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Managing an Elite eSport Team

Posted by samzenpus on from the icing-thumbs dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Ever wondered what it takes to run a world class stable of pro-gamers? In a new profile, 4Kings general manager Jason Potter takes the time to explain his duties — they're remarkably like what's required of other sports managers. It's up to Potter to manage a team of FPS gamers scattered across the continent, getting them to events, arranging sponsorship, and even making sure they play nice together. 'It's a 24 hour job,' Potter says. 'If there is something that needs to be done, you do it.'"

163 comments

  1. I was born in the wrong era... by GregC63 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I still find it difficult to believe someone can get paid for gaming...

    1. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How do you feel about people getting paid for playing other games?

      It seems people who are good at playing games is already common. There are leagues for all kinds of games. A lot of it is even aired on TV.

    2. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Antipater · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People got paid to play chess even in your day. What's the difference?

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    3. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Jstlook · · Score: 1

      New world problems.

      --
      ---jstlook ---For that is the way of Elves, for they say both yes AND no, and mean every word of it. --- J.R.R.T.
    4. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Really? Where are you from? I grew up seeing it happen, and my parents tell me that it was going on since LONG before they were born. I know it seems odd, even more odd that some of them command salaries that put them strongly at major CEO levels.

      Surely you have run into this phenomenon, you have heard of Michael Jordan? The guy didn't just get paid for gaming, he got endorsement deals for shoes and other merchandise.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    5. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      I agree, getting paid for playing games is rather mind boggling. Do you know that people get paid for playing baseball?

    6. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      I have a hard time seing organizing a community that looks down on "tryhards".

      --
      THL phish sticks
    7. Re: I was born in the wrong era... by mumblestheclown · · Score: 1

      You phrased it wrong, which is why so many geniuses are replying with things like "i camt believe people get paid for playing baseball."

      Nws flash: they dont get paid for playing baseball. They get paid for putting paid butts in seats. So, basically, i fully agree with the sentiment that i am amazed that there are people who would pay to put their butt in some seat to watch somebody play a video game, no matter how good that person may or may not be. Would i look in on a very good player? Maybe for a few minutes, sure, just like id look in on a good mime. However, i cant see myself ever paying to watch video gaming or buying a product because it was endorsed by such a "pro." Ymmv.

    8. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      How do you feel about stock brokers and actors and baseball (insert other silly kid's game that people take way too seriously) players ?

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    9. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easier words to comprehend: Performers, athletes, you could even stretch to "gladiators".

      Though I personally don't find these or more traditional sports all that fascinating.

    10. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by icebike · · Score: 0

      I agree, getting paid for playing games is rather mind boggling. Do you know that people get paid for playing baseball?

      And there it is! The false analogy. Flopped out on the floor like a dead fish.

      Baseball, and virtually all pro sports have audiences that pay to attend, advertising deals, television deals, and ongoing source of income.

      First Person Shooter games? Not so much.

      When did you ever see advertising for such an event, a paying audience, a loyal fanbase, TV coverage?
      Most gaming events of this nature are more akin to self supporting bingo games where all of the money comes from
      the entrance fees by the players themselves. The only people watching are those trounced in the first scrimmage.

      The use of the term "Pro" is pretty ridiculous for someone living in his parents basement.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    11. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by devman · · Score: 1

      It's easy to design computers that are good (or even close to perfect) at FPS, that's why IBM doesn't need to invest in it. I'm not sure what IBM's investment decisions have to do with anything though, are they the deciders of whats a valid mental challenge?

    12. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The number of people who actually make a true living playing chess (and they still get paid today to do so) is really small.

      So is the number of people who make a living for playing video games.

      But I see a difference between getting paid to be good at a mentally challenging game and being good at playing a game where you "blow stuff up".

      Why? FPS playing is a combination of physical and intellectual skill (mechanical skill at actually shooting the enemy, and intellectual at outplaying them by finding better positioning and out-maneuvering them). If anything, the fact that eSports is more heavily reliant on physical skills makes it vastly less surprising that they'd get paid for it, considering all the people who play conventional sports professionally.

      Then tell me, exactly how many millions of dollars has IBM or a similar company invested to design a computer that can beat the best human players at what 4Kings plays?

      None, for the same reason IBM hasn't invested millions in a baseball playing robot. Chess is an interesting mathematical problem, and the question of how much computer power is required to beat a human consistently is an interesting question in the area of intelligence and AI theory. The actual game in question is practically irrelevant. Chess was chosen because it's fairly popular and extremely thoroughly studied, which not being so complex as to overwhelm any current computer (unlike Go, for example).

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    13. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by devman · · Score: 1

      There are big purse events that are usually invitationals with corporate sponsors and not "pay to play".

    14. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Antipater · · Score: 2
      I don't know about whatever game that 4Kings plays. However, League of Legends has a functioning league, complete with player salaries, endorsement deals, ads, and yes, a large and loyal viewer audience. And don't get me started on the Koreans.

      The "akin to bingo" system is true when there's no audience. But as gaming grows more mainstream, the audience comes with it. With the audience come all the other bells and whistles you mentioned with regard to baseball.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    15. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I will help you understand. If people are willing to pay to watch something or a company thinks that having this person use their products gets them more sales you will get paid. Doesn't matter what you do.

      The mental strain or whether *you* appreciate it or not is irrelevant.

      Basic economy, if people find what you do entertaining you might even get paid.

    16. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      You've never actually seen a gaming event, have you? I can assure you, there are people paying to see MLG events, there is a loyal fanbase, there is (internet) TV coverage (people pay for the HD version of that too). There are sponsorships from large corporations, too.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    17. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there is the ignorance. FPS-games have all that. Or there would be no pros. There are just fewer and less of everything. Which doesnt stop some of them making. Some of them live in their parents basements. But then again, most 17 year olds do.

    18. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Synerg1y · · Score: 2

      Starcraft's GSL league had it's own channel in S. Korea.

      As far as American culture goes, you're right though, I watched a Halo tourney once and couldn't finish it because it was just well... boring. Playing Halo = fun, watching "pro's" play it = boring. Some Starcraft games were fun to watch on youtube back when I played it.

      They also have several major multi-game pro-gaming tournaments. People show up to those like to events such as comic con for example.

      I think, it's got a future small time, but will never go maintstream like say baseball and football.

      Obligatory analogy: football player vs pro-gamer in rugby action.

    19. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, there's plenty of advertising for Dreamhack.

      CS:GO is televised, as is Starcraft II. Pricesums etc come from sponsors. Players at the top level are salaried, either full-time or part-time, teams just below that level still receive sponsorship for travels etc.

      Oh, you're in the US? Well, that scene is FUCKED, because people there feel that they shouldn't train before they have sponsorships. Add to that the fact that you have teams like Evil Geniuses, which is a pure entertainment company. They are always waiting for "someone big" to create a scene, instead of starting it up themselves. They are continually making up excuses about why there can't be LAN scenes around the US, neglecting the fact that California alone, which is somewhat smaller than Sweden, has more than 3 times the population, yet can't maintain a LAN scene because of that laziness.

    20. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Antipater · · Score: 2

      But I see a difference between getting paid to be good at a mentally challenging game and being good at playing a game where you "blow stuff up".

      And there's your problem. You don't understand the competition involved. Gaming can be "challenging", both mentally and physically. Is it as mentally challenging as chess? Well, that's a topic ripe for debate, given the amount of strategy and improvisation involved in many multiplayer games. Is it as physically demanding as football or boxing or any other athletic activity? No, but then neither is skeet shooting, which many also consider a sport.

      Anyway, the whole point boils down to the question: are people willing to watch someone else engage in an activity? Competitive chess? Yes. Competitive crocheting? Probably not. Competitive gaming? Apparently so. If you don't like it, why do you care?

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    21. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by flayzernax · · Score: 2

      Even nightmare bots that have all the aimbot data on you are able to be killed.

      But people like Esports for the intellectual interaction between one or more players and the game. If you think winning consistently against skilled CTF'ers is easy. I say go play quake live in a pro clan. Heck get recruited first. To a real pro clan.

      Though I wager IBM can make some pretty brutal AI. And even simplistic AI can overwhelm individual humans in swarms with ease (such that it is dumbed down to kindergarten level in most games on purpose).

      Even the simple AI of Everquest was nerfed repeatedly from alpha, to beta, to expansion after expansion until it was meaningless. If you read about the tests the developers did though, they had a lot of fun. And at release the interaction between different AI's in the world made the game interesting and somewhat thought provoking. And EQ was a SIMPLE game.

      I eagerly await that game with brutal AI that takes years of training and experimentation and a dedicated team to "game". Nothing beats real life yet though.

    22. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Then tell me, exactly how many millions of dollars has IBM or a similar company invested to design a computer that can beat the best human players at what 4Kings plays? Yeah, I thought so.

      I imagine IBM & others have spent zero dollars because hackers and modders have already done the work for them.
      For a FPS bot, you don't even need a good AI, just situational awareness and pixel perfect aim.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    23. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      It's easy to design computers that are good (or even close to perfect) at FPS

      I have to disagree; while it might be trivial to design the AI to take advantage of being part of the computer (i.e., able to read plot data on player position, take advantage of the physics properties of weapons/environment), I'm hard pressed to believe there is a method of programming AI intelligently, where it could outmaneuver highly skilled human players on an equal playing field, without cheating (doing things and having knowledge of programming variables the human player couldn't possibly do or know).

      Notably, humans have a power that no existing computer can compete with nor compensate for: the ability to act with complete, true randomness.

      That said, I'd love to see some research or experimentation regarding the topic.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    24. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by robthebloke · · Score: 1

      The quality of some of the games being played? Chess takes skill, and a bit of dastardly cunning. There are a few computer games I've played where the gameplay can become akin to a high speed game of chess once both players are seriously good (Streetfighter 2 - alpha 3, springs to mind). However, on the whole, most games just aren't that challenging, and often luck and net latency are the biggest deciding factors in who wins (and I say this as a game developer myself). Then of course, if you mention computer games these days, pay to win gaming (a.k.a. freemium) is usually mentioned soon afterwards. Other than being impressed anyone could put up with those cynical money grabbing efforts for more than 2 seconds, let alone 17 months, there really isn't anything remotely skill based within those games now is there?

      The other interesting thing about chess, is that it has rules, and those rules are constant and universal (and you can usually say that of any sport, other than maybe Formula 1). It's not that often that you wake up, turn on your chess board, and a new patch has updated the rules of the game. It's not often, that you play a game of chess, and discover that you can shoot the head off the queen because you've found a bug in the collision data that allows you to fire a missile through a wall. So I think it's highly unlikely that computer games will ever be recognised as being "a fair game", in the same way that Chess is. So, good luck to those people if they're being paid money to play those games. Just don't expect me, or the majority of people in the world, to ever take them all that seriously....

    25. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are nuts.

      http://tournaments.leagueoflegends.com/s3-eu-qualifiers

      Paying audience to several tournaments in several places in the world all year long? Check
      Loyal fanbase? Check
      TV Coverage? ... kind of. All of the events are streamed and also later rebroadcast.

      These guys are flying all over the world 6 or so times a year, practicing strats and mechanics for 8-16 hours a day, etc. They have sponsorship, and streaming ad revenue as well.

      On the *low* end, those guys are making $150,000 a year. On the high end? Closer to $250,000 if they are winning several tournies a year.

      The old stats: http://majorleagueoflegends.s3.amazonaws.com/lol_infographic.png

      70 million registered players
      32 million unique players playing every month
      12 million players a day
      3 million peak players at once

    26. Re: I was born in the wrong era... by neonKow · · Score: 1

      People also pay to watch people pretend to be other people every week. I don't see anyone questioning TV actors and actresses getting paid.

      And marketing is a finickey science. I may not buy something simply because a pro endorsed it, but I could easily see why associating a player/actor I like with a product could make it stand out among a line of 10 other ones. Then, when I go consider which one to buy, it's quite likely that it would be one of the 3-5 products I consider (as I probably won't compare all 10 products). If the product is good, an endorsement could certainly bring it the exposure it needs to succeed over another quality product.

    27. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      A lot of it comes down to how fast and how accurately you can move the mouse and how quickly you could press the keys and buttons. If you made the requirement that any computer cotrolled player had to give their input through the mouse and keyboard using robotic hands, and only seeing through cameras, you would probably have a decent competition. But that's only because we don't really have robotics that are as precise as human hands. The computer would be easier to hook up to a trackball, and would probable be easier to program for than a mouse that had to be picked up and put back on a mouse pad every few seconds. If however, you let the computer "play" by sending direct inputs, even just via the USB/PS2 by being directly wired into the other computer, then the computer would win every time, as it would always aim perfectly, and never misstep.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    28. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      Wrong, humans do not act in true randomness. Humans act in what you conceive as true randomness. Humans always do what they are biased to do, even when random. To get a human to do a true random event you need to use another tool, like coin flip or some machine.

      I also think your argument is kind of ludicrous... BECAUSE... the game is one big AI. The fact you can beat the AI does not mean you are actually better than the AI. It means that the game developers let you win so that you would not get down when your ass is constantly whooped!

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    29. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't have any research. But the issue with modern AI is that for non-initiated players it is too good. The more skilled players result to more exploitive means to defeat really good AI. This assumes even player and AI balance.

      AI that is good is AI that can see you if you have line of sight. Targets as accurately as the player. Can form up squads and flank. Can call in buddies from other parts of a level. And can swarm or interact with other AI, like avoiding hostile AI's while in combat with a player or responding. Thats as good as it gets. But it hasn't really been put into any mass produced games. Also running when injured to get help from other AI.Also good AI is able to use complex inventories and abilities fairly reliability. I have seen each aspect but never in combination.

      Things that make a good AI in a modern game (never saw these implemented in a single game toghether).

      Can see player with line of sight.
      Can evaluate if player is a good target.
      Can engage player or stalk player, related to previous. (There is a mod that causes creepers in minecraft to run away and hide if the player spots them)
      Runs when attacked or low on health to allies. (Everquest)
      Interacts with other hostile AI's either attacking or avoiding.
      Will form squads and formations with other AI. Even providing cover.
      Able to communicate to other AI it's combat state and allow other AI to join in attacking the player or flanking.
      Paths to power ups and resources in an efficient manner. A lot of that is not AI though.
      Good path-finding, this is hard to implement and sometimes the bugs and randomness can be better than any code could be. (I would say this is the weakest area)
      Good and intelligent use of special abilities and powerups. Chain abilities. All these things are programaticle in nature. Ever been rooted, dotted snared, and than nuked to death by a shaman or druid mob? Support AI would aid allied AI always more efficiently than humans. And works quite well when set up right.

      That list above is the best I have seen. Unfortunately never combined into one game.

      If AI waits hidden behind cover for players to make the mistake of leaving cover without their own cover fire. The game is considered boring and not "fun". However this is realistic. And never implemented. It is easy to program though. Some games have a small bit of this. But the enemies always start out in the open and reset back to an "un-alerted state". Such as Dues Ex:HR. Were I would occasionally get tagged by enemies for being impatient and playing like a standard FPS instead of a simulation.

      Many times for linear "encounter based" level design, an AI that goes straight for the target is all thats necessary to defeat players.

    30. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      eehhhh.... Do you understand the theory of AI?

      A baseball robot would be pretty straight forward because the depth of the look ahead is not that crazy. What makes chess so difficult are its combinations and permutations. There is rarely a game with some many permuations. This means to win chess you need to be able to prune the tree to win. But how does one prune and optimize? That is the question and a rather difficult question. Chess is a form of poker for intellectuals.

      When you have FPS games the depth of logic needed to win is not that deep. There are not that many options. Think about how the games are all AI backed and if the game designers wanted they could make the game unwinable. However they don't because that would kind of suck.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    31. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who's played games on TV... Actually if you hit gaming focused sites, you'll see all of the above. Apparently it's a big deal in parts of asia, where as basketball doesn't seem all that popular in all parts of the world either, so it's probably somewhat an apt comparision if you open your mind to the world outside of the USA #1 attitude. :p

    32. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      Ok you got me, challenging "physically". Really how? Are they running on some excercise machine? For otherwise it is not challenging physically. BTW skeet shooting a sport? Many people would says, ehhh maybe not...

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    33. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your virginity is astounding.

    34. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      You missed on small point. Perception. Some people are better at it than others. And games that play on perception can be fun.

    35. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      When did you ever see advertising for such an event, a paying audience, a loyal fanbase, TV coverage?

      South Korea is where it hit critical mass with every one of those elements first, some time ago. Very few cared about basketball until about 50 or so years ago, and hockey wasn't popular in the US until after the Miracle on Ice in 1980. All popular sports start somewhere.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    36. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      BTW, it took the NBA 14 years to land a season TV deal after they formed the league. Multi-player FPS games didn't even exist until 1996, much less professional leagues around the genre.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    37. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Antipater · · Score: 1

      You would say "ehh, maybe not", and others would not. Hence my other point - if you don't think it's a sport, don't watch it.

      As for physically challenging, do you consider fast-twitch reflexes to be physical attributes? Gamers spend hours a day honng their reflexes. No, it's not a test of brute strength, but it still counts.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    38. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by cp5i6 · · Score: 1

      You are clearly mistaken

      and has been proven that it is entirely possible with today's technology to walk down near every path of a chess game. "Thinking" in this case is merely a parlor trick of computation power of decision trees.

      As OP posted, if a computer can play a proper game of Go against an expert, then i'd be impressed.

      But until then, his comment is pretty spot on.

    39. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm actually married with 3 children, ages 2, 5, and 13.

      Your ignorance is astounding.

    40. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have always found it difficult to believe someone can get paid for playing professional sports. Talk about a useless profession.

    41. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Antipater · · Score: 1
      And the "most games" that you're describing wouldn't have pro scenes. AFAIK there are no professional angry birds players out there. The latency argument is why most of the big-name events are done over a LAN rather than the internet.

      As for patching, I don't see how that's a bad thing. Different, yes. Personally, I like that games have become dynamic. Chess hasn't changed in hundreds of years, and so its strategies are pretty well thought out by this point. The grandmasters of today simply build on the grandmasters of previous centuries. With a dynamic game, older strategies may or may not still be relevant, based on how the rules have changed. Improvisation takes a much larger role, and new strategies are constantly being developed. You may think that makes the game worse - I like it better. But in the end it's just a different style of game.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    42. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      and has been proven that it is entirely possible with today's technology to walk down near every path of a chess game

      No, no it hasn't. The number of moves playable in a game keeping the game under 40 moves is ~10^43. It is estimated that the total amount of moves past that is 10^10^50. This is more than atoms in the universe (~10^80)

      http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Chess.html

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    43. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are spot on. Except for the plethora of gaming competitions that people buy tickets to attend (not to play), that have corporate sponsorships, Youtube deals, and advertising usually on their clothing.

      In other words, just because you have not witnessed something does not mean others haven't.

    44. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AIs in real time strategy games are a point of interest. There was an entire tournament where AIs fought against each other in Starcraft Brood War.

      http://eis.ucsc.edu/StarCraftAICompetition

      They were good but still could never beat a good human opponent. (IIRC the best AIs were something like Cs or Ds in ICCup, far from the best.)

    45. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obligatory The Far Side comic

    46. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      Subject: Re: calories burned by thinking
      Answered By: omnivorous-ga on 31 Jul 2004 04:14 PDT

      Nordie2 --

      In 1986, researchers isolated both the "at rest" and "active"
      consumption of calories in the brain. Since then we've learned quite
      a bit about brain activities, particularly as PET scans have been
      applied to monitor glucose consumption in the brain.

      As a result, we know lots of things, including that:
      * energy consumption in the brain is related to learning. In other
      words, once you've learned something (like mastering that chess game),
      the energy consumption goes down.

      * energy consumption in the brain is more than two times higher for
      children under age 4. This is no surprise because they are learning
      and building brain structure. The brain's energy consumption levels
      around age 10 to 12.

      Wayne State University
      "Brain Surges," (DiCresce, undated)
      http://www.med.wayne.edu/wayne%20medicine/wm97/brain.htm

      * IQ can effect energy consumption. After learning a task, lower IQ
      people have to exert more energy to complete a task than high IQ
      people who have learned the same task.

      ENERGY CONSUMPTION
      =====================

      Energy consumption by the brain is 230-247 calories, based on 17
      calories/gram and human brain sizes of 1,350-1,450 grams. During
      periods of peak performance, adults increase that energy consumption
      by up to 50%, according to psychology lecturer Mark Moss, of the
      University of Northumbria.

      While this may not seem an extraordinary amount of energy, the brain
      may use 30% of a body's total energy, while being only 2?3% of total
      body mass.

      Moss cites the original 1986 work of Siebert, Gessner, and Klasser on
      the energy supply of the central nervous system in his thesis. The
      thesis, particularly the chapter 1 introduction, is a good and not
      overly technical discussion of what we know about brain activity,
      including descriptions of how PET scans are being used to monitor
      glucose consumption in the brain. I've linked the first chapter:

      University of Northumbria
      "Oxygen Administration, Cognitive Performance and Physiological Responses,"
      (Mark C. Moss, PhD Thesis 1999)
      http://psychology.unn.ac.uk/mark/chapter1/chap1.htm

      Google search strategy:
      learning + "glucose consumption" + calories
      "size of human brain"

      Best regards,

      Omnivorous-GA

      http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=381608

    47. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Narishma · · Score: 1

      But I see a difference between getting paid to be good at a mentally challenging game and being good at playing a game where you "blow stuff up".

      Games where you "blow stuff up" can be just as mentally challenging as chess.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    48. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a man... does having 3 children that you raise actually prove you're not a virgin?

    49. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine, forget about FPS games then. Have a look at any modern RTS. Chess is like tic tac toe compared to analyzing the gameplay in them.

    50. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok you got me, challenging "physically". Really how? Are they running on some excercise machine? For otherwise it is not challenging physically.

      Have you heard the expression APM? Probably not, from the pixels in your post I can tell that you don't know much about eSport.
      It is short for Actions Per Minute. Casual Starcraft players often have an average APM around 50 while a professional is in the range of 300. The very best can average at 400 with a peak at 800.
      If you watch any tournament you will see that players have to warm up and stretch to be able to keep playing through the tournament.
      Sadly some players practice a bit too much and because of this arm injuries like RSI and CTS is very common.

      I doubt that you even know anyone with the correct muscle set and stamina to compete at professional level and that is just the physical part, the players also have to maintain concentration and make the right decisions through a game where a single missclick or one second too slow reaction can cost them the game.
      Now add the stress of 100000 viewers and a price money difference of $15000 and you not only have to perform physically but you also have to perform your best mentally while doing so.

    51. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > How do you feel about people getting paid for playing other games?

      Largely a waste of money.

      Society would rather be entertained for a few few minutes/hours rather then give a shit about investing in the future of its country (children) by supporting the most important people in any society: Teachers and fix a broken indoctrination system.

      i.e.
      http://johntaylorgatto.com/underground/

      --
      Only Cowards use Censorship

    52. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because you do not know what sports is. Or you ignore it to allow your belief.

      It's a competitive hobby with enough casual interest that it can be used to facilitate advertisement.
      The hobby itself doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's kicking a ball, moving pieces of wood on a board or controlling a game client.
      It only matters that there's enough people who want to tune in and watch it, so advertisement can be peddled.

      It's not really complicated. You don't pay the player because he's good at his hobby. Why would you ever do that? It's not even a remotely tangible good that can be sold. What are you gonna do with a good football kick? Bottle it and sell it at 4.95 per drink? No, it's only entertainment. It's the idea that that single kick matters. That's what attracts people. That's what makes your product valuable to advertisers.

    53. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go play Quake for half a year and then come back once you know something.

      No sport is to be taken seriously. It's just a sport. It doesn't matter, all sport is entertainment. It does not produce any goods or anything of value other than viewers you can peddle advertisement to.

      The financial structure, the money flow, is the same in just about every sport, including e-sports. Enough casuals want to watch the pro's play , so they tune in, making the broadcast more valuable to advertisers.
      Now insert whatever kind of competitive hobby you want.

    54. Re: I was born in the wrong era... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > I don't see anyone questioning TV actors and actresses getting paid.

      Riiight, because no one has ever questioned how the majority of society pseudo-lives through a fake virtual life (TV/Movies) instead of focusing on a living real one.

    55. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Molt · · Score: 1

      Computers can pick totally random numbers, they're called TRNGs (True Random Number Generator) it's a basic requirement of a lot of cryptographic systems as any bias significantly weakens the system. The example Tepples posted with the least significant bit of an audio source is one example, another common one is the thermal noise from measuring temperatures of internal components. If for some reason a machine needs a lot of random numbers, more than these common sources can provide in a given time, then there are actually radioactive decay based random number generators available for computers- set it so there's a 50% chance of a GM tube detecting a decay event in a given (short) time and enjoy some true quantum random numbers, or just have a lot of thermal noise sensors in a single device..

      Have a look at any of the discussions about how /dev/random works, or have a read of Random.org

      Humans on the other hand can't produce truly random behavior, or at least that's the result of most studies- both clinical and ad hoc. Have a look at Is 17 the most random number? where people were asked to pick a number between 1 and 20. Our brains may actually have a mechanism to choose a totally random outcome from a series of possibilities, there's a lot of uncertainty still on how the brain works at the most fundamental levels, but trying to consicously choose a random decision involves filtering through all of the personal and cultural biases into the conscious mind it's nowhere near random. "A number from one to twenty? Hmm. Eight. Hold on, no, I live at number eight, and have been thinking about going home. Must remember to buy milk. Twenty? Too obvious, it's the top and is a crit on a d20 in D&D, everyone'll choose that. Nineteen? Bah, only thinking of that because I can't use twenty. Thirteen? Well, it would show that I'm not superstitious but it's still too obvious. I'll go for seventeen, no one will choose that!"

      --
      404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
    56. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      I beat this game. And gave a truly random answer to my youtube watching friend. 1st time. It was not a common number. I think some peoples states of minds can be set. Or I'm just a genetically engineered mutant. But yeah... you can generate a random number if you let the universe help. Requires a bit of insanity though.

      But is humanity as a whole random... what about your neighborhood, or the nation, now thats a question... how random is the universe... badum tish...

      Well I will say that randomness lies in perception. Since the idea of random is a human construct. We have no external conscious reference for "random".

      I would say my definition of random is: Sufficiently unpredictable by a model (analog or digital) or algorithm. And you are totally correct by that definition. People are hardly random. Most of the time... (cue creepy jaws music).

      You probably could predict at least a post like this. But could you predict how it was assembled... no that is truly random =) Well you could predict that it would be assembled with letters, or electrons stored on a device and delivered by signals. But the way in which all those things are assembled. Pretty random, still nope. Probably because its based on a system with rules we all understand. Our definition of truly random than is bound by our understanding of things.

    57. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by GregC63 · · Score: 1

      About the same... ;-)

    58. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Competitive gaming is not against AI...

      An FPS requires loads of logic and knowledge of human behavior in certain circumstances. Sure when you play against the computer this is less, but these people competitively playing don't play against the computer.

      So an FPS requires reflexes and quick thinking. So does chess if you play on a timer.

      You can nerf chess to be unwinnable too simply by taking away every piece but the king. So that argument is pointless...

    59. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there it is! The false analogy. Flopped out on the floor like a dead fish.

      Baseball, and virtually all pro sports have audiences that pay to attend, advertising deals, television deals, and ongoing source of income.

      Yes, there it is. eSports have all those.

      When did you ever see advertising for such an event, a paying audience, a loyal fanbase, TV coverage?

      eSport sponsors include companies like Intel, Razer, Red Bull, Samsung and often whatever ISP is large in the players home country.
      Here is some audience Dreamhack Winter Audience
      Next Dreamhack event will be held just shy of two weeks (I saw the advertising.) and it will be televised.

      Interesting tidbit: At the eSport conference at Dreamhack Valencia a representative from CBSi claimed that eSport generates more viewer minutes every month than Super Bowl.

    60. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by eennaarbrak · · Score: 1

      Baseball, and virtually all pro sports have audiences that pay to attend, advertising deals, television deals, and ongoing source of income. First Person Shooter games? Not so much.

      You fail to understand your own logic. If there was no money coming into the system, there would be no money to pay the players with.

      Economics 101.

    61. Re:I was born in the wrong era... by DKlineburg · · Score: 1

      I am not good at SC2. I played some ladder and after a short time felt mentally exhausted. And to keep up the must look at mini map, must look at where my screen is, must look at my production tab, must give inputs, there is a lot going on. I guess were arguing physically, but I have to say it is interesting to me. I am sure there are a lot out there, but watch HDstarcraft on YouTube. He casts games, as any game caster would. I don't know the world top now, but if you watch real good zerg players it is crazy.

      The zerg move as a swarm you would see in real life, and you have to realize this is going on while the play managers new units, mining, expansions, and a lot of time multiple battles.

      2cp

      --
      Memory is deceptive because it is colored by today's events. - Albert Einstein
  2. Sports.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know about anyone else, but I find watching "esports" about as dull as watching real sports.

    To each their own..

    1. Re:Sports.. by alen · · Score: 1

      for baseball you have to know what some of the stats mean, especially the newer sabermetric ones

      the cool moments are watching a pitcher who gives up around 1.2 guys on base per inning allow bases loaded and then a grand slam
      or a pitcher who makes $20 MILLION a year but has been average for most of his 7 year contract go out and save a team's play off hopes by giving up a few runs against the statistically top team in baseball

    2. Re:Sports.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All I see when I watch pro sports is a massive waste of time, money, and worst of all the waste of youth.

      If we spent 10% on actual eduction of what is spent to indoctrinate young kids in to the cult of pro sports we'd be having this conversation from the orbit of Alpha Centauri.

    3. Re:Sports.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, I'm confused. The way you said all that, makes it sound like the pitcher and the batter are on the same team. Unless I'm really in the dark regarding the terminology here.

      "Bases loaded" means there is a person on each base, and "grand slam" is a home run with the bases loaded, right? Unless the pitcher is trying to make that happen, saying the pitcher "allowed" it seems odd.

      And "giving up a few runs" means the pitcher let the team at bat get some points, right? So unless the pitcher is also on the team at bat, I'm having a hard time understanding how that would "save [the pitcher's] team's play off hopes". You did mean the pitcher's team there, right?

  3. I thought you just had to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...make sure they had a working internet connection, and feed them M&Ms and Buzz cola or whatever it is these kids run on.

    1. Re:I thought you just had to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah but saying that would make it harder to justify publicity whoring and taking a cut.

      Agents are the same leeches in any industry.

      Also "sport" lol.

    2. Re:I thought you just had to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are physically incapable of keeping up with the more demanding games. And I dont mean doing everything right, I am pretty sure you would not even be able to perform enough actions of any kind, let alone appropriate ones. Also, even a minor team like 4kings probably shows up to events on 3 continents every year.

    3. Re:I thought you just had to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why do you assume all games have APM as a vital metric? there's more out there than Starcraft and HoN, you korean-pony-with-blinders you.

  4. Sponsored story by Animats · · Score: 1

    This is not a story. It's an ad for one of the older energy drinks.

  5. Electricity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't have electricity in North Korea, you insensitive clod!

    Send from my iPhone 4.

  6. Esport? by Holi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What the hell is an esport?

    You mean gaming? Because gaming is not a sport no matter how you try and word it.

    --
    Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    1. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's funny you should word it that way, since dictionaries and such mark "sport" and "game" as synonymous.

    2. Re:Esport? by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Challenge accepted. Wikipedia entry on sports: Sport is generally recognised as activities based in physical athleticism or physical dexterity. Wikipedia entry on dexterity: the coordination of small muscle movements which occur in body parts such as the fingers, usually in coordination with the eyes. Moving a mouse, clicking a keyboard, and using a controller all require dexterity. Therefore, gaming can be considered a sport. You can also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport#Definition

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    3. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right...hence...the new word...esport. In this way, people are alerted to the fact that it is distinct from sports.

    4. Re:Esport? by Njovich · · Score: 1

      All sports are a game no matter how you try and word it.

      And there is a bunch of computer games that should qualify for being a sport in terms of physical skill required, competitiveness and sometimes even physical stamina more than a whole bunch of olympic sports.

    5. Re:Esport? by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      Personally, I look at how much training is required to compete among the elite of the sport, and how far off from the elite the average player is. For games like Golf, its amazing how much better the pros are than the average Joe who goes golfing every weekend. Most golfers will never break 100, which puts them about 28 above par. Which is just dismal. Compare that with something like darts, billiards, or bowling, where it's not uncommon to see a "pefect game". To me, the whole concept of an achievable perfect game means that the game/sport isn't difficult enough.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:Esport? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

      All sports are a game no matter how you try and word it.

      But all games are not a sport, no matter how you try to justify it.

    7. Re:Esport? by robthebloke · · Score: 2

      ..... and some people think 'sport' involves shooting the brain out of a helpless fox with a bloody big rifle (having ridden a horse for a number of miles, whilst following the pack of hunting dogs you set on the fox earlier that morning). To me, there is a difference between 'sport' and sport, and I'd say that e-sports is definitely a 'sport'.

    8. Re:Esport? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia entry on sports: ...

      If you are trying to justify your assertion by quoting Wikipedia entries, you've lost the debate before you even started.

    9. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you expand your horizon, you'll see that no one in bowling, darts or billiards has a perfect season of only perfect games, much less a perfect career of only perfect seasons. If someone can score a perfect game, that just means your horizon for the period over which to evaluate a player is too small. This is a recurring concept. Poker is a game of skill, but not if you look at just one game - you have to play many games before skill matters much. Repeated games makes perfection impossible and it exposes skill.

    10. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your dictionary implies Scrabble is a form of sport, you need a larger dictionary.

    11. Re:Esport? by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      To be fair, there is a physicality to riding around on a horse. Although most people would consider foxhunting an activity, rather than a sport, it certainly is more of a sport than video games.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    12. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    13. Re:Esport? by Njovich · · Score: 1

      You say: all games are not a sport

      Football is a game.

      Football is a sport.

      Boom you are wrong.

      I guess you meant not all games are a sport? Did I claim otherwise?

    14. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because random uncited opinion is so much better?

    15. Re:Esport? by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      I always thought of it like this. No ball/no finish line...no sport. But I am not a snob about it...or at least I don't think I am. I am not passing judgement on anyone's pastimes...that just makes the most sense to me. (Ball and finish line has a very wide meaning here.) Something can be a game and be just as difficult or require just as much/more mental discipline.

    16. Re:Esport? by Holi · · Score: 1

      Your logic is broken

      No all sports are not games.
      and not all sports are games.

      A marathon is not a game but it is most certainly a sport.

      Monopoly is a game but in no way is it a sport.

         

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    17. Re:Esport? by Holi · · Score: 1

      Very wrong. for team sports maybe, but try and claim running is a game.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    18. Re:Esport? by Holi · · Score: 1

      >No all sports are not games.
      >and not all sports are games

      Think I may have screwed that one up.
      Not all sports are games and not all games are sports.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    19. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought of it like this.

      No ball/no finish line...no sport.

      Badminton has neither but is most definitely a sport.

    20. Re:Esport? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      If you flat out deny wikipedia as a possible source YOU have lost the debate already.

      --
      Good-bye
    21. Re:Esport? by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      I prefer the word 'ePenis' instead of 'eSports' because it more accurately describes the situation:
          Somebody's over inflated sense of ego who thinks they are good in extremely narrow/limited set of skills that the vast majority couldn't give a shit about.

      But then again we're talking about a society where people would rather watch someone else's fake virtual life (actor) then focus on living their own.

      --
      Only Cowards use Censorship

    22. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because you do not know what sports is. Or you ignore it to allow your belief.

      It's a competitive hobby with enough casual interest that it can be used to facilitate advertisement.
      The hobby itself doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's kicking a ball, moving pieces of wood on a board or controlling a game client.
      It only matters that there's enough people who want to tune in and watch it, so advertisement can be peddled.

      It's not really complicated. You don't pay the player because he's good at his hobby. Why would you ever do that? It's not even a remotely tangible good that can be sold. What are you gonna do with a good football kick? Bottle it and sell it at 4.95 per drink? No, it's only entertainment. It's the idea that that single kick matters. That's what attracts people. That's what makes your product valuable to advertisers. And that's what makes it a sport instead of a hobby.

    23. Re:Esport? by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      The meaning of all things is variable and should be. Though if society chose to label gaming under another term than sport. Like you know gaming... But when played competitively the duel meaning is fine and sport is fitting again.

    24. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell is an esport?

      You mean gaming? Because gaming is not a sport no matter how you try and word it.

      Actually I agree that sometimes its becoming one. Hopefully soon with more games.

    25. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think this through. The analogy works even better with stuff that a lot of folks like.

    26. Re:Esport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You only need to join the starcraft amateur league and let them rip you a new one match after match...

    27. Re:Esport? by eennaarbrak · · Score: 1

      Because gaming is not a sport no matter how you try and word it.

      Maybe its art then?

      But seriously, who cares? How does the word we use to describe the thing change the concept of it?

    28. Re:Esport? by Njovich · · Score: 1

      You mean running as a sport? Obviously it's a game, there are even competitions for it!

  7. business expense by zeroryoko1974 · · Score: 1

    Would Mountain Dew and snacks be considered a business expense for a pro gamer team?

    1. Re:business expense by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Actually, just like real athletes, it's better if you can keep your athletes focused on the game without energy drinks and junk food. Same for any other sports - sure you can get into an amateur league on beer and hot dogs but once you get to the middle to high-end leagues, you need a proper diet, discipline and training and especially when you go into the top leagues, nobody (even the fans) would approve of beer, hot dogs or energy drinks at anytime during the game.

      Same goes for e-sports, you need proper training and practice in the game, you sometimes live in a house with your team, your team practices against you and against other teams. But you also need to be physically and mentally fit, not only for the game itself but also for the extensive travel and long hours during tournaments. I don't know any e-sports champion that is an obese, basement dwelling geek.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re:business expense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not an expense - you get paid to eat them publically. With that said, as someone who used to be sponsored for FPS (never salaried though) - most of the pro FPS players I know don't eat that shit. I drink a lot of water and orange juice during FPS matches, sometimes sugar-free energy drinks at LANs - but you can't risk a sugar high making you jumpy and hyper. It probably sounds strange, but regular exercise and good diet make you better at highly competitive FPS (and it actually shows, I can only think of a single pro FPS'r who was really out of shape IRL - which is I think the stereotype we get from outside the community: totally inaccurate).

  8. I Was Surpised! You're Wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I felt the same way until my son showed me a new world.

    Have a look at Twitch TV for a start. There they have live streaming of gaming "events", with commentators, advertisers, sponsors, recaps, replays... It is truly no different than professional sports or these televised poker competitions.

    I find it a sad little world, watching other people playing a video game(especially such lame ones), but it does exist and is increasingly popular. Truth be told though, I don't feel very much different about professional sports. Sitting and watching other people play a game is of no interest to me, unless I have some attachment to the game like my own son playing. I'd rather read obfuscated javascript than watch NFL football.

    But millions of people love watching NFL football and a rapidly growing number like watching "professional" video gaming.

    1. Re:I Was Surpised! You're Wrong. by psithurism · · Score: 1

      I find it a sad little world

      People will get fun from whatever they get fun from; I don't understand a lot about watching sports or e-sports, but I'll try to share what I do.

      My whole family played tennis while I went through high school. We'd sit and do homework with tennis on in the background. It's an easy way to learn plays, terminology and observe proper form. I got involved in local poker tournaments as a place to hang out with people, in a game that involves a good deal of strategy, but found I did not have the patience to watch poker tournaments, but new many of the people there did to get a better understanding of the game.

      I would often watch starcraft. I was somewhere in the bottom 5% of amateur players when I played online.Watching pro-starcraft matches gives me the same advantages as above, besides the fact that watching space marines take formations to shoot acid spewing aliens is somehow entertaining to me in its own right.

      I admire your decision to do something noble with your free time like reading code, but after a tough day of debugging (hopefully unintentionally) obfuscated C code, I'd often much rather kick back and watch little simulated creatures blow each other up than debug more code.

    2. Re:I Was Surpised! You're Wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They get paid to play.
      Therefor, they are professional gamers.
      End of.

    3. Re:I Was Surpised! You're Wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find it a sad little world, watching other people playing a video game(especially such lame ones), but it does exist and is increasingly popular.

      Sad? As compared to watching people playing, say, golf? Or chess? Or people driving around in circles (aka NASCAR)? Or watching people trying to hit a ball with a stick (aka baseball)?

      How much sadder is people sitting there and watch so-called wrestling (the kind that is obviously staged)?

    4. Re:I Was Surpised! You're Wrong. by DKlineburg · · Score: 1

      I would add, I never thought about it, but I got better a SC2 after watching pros, and hearing the build order mentioned. I found out I had jumped pas my friends, and I didn't realize it. Watching reply's like the pros do does help.

      --
      Memory is deceptive because it is colored by today's events. - Albert Einstein
  9. eSports is a thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    http://www.teamliquid.net/ --> Professional Starcraft news site.

    A look into the world of eSports. The first Starcraft at one time had a team league and two individual leagues, all three of which were televised on dedicated video game networks (OGN and MBC). Team sponsors then and now include(d) telecoms, Samsung, and various entertainment companies, while tournaments were sponsored by companies Coca-Cola and airlines. Yes, eSports is a thing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlKwIi0Kj8E shows the attendance for a proleague final.

    This sort of thing has been going on for a while over there, and is on the rise in the USA.

    1. Re:eSports is a thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *companies like Coca-Cola and airlines.

  10. I'm struggling calling gaming a sport by vpness · · Score: 0

    "An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others." Skill ? no question gamers are skilled *physical* *exertion* ? really ? really ? competition ? again, no question

  11. Huge on fluff, short on details. by cp5i6 · · Score: 1

    Why is this article even worth mentioning.

  12. My rule by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you can drink while playing it/competing in it, it is not a sport. Sorry golf, curling, gaming, etc.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:My rule by tygt · · Score: 1

      I suppose Bicycling and Running aren't sports, then, either? While we're at it, rule out Mountain Climbing, Hiking, and probably numerous other mere activities. No sport for you, nidi says so. Ever see a runner grab a cup to drink as he passed by an aid station? Ever see a bicyclist reach down and grab a water bottle and drink?

    2. Re:My rule by travdaddy · · Score: 1

      GP meant drinking as in beer/alcohol, which is OK for Curling and Golf like he said but a very bad idea for Mountain Climbing, Running, and Bicycling!

      --
      Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
    3. Re:My rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One could drink during baseball when you're not at bat, sitting on the bench. That's slightly less than half of the whole game. Does that make baseball not a sport?

    4. Re:My rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't drink while playing competitive video games, you'd get absolutely destroyed. You'd be far better off playing Football or something drunk.

    5. Re:My rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, drunk curling is the greatest sport in the world! It's all about a balance between strategy (should we try to raise that rock or draw? But then what would they do?) and stupid decisions (SCREW IT THROW THE ROCK AS HARD AS YOU CAN AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS). Drinking simply shifts the strategy balance.

    6. Re:My rule by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      which is OK for Curling and Golf like he said but a very bad idea for Mountain Climbing, Running, and Bicycling!

      Drinking while running is basically the point of Bay to Breakers, right? You'd be surprised, a lot of distance runners also seem to like drinking heavily from time to time. From the link:

      "alcoholic mile". you take 4 shots b4 it starts and wait about 30min. then you start and every lap you take another one. by the time we finished I ran about 2miles w/ swerving and whatnot!

      As far as drunk cycling, check this guy out. Notice the guy missing teeth in the pic halfway down. Does that count for anything?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:My rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly you, nor the OP have ever heard the phrase "friends don't let friends fly drunk" in reference to EVE Online. Those instances where it does occur tend to get their own slashdot headline where thousands of real world dollars are lost due to one sloppy move by a player.

    8. Re:My rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They even made movies about drunken football, so funny. Guess not a sport then.

    9. Re:My rule by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Clearly you, nor the OP have ever heard the phrase "friends don't let friends fly drunk" in reference to EVE Online.

      Of course you do. That's how you get some of the best EVE stories.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    10. Re:My rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just proving GP's point. Combining those activities with drinking changes them from a sport to a stunt.

    11. Re:My rule by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That's true for video games, too; or curling for that matter.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:My rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck that. I not only bicycle while drunk, I've done it while having a hangover.

  13. don't the Koreans have a players union and a legen by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    don't the Koreans have a players union and a League that sets rules and other stuff like our pro sports are?

  14. No one owns exclusive rights to respected sports by tepples · · Score: 1

    The difference is that no one owns the rights to Chess or Basketball, while companies own exclusive rights to Tetris and StarCraft. It's as if there were a Basketball Company LLC that could sue a city or school district for copyright infringement for putting a basketball court with correct dimensions into a city park or school gymnasium.

  15. mlb league minimum is better then that by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    better then the top end and that is just the minimum

  16. the NFL and NBA need a non college by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    the NFL and NBA need a non college minor league system. That are a few people in sports colleges that not only are limited in taking trades based classes and they also some times get joke classes as they are on the football team.

  17. some games have cut lan play so the game makeers by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    some games have cut lan play so the game makers can control Esports with there games.

  18. High-quality entropy source on computers by tepples · · Score: 1

    humans have a power that no existing computer can compete with nor compensate for: the ability to act with complete, true randomness

    Since when can no computer "act with complete, true randomness"? Take the 48000 samples coming from the sound card's ADC every second, hash them down to 1 bit per sample, and you end up with 48000 bits per second of high-quality entropy.

    1. Re:High-quality entropy source on computers by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      humans have a power that no existing computer can compete with nor compensate for: the ability to act with complete, true randomness

      Since when can no computer "act with complete, true randomness"? Take the 48000 samples coming from the sound card's ADC every second, hash them down to 1 bit per sample, and you end up with 48000 bits per second of high-quality entropy.

      But that's a predictable result... i.e., not random. Regardless of what audio file you use, the output will be a predictable series of bits, the hashes for which will be equally predictable based on the input bits and algorithm used to compute it.

      Kinda the opposite of random from where I sit... unless the term has another meaning I'm not aware of.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  19. American football is old enough to be PD by tepples · · Score: 1

    But millions of people love watching NFL football and a rapidly growing number like watching "professional" video gaming.

    The difference is that American football is old enough (forward pass 1906, current scoring by 1912) not to be under copyright.

    1. Re:American football is old enough to be PD by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

      Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

    2. Re:American football is old enough to be PD by tepples · · Score: 1

      I was referring to this story from a year ago:
      US District Court: Game Elements In Tetris Clone Infringe Tetris Co.'s Copyright

      If football were copyrighted, the copyright would be in the dimensions of the field, the shape of the ball, the shape of the goalposts, and the like.

    3. Re:American football is old enough to be PD by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game.

      You could copywrite a rule book defining those things. But that does not mean someone couldn't just get another author to write one and call the 'field' the 'playing square' instead. Particularly if the rules are sufficiently paraphrased I don't think there would be too much of an issue. Call it the "grid". Or even use things that can't be easily trademarked. There were quite some battles over these issues. And it was won in the favor of people reproducing games enough that TSR and then Wizards of the Coast came up with campaign settings and the D20 system instead of just a system. They made their real money off of Forgotten Realms. Or licensing that. Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Planescape, etc... and the characters within.

    4. Re:American football is old enough to be PD by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      After reading your article I can see were your coming from. I am not a lawyer but I would rule the shapes of the blocks in tetris to be "devices" in playing the game. I disagree with the ruling. But that doesn't invalidate your point. Tis sad in my opinion to see the laws used this way.

  20. So what if Blizzard were to object? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Starcraft's GSL league had it's own channel in S. Korea.

    What would have happened to such a channel had Blizzard objected to the public broadcast of its copyrighted video game?

    Some Starcraft games were fun to watch on youtube back when I played it.

    Nintendo has begun to "monetize" YouTube videos featuring its games, and for a while, Sega was DMCAing every YouTube video it could find that even mentioned the Shining Force series.

    1. Re:So what if Blizzard were to object? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blizzard and GSL doing the league together. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League

    2. Re:So what if Blizzard were to object? by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      Same thing that happens when the mlb, nhl and nfl pro sports organizations do, the broadcast is taken down one way or another.

  21. MIDI Maze by tepples · · Score: 1

    Multi-player FPS games didn't even exist until 1996

    FaceBall 2000, an early first-person shooter, was on Super NES in 1992 supporting two-player split-screen play. It was a port of an Atari ST shooter released in 1997 called MIDI Maze that supported over a dozen players.

  22. The Tennis Company LLC by tepples · · Score: 0

    And there is a bunch of computer games that should qualify for being a sport in terms of physical skill required

    But they don't qualify for being a sport in terms of having been created before 1923, the cutoff date for U.S. copyright. Imagine if there were a Tennis Company LLC that claimed copyright in the dimensions of a regulation tennis court and succesfully sued a city for putting a tennis court in a city park.

  23. Noise in the mic and ADC by tepples · · Score: 1

    Regardless of what audio file you use

    I was referring to a microphone capturing ambient noise, such as the player's breathing and the key clicks, plus the thermal noise in the ADC. These provide at least 1 bit per sample.

    1. Re:Noise in the mic and ADC by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Regardless of what audio file you use

      I was referring to a microphone capturing ambient noise, such as the player's breathing and the key clicks, plus the thermal noise in the ADC. These provide at least 1 bit per sample.

      ... so, the human user is providing random input (breathing & key clicks), and the computer converts it in a predictable manner.

      Where's the "random computer" part happen?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Noise in the mic and ADC by flayzernax · · Score: 1

      Of you know games could require a dedicated entropy generator.... or server/client architecture for AI...

    3. Re:Noise in the mic and ADC by tepples · · Score: 1

      so, the human user is providing random input (breathing & key clicks)

      Which is sufficient in practice for any game that's actually being played. The least significant bit of the pressure due to breathing, key clicks, speaker output bouncing off the player's head, and other sources of motion of the air in the room is an input source that neither the developer nor the player has any conscious control over. And even if you're trying to be pedantic for pedantry's sake, is the sound card's ADC part of the computer or not part of the computer? If it is part of the computer, then the thermal noise inherent in any 16-bit or deeper ADC is a hardware random number generator; therefore, computers can act random.

    4. Re:Noise in the mic and ADC by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      so, the human user is providing random input (breathing & key clicks)

      Which is sufficient in practice for any game that's actually being played. The least significant bit of the pressure due to breathing, key clicks, speaker output bouncing off the player's head, and other sources of motion of the air in the room is an input source that neither the developer nor the player has any conscious control over.

      Ah, I see now - didn't realize before that you were applying the idea to the previous topic of AI intellect formation; in that case, you make a good point, in that taking random things as input can lead to a 'randomized' output... Nice. Very nice.

      And even if you're trying to be pedantic for pedantry's sake, is the sound card's ADC part of the computer or not part of the computer? If it is part of the computer, then the thermal noise inherent in any 16-bit or deeper ADC is a hardware random number generator; therefore, computers can act random.

      Ooh, that smacks of a higher philosophical, 'why are we here' kind of thinking, doesn't it? Sadly, I don't think I've had enough caffeine (or have had too much) for my brain to function at that high a level right now...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  24. Whether another league can start by tepples · · Score: 1

    If the MLB ceases broadcasts, another baseball league can in theory start broadcasting. If Blizzard shuts down all StarCraft (1) leagues in favor of its new official StarCraft II league, no one can until most of us are dead.

    1. Re:Whether another league can start by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      The MLB actually owns the copyright, ceasing broadcasting is not enough, they'd have to relinquish the copyright or grant permission for somebody else to do it. Same thing applies to Blizzard & the GSL. Blizzard has given permission to the GSL to do its thing.

  25. Re:No one owns exclusive rights to respected sport by Antipater · · Score: 1

    Um...

    Yes. So what?

    --
    Everything is better with chainsaws.
  26. I'll say what everyone is thinking anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The esports exist so the fatties and the physically awkward can claim they are "elite" in a "sport", while at the same time perpetuating unhealthy physical behavior.

  27. Re:No one owns exclusive rights to respected sport by tepples · · Score: 1

    Building a league around a non-free video game gives the game's publisher the power to shut down the league at any moment. The Tetris Company has done this to several online falling block game leagues.

  28. Is there really a copyright on baseball? by tepples · · Score: 1

    The MLB actually owns the copyright

    On broadcasting games between MLB teams in MLB venues. A parallel league would have non-MLB teams in non-MLB venues, just as the pre-merger American Football League, the USFL, and the XFL ran alongside the NFL. Or do you claim that MLB actually has some sort of government-enforced exclusive right over the game of baseball itself and that all minor-league, collegiate, high school, and Little League/Wildcat baseball teams are licensees? If so, I'd love to see a citation.

    1. Re:Is there really a copyright on baseball? by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      The GSL is a "pro" league the equivalent of pro baseball, are there other pro baseball leagues besides the MLB you're aware of?

      If say the Yankees wanted to play in another league, they wouldn't be able to under the Yankees and players would have to term their affiliation with the organization as MLB owns the copyright to that before they could be broadcasted in another league on another team.

  29. Balls and finish lines in shooters by tepples · · Score: 1

    No ball/no finish line...no sport. [...] Ball and finish line has a very wide meaning here.

    Older computer mice had little rubber balls. First-person shooter characters shoot little lead balls at each other. Capture the flag has a ball (the flags) and the finish line (the goal area inside your team's base). Deathmatch has a finish line as well: first to defeat enough opponents that their fainted bodies can be lined up to cross the finish line wins.

  30. Re:No one owns exclusive rights to respected sport by Antipater · · Score: 1

    Well, that's unfortunate for those falling-block league players. But the original post was "I find it hard to believe someone can get paid for gaming." The ability of the game's creator to shut down an unapproved league doesn't really affect the concept of people being paid to play games. Many sports are illegal by law (gladiatorial combat, for example), but that doesn't mean that nobody plays any sports - they just shift to legally-approved ones. Instead of gladiatorial games, they play ball games. Instead of unapproved falling-block leagues, they play in approved Starcraft leagues. It may be a corporate-owned sport, but it's still a sport and people are still getting paid, which was the original question.

    --
    Everything is better with chainsaws.
  31. Independent minor leagues by tepples · · Score: 1

    are there other pro baseball leagues besides the MLB you're aware of?

    There are the minor leagues. The American League arose from one of these minor leagues in 1901 and existed as a second major league alongside the National League for just shy of a century before the NL and AL finally merged into MLB in 2000. Most minor league teams have a farm affiliation with an MLB team, but there are independent minor leagues especially in the northeastern United States. And there are leagues in other countries, which would be forbidden without MLB's permission if baseball were copyrighted, as copyright is international unlike patent and trademark.

    If say the Yankees wanted to play in another league, they wouldn't be able to under the Yankees and players would have to term their affiliation with the organization

    Which is entirely possible. It's also possible for a city to switch from a team in one league to a team in another. When the Canadian Football League expanded into the United States, among the "South Division" clubs were the Baltimore Stallions. They moved to Montreal to make way for an NFL club that was moving in from Cleveland, the Baltimore Ravens.

  32. Sports don't have sequels by tepples · · Score: 1

    I don't see how these "approved StarCraft leagues" can have any longevity. Blizzard could kill them after a decade once StarCraft 3 comes out. Baseball, on the other hand, is stable enough to last generations.

    1. Re:Sports don't have sequels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've had KeSPA for 13 years now, time will tell.

  33. Useless but Entertaining by jasper160 · · Score: 1

    But these guys are no different than a pro baseball player or golfer (with the Phil Mickelson physique to match) getting paid to play games. Useless but entertaining to someone. Yes I am jealous too.

    --
    No good deed goes unpunished.