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Jeremy Hammond of LulzSec Pleads Guilty To Stratfor Attack

eldavojohn writes "After facing 30 years to life imprisonment and pleading not guilty to charges last year, Jeremy Hammond has pleaded guilty to his alleged involvement in Anonymous' hacking of Stratfor. The self proclaimed hacktivist member of LulzSec, who has compared his situation to that of the late Aaron Swartz, explained his reasoning in his plea: 'Today I pleaded guilty to one count of violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. This was a very difficult decision. I hope this statement will explain my reasoning. I believe in the power of the truth. In keeping with that, I do not want to hide what I did or to shy away from my actions. This non-cooperating plea agreement frees me to tell the world what I did and why, without exposing any tactics or information to the government and without jeopardizing the lives and well-being of other activists on and offline. During the past 15 months I have been relatively quiet about the specifics of my case as I worked with my lawyers to review the discovery and figure out the best legal strategy. There were numerous problems with the government's case, including the credibility of FBI informant Hector Monsegur. However, because prosecutors stacked the charges with inflated damages figures, I was looking at a sentencing guideline range of over 30 years if I lost at trial. I have wonderful lawyers and an amazing community of people on the outside who support me. None of that changes the fact that I was likely to lose at trial. But, even if I was found not guilty at trial, the government claimed that there were eight other outstanding indictments against me from jurisdictions scattered throughout the country. If I had won this trial I would likely have been shipped across the country to face new but similar charges in a different district. The process might have repeated indefinitely. ... I did what I believe is right.'"

192 comments

  1. New strategy in criminal law? by Jawnn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Charge someone that you know is guilty of one thing with a ridiculous array of charges that you know he is not guilty of, on the chance that he'll take your plea "deal" and avoid the possibility of being convicted (wrongly) on the BS charges.
    Sounds rather like patent trolling.

    1. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reason it sounds like patent trolling is more because it sounds like extortion. They leveraged the law to force him to plea. If he hadn't he could have spent years going around the country until someone convicted him. I don't know much about him or if he deserves his conviction or not but that seems like a flaw in the justice system that should be fixed.

    2. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by waspleg · · Score: 2

      You're correct. It is. The only part that is incorrect is the "new strategy" part; this isn't a new tactic.

    3. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by the+computer+guy+nex · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This is not, by any means, a new strategy. Bad defense attorneys have been able to identify this tactic and get erroneous charges thrown out quickly for many years. The kid is simply trying to shift blame.

    4. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a new strategy, it's the way the American government has always done business, coercion.

    5. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      ... that seems like a flaw in the justice system that should be fixed.

      Yes, yes it is. No, no it will not be. TPTB like it that way.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    6. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Came for the standard patent trolling first comment.
      Wasn't disappointed.

      Come on people, be more creative.

    7. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by the+computer+guy+nex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The reason it sounds like patent trolling is more because it sounds like extortion. They leveraged the law to force him to plea. If he hadn't he could have spent years going around the country until someone convicted him. I don't know much about him or if he deserves his conviction or not but that seems like a flaw in the justice system that should be fixed.

      They have evidence he broke the law on numerous occasions. A murderer being charged for multiple murders isn't a loophole.

    8. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Even if this is true (that they have bulletproof evidence), given the fact that this tactics is often used against people who later turn out to be innocent, it ought to be banned in general anyway.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      As a taxpayer, I support this strategy.

    10. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by g0bshiTe · · Score: 4, Informative

      I know the guy, from his activity at HackThisSite from long ago, I doubt these are trumped charges or multiples intended to get him on one. He has been charged and has server 2 years already for hacking back then it was for stealing a database with over 5000 credit card accounts in it. I wouldn't doubt this as well.
      http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/11/23/233208/stratfor-hacker-could-be-sentenced-to-life-says-judge
      http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/05/14/232217/lulzsec-member-pleads-not-guilty-in-stratfor-leak-case
      Jeremy has a long history of run ins with the law, I doubt this will be his last. I distanced myself from both him and the site years ago due to his volatile political stance and open opinions on hacktivism.

      For a site that was touted as a safe place to learn computer and internet security it was obviously a recruiting ground for hacktivism.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    11. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      He probably does, I know he's already served 2 years in Federal for hacking, prior to this as well as multiple arrests for protesting.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    12. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Necroman · · Score: 2

      It is much easier for a prosecutor to throw a bunch of charges at someone and hope for some them to stick. The US's double-jeopardy prevents a defendant to be tried for the same crime twice. Where exactly the line is for what is considered double-jeopardy isn't always clear, so the prosecutor has a better chance of getting a conviction if they change someone with all possible crimes they are guilty of from the start.

      If you want top stop the state from throwing a bunch of changes at someone, double-jeopardy laws need to be changed. But changing those laws so neither side of the law can easily abuse them is a difficult thing to do.

      As others have said, if a lot of the charges were indeed bogus, a defense attorney should have been able to get them thrown out.

      --
      Its not what it is, its something else.
    13. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by the+computer+guy+nex · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Even if this is true (that they have bulletproof evidence), given the fact that this tactics is often used against people who later turn out to be innocent, it ought to be banned in general anyway.

      Why should we encourage crime sprees? If I know I will only get charged with one instance of a crime, I'm going to rob a dozen 7-11s instead of one. You should not be rewarded for committing more crimes.

    14. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Synerg1y · · Score: 3, Informative

      You moron...

      "Now that I have pleaded guilty it is a relief to be able to say that I did work with Anonymous to hack Stratfor, among other websites"

      He even admitted his guilt in TFA.

      So establishing his guilt, yes the sentence is way out of proportion with the crime, and yes this is a tactic way too often used by prosecutors to "scare" a defendant into a plea bargain. The problem here is the underlying law allowing for the possibility for a 30 year conviction, while it seems like DA is doing their job in an unjust manner, they are doing their job within the confines of the law. Best option is still to not get caught.

    15. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by stewsters · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But should we punish someone with jail time who can repeatedly prove that they didn't do it? If the trials were all within a few days, it would be a small price to pay, but its more likely that that suspect would remain in jail for months or years to prove himself innocent in each case.

    16. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's how the Federal Government has prosecuted for decades, they just don't advertise it.

    17. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by uberbrainchild · · Score: 1

      As long as the district attorneys can stay as close as possible to that 100% conviction rate everyone will be safe from these "bad guys" who are not like us

      --
      Anveto
    18. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But one computer break-in that happened to span multiple datacenters does not mean multiple charges and jurisdictions...

      There's a difference...

      To use your murder analogy, a person massing around 3.2 million tons, stretching across 6 states is murdered (chokes on a chicken mcnugget) - now the murder charge can't really be sent to trial in all 6 states as it's only one murder (or wrongful death).

      More AG games to get a win regardless of whether or not they break the law to get it.

    19. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Tom · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not new in the least.

      It's a standard feature of the legal system. You can claim many things, they can even be mutually exclusive, and the court case is there to check which ones hold up.

      It applies to both sides, as well. Defendants routinely claim that a) they didn't do it, b) they were intoxicated when doing it and c) it was an accident. The geek in you winces that these can not all be true, so how can you claim them all - but to a lawyer, that's not even worth mentioning.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    20. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by shentino · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's only a flaw if you're a member of the public.

      If you're part of the establishment it's a feature.

    21. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by shentino · · Score: 1

      They already allow estate taxes to be collected by multiple states that each claim you domicile there.

      But the fact that the murder weapon was manufactured by a corporation may prevent a prosecution.

    22. Re: New strategy in criminal law? by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

      Giving judges Cross-jurisdiction merging of cases could fix this. That way a "crime spree" is treated as a crime spree. I believe the judge cannot even take into account the cases from other jurisdictions. It would also prevent this type of prosecution abuse. Unfortunately it may mean witnesses have to make rather long trips.

    23. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by cavreader · · Score: 1

      The best option is to not to break the law. The second best thing not to do is brag about it to your online buddies if you do violate the law. And the 3rd best option is to start realizing that it is becoming damn hard to hide your online footprint if some law enforcement agency really wants to track your ass down.

    24. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 0

      #4. Have your own country and your own military, preferably with biological, chemical and nuclear capabilities.

    25. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Iniamyen · · Score: 0

      So people being creative disappoints you?

    26. Re: New strategy in criminal law? by Redmancometh · · Score: 2

      Part of the problem (part!) Is the ability for blatantly guilty criminals to get off. So in the past theh HAD to stack charges to get a conviction. See John Gotti Sr a la "the teflon don." He was blatantly guilty, used witness intimidation and threats, and was a horrible human being overall. It still took 4 trials. Or vinny the chin, or any number of mobsters. Sure they committed far worse crimes, but the fundamental problem was the same. To be fair I have no idea how to balance it.

    27. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's been 'the norm' for two decades at least.

    28. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by DarkTempes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We can definitely say that the United States' current methods and laws are not working.

      We have the largest prison population in the world (and the largest per capita). For the supposed land of the free I think that says volumes.

    29. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are guilty of

      They might be guilty of..

    30. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by zzsmirkzz · · Score: 2

      The best option is to not to break the law.

      Since there are more laws on the books than any one person could learn or know, in addition to the volumes of judgements interpreting and/or refining them, this is not a practical option for most. Not breaking the law requires knowing the law. Not getting caught, does not. Therefore, the best option is to not get caught (whether intentionally breaking the law or not). Basically, your best option is not to tell anyone anything about or make records of; what you have done, are doing, or plan to do in the future.

    31. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to play around on HTS. I didn't realize (or remember enough to actually go look it up) that it was the same Jeremy Hammond. I don't have anything to add really, but it's cool to know. Thanks buddy.

    32. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by tattood · · Score: 1

      Why should we encourage crime sprees? If I know I will only get charged with one instance of a crime, I'm going to rob a dozen 7-11s instead of one. You should not be rewarded for committing more crimes.

      I don't think that is what is happening. You can certainly get charged with multiple charges of the same crime. It would be like if you robbed a dozen 7/11 stores in a dozen states, but they could only prove that you robbed one. You can either go to trial in 12 states, or take the plea bargain for just one robbery, and save yourself the 11 other trials.

      --
      WTB [sig], PST!!!
    33. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Synerg1y · · Score: 2

      He knew exactly what he was doing, maybe not the full extent of the consequences, but he should've known he was breaking at least some law and creating some sort of repercussion. Going public to his friends is where he f'ed up. So you statement:

      Basically, your best option is not to tell anyone anything about or make records of; what you have done, are doing, or plan to do in the future.

      Is best applied to things somebody is unsure of, in which case it is very good advice. It does however go against social human nature, so I'm pretty sure some people are just incapable of it, but then again those people usually aren't looking for trouble either.

    34. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why did he lie about the one crime that he committed then?

    35. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Dantoo · · Score: 1

      When did he do that?

    36. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Shoten · · Score: 1

      You moron...

      "Now that I have pleaded guilty it is a relief to be able to say that I did work with Anonymous to hack Stratfor, among other websites"

      He even admitted his guilt in TFA.

      So establishing his guilt, yes the sentence is way out of proportion with the crime, and yes this is a tactic way too often used by prosecutors to "scare" a defendant into a plea bargain. The problem here is the underlying law allowing for the possibility for a 30 year conviction, while it seems like DA is doing their job in an unjust manner, they are doing their job within the confines of the law. Best option is still to not get caught.

      Um...you have to admit your guilt in part of a plea agreement. Calling him a moron for admitting he's guilty when he's pleading "guilty" is kind of ironic, don't you think?

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    37. Re: New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WEEEEEE dont accept your reasoning. WEEEEE don't like being punished. WE.

    38. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      You should not be rewarded for committing more crimes.

      Gee, I hope you're not a banker, or one of those wall street mavens...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    39. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is a false equivalent and is really kind of over simplifying the issue.

      It's more like someone being charged with multiple murders in several jurisdictions, along with:
      1 count of aggravated assault for each murder,
      1 count of battery for each murder,
      1 count of kidnapping for each murder count
      1 count of reckless driving,
      1 count of improper disposal of a body,
      1 count of improper storage of human remains,
      3 counts of use of a firearm during the commission of a crime (because you had 3 guns),
      1 count of taking a body across state lines
      All this on top of the multiple murder charges you're already facing. Now substitute murder with "violation of CAFA" and change the violent charges to fraud charges.

      I think you get the point. The charges get stacked in such a ridiculous manner and if you're found guilty of even one you're still going to go to jail for something and the juries are so hopelessly confused that they don't have much of a choice but to usually just do an all or nothing. Prosecutors offer deals that seem minor to the potential 300 year sentence your facing. It is abuse of power and exploitation of the system by the people within the system.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    40. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Not breaking the law requires knowing the law.

      Haven't you ever heard "ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

      This case would seem to be easily covered by "don't take what isn't yours."

    41. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      After facing 30 years to life imprisonment and pleading not guilty to charges last year

    42. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by tlambert · · Score: 1

      They have evidence he broke the law on numerous occasions..

      So... basically, like any civil disobedience act, like Brown v. Board of Education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education in which an existing and socially unconscionable law was disobeyed, ultimately leading to the end of segregation and the doctrine of "Separate But Equal", right?

      A murderer being charged for multiple murders isn't a loophole.

      A singular act should result in a singular charge. It's very common for prosecutors to "stack charges", not only so they can threaten consecutive service of penalties in order to coerce a confession, but also to ensure that they get a conviction, no patter what, even if it's for jaywalking near the murder scene of a murder that's eventually discovered to have been commited by someone else.

    43. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by similar_name · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A murderer being charged for multiple murders isn't a loophole.

      It's not a loophole, it's a flaw. For several reasons. Among them;

      If the suspect is truly guilty of the charges then they should serve their time. Why are we letting criminals get away with serving so much less than they should simply because they plead guilty?

      Studies show that a great number of innocent people will plead guilty in the plea bargain process. Students were paired with actors to perform a task. They affirmed they would not cheat before the study. Since the other 'student' was an actor, it was fully known whether the person was guilty or not. Many innocent people plead guilty when they are told they can fight the charge of cheating and risk expulsion from school or plead guilty and write an essay.

      The only benefit argued by proponents of the plea bargain is that it helps speed up the judicial process for backlogged courts. I don't agree that's even a benefit. If courts are backlogged perhaps we should reassess what we criminalize and prosecute rather than speeding up the conviction process.

    44. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by kermidge · · Score: 2

      Just a reminder, one does not prove one's innocence under US law, even if possible to do so. One strives to prevent conviction by establishing sufficient reasonable doubt of guilt.

    45. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm okay with charging him with robbing a dozen 7-11s. The problem is, if he robbed 12 stores he will have 52 charges and they will reduce it to 18. It doesn't serve justice to the victim or the accused. In some cases he may have actually robbed 10 stores but is now pleading guilty to 12. The other 2 are case closed.

    46. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by vux984 · · Score: 2

      Defendants routinely claim that a) they didn't do it, b) they were intoxicated when doing it and c) it was an accident.

      I don't think people claim intoxication as a defense much anymore. But that's beside the point.

      Defendants routinely simply refute every statement made against them. That doesn't necessarily imply a contraction.

      In any case that's not quite the right characterization.

      It's more like the prosecution will charge:

      You were there.
      You stabbed him.
      You intended to kill him.

      And the defense counters:
      He wasn't there.
      He didn't stab him.
      He didn't intend to kill him.

      And now the prosecution has to attempt to prove each of his claims. But the defense's statement that "He didn't intend to kill him", isn't tacit admission that he was there and that he did stab him. Its just refuting the claim that he intended to kill him. That's it.

      In other cases, the contradiction are more about the specific legal definitions. If you accidently run over a child with your car...

      the prosecution might charge you with first degree murder.

      You can say I didn't commit murder. I didn't intend to run him over. It was an accident.

      Again the claims again don't contradict each other at all. You aren't claiming that you didn't kill the child, you aren't even claiming you didn't run him over. For a conviction of 1st degree murder, the prosecution has to show (amongst other things) intent. So in this case the defense is arguing there was no intent.

      In a similar vein... if someone falls off your boat and disappears, you might again be charged with first degree murder.

      And this time you might claim:
      We don't know he's dead. I didn't intend to kill him. It was an accident.

      Meaning that
      a) yes he fell off your boat, but you were close to shore, there is no body, and no certainty he's dead. You can't be convicted of murder if the prosecution can't convince the jury that the guy actually died.

      b) yes he fell off the boat, but there was no intent to kill him.

      c) In fact, there was no intent to even knock him out of the boat, it was an accident.

      The geek in you winces that these can not all be true

      Only because you mischaracterized what is actually said, for something slightly different. I mean, otherwise the jury just tears it to shreds. If the defendant ever took the stand and actually said "a) they didn't do it, b) they were intoxicated when doing it and c) it was an accident." The trial would be over.

      That may be the structure of the defense, to challenge everything the prosecution has claimed, but that's not at all how you characterized it.

    47. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      double jeopardy. If you win a case, you cant be retried, at least in america. for the same crime.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    48. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      This sounds like an SNL skit
      What are the charges?
      Everything
      everything?
      yes. Everything
      including...?
      then go on to read through a list of really weird outdated laws

    49. Re: New strategy in criminal law? by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This reasoning has never sat well with me, it's common knowledge the mobsters were in bed with the newly formed FBI during prohibition and had many high ranking "friends" throughout the judicial system for decades. A more likely explanation for the failure to convict is that the non-stick mobsters had their hands up the arse of the court, Sicily has a long history of the same problem. Mobsters don't adhere to the principle of a fair trial and will only come unstuck when they are confronted with an authority they can not intimidate (eg: the IRS). If you want to see a more extreme example of mobsters usurping authority, look no further than the drug lords of Mexico.

      At the end of the day, one of the fundamental principles of western law is that it is better to allow the guilty to keep their freedom than it is to deny freedom to the innocent. This of course assumes all trials are fair trials (to both sides).

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    50. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can either go to trial in 12 states, or take the plea bargain for just one robbery, and save yourself the 11 other trials

      At a federal level maybe, but not at the state level. Each state can still bring charges. The plea bargain is likely to still plead guilty to 12 crimes associated with the 12 stores, but it is going to be something along the lines of reducing charges from robbery or larsony to petty theft. Or dropping assault charges and a number of associated crimes. There will still be at least 1 crime at each store to plead guilty to.

    51. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      The issue with that is that there are SOO many laws, its damn near impossible to not break at least a few every single day

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    52. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Dantoo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Pleading "not guilty" is a "plea" to charges laid and read. It is not a statement of facts. It is a formal notification that you are going to make a case for consideration by the Court. On some charges, in a number of jurisdictions, you are not even allowed to plea other than "not guilty". Pleading is not and cannot be either a truth or lie.

      So, when did he lie?

    53. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Weasel word it all you want. It was a lie. He committed a crime and then said that he was not guilty of the crime that he committed. You're not very sharp, are you?

    54. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I'm not religious, but the best option is the golden rule. If you can't follow this simple rule when you think nobody is watching then your moral compass needs some adjustment. When you do fuck up (and you will because everybody's moral compass wobbles) the best option is to come clean and (if possible) make a genuine attempt to recompense your victim, if nothing else your genuine remorse will be taken into account when you're sentenced.

      Of course if you have strong sociopathic tendencies the golden rule makes no sense, and "not getting caught" may appear to be the best option.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    55. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      Serial trials are EXTREMELY infrequent. If the crimes are linked, they'll be tried together.

    56. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 2

      Re: I don't know much about him or if he deserves his conviction or not but that seems like a flaw in the justice system that should be fixed.

            Fucked up legal system takes away the judging power from the judiciary.

            It's not so much a flaw but instead a way for those in power to maintain their consolidated hold on power. This discretionary power held by the Attorneys General (of the States of our United States of America and of the Federal Districts of these United States) on whether or not to charge individuals and with what charges to pound them into submission is monstrously overwhelming firepower: it's the use of nuclear bombs to swat a mosquito. It's not so much a flaw as it a specific design feature: it's meant to be that way because it was designed that way.

              It's the same as the silly hammer of "minimum required sentencing guidelines" (guidelines? how are they guidelines if they're forced upon you as a minimum???) forced upon the federal judiciary for certain types of crimes:

      These are called mandatory minimum sentences: - A mandatory sentence is a court decision setting where judicial discretion is limited by law. Typically, people convicted of certain crimes must be punished with at least a minimum number of years in prison.

              So now with the judicial branch tied off because judicial discretion is limited by law, the enormous power of the judiciary is funneled into the hands of the prosecutors, those Attorneys General aforementioned, and into the hands of the police who also have leeway and discretion in deciding whether to detain / pick up / arrest the people whom they run into or decide to actively look for or to actively avoid looking for.

      Fucked up legal system takes away the judging power from the judiciary. As someone else mentions in this article, "It is abuse of power and exploitation of the system by the people within the system."

    57. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen ignorance of the law used as an excuse in more than one court case, and it sometimes works.

    58. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the rule of ten must be "just a saying" to you too

    59. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Chas · · Score: 0

      It is true.

      I may not have seen the evidence, but the way it's laid out, it's Jeremy's standard MO.
      And I'm rather intimately familiar with Jeremy's MO. Having seen it in action first-hand.
      It's basically a super-sized version of his last CFAA offense. The one that got him sent to Greenville, IL correctional for 2 years.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    60. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Chas · · Score: 1

      If they can prove they didn't do it? No. We shouldn't punish them.

      Unfortunately, Hammond did this. He knows he did it.
      He knows the government and Stratfor have him dead to rights.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    61. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Chas · · Score: 1

      The same INSTANCE of the same crime.

      You robbed a 7/11 on 01/01/2013.

      You robbed the same 7/11 on 02/01/2013

      You robbed the same 7/11 on 03/01/2013.

      You can be tried, in serial, for each of them. Though, for brevity's sake, prosecutors tend to concatenate them.

      But yes, it's possible to be cleared of the 01/01 robbery and still have to go to trial for the 02/01 and 03/01 offenses if they charges weren't amalgamated into a single list of offenses.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    62. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Chas · · Score: 1

      Actually, Jeremy should know this law fairly well.

      It's the same law, and the same set of circumstances, that got him tossed in lockup in Greenville, IL for 2 years back in 2007.

      And Jeremy's constitutionally INCAPABLE of not getting caught.

      He WANTS people to know how "l33t" he is. That's what actually GOT him caught this time. He couldn't shut up and wound up blathering enough facts about himself to an informant to get ID'ed and then monitored for a sting.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    63. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Chas · · Score: 2

      Again,

      Jeremy is INTIMATELY familiar with this particular law. Having broke the same exact law, in the same exact way, and getting 2 years in jail for it about 5 years ago.
      Hell, he even started these shenanigans WHILE HE WAS ON PAROLE!

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    64. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Falconhell · · Score: 0

      Wow, its not him that's not sharp, you seem to have no reading comprehension.

    65. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, simple solution, if accusers have bullet-proof evidence, than it should be used first thing. Rest can wait. If man has spend year in courrts, he should be automatically released, unless there is really strong reason for it not to happen.

    66. Re: New strategy in criminal law? by Linkreincarnate · · Score: 0

      Bug noted WNF. It's a feature now.

    67. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice words, but once arrested and in jail it's no longer guilty or not guilty, it's getting out of harms way. And today, that's only achieved by proving your innocent.

    68. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shoulda went to trial. And Again. And then turn the table on prosecutor, and go after his personal assets is civil case.

      They only will abuse you (and the law) is you show them your fear, and an ignorant of your rights.

    69. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erroneous charges, yes; duplicative charges, no. You can quite legally be accused of one crime and brought up on multiple charges related to it. You are correct that this is old hat, but incorrect that it can be easily defeated -- you are literally at the mercy of however many prosecutors you have managed to honk off when it comes to this.

    70. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      you shouldn't have to testify against yourself.

      the american plea system now is 100% about testifying against yourself in a deal.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    71. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by GoogleShill · · Score: 2

      If the suspect is truly guilty of the charges then they should serve their time. Why are we letting criminals get away with serving so much less than they should simply because they plead guilty?

      Now define the duration of "their time".

      Hammond has spent 15 months in jail already, and will probably get a "time served" sentence, or maybe a little more. If the judge is feeling like being a real dick, he might give him 5-8 years.

      So, if the "time" is 10 years for a crime, why on earth should a prosecutor have the ability to stack up charges such that he might spend the rest of his life in jail? Is wasting a week of the court's time worth the rest of someone's life? This is plain and simply abuse of the system by prosecutors.

      My semi-related opinion: Prison is a terrible waste of taxpayer money and should only be used to keep dangerous people off the street. There plenty of ways to punish people without locking them up.

    72. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by similar_name · · Score: 2

      I think we agree then. Plea bargains are a bad idea. Either they reduce valid charges or they use ridiculous charges to pressure someone into pleading guilty. Either way, no one wins.

    73. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by kermidge · · Score: 2

      Thanks for the compliment. I intended for them to be accurate words.

      You're right to the extent that once in the system your goal is to get out of it. If you can show by whatever means that you did not do or could not have done what you've been arrested for or are later charged with doing then you're out. Usually.

      Once you've been convicted and imprisoned even at a county-jail level, if you can show that you did not or could not have committed the crime then there is no guarantee of release. When things do work properly it can still take years to be released. Generally the system would rather keep an "innocent" man in jail than admit it made a mistake.

      Finally, freedom once re-gained, even if you manage to have records expunged, the simple truth is that "once in the system, always in the system". No matter how rich you are or however well connected there will remain at least some physical or electronic scraps as well as the memories of some cop, prosecutor, judge.

      Once you've been processed, no matter who you are, in the eyes of the system you are tainted. Even if you've never had so much as a parking ticket before there will always be the question in a cop's mind, "What's he hiding?" or, "Well, maybe he didn't do this one, but what has he done?"

      Again, you may be able to prove that you "didn't do it" but you can never prove that you are innocent. Even though you and I understand the word to mean just that, in the eyes of the system you are just "not guilty" - this time.

      It might be helpful to understand this one simple truth: once you've been handcuffed -ever- you are from then on and forever fair game.

    74. Re:New strategy in criminal law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an outsider, it looks like the justice system in the U.S. is way pass the line where the citizens can get it fixed via their elected system.

      The sad thing is, not only are the folks in the U.S. fucked, but ppl even outside. Seriously, it takes no effort whatsoever to see why there is so much hate against the U.S., not just the government, but the citizens themselves. The inaction and inability pretty much puts them in the same boat, although not in the driver seat, as the corrupt and broken government.

      This sounds familiar? The same logic is commonly used on the other side of the pond against a big part of the population but replacing the bad guy government with the bad guy fanatics.

  2. Lies? by moonwatcher2001 · · Score: 3

    " the government claimed that there were eight other outstanding indictments against me from jurisdictions scattered throughout the country"

    How can they claim this without giving the person a list?

    1. Re:Lies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rule 1: The government lies.

    2. Re:Lies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:Lies? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because Habeus Corpus is dead. Murdered in an attempt to "be tough on crime." I think these convictions will do very little to deter other anonymous splinter groups.

      Reminder that what this guy leaked that he's being prosecuted for: The company stratfor was using their government sponsored spying program to also spy on companies in order to provide Goldman Sachs with insider information through a foreign owned subsidiary, in order to dodge US insider trading laws.

      Then the government arrests him, and not them.

    4. Re:Lies? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      They can claim anything they want (not always, but often). You shouldn't necessarily believe them if they don't provide evidence, though.

    5. Re:Lies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he claimed the government claimed that there were eight other outstanding indictments against me from jurisdictions scattered throughout the country.

      There, fixed it for you.

      --but with that said, given that he stole 75,000 credit card numbers (along with the associated security code numbers) and that $700,000 was charged to these stolen cards before the theft was discovered and the cards cancelled, yes, I expect that there could be some potential charges of theft in state jurisdictions.

    6. Re:Lies? by Nermal · · Score: 1

      "Blame the people who are actually responsible for the insecurity. Not the ones who are taking advantage of it."

      Skip the false dichotomy and embrace the power of 'and'. Just because somebody sold me a crappy lock doesn't absolve a person who breaks into my house of responsibility for his or her choice to do so. We don't have to pick just one to hold accountable.

    7. Re:Lies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does not matter if my front door is open, and you can clearly see my million dollar diamond sitting unattended on the floor just inside the door. If you take something that is not yours, you are responsible for your crime, not anybody else.

      Not the contractor who didn't build my house of hermetically sealed foot-thick titanium panels that prevent anybody from entering or leaving. Not the lock maker who didn't make a lock that automatically closes the door and engages the completely impenetrable lock of its own volition. Not even ME, for not securing my possessions better. It's YOUR responsibility, because it's YOUR decision to break the law and commit the crime.

      Stop making excuses for criminals.

    8. Re:Lies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because Habeus Corpus is dead. Murdered in an attempt to "be tough on crime." I think these convictions will do very little to deter other anonymous splinter groups. Reminder that what this guy leaked that he's being prosecuted for:

      ...was credit card numbers. And the security codes associated with them.

      If he wanted sympathy, he picked the wrong way to go about it.

    9. Re:Lies? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      stratfor was also breaking the rules of credit card conduct.

      was stratfor ever fined for it for damages? fuck no.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    10. Re:Lies? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      exactly, dont blame the criminal for breaking into my home and killing me and my family, blame the lock maker for not making to "criminal proof"

      idiot

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    11. Re:Lies? by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      This is a terrible analogy. But then, most of what comes out of the mouths of people who scream "victim blamer!" is idiocy anyway.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
  3. lulzsec is not the good guys by D1G1T · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The more I read about what these guys were doing--and I mean the stuff they've admitted to, not just been accused of--the more I think they are getting what they deserve. Breaking into someone's network to get at information that the public should know is political. Breaking into someones network and racking up charges on personal credit card numbers is criminal. They're like the idiots that smash store windows during street protests.

    1. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly. "Anonymous" (sic) basically destroyed the company in this case. No comparisons to Aaron Swartz are relevant.

    2. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Interesting
    3. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you feel the same way about Stratfor? Sometimes it takes a not-so-pure person to bring the evils of another to light. Hiding behind heroism and righteousness isn't going to fix that.

    4. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Good guy" and "bad guy" status is not as mutually exclusive as you might think. The "idiots that smash store windows during street protests" sometimes organize to do something more productive, things you'd consider to be more "political."

      The Boston Tea party: Some hooligans in the US in Boston dressed up as native Americans and dumped the tea cargo into the harbor. That was vandalism. It wasn't to protest just one thing either, there were multiple issues the protesters were upset about. I suspect that were something similar to happen today, Fox would give them the same treatment they gave the occupy wall street movement. "It's vandalism! And what are they even upset ABOUT? They can't even tell us that (at least not in few enough words to fit on a bumper sticker.)"

      Anyway, they can be thieves and window smashers and still have valid political motivations. And what they've done is illegal no matter what their motivations.

    5. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Infernal+Device · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not seeing anything on their page that is, on the face of it, illegal. Certainly, they seem to be getting near the edge of the law, but if they don't cross the line, there's nothing there.

      They may be immoral, but the moment you start legislating morality, you open up a can of worms that can't be unopened.

      Stratfor may be kind of dumb in some areas, but that doesn't make them a bad company.

      --
      "My God...it's full of trolls!"
    6. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but the moment you start legislating morality

      We already do: murder, rape, theft, and other such things are illegal. They likely wouldn't be if most people had no problems with them (if we even had a society in such circumstances).

    7. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Cigarra · · Score: 2

      They may be immoral, but the moment you start legislating morality, you open up a can of worms that can't be unopened.

      What are you talking about? Law is nothing but codified morals.

      --
      I don't have a sig.
    8. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Boston Tea party: Some hooligans in the US in Boston dressed up as native Americans and dumped the tea cargo into the harbor. That was vandalism. It wasn't to protest just one thing either, there were multiple issues the protesters were upset about. I suspect that were something similar to happen today, Fox would give them the same treatment they gave the occupy wall street movement. "It's vandalism! And what are they even upset ABOUT? They can't even tell us that (at least not in few enough words to fit on a bumper sticker.)"

      "Taxation without representation" seems to fit nicely.

    9. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      30 years though? I could go into a 7-11 - shoot the clerk and rob the store and get less time.

    10. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by jittles · · Score: 1

      but the moment you start legislating morality

      We already do: murder, rape, theft, and other such things are illegal. They likely wouldn't be if most people had no problems with them (if we even had a society in such circumstances).

      That is the most asinine thing I have read all day. Murder, rape, and theft all violate the rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence: Namely the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You have no right to deprive people of their ability to decide who they have sex with, whether someone else gets to live or die, or whether or not they get to keep their property. Your rights end where mine begin.

    11. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think you meant to say that MSNBC would give them the same coverage that they give the Tea Party...

    12. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Declaration of Independence?

      I think you missed the point. The rules you follow in social life are based on morals as defined by your cultural background, evolved over centuries of social interaction. The rights you cite are valid in places that do not care about the Declaration of Independence. The laws we follow are codified morals.

    13. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by interkin3tic · · Score: 1
      Except it wasn't just that, according to the wiki page (the full extent of my knowledge on the subject)

      The protest movement that culminated with the Boston Tea Party was not a dispute about high taxes. The price of legally imported tea was actually reduced by the Tea Act of 1773. Protesters were instead concerned with a variety of other issues. The familiar "no taxation without representation" argument, along with the question of the extent of Parliament's authority in the colonies, remained prominent. Some regarded the purpose of the tax program—to make leading officials independent of colonial influence—as a dangerous infringement of colonial rights... Colonial merchants, some of them smugglers, played a significant role in the protests. Because the Tea Act made legally imported tea cheaper, it threatened to put smugglers of Dutch tea out of business. Legitimate tea importers who had not been named as consignees by the East India Company were also threatened with financial ruin by the Tea Act. Another major concern for merchants was that the Tea Act gave the East India Company a monopoly on the tea trade, and it was feared that this government-created monopoly might be extended in the future to include other goods

      It reminds me of occupy wall street. They were upset at more than one thing. Fortunately, the media in those days catered to people who had an attention span longer than ten words.

    14. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah but 30 years is just stupid for anything short of murder or stuff like crimes against humanity.

    15. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      they weren't doing many illegal things. they were bullshitting about having good intel on many things though, but just bordering on fraud.

      however, stratfor was going against regulations by storing those cc numbers. they had no real reason to store them and the credit card companies should have sued them for breaking the rules.. and for damages for 30 years.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    16. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Read what I wrote: "Except it wasn't just that..."

    17. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Murder, rape, and theft all violate the rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence

      And you don't think that the authors and signers of the Declaration of Independence put them there believing they were immoral?

    18. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by MarkvW · · Score: 1

      Big fucking deal. You burglarize a marijuana grow house, and you get prosecuted for burglary. Everybody who is not a criminal is happy.

      It's a 'two-fer.'

      Hammond stole from some extremely vile scumbags. They lose their reputation. Hammond goes to jail.

      It's a "two-fer."

      Two for the price of one.

    19. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Chas · · Score: 1

      Okay. Go into 7-11. Shoot the clerk and rob the store.

      Now do your time.

      Now repeat the same offense.

      You're going to go away for LONGER this time.

      Jeremy basically broke into a business' server and stole credit cards (and did time for it) previously.

      So he's now being charged as a repeat offender.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    20. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Chas · · Score: 1

      For a first time offender? I agree.

      For a repeat offender? Not so much.

      And Jeremy's a repeat offender.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    21. Re:lulzsec is not the good guys by Xest · · Score: 1

      "They may be immoral, but the moment you start legislating morality, you open up a can of worms that can't be unopened."

      As others have pointed out that's exactly what laws do, that's kind of the whole point.

      The problem is that it's certain vested interests defining what is moral and what is not rather than the populace in general.

      For example, the general populace would seem to disagree with the music industry on whether file sharing should be a crime, or if it should how heavily it should be punished.

      So therein lies the problem, we already legislate morals, that's exactly what we do, the issue is that we have to legislate in a manner representative of the interests of society in general and in modern western democracy there is no scope for that due to the power of vested corporate and wealthy private interests.

      So if Stratfor has done nothing illegal it's irrelevant if by "not illegal" the things they've done are things the general populace think should be legal but the corrupted legislature wont act.

  4. Not at all like Swartz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unlike the LulzSec crew, Swartz was not politically motivated and did not do anything "black hat". Comparing the two sets of CFAA charges are like comparing someone who got a speeding ticket to someone who got a DUI, since they're both moving violations.

    1. Re:Not at all like Swartz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not going to argue if what AS did was illegal or not. Instead, I'll argue intent: wasn't his intent to release all of the copyrighted materials that he obtained illegally?

      Once again, I'm not arguing that his intent was reasonable grounds for his charges. I'm arguing that his intentions weren't entirely within the bounds of the law, either.

    2. Re:Not at all like Swartz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The papers were public domain.

    3. Re:Not at all like Swartz by PRMan · · Score: 1

      His intent was to unlock public domain court case records from behind a government-sponsored paywall and serve them up to the public.

      Instead, I'll argue intent: wasn't his intent to release all of the public domain materials that he obtained legally?

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    4. Re:Not at all like Swartz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not arguing anything because you have no damn clue what you're talking about.

  5. of course, its his second offense.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i believe in a free and transparent government! in order to support my belief, I have elected to break into near random websites and then state that it is tied to the government through some form of contorted logic, the government has no case because it all depends on an informant of questionable credibility and its irrelevant that as it turns out he was totally credible in this instance. More over, I feel free to talk now without divulging my tactics, nevermind that this is my 2nd conviction for the exact same thing and there were 8 other indictments outstanding and that my tactics are quite obviously not to be desired by anyone seeking to stay out of jail. Also, I did it for the good of humanity, afterall i was going to use stolen money to donate to charities, whom of course would be grateful to have random fraud investigations intermingling with their legitimate transactions.

    In other words, I deserve all 10 years until I learn to stop being a dimwit.

  6. One side of the story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I do have to point out that his statement is rather blatently self-justification and self-serving. Yes, indeed, he sounds like a sweet-well intentioned innocent, and the evil government is the villain, when he tells the story.

    1. Re:One side of the story... by tnk1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, there is certainly some self-serving element. I think he's probably guilty of something as well.

      However, consider if you actually felt that you were innocent, and I don't mean "activist innocent", I mean you didn't actually do anything illegal. If the government decided that they wanted you in jail, they'd just have to start stacking charges on you and get you up to 30 years or so. Then you have to decide if you can win or not, charge by charge, AND you have to decide if you can pay for it.

      The problem is, it is *way* too easy for the government to use this tactic, and tactic is what it is. It is tantamount to forcing a plea of guilty despite the fact that prosecutors are not sure that they could win the case. Instead of the search for truth, it becomes bullying of the worst form.

      All I can say is: think twice about doing anything where you will end up on the wrong side of an Assistant US Attorney. Their job is to convict you, and they will not hesitate to use overkill to do it.

      And for the rest of us.... think about how to make this go away. It is an understatement to say that it won't be easy to do, but in an age of increasing Federal presence, it is critical that these processes are firmly under control or there will be serious trouble going forward.

    2. Re:One side of the story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, there is certainly some self-serving element. I think he's probably guilty of something as well.

      However, consider if you actually felt that you were innocent, and I don't mean "activist innocent", I mean you didn't actually do anything illegal. ...

      That's not relevant here, since he admitted to being the hacker sup_g. (in any case, the evidence was pretty overwhelming; this was not really in question.) And it's not his first offense.

    3. Re:One side of the story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, when the government tells the story, he's the root of everything evil that has happened since the beginning of time, and the sole cause of all of the world's financial woes.

      Neither may be right, but we'll never hear the truth, because the truth would be embarrassing to the government and the corporations that run it.

    4. Re:One side of the story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All I can say is: think twice about doing anything where you will end up on the wrong side of an Assistant US Attorney.

      Yes folks, you heard it from tnk1: Think twice before you break the law. Because you could get in trouble.

      Next, he'll tell us how not standing in the rain can prevent you from getting wet.

    5. Re:One side of the story... by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      He did not say "before you break the law." He said, "before you do something to end up on the wrong side of an Assistant US Attorney." These are two different things.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    6. Re:One side of the story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      If an activist is committing some form of civil disobedience. Then it is in their interest to demonstrate to the public that it is a problem by fighting it in court to the best of their abilities.

      This guy is just in trouble and wants off easy. Not saying he may not have some ideas that are good but he's outside of my scope. I'm uninterested in how he thinks he's going to do anyone or himself any good.

      I would not compare him t Aaron Swartz.

    7. Re:One side of the story... by Chas · · Score: 2

      Ah. FUD!

      If da gub-mint wants to put ya in jail, you is goin' ta jail! They gonna fight dirty!

      Yes! The Evil Military Industrial Complex Will Punish You! FNORD!

      This isn't about some fantasy of an innocent guy framed by The Man here. This is a scumbag, repeat-offending CRIMINAL who got caught because he couldn't NOT brag about how "elite" he was.

      Jeremy DOES "feel innocent". Because in Jeremy's World, Jeremy does no wrong. Jeremy is "misunderstood". Jeremy knows better than anyone else. Because only Jeremy has a heart and a brain. What's wrong with theft and vandalism? Everyone (except Jeremy of course) should be living in exactly identical block-houses eating exactly the same food and giving up the whole of the fruits of their labor to Jeremy so he can "more fairly" redistribute it.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  7. Hammond Versus Barrett by eldavojohn · · Score: 1

    The more I read about what these guys were doing--and I mean the stuff they've admitted to, not just been accused of--the more I think they are getting what they deserve. Breaking into someone's network to get at information that the public should know is political. Breaking into someones network and racking up charges on personal credit card numbers is criminal. They're like the idiots that smash store windows during street protests.

    I agree they are not the good guys. But I also think it's important to mete out justice based on who was doing what. I hope in street protests when windows are smashed that the vandals are correctly identified and brought to justice. Similarly, I hope they find who are responsible for the credit card thefts but it appears Hammond is not and there are reports he did not benefit personally from this intrusion:

    Barrett Brown of Dallas, Texas is expected to stand trial starting this September for a number of charges, including one relating to the release of Stratfor subscribers’ credit card numbers. He faces a maximum of 100 years in prison.

    More here.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Hammond Versus Barrett by Chas · · Score: 1

      Whether or not Hammond benefited PERSONALLY from the hack is IRRELEVANT.

      If you break into a home or business, and take nothing, you're STILL guilty of breaking and entering.

      In this case, he DID take those credit card numbers. So it's even more clear-cut than that.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  8. Question by Sparticus789 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wonder when Stratfor is going to be prosecuted for engaging in corporate espionage? Never, because most Fortune 500 companies and government intelligence agencies rely on this private corporation to know what is going on in the world. Can we say "too big to fail?"

    --
    sudo make me a sandwich
    1. Re:Question by Grashnak · · Score: 1

      Do you hear that sound? It's the sound of everyone, in every government intelligence agency, laughing at you.

      --
      Life needs more saving throws.
    2. Re:Question by Sparticus789 · · Score: 1

      They can only laugh if they look up from auditing my taxes to see if I can be thrown in jail.

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
    3. Re:Question by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

      which indeed they are doing it to weed out political opponents.

    4. Re:Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, I can't hear it over the sound of their Nazi marching hymns.

      Those also had a stable happy 1000-year Reich... oh wait!

    5. Re:Question by kmcrober · · Score: 1

      It is not true that "most Fortune 500 companies and government intelligence agencies rely on this private corporation to know what is going on in the world." Stratfor is a small company that does some private consulting, not some kind of global anti-CIA.

      Stratfor will be prosecuted for corporate espionage when it commits corporate espionage. Stop trying to substitute drama for analysis.

    6. Re:Question by Sparticus789 · · Score: 1

      Look guys, the Project Manager for the CIA/NSA/FBI/NRO/DOD program to buy intelligence from Stratfor has come onto Slashdot! Please, don't audit me Bro!

      --
      sudo make me a sandwich
  9. Who Decides? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Breaking into someone's network to get at information that the public should know is political

    Who decides what the public should know? You? What makes you special? The perp in this case? Why does he get to decide?

    You can't break the law just because you think you know better than the law.

  10. what about Chinese? by AndyKron · · Score: 0

    What will the Chinese get for hacking into our military computers? Nothing. that's what. The US government protects Chinese, but not US citizens.

  11. Not British Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting .. Here in the UK, we've just had 4 oxygen-wasters (gangsta wannabes) get an average of 15 years each for knifing a 15-year old to death in a London street. And a hacker gets 30 years?!? WOW.

  12. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  13. Re:compared his situation to that of Aaron Swartz? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aaron Swartz is an hero (the bad kind)

    Would you please just go back to 4chan, you sack of shit? You and your dysfunctional, ignorant ilk do not belong here.

  14. COmmute to time served. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No way, commute to a fair time like 10 days,
        and give credit for extra time served.

    Seems only fair for the next time.

  15. Guess the Lulz are on the other foot now ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LOL !!!!

  16. You are a shill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can smell through it.

  17. Most disturbing; buffered charges by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 3, Informative

    So, inflating charges is one thing, but I guess I have a much bigger problem with the idea that the government can buffer some of the inflated charges for later and keep you in a state of permanently accused and tried. I've heard of this for serial killers, where they only bring 1/2 of the cases in one block in case they don't get the conviction or the convict is released at a later date. I have no clue how you address this, but it sounds like a horrible precedent. A really unscrupulous DA could trickle out charges one at a time and keep you in court for life for all kinds of offenses.

    Slightly OT, but I just watched a movie called American Violet about disreputable DAs in Texas who were piling on charges with sometimes innocent poor people, getting them to plead out under the threat of YEARS in prison, then collecting money from the Feds for successful drug convictions.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:Most disturbing; buffered charges by simishag · · Score: 1

      You address it through the statute of limitations and the 6th Amendment. Only the most heinous crimes have no limitations, and for misdemeanors and non-violent felonies, the prosecution must file charges within 2-7 years (depending on the state and crime). Once charges are filed, the right to a speedy trial attaches. Also, it's not really practical for a prosecutor to run serial trials. They basically have to go to all the same trouble, but it ends up costing more time and money since it's not done all at once, and it will piss off most judges royally. Prosecutors are also usually elected, so they don't often get away with this tactic. The only time it's really useful is if you have a defendant who you can charge with, say, burglary, while gathering evidence toward a murder charge. This is more to prevent the defendant from fleeing, but they still might get bail on the lesser charge. Lots of episodes of "Law & Order" use this as a plot device.

    2. Re:Most disturbing; buffered charges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you murder 30 people, technically they can bring 30 different cases against you. And you'd deserve each and every one of them.

  18. I think this is a fair resolution. by MarkvW · · Score: 1

    Taking Hammond's crime, his criminal history, his messed-up psychology, and the altruistic component of his motivation all into account. . . this looks like a fair resolution to me.

    I hope Hammond learns his lesson THIS time. I feel sorry for him, he's really smart and really a moron at the same time. He could to a lot working within the law.

    Feds could've ripped his guts out. Maybe THIS federal prosecutor thinks a little more about justice and a little bit less about winning.

  19. And Bill Ayers have never been jailed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hacktivism is OK as long as you are on the right side of the dictatorship.

    1. Re:And Bill Ayers have never been jailed by g0bshiTe · · Score: 2

      If that's the case you would think someone would do their best to stay off the radar. Not in their sights.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
  20. Mr. Hammond should have gone into politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will be proud to have him as my commander-in-chief.

  21. The most logical solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jump into a Chinese embassy to obtain political asylum, claiming political persecution by U.S. government.

    1. Re:The most logical solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jump into a Chinese embassy to obtain political asylum, claiming political persecution by U.S. government.

      But then you'll be in China, whose justice system has its own unique brand of suckage.

    2. Re:The most logical solution by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      But in communist Russ^H^H^H^HChina, the government rewards you for hacking American networks!

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    3. Re:The most logical solution by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Oh, since things are worse other places we should just shut up and not fix the issues we have here? Clearly the most rational approach is to let our little solvable problems turn into huge intractable problems before even start trying to address them.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
  22. "Assault by Lawyer" by lkcl · · Score: 1

    it's more than that: it's actually a criminal offense, known in the U.S. as "Assault by Lawyer". if you repeatedly sue someone, for example, such that they are made bankrupt by the legal fees of doing nothing more than defending themselves, it's actually a criminal offense. could someone please get word to this guy's legal team about this please?

    1. Re:"Assault by Lawyer" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      it's actually a criminal offense, known in the U.S. as "Assault by Lawyer"

      Riiight... Care to cite a law in a state or four which has that as a law?

      A quick Google search for the term seems to turn up mostly articles about lawyers who have committed acts of physical assault.

  23. Relieved by Iniamyen · · Score: 2

    I briefly conflated "Jeremy" and "Hammond" to mean two of the Top Gear presenters, and I almost had a heart attack. I really need to stop watching that show...

    1. Re:Relieved by Chas · · Score: 1

      Some say, his pants put themselves on.
      He was once clocked, doing eighty, in reverse, on the loo!
      Whatever, he's our guest witness today.
      And he's called, THE STIG!

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  24. Re:compared his situation to that of Aaron Swartz? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Actually, slashdot is overwhelmingly populated by dysfunctionally ignorant twats. Luckily, not all of them are self-righteously obtuse like you.

  25. Maximum [Re:lulzsec is not the good guys] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    30 years though? I could go into a 7-11 - shoot the clerk and rob the store and get less time.

    Well, 30 years is the maximum, not necessarily what would be imposed.

    However, since this is, if I'm counting right, his fourth offense-- I'm not even sure he was off probation for his previous break-in-- and his statement, which didn't include anything even remotely like "I'm sorry and won't do it again," will almost certainly be entered as evidence in his sentencing hearing, he may get something rather on the higher side than the lower side.

  26. Surprise! by rbanzai · · Score: 0

    Criminal acts sometimes have personal consequences.

  27. What I'd like to know is when will... by 3seas · · Score: 2

    ... there be laws against fabricating problems for profit that otherwise would not exist?

    Exposing such should not be criminal, but honored and rewarded.

  28. Re:New strategy in criminal lawWHO IS "WE" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who is "WE"? Are you a ruler? No you are not. You are the ruled. Stop kissing ass.

  29. Good riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't consider what Anonymous did in the Stratfor hack to be anything but "right". I was one of the people whose credit card information was leaked and was used by God knows how many hacktivists/idiots/script kiddies out there; I was just thankful that that card was already long canceled, and that none of my online identities were compromised. If they really had any integrity, or true dedication to exposing political malfeasance, they would have left out, and just outright deleted the credit card numbers and other personal details of Stratfor's customers.

  30. Plea bullying by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As others have said, if a lot of the charges were indeed bogus, a defense attorney should have been able to get them thrown out.

    If they are bogus they should not be there in the first place, according to a thousand years of western law it is not ok to throw "bogus" legal obstacles and distractions at the (presumed innocent) defendant.

    A significant part of the problem is that (US) prosecutors are judged by the number of convictions they obtain rather than the quality of the charges they lay. When implemented this becomes pile up 10 charges, plea bargain guilty for one, bingo another brownie point on the prosecutors score card, collect enough points and you are moved up a rung on the judicial career ladder..

    The US simply takes plea bargaining to the extreme and turns it into plea bulling, in the same way Fred Phelps takes free speech to the extreme and turns it into harassment. Other nations seem to be able to (largely) avoid plea bullying whilst still leaving the option of a plea bargain open to the defendant.

    US law is firmly rooted in English common law and yet a random person in the UK (or indeed all of the EU) is ~7X less likely to be incarcerated, and the figures don't look that much better when comparing the US to China. The main reason for the imbalance is that the US has 500K prisoners from the drug war alone, the EU with nearly twice the population has a total of 600K prisoners for ALL crimes.

    There is no sane explanation for these glaring differences other than "culture".

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    1. Re:Plea bullying by Burz · · Score: 1

      Culture - You could call it that. More accurately it has to do with calvinistic attitudes about right and wrong, and how certain groups become demonized as a result. To most peolpe in my family, for instance, cities are demonic miserable places that should be disbanded. Yes... Cities = Evil. Of course there is a lot of identity baggage that goes along with that, emanating from social phenomena like the White Flight.

      The White Flight kicked off right around the time that the Civil Rights movement did. White people became anti-urban and anti-government because they couldn't have those institutions devoted primarily to them any longer. By the late 70s, the suburbs had the inner cities increasingly surrounded and the War On Drugs commenced mainly against city inhabitants.

  31. Pleaded huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More like he was probably tortured in secret to plead guilty.

  32. Re:If only he screwed people out of trillions... by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

    Steal $1000 and you're a criminal. Steal $1B and you're a business leader.

  33. These guys weren't altruistic folks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know if 10 years fits the crime, but people frequently ignore the impacts of publicly releasing hacked data. These guys weren't nice, altruistic folk. They could have committed the hack and then worked with Stratfor to fix the problems. But they didn't. These guys released the private financial and personal ID info of ordinary citizens just because they could. And then used the stolen credit card data to charge things to them. In that sense, I would deem this a malicious act, and sentence accordingly. But on the other hand, a decade in prison because someone hasn't grown up yet--I don't know. But a lot of chaos--which wasn't free to clean up--was caused. That should be punished. One thing's for certain--if I were Aaron Schwartz or his family, I'd be insulted to be compared to a person like this. Jeremy Hammond's situation is nothing similar.

  34. The more likely boring truth: by Hartree · · Score: 1

    They broke into a company that was handling credit card transactions and was poorly secured. Stratfor would have done well to invest in some decent sysadmins years ago.

    Even worse, in their eyes, Stratfor had discounted Barrett Brown and the claim that anonymous would bring down the Mexican cartels as wishful thinking fantasy (which it indeed was).

    Then, they found all sorts of "spook speak" in emails and convinced themselves that they had found their way into something more secret than the CIA, NSA, DEVGRU and Spetznatz combined.

    They probably talked back and forth, and how important it was went up each time they talked about it.

    They harvested a bunch of credit card data, password hashes, etc, and posted it. Boom, a bunch of bogus charges were made on them. Big surprise.

    Then, they told a tale about how the emails they found were going to be a bombshell that would make the Wikileaks diplomatic cables leak look tame.

    A lot of the emails were the same sort of innuendo, opinion and unsubstantiated rumors that a lot of journalists have to sift through.

    And, no surprise again, even that turned out to be a damp squib. About the most they got is that the Stratfor source ME1 may be Hilal Kashan, someone that every Mideast journalist in existence uses as a source. Big, hairy deal.

    But, after very little came of it, some are still claiming that it identified Elvis and JFK along with which 7-11 they're working at. "Just wait till we release more."

    If I want that level of information I can go by Above Top Secret or such.

    So after all the hoorah, it seems they broke into a not so secret as they thought, web site and committed a not so serious as the feds portrayed it, crime.

    Can we all go back to something important like wondering what the naked Natalie Portman statue will look like?

  35. Then save us the price of a trial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plead out much, much earlier next time. You'll get a better deal, and won't have to threaten suicide and cry crocodile tears to pretend you're in any way innocent or even moral

  36. Not Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It turns out that you just can't fix stupid.

    There are simply some people who think of themselves as Robin Hoods and think they are justified in any crimes they commit... and when they think they are "right" and "justified" they then see no reason to hide from potential friends/followers/supporters. The masks they wear (in this case, internet names) are only intended to protect their identity from the authorities, whom they presume are dumber than they, their friends, and their supporters are. It's a poor form of narcissism. Luckily, most criminals are stupid and eventually screw-up while presuming themselves superior.

    1. Re:Not Really by Chas · · Score: 1

      Wow. Sounds like you've met this guy.

      I have, and it pretty much sums him up to a tee.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  37. Who decides? Are you CERTAIN? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we are now in a world of "they're BAD, so it's ok to illegally break into their computers and steal and use their financial info, credit cards etc" then let's turn the old table and see if you REALLY support this form of "justice"...

    Millions of Americans believe Homosexuality is wrong/immoral/sinful, therefore are they justified in hacking into any gay-owned or gay-friendly business to trash it, publicize all its secrets and steal and use its customers' credit cards??????

    This is the problem with the modern leftist embrace of illegal "hacktivist" activity which is anchored not in the law, but rather by as assessment of whether the victim of the crime spree is "good" or "bad". Your idea of good/bad might seem to work very well in a metropolitan left-wing bubble or in the ivory towers of left-wing academia, but in the real world where real people are harmed and where people with different political views sometimes get the reigns of power you might not like the results.

    Oh, and I use the gay example here not because it has anything to do with homosexuality or as a way to drag the discussion off-topic, but because it makes good shorthand on slashdot (because so many here are sympathetic, it's generally an opposite side of the political aisle thing, and also because it works in many ways being tied to politics, beliefs, ideology, businesses with customers of presumably politically aligned beliefs, etc)

  38. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime by rlh100 · · Score: 1

    A common jail house saying that all criminal hackers should ponder.

  39. Overreach? by Chas · · Score: 1

    As noted here earlier this month, three young hackers in Britain convicted of similar charges relating to the Stratfor hack received sentences that pale in comparison to what Hammond faces and highlight the U.S.’ overreach when it comes to cybercrime prosecutions. The longest sentence handed down in the U.K. cases carried a maximum of 15 months jail time. Meanwhile, as Hammond expressed in a statement Tuesday, he could have faced 30 years in prison were he to have been found guilty at trial. His supporters and legal team are now asking his presiding judge to hand down a sentence far less harsh than the possible 10 years his plea agreement can carry.

    Uhm. How is this overreach?

    This is NOT his first CFAA violation. He did 2 years in federal lockup previously for THE EXACT SAME CRIME several years back?

    Worse, he started this little shindig while still on parole from the first offense!

    Not to mention other convictions for assault and battery, theft, assaulting a police officer, etc.

    This guy isn't a hero. He's not a crusader. He's not a moral compass. Hell, he hasn't actually even done anything ORIGINAL. His basic idea, steal a bunch of credit cards and donate to liberal causes? Hello? Sneakers?

    He's a glory hound with delusions of grandeur.

    The whole reason he got ID'ed for this was he HAD to drop his "cred" about his past endeavors. All he had to do was STFU. And he was constitutionally incapable of that.

    I've met this guy. I've had dealings with this guy in a social setting for a couple years.

    He can be very likable when he wants to.

    But when he doesn't get his way, he's absolutely toxic.

    People as "why doesn't the government recruit him!".

    He's not a hacker. He's a one-trick pony. He's a script kiddie who happens to be better than average with someone else's tools.
    This is the same guy who went to a zero-day security newsgroup and exhorted the regulars to hold back the "best stuff" for themselves. So they could "look like gods" to all the up and coming hackers...

    Cue gales of derisive laughter.

    Here's his talk at DefCon '04 about "Electronic Civil Disobedience". Basically it was "break shit of people you don't agree with, just to break shit". And he hasn't moved on from this. Ever.

    Jeremy Hammond does NOT need lenience at this point. He needs a more lengthy incarceration and some intensive psychological therapy to relive his attention-seeking, destructive tendencies.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  40. Where is the justice by Camael · · Score: 1

    Reading about all these news about :-

    1. the US government secretly tapping the telecoms system
    2. raiding AP offices to uncover whistleblowers without warrant
    3. the excesses of the Patriot Act
    4. the its-not-torture-if-theyre-the-bad-guys excuses
    5. creating prisons outside US territory (eg Guantanamo) so that they're not subject to US laws/human rights
    6. agressive DOJ enforcement against freedom fighters like Aaron while bankers who destroyed the economy get away scot free by agreeing to "defer" their bonuses
    7. using drones to kill civillians
    8. creating laws such as TPP in secrecy so that their own citizens have no chance to object
    9. PIPA, SOPA, DMCA...
    10. ...USA, I once believed in you. A toast to what was once the land of the free, now gone.

  41. What a piece of crock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That guy might or might not have committed a crime. But what he is facing has nothing to do with delivering justice. Judge and jury have very little discretion in determining verdict and punishment: that is entirely left to the prosecutors. They can just go court-shopping and overcharging until they get what they want. The courts only can make it take longer or shorter until the prosecutors get what they are out for.

    That's very much "Volksgerichtshof" justice, or McCarthyism justice. You have lost already when appearing before court. All you can do is trying to barter yourself out of it.

    System-immanent corruption.

  42. Anonymous Are Bigots Themselves by sanman2 · · Score: 1

    Recently, Anonymous decided to target the English Defense League by publishing the personal details of its members online, in the wake of that group's protests over the Woolwich jihad murder. I'm a South Asian myself, and I find that Anonymous' blatantly sectarian political bias puts them outside of the realm of social justice. They're just a bunch of Left-wing punks with their own glaring ethnic biases coupled with crooked vigilanteism.

    1. Re:Anonymous Are Bigots Themselves by GoogleShill · · Score: 1

      You're calling Anonymous bigots for non-violently attacking a violent, white-power bigot group? Weird.

    2. Re:Anonymous Are Bigots Themselves by sanman2 · · Score: 1

      Uhh, nope - when someone is murdering a British soldier in his own country merely for wearing the uniform, then they are the racist hate-filled bigots, and there is nothing wrongful in protesting against them. That Anonymous would react to such protests by targeting the protesters while completely ignoring the hate-crime which they are protesting, says something very awful about Anonymous.

    3. Re:Anonymous Are Bigots Themselves by GoogleShill · · Score: 1

      Your logic is absolutely insane. No one in Anonymous murdered anyone, but the EDL is a violent, bigoted, hate-filled group that apparently you sympathize with. Why? Because you share their hatred of religions different than your own?

      If the EDL was a decent organization, why would they care if their membership list were leaked?

      Pot, meet kettle. There is no difference between Christian extremists like the EDL (and you apparently) and Muslim extremists.

      If people would stop believing in fairy tales, all of this hatred would end.

  43. If this happened in 1990 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    he would have been given one year probation and $200 fine.

  44. Makes you wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why the government isn't all up in arms with China, Iran and North Korea hacking?

  45. For the lulz? by nhat11 · · Score: 1

    Bad taste but it is in their name...

  46. ...what he knew was right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...by hacking into company computers....which was illegal. His admittance right there is him saying he's guilty - who needs evidence.

    Moron.

  47. You need to study OWS by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    The original Boston Tea Party took place in an environment where the nation's founders had published a great deal of information (you seem under the impression that they were vague about the issues)

    No no, far from it. I'm aware that the press was important to the nations founders. What I was pointing out is that with the media today, any message longer than a tweet gets distorted or outright ignored. Perhaps OWS made some PR missteps, but they did have a message that was comparable to the message of the boston tea party. There are several important differences of course, but I'm saying one of them was that the media in that day had an attention span that it does not today. Thus, the boston tea party's message was recieved, while OWS's was not (at least in part).

    They did NOT destroy the tea after innocent shopkeepers bought it and brought it into their shops. They did not rampage through the streets smashing windows and burning shops and, oh just by accident stuffing their pockets with merchandise... and the biggest difference is that they were in a revolutionary struggle to throw-off a government that taxed them without allowing them fair representation. There are no pictures or accounts of Tea Partiers pooping on police horses...

    You're suggesting that the revolutionaries were all perfectly behaved? My opinion is that you hear less about misbehavior from the revolutionaries largely because they didn't have camera phones back then, and also that those who win write history as they see fit. I'm sure if you found a paper with a Tory bias, they'd highlight misbehavior as bad as you see with the OWS.

    Moreover, you shouldn't judge a movement by the actions of a few. Remember that many of our founding fathers were slave owners. I'd much rather our country had been born of men who pooped all over police horses than slave owners. But it wasn't, and the fact that our country was founded by slave owners doesn't mean the whole thing was rotten.

    Are the "occupy Wall Street" groups trying to throw-off the US government because it unfairly taxes them while not allowing them to vote for representation? To me, they mostly looked like freeloaders looking to get representation without taxation (for themselves) and taxation without representation (for corporations and everybody else).... the opposite of our founders. Oh, and the photo of the "occupier" pooping on a cop car is the perfect symbol of the "movement"...

    How about you read some of the press statements they've made about their intentions? It sounds to me like you've only listened to pundits whining about how gross these hippies are. You have the internet, google "Are the "occupy Wall Street" groups trying to throw-off the US government because it unfairly taxes them while not allowing them to vote for representation?" It's quite hypocritical to say I'm oversimplifying the boston tea party and ignoring their statements (which, again, I wasn't doing) while you oversimplify the OWS.

  48. US law based on UK Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    gosgog:
      Only to some extent. Quite a few years ago, I broke loose from the company I worked for, because work I was producing for them was taking second place to other work, that suddenly became the case.
    So, I started my own company, went after entirely new work, made a point of not touching anything I had gotten or had them bid. Neverthesless, they went after me claiming, in effect, I had. So, I hired the best attorney I could find (retired from US jUSTICE Dep't). Then it turned out I had to pay for a very expensive Court Reporter, for the hearing we had coming up.That meant a a large amount of my available cash was used. In the U.K., I would have been able to turn around, sue, having the evidence to prove my point & recover my outlay cash & probably receive additional moneys for harassment. Not in the US! If my former employer had then tried to re-establish their claim and it went to court and I won, then yes, my money recovery plus damages, which they didn't attempt to do.
      But under UK. Law, I could have recovered all my expenses in the initial situation & maybe damages from harassment.
    One other thing,about US law 99 percent of the time, the one with the Biggest & law firm wins, guilt ot inocense has nothing to do with it!