Turkish PM: "To Me, Social Media Is the Worst Menace To Society."

Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-02 08:20 · Score: 5, Insightful

Dictators don't like free speech for many reasons. Someone else would do a better job of listing them than me.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-02 08:38 · Score: 4, Interesting

You mean islamic dictator ... Turkey has been a secular country since Ataturk, the people see this moron trying to re-islamicise them and don't want to give their freedoms up. The islamic leaders know that the inevitable outcome of freedom means that their influence wanes - they them try to brutalise the people back into line... hardline islamic scum - the biggest threat to world peace that there is
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Luckyo · 2013-06-02 10:04 · Score: 5, Informative

He's not a dictator in any sense. A majority of Turks are very clearly supportive of him. There is very little doubt about this.
The issue here is the conflict between the urban and rural folks in Turkey. Rural areas are not really developed, thickly populated and essentially exist in conditions that modern urban dweller would find atrocious, similar to those found in early 1900s. But to them, that is normal existence and all they know. Also to them islam is the way of life, like christianity was a way of life to farmers of late early 1900s in USA. These people will vote for islamic parties and they are in a clear majority in Turkey. As a result, every attempt to institute democracy in Turkey led to rise of islamist movements. Western dogma has for long been suppression of democratic movement in order to prevent this through installation of various dictators.
Essentially Turkey is going through the same thing that Arab Spring nations went through, but instead of requiring a military/rebellious deposition of installed leaders, they succeeded in stripping power from the guardian of secular society (army) via democratic legislative process after a few tries.
The people protesting are the urban minority who learned to enjoy the pleasures of secular Turkey that doesn't exist outside large cities. Ergodan is representing his constituents in his actions, as a democratic leader should.
That is the reality of democracy: it's the image of the people. If most voting people of the nation are rural farmers that live in a strict religious society, then democracy will eventually evolve into society that favors them over everyone else unless certain safeguards are in place to prevent this. Because in its core, democracy is nothing but dictatorship of majority.
And in Turkey, majority is currently clearly calling the shots and wants secular elements of society that it views as degenerate removed.
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by JaredOfEuropa · 2013-06-02 10:28 · Score: 5, Insightful

Bear in mind what Erdogan himself had to say about the democratic process: "Democracy is like a bus, you ride it until you reach your destination, then you get off". He wouldn't be the first dictator to be elected by popular vote, then use whatever means that lie to hand to stay in power. He has already made the first moves: go after the opposition, jail dangerous opponents (in Turkey, this means army generals who have a strong tradition of keeping the nation secular), and bring the press under even tighter control.

Not all Islamic nations are dictatorships, but most of them are. And almost all of them are distinctly unpleasant places to live if you happen to be a non-Muslim or a woman with liberal ideas. By the way, Turkey is not a Muslim country, not all of it. You'll see more headscarves and burkas in London or Amsterdam than some of the large cities in Turkey.

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If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by seyyah · 2013-06-02 10:32 · Score: 5, Interesting

He's not a dictator in any sense. A majority of Turks are very clearly supportive of him. There is very little doubt about this.
Very true. Most protestors don't want to admit it, but it is the case (or at least was the case at election time).

The issue here is the conflict between the urban and rural folks in Turkey. Rural areas are not really developed, thickly populated and essentially exist in conditions that modern urban dweller would find atrocious, similar to those found in early 1900s.
This is not entirely correct. A large base of AK Parti support comes from a new weathly ubran elite that has been nurtured by the current government at the expense of both the traditional secular elites and the traditional leftist opposition, who both despise Erdogan. But the AKP has pushed their agenda too far and their crackdown on the media has been pretty atrocious. But they were especially foolish in misjudgoing what the reaction there would be to this particular instance of deploying the always violent police against peaceful protestors. If nothing else, one can hope that all this will result in the police being brought in line since they currently act with impunity.
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-02 10:55 · Score: 4, Insightful

That's the biggest problem with advocating for democracy so hard. Without significant constitutional restraints meant to protect minority rights, majority tyranny will trample anyone not holding the most popular view. Limited government with respect for personal freedoms is needed for any democracy to flourish. Without those protections people will still be oppressed by the government, just not the majority.
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by ShanghaiBill · 2013-06-02 12:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

A dictator is a ruler who does not rule through democratic means.
This means that if a ruler, who is loved by 99.9% of the population, kills the remaining 0.1% without trial, he is a dictator.
That is NOT what "democratic" means. Democratic just means elected by majority rule. It does not mean "fair trial" or anything else. So if someone is elected by a majority that wants the minority tortured and exterminated, that is the democratic outcome, and he is NOT a dictator, at least by the definition that you cite.
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-02 12:43 · Score: 4, Informative

Who said anything about extremism? Erdogan platform is about repelling secular society through legislative means which his constituents view as oppressive towards their beliefs. It's the exact opposite of extremism.
Not at all. Erdogan is pushing a repressive islamic society which constituents see as being their beliefs. Islam is a law, a total control plan for both state and individuals alike. It is that law first and a religion second, and when people say this, they're not kidding. Of course Erdogan sees this as a chance to become a dictator, but this is Turkey : he'll get shot long before he gets anywhere near it.
But the greater problem is simple : because of technological advancement and job replacement the promise that Turks consider was made to them, a huge middle class supported by low-skill high-wage manufacturing jobs is not available for them. They are being asked, just after the first generation of manufacturers, to go back to the comfort level of the early modern age at best. Or at least, that's what the message of the secular elite is : they cannot, and will not, lift the countryside up, so if they could please hole up and die. Needless to say, the countryside doesn't oblige and unlike in the west, vastly outnumbers the progressives and the liberals (well not all that vastly, about 2-to-1 ratio). Meanwhile preachers provide a "solution", and Erdogan has unleashed them (as the liberals wanted - heh - you have go to wonder what they thought would happen).
As to the long term effect of this, we have history : at the later years of the Roman empire, when both Christianity and islam came to be, they both chose against democracy, something they had seen the effects of, something they both found lacking. They did this with support from the vast majority of the population (and so did several other religions and dozens of more political groupings). Of course the big difference is that Christianity introduced the concept of King, whereas islam went with caliph. Of course there's an important difference being that a king is bound by rules (a sort of basic constitution), whereas a caliph is a dictator, who is the law, free to kill anyone for any reason, ... And of course the other big difference : Christianity chose to introduce equality between people, at least in principle, including between men an women (like in the -then- old republic), and where they could : initially between Christians only (similar to old Roman laws which were different for citizens of the Roman republic versus others). This attitude would lead to the destruction of slavery in the west (and it's replacement by other only slightly better arrangements, feudality), whereas islam chose more inequality and direct ownership of people. This did not even exist in the Roman empire at all. It would not be until the islamic states, a few centuries later, that torturing and killing slaves for sport would become legal (Roman gladiators were volunteers, basic arrangement, you fight to the death with 9 other gladiators, survivor is no longer a slave, gets a million bucks. You die, your wife and kids are free, get $100k to get started. Often victorious gladiators chose, as absurd as it sounds, to do it again the year after. The Champion won at least 11 times before he lost). We now know that slavery allowed them to amass big "muslim" armies at little cost.
Of course saying that this is still part of the islamic religion, and one of the things people like erdogan and muslims in general are trying to bring back, is politically incorrect. Even implying the literal truth said daily at any mosque, that there is no difference between islam and sharia, is sacrilege. We're to deny 1000 years of history to make some people feel good, and of course ignore much of the goings-on in muslim countries. For some reason we have taken the exact reverse of the truth as political correctness, that muslims, who were the main drivers of slavery for 1.5 millenium and were by far the worst offenders when i
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-02 13:51 · Score: 5, Informative

He's not a dictator in any sense. A majority of Turks are very clearly supportive of him. There is very little doubt about this.
The issue here is the conflict between the urban and rural folks in Turkey. Rural areas are not really developed, thickly populated and essentially exist in conditions that modern urban dweller would find atrocious, similar to those found in early 1900s. But to them, that is normal existence and all they know. Also to them islam is the way of life, like christianity was a way of life to farmers of late early 1900s in USA. These people will vote for islamic parties and they are in a clear majority in Turkey. As a result, every attempt to institute democracy in Turkey led to rise of islamist movements. Western dogma has for long been suppression of democratic movement in order to prevent this through installation of various dictators.
Essentially Turkey is going through the same thing that Arab Spring nations went through, but instead of requiring a military/rebellious deposition of installed leaders, they succeeded in stripping power from the guardian of secular society (army) via democratic legislative process after a few tries.
The people protesting are the urban minority who learned to enjoy the pleasures of secular Turkey that doesn't exist outside large cities. Ergodan is representing his constituents in his actions, as a democratic leader should.
That is the reality of democracy: it's the image of the people. If most voting people of the nation are rural farmers that live in a strict religious society, then democracy will eventually evolve into society that favors them over everyone else unless certain safeguards are in place to prevent this. Because in its core, democracy is nothing but dictatorship of majority.
And in Turkey, majority is currently clearly calling the shots and wants secular elements of society that it views as degenerate removed.
First of all, I am Turkish and I have been living abroad for longer than 10+ years. What I am telling you here is probably not even mentioned in the Western media which is just as crooked as the Turkish media is right now. You have no knowledge of the facts and what you are saying does not even make sense.
RTE not a dictator "in any sense"? Give me a break. This is a ruthless dictator who had so many reporters, university professors and high command of the Turkish Army/Air Force/Navy arrested and jailed with frivolous lawsuits all the while telling people that he "would be the prosecutor of these lawsuits" (in his own words).
To give you an idea, more than 50% of the Navy high command is in jail. There's about 100+ reporters in jail and the professors in jail are too numerous to name one by one. Two of the accused (one was the editor in chief of a major newspaper and the other one was a professor of medicine) were elected as Members of the Parliament (for whom there is immunity with the exception of murder) and despite that they are still in jail after 5 years with no proven guilt whatsoever. The prosecution is asking for a lifetime sentence for almost all the accused and all they can present as evidence is a bunch of fake CDs with totally inconsistent bizarre documents (already proven to be fake) allegedly proving that there was a plot to overthrow the ruling government and these folks were the masterminds of it. To top it all of, they were given a mere two hours to defend themselves for the final "closing arguments". Think about it: someone is asking you to be thrown to jail for life and all you've got is a mere two hours for your defense!
Just search for "Ergenekon" and/or "Balyoz" on Google and you will see what I mean. Before becoming the mayor of Istanbul (which was a long time ago), RTE and his family was just another low to middle class family and now he is richer than the Queen of England. Of course, that must all be by the sweat of his brow ;). How else would that be possible? Before being elected a member of the parliament, there were s
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Luckyo · 2013-06-02 16:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

You are going way off tangent to show that any religious movement is essentially "extremist". It's not. Extremist is a word with a clear set of definitions. Just following religion in governance is not any of the definitions.
At worst you could reasonably claim he's building a theocracy. But theocracy isn't incompatible with democracy in any way - if majority of constituents want a state with legislation based off any set of ethics, including religious set of ethics, they are fully within their rights to implement such a state while remaining democratic, provided majority of constituents support such a state. For example the birthplace of modern democracy, Greek Polis city states were more often then not theocratic in nature due to the fact that religion was a major power and driver in everyday life of any human being living in organized societal structure. This not only didn't prevent them from being democratic, but in fact essentially gave birth to democracy as we know it.
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Luckyo · 2013-06-02 16:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

You are referring to concept of modern freedoms. These have nothing to do with democracy. If majority views that a type of freedom is offensive to them, they can vote to repel it, or pick representatives that will repel such a freedom. What you're seeing in Turkey is rejection of Western model of secularism which was advocated by Kemal Ataturk (yes, I'm intimately familiar with Turkish history going as far as early Ottoman empire for reasons I would rather not disclose here). Historically, the guardians of these freedoms were the military which had to disband the parliament every time islamists got majority and started to repel secularist freedoms, until recently when majority that didn't want these freedoms voted Erdogan's party into leadership yet again (after it was disbanded several times by military and reformed). Such parliamentary disbands were essentially anti-democratic military coups where democratically elected government was overthrown by powerful military.
Example: US and its current ability to imprison people indefinitely under anti-terrorist laws. After 9/11 enough US people of voting aged judged that freedom to have a fair trial in reasonable amount of time was no longer on the list of freedoms they wish to have. So this freedom was repelled democratically.
There are many similar examples across the world. Turkish situation for last couple of decades at least is essentially a struggle between democratic movement that wants to repel secularist policies and freedoms it deems degenerate and offensive and powerful military that kept overthrowing democratically elected governments every time they tried to repel these freedoms. And now the democratically elected government finally succeeded in reigning military in.
Remember: democracy is not advocacy of freedoms.
Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Luckyo · 2013-06-02 16:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

Aye, just like in the bible and torah. And there are plenty of communities in US that live by same rules.
Did you have a point other then that organized religion with roots in judaism is inherently degenerate from secular point of view of a modern Western citizen? Because we're talking about a completely different topic.
That said if that was your point, I do agree completely.
Re: Dictator hating free speech, news at 11. by Fished · 2013-06-02 23:33 · Score: 5, Informative

Dude, I could drive a bus through the factual errors in your post. By the fifth century, the Roman Empire had no trace of democracy, it was a brutal dictatorship. Nor did kings have any real restraint in medieval Europe. Not did Islam have its origins in the late Roman Empire - Byzantine, MAYBE, but by the seventh century their control if Arabia was sketchy at best. Nor was Byzantium remotely democratic.
That dog won't hunt, and it's amazing to me that people are actually agreeing with you!
Sources: phd in New Testament and early Christianity, university of Virginia.

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"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1

To me... by AliasMarlowe · 2013-06-02 08:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

For me, Ergodan sounds likes a real menace to turkish society.

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

Re:To me... by Somebody+Is+Using+My · 2013-06-02 08:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

He's just saying aloud what a lot of world leaders are thinking.
The internet has created a revolution in information dispersment. No longer do the the Powers That Be have a lock on the news. Even before the Internet, of course, people could bypass the regime's total control of the media (e.g., Soviet samizdats) but even then distribution issues limited how widely alternate views could be spread. Now, thanks to the Internet, it is cheap and easy for anyone to post information onto the internet, and even easier for other people to read it. This isn't without its own problems - both in the flood of available knowledge and the lack of fact-checking - but on the whole it has radically challenged how regimes control what their populace knows and thinks. And this frightens them incredibly.
Ergodan is just voicing what many other rulers - be they third-world dictators or first-world politicians - believe in their hearts. If they had their way, they'd roll things back to the 1980s, before the Internet revolution threw everything into flux.

Dammit... by ArcadeNut · 2013-06-02 08:29 · Score: 4, Funny

Now I have to like Twitter :(

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Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com

If only he'd said "Facebook" ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2013-06-02 08:30 · Score: 5, Funny

... he'd have had support from a substantial portion of the Slashdot readership.

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The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.

Re:American News Outlets... by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2013-06-02 08:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

Near-revolution brewing in an American ally, and nearly zero mention on the home pages of CNN, Fox or MSNBC.

I think you answered your own implied question. Turkey is a designated Good Guy, and therefore this can't possibly be that important. Until and unless they become a designated Bad Guy (which can happen very quickly) in which case this will immediately become a Vital Struggle For Freedom against the Worst Dictatorship In Human History.

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The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.

Every society... by Eirenarch · 2013-06-02 08:39 · Score: 5, Interesting

Every society that can be destroyed by social media should be.

Re:Every society... by gmuslera · 2013-06-02 09:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

That means every society. Mass media is tied to mass manipulation too. No country is safe from it, sometimes is their government that does it, sometimes the private sector (from advertising agencies to big corporations), and sometimes foreign government agencies. Why waste soldiers if you can make people from the target country do the dirty work for you? Look what keeps happening in most middle east countries for a practical example.
And if you think the US people is safe from that kind of manipulation, or that only follow what is good for them, remember Boston.

Twitter a menace? by Anarchduke · 2013-06-02 08:43 · Score: 5, Funny

Ha, wait till he visits 4chan

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who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain

Social media photos of what's happening by fantomas · 2013-06-02 08:45 · Score: 4, Informative

I suppose its only fair to link to some of the social media photos.

Dark days coming for modern Turkish people.. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-02 08:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

Last week, at a metro station in capital city of Turkey, a couple who we were hugging and kissing, warned by officers. Next day, about 50 people protested it, one of them injured with a knife by an extreme islamist.
Today in the same speech with his comments about twitter, to a question about this incident, he replied as "yes, i support officer; people must obey moral rules!"

Re:American News Outlets... by houghi · 2013-06-02 09:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

As extra information: going from designated Good Guy to designated Bad Guy does not need any change or adaption from the designated Guy. It just kinda happens.

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Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.

Re:Honestly by Longjmp · 2013-06-02 09:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you disagree, feel free to abuse the mod system and mod me down.

If I hadn't commented already, I would mod you down as troll.
Not because of your opinion, but because you fail to explain why you feel he's right.
Using your karma cushion is a poor example of expressing your opinion.

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There are fewer illiterates than people who can't read.

Re:German guy took part in the protest? by Darkness404 · 2013-06-02 09:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

You should have the right to protest whatever regardless of your citizenship. Human rights are still human rights, this idea that we shouldn't care about and we shouldn't (peacefully!) try to do something about X has lead to some of the worst abuses in power in history. We are all humans and it is in all of our best interests that basic rights to self-expression, freedom of religion and the right of self-ownership are protected. Why should I care about sex-slavery in Africa? After all, I don't live in Africa, I'm white and I'm also male. Why should I care about what's happening in Syria? After all, I'm not Islamic and I'm not middle eastern and don't live in Syria. Heck, we can go even further, why should I care about the holocaust? I'm not Jewish, I don't live in Germany. Why should I care about the civil rights movement? I'm not black.

Rights need to be protected no matter who is violating them. The protection of human rights in Turkey is a cause that all liberty-minded individuals need to take note of and support no matter where their geographical location is, what race they are and whatever country you "legally belong to", because what happens to one human, affects us all.

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Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.

What is happening... by Fuzzums · 2013-06-02 10:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

The police is reacting extremely violent in the protests against Erdogan, the Turkish prime Minister. Streets were littered with tear gas canisters. Several people have been killed or shot and who knows how many people are wounded.
In the mean time CNN Turkey is showing a documentary about penguins and also other news organisations in Turkey are ignoring the protests.

Facebook and Twitter do indeed play an important role in the protests. For instance it helps organize medical aid for wounded and communication about the severe cases that need urgent help and need to be transported to a hospital.

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Privacy is terrorism.

Re:Democracy and Republic by NeutronCowboy · 2013-06-02 13:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Lest someone mods you up - you're utterly wrong. Republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic. Democracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy. For some reason, right wingers are pushing this idea, when it is completely, and utterly wrong. Not only that, but it completely muddles the discussion about what makes a dictatorship a dictatorship, what makes a decision by the ruler/ruling party illegitimate but not illegal, etc.

In short, you're creating an ideological environment in which dictatorships are more probably in the US, rather than less.

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Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

Re:American News Outlets... by khallow · 2013-06-02 17:25 · Score: 4, Informative

They are also a needed conter-weight to Iran

And a buffer state for Russia. After all, one of the original Cold War reasons for supporting Turkey was to deny Russia unrestricted access to the Mediterranean.

Its a complicated mess! by dclydew · 2013-06-02 21:41 · Score: 4, Informative

I live in Turkey currently (American living abroad) and its not at all an "Islamic" country. The people are very tolerant of pretty much everything and most (not all) of the Muslims are extremely liberal/secular when compared to many other Islamic social groups. For example, I've seen Imam's, Christian ministers and Jewish rabbis sharing coffee and conversation with each other and a couple of gay men that had nowhere else to sit in the coffee house. Maybe 20% of the women in my area wear headscarves, no burkas or anything like that... and they'll happily have conversations with women in mini skirts and bikinis (hey its a beach town :) ). Most of the Turks drink alcohol, they have some good beers and almost everyone drinks raki (anise liquor). When the mosque calls for prayers, most of the Muslims around here go about their daily life. Many don't ever attend Mosque.

That being said the AKParty acts much like the GOP in the US. They stay in power because there is a strong Anatolian middle class of conservatives and the AKP constantly make noises to maintain their support. A few months ago they made a lot of noise about outlawing abortion, nothing came of it, but the AKP poll numbers went up. The same for the recent anti-alcohol law... "no shop sales after 10 PM and before 6 AM" but you can still go to restaurants and bars with no problem until 5 AM or whenever they finally close.

While the CHP (the left wing, secularist) party is setting itsself up as the 'secular' alternative to the AKP... they tend to be ultra nationalists. The military has, more than once overthrown the government via a coup and taken control of the country, because the military didn't like the way the government was acting. The CHP tend to be Kemalists (following Ataturks views), but they have a pretty poor track record with other kinds of human rights. Kurds, for example, were treated worse under the CHP and military lead governments than under the AKP. The CHP would have no problem jailing people for speaking against Ataturk or Turkey... and actually kicked an author out of the country for writing a book that included support for the claim that the Ottomans in the beginning off the 20th century were responsible for the Armenian genocide (the nationalist position is that it was a war and lots of people on both sides died).

For some the AKP has provided more freedom. For example, until recently, women were not allowed to wear the headscarf in public institutions (schools, colleges, etc.) and women who kept the headscarf had many fewer job options.

Basically the situation in Turkey is a question of balancing extremism on both sides of governance with the more moderate public. There is no simple answer.

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Get a life, not a lifestyle. - Hikem Bey

Re:Islamist hating free speech, news at 11. by gtall · 2013-06-02 22:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

Precisely. The head of Jordan, King Abdullah, gave a wide ranging interview not long ago. He said Morsi of Egypt had no depth (no shit, Dr. Obvious). But he also said Erdogan thinks of Democracy as a bus ride. When he reaches his destination, he'll get off. My guess is that Erdogan will continue to use Democracy to push Turkey into a religious nutjob state, and when the final rebellion takes place, he'll be no better than Assad claiming outside terrorists are undermining Turkey, hence the special Gestapo tactics he'll employ will have been made necessary. History will have produced yet one more religious zealot who thinks everything he does is an extension of the hand of G-d....or Allah...whatever...it doesn't matter which one he invokes...I just hope it isn't the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't want to believe His Noodliness would condone that sort of behavior.

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Turkish PM: "To Me, Social Media Is the Worst Menace To Society."

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