Slashdot Mirror
Intelligence Director Claims NSA Surveillance Reports Inaccurate
Nerval's Lobster writes "James R. Clapper, the nation's Director of National Intelligence, claimed that recent reports about the NSA monitoring Americans' Internet and phone communications are inaccurate. 'The Guardian and The Washington Post articles refer to collection of communications pursuant to Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act,' he wrote in a June 6 statement. 'They contain numerous inaccuracies.' While the statement didn't detail the supposed inaccuracies, it explained why the monitoring described in those articles would, at least in theory, violate the law. 'Section 702 is a provision of FISA that is designed to facilitate the acquisition of foreign intelligence information concerning non-U.S. persons located outside the United States,' it read. 'It cannot be used to intentionally target any U.S. citizen, any other U.S. person, or anyone located within the United States.' Those newspaper articles describe an NSA project codenamed Prism, which allegedly taps into the internal databases of nine major technology companies: Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Facebook, PalTalk, YouTube, Skype, AOL, and Apple. Both publications drew their information from an internal PowerPoint presentation used to train intelligence operatives. Speaking to Slashdot, Google, Microsoft and Facebook all again denied knowledge of Prism; the Google spokesperson suggested he didn't 'have any insight' into why Google would have appeared in the NSA's alleged PowerPoint presentation. But many, many questions remain."
Quick! Look at this diversion. *runs away cackling*
"You are wrong, but I am not going to tell you HOW you are wrong"
From reading the Powerpoint, I came to a few conclusions. First, the news reports about the details of the program are accurate. Second, the Powerpoint is legitimate, albeit amateur for someone to disregard the standard stylistic guidelines for information that has classifications on it. Third, the full Powerpoint presentation will be declassified in 2037, so do not hold your breath for all the details.
sudo make me a sandwich
Google, Yahoo, Skype... "We don't give the NSA access to your mail/chat". What they really mean is: "We let them take copies of everything via the backdoor API, before we even store it"
It would be illegal, so that can't be what happened.
srsly, since when hasn't spy orgs been balls deep in this kinda stuff:
http://www.buggedplanet.info/
Those in power are one of the following (with regards to this whole spying deal)
(1) Lying about something
(2) Bastards
Feel free to add your own.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
Of course the NSA doesn't spy on American citizens. That's against the law.
What they do is allow friendly foreign agents -- like the UK -- to spy on American citizens, and then they share the data together. It's totally different and completely legal.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
But only because the reality is worse!
Or did people forget about how the FBI uses Carnivore and its successors, or that the NSA has had Echelon in continuous operation? The companies that are protesting that they don't willingly hand over the data are probably right, the NSA is probably tapping the datacenters and ISPs directly without telling anyone concerned (see the fiasco at AT&T for instance).
is that the news outlets are saying it was a secret.
Is there really anybody out there who didn't know the government has been doing this?
In other news, George Orwell's "1984" was published 64 years ago yesterday.
"The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink. Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them."
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
James R. Clapper, the nation's Director of National Intelligence, issued the following statement:
"The NSA and FBI wish to thank wish to thank Google and the glassholes for contributing to the panopticon and bringing us real-time insights into the daily activities of terrorists and potential terrorists (the two categories of citizens) nationwide."
1- Deny It
2- Let it die out
3- ????
4- Hey come here... 1X34's sister is taking a bath...god bless kinetic
That is very well crafted response. Look at what he says "'It cannot be used to intentionally target any U.S. citizen...." - INTENTIONALLY target is key there. They aren't intentionally targeting anyone. They are doing a broad sweep of everyone's data, then analyzing it, at which point they an argue for probable cause and then intentionally target an individual within the scope of the law. Words matter
The NSA, Congress, and the Whitehouse represent an existential threat to the freedom of the American people, the most dire in the history of the country. The Constitution is the law of the land, not just some "damned piece of paper." If the government, in all its organs, branches, and bodies, conspires to violate that Constitution then the American people have the right and duty to take up arms to defend it. As the oath goes, defend it against "all enemies, foreign or domestic." And this is a domestic enemy of the Constitution.
Let's set aside this Left vs. Right bullshit and take our country back, Americans.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
You know... I really wish I could believe him.
But I don't. "It must be wrong because all that is illegal" is a mighty poor excuse, even if the "illegal" part is quite true. I've stood by my country despite many, MANY bad decisions, but... this? I just can't support this.
just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the government isn't spying on all your activities.
Let's face it: The NSA has a history of lying about their spying. It's part of an undemocratic system unworthy of a free people.
In fact, it's part of a longer history of illegal and abusive state operations, like trying to get Martin Luther King to commit suicide. Let's face it: The US government grabs for the maximum amount of power it can get, no matter what the consequences. (Notwithstanding that, the private sector sector is just as bad. Fuck you Cisco, for enabling dictators)
The NSA will do what it wants, and that's that. Discussing the law is mental masturbation. If you want it to stop, you know what you have to do. Since I don't see any progress on our part, all this talk about crimes committed by the authorities is in an infinite loop, with the same thing being said over and over.
At least try to vote the bums out to see if they will vacate the office peacefully.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Imagine that; the government denying that it's doing something illegal. Maybe he was narrating a comic strip or something and they only thought it was a press release.
VZW Engineer on lover's lane: Can you hear me now?
NSA Technician: Check.
VZW Engineer across the street from a Meth lab: And now?
NSA Technician: Check.
VZW Engineer in the depths of FBI (Hoover Building): Can you hear me now?
NSA Technician: Check.
VZW Engineer in the Pentagon data center: How about now?
NSA Technician: Check.
VZW Engineer in the NSA data center: How about now?
NSA Technician: No comment.
Courts have established that the police/government may not record conversations, even if they are not listened to, without a warrant. In effect, Clapper is arguing that the FISA order was a warrant to tap every phone line based on "probable cause". Bullshit. FISA/Patriot act as crap as it is still requires reasonable suspicion.
'It cannot be used to intentionally target any U.S. citizen, any other U.S. person, or anyone located within the United States.'
So what has happened is someone talked a judge into interpreting this to mean it's okay for any amount of data to flow through the NSA, as an implementation requirement, as long as they don't store the data they aren't supposed to. But in order to know what data they are allowed to access they have to look at it first, and some judge ruled that's okay as long as the NSA doesn't act on data they aren't allowed to access.
Better known as 318230.
Seriously, what the fuck does it accomplish by calling anyone conspiracy theorists? It's in mainstream media now - and you're still calling them conspiracy theorists? It was leaked, reported on, and it is out there.. and it's even being shown on TV news in the US.
You're living uninformed and in a bubble if you cannot see the obvious direction the US is headed.. You're sitting there with your head in the sand calling the people that are most vocal about it derogatory names.
This is just what is reported.. A conspiracy theorist would say that most likely the actual truth is more damming.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
Do people really care that much if their call records or internet activity are fed into a support vector machine or whatever? What's the harm in this?
Just playing devil's advocate...
"It cannot be used to intentionally target any U.S. citizen"
So that's why they don't target anyone in specific. They just grab all the communications and treat us all like terrorists.
"I'm saying that when the President does it, it's not illegal!" - Richard Nixon, 1977
He can just disclose everything about this secret surveillance program, thereby easily disbanding any of these 'false' rumors with the truth!
If you do not want to be monitored, don't make phone calls, don't email, don't IM, don't Text. Nobody is forcing you to do any of that.
A good rule of thumb for dealing with digital privacy issues. It'll never let you down.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
The US government has violated the law so many times in the last 10 years that a
"theoretical" violation would to them almost be praiseworthy.
"the statement didn't detail the supposed inaccuracies, it explained why the monitoring described in those articles would, at least in theory, violate the law."
This scumbag is arguing that the allegations in the stories are inaccurate because the actions they describe would be in violation of THE LAW?
Since when does the government give a damn about following the law or holding its employees accountable for violations?
The Bush wiretapping program was blatantly illegal under the original FISA law, the OTS helped banks back-date deposits to mask their insolvency, the ATF smuggles weapons to the Mexican drug cartels. The government openly murders U.S. citizens without charge or trial.
This guy is arguing that government would NEVER violate the law, therefore any allegations of criminal activity by the government must necessarily be false? LOL
Conspiracy
a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future.
You see, since 9/11, government has gained many legal powers to monitor citizens. Whenever someone challenges their powers, it eventually gets approved by SCOTUS. There is no conspiracy: they're just doing it because they can. And one day it WILL be abused. I have absolutely no doubt about that.
And these days with every company out there collecting data on people on every little detail of their lives, our spy agencies don't have to do anything. They just order the corp that is collecting the info they want to hand it over - or else.
And as for James R. Clapper, the nation's Director of National Intelligence, his JOB is to lie, obfuscate the truth, and do whatever it takes to do his job - as he thinks it should be done.
He's a liar until proven otherwise.
The Post/Guardian articles didn't claim that PRISM was being used officially to spy on Americans. They pointed out that its stated purpose was to spy on people thought to be foreign (probability of 0.51 or greater that the target is not a US citizen), and mentioned that some American citizens get spied upon "incidentally" and that this data is supposed to be removed - but also that it's not considered a big deal if American citizens are spied upon.
Additionally some of the communications of foreign targets can involve a US citizen, even if they're not the target of the spying.
Remember also that the intelligence community uses its own private definitions which make it easier to misdirect the public.
i'm pretty sure, were all this stuff true, that denial as having signed on would have been condition 1 in the documents, so again this is more slashdum this site is a shadow of what it once was. where is the new slashdot, did i miss the memo? i don't read those anyway. ,grumble, mubm.le,
> Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them."
This, by the way, and probably deliberately, is the textbook definition of neurosis.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
and will be sent to the NSA promptly for analysis. prism. echelon smarmalon. this is for your protection! wake up sheeple. i don't even know what i mean anymore, so don't worry.
All of the companies probably received an NSL as well.
nothing to worry about, move along you commoners.
mfwright@batnet.com
It's not theory when it turns out it's actually true. That mantra used against opponents of this administration is wearing very thin. A few more days of constant scandals and it will be gone.
There has been “continued exponential growth in tasking to Facebook and Skype,” according to the PRISM slides. With a few clicks and an affirmation that the subject is believed to be engaged in terrorism, espionage or nuclear proliferation, an analyst obtains full access to Facebook’s “extensive search and surveillance capabilities against the variety of online social networking services.”
so, you enter a name to access his full facebook profile, and there's a popup - are you reasonably sure he's a terrorist? yes/no" I'm glad to know there are safeguards in place!
You know... I really wish I could believe him.
But I don't. "It must be wrong because all that is illegal" is a mighty poor excuse, even if the "illegal" part is quite true. I've stood by my country despite many, MANY bad decisions, but... this? I just can't support this.
Based on TFS:
'They contain numerous inaccuracies.' While the statement didn't detail the supposed inaccuracies, it explained why the monitoring described in those articles would, at least in theory, violate the law.
Note that saying "the articles contains inaccuracies" does NOT imply they didn't do it, the "inaccuracies" could mean the truth is worse than reported. Then saying the monitoring would violate the law is just another statement, which does NOT imply they aren't doing it either.
Consider a murderer saying that the reports of his crime "contained inaccuracies" (which could be having inaccurate time of murder), and then he go on to say "murder is against the law". Both statement are true, but doesn't mean he is saying he didn't commit the murder.
This is a great opportunity to make (or promote) a better social network that is decentralized.
Whoops, sorry everybody... It was my job to cue the government apologists, but I was late, so don't blame mark-t for going ahead on schedule.
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
Anyone else notice the lack of coverage about this or any other story about the NSA on CNN's homepage?
gosh dammit why did rms have to be right about something again? I hate it when that guy is right. Also I guess I'm going to have to start using crappy duck duck go and running a mail server, dammit.
obama must go
We do not comment on intelligence matters.
is what the GCHQ said.
a non-admission admission, if there ever was one.
Yes, sure, "it cannot be used to intentionally target any U.S. citizen" -- but a sweeping dragnet that intercepts and logs every private communication of every citizen of the United States isn't exactly "targeting" any particular citizen, is it? Of course to us, that makes it worse and not better, but to the agents of the modern US surveillance state it is a lovely loophole indeed.
"I am The Law!" - Judge Dredd and the NSA
The Patriot Act needs to go! Join the EFF Today! and start writing you your Senators and members of congress now to get this horrid piece of legislation repealed. The only way it will stop is if we tell them both in writing and in the voting booth that we want this violation of our privacy to stop.
We have a huge hidden intelligence network that has ballooned since 9/11 and it just feeds on data and money. It's largely ineffective and couldn't actually target a couple of brothers that were directly warned by the Russians, leading to the bombing of the Boston Marathon. If you think the current administration is in support of your privacy rights, Think Again!"
“All it takes for evil to succeed is for a few good men to do nothing...” - Edmund Burke
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
We have the warrant, the FBI writes them out for the FISA court, the warrant sends the data to the NSA.
Yeh we get it, its illegal, so you hid it, you fucking liar Clapper.
Everyone of you in the NSA that think you're the good guys, if you are the good guys why is the truth so scary. You're the fucking STASI, no different. You kept your mouths shut kidding youselfs you were good Americans.
STASI
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/3275905/Stasi-police-kept-East-Germans-in-fear-for-40-years.html
"They did not need torture chambers and rubber truncheons to keep people in line, but instead exploited the insecurities of members of the public, according to author Christhard Laepple."
"Turning one in three of the German Democratic Republic's 17 million citizens into informers, the Stasi injected fear, uncertainty and suspicion into every walk of life, making sure few people ever uttered anything which might anger the regime."
"...Most of the spies interviewed professed to be committed socialists who believed they were weeding out capitalist opponents."
"But others were simply remorseless opportunists with scant regard for the lives they ruined. All withheld their real names for fear of being ostracised. "
Yeh we get it, you're good socialists trying to weed out capitalist opponents, same thing.
Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them."
Physicists do that occasionally.
They need to do stuff like that since they haven't got the Theory of Everything yet. So they work with what they got even if the stuff is contradictory.
Damage control... :>-(
It's more sad, that even Apple jumped their bandwagon
Google/Facebook/Microsoft boast that they track your browsing, read your communication, and sell that data to advertisers. Why would you expect them refuse to share the data with a legitimate government? I am not even sure if I would even want them to refuse.
Your security and your privacy are your responsibility. Strong encryption and onion routing gave a technical solution long ago; we just need society to decide if it values privacy.
I used to work at Bank of America and NSA had a black door closet in our office that I couldn't get into. Now mind you I had a security key card that could open any door in the establishment due to me being in the network security team. I could get in any VIP office, the trade floor, any secured area and any BofA server room on the premises but no one in our company could open that one door. So it's not just Internet dotcoms it's all your financial transactions and anything else as well. They are snarfing everything.
"While the presentation hints that those tech companies gave their assent to the NSA tapping their databases, many denied awareness of Prism—much less involvement with the NSA—when contacted by Slashdot."
This means that the people at those tech companies that Slashdot talked to may be lying -or- they may not have any awareness of what they're company is doing. It doesn't mean that the company isn't involved and that other people there do know what's going on.
Of course he didn't lie when he said it was inaccurate.
There is likely a spelling error or two in it or a deviation from proper formatting for that sort of document (maybe introduced to Bowdlerize the specific copy).
Thus, the document is inaccurate. QED
Inaccurate is a meaningless word in the same way that "improved" is when applied to advertisements. It's defined to be meaningless, but warm and fuzzy feeling.
what I'm confused about is.. didn't Obama just admit to this the other day?
or is this different spying?
wtf?
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I'm as much a fan of privacy rights as the next guy, but at the same time I recognize that there probably is some real intelligence value in being able to analyze the networks and online transactions of 'known or suspected terrorists'. It seems to me that what the Government is trying to do here is provide a 'data mart' of sorts that includes all data, but only allowing queries against said data with warrants in place, and some level of assurance that the targeted individuals are outside the US (such as to be in compliance with FISA). In other words, the Gov't may in fact be doing what it legitimately believes is right, and in fact what the citizenry demands and expects of it.
To me, the problem is that the checks and balances associated with what they're doing are all 'secret' and ripe for abuse. I'm not alleging that abuses are in fact taking place, but it is a slippery slope as currently constructed, and it would not be surprising at all to hear that abuses have taken place.
I view this as a 21st century parallel to many of the arguments made by the framers of the constitution. The Gov't has a legitimate right to establish and arm a police force, but placing the police force under civilian control, with budgets and oversight provided by various levels of local, state, and federal government as well as the legislative and judicial branches establishes a system of checks and balances that for the most part keeps police forces working for the good of society and prevents most (but certainly not all) abuses of police authority. And that, to my way of seeing things, is what is missing from these discussions. I think we have to acknowledge the Gov'ts right (and in fact duty) to collect this sort of information, because it has legitimate value in protecting the citizenry. What we should be pushing for is a more robust system of checks and balances and more transparency into the ways it is used. The gathering of this information by agents of the government isn't any more 'evil' than is the arming of agents of the government. Both have legitimate governmental purposes - to protect the citizenry. What is missing in the case of gathering of mass quantities of data on the citizens is a system of checks and balances and a level of transparency that fosters trust in how it is being used. That, in my opinion, is what we should be fighting for.
"James R. Clapper, the nation's Director of National Intelligence, claimed that recent reports about the NSA monitoring Americans' Internet and phone communications are inaccurate.
In fact they are probably not. Hey technologically savvy geeks and Internet gurus... does this whole PRISM thing with its internal backdoors to everything and it comes to light suddenly and completely, does this make sense??
Actually to computer geeks aware of the mechanisms involved it might sound more like a Hollywood script. Perhaps because it is. Let me spell out my own theory.
1. NSA is concerned that they are directly implicated in the mining of Verizon and others' meta-data which is delivered to them on a regular basis. They sensed correctly that this story will grow legs and start to walk, perhaps all the way to become a 21st century Church Committee Congressional Action. AS IT SHOULD. When something erupts that cannot be surpressed, the tactic is to release a FAKE something that is BIGGER and can be used to gather all attention. And control that.
2. NSA has secrets to keep. The secret they most wish to keep is that there is charter-be-damned network-level slurping of all domestic backbones, just as James Bamford warned us about in 1982. First slated for voice, it has expanded to cover Internet as well. It is being carried out by them or at their behest by private contractors (greetz to Comverse). This is a network level piggyback slurp operation, a total vacuum cleaner.
3. So they got together and burned the midnight oil, and came up with this fake PRISM distraction, a series of "leaked" slides that implies that the major providers have willingly provided backdoor access into their servers and clouds. As technological folks you should see that if such an operation did exist, involving disparate providers, each with their own proprietary systems, with thousands of senior-level operators, it would have been impossible to contain, let alone manage.
4. It falsely implicates the providers directly. All those Corporations Are Evil conspiracy nuts will eat it up. Moderate people will start to question the veracity of PRISM outright as representatives from trusted corporations like Apple and Google step forward. No one will be able to produce evidence of this back-door collusion framework because it does not exist.
5. The PRISM straw man will be knocked down. Congressional hearings will commence, but they will be pre-injected with specific questions about PRISM, NOT the piggyback slurp operation. PRISM this, PRISM that. If anyone begs their congress to press NSA on its network level surveillance operations under oath, that congress critter will ask a question.... about PRISM instead. "Because that is the issue we are investigating, and we don't have time to discuss anything else." Meanwhile lots of ancillary leaks about PRISM will be fed to the press to keep everyone talking about it.
6. Then amid fanfare, everyone will reluctantly admit that the (fake) PRISM operation has been shut down.
7. And perhaps, in exchange for turning off the heat with a (fake) witch hunt in which the PRISM witch is drowned, the providers might be more willing to pass on the SSL keys to the web, SPOP and SIMAP servers on a regular basis so all that end to end encryption they intercept at the borders becomes completely transparent. Something that could be done without any spook setting foot in someone's server room.
Just sayin'. I like to say things like that.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them."
Physicists do that occasionally.
They need to do stuff like that since they haven't got the Theory of Everything yet. So they work with what they got even if the stuff is contradictory.
So do theologians:
"It's so simple a little child can understand it"/"The ways of God are inscrutable to man".
This is how bureaucrats try to connote that a report is riddled with errors, falsehoods, and bad conclusions, without actually saying that. They can't say it because it isn't true, so they have to tap dance around that inconvenient fact by saying a report is 'inaccurate'. 'Inaccuracy' could easily refer to misspellings of people's names, dates off by a day, typos, etc. Unless he says exactly what he's talking about, it's reasonable to assume he's just trying to obfuscate.
Apparently it's lost on most people, what we would call the Fundamemtal Theorem of America, that we forbid, in a Constitutional way, some powers from government in their entirety.
Regardless of any beneficial use, they will be misused by those in power to remain in power.
Proof: All of human history
The solution: Blanket forbiddng of said powers completely. Then it can't eventually be misused.
And those powers that are granted have many checks and balances circumscribing their use. Removal of court, even secret court, oversight violates this Fundamental Theorem.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
"Never believe anything until it's officially denied."
http://www.jonathanlynn.com/tv/yes_minister_series/yes_minister_episode_quotes.htm
I don't believe any of them.
Clapper
The Guardian and The Washington Post
Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Facebook, PalTalk, YouTube, Skype, AOL, and Apple.
the NSA
Do those morons at NSA realize how much damage they inflict on the country just by collecting and storing all that shit?
First, parts of that stuff can be leaked (the same way those ppt files got out - in practice it's impossible to guarantee absence of covert channels)
Second, do they even realize that they have Russian/French/Israeli/WhatHaveYou moles, who are hell bent on getting (and most probably already there) access to that thing (at very least to find known targets connections; blackmail targets; influence targets etc.)?
STUPIDITY!
SETI@Home has yet to detect 'alien' or any other life in the universe (even its creators) !
NSA@Home will now suffer an even more ignominious failure !
See the recent SCOTUS case of "Clapper vs. Amnesty International" and the 2007 6th District appeals court case of "ACLU vs. NSA"
In both cases, the government has successfully argued that the plaintiffs lack "legal standing" to sue the NSA for its warrantless surveillance activity. They government and courts put the burden of proof on the plaintiffs to demonstrate that they were "harmed" by the programs. The government also refuses to release information about WHO they targeted, so the plaintiffs have no way to obtain this proof.
These rulings are a travesty because the government can now circumvent the Constitution in any way that it wants. They just claim that their illegal activities are "secret". The courts then refuse to rule on the Constitutionality of the program and the illegal activity continues.
IANAL, but if it can be shown that the government is intercepting all of our data, wouldn't everyone have "legal standing" to challenge the activity? i.e. there's no longer a need to prove that anyone was specifically targeted because they targeted everyone.
If you're one of the advocates of continually increasing the size and power of government, then congratulations! We're reaping what you've sown.
When we let the government grow and grow and grow with no limits, no accountability, borrow uncontrollably, print money uncontrollably, raise the debt ceiling time after time, and continually increase the list of things we expect them to do for us, we end up with this: agencies so huge and powerful that they're always watching you.
A government big enough to give you anything, is big enough to take everything. Remember this the next time you're clamoring for another giant government bureaucracy that you hope will allow you to shed some more of your personal responsibility.
Spy boss: "Fuck you!"
You're sitting there with your head in the sand calling the people that are most vocal about it derogatory names.
That's the goal of today's two party scam. One does a power grab, the other abuses it. One complains about the other until they're out of power and let their own get away with even more because the "other side" did it so now it's legal even if it's not legal. The cycle continues.
Sadly the backers of these two parties don't understand that they're not part of their parties... they're just gimps being strung along as voting class fodder.
When James R Clapper opens his mouth I have no reason to believe or trust anything he says. He lied in testimony in front of congress and he won't even say what is wrong about the reports because "classified".
When technology companies like Microsoft tell us they safeguard our data or don't put backdoors into their shit and then lie about participation in spying programs are paying customers expected to do something other than switch to linux?
What about their foreign customers how are they supposed to trust an american company with perception of an out of control lawless state?
Secret interpretation of law is corrosive to state legitimacy. Which translates to non-academic consequences in the real world.
Foreign companies will think twice (US = next Huawei) before trusting US based firms for anything. People will increase their use of information security technology and the result will be negative effects on actual lawful non-puppet judge issued warrants.
Aggregation of power always leads to corruption. They are inseparable laws of human nature.
For some reason there seems to be a lot of uninformed (but I'm about to explain why being uninformed doesn't matter) debate about whether or not NSA broke the law, truly warranted, or whatever.
On one hand it's not really accurate to view government as a cohesive monolith which actually has an agenda (whether it's an agenda for good or evil), and yet, believe it or not, government does sometimes manage to accomplish things, or parts of it can work together (perhaps even with one of those parts being unwitting) to get something done. And whenever you idly decide to look at our government in the latter way, here's what you have:
A potential adversary who makes its own decisions about whatever it allows itself to do. (Congress makes FISA which might theoretically limit NSA, if NSA chooses to behave in a limited way. Together, that adds up to: US government's whim.)
In theory, we are the ones who make decisions about what the government is allowed to do, but either we don't, or more realistically we're divided (i.e. you don't happen to always agree with every one of our decisions), or we just don't think things through very deeply (e.g. "What do you mean they might abuse this power? No, this power is intended for fighting bad guys").
By worrying about whether or not NSA obeyed the law, you're basically asking whether or not a (possibly) adversary can be trusted to not act like an adversay.
That's insane. (I would like to express this more harshly, but I'll leave it at that.)
So.. let's not worry about the law. Whether NSA broke the law or not is irrelevant. If the news story were that Chinese government had logged all Americans' phone calls, we wouldn't be talking about whether they obeyed Chinese laws or not. You'd immediately realize that the very question is silly.
I realize that's a self-defeating attitude in many contexts, because a lot of the time, you really just do have to trust your government and hope for the best, make laws to try to force your government to be benign, and so on. This approach doesn't work reliably (what a boring world it would be, if it did) but it does work to a degree at least. It's better than nothing, and most importantly, it really is the best you can do. I am not going to give people shit for doing the best they can do.
With protecting communications privacy, it's not the best you can do. (I'm not sure it's even in the top ten.) The fourth amendment is nice and all, but have you considered defence in depth?
You have a fucking supercomputer in your pocket! You primarily use it (I think ; at least I do) to communicate with people that you have met in physical space. Or if that's not the dominant use case, it's at least a reasonably common one. And in addition to being able to interface with the old "phone system" it's able to generically access the Internet, so the protocols, capabilities, and standards of the "phone system" have really no bearing on what you can do with it.
That we aren't at a minimum encrypting based on 1970s PK technology, is pretty silly. And just doing that, would go a long way toward defeating potential adversaries such as the your own government du jour. There happen to be lots of especially interesting problems with encrypting interactive voice, so maybe you wouldn't win right away if you really did limit yourself to 1970s tech, but right now, we're not even trying.
Furthermore, some of the people you talk to, you see often and for extended periods. Your phone and your wife's are in the same room how many hours a day? And each of you has a supercomputer (with more storage in a $10 SDcard than my entire 1993 desktop computer) which also happens to have an antenna, a microphone, at least one CCD, an accellerometer -- that is, a damn near ideal hardware random number generator, and countless opportunities to securel
The US government have laws in place that protect US citizens from some form of surveillance. But if you're a foreigner, the NSA has every right to access any of your data stored in or passing through computers in the US. So, if you are foreigner and you choose to use Google, Facebook, Skype, etc, be aware that the NSA is most certainly watching you, and no US law will protect you, and in fact there are US laws that explicitly grant this right to the NSA. Did you ever wonder what was the "interception system" that was compromised by Chinese hackers, as Google admitted in an official blog post?
punishable by death?
was tracking their very move would be called but jobs? My how times have changed.
20 installation places, that's 1 M USD per place to install the hardware, configure it and route the traffic to an NSA server farm. It's completely plausible.
The slides are real.
The actual situation is much, much worse."
In 2003, Clapper, then head of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, attempted to explain the absence of WMDs in Iraq by asserting that the weapons materials were "unquestionably" shipped out of Iraq to Syria and other countries just before the American invasion, a "personal assessment" which Clapper's own agency head at the time, David Burpee, "could not provide further evidence to support."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper
Allow me to be the first to say, Kiss My Ass, Gen. Clapper.
(Just kidding, 'natch!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
Hope every sentient Americans (just a few of us remaining, I'm afraid) have read:
Lance DeHaven-Smith's Conspiracy Theory in America
Actually, according to CIA document #1035-960 (full version to be found in Lance DeHaven-Smith's book by University of Texas Press, Conspiracy Theory in America) officials, newsies on the payroll, and like-minded zombies, should reply to all facts, factual evidence and criticisms with "conspiracy theory, conspiracy theory" --- evidently newsies get paid a bonus for repeating that phrase!
.....I don't want to hear from you, sonny!
Senatory Sackbut
The saying is... even the paranoid have enemies.
The NSA, after all, comes under the authority of the Pentagon (since 1988 when President Reagan made it so, prior to that it was ostensibly a "civilian" agency). But they have broken all the corporate codes and commercial codes, which gives them unbridled access to financial intelligence, which sentient beings have known to be their primary mission.
Sins when are YouTube and Skype companies? especially when Google and Microsoft are among the other 7...
They used optical splitters on AT&T San Francisco in 2006. When did this program allegedly start, about 2007 with MS? Why reinvent the wheel? I think they have similar devices installed at the ISP's named. They thus have constant real time access, and ISPs can honestly deny that there is a back door or any kind of direct access to their servers. Maybe PRISM is backronym that provides a clue to the use of optical splitters to obtain the data.
They will always deny US spying on US citizens. The same as with torture, as they are not the party directly spying on US citizens. The same technology companies providing the "foreign-spy" tools are used by allies. UK using the same tools and feeds can profile all US citizens without law coming into play. The US just shares intelligence with the UK, giving them all they produce without actually spying on their own citizens. Do we call this "Data-Rendition"?
Here's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a rational person:
1) A rational person looks at the facts, directly deduces the current state of affairs, and decides to try to change things for the better (or worse, if you're evil).
2) A conspiracy theorist complains about "the way things are headed", and perceives facts as mere evidence for a worse scenario, now and in the future.
To a conspiracy theorist, everything is a slippery slope and hopeless. Rational people deal with policy on an issue-by-issue basis, accept that society is fully capable of reversing course if and when it chooses, and if society doesn't immediately bend to their whim don't presume that society is imminently about to fall apart.
Om nom nom nom...
Great. The monitoring of all call records means that all that Al Qaida now needs to do is call people. The NSA, FBI and IRS will then do the terrorising for them.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
PRISM + Google Glass is a terrifying thought. Facebook has nothing on this combination.
thats pretty much my best post ever. I spent like 3 hours typing it.
Another concern is that the massive volume of data collected by the NSA (and shared amongst the NSC and Feds like FBI) is that a substantial part of the data relate to criminal activities other than Muslim Terrorist Organizations. Everybody loves money ! and Federal employees, even the President are no different in that respect. Blackmailing a Terrorist organization, by the Obama Administration or person in the Admin while potentially could involve of gaining large sums of money, millions of dollars, the probability is low. On the other hand, Federal involvement in petty crime with little sums of money, 1k to 100k has a higher probability. And this is compounded with 100k to one million of Federal employees and contractors involved.
In a legal conundrum though is that the NSA, i.e. the Obama Administration is purposely withholding information on criminal activities including arson, general mayhem and murders. Withhold information of criminal activities is called 'Omission' in which case in a trial the Obama Administration can be found 'Guilty by Omission' of all crimes committed during the NSA vacuum program. HA !
Just think about it. The Obama Administration had prior-knowledge of every crime committed in the U.S.A over the past years since 2009 and did nothing about alerting local authorities !
Talk about Presidential Impeachment ! The entire Obama 'High Command' could be taken down a having prior-knowledge of petty theft crime or think 'Newtown Massacre' !
Law Suite Time Big
IMHO the the term meta-data could easily encompass an automated transcript of the contents of voice conversations, or at minimum, enough data to recreate it, without "recording" the voice data itself.
So is my shoe size, but if the show fits wear it!
I am an European citizen. So I am being spied. So is chanceler Merkel, president Puttin, Juan King of Spain, Prime-ministers and CEO's anywhere, Airbus, the supermarket around the corner... The Pope (Francisco is not American, remember). So, Americans, feel secure. NSA is only spying the rest of Humanity that uses the Internet. Remember General David Petraeus? Some local FBI guy had access to these tools and a modern myth, an American hero, the head of the CIA himself fell in disgrace for some girl crap. Are the Saudis, the Baranies, the Turks safe? The US sees Turkey as a critical ally. We respect that. But these "ally" stuff has already proven to be very dangerous, as we were proven when the CIA flew prisoners to secret locations (Syria included) for torture and interrogation in the presence of Company's agents. So, spying on every Human being using the web and mobile phones (I will quit my Apple device), the US might find important for "the war on terror" to share info with any ally regarding anyone. Except Americans, that is. And, we know the quality of some of US allies. Real Democracy champions. So, I am relieved with president Obama's speech. It's all for the common good of mankind.
Note that, until these facts were disclosed, this issue was... Right... A CONSPIRACY THEORY!
Physicists do that occasionally. They need to do stuff like that since they haven't got the Theory of Everything yet.
No we don't. When there are two contradictory theories e.g. GR and QFT we say that it is unclear what happens in situations where both apply, scratch our heads and try to come up with some ideas that we can test experimentally. Nobody believes that both theories are correct - indeed a contradiction like that is proof that one or both theories are wrong - but that does not mean that the theories cannot make useful and valid predictions in circumstances where only one applies. Indeed it is much like newtonian mechanics: we still teach and use it because it is simple and easy to use while at the same time realizing that this is just an approximation of the more fundamental theories of relativity and quantum mechanics.
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/472433-oh-the-jobs-people-work-at-out-west-near-hawtch-hawtch
"Oh, the jobs people work at! Out west near Hawtch-Hawtch there's a Hawtch-Hawtcher bee watcher, his job is to watch. Is to keep both his eyes on the lazy town bee, a bee that is watched will work harder you see. So he watched and he watched, but in spite of his watch that bee didn't work any harder not mawtch. So then somebody said "Our old bee-watching man just isn't bee watching as hard as he can, he ought to be watched by another Hawtch-Hawtcher! The thing that we need is a bee-watcher-watcher!". Well, the bee-watcher-watcher watched the bee-watcher. He didn't watch well so another Hawtch-Hawtcher had to come in as a watch-watcher-watcher! And now all the Hawtchers who live in Hawtch-Hawtch are watching on watch watcher watchering watch, watch watching the watcher who's watching that bee. You're not a Hawtch-Watcher you're lucky you see!"
By the way, while this can lead to "full employment", that does not make it a great thing:
http://pdfernhout.net/beyond-a-jobless-recovery-knol.html
"There are a large number of possible cures that can be tried either to create jobs or to deal with the problems posed by widespread chronic unemployment, each with various different long term societal consequences (both good and bad)."
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
"A conspiracy theorist would say that most likely the actual truth is more damming."
On conspiracy theories, maybe there is already a computer record of our every thought and fart? :-) http://www.simulation-argument.com/
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Good point. I already knew of cases where companies based in other countries did not want to host with US web hosting firms out of privacy concerns. This may tend to accelerate that trend...
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/03/31/2027225/samsung-says-their-tvs-arent-really-spying-on-you
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/09/20/1942248/smart-meters-reveal-what-youre-watching
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/07/18/224208/consumers-may-find-smart-appliances-a-dumb-idea
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/14/1227215/new-bird-shaped-drone-shown-at-security-and-defense-trade-show
http://slashdot.org/topic/datacenter/green500-inventor-asked-to-improve-robo-bugs/
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/19/17830076-secret-weapon-how-thermal-imaging-helped-catch-bomb-suspect?lite
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/03/10/0143240/drones-dogs-and-the-future-of-privacy
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
If we give the implied complicit companies: Apple, Goog, Skype, et.al. the benefit of the doubt, I think that the slides could pretty easily be interpreted as a man-in-the-middle attack on user data, rather than direct access to the internal company data stack. Coming from working on large scale data at big companies, I have little confidence that large scale data access could happen secretly without at least a few engineers of conscience noticing it, much less it being built in secret. Rather more likely, I think, is that the NSA has compromised certificates (for cases where it's even needed) and is working with telcos to intercept backbone traffic to all of the named web companies.
Why wouldn't they just say that? Try explaining a system like that it to a suit-wearer. I also wouldn't expect a non technical reporter to interpret the slides as such, but, from reading the slides, if somebody asked me how I would build PRISM personally, it would be as a backbone intercept backed up by whatever cloak and dagger spy shenanigans are needed to break/acquire crypto keys.
So spying on innocent US citizens would be totally unacceptable, but it's okay to target all non-US citizens? Why? How about just stop spying on civilians in general? It's not "wrong" only when it's done to Americans.