self-Hating Jew" myth is just a version of the No True Scotsman fallacy, weasel words to try to avoid the truth that Jewish != Zionist and to try to exclude anybody who disagrees with you from the discussion.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

No true Scotsman ever mentions a logical fallacy he does not understand.

Re:Good

[Yakasha]

Frankly, I agree with Sir Gerald Kaufman of the UK in his views that Israel is no better than certain German Fascists in their treatment of the Palestinians.

I don't recall German Jews ever stating they wanted to march every German into the Rhine (Ya, I know that quote doesn't come from a Palestinian, but the sentiment does and it predates the formation of Israel), so I really don't see how the comparison is valid.

“The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians,

Actually their most commonly cited reason for "murdering the Palestinians" is something along the lines of "INCOMING ROCKET!" I really don't ever hear the Holocaust being brought up except to compare Israeli Jews to the Nazis.

And before some butt-hurt heeb starts pulling out his "you disagree with Israel, you therefor are an anti-semite" card... Sir Gerald Kaufman is himself a Jew.

Uncle Tom doesn't care what race you are.

I hope that someday more land can be given to Palestine and both sides can learn to live in peace -- but considering this dispute seems driven by ultra-conservative religious wing-nuts on all sides, I don't think that will happen without total annihilation of the region.

The Palestinians have been rejecting a two-state solution for more than 80 years. So you're probably right on the mutual annihilation...

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

can I be any more anti-semite than certain sections of Israels poulations stance on Palestinians?

Re:Good

[phantomfive]

before some butt-hurt heeb starts pulling out his "you disagree with Israel, you therefor are an anti-semite" card...

It would really lend to your credibility if you recognized at all the the Palestinians want to completely destroy Israel. As it is, you seem pretty one sided in your view.

Re:Good

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

And before some butt-hurt heeb starts pulling out his "you disagree with Israel, you therefor are an anti-semite" card...
Sir Gerald Kaufman is himself a Jew.

He may be a jew but that doesn't stop anti-semites like yourself from using his words for your own purposes. If you don't want to be accused of being an anti-semite, don't use racial slurs like "heeb."

Bigots like you aren't doing the Palestinians any favors when you use their terrible situation as a tool for your own passive-aggressive racism.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, I agree with Sir Gerald Kaufman of the UK in his views that Israel is no better than certain German Fascists in their treatment of the Palestinians.

A more apt comparison would be with Apartheid South Africa. And since Israel doesn't want a viable Palestinian state, what will happen is exactly what happened with South Africa and their little Apartheid. I don't believe Israeli extremists would try the madness of "Final Solution", though when you ask them, they actually talk about it!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_(Settlements).png

That's NOT a state! And annexation of land hasn't happened and will not happen without agreement of the population.

I believe the extremists in Israel are no different then extremists in Hamas. And when Sharon "saw the light" and tried a real, lasting solution, the extremists killed him.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

The trouble is, though, that your assertion isn't actually true at all, isn't it?

Re:Good

[Uberbah]

It would really lend to your credibility if you recognized at all the the Palestinians want to completely destroy Israel.

Tautology with no basis in reality. But even if it were true, that's batshit irrelevant to Palestinian right to self-determination, and their right to all of the land seized in the 1967 war started by Israel.

As it is, you seem pretty one sided in your view.

As it is, I find your lack of self-awareness disturbing.

Re:Good

[DigiShaman]

The Palestinians would get more respect if it wasn't for the fact they launch rockets indiscriminately at Israelis. Taken to the extreme, it's like watching a war between Al Qaeda and the Nazi's (or like). Do we really want to be picking sides here? They both lie.

Re:Good

[Uberbah]

Actually their most commonly cited reason for "murdering the Palestinians" is something along the lines of "INCOMING ROCKET!"

You mean this rocket right here? And the excuse for Israel violating ceasefires and killing hundreds of Palestinians a la Cast Lead?

More problems for tired Zionist apologia: Israel's justification for starting the 1967 war was the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran, one of many trade routes to Israel. But that means that Palestinian attacks in response to the total blockade of Gaza are perfectly justified by Israeli rules.

The Palestinians have been rejecting a two-state solution for more than 80 years.

Repeating a big lie doesn't make it true, it just makes you a bigger liar. The Palestinians are entitled to all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, but they've been willing to make concessions on that in order to get a state of their own. But Israel keeps making more and more draconian demands, or pulls out of negotiations.

Because Israel isn't interested in peace. It's interested in land, and waiting out the clock until it becomes a matter of taking land from someone's great-great grandchild to give to someone else's great-great grandchild.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

That is hitting the nail on its head.

The children of holocaust victims are those who hate the Israeli government the most.

(But never forget that most people down there, no matter what "side" they happen to be born on, are good and kind but just maybe a bit brainwashed people. Never ever forget that.)

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Palestinians? Probably not. The prominent Palestinian political parties? Pretty much - Fatah//Hamas are both committed to the destruction of Israel.

Re:Good

[argStyopa]

It's too bad that the Palestinian Arabs rejected the original partition agreement that the British mandate tried to mediate - it was a 2 state solution. However, they rejected the talks in favor of genocidal murder for decades (because they thought they could win).

After 70 years of getting their asses kicked repeatedly, NOW they want a 2-state solution.

How convenient!

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Jewish != Zionist

Any self-respecting Jew has probably tried on the "not a Zionist" shoes at one point or another. It's tempting. After all, we're comfortable in a lot of places, especially the USA. Wouldn't it be nice to just forget about those other Jews who chose to live in a bad neighborhood?

There are problems with that. While you, the Jew, might be willing to make distinctions between Zionist and non-Zionist, the true anti-semite will not. To the true anti-semite, all Jews are Jews and must be exterminated or at the very least controlled. This is born out through all of history--whenver the Jews had no state, they were at the mercy of those who reigned, and it wasn't very merciful.

After spending a few minutes in "not a Zionist" bliss, you realize that you can't "scrub the Jew off" any more than Blacks could scrub their dark skin off. In fact, growing up in the USA I used to think, "I'm glad I'm not Black. I'd have to think about race all the time".

Little did I know, the post-war attitude towards Jews in the USA was an anomaly. I look around me here in the SF Bay Area, an it's like anti-Semitism is almost fashionable among the left. It doesn't matter if I'm not over in Israel doing this or that, or if I agree with Israel or not. If we let Israel collapse, people who bear the same heritage as I are back in the shit. I might be back in the shit too. I'm Jewish and I can't do anything about it.

FWIW, a two-state solution has to emerge at some point... but initially it'll be two states at war. I think our best next step is something like East/West Germany, with a road from Gaza to the West bank, just like there was an autobahn through the GDR to West Berlin. Once they get used to that for a few generations, and trade like that, then maybe, just maybe they can be persuaded to have a state with full respect for religious freedom like the USA. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime.

Re:Good

[Shadow of Eternity]

Article 17 of the Hamas charter: "The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)."

PLO leader "Yasser Arafat's" uncle sitting with their closest political ally, discussing a mutual goal: http://i.imgur.com/NZ5DGwk.jpg?1

This is without even getting into the non-existance of the "palestinian" people, a fact admitted by multiple prominent palestinian leaders. Try a little google yourself, read about Mark Twain's account of his trip to the region, the british saying the land was so uninhabited it needed people to survive, even the ottoman census.

Re:Good

[phantomfive]

. But even if it were true, that's batshit irrelevant to Palestinian right to self-determination,

I'm not going to call you dumb, but the fact is, they will never have self-determination as long as they use it to attack Israel. They're too small; they'll lose, unfair or not.

Re:Good

[Mystakaphoros]

before some butt-hurt heeb

Or just that "butt-hurt heeb" is not usually the marker of a rational debate.

Re:Good

[phantomfive]

True, I shouldn't have even tried to talk to the guy.

Re:Good

[fustakrakich]

The Palestinians would get more respect if it wasn't for the fact they launch rockets indiscriminately at Israelis.

Gee, if only someone would sell them some decent guidance equipment...

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

This is commonly quoted mis-information. The only peoples actually pushed into the sea there were in fact Palestinians.

Re:Good

[amorsen]

It's too bad that the Palestinian Arabs rejected the original partition agreement that the British mandate tried to mediate

a) I'll just quote Uberbah: "The "reality of the situation" is that the proposal was to give 56% of the land to 31% of the population. And of that 31%, the vast majority were just off the boat from Europe. Of course the natives rejected such a deal, you would too."
b) Why would the Palestinians trust such a deal? What guarantee was there that it would not just happen again, with 56% of the remaining 31%? And again?

They did the only honourable thing and assembled an international coalition force to kick out the invaders. Alas, they failed.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Lord Haw Haw was a Brit.

The 7/7/05 bombers were Brits.

Gerald Kaufman is a Brit.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

No True Scotsman would release the convicted bomber of Pan Am 103 on "compassionate" grounds - Blood for Libyan Oil contracts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

Re:Good

[deimtee]

Splitters!

Re:Good

[drinkypoo]

Wouldn't it be nice to just forget about those other Jews who chose to live in a bad neighborhood?

How far do you plan to rewind the clock? We're talking about people who got kicked out of a region and then were forcibly reinstalled into it. How are you going to calm that situation down?

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

The Palestinians would get more respect if it wasn't for the fact they launch rockets indiscriminately at Israelis.

Gee, if only someone would sell them some decent guidance equipment...

Yeah, it is odd that the people who provide these rockets don't provide more accurate devices. It's almost as if they want to fuel the fighting without actually wanting the Palestinians to win...

Re:Good

[fustakrakich]

...the people who provide these rockets...

are also providing their spacesuits

Re:Good

[Lew-the-nerd]

Most of the land was already given to the Palestinians in the form of Jordan.
And a large part what was left that was ceded to the Jews was the Negev desert.

Re:Good

[u38cg]

Actually, Israel has a serious problem, and they need to come to an accommodation sooner rather than later. The problem is, they can't manage their internal disputes to achieve significant action.

The problem is that the Palestinians have a significantly higher birth rate and Jews will effectively be a minority in the not-too-distant future. At that point, they lose democratic legitimacy, so they need to come up with a satisfactory settlement before that happens.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

...and that sounds like an "Arab" solution: genocide is preferable to negotiation.

Re:Good

[Yakasha]

You mean this rocket right here?

No, I mean the ones the anti-semitic organization Hamas, who the Palestinians elected to run their government, continually fire at innocent Jewish families. The ones you never have to live through. The ones you so easily make light of and excuse. The fact that Israel has better technology doesn't make the people firing those rockets any less evil.

More problems for tired Zionist apologia: Israel's justification for starting the 1967 war was the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran

I haven't apologized for anything. I merely point out facts that both sides, mostly anti-semitics, like to ignore.

But that means that Palestinian attacks in response to the total blockade of Gaza are perfectly justified by Israeli rules.

Sure kid. And its perfectly justified if Manson gets out and murders some more because we were evil enough to put him in prison. You're a typical anti-semite refusing to acknowledge that you would yourself would never live with the shennanigans the Palestinians are pulling and would probably respond in the same way.

The Palestinians are entitled to all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, but they've been willing to make concessions on that in order to get a state of their own.

Of course they do. As soon as Jordan gave up their own claim to the land it should go to some randomly chosen 3rd party that promises to kick out and/or murder some portion of the population. And the Jews that have been living there for the last 2000 years, or those that came at the invite of the Ottoman Emperor be damned, right? Just like the ones that were murdered or expelled from Gaza in 1929.

But Israel keeps making more and more draconian demands, or pulls out of negotiations.

They both have at various points.

Because Israel isn't interested in peace.

I'm sorry, who isn't interested in peace? Have you even read the Hamas charter?

It's interested in land, and waiting out the clock until it becomes a matter of taking land from someone's great-great grandchild to give to someone else's great-great grandchild.

Probably. But until the rockets stop, I don't give a fuck. You don't target children. Ever.

Re:Religion.

[shutdown -p now]

What, give both parties nukes and let them hash it out once and for all?

Ohio now Miami Indian Territory on Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

Since native American Indians have prior claim to the land, Google and the UN have decided to start renaming US states to their appropriate Indian territories on Google maps.

Yawn

[Anonymous Coward]

As an Israeli, all I can say is:

    * It's about time.
    * Don't worry about the yelling from certain Israeli politicians. They look just as dumb to most Israelis as they do to the rest of the world.

Re:Yawn

[Mystakaphoros]

It's been kind of fun recently watching Yair Lapid tear into some of them in the Knesset.

DNA tests

[darth_borehd]

DNA has shown that Israelis and Palestinians are the same people. Either they both have an ancestral claim to the land or neither one does.

Re:DNA tests

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets see if your argument passes the substitution test...
DNA tests confirm that Chinese and Africans are both the same people. Either they both have an ancestral claim to the land or neither one does.

Really? So they both have claim to China, or was that Africa?
They both are human and originated if you go back far enough from the same people. Oh you say their blood lines diverged at some point in history and now they claim different lands. So the key point is at what point their blood lines diverged?

Trying to explain the state of the world's borders or its history in terms of ancestry seem to me a project doomed to internal contradiction through incoherence.

War... war makes a much better candidate for explaining to world's territories.
As far as I can tell, the vast majority of territorial lines and resolutions and all important ones have been the result of wars. In the case of modern Israle's initial borders this was WW2 where the Ottoman Empire sided with the loosing side of Hitler's Axis powers. The current expansion being the result of the 6 days war where Israel's neighbors coordinated an attack on Israel and lost.

Re:DNA tests

[Pseudonym Authority]

Lets see if your argument passes the substitution test...
DNA tests confirm that Chinese and Africans are both the same people. Either they both have an ancestral claim to the land or neither one does.

This just might be the least intelligent comment of all time! That's it, game's over; we can stop acting dumb now, the prize has been taken.

Re:DNA tests

[darth_borehd]

Perhaps I should have qualified this by stating that Israelis are more genetically related to Palestinians than to Jews living in other countries while Palestinians are more related to Israelis than to Arabs in other countries.

In other words, they are genetically the same people.

Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[plastick]

Select results from a new Pew survey of Muslims worldwide show that Palestinian Muslims are among the most "religiously conservative" and intolerant of all Muslim-majority countries.

Many of the questions showed that Palestinian Muslims rated behind only Afghanistan, Iraq and sometimes a handful of others in their levels of fanaticism.

Here are some of the survey questions with how Palestinian Muslims answered:

Please tell me if you completely agree, mostly agree, mostly disagree, or completely disagree with this statement: Members of your religion have a duty to try and convert others to your religious faith.
"Completely" or "mostly" agree 82%

Some people think that if a man engages in premarital sex or adultery it is justified for family members to end his life in order to protect the family honor. Do you personally feel that this practice is:
Often or sometimes justified: 33%

Some people think that if a woman engages in premarital sex or adultery it is justified for family members to end her life in order to protect the family honor. Do you personally feel that this practice is:
Often or sometimes justified: 37%

Which comes closer to your views? "Islam is the one true faith leading to eternal life in heaven" or "Many religions can lead to eternal life in heaven"?
Statement #1 89%

"Women should have the right to decide if they wear a veil" 53%
"Women should not have the right to decide whether to wear a veil" 35%

"Sharia law is the revealed word of God" 75%
"Sharia law is developed by men, based on the word of God" 16%

"Sharia law should be open to multiple interpretations" 42%
"There is only one, true understanding of sharia law?" 51%

Do you ever participate in inter-faith religious groups, classes, or meetings with Christians or not?
Yes 8% No 91%

"A wife should have the right to divorce her husband" 33%
"A wife should not have the right to divorce her husband" 57%

Agree or disagree? "A wife must always obey her husband"
87% "completely" or "mostly" agree (46%, 41%)

"Do you favor or oppose making sharia law, or Islamic law, the official law of the land in our country?"
89% favor 8% oppose

For those who answered "favor" - should Sharia apply to non-Muslims?
39% yes 43% Muslims only

"Who should have a greater right to parents’ inheritance – sons or daughters, or should both have equal rights?"
Sons 51% Daughter 1% Equal 43%

Is polygamy morally acceptable?
Yes - 48% No - 20% Not a moral issue - 17%

Is drinking alcohol morally acceptable?
Yes - 1% No - 92%

Is homosexual behavior morally acceptable?
Yes - 1% No - 89% Not a moral issue - 5%

Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies... Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is:
Often or somewhat justified 40% Rarely or never justified 49% (highest percentages justifying suicide attacks of all countries surveyed)

Do you favor or oppose the following: the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion?
Favor - 62% Oppose - 29%

Do you favor or oppose the following: punishments like whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery?
Favor - 72% Oppose - 23% (behind only Pakistan, Afghanistan and Niger)

Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning people who commit adultery?
Favor - 81% Oppose - 14% (behind only Pakistan and Afghanistan)

Those who claim that a Palestinian Arab state would be secular and democratic state are fooling themselves.

Those who pretend that a "one state solution" would respect the rights of a Jewish minority are knowingly lying - especially since such a deal would cut Israel in half where the middle would be only 6 miles wide. Furthermore, never in history has there ever been a single Jewish suicide bomber. I

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

JIDF pls go

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

Two counterpoints:

#1: Poor people are usually religiously backward. Israel has kept Palestine poor. If Palestinians were free to trade, and grew wealthier, they might become a bit more progressive.

#2: Even if Palestinians are backward hicks, that doesn't justify Israel's treatment of them. A Palestinian state may not be an ideal solution, if it has a high chance of turning into a theocracy, but is there any other way of preventing Israel from further mistreating them?

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

Furthermore, never in history has there ever been a single Jewish suicide bomber.

In what twisted reality is it a badge of honor that Israel only uses explosives at no risk to their operators? Israel is perfectly okay with killing innocent civilians, so there's not much to distinguish it besides it showing less resolve/desperation on their part.

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[alexkaskasoli]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics" - Mark Twain

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

Then the most extreme expression of fanaticism would be Israel occupying and removing people from their homes solely based on the theory that that particular land is given to the israeils by their god(s). Right?

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Pseudonym Authority]

Yup, having cruel, warmongering neighbors who like to murder children and indiscriminately level the shanty-infested `cities' tend to make people a bit resentful. That applies to both sides of this conflict.


Also, do you keep this kopipe in a text file to post quickly? Also, are you in that JIDF program where they pay people to shitpost on websites with pro-Israel propoganda? I'm not accusing you, It's just the feeling that I'm getting.

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Velex]

Am I supposed to believe that these poll results distinguish Palestine or Muslims from the rest of humanity negatively somehow?

Let me tell you, being transgendered, from over here all the Abrahamaic religions look pretty much the same and pretty much all equally morally bankrupt. Those survey results don't look much different from what I'd expect one would obtain by interviewing local Christians around here. Including things you've identified to attempt to make Islam look regressive by way of being misogynist. Christians around here believe the same things, although they have different clothing than hajibs they believe superstitious things about.

Misogyny runs rampant in Abrahamaic religions. Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam just have different ways of expressing it. At least the one thing all three can agree on is that, drawing from the ancient Greek myth, that it must be a woman who's responsible for all the evils of the world.

Guess what. Most of the world, at different times, has been ruled by different people. What do you think the native inhabitants of this continent [The Americas] might think about their Christian conquerors? At least, the ones that are left to speak.

I'm going to get modded flamebait for this, but I honestly believe it, and I've got the karma to burn. Israel couldn't have done better to take plays out of feminism's playbook. They're always history's perpetual victims. They're always morally perfect. It's all completely bullshit. It's a passive-aggressive appeal to white, male, and German guilt.

Israel has no right to exist. Yes, what happened during the holocaust was terrible, but the answer to evil isn't more evil.

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of the questions showed that Palestinian Muslims rated behind only Afghanistan, Iraq and sometimes a handful of others in their levels of fanaticism.

Do you think it's a coincidence that all 3 of the countries you've listed are countries that have been fucked the hardest by more powerful countries? So, when someone invades their land, people get mad at them and become radicalized? Boy, what a fucking shock.

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor people are usually religiously backward. Israel has kept Palestine poor.

If only there were some sympathetic countries nearby with a lot of oil wealth who could help the Palestinians out of poverty...

If Palestinians were free to trade, and grew wealthier, they might become a bit more progressive.

If only there was a nearby country where they could find work to help them out of poverty...

The truth is that the Arab nations dislike the Palestinians and it serves their purposes to have them in poverty. It is also true that the Palestinians were better off when they could work in Israel, before Arraft declared an intefada and sent in the suicide bombers.

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

JIDF member detected. Burn his hook nose and silly small cut penis.

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Hatta]

Select results from a new Pew survey of Muslims worldwide show that Palestinian Muslims are among the most "religiously conservative" and intolerant of all Muslim-majority countries.

Given their experiences with western democracies, I can hardly blame them. The right way to get these people to open up is to show them the benefits of democracy.

Those who pretend that a "one state solution" would respect the rights of a Jewish minority are knowingly lying

This is what constitutional guarantees are for.

Furthermore, never in history has there ever been a single Jewish suicide bomber.

They don't need suicide bombers. The state of Israel is more than willing to do the killing itself.

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel is perfectly okay with killing innocent civilians

Israel does not target civilians and regularly apologises when innocent civilians are killed.

Palestinian terrorists deliberately target civilians and are proud to do so.

In what twisted reality is it a badge of honour to walk into a room full of civilians and blow yourself up?

Re:Violence and Palestinians Muslims

[Anonymous Coward]

Those survey results don't look much different from what I'd expect one would obtain by interviewing local Christians around here.

I am genuinely interested to know if you really live in a place where 48% of Christians think polygamy is acceptable, 92% of Christians are against alcohol and 1/3 of Christians think that they should murder a family member if they commit adultery.

Screw the Israelis

[msobkow]

As far as I'm concerned, Israel is one of the most belligerent and violently oppressive regimes on the planet. I couldn't give two squirts of piss if they're "upset" about Palestine being properly named.

Re:Screw the Israelis

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess if someone attacks you for just existing you just might have a change of heart.

Re:Screw the Israelis

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess if someone attacks you for just existing you just might have a change of heart.

Sorry, but you have to be more clear. Are you talking about Palestinians or the Jews?

Abuse victims grow with great predictability into abusers.

Psychology works on both the micro and the macro scale. And it's not acceptable on either end, not a forgivable excuse for brutalizing anybody or any nation.

Israel is all grown up today and sadly, hasn't done the work necessary to heal, but has instead become a villain state, pouring out abuse on a powerless people, and just like sick abusive parents who attack their own children, they whine and complain about their own sorry experiences, blaming their victims for the very crimes they themselves commit.

It's textbook.

Mark Twain Quotes

[Anonymous Coward]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics"
- Mark Twain

"Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion."

"Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven....The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste."

I'd wager he would agree with those statistics.

but frank doesn't play dice with the universe

[Anonymous Coward]

ya god told me his name was frank....

Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Uberbah]

Did you miss the news that it took the Israeli Supreme Court to (finally) protect female Jews from being harassed or arrested at the Western Wall by the Ultra Orthodox? How about opinion surveys of Americans on how it's acceptable to drone bomb the shit out of other countries?

Beam, motes. And if you want to bitch about the problems of fundamentalist islam, start with the nearest mirror, as it's usually:

1) In response to western imperialism. Yeah, you're pissed about the 911 attacks that killed 3,000. They're kinda pissed about American sanctions that killed 500,000 children in Iraq. And your overthrowing their secular democracy in Iran to be replaced by a brutal dictatorship from the Shah.

2) Financed by client states like Saudi Arabia. You know, where the hijackers were from, but was never on our blow-shit-up list. Huh.

3) Financed and supported by the CIA. The Mujahideen in Afghanistan, rebels in Libya and now Syria, and MEK in Iraq. Then there was that triffle of "buying" the services of young boys in Afghanistan to be raped by tribal warlords.

It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception â" one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.

Bullshit. The entirety of Israel is built on land stolen from the native population. First in 1948, when a bunch of immigrants from Europe decided they had a greater claim than those who had lived there for thousands of years. And then in 1967, when they started a war of territory expansion yet claimed to be the victims.

ALL of the occupied territories ALL of the settlements and ALL of East Jerusalem are illegal.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

1967 was an offensive war? YOU ARE DELUDED. Israel was attacked in 1948-so self defense is wrong in your eyes?

1. Your 500K children killed is a myth. How many Kurds did Saddam use mustard gas on? (Hint:>500K)
2. Wow, politicians on both sides can be bought! Stop the presses!
3. Yes, everyone else is innocent in the world except the CIA. They are the sole source of evil in the world, correct?

Sorry, not drinking your mental flavor-aid.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Velex]

Mod parent up. That is all.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Shadow of Eternity]

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Hatta]

What exactly is that supposed to prove? The palestinian people are real, they exist in space time, and they are suffering at the hand of Israel. They deserve political self-determination. Either give them their own state, or make them citizens of Israel. What is happening now is an atrocity, no matter what the historical status of palestine is.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Jordan is "palestine". 60% of the population identify as "palestinian", as does the Queen of Jordan.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Anonymous Coward]

How was this rambling silliness marked as informative?

And if you want to bitch about the problems of fundamentalist islam, start with the nearest mirror, as it's usually:

1) In response to western imperialism. Yeah, you're pissed about the 911 attacks that killed 3,000. They're kinda pissed about American sanctions that killed 500,000 children in Iraq. And your overthrowing their secular democracy in Iran to be replaced by a brutal dictatorship from the Shah.

Fundamentalists in Iran and Iraq don't share the same issues. Your lumping Shia and Sunni, as well Arabs, Kurds, and Persians into one monolithic group indicates that you haven't looked at these problems with anything resembling critical thought.

Your example of Iran doesn't even make sense. Fundamentalists in Iran have plainly demonstrated that they were no fans of the Shah nor of secular democracy. Their leftists allies in the late 70s revolution were soon driven out or imprisoned once the revolution was over.

Also, for someone who keeps abusing wikipedia statistics of Jews in Palestine, you are extremely credulous of this 1/2 million child death estimate that is based on bad math. (See: Baram, Amatzia (Spring 2000). "The Effect of Iraqi Sanctions: Statistical Pitfalls and Responsibility" 54 (2). The Middle East Journal.)

2) Financed by client states like Saudi Arabia. You know, where the hijackers were from, but was never on our blow-shit-up list. Huh.

Don't let realpolitik get in the way of your vaguely ideological points.

3) Financed and supported by the CIA. The Mujahideen in Afghanistan, rebels in Libya and now Syria, and MEK in Iraq. Then there was that triffle of "buying" the services of young boys in Afghanistan to be raped by tribal warlords.

The antidote to rambling is coherence. You should take it.

The entirety of Israel is built on land stolen from the native population. First in 1948, when a bunch of immigrants from Europe decided they had a greater claim than those who had lived there for thousands of years. And then in 1967, when they started a war of territory expansion yet claimed to be the victims.

ALL of the occupied territories ALL of the settlements and ALL of East Jerusalem are illegal.

In your other posts you said that 10% of the population was Jewish. Now you say that the entirety of Israel is stolen. So, do you have actual evidence that the every single member of the pre-Israel Jewish population were renters or is logical consistency simply not in the cards for you? Or maybe only one Palestinian Jew owned a piece of land, and all the rest were standing on his shoulders like acrobats?

Also, since you don't seem to like people coming in and taking over things, will you be willing to tell the Palestinians that the Jews were on the Temple Mount first or are you picky about which occupations you support?

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Shadow of Eternity]

It proves exactly the opposite of what you said, that the palestinian people are NOT real, they do not exist, the entire claimed existence of such a people is openly admitted to be a political tool. Which is why the surrounding arab states do everything in their power to keep the "palestinians" in such poor conditions.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Hatta]

What exactly are you talking about? There are real human beings there. Who do you think keeps firing rockets?

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Shadow of Eternity]

Try actually reading the GGP.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Hatta]

I have. It makes no sense to me. There are actual palestinians (human beings living in the land referred to as palestine) that are suffering at the hands of Israel. Whether they exist as "a people" historically is irrelevant to pretty much anything.

Re:Bigoted Islamophobic Crap

[Shadow of Eternity]

That's like pointing and saying "B-b-but he's holding a knife!" and *completely ignoring* that the alleged victim just ran up behind the first person, slapped a knife into the first guy's hand, and then shouted "help!".

At this point I'm pretty much convinced you're being deliberately disingenuous about the whole issue. If a bunch of canadians suddenly up and jumped the border into north dakota, invented the identity of "Dakotinians" from whole cloth, formed a government whose official charter calls for genocide, constantly and indiscriminately attacked canadian and american civilians, and started demanding a two-state solution we'd all agree they have no right to do anything but gtfo and go back to the country they came from. A bunch of Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese and Egyptians do it on the other hand...

The utter non-existence of a historical "palestinian" people IS relevant to EVERYTHING because it forms the basis of the entire false-legitimacy of their argument.

Re: You are Wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

Calling it Macedonia is correct, FYROM is not!

Source CIA Factbook:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mk.html

Re: You are Wrong!

[Trepidity]

I didn't realize the CIA defined international law. They might want to, though! ;-)

Here is the UN's list of member states.

THIS IS 100% MADE-UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw this posted around as a general trolling before. Never does anyone state actual sources. Let alone having been down there and observed things himself.

I, for one, *was* down there. And both "sides" are bursting with good and kind people! Exactly as you'd expect it. Only some nutjobs who want to rule (religious "leaders", "governments" & co) spread such extremist shit. In essence saying all people down there are like he says, is like saying all Americans are like the WBC.

Ridiculous bullshit...

Israel never had a claim to legitimacy.

[Uberbah]

It's built on land stolen from the native population by a bunch of immigrants.

But why let facts and history get in the way?

Will you? Jews were less than 10% of the area population in 1900. When Zionists "declared independence" they were only 31% of the population, the vast majority just off the boat or first-generation. When they started the 1967 war and illegally seized the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, they settled the stolen land with....more immigrants.

History and facts have a well known anti-Zionist bias.

Re:Israel never had a claim to legitimacy.

[DaHat]

It's built on land stolen from the native population by a bunch of immigrants

I see you didn't even bother to watch the video... it's ok... when I hear people use emotional words like 'stolen' to refer to issues in the area I cease the discussion as it is clearly not possible to rationally discuss the issues.

'Zionist' & 'Zionism' also fall into that list.

Are you also one who when discussing abortion labels one side 'baby killers' and the other 'clinic-bombers'?

Re:Israel never had a claim to legitimacy.

[Uberbah]

I see you didn't even bother to watch the video

You didn't bother to look at the link. Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine before European Jews started immigrating to the area around 1900, with a spike around WWII for obvious reasons. There is no legal or moral justification for immigrants carving a state out of the native population without the consent of said population. Period.

Like I said, history and facts have a well-known anti-Zionist bias.

Re:Israel never had a claim to legitimacy.

[DaHat]

Oh I did look at your stats... which if you'd watched the video would are irrelevant to the discussion that was being had there or here... until you derailed it.

Like I said, talking with you is pointless as it is clear you've got a pretty big hate-filled mentality (a quick read of some of your more recent comments on this site confirm it).

Get help.

Re:Israel never had a claim to legitimacy.

[Anonymous Coward]

The video was about international law. Not your personal sense of outrage.

Re:Israel never had a claim to legitimacy.

[Keybounce]

Jews were less than 10% of the area population in 1900. When Zionists "declared independence" they were only 31% of the population...

Ok, I am bleeping tired of this.

Why do you look at 1900? What was the population in 1800? Or 1200? Or 3500 BCE?

When you say that only 31% were this group of people, what about when a bunch of upstarts said that the British Colonies were no longer part of Britain? How many people were loyal british citizens, and how many were angry rebels that engaged in high treason?

We celebrate high treason every year in this country, on the fourth of july, when we insisted that the old view of "country" was now wrong, and needed to change.

At some point in the past, that idea, that concept, has happened everywhere (*) on this planet where people lived.

So you seem to be saying that this idea, when applied in one spot by the United Nations after WW2, was in error, but every other time was valid?

You are so biased that you really need to hear yourself.

*: No citation or research done. Number pulled out of thin air based on limited observation over similar areas. Actual number is expected to be over 95%, but 100% cannot be tested nor verified. Use at own risk. May contain nuts.

Fuck off, heeb.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we can all agree that Jews are a greedy and bloodthirsty people.

Jews only take a break from stealing Palestinian land to steal Palestinian water.

Have you ever considered that since Jews and Muslims are both religious fanatics who don't eat pork maybe you should just share the land instead of setting up your own little Nazi Germany in the middle east complete with ghettos and concentration camps?

Cherry picking madman.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell yourself whatever you like.

Israel is one giant set-up.

Drag all the Jews, kicking and screaming (literally, in many cases), to one location on the planet, give them a flag, make them crazy, turn them against their own, (semitic DNA runs in Islamic blood just as thick, if not more so, than in Jewish blood.), turn the whole region into one giant Semite-food processor. Make the world truly, truly pissed off with Israel's manipulative bullshit, and then. . .

Let the hammer fall. Big disaster, all the Semites die. And the world is a lot worse off for it.

It's a huge, multi-generational con and people are too hopelessly thick, ignorant and heavily programmed to see their way out of it.

Somebody is farming us, we're livestock, and this is how the process works. So watch and learn. Or do what most of humanity does. Close your eyes and pretend everything is normal. Pretend we're in control.

There's a LOT of stuff which doesn't fit into 'normal', and when you put all of that together, you get a series of answers which most people simply don't have the courage, mental tools or the emotional maturity to look at straight on. And most of those who do are either too mis-informed or outright crazy to get an even remotely clear grasp of the real picture.

Fun times.

Re:Cherry picking madman.

[boundary]

Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Palenstine on GoogleMaps

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Iphones in use in Palensitne? If so, what model? I wonder what the smart phone usage percentage is over there? the GoogleMaps app on my Iphone4 is nowhere near as good as the Mapquest app. - Boston wedding DJ Chris

Israel Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of the problem is Israel got Palestinian government classified as terrorists, so we never hear there side. Only Israels extreme version of their side.

You sir, disgust me, really. What Israel is doing is *actions* not words, and it results in a huge number of deaths each year.

Disgusting murderers.

Re:Israel Propaganda

[daath93]

Lets start lobbing missiles at your family and see how you react.

Re:Israel Propaganda

[shutdown -p now]

I introduce you to that great invention of our age, the Internet. If you want to hear someone's side, just go there and look. Plenty of Palestinian videos on YouTube. Search for "Farfour" and watch some, then come back to us.

Re:Israel Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

The number of Palestinian Arab deaths over the 65 years of war: 20,000 at most.
Much less than the number Kurds killed by Turkey, which is around 40,000.
Much less than the number of Syrians killed by Syria, which is at least 70,000 in just a few years of civil war.
The Iran-Iraq war killed about a million people (both sides).

War is indeed terrible. But the Arab-Israeli conflict is not a very big war.

Re:Israel Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

Disgusting murderers.

Indeed. The people shooting rockets into populated areas, particularly into schools and public non-military areas, and shooting FROM similar places on their own sides so that any retaliation would have civilian casualties as well are indeed disgusting murderers.

Boundaries

[Mystakaphoros]

I looked up "Palestine" on Google Maps and still didn't see any of the boundaries determined. Could Google figure that one out for us too? I'm sure there's got to be an algorithm for that. (And before anybody says anything, yes, the word "algorithm" is derived from Arabic, so it might be biased.)

Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[Uberbah]

News at 11.

Ah, I see you are repeating the propaganda approach without actually understanding the history of the region with regard to International Law.

Ah, I see you're spamming the "legal case for Israel" propaganda. Problem is, reality has a well-known anti-Zionist bias, and Israel has zero legal justification for it's formation or land grabs.

First, it was formed by a bunch of immigrants stealing land from the people already living there. Jews were a tiny minority - less than 10% of the population - in 1900. The Zionists "declaring independence" in 1948 were almost entirely just off the boat or first generation immigrants.

So, it's no different from Manifest Destiny: a sense of entitlement to other people's land.

The Israelis have always offered an Arab Palestinian State

That's always been slight-of-hand. Israel wants land, and peace gets in the way of their land-grabbing.

and in fact, the Arabs were offered international recognition of one in 1948 by the United Nations but they refused

And rightly so. The British Mandate of Palestine was going to give 56% of the land to 31% of the population, almost all of whom were immigrants. It's like if the minority Cuban immigrant population of Florida up and laid claim to most of the state - think the rest of the population might reject such a proposal?

The problem the Israelis have with the moves for Palestinian Statehood through the United Nations is *not* the creation of a Palestinian State. It is bypassing negotiations with the Israelis and bypassing mutual agreement and a *permanent* peace treaty

When did Zionists negotiate with Palestinians on the formation of Israel?

Another poster already called you out for that nonsense, but such hypocrisy deserves to be highlighted again.

for those of you who are also fooled by the falsehood that Israel is 'the last European colonial state' you may want to ponder the fact that Jews have been living continuously in the region of Palestine for over 3000 years

Ah, the "continuing presence" propaganda. Again. So if the surrounding Arab nations were to militarily wipe Israel off the map - something you guys have been yelling about for decades - to form an independent Palestinian state, you'd be just fine with it it, right? Because Palestinians have had a "continuing presence" in the area? Like most Zionist propaganda, this talking point doesn't stand up to two seconds of scrutiny.

Please also note that the Arabs and Muslims already have 56 large and mostly uncrowded countries.

Did the fact that sub-Saharan African countries were majority-black mean Apartheid was okay? Two seconds of scrutiny...

Israel is by no means perfect, but it does have a very good case under international law for doing what it is doing

You mean the international law that has always held that ALL the occupied territories of the West Bank and East Jerusalem have always been illegal and should be returned to the Palestinians? That international law?

Once you start learning the historical facts you kinda develop a completely different perspective on the issue.

Feel free to do just that at any time.

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[SplashMyBandit]

You mean the international law that has always held that ALL the occupied territories of the West Bank and East Jerusalem have always been illegal and should be returned to the Palestinians? That international law?

Could you please point to the resolution that gives Judea+Samaria/West Bank to the Jordanians? they were the owners before Israel captured if off them. The 'owners' before were British (under their Mandate). The owners before that were the Ottomans. What you seem to fail to appreciate is that the Palestinians in the West Bank *are the same* as the Jordanians. Jordan and Israel should be negotiating (backed up by the 1922 League of Nations Mandate).

Did the fact that sub-Saharan African countries were majority-black mean Apartheid was okay? Two seconds of scrutiny...

I never said Apartheid was ok. Stop putting up strawmen. It discredits the rest of your argument, so I'll ignore it.

When did Zionists negotiate with Palestinians on the formation of Israel?

It also works in reverse, why don't the Palestinians negotiate for a settlement (and the answer I already gave: the Qur'an and hadiths command they commit genocide, but I guess you have a poor or no understanding of Islamic scripture, which is why you point the finger of blame in the wrong direction). In 1948 the UN offered two states, Israel accepted and the Arabs refused (believing their genocidal plan would be successful). The Israelis were prepared to negotiate, and have been prepared ever since to negotiate provided there are *no preconditions* (otherwise, what is the point of negotiating, yeah?). So, your argument is false. Israel has always been prepared to negotiate. It is the Palestinian side that negotiate in bad faith for 'hudna' (temporary truce until they can achieve their *declared* genocidal aims). The Israelis are prepare to negotiate final borders. However, as long as the Palestinians are intransigent the Israelis intend to make them feel pain and *force* them back to the negotiating table. I personally don't agree with this, but then the majority of Israelis have come to the conclusion that they don't have a credible peace partner (this became especially obvious when the Israelis unilaterally returned Gaza and it did not bring peace but 12000 rockets instead - it is through hard experience that the Israelis think the statements you are making are quite frankly dilettante bullshit that doesn't recognize the reality of the Palestinian political position).

And rightly so. The British Mandate of Palestine was going to give 56% of the land to 31% of the population, almost all of whom were immigrants. It's like if the minority Cuban immigrant population of Florida up and laid claim to most of the state - think the rest of the population might reject such a proposal?

If you understood Arabic naming you would understand that after 400 years of population stagnation both the Arabs and Zionists experienced population growth and massive immigration at the end of the 19th Century. Most 'Palestinians' have names like 'Al Misri' (The Egyptian) which indicates where they immigrated from - to work on many of the new enterprises the Zionists set up. Even Yasser Arafat was an Egyptian who had far less claim on the land than most of Israelis (but if you actually read the references I provided you would understand that Yasser Arafat's own words show that your statements are anti-historical and false - which is why I provided them to you; so you could learn the truth about the situation rather than the false memes perpetuated by mainstream left-leaning media).

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, yes, I understand your argument perfectly. The Jews which came to the Middle East were immigrants, and the European settlers of North America were... ah, yes, now I remember what my 2nd grade teacher taught us... they were "pioneers"!

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[Patch86]

It also works in reverse, why don't the Palestinians negotiate for a settlement (and the answer I already gave: the Qur'an and hadiths command they commit genocide, but I guess you have a poor or no understanding of Islamic scripture, which is why you point the finger of blame in the wrong direction). In 1948 the UN offered two states, Israel accepted and the Arabs refused (believing their genocidal plan would be successful). The Israelis were prepared to negotiate, and have been prepared ever since to negotiate provided there are *no preconditions* (otherwise, what is the point of negotiating, yeah?).

Complete ill informed nonsense. The official Palestinian position is that they will negotiate on two fairly innocuous conditions. 1) That Israel ceases the construction of illegal settlements on its land. 2) That the starting point for negotiations for a two state solution be based on the pre-1967 borders. The latter point was accepted by the United Nations in Resolution 58/292 (Israel and the United States were the only two major nations to vote against it, joined by four small island nations). The former point is accepted by all (including the United States).

Israel refusing to freeze settlement building is a deliberate way of keeping negotiations off the table- Israel knows that there is no way any Palestinian group can negotiate with them under those circumstances, and that's the way the Israeli hard-right like it. And the 1967 border issue is considered by the international community to be a key component to making a viable Palestinian state- Israel refusing to consider it is the same as refusing to accept the possibility of a viable outcome of negotiations. The equivalent of haggling to buy a Ferrari and knowing that you're not willing to pay above $1000- it's entering the negotiations in bad faith.

Many people on the Palestinian side like to throw bile and rhetoric around (and plenty more are willing to throw bombs); but unless something viable is offered to the Palestinian moderates, then there can be no good solution.

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[shutdown -p now]

Jewish Zionist immigrants to Palestine weren't "stealing" land. They were paying for it.

Re: Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[Dog-Cow]

Fact: The West Bank was part of Jordan prior to 1967. This why the country was called Trans-Jordan -- it spanned the Jordan River.

The land never belonged to the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians (a name taken from a territory called Palestine, which was simply Israel renamed by the Romans). They were there as refugees, under Jordanian control. Jordan didn't want them as citiziens and/or they didn't wish to be citizens of Jordan.

Fact: Jordan doesn't want the land back.

Given that no other sovereign nation in the region is requesting territorial control, why should Israel, who conquered it in war, not exercise control?

Fact: Arabs do not want a two-State solution. They are quite happy with the one-State solution -- as long as they are the State.

Israel(li)s don't really give a shit; they just want the violence to end so Israel can end the compulsary draft that has been in place for its entire existance. Arabs want to create another State in which they can oppress minorities, commit honor killings and generally be terrible people.

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[SplashMyBandit]

2) That the starting point for negotiations for a two state solution be based on the pre-1967 borders.

The pre-1967 borders are pretty much the same as the indefensible 1948 borders. Why should negotiations start with this precondition? there is no legal nor moral basis for starting here. Why not start with the borders as they are after the last war in 1973? surely that is far more logical. It is this that the Israelis object to most strongly. In fact, but setting this precondition it is clear to prejudice the negotiations. Even Obama has finally realised that such a demand is nonsense (which is why he stopped saying it when he finally got around to visiting Israel).

1) That Israel ceases the construction of illegal settlements on its land.

Under International Law the land is in dispute - although around Jerusalem the Israelis make the case that re-united Jerusalem is their capital and they can build anywhere they want within its districts. No other nation is subject to interference by external meddling with regard to construction in their capital. Now, I personally don't agree with this, but that's how the Israeli's see it. With regard to building in Judea+Samaria/West Bank. The territory is in dispute. Before the Jews were ethnically cleansed from the area in 1948 there was territory held there. Now there have been cases of illegal seizures of land in the West Bank - there is legal recourse for this is many cases (although some injustices do remain, we can agree on that). It is clear the Israelis are taking advantage of the disputed status of the West Bank under international law to change the facts on the ground. Please also note that the Israelis did exactly as the Word asked of them and had a settlement freeze. Do you know what happened? nothing! that's right, Abbas did nothing because he wasn't interested in long term peace. As I say, go and see the statements made by the Palestinians in *Arabic*, they have *zero* interest in permanent peace and the Israelis now know it - too bad you don't do the homework so you too would understand the Palestinians position *in Arabic* when they talk to their own people. It is this ignorance that makes your statements false.

The latter point was accepted by the United Nations in Resolution 58/292 (Israel and the United States were the only two major nations to vote against it, joined by four small island nations).

You do know that the United Nations has become so corrupt that no one takes its resolutions seriously, yes? It is so bad that "paragons of human rights" countries like Saudi Arabia, Sudan (still practicing slavery!), Syria and North Korea are dominating the Human Rights Council. Only someone who is completely ignorant of the fact that the OIC (Organization of Islamic Conference) now has a 57 member voting bloc that can raise and force through any resolution it wants. The UN is a joke and only a fool things any of their resolutions past 1970 are worth much of a damn. Here's a little history on why the UN became so corrupt and is now working against Enlightenment values:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Mupoo1At8
I guess the huge UN bias against Israel matches your political agenda perfectly, which is why you never even stop to consider whether you are being objective or not.

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[Patch86]

You do know that the United Nations has become so corrupt that no one takes its resolutions seriously, yes? I ...

I guess the huge UN bias against Israel matches your political agenda perfectly, which is why you never even stop to consider whether you are being objective or not.

Right back at ya, in reverse. The UN isn't saying what you want them to say, so they must be corrupt.

That resolution was voted against only by the US and Israel. Do you know what that means? It wasn't opposed by my country- the UK. My democratically elected government voted for it. The democratically elected governments of most democratic countries in the world supported it. In what way is this corrupt? Is it corrupt just because my government disagrees with your government? Is your government right, while mine is wrong?

The UK government voted the way that I wanted them to vote, and the way that the majority of people in my country wanted them to vote. Hardly a pattern for "corruption".

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[SplashMyBandit]

Well, for a start, I'm from New Zealand, not US. Therefore your assumption I'm from the US is false.

Secondly, Britain has 87 working Sharia courts. The fact your country has these courts and doesn't understand the significance of them shows that the political leadership of the UK is hardly neutral (it clearly has a very left-leaning culture that is tolerant of the barbarism of Sharia; I guess you can't see this since you are already indoctrinated by it).

Thirdly, you make the fallacy that because something is popular then it must be morally just. This is simply not the case. If you had watched the video I referred to in my previous post you would understand how the UN became fundamentally broken and is being used by the OIC to demonize Israel unfairly (in line with the Qur'anic doctrines the OIC follow that require destruction of all Jews in order to bring the End of the World in Islamic eschatology - see hadith 6981 in Sahih Muslim).

Fourthly, the UN is corrupt not because it makes decisions I personally don't agree with, but because the basis for decision making is simply 'mob rule' - and the largest voting bloc just happens to be the OIC, which is why places like Iran and Sudan (still practicing slavery) get to accuse Israel of alleged 'human rights violations' for defending its citizens against the stated genocidal aims of its enemies (please go and read the Hamas Charter, it is horrific). The fact you still think the UN is working towards the principles it was founded on shows just how little you actually understand about the UN as it operates today. It is clear you didn't even look at the video I posted - instead wanted to spout your ignorant view of the UN without even checking the references I have presented. C'mon Patch86, I'm sure you can do better than that.

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[Patch86]

I glanced at your video- but seeing as it was an anti-UN video by a group called "The Jerusalem Institute of Justice", I'm going to guess that there's a rather hefty dose of bias in that video. If you want to cite sources at me, at least cite reputable ones. There are plenty of legitimate investigative news sources out there- I'm sure at least one of them must agree with you, if true.

OIC might be, as you claim, a powerful voting block. But unless you're claiming that it includes every nation in the world bar two, then you're still barking up the wrong conspiracy theory.

I don't understand your comment about Sharia courts in the UK. If you know about the UK justice system, you'll know we have a category of body for non-systemic arbitration. Thousands of arbitration organisations exist, including private ones which get involved in union/employer disputes, in contract disputes, etc. These function essentially under contract law- you agree, under civil law, that you'll be bound by the arbiter's decision. As in all contract law, the contract is entirely superseded by other criminal and civil law; that is, if you think the contract infringes your legal rights, you can still take it to a proper court. The Sharia courts have slotted themselves into this bracket; they are entirely underneath, not instead of, real courts.

Personally, I don't like the fact we have Sharia courts in the UK. As a big old atheist, I think it's wrong that people are allowing genuine legal grievances to be decided by their local holyman than by a real court. Further, I think they can be used to bully vulnerable people into not taking up real legal proceedings when they have suffered a genuine crime, which decreases access to the legal system to those who need it most. But I do see the point of them, all the same; they're for settling religious disputes in something which the laws of the land cares nothing about. They have an equivalent system in Christianity for the same purpose- Ecclesiastical Courts are run by both the Roman Catholics and the Anglicans.

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[SplashMyBandit]

I glanced at your video- but seeing as it was an anti-UN video by a group called "The Jerusalem Institute of Justice", I'm going to guess that there's a rather hefty dose of bias in that video

It is a shame you flat-out refuse to look at the other point of view. I promise it is not hate speech. Yes, it is made by a group located in a particular city - although I didn't know that was a crime these days. The problem is, much of the mainstream media has pretty much aligned itself with Cultural Marxism, so will not show the whole story from the other point of view. That video I linked has historical information compacted into a brief time. So I ask that as a rational atheist (like me) you hold your nose long enough to watch it (it's short), as I believe you might learn something as to why the UN is the way it is. The video explains how a mixture of Cold War politics initiated by Cuba and OIC countries joined forces to use 'mob rule' to defeat the agenda of pro-liberty countries like the UK and US in the UN.

OIC might be, as you claim, a powerful voting block. But unless you're claiming that it includes every nation in the world bar two, then you're still barking up the wrong conspiracy theory.

I understand fully what you are saying. However it is the 'Red/Green' Alliance (leftist politicians and media) with Islamic supremacists who are currently dictating global discourse. This control means the discussion rarely considers alternate points of view. Your earlier statement is a prime example - you are already conditioned to exclude any evidence that may be counter to your view. I was once like that, but got trained as a scientist to not only not exclude counter-evidence to my existing view, but to actively seek it out. Hence, I follow the arguments made by Islam very very closely (which is why I can see how the Islamicists are exploiting Western tolerance and slowly, slowly changing the West to fit their intended goal).

Many people are completely oblivious to the OIC. You see, the current narrative in the 'War on Terror' is that the Islamicist enemy of all Free People is Al Qaeda. It turns out Al Qaeda are a distraction. The real enemy is the OIC and their plans to slowly change the laws in the West. They have already attacked Free Speech through UN Resolution 16/18 (which Hiliary Clinton co-sponsored being the stupid and incompetant Secretary of State she was). When you first read it the resolution doesn't sound so bad, but when you think about the implications you can see that no-one who supports Free Speech and Freedom of Conscience can support it.

Anyway, Stephen Coughlin and Frank Gaffney have made many excellent videos available on YouTube for you to see. The closest racist in you will be pleased to note that Stephen Coughlin is not from Jerusalem, and in fact was a Major delivering briefings to the Pentagon (before the Muslim Brotherhood supporters in the White House had him turfed out for telling the truth about Islam). Here's a video for you to start with that explains what the OIC is doing (if you love liberty and Enlightenment values this video should be of interest):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkAZUvQAzkc
He has many other excellent videos, showing how Islamic terrorism is not caused by "extremists" (the lie our media and politicians constantly try and fool us with), but is in fact mandated by Islamic Law. His videos are excellent because they bypass the filters and spin that Western commentators project onto Islamic thinking and talk *exclusively* from what Islamic doctrine intends for Muslims to understand (note the taqiyya, kitman, muruna and tawriya lies that are given to Westerners).

I don't understand your comment about Sharia courts in the UK.

Well, under Sharia is it not true that a women is worth half a man with regard to evidence? is it not true that men can get more than an equal share of inheritan

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[SplashMyBandit]

Oops, typo, " I was once like that, but got trained as a scientist to not only not exclude counter-evidence to my existing view, but to actively seek it out."
should instead read
"I was once like that, but got trained as a scientist to not only not *include* counter-evidence to my existing view, but to actively seek it out."

As you probably know, scientists get trained to look for counter evidence. The good scientists are better at doing this (vs. a few unethical scientists that go against their training).

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[Patch86]

Well, under Sharia is it not true that a women is worth half a man with regard to evidence? is it not true that men can get more than an equal share of inheritance than a woman? is it not true that there is 'stealth polygamy' in Western countries as allowed under Sharia (the answer is yes, as recent studies have found out). Now you may not personally have a problem with this, but as a proponent of equality between men and women and Enlightenment values I do. Just because Sharia is not used in criminal cases (yet) does not mean that it should not be opposed. Sharia is antithetical to Enlightenment values - if you know anything about Sharia other than the name this would be obvious. The fact that the UK has already accepted Sharia on principle means the country doesn't really believe in standing up for *universal* human rights an Enlightenment values for *everyone* (no exceptions, not even if you are a women).

You miss my point. I do not like Sharia courts. I think, to put it in very simple terms, they are a bad thing. However they have simply slotted themselves in to a perfectly acceptable pre-existing place in English law. The UK hasn't "accepted" them, per se- they've cropped up in a perfectly legitimate slot in our legal system, and we haven't as a nation gone out of our way to single them out for a specific banning. Seeing as the same legal slot is used by a number of other legitimate organisations (including as I said Christian church Ecclesiastical Courts, but also including while we're on the subject Jewish Beth Din courts), it would be impossible to ban them without singling them out for specific criticism; which would be quite an incendiary attack on a sizeable minority of our citizens. It also needs to be remembered that none of these courts can contradict or overrule the law of the land- being found innocent of a crime in a kangaroo court does not make you innocent of it in the eyes of the law, and any judgement it makes in a litigation matters are subject to tests of fairness and legality by the civil courts.

You seem to have a lot of confused views about religion in general. Islam certainly has some violent tracts of nonsense in it (and as an atheist, you will find no hesitation from me in criticising it). But then so do all religions; these are things that were written in the Middle Ages at the latest, and the Bronze Age at the earliest, and those people had some screwed up notions by our modern standards. Take this chestnut from the Old Testament- Numbers 31:14-18- Moses' army has taken the women and children of their enemies captive, and he instructs them to kill every women who has slept with a man, kill every boy, and keep the remaining virginal women "for themselves". The overwhelming majority of modern Christians ignore these grizzly bits of nastiness, just as the overwhelming majority of Muslims ignore the grizzly bits of the Quran- it is only the hardliners who insist on interpreting these things literally, and those hardliners are what we usually call "extremists". It is unfortunately true that the Middle East is packed full of crazy dictators who would fall into this hardliner camp, but that has more to do with geopolitics than it does to do with religion.

I have nothing against Israel. I don't have a problem with "zionism" necessarily. I don't see any reason why Israel shouldn't remain a happy and modern country right where it is. But I equally have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians; 4+ million people who also want autonomy and a country to call their own. I support a two state solution (as does Israel, officially), but I think that the hard-right politicians in Israel seem to be doing more to work against it than they do to work for it. Violent and vitriolic Hamas in Palestine are to blame too. I think that building settlements on occupied land is a bad thing. I think that bulldozing neighbourhoods is a bad thing. I also think that firing rockets into civilians (as Hamas is wont) is a bad thing too. I want everyone to stop doing bad things a

Re:Propagandist pot searching for kettle....

[SplashMyBandit]

Now that you have outlined your position we are in reasonable agreement about many things. Thanks for elaborating.

I'm sorry that you disagree with me. Calling me a "closet racist" seems a bit much just for holding geopolitical views that are not the same as yours. But then that is the quality of debate that you get when you discuss Middle Eastern politics on the internet...

All I was pointing out was your statement indicated that if a video was made in Jerusalem then it couldn't contain any facts that would make it worth looking at. This is 'soft racism' and I wanted to bring your attention to it. I made the same mistake too in the past. I hope you have a think about it. Furthermore, I really really hope you take a couple of minutes to actually watch the video (please :)). I also highly recommend the following short (5 mins) video for moral people like yourself [produced in America]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hTOaRu7h4

With regard to "extremists". The latest Pew survey that was released a few days ago show that 75% of Muslims do not believe in violent jihad. Great. Now what about the other 25% of the 1.5 BILLION Muslims in the World that do believe in violent jihad. I don't know how good your mathematics is but statistically 25% is not "extreme" in any way. It is fairly normal. Therefore, calling jihadis "extreme" is a falsehood. They represent a substantial fraction (1/4) of the Muslims in the World. If you whip out your calculator you will see that at least 400 MILLION people want to kill you or subjugate you to the Islamic political just because you are non-Muslim. See what I'm getting at here? it is a *huge* problem that the statistics make plain as day but the media and politicians don't want to address. *We* may not want to pick a fight but those 400 million jihadis (plus the non-violent financial supports from the rest of the Muslims) do. If we don't start seeing and talking about Islam as the totalitarian, theocratic, supremacist political *ideology* we are doomed. And it will be bye-bye to our tolerance and sexual equality and free speech and freedom of conscience etc etc Do you really want your country to be turned into another Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Iran? because the stated goal of Islam is *global domination* ("it is the will of Allah", after all). So please stop trying to equate Christianity and Judaism with Islam - they differ in a very fundamental way (the latter is politically active and extremely violent *today*). I get what you were trying to do in comparing them, but the reality trying to claim 'moral equivalence' between them merely diffuses the scrutiny and criticism that Islam should be put under by all moral people.

Discrimination is....

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not tolerate intolerance!!!

Hammas vs Hezbollah

[Anonymous Coward]

If the other side wins then the State of Israel is destroyed, following a genocide on all non-Muslims, and probably followed by something similar to Syria or Pakistan where various Islamic sects make perpetual war on one another.

True. It is pretty likely that the Hammas and Hezbollah would be fighting each other if Israel wasn't in the way, since they come from opposite sides of the Muslim divide and are backed by different factions.

"Virtual"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't all maps virtual?

Re:"Virtual"?

[Anonymous Coward]

So is "mostly" money.

Why worry about terrorism?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the fact that an Israeli is more likely to be killed in a car accident with a bus than by a Palestinian?

An American is more likely to be killed by a car than by a terrorist, and yet for some reason the US spends countless billions of dollars trying to stop terrorism.

Perhaps the psychological factors are important, and indescriminately targetting civilians with military hardware is not as harmless as you seem to think?

Re:Why worry about terrorism?

[Uberbah]

An American is more likely to be killed by a car than by a terrorist, and yet for some reason the US spends countless billions of dollars trying to stop terrorism.

Cars? Heck, bathtubs and home furniture are a greater risk to Americans than terrorism.

Perhaps the psychological factors are important, and indescriminately targetting civilians with military hardware is not as harmless as you seem to think?

Not really, when you look at the real underlying motivations. In Israel, it's to forestall any real peace process because any real peace would involve them returning illegal settlements. In America, the underlying motivation is profit. Those porno scanners and hellfire-equipped drones make someone a pretty penny.

That someone just isn't you or me.

Re: So they're more religious...

[prefect42]

There are no atheists in the trenches.

Who's deluded?

[Uberbah]

1967 was an offensive war? YOU ARE DELUDED.

Israel launched a sneak attack on the Egyptian Air Force in 1967, supposedly because Egypt blockaded the Straits of Tiran, an important shipping route to Israel.

This presents a bit of a quandry for Zionist apologists: if that was a justified action, than all attacks from Hamas on Israel are justified in response to the total blockade of Gaza.

Your 500K children killed is a myth.

Hardly. Madeline Albrecht is even on record saying it was worth it.

How many Kurds did Saddam use mustard gas on? (Hint:>500K)

How bad does that zombie canard smell? It was bad enough when Bushies were using it in 2003. How many people Saddam had killed does what to justify the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children? Unless you were an Iraqi citizen of the time, how were your elected representatives engaged in said attacks?

Yes, everyone else is innocent in the world except the CIA.

Moranic wingnut deflection is moranic. But since you went there, the CIA have a proud history of being some of the biggest assholes on the planet. Now, before you get all butthurt and vomit up some other zombie winger canard (torture and rape rooms?), go ahead and tell us how many democracies Saddam had overthrown during his time in power compared to the CIA.

Re: You are Wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

The country is called Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia. :)

Macedonia

They're not FYROM, like Greece isn't FOETOG.

FOETOG : Former Ottoman Empire Territory of Greece.

Godwin’s law

[Anonymous Coward]

In the parallel scumbag universe of Slashdot you only need to drop term like Israel, Jews, Judaism, Palestine an a couple of dimwitted basement kids beat each other to prove Godwin's Law as quickly as possible.

The JEWS are the problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

... but apparently we aren't allowed to state the obvious on Slashdot.

Re:The JEWS are the problem...

[neminem]

Normally that would just be obvious trolling, but here it's actually relevant, so I will comment: it's not the "Jews" that are the problem, merely the hardline Israeli nationalists, anymore than all "Muslims" are a problem, rather than just the extremist terrorist groups. Both sides are a problem; both sides *claim* to be representing a much larger, much more diverse, and generally much more moderate population, but don't actually represent them very well.

fear

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel fears a Palestinian state for the same reasons white South Africa starting shifting nervously in its seat about the end of apartheid or the confederate south about the abolition of slavery.

Re: So they're more religious...

[drinkypoo]

There are no atheists in the trenches.

Nothing could possibly convince me more firmly of the nonexistence of god or gods than being sent to war.

Re: You are Wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

Until I mailed them with a correction a few years back, the CIA Factbook listed the currency of Gibraltar as the "Gibraltar Dollar"...

Use Wikipedia as a source maybe, but the CIA 'Fact' book?!

Re: So they're more religious...

[prefect42]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm no different. But looking at religious behaviours in contended and violent regions is, in my own opinion, quite difficult to analyse. It might make you think that religious fanatics went to war in WW1 for example.

Hope Google does same to Kashmir

[NewYork]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_dispute#Reasons_behind_the_dispute

My 2 cents

[approachingZero]

The people who are affectionately referred to as Palestinians came very close to having peace - "due to insistence for compromise by President Clinton, Barak offered Arafat a Palestinian state in 73% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian percentage of sovereignty would extend to 90% over a ten- to twenty-five-year period. Also included in the offer was the return of a small number of refugees and compensation for those not allowed to return. Palestinians would also have 'custodianship' over the Temple Mount, sovereignty on all Islamic and Christian holy sites, and 3/4 of Jerusalem's Old Quarters."

Arafat rejected Barak's offer, and he died a rich man while his followers wallowed in misery.

It was so close. But the reality is there is no way in hell the Muslims will ever agree to non Muslims existing anywhere they control unless the Jews and the Christians pay a hefty tax and submit to Sharia Law. Read the Qur'an.
Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

In the west the saying goes 'follow the money.' In the Islamic world you 'follow Mohammad', and he was a psychopath. I would like to think there was the possibility that Muslims could moderate, but if what you really believe is that anyone who doesn't submit to your laws should be killed then there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Christianity, you can leave Christianity and the penalty isn't squat. Christians don't hunt you down and kill you if you stop going to church, they just stop saying hi at Walmart.

Violence and Palestinian Muslims

[plastick]

Since my post was censored (because Muslim extremists and Leftists are afraid of the truth and can't debate - so they remove my post), I have reposted my thread. "F*** the Jews", "Israel has no right to exist", and racial slurs against Jews seems to be totally fine to say here, but not this? Unbelievable and sickening. What's wrong Slashdot? Can't debate the facts? So censor me? I had a 5 mod "Informative"!

Posted on Friday May 03, 2013 @08:38PM
---
Select results from a new Pew survey of Muslims worldwide show that Palestinian Muslims are among the most "religiously conservative" and intolerant of all Muslim-majority countries.

Many of the questions showed that Palestinian Muslims rated behind only Afghanistan, Iraq and sometimes a handful of others in their levels of fanaticism.

Here are some of the survey questions with how Palestinian Muslims answered:

Please tell me if you completely agree, mostly agree, mostly disagree, or completely disagree with this statement: Members of your religion have a duty to try and convert others to your religious faith.
"Completely" or "mostly" agree 82%

Some people think that if a man engages in premarital sex or adultery it is justified for family members to end his life in order to protect the family honor. Do you personally feel that this practice is:
Often or sometimes justified: 33%

Some people think that if a woman engages in premarital sex or adultery it is justified for family members to end her life in order to protect the family honor. Do you personally feel that this practice is:
Often or sometimes justified: 37%

Which comes closer to your views? "Islam is the one true faith leading to eternal life in heaven" or "Many religions can lead to eternal life in heaven"?
Statement #1 89%

"Women should have the right to decide if they wear a veil" 53%
"Women should not have the right to decide whether to wear a veil" 35%

"Sharia law is the revealed word of God" 75%
"Sharia law is developed by men, based on the word of God" 16%

"Sharia law should be open to multiple interpretations" 42%
"There is only one, true understanding of sharia law?" 51%

Do you ever participate in inter-faith religious groups, classes, or meetings with Christians or not?
Yes 8% No 91%

"A wife should have the right to divorce her husband" 33%
"A wife should not have the right to divorce her husband" 57%

Agree or disagree? "A wife must always obey her husband"
87% "completely" or "mostly" agree (46%, 41%)

"Do you favor or oppose making sharia law, or Islamic law, the official law of the land in our country?"
89% favor 8% oppose

For those who answered "favor" - should Sharia apply to non-Muslims?
39% yes 43% Muslims only

"Who should have a greater right to parents’ inheritance – sons or daughters, or should both have equal rights?"
Sons 51% Daughter 1% Equal 43%

Is polygamy morally acceptable?
Yes - 48% No - 20% Not a moral issue - 17%

Is drinking alcohol morally acceptable?
Yes - 1% No - 92%

Is homosexual behavior morally acceptable?
Yes - 1% No - 89% Not a moral issue - 5%

Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies... Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is:
Often or somewhat justified 40% Rarely or never justified 49% (highest percentages justifying suicide attacks of all countries surveyed)

Do you favor or oppose the following: the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion?
Favor - 62% Oppose - 29%

Do you favor or oppose the following: punishments like whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery?
Favor - 72% Oppose - 23% (behind only Pakistan, Afghanistan and Niger)

Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning people who commit adultery?
Favor - 81% Opp

The Rothchilds Are Pissed!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh shit, The Rothchilds Must be Pissed about this!!! good show!