Turkish PM: "To Me, Social Media Is the Worst Menace To Society."

PolygamousRanchKid writes "Turkey's prime minister on Sunday rejected claims that he is a 'dictator,' dismissing protesters as an extremist fringe even as thousands returned to the landmark Istanbul square that has become the site of the fiercest anti-government outburst in years. With Turkish media otherwise giving scant reports about the protests, many turned to social media outlets for information on the unrest. 'There is now a menace which is called Twitter,' Erdogan said. 'The best examples of lies can be found there. To me, social media is the worst menace to society.' 'The people are finally standing up, speaking up and fighting for their rights,' said Hakan Tas, a deputy for the Left Party in Berlin's local assembly, who took part in the protest."

Comments

Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dictators don't like free speech for many reasons. Someone else would do a better job of listing them than me.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically he's not a dictator, just trying to take the next step to become one.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean islamic dictator ... Turkey has been a secular country since Ataturk, the people see this moron trying to re-islamicise them and don't want to give their freedoms up. The islamic leaders know that the inevitable outcome of freedom means that their influence wanes - they them try to brutalise the people back into line... hardline islamic scum - the biggest threat to world peace that there is

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

He's not a dictator in any sense. A majority of Turks are very clearly supportive of him. There is very little doubt about this.

The issue here is the conflict between the urban and rural folks in Turkey. Rural areas are not really developed, thickly populated and essentially exist in conditions that modern urban dweller would find atrocious, similar to those found in early 1900s. But to them, that is normal existence and all they know. Also to them islam is the way of life, like christianity was a way of life to farmers of late early 1900s in USA. These people will vote for islamic parties and they are in a clear majority in Turkey. As a result, every attempt to institute democracy in Turkey led to rise of islamist movements. Western dogma has for long been suppression of democratic movement in order to prevent this through installation of various dictators.

Essentially Turkey is going through the same thing that Arab Spring nations went through, but instead of requiring a military/rebellious deposition of installed leaders, they succeeded in stripping power from the guardian of secular society (army) via democratic legislative process after a few tries.

The people protesting are the urban minority who learned to enjoy the pleasures of secular Turkey that doesn't exist outside large cities. Ergodan is representing his constituents in his actions, as a democratic leader should.

That is the reality of democracy: it's the image of the people. If most voting people of the nation are rural farmers that live in a strict religious society, then democracy will eventually evolve into society that favors them over everyone else unless certain safeguards are in place to prevent this. Because in its core, democracy is nothing but dictatorship of majority.

And in Turkey, majority is currently clearly calling the shots and wants secular elements of society that it views as degenerate removed.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[JaredOfEuropa]

Bear in mind what Erdogan himself had to say about the democratic process: "Democracy is like a bus, you ride it until you reach your destination, then you get off". He wouldn't be the first dictator to be elected by popular vote, then use whatever means that lie to hand to stay in power. He has already made the first moves: go after the opposition, jail dangerous opponents (in Turkey, this means army generals who have a strong tradition of keeping the nation secular), and bring the press under even tighter control.

Not all Islamic nations are dictatorships, but most of them are. And almost all of them are distinctly unpleasant places to live if you happen to be a non-Muslim or a woman with liberal ideas. By the way, Turkey is not a Muslim country, not all of it. You'll see more headscarves and burkas in London or Amsterdam than some of the large cities in Turkey.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[seyyah]

He's not a dictator in any sense. A majority of Turks are very clearly supportive of him. There is very little doubt about this.

Very true. Most protestors don't want to admit it, but it is the case (or at least was the case at election time).

The issue here is the conflict between the urban and rural folks in Turkey. Rural areas are not really developed, thickly populated and essentially exist in conditions that modern urban dweller would find atrocious, similar to those found in early 1900s.

This is not entirely correct. A large base of AK Parti support comes from a new weathly ubran elite that has been nurtured by the current government at the expense of both the traditional secular elites and the traditional leftist opposition, who both despise Erdogan. But the AKP has pushed their agenda too far and their crackdown on the media has been pretty atrocious. But they were especially foolish in misjudgoing what the reaction there would be to this particular instance of deploying the always violent police against peaceful protestors. If nothing else, one can hope that all this will result in the police being brought in line since they currently act with impunity.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[rockout]

20+ years ago, they were sneering at Bush Sr for being "too much of a wimp to invade Iraq" ....For those of us who don't have a 30-second memory span like the amnesiacs on the Left, their hypocrisies are plain for anyone to see.

Yeah, like that Leftist Dick Cheney, imagine if he was in a position of power later and had a chance to re-invade Iraq! Things could've really gotten hairy.

Your history re-write is amazing both in its chutzpah and inaccuracy. Please list some examples of prominent, relevant, left-wing politicians that were screaming for an attack deep into Iraq in 1991. I'd be amazed to see any.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the biggest problem with advocating for democracy so hard. Without significant constitutional restraints meant to protect minority rights, majority tyranny will trample anyone not holding the most popular view. Limited government with respect for personal freedoms is needed for any democracy to flourish. Without those protections people will still be oppressed by the government, just not the majority.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

Who said anything about extremism? Erdogan platform is about repelling secular society through legislative means which his constituents view as oppressive towards their beliefs. It's the exact opposite of extremism.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[tftp]

He's not a dictator in any sense. A majority of Turks are very clearly supportive of him.

Popular support is orthogonal to being a dictator. Wikipedia defines a dictator in different terms:

A dictator is a ruler who does not rule through democratic means.

This means that if a ruler, who is loved by 99.9% of the population, kills the remaining 0.1% without trial, he is a dictator.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[ShanghaiBill]

A dictator is a ruler who does not rule through democratic means.

This means that if a ruler, who is loved by 99.9% of the population, kills the remaining 0.1% without trial, he is a dictator.

That is NOT what "democratic" means. Democratic just means elected by majority rule. It does not mean "fair trial" or anything else. So if someone is elected by a majority that wants the minority tortured and exterminated, that is the democratic outcome, and he is NOT a dictator, at least by the definition that you cite.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said anything about extremism? Erdogan platform is about repelling secular society through legislative means which his constituents view as oppressive towards their beliefs. It's the exact opposite of extremism.

Not at all. Erdogan is pushing a repressive islamic society which constituents see as being their beliefs. Islam is a law, a total control plan for both state and individuals alike. It is that law first and a religion second, and when people say this, they're not kidding. Of course Erdogan sees this as a chance to become a dictator, but this is Turkey : he'll get shot long before he gets anywhere near it.

But the greater problem is simple : because of technological advancement and job replacement the promise that Turks consider was made to them, a huge middle class supported by low-skill high-wage manufacturing jobs is not available for them. They are being asked, just after the first generation of manufacturers, to go back to the comfort level of the early modern age at best. Or at least, that's what the message of the secular elite is : they cannot, and will not, lift the countryside up, so if they could please hole up and die. Needless to say, the countryside doesn't oblige and unlike in the west, vastly outnumbers the progressives and the liberals (well not all that vastly, about 2-to-1 ratio). Meanwhile preachers provide a "solution", and Erdogan has unleashed them (as the liberals wanted - heh - you have go to wonder what they thought would happen).

As to the long term effect of this, we have history : at the later years of the Roman empire, when both Christianity and islam came to be, they both chose against democracy, something they had seen the effects of, something they both found lacking. They did this with support from the vast majority of the population (and so did several other religions and dozens of more political groupings). Of course the big difference is that Christianity introduced the concept of King, whereas islam went with caliph. Of course there's an important difference being that a king is bound by rules (a sort of basic constitution), whereas a caliph is a dictator, who is the law, free to kill anyone for any reason, ... And of course the other big difference : Christianity chose to introduce equality between people, at least in principle, including between men an women (like in the -then- old republic), and where they could : initially between Christians only (similar to old Roman laws which were different for citizens of the Roman republic versus others). This attitude would lead to the destruction of slavery in the west (and it's replacement by other only slightly better arrangements, feudality), whereas islam chose more inequality and direct ownership of people. This did not even exist in the Roman empire at all. It would not be until the islamic states, a few centuries later, that torturing and killing slaves for sport would become legal (Roman gladiators were volunteers, basic arrangement, you fight to the death with 9 other gladiators, survivor is no longer a slave, gets a million bucks. You die, your wife and kids are free, get $100k to get started. Often victorious gladiators chose, as absurd as it sounds, to do it again the year after. The Champion won at least 11 times before he lost). We now know that slavery allowed them to amass big "muslim" armies at little cost.

Of course saying that this is still part of the islamic religion, and one of the things people like erdogan and muslims in general are trying to bring back, is politically incorrect. Even implying the literal truth said daily at any mosque, that there is no difference between islam and sharia, is sacrilege. We're to deny 1000 years of history to make some people feel good, and of course ignore much of the goings-on in muslim countries. For some reason we have taken the exact reverse of the truth as political correctness, that muslims, who were the main drivers of slavery for 1.5 millenium and were by far the worst offenders when i

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[tftp]

That is NOT what "democratic" means.

But that's what "democratic means" means. Wikipedia is talking about methods of ruling, not about methods of getting elected. Otherwise many famous dictators appear to be democrats. But arbitrary killing of people just because the ruler wants them dead is usually called tyranny.

Besides, the word "democracy" these days is more than just a term for ancient Greek democracy. It includes rule of law, fair treatment of minorities, rules of conduct, and so on.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Smauler]

Hitler and Stalin were both supported by the majority - and they were still dictators.

Hitler never got more than about 35% of the vote in free elections.

However, the last time the party that got into power in the UK got most of the votes cast was in the 70's, IIRC. Most people have voted for someone else in every election since, until the recent coalition (if you include both Tory and LibDem votes as a block).

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not a dictator in any sense. A majority of Turks are very clearly supportive of him. There is very little doubt about this.

The issue here is the conflict between the urban and rural folks in Turkey. Rural areas are not really developed, thickly populated and essentially exist in conditions that modern urban dweller would find atrocious, similar to those found in early 1900s. But to them, that is normal existence and all they know. Also to them islam is the way of life, like christianity was a way of life to farmers of late early 1900s in USA. These people will vote for islamic parties and they are in a clear majority in Turkey. As a result, every attempt to institute democracy in Turkey led to rise of islamist movements. Western dogma has for long been suppression of democratic movement in order to prevent this through installation of various dictators.

Essentially Turkey is going through the same thing that Arab Spring nations went through, but instead of requiring a military/rebellious deposition of installed leaders, they succeeded in stripping power from the guardian of secular society (army) via democratic legislative process after a few tries.

The people protesting are the urban minority who learned to enjoy the pleasures of secular Turkey that doesn't exist outside large cities. Ergodan is representing his constituents in his actions, as a democratic leader should.

That is the reality of democracy: it's the image of the people. If most voting people of the nation are rural farmers that live in a strict religious society, then democracy will eventually evolve into society that favors them over everyone else unless certain safeguards are in place to prevent this. Because in its core, democracy is nothing but dictatorship of majority.

And in Turkey, majority is currently clearly calling the shots and wants secular elements of society that it views as degenerate removed.

First of all, I am Turkish and I have been living abroad for longer than 10+ years. What I am telling you here is probably not even mentioned in the Western media which is just as crooked as the Turkish media is right now. You have no knowledge of the facts and what you are saying does not even make sense.

RTE not a dictator "in any sense"? Give me a break. This is a ruthless dictator who had so many reporters, university professors and high command of the Turkish Army/Air Force/Navy arrested and jailed with frivolous lawsuits all the while telling people that he "would be the prosecutor of these lawsuits" (in his own words).
To give you an idea, more than 50% of the Navy high command is in jail. There's about 100+ reporters in jail and the professors in jail are too numerous to name one by one. Two of the accused (one was the editor in chief of a major newspaper and the other one was a professor of medicine) were elected as Members of the Parliament (for whom there is immunity with the exception of murder) and despite that they are still in jail after 5 years with no proven guilt whatsoever. The prosecution is asking for a lifetime sentence for almost all the accused and all they can present as evidence is a bunch of fake CDs with totally inconsistent bizarre documents (already proven to be fake) allegedly proving that there was a plot to overthrow the ruling government and these folks were the masterminds of it. To top it all of, they were given a mere two hours to defend themselves for the final "closing arguments". Think about it: someone is asking you to be thrown to jail for life and all you've got is a mere two hours for your defense!

Just search for "Ergenekon" and/or "Balyoz" on Google and you will see what I mean. Before becoming the mayor of Istanbul (which was a long time ago), RTE and his family was just another low to middle class family and now he is richer than the Queen of England. Of course, that must all be by the sweat of his brow ;). How else would that be possible? Before being elected a member of the parliament, there were s

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Smauler]

Besides, the word "democracy" these days is more than just a term for ancient Greek democracy. It includes rule of law, fair treatment of minorities, rules of conduct, and so on.

Yeah... that's not actually what the word means, though. If you include all that, it becomes a social contract (rules of conduct), and that's not what democracy is about at all. I personally am for some kind of democracy almost universally, but completely against universal rules of conduct. Also, the only major country close to a true democracy is Switzerland - everyone else is representation. There's no technical reason why we all can't get more democratic now.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[tftp]

There's no technical reason why we all can't get more democratic now.

True democracy, the one that you describe, requires educated population that votes according to knowledge, not by emotions, or fears, or empty promises.

Greek democracies were small in scope (such as a single city.) It was easier to keep the demos informed. Today, on scale of the USA or a similarly sized country, it is all but impossible to educate every voter on every small issue. Just consider the waste of time! Instead of a hundred hired administrators we have to have a hundred million! Voting on most issues would become nearly automatic, and most people would defer to the position of their party - who does the thinking for them and tells them how to vote. How would that be different from what we have today, modulo the dumb button-pushing?

The complexity of governing is well illustrated by about any law that is adopted today. Obamacare stands out, of course - even the elected congressmen haven't read it. How would anyone be able to keep up with changes that are checked in by tens of teams? When Pelosi said "âoeWe have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" she meant that only the final law can be meaningfully studied. It also highlighted the absurdity of the lawmaking process, that is so much out of control that were it C code, the tree would never compile. You can always ask millions of voters what they think about the law that changes as they are reading it, but you won't be able to print the answers. The legalese would fly over the heads of at least 100% of the population. (Those who can parse it are the rounding error.)

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

Greek democracies were small in scope (such as a single city.) It was easier to keep the demos informed. Today, on scale of the USA or a similarly sized country, it is all but impossible to educate every voter on every small issue. Just consider the waste of time!

yeah, you're clearly better off watching American Idol/The Voice/Killer Karaoke/the latest pop-star drama etc etc than getting educated about the world around you and how it really works. If Fox/CNN/MSNBC etc etc suddenly became true investigative journalism channels, things would change for the better, but i'm not holding my breath

The way most people spend their lives these days on ephemeral thrills is the real waste of time as they leave the world a slightly worse place that it could have been.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Anonymous Coward]

Plenty of Turkish citizens think he is a dictator, regardless of what you, or any Americans, say.

The democratic process can theoretically remove him, but in practice, as we saw in the last election, he controls the police, the judges, the election system, the government contracts, the media, and the money, so it's not easy even if he doesn't have a majority.

His latest gambit is to change the constitution from a parlimentary to presidential system... with himself as president.

Turkey is not almost a member of the EU. The EU doesn't want Turkey, and Erdogan doesn't really want the EU. He played the EU card to get the votes of moderates early on. What he really wants is to be the leader of a Middle East Union, a return to the Ottoman Caliphate.

But what do I know, I'm just a (Turkish) American.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

You are going way off tangent to show that any religious movement is essentially "extremist". It's not. Extremist is a word with a clear set of definitions. Just following religion in governance is not any of the definitions.

At worst you could reasonably claim he's building a theocracy. But theocracy isn't incompatible with democracy in any way - if majority of constituents want a state with legislation based off any set of ethics, including religious set of ethics, they are fully within their rights to implement such a state while remaining democratic, provided majority of constituents support such a state. For example the birthplace of modern democracy, Greek Polis city states were more often then not theocratic in nature due to the fact that religion was a major power and driver in everyday life of any human being living in organized societal structure. This not only didn't prevent them from being democratic, but in fact essentially gave birth to democracy as we know it.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[tftp]

yeah, you're clearly better off watching American Idol/The Voice/Killer Karaoke/the latest pop-star drama etc etc than getting educated about the world around you and how it really works.

You say that in jest, but as matter of fact every individual, within a limited time period, is better off pleasuring himself rather than doing hard work for betterment of the society. That's how Roman Empire fell, and many other empires, before and after. This is what the USA is doing currently, gorging on credits that will never be paid back. Sticking the children with the bill is the way to go today, as it seems.

It certainly doesn't help that MSM provides only those opinions that they want you to have. If you want to become educated about how the world works, you have to read subversive literature, such as Federalist Papers and the US Constitution. Then you should read far more to understand what's the difference between "then" and "now." Exposure to foreign cultures and political processes is highly desired, otherwise the chickens will be eagerly voting for Colonel Sanders. (This process can be easily demonstrated by stepping on a garden rake, repeatedly.)

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

You are referring to concept of modern freedoms. These have nothing to do with democracy. If majority views that a type of freedom is offensive to them, they can vote to repel it, or pick representatives that will repel such a freedom. What you're seeing in Turkey is rejection of Western model of secularism which was advocated by Kemal Ataturk (yes, I'm intimately familiar with Turkish history going as far as early Ottoman empire for reasons I would rather not disclose here). Historically, the guardians of these freedoms were the military which had to disband the parliament every time islamists got majority and started to repel secularist freedoms, until recently when majority that didn't want these freedoms voted Erdogan's party into leadership yet again (after it was disbanded several times by military and reformed). Such parliamentary disbands were essentially anti-democratic military coups where democratically elected government was overthrown by powerful military.

Example: US and its current ability to imprison people indefinitely under anti-terrorist laws. After 9/11 enough US people of voting aged judged that freedom to have a fair trial in reasonable amount of time was no longer on the list of freedoms they wish to have. So this freedom was repelled democratically.

There are many similar examples across the world. Turkish situation for last couple of decades at least is essentially a struggle between democratic movement that wants to repel secularist policies and freedoms it deems degenerate and offensive and powerful military that kept overthrowing democratically elected governments every time they tried to repel these freedoms. And now the democratically elected government finally succeeded in reigning military in.

Remember: democracy is not advocacy of freedoms.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

Theocracy is government by religious elite. Representative democracy is government by elected elite.

If religious elite is elected democratically, as has happened in Turkey, theocracy is in fact democratic.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

Aye, just like in the bible and torah. And there are plenty of communities in US that live by same rules.

Did you have a point other then that organized religion with roots in judaism is inherently degenerate from secular point of view of a modern Western citizen? Because we're talking about a completely different topic.

That said if that was your point, I do agree completely.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

I do live and let live. Read the grandparent post.

Unless you view "stating the obvious but inconvenient truth" as "not letting live". In which case, I can't really help you. You need men in white kind of help.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

Start with amish. Continue toward bible belt. Finish in various cults that are now largely left alone in spite of mass rape of little girls because police fear that they will mass suicide in a very public fashion if bothered.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[mrvan]

Political Science is divided on how to define "democracy". At the minimum, it has some reasonably level of suffrage to elect the body or bodies that make generally binding decisions (aka laws). However, many scholars argue that a democracy also requires

This does *not* mean that a law is necessarily based on the (represented) consent of the majority of the population or even of the voting population, as all electoral systems have some sort of misrepresentation of the population, going from the extreme of single member first-past-the post districts (USA, UK) to the most proportional representation of single district PR systems (Netherlands)

Note that democracy is a separate concept from "rule of law", but it is hard to imagine democracy functioning without the rule of law. In essence, the rule of law means that the law also applies to the rulers (and hence to the enforcement agencies). So, the example of a ruler killing people without trial is more of a breach of rule of law than of democracy. Obviously, it is possible to make a law that allows certain people to be killed without a (civil) trial, as is not uncommon in military law or slavery systems, and apparently American citizens with foreign sounding names in the wrong place at the wrong time are also subject to this process...

*) even the Netherlands (generally regarded as the most proportional electoral system) has some misrepresentation because of the granularity of MP seats: votes for parties that don't get a single seat are 'wasted' entirely, and remainders are distributed in a complicated way that can in principle allow a majority in parliament to represent a minority of votes. However, this is nowhere near the level of misrepresentation that can occur in SMD systems (where 26% of the vote can capture 51% of seats) or even worse in multi-party SMD systems with first-past-the-post (plurality), where in theory an infinitismal small amount of votes can capture the majority given infinite contenders -- and in the UK the majority party in parliament frequently had a minority of votes cast for it.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Luckyo]

It has been made pretty clear by historians that everyone was guilty. Serbs were picked as a primary target because of the realpolitik issues - namely weakening Russian influence in Balkans.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[gtall]

The Head of Jordan, King Abdullah, said pretty much this statement when referring to how Erdogan thought of democracy. That was the first instance I'd heard it. I don't know if Erdogan said it first. I cannot imagine someone as slimy as Erdogan would say something like that although I think that is precisely how he thinks.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[rich_hudds]

People forget that the rule of law, a free press and an independent judiciary are all pre-requisites to a functioning democracy.

I'd rather live in a non democratic country that had all of those, such as 19th century England, than in a supposedly democratic country which didn't.

Installing democracy without the necessary counter balances is dangerous.

Re: Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[Fished]

Dude, I could drive a bus through the factual errors in your post. By the fifth century, the Roman Empire had no trace of democracy, it was a brutal dictatorship. Nor did kings have any real restraint in medieval Europe. Not did Islam have its origins in the late Roman Empire - Byzantine, MAYBE, but by the seventh century their control if Arabia was sketchy at best. Nor was Byzantium remotely democratic.

That dog won't hunt, and it's amazing to me that people are actually agreeing with you!

Sources: phd in New Testament and early Christianity, university of Virginia.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[dywolf]

Not a dictator, and he is right in many ways.

so many people use facebook and twitter as an echo chamber, only associating with those with similar views and beliefs, much like normal life, but to a far more extreme degree. in real life you still must interact with those of more rational, or different views. in FB/Twitter you can completely tune it out, and all you get is a constant feeback loop of BS and deception. its actively helping people to become MORE partisan, MORE extremist, LESS rational.

so really, i think he's right.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[bluefoxlucid]

The side-effect of free speech is people are gullible and stupid, and so you can spread lies and half-truths. Manipulation of how you cover issues is a good way to confuse people.

For example, here in my city we had a mayor hire a contractor to run business process analysis on the school system and figure out how they can spend $13,000/student/year and yet have half as many books as they need, no technology in classrooms, decaying desks, underpaid teachers, and a 50% graduation rate. When it came time to elect a new governor for the state, his opponents came out and told everybody that he dared to pay a commercial institution to address the city's school system issues... instead of what, exactly? Bringing in the experts is a bad thing?

Online, free and anonymous speech lets you start slanderous rumors about your government founded on lies and half-truths without paying the price of outright slander. Even offline, you're pretty much allowed to say whatever the hell you want about government in most free-speech nations; that includes slandering your leaders. People take the bait hook, line, and sinker. Now what?

Nothing is without consequence. The consequence of freedom is nobody takes care of you; the consequence of liberty is people do terrible things.

Re:Dictator hating free speech, news at 11.

[dwpro]

At worst you could reasonably claim he's building a theocracy. But theocracy isn't incompatible with democracy in any way

It doesn't matter the form of government if the controls for power are circumvented and the government can impose its will with impunity. Violent repression of dissent, absolute gagging of the media and halting of communications, blatant disregard for equality and minority rights all bear witness that this isn't the will of the governed.

To me...

[AliasMarlowe]

For me, Ergodan sounds likes a real menace to turkish society.

Re:To me...

[Samantha Wright]

He was once jailed for opposing religious extremism (albeit somewhat crudely), ended a war with the Kurds by enacting laws encouraging tolerance, opposes the Syrian regime, and improved relations with Greece. Turkey is bizarro land: the conservatives are interested in relatively secular Westernization, and the force of change it opposes is religious. Even if he's forceful or brutish, I think most people here would actually support him.

Re:To me...

[Somebody Is Using My]

He's just saying aloud what a lot of world leaders are thinking.

The internet has created a revolution in information dispersment. No longer do the the Powers That Be have a lock on the news. Even before the Internet, of course, people could bypass the regime's total control of the media (e.g., Soviet samizdats) but even then distribution issues limited how widely alternate views could be spread. Now, thanks to the Internet, it is cheap and easy for anyone to post information onto the internet, and even easier for other people to read it. This isn't without its own problems - both in the flood of available knowledge and the lack of fact-checking - but on the whole it has radically challenged how regimes control what their populace knows and thinks. And this frightens them incredibly.

Ergodan is just voicing what many other rulers - be they third-world dictators or first-world politicians - believe in their hearts. If they had their way, they'd roll things back to the 1980s, before the Internet revolution threw everything into flux.

Re:To me...

[Samantha Wright]

I apologise for saying that actually; I misread what appeared to be a criticism of radical Islam but was actually an even more extreme endorsement of it:

He was given a ten-month prison sentence (of which he served less than four months, from 24 March 1999 to 27 July 1999)[19] for reciting a poem in Siirt in December 1997, which, under article 312/2 of the Turkish penal code was regarded as an incitement to commit an offense and incitement to religious or racial hatred.[20] It included verses translated as "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...."[8] The aforementioned verses, however, are not in the original version of the poem. The poem was from a work written by Ziya Gökalp, a pan-Turkish activist of the early 20th century.[5] Erdoan claimed the poem had been approved by the education ministry to be published in textbooks.[21] With the conviction, Erdoan was forced to give up his mayoral position. The conviction also stipulated a political ban, which prevented him from participating in parliamentary elections. He completed his sentence on 24 July 1999.

It sounds like a condemnation, but was actually in support of such things.

That all being said, his other policy stances are sufficiently strong that there are apparently many conservatives who support him, but don't fall for the "these are minority groups who are just mad democracy didn't take their side" shtick: he got 34% of the vote, resulting in more than a two-thirds parliamentary majority. Sounds like some serious gerrymandering to me.

Re:To me...

[Samantha Wright]

Pretty much, although note that the Turkish definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" are almost opposites of the values implied by such labels in the US. The Turks are trying to conserve their secular, inclusionist democracy.

Re:To me...

[Smauler]

he got 34% of the vote, resulting in more than a two-thirds parliamentary majority. Sounds like some serious gerrymandering to me.

It's not necessarily gerrymandering - If you're from the US, you're used to a 2 party system. In many countries, there are 4 or 5 parties that get a significant share of the vote. With a representative system, this leads to very skewed results, in some cases. In the UK (and we've only had 3 parties with a decent share for a while), we've had majority governments with about 34% of the vote relatively recently - it's not because of gerrymandering, it's because of representative democracy.

Re:To me...

[Samantha Wright]

Good point—although it still discredits the statement that his opposition is a minority.

Re:To me...

[Xest]

Erm, the BBC has reported all the things you mention so your suggestion that it's one-sided flies in the face of your own post.

I read the BBC as my primary news source with Al Jazeera now and then and the BBC's reporting has been plenty enough to realise that Erdogan is a horrible, horrible, wannabe dictator.

We should all be so lucky...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Is this magical alternate reality where twitter is the most menacing issue of the day accepting applications? It must be pretty nice to have solved so many actual problems!

American News Outlets...

[CohibaVancouver]

Near-revolution brewing in an American ally, and nearly zero mention on the home pages of CNN, Fox or MSNBC.

We now return you to the Kardashians. Sigh.

Re:American News Outlets...

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Near-revolution brewing in an American ally, and nearly zero mention on the home pages of CNN, Fox or MSNBC.

I think you answered your own implied question. Turkey is a designated Good Guy, and therefore this can't possibly be that important. Until and unless they become a designated Bad Guy (which can happen very quickly) in which case this will immediately become a Vital Struggle For Freedom against the Worst Dictatorship In Human History.

Re:American News Outlets...

[houghi]

As extra information: going from designated Good Guy to designated Bad Guy does not need any change or adaption from the designated Guy. It just kinda happens.

Re:American News Outlets...

[khallow]

They are also a needed conter-weight to Iran

And a buffer state for Russia. After all, one of the original Cold War reasons for supporting Turkey was to deny Russia unrestricted access to the Mediterranean.

Dammit...

[ArcadeNut]

Now I have to like Twitter :(

If only he'd said "Facebook" ...

[Daniel Dvorkin]

... he'd have had support from a substantial portion of the Slashdot readership.

Every society...

[Eirenarch]

Every society that can be destroyed by social media should be.

Re:Every society...

[gmuslera]

That means every society. Mass media is tied to mass manipulation too. No country is safe from it, sometimes is their government that does it, sometimes the private sector (from advertising agencies to big corporations), and sometimes foreign government agencies. Why waste soldiers if you can make people from the target country do the dirty work for you? Look what keeps happening in most middle east countries for a practical example.

And if you think the US people is safe from that kind of manipulation, or that only follow what is good for them, remember Boston.

Twitter a menace?

[Anarchduke]

Ha, wait till he visits 4chan

Social media photos of what's happening

[fantomas]

I suppose its only fair to link to some of the social media photos.

Dark days coming for modern Turkish people..

[Anonymous Coward]

Last week, at a metro station in capital city of Turkey, a couple who we were hugging and kissing, warned by officers. Next day, about 50 people protested it, one of them injured with a knife by an extreme islamist.
Today in the same speech with his comments about twitter, to a question about this incident, he replied as "yes, i support officer; people must obey moral rules!"

Re:Dark days coming for modern Turkish people..

[cold fjord]

It is likely that Turks will come to rue the day they departed from the principles of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Kemalism.

Re:Honestly

[Longjmp]

If you disagree, feel free to abuse the mod system and mod me down.

If I hadn't commented already, I would mod you down as troll.
Not because of your opinion, but because you fail to explain why you feel he's right.
Using your karma cushion is a poor example of expressing your opinion.

Re:German guy took part in the protest?

[prefec2]

I do not understand your logic. His family might be still there. He could have many cultural ties to Turkey. And he could have a German and a Turkish passport and therefore be Turkish and German. BTW: There a many bonds between Germany and Turkey, because of the numerous Turkish immigrants in Germany, all the Germans going to Turkey for their holidays, and in addition a lot of economic and trade connections. Turkey is almost a EU member state.

Missing Option: Willful Ignorance

[TheRon6]

Social media is a tool no different than any other tool. People who go out of their way to understand the tools they use rarely encounter problems with them. But like an inexperienced driver climbing behind the wheel after having "only a few" drinks, too many people browse social media sites as if every word is fact, unaware that nearly everything written online should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. But there's no helping people who will believe a FB group about the moon landing being fake while dismissing contradicting posts like this as part of the government cover-up. As long as there are people who thrive in the social experience of collective willful ignorance, every tool can become a menace to society. That doesn't mean we should take them all away.

The Truth is out there

[Chucky_M]

Social Media is a tool that can be used by both sides.

What this guy has done to stop a bunch of people defending a park from destruction deserves prison time but a bigger offense is how little western media is reporting on it as they could have stopped this already. Because of this he will win this battle through force of arms alone, already a number of his people have died hopefully the number will remain low but 1 is already too many.

He will in the end loose the country and be forced to answer for his crimes, the west needs to distance itself from people like this now as perception of full support is a big part of the worldwide problem when it comes to dictators.

It wont happen of course, we great at repeating old mistakes.

Re:To be fair, this is out of context

[prefec2]

He is born in Turkey and migrated to Germany at the age of 14. No doubt he has still strong ties to his old country and feels as much to Turkish as German. Actually why make a big fuss about it? And especially about his nationality. If German laws would not prohibit double nationalities (there are some exceptions), he would be most likely still Turkish and German.

Conservatives loath social networking

[Pecisk]

Because it destroys artifical fabric of society they try to create - as they would have any chance in this. In same time they enjoy their social networks (trough websites and tv) which allows them to live in bubble of selective memory.

Also for what I have heard for last five years, quite big part of Turkish society has all reasons to hate current goverment. Yes, they are democractically elected, but that doesn't mean they can't listen to opposition. They have to - if they want to stay longer in their place.

And using full blown police against peacful protest will fireback any time. Trust me.

Re:German guy took part in the protest?

[Darkness404]

You should have the right to protest whatever regardless of your citizenship. Human rights are still human rights, this idea that we shouldn't care about and we shouldn't (peacefully!) try to do something about X has lead to some of the worst abuses in power in history. We are all humans and it is in all of our best interests that basic rights to self-expression, freedom of religion and the right of self-ownership are protected. Why should I care about sex-slavery in Africa? After all, I don't live in Africa, I'm white and I'm also male. Why should I care about what's happening in Syria? After all, I'm not Islamic and I'm not middle eastern and don't live in Syria. Heck, we can go even further, why should I care about the holocaust? I'm not Jewish, I don't live in Germany. Why should I care about the civil rights movement? I'm not black.

Rights need to be protected no matter who is violating them. The protection of human rights in Turkey is a cause that all liberty-minded individuals need to take note of and support no matter where their geographical location is, what race they are and whatever country you "legally belong to", because what happens to one human, affects us all.

Re:To be fair, this is out of context

[Teun]

How many countries allow foreign nationals to protest against the government of a country for which they are not a citizen?

As long as it is peaceful all civilised countries will allow such or any other protest.

Islamist hating free speech, news at 11.

[sanman2]

And the next step beyond dictatorship will be a Caliphate

Re:Islamist hating free speech, news at 11.

[gtall]

Precisely. The head of Jordan, King Abdullah, gave a wide ranging interview not long ago. He said Morsi of Egypt had no depth (no shit, Dr. Obvious). But he also said Erdogan thinks of Democracy as a bus ride. When he reaches his destination, he'll get off. My guess is that Erdogan will continue to use Democracy to push Turkey into a religious nutjob state, and when the final rebellion takes place, he'll be no better than Assad claiming outside terrorists are undermining Turkey, hence the special Gestapo tactics he'll employ will have been made necessary. History will have produced yet one more religious zealot who thinks everything he does is an extension of the hand of G-d....or Allah...whatever...it doesn't matter which one he invokes...I just hope it isn't the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't want to believe His Noodliness would condone that sort of behavior.

IT IS ON THE MEDIA FUCKING NIMBWITS

[gl4ss]

Near-revolution brewing in an American ally, and nearly zero mention on the home pages of CNN, Fox or MSNBC.

We now return you to the Kardashians. Sigh.

front page of cnn.
front page of bbc.

picture galleries on foxnews. THIS IS THE BIGGEST FUCKING LIE OF THE WEEKEND! THAT THE MEDIA WASN'T COVERING IT! THEY FUCKING ARE!!
the only place where they aren't covering it as much is inside turkey, though even there pm has made statements about it to media.

you know what happens? dimwits read on social media that it's not reported and they don't even fucking check the news! because they don't read the news!

What is happening...

[Fuzzums]

The police is reacting extremely violent in the protests against Erdogan, the Turkish prime Minister. Streets were littered with tear gas canisters. Several people have been killed or shot and who knows how many people are wounded.
In the mean time CNN Turkey is showing a documentary about penguins and also other news organisations in Turkey are ignoring the protests.

Facebook and Twitter do indeed play an important role in the protests. For instance it helps organize medical aid for wounded and communication about the severe cases that need urgent help and need to be transported to a hospital.

Re:Democracy and Republic

[NeutronCowboy]

Lest someone mods you up - you're utterly wrong. Republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic. Democracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy. For some reason, right wingers are pushing this idea, when it is completely, and utterly wrong. Not only that, but it completely muddles the discussion about what makes a dictatorship a dictatorship, what makes a decision by the ruler/ruling party illegitimate but not illegal, etc.

In short, you're creating an ideological environment in which dictatorships are more probably in the US, rather than less.

Re:Well, Turkey's prime minister is correct

[femtobyte]

Twitter is a threat. To repressive government and corporate oppressors everywhere.

That's why, following the introduction of the internet, and later Twitter, we've seen the reversal of upward wealth accumulation and increasing consolidation of corporate power. Oh, wait, that didn't happen: the rich today are richer than ever, and a smaller number of huger than ever global megacorporations control a larger than ever share of everything. Twitter might be helpful in speeding the demise of government oppressors --- but corporate oppressors are their revenue stream and purpose for existence. I wouldn't trust the megacorporate Facebook/Twitter centralized controlled "social media" to be a trustworthy ally against growing corporate oppression --- they want to turn all interpersonal relations/communications into things amenable to profitable megacorporate control.

Its a complicated mess!

[dclydew]

I live in Turkey currently (American living abroad) and its not at all an "Islamic" country. The people are very tolerant of pretty much everything and most (not all) of the Muslims are extremely liberal/secular when compared to many other Islamic social groups. For example, I've seen Imam's, Christian ministers and Jewish rabbis sharing coffee and conversation with each other and a couple of gay men that had nowhere else to sit in the coffee house. Maybe 20% of the women in my area wear headscarves, no burkas or anything like that... and they'll happily have conversations with women in mini skirts and bikinis (hey its a beach town :) ). Most of the Turks drink alcohol, they have some good beers and almost everyone drinks raki (anise liquor). When the mosque calls for prayers, most of the Muslims around here go about their daily life. Many don't ever attend Mosque.

That being said the AKParty acts much like the GOP in the US. They stay in power because there is a strong Anatolian middle class of conservatives and the AKP constantly make noises to maintain their support. A few months ago they made a lot of noise about outlawing abortion, nothing came of it, but the AKP poll numbers went up. The same for the recent anti-alcohol law... "no shop sales after 10 PM and before 6 AM" but you can still go to restaurants and bars with no problem until 5 AM or whenever they finally close.

While the CHP (the left wing, secularist) party is setting itsself up as the 'secular' alternative to the AKP... they tend to be ultra nationalists. The military has, more than once overthrown the government via a coup and taken control of the country, because the military didn't like the way the government was acting. The CHP tend to be Kemalists (following Ataturks views), but they have a pretty poor track record with other kinds of human rights. Kurds, for example, were treated worse under the CHP and military lead governments than under the AKP. The CHP would have no problem jailing people for speaking against Ataturk or Turkey... and actually kicked an author out of the country for writing a book that included support for the claim that the Ottomans in the beginning off the 20th century were responsible for the Armenian genocide (the nationalist position is that it was a war and lots of people on both sides died).

For some the AKP has provided more freedom. For example, until recently, women were not allowed to wear the headscarf in public institutions (schools, colleges, etc.) and women who kept the headscarf had many fewer job options.

Basically the situation in Turkey is a question of balancing extremism on both sides of governance with the more moderate public. There is no simple answer.