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Revealed: How the UK Spied On Its G20 Allies At London Summits
Writing "Wow, this is going to really set the cat amongst the pigeons once this gets around," an anonymous reader links to a story at The Guardian about some good old fashioned friendly interception, and the slide-show version of what went on at recent G20 summits in London:
"Foreign politicians' calls and emails intercepted by UK intelligence; Delegates tricked into using fake internet cafes; GCHQ analysts sent logs of phone calls round the clock; Documents are latest revelations from whistleblower Edward Snowden."
Spying on foreign leaders! What will they think of next.
That's part of the problem with massive caches of data -- it's hard to secure. So, setting aside all the potential evils that will absolutely certainly occur because of politicians and career bureaucrats having the data, throw in the random security breach by insiders, contractors, script kiddies, whatever.
It is beyond retarded to trust the government with this data.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
I would put money on it that he was bought out by the Chinese to put a official US/Western face to the findings of the Chinese hacking. It seems mighty convenient that the NSA story came out right before the Chinese-US talks, and is kind of hard for Obama to say anything when the Chinese can say "look, you are spying on your own people too". And now with the G7 meeting coming up, this comes out...
And why would this guy go to Hong Kong of all the places he could go?
If the delegates have nothing to hide, then there should be no problem with the public having access.
The tech was probably shared with them by the NSA.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Because it's one of the few places that provide some decent protection against extradition to a "beacon of freedom" that runs secret prisons, tortures its prisoners and imprisons people for years without a trial
You think NSA don't snoop on other intelligence services?
Do you trust politicians too?
Mr. Snowden may eventually be captured by the U.S. government and be hanged by his balls, he may be a Chinese spy as has been alleged by some in the government, but if his revelations are true he is doing you and I ordinary people a great service by airing all this, at a minimum, naughty, and, at most, highly illegal shit. If this stuff is true, I want to see some high government officials hanging by their balls (or tits for those of the female species) for their actions.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
DUH!
Is anyone really surprised by this?
GCHQ is a British organization. How would Snowden get copies of their plans, if there are in fact legitimate? He seems to be making some mighty big claims for having been employed as an employee of an NSA contractor for three months.
You're really asking this?
It's been well known in public for many years -- certainly since 1996 when it was revealed in Nicky Hager's Secret Power ( the book which made ECHELON a household word, and is available here as a free ebook) that the NSA and its partner agencies in the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ work together as UKUSA or the 'Five Eyes' network, even to the point of agreeing to spy on each others' citizens to get around their respective domestic policy limitations.
Furthermore, it's also well known that a major GCHQ installation, Menwith Hill, is actually staffed by NSA officers. Similar American involvement is true for Australia's Pine Gap. To an unknown but probably lesser extent, New Zealand's GCSB listening stations at Tangimoana and Waihopai are also either staffed by, or run in close consultation with, the GCHQ and NSA.
National sovereignty? What's that? For those of us in non-USA English-speaking countries, the situation is strange. We're not American citizens, we have no vote for the US president or Joint Chief of Staffs, yet our leaders take their orders from your leaders. This means that we've all become very interested in American politics, even though we'd rather not. Because you guys in the State may think you're only electing your own local town mayor and dogcatchers, but you're actually choosing who will run the military and spy infrastructures of the whole Western world. And increasingly, the real power players in your system (the NSA, CIA and DoD) don't seem to even care much about the civilian 'oversight'. They just change the logos on the Powerpoints and keep on doing their thing.
For instance, there's a bill in the NZ Parliament at the moment to give our GCSB increased powers in order to synchronise them with the NSA. Did the New Zealand people really want this? No. But we're getting it anyway. Because the US military industrial complex calls the shots even in countries they have no official democratic authority over. But those who make and sell the guns, and control the wires, have a habit of getting what they want.
tldr: There is no independent 'GCHQ'. It's a subcontracted division of the NSA.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
GCHQ has access to the NSA's data. It would make sense that the NSA would have access to GCHQ's data.
That is a very interesting idea. And it would make for a very clever bit of political warfare, leveraging the scandal in the US to attack the British. Not only would it create political problems for GCHQ in the UK, but it could be expected to cause friction between Britain and its allies, as well as cause friction between the US NSA and UK GCHQ. It would also cause further problems against NSA in the US. Friction and suspicion in the Western alliances all around while China continues to expand its fleet, grab new territories, continues hacking, and espionage. Brilliant! One must assume that Sun Tzu is required reading for Chinese strategists, and that it still bears fruit.
“Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.” - Sun Tzu
“All warfare is based on deception.” - Sun Tzu
My hat is off to you.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
So, setting aside all the potential evils that will absolutely certainly occur because of politicians and career bureaucrats having the data, throw in the random security breach by insiders, contractors, script kiddies, whatever.
When the day comes that this information is obtained and used against the same politicians who voted for it, it will be some delicious comeuppance. And better than they deserve. And a minor observation. From the fine summary:
an anonymous reader links to a story at The Guardian about some good old fashioned friendly interception
It's funny the way they phrase things when governments are involved. If you steal your neighbor's car, they won't call it a "friendly theft" just because you were on good terms prior to the theft.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
then turn into enemies to keep them even closer. After all, if they have something to hide they should be conspiring against us.
Easy, here's how: US intelligence (which Snowden worked for) found out about GCHQ's spying and documented it.
That seems like a reasonably likely scenario to me.
Technology and results of surveillance are two different questions. I wouldn't expect them to be kept in the same place.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
>When the day comes that this information is obtained and used against the same politicians who voted for it, it will be some delicious comeuppance.
I really don't think you quite get how that day would work.
"Senator, PRISM has discovered an email of you admitting to having a gay lover in college, something that would make you completely unelectable in this country for some reason."
"Ahh. Johnny Ten Inches. Yes, well, I admit to that. How much is it going to cost for this to go away?"
"We have all the money we need, but it would sure be nice if that new NSA data seizure legislation in the pipeline got a yes vote. #211,944 if I recall."
"#211,944? I'm not familiar with it."
"Of course you aren't, senator. We haven't written it yet."
Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
The US waterboarded a grand total of 3 terrorists
And you believe them.
"Allies" (at least as far as Governments are concerned) are just partners of convenience. They are not friends, and although they might be allies one day they could easily be enemies the next. Now the Brits might have been acting a bit slimy in their methods (I don't like the idea of well-meaning delegates being tricked into using fake Internet cafes), but it's what's done in the Intelligence business and I d
It is not unusual to spy on your allies - indeed it's expected, plus you'd have to be pretty naive to think your own allies aren't doing the same to you. Again, your allies might end up being your enemies one day, so it's important to keep up with what they are doing. Even with the US/UK alliance, a traditionally strong alliance, the US still felt the need to have its own plan in case war with the Brits became necessary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red)
Knowledge is power. The problem isn't spying, it's who has access to the information. I say: Spy on everyone, and let everyone have access to the information. It might even help with unjust censorship laws -- Like in the UK where they want to sensor porn by default... If we can look in the public spy data and show that everyone is looking at porn, but don't openly admit it, then we shouldn't enact such retarding laws.
Capturing such data could be huge tools for transparency but since the public isn't given access to the data, it's only useful for oppression. Right now the Free Syrian Army (which sprang forth from protests for democracy) is fighting against Syrian Soldiers who believe the rebels want a genocide because their dictator controls their information. If the two sides' soldiers were allowed to share information then it would be much harder for the dictator to convince soldiers to fight, and they could have peace talks and perhaps come to a compromise which would give the people more actual control of the government... Bashar al-Assad controls the information, and only through it can he wield and preserve his power.
Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation, and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than they thought.
-- Sister Miriam Godwinson, "We must Dissent"
Information, the first principle of warfare, must form the foundation of all your efforts. Know, of course, thine enemy. But in knowing him do not forget above all to know thyself. The commander who embraces this totality of battle shall win even with inferior force.
-- Spartan Battle Manual
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
-- Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N. Declaration of Rights"
Everything I need to know I learned from Alpha Centauri
Correct. I was implying that the tech was shared on the condition the data it gathered be shared back. Sorry for being so obtuse.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
i guess you don't classify rape as torture. dumbfuck
I really don't think you quite get how that day would work. "Senator, PRISM has discovered an email of you admitting to having a gay lover in college...
You apparently have no familiarity with American culture. Homosexuality was once, "The love that dare not speak its name." Now it's, "The love that won't shut up." There have been a number of legislators that have been "out." It doesn't seem to have hurt their careers. They would probably take it as free publicity.
It would almost certainly lead to a real smack down of the NSA were such a thing to happen.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The sad fact that nobody wants to admit is that ubiquitous surveillance just works.
Yeah, but the question is who it works for.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
No one is surprised, idiot. People are angry. You don't have to be surprised to be angry. The scope of what they are doing can not be made legal without constitutional amendments.
That's some high quality goal-post moving there.
The OP said torture, secret prisons and years without a trial. All of these are true.
But, you don't like that, so you argue that they don't do much of other things, and because the US doesn't have a fence to keep people in (total joke, you can't leave the US without a government issued passport, which is checked at all exits) it's fine and dandy that they do all these things. Pathetic, even for you (and that's saying something).
Oh no, you are quite right. Thank you.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
tldr: There is no independent 'GCHQ'. It's a subcontracted division of the NSA.
Bollocks is it. GCHQ was around long before NSA came along, and from my time there, there was no yank anywhere near the place, even government personnel weren't allowed into most of our buildings. The fact both agencies have intelligence sharing and pissing contests, is neither here or there. But keep your tin-foil hat on, though!
"A secret once shared is secret no more."
It's marginally possible to maintain infosec when your operatives are groomed, recruited, trained and thoroughly and frequently tested by counterops, psych, and intel pros who outnumber them hundreds to one. Then only occasionally does a spy get in and get promoted to the top. This is only possible when the people who know the precious things are few. The top end is maybe 5,000. Probably far less.
When your secrets are shared across thousands of subcontractors whose recruiting you don't even monitor? No. You may as well post your own shit to pastebin.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
You apparently have no familiarity with American culture. Homosexuality was once, "The love that dare not speak its name." Now it's, "The love that won't shut up." There have been a number of legislators that have been "out." It doesn't seem to have hurt their careers. They would probably take it as free publicity.
It would almost certainly lead to a real smack down of the NSA were such a thing to happen.
I think that would depend where they are. It might be different in Alabama to California.
There's also a good chance that the good Senator is married with a couple of kids, is a loudly proclaimed devout Christian, and until now has been "passing". Oh, and hypocrisy being what it is, they may also have taken a prominent anti-gay stance to the press.
How times change. And to think that the US Government once prosecuted WWII Japanese Officers over the war crime of waterboarding. We executed some of those convicted, and others spent a long time in prison. Cheney and his ilk though(*), they profit from the chest thumping book sales.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/yes-inational-reviewi-we_b_191153.html
(*) I include those who excuse such War Crimes, such as Obama, in that "ilk"
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Definitely fishy...these are GCHQ documents...British Government...not NSA...
here's one: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/16/1371408003314/GCHQ-ragout-1-002.jpg
They look like more powerpoint slides...maybe that's his trick, his only real *new* info is some ppt slides from a conference he managed to swipe while setting up a workstation...
Then his narcissism and idiocy take over...
If it isn't China it's the military/industrial complex...
Thank you Dave Raggett
...according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials.
A very believable bunch, I'm sure.... As for 'proof' that there were more than three, that will have to wait until the next leak. To expect anything less than the worse from the NSA/CIA/FBI/DEA... etc is just a little naive.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
And why would this guy go to Hong Kong of all the places he could go?
Six reasons why choosing Hong Kong is a brilliant move by Edward Snowden.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
One of the things that has come out was that our two intelligence agencies are using each other to skirt domestic spying rules. The British spy on Americans citizens and vice versa, then they open up their channels to each other. So quite a bit of their information is sitting in American databanks.
I forgot to add:
Hong Kong currently allows indefinite stay for anyone petitioning for asylum, no questions asked.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I am actually kinda surprised people are surprised about this. Both British and American intelligence agencies have a long history of spying on delegates at various summits, and I suspect that the other countries just take it as part of the game, likely they are doing the same thing on smaller budgets. Not saying it is a good thing, but it is a pretty well known 'secret' at least in a general sense.
There's nothing like a good sex scandal to turn a persons lifes work to mud. eg. Clinton, Petraeus, Assauge.
Didn't seem to do have much effect on Barney Frank.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
That's part of the problem with massive caches of data -- it's hard to secure.
There was no intention to secure the data. Each country's intelligence service shares with their counterparts so they have plausible deniability regarding spying on their own citizens.
The Brits can say they got info from the Americans or Australians NZ, etc and vice versa.
These people in their surveillance communities have far more in common with each other, and more loyalty to each other than to the nations that hire them.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
There is no requirement to hold a trial for POWs.
What's that got to do with anything? We're insisting that these people are not POWs (otherwise, they'd be entitled to a bunch of protections under the Geneva convention).
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
For those of us in non-USA English-speaking countries, the situation is strange. We're not American citizens, we have no vote for the US president or Joint Chief of Staffs, yet our leaders take their orders from your leaders. This means that we've all become very interested in American politics, even though we'd rather not. Because you guys in the State may think you're only electing your own local town mayor and dogcatchers, but you're actually choosing who will run the military and spy infrastructures of the whole Western world.
Ha, I wish... all I get to vote for is politicians. We don't actually get to vote for the people the politicians take their orders from, nor are the people who set and implement national military or economic policy in any way democratically selected or answerable to anyone but (in theory) their shareholders (and even that's not really the case).
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
No, you don't quite have that right. To the best of my knowledge they are POWs, but their status is "unlawful combatant." They do not fight and act in accordance with the Law of War, hence their status. As a result they forfeit protections and privileges they would otherwise have.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The full bore surveillance state that has emerged in the US/Great Britten/etc since the 9/11 attacks has an autonomous agenda. Coping with terrorism is not it's primary goal. It's aim is to permanently protect the current ruling clique from all challenges. It is intrinsically anti-democracy and anti-capitalism. Functioning democracy and capitalism reduce the control and economic position of the power elite, so democracy and capitalism must be being suppressed.
This is the inevitable result of an out of control security system. There are secret organizations governed by secret charters overseen by secret courts with elected officials sworn to secrecy. The people running the organizations lie to everyone all the time. They justify their behavior by claiming that since they are the "good guys", it's OK to do evil things. This is literally the road to hell based on good intentions.
Once an unaccountable organization has the ability to spy on anyone for a good reason, it will spy on everyone for any reason.
Why is Snark Required?
I think you miss his point. Homosexuality is ancillary to the problem it was just an example, it's that something- anything- could be discovered and used against the politician or anyone else for that matter. Replace homosexuality with a stay in a mental hospital, a car accident that killed people, a juvenile crime of some sort (property damage or perhaps assaulting someone in high school), an affair with a biographer or anything that the politician thinks will make him unelectable. That is what the point was about, having some sort of dirt over the person that was discovered through this cache of information that was thought to be personal and private.
Congratulations on finding your little safe corner of the world. I have never felt unsafe in the US and while I do own firearms and encourage everyone possible to carry, I actually do not carry a weapon myself.
I've been to Compton, NYC, Chicago, Miami, as well as many Midwest areas and never once felt unsafe. There was one time in Compton CA where a gang gunfight broke out near me, but I ducked behind a car with 2 or 3 others and waited for the shooting to stop. They weren't shooting at me, I didn't feel unsafe. It wasn't like I was in a war or anything.
I'm not sure why people get scared because guns happen to be around or they go off. But I have learned that people are different all across this country and some are completely scared of the idea of guns while others like me could care less.
The worst part about PRISM, IMHO, is that this debate should have taken place ten years ago.
The only (partial) fix that I can imagine this morning is a constitutional amendment saying that any law passed by congress has to be public. Secret laws ought to be unconstitutional, and thus inoperative. It would help.
Not so fishy: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukusa/
In GOD we trust, all others we monitor.
Re the sig...
...
Check UIDs. I'm COLD FJORD(826450). User COID FJORD(2949869) has impersonated me. Don't confuse us if he trolls you.
kinda ironic that the post was marked as 'Troll', huh...
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
No, you misunderstand, probably again. They were genuine US military, but they did not follow basic standards of conduct and for the treatment of prisoners. They disobeyed orders. They breached military law. They went to jail.
Hopefully you now understand.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Shit is. There's nothing any of us can do about that.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Because UKUSA and ECHELON exist.
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
Maybe.
The great German scientist Max Planck said, "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
If it is difficult to change minds in science, where the evidence is supposed to be explicitly laid out, and matters viewed objectively, how much more so in other endeavors? It is common for things that I post to be both literally true and marked down as trolls, flamebait, or some other. The information often runs contrary to popular opinion, political beliefs, common misbelief, or some other aspect. Sometimes what I post is just inconvenient for a particularly popular rant. No matter.
What I wrote in that post is true. For example, most people have heard of the Berlin Wall, but knowledge of the similar sort of border controls between East and West Germany, and similar ones with Czechoslovakia, is fading, and many are ignorant. The communist block nations had to build fences and use patrols to keep people from leaving the country. The US hasn't had that problem.
As to my doppelganger - he started off literally jumping into conversation in my place, replying in a manner similar to me, and then abusing people. I don't want people to be overly confused.
I don't mind being disagreed with, but I prefer it to be based on the facts I present, not due to an agitator.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
There are two things in play here.
1 Ethically questionable behavior on the part of the UK government which I suspect has drifted into a groupthink position of thinking that conventions and laws relating to privacy and decency doesn't exist and don't apply to them. Before you get upset contemplate if your government behaves in the same manner.
2 All of these 'exploits' rely on poor security practices on the part of the other delegates. Where is the two factor authentication, where are the secure channels, where is the choice of secure device vs Iphone. If you're typing you're logging onto a classified network from an Internet cafe you should lose your job.
The Reality is that these people have a different/special moral compass and thus it has always been. Secondly, fools are being trusted with significant privilege which they are treating in a cavilier manner.
In short your government should be providing you with a secure device, this is not a blackberry or an iphone as there are controlled by external parties. If you want a smartphone use something like to nexus 4, Roll your own (from a government perspective) image.
Include smartcard support and require it for unlocking (via NFC). (Smartcards which meet Common Criteria targets are $10 each)
Ensure that the device filesystems and message stores are encrypted, require smartcard to unlock
Use VoIP back to a single IP address and tunnel this traffic through a VPN, make sure that you include a channel for random padding to stop volume based eavesdropping.
Run something like Strongswan through your governments evaluation process and package this, it's going to be better than what the US sells you. (Guys you're G20 you can afford this)
Feel smug for a minute and then realise that they are still going to have camera and microphones on you at all times, carry a heshan sack around to cover your head when you're on the phone and learn how to sign over the video link ;-)
I've only squished three puppies. That makes it okay, right?
I would think that data sharing between NSA and GCHQ, to the extent that it exists, is on a strictly controlled, only what is agreed to basis, not a wide open file sharing agreement. I don't think the intelligence community tends to roll that way, especially for programs that would involve what is alleged here: spying on diplomatic activity by a national intelligence service. I would expect that to be among the most tightly controlled information.
It isn't that I would necessarily rule out HM intelligence service from doing it, but rather Snowden gaining access to it. That is, highly classified documents from another nation's most secret intelligence agency.
It seems unlikely that someone who started out guarding the parking lot at the CIA and only being an employee of a NSA contractor for three months would be able to get all this so quickly. It seems both unlikely and suspicious. Yet most people here are swallowing his tales hook, line, and sinker.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
tldr: There is no independent 'GCHQ'. It's a subcontracted division of the NSA.
Bollocks is it. GCHQ was around long before NSA came along, and from my time there, there was no yank anywhere near the place, even government personnel weren't allowed into most of our buildings. The fact both agencies have intelligence sharing and pissing contests, is neither here or there. But keep your tin-foil hat on, though!
Yes, the UK and her colonies were doing the spy game long before the USA, and taught them all their tricks; that's well documented. For example, see the career of William Stephenson from Canada in the inter-war years as he set up British Security Coordination and the OSS.
But it's my impression that at the same time, and particularly after the Tizard Mission of 1940 when the UK traded nuclear secrets to the USA for microwave tubes, the original balance of power - between the UK as the world's spymaster/banker and the USA as merely the "arsenal of democracy" producing the weapons - significantly tilted.
By 1944, at Bretton Woods, the US position had become so strong that they were able to overrule the British desire for a neutral Bank for International Settlements and designate the US dollar as the world's default currency for the entire post-war Western world order. This was no small policy defeat. The British Empire crumbled in the face of the war and the independence movements that followed, and the US became her creditor. American loans to the UK for WW2 expenses were only paid off by 2006, by the way.
So while I'm sure GCHQ remains nominally British, it's not the case the British interests are as separate from American ones as they were in 1939.
There's a reason why George Orwell snarkily demoted Great Britain to 'Airstrip One' of the Anglo-American alliance in 1948. It's been apparent for over fifty years where the world's military-intelligence center of gravity has shifted to since WW2, and where it remains. The 'Special Relationship' points in one direction - as the world saw demonstrated clearly with Tony Blair's increasingly bizarre and desperate kowtowing to Bush in the runup to Iraq in 2003. He had no obvious reason to obey Bush's demand for war, and yet. There it clearly was, the invisible leash around his neck with the other end in Washington.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
Snowden was a hero for exposing domestic spying of American by NSA. However, by disclosing US spying on foreign governments, Snowden has crossed the line.
Disclosing anything related to foreign affairs short of atrocities that involve the lost of innocent lives is treasonous. By claiming US hacking of foreign networks and now the disclosure on UK spying, Snowden is hurting his own credibility as a whistleblower which will damage the current push to hold NSA accountable for domestic spying.
And people swallow that 'unlawful combatant' nonsense? Didn't they have the right paperwork? Forgot to get their forms signed by the right people? Or just weren't ready to stand out in the open and be simply blown away by a military that is 100% better equipped than all the other militaries in the world, combined?
Phrases like 'unlawful combatant' are the true banality of evil.
To the best of my knowledge they are POWs, but their status is "unlawful combatant." They do not fight and act in accordance with the Law of War, hence their status. As a result they forfeit protections and privileges they would otherwise have.
The "best of your knowledge" is correct. Only those who follow the Geneva convention are entitled to protection under it, which is the part GWB got right. The part he got (purposely) wrong is that those who don't follow it, i.e. war criminals, should be tried for their crimes like any other criminals and not just summarily disappear to room 101.
It's going to be a long time before anyone holds another major international meeting in London. Geneva, maybe.
If you don't like a particular demographic your brain will make a pretty convincing narrative that they're loud, obnoxious, etc. Anything that doesn't fit the narrative is forgotten and anything that fits is noted and reinforces the belief. The joys of human experience.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
The 'Special Relationship' points in one direction - as the world saw demonstrated clearly with Tony Blair's increasingly bizarre and desperate kowtowing to Bush in the runup to Iraq in 2003.
The United Kingdom is the only country to which the United States sells nuclear weapons.
If push came to shove in the Falklands, the US government was ready to provide an aircraft carrier to the British government if need be.
American loans to the UK for WW2 expenses were only paid off by 2006 [wikipedia.org], by the way.
What's a little debt between friends?
"In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free," says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.
"The loan was really to help Britain through the consequences of post-war adjustment, rather than the war itself. This position was different from World War I, where money was lent for the war effort itself."
Britain had spent a great deal of money at the beginning of the war, under the US cash-and-carry scheme, which saw straight payments for materiel. There was also trading of territory for equipment on terms that have attracted much criticism in the years since. By 1941, Britain was in a parlous financial state and Lend-Lease was eventually introduced.
The post-war loan was part-driven by the Americans' termination of the scheme. Under the programme, the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for.
But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it. . .
Also, look at the Destroyers for Bases Agreement. The US gave the UK 50 warships, destroyers, in return for basing rights. What do you think that was worth, especially at the time?
Interesting contrast to today:
Lord West 'horrified' at size of navy - 19 March 2012
"I am horrified our naval flotilla now comprises only 19 frigates and destroyers," said Lord West. "In the Falklands, in the first month of fighting, we had four sunk and 14 damaged. That makes you think. We seem to have forgotten that when you fight you lose things.
"Here we are with 19 frigates and destroyers. Are they bonkers? Are they mad? How have they allowed this to happen?"
--------
So while I'm sure GCHQ remains nominally British, it's not the case the British interests are as separate from American ones as they were in 1939.
I have little doubt the Her Majesty's GCHQ intelligence service remains completely and unreservedly British, and that British interests, though often in common, are separate from American interests.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I anticipate a propensity for (alleged) sexual offences among those who would oppose the agenda of your NSA/GCHQ types. Just a hunch. Guess we'll see.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
good try, but they don't admit to them being POW's and there's varying degrees of torture with waterboarding being just one of them. also, try walking over the border to mexico or even canada.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Didn't they have the right paperwork? Forgot to get their forms signed by the right people? Or just weren't ready to stand out in the open and be simply blown away by a military that is 100% better equipped than all the other militaries in the world, combined?
No, one of the primary reasons is because they deliberately target civilians as a primary focus for their attacks. That isn't mistakenly, accidently, or "we meant to shoot somebody else," but rather in a deliberate, calculated manner. They send truck bombs into village market places to kill villagers buying food, for instance. That is unlawful. That sort of thing is part of what caused the SS to be condemned as a whole at Nuremberg. They regularly behead prisoners. That is unlawful. They hang 7 year old kids as spies, and attack school children for the high crime of going to school. They mine the trails that pass for roads in many poor countries, regularly killing civilians unlucky enough to pass by. They also regularly violate article 13 of Geneva I. That is just off the top of my head. There are probably others as well. So no, it isn't about paperwork or forms.
It doesn't matter how strong you are, or how weak you are, what they do habitually is forbidden by treaty, and they don't care. They fight by their own rules as Jihadis. Look, they even want to bring back slavery, including making westerners sex slaves. Do you think you can get behind opposing that? Or would that be an excursion into the banal?
Phrases like 'unlawful combatant' are the true banality of evil.
Not as applied, no. The reason it seems like it is that you over look the banality of ignorance, with the occasional sortie into nonsense.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
You could add a bit of 'rendition' to Libya to that. Also, while we're being overly credulous, the NSA don't run surveillance dragnets.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
These guys claim to have been waterboarded when sent to Gadaffi's custody (by the Bush administration), contradicting the 'only three waterboarded' claim, but I imagine you've already chosen who you prefer to believe.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
They haven't summarily disappeared to "room 101." They are being held in the Guantanamo Bay prison camp. They can be held there as ordinary POWs. That isn't a problem any more than holding German POWs for up to 8 years was in WW2. There would have been many more trials conducted by now if various lawyers and progressive groups involved with representing the prisoners had not fought tooth and nail, by hook or by crook, to stop, alter, or invalidate the proceedings.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Facts remain unpalatable as ever.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
That is not the definition of an unlawful combatant, that's the definition of a war criminal. A war criminal is still protected by (and subject to) the Laws of War.
Unlawful combatant means someone who is a civilian who takes part in military combat (with no implications one way or the other about whether they commit any further crimes while doing so). The Geneva Convention is quite clear on what happens to them- if a belligerent captures them, the belligerent can either treat them as a PoW under the regular Laws of War, or they can treat them as a civilian criminal and try them under a "regularly constituted court", subject to the usual international treaties and standards for human rights to justice.
What happens at Guantanamo (detainment without trial, trials by secret military tribunal, water boarding and other forms of cruel and unusual punishment) are illegal (and immoral) however you choose to dice it up.
Sharing of this information has long been rumored (IIRC, in one or more of James Bamford's books/articles [who has been writing about this for decades]). Long before PRISM, there was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON It has a common database amongst all participating countries.
The political hand waving that the U.S. (or England) "doesn't spy on its citizens" is gotten around by having another country do it for them (e.g. England/Canada is free to intercept U.S. citizen communications (e.g. they're "foreigners" to Canada) and vice-versa). It all goes into a common database and/or is shared.
Now, given that as a pretext, there is no way to tell if the data was gleaned by Canada on U.S. citizens [or U.S. on Canadian citizens] or was truly domestic spying on one's own citizens. As a convenience, just do it yourself, but if you get caught, claim it was put in the database by another country.
In the end, does that technicality really matter that much when discussing the merits vs. ethics?
Like a good neighbor, fsck is there
The information often runs contrary to popular opinion, political beliefs, common misbelief, or some other aspect. Sometimes what I post is just inconvenient for a particularly popular rant. No matter.
While it's no doubt convenient to pigeon hole all your would-be detractors as irrational, with your 'only three waterboarded' post you've indicated quite clearly that you're prepared to cherry pick information/articles to fit your narrative, which is that of the US intelligence services and government being reasonable and honourable when it comes to these matters. (torture etc.)
I would merely suggest that taking what they say at face value is naive in the extreme, given all the stuff they've been shown to have already lied about. That, and the fact that deception is basically their whole 'thing'. ;)
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
The claim is that the US waterboarded three people. Libya is not the US.
...but I imagine you've already chosen who you prefer to believe.
I imagine that works both ways. I would be curious to know your thoughts on the fact that al Qaida training materials have been found in which they teach their members to lie about the conditions of their captivity, to fabricate claims of torture and abuse. Does that ever enter into your thinking? Do you ever view their claims with skepticism, or only those of Western nations?
It is also good to not forget that the Islamist extremists that resort to terrorism have an ideological base in the Islamist movement, and that the Islamist movement has allies in the West.
The Leftist-Islamist Alliance in Pictures
Leftist-Islamist Alliance against the West
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
This fits with reports that UK/USA have spied on the UN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spying_on_the_United_Nations
I must say I prefer it when leaks go through Wikileaks. In that case, I can see the whole leaked document for myself, rather than getting two paltry screenshots from the Guardian.
You have three choices: (1) either you comply with US political pressure, (2) you become powerful enough yourself, or (3) you ally yourself with other countries opposed to US foreign policy. You seem to want all the benefits of (1) without the obligations and reciprocity that come with it. Sorry, can't have that.
For example, if you want the US to provide you with intelligence, you need to provide the US with intelligence. And US intelligence is more useful to you than the other way around. Ditto for free trade. You want to export your goods without hassles? Then you need to let other countries export to yours without hassles.
Your leaders are choosing a couple of percent of economic growth plus a tiny increase in security over your privacy and autonomy, and they are doing it because your voters would kick them out of office if they didn't. And US politicians are making the same choices for the same reasons: people complain about the negative consequences, but they'd complain even more if politicians chose differently.
Yes, we are. We got into this position after enduring centuries of European imperialism, and European military and intelligence dominance. And the way we got into that position was because Europe self-destructed and then after the war was content to let the US run its affairs while it relaxed for a while. And I include Australia and NZ under "European imperialism"; don't fancy yourself as being somehow separate from that.
Who are you kidding? European obsession with, arrogance towards, and dislike of, the US has been around, with brief interruptions, since the US was founded. Don't expect American voters to suddenly start caring after two centuries of European intellectuals getting their panties in a knot.
Having said that, in many ways, many Americans dislike the same things about the US government that the Europeans dislike about the US government, and hopefully we can emphasize privacy and civil liberties more in future elections. But how we deal with that is our business, not yours. Go fix your own country, it seems to need it.
an anonymous reader links to a story at The Guardian about some good old fashioned friendly interception
It's funny the way they phrase things when governments are involved. If you steal your neighbor's car, they won't call it a "friendly theft" just because you were on good terms prior to the theft.
Congratulations, you've found some British humour.
The summary could have been improved by mentioning the G8 summit starts in Northern Ireland today.
It's funny the way they phrase things when governments are involved. If you steal your neighbor's car, they won't call it a "friendly theft" just because you were on good terms prior to the theft.
Oh yeah? Tell Flanders that.
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
Because bad as China may be, they aren't going to buckle to US pressure. Whether they've yet come the point where they feel enough solidarity with the US elites that they would rather see him punished, remains to be seen.
There's also the little matter of Hong Kong's political freedom. Which may be an illusion - but is it worth dispelling that illusion just to get at a commoner embarrassing your rival?
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
GCHQ is a British organization. How would Snowden get copies of their plans, if there are in fact legitimate? He seems to be making some mighty big claims for having been employed as an employee of an NSA contractor for three months.
One might be tempted to suspect that the NSA is 100% to be trusted when it comes to securing those giant piles 'o data they are Hoovering up, even in the (vanishingly unlikely) event that they are, as they claim, actually not doing anything illicit with them themselves.
This comment ought to be read in the voice of Cartman.
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Those were soldiers run amok over a short period of time. A number of them went to jail. They were criminals, and were treated as such.
Agree "following orders" is not a valid excuse for war crimes. However that's only half the story, it has been common knowledge since the 70's that normal humans will behave like a death camp guard/inmate if they find themselves in the right environment, there was even a movie about it. The catch 22 from those famous experiments? - Turns out the more you believe that you are incapable of acting like a dungeon master/slave the more likely you will do so if you find yourself in the right social environment for what is essentially (but uncomfortably) "normal human behavior" to emerge.
While the army were busy identifying scapegoats for prosecution did any of them stop to wonder why all the "bad apples" were found in the same small barrel, a remarkable "coincidence", no? The Iraq prison system of which we speak could not have created a real life "stanford prison" environment any better if they had done so on purpose. So the (multi-part) question was (and still is): Who set up the system that created this environment? Why did they not know the first thing about the psychology of imprisonment? Or if they did, why aren't they in jail?
Having said that, any army would instantly be mowed down on the battle field if it did not take full advantage of it's soldiers natural ability to dehumanize the enemy.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Lets go down the 2009 list: .... and their trade deals :) :)
Argentina/Brazil - they should know what the GCHQ did in the Falklands war and the great telco help the NSA/CIA gave during the 1970's dirty war...
Canada/Australia/South Korea/Turkey - the GCHQ/NSA's helpers should have been very aware of what the USA and GCHQ can do...
China - did they really just forget the GCHQ efforts in Okinawa, Little Sai Wan?
France, Italy, Germany - in NATO - they should know what the NSA and GCHQ did to them
India- recall Perkar on Ceylon?
Indonesia - did they forget what Singapore gave the GCHQ in the past?
Japan -GCHQ efforts in Okinawa?
Mexico - recall the Security Council efforts re Iraq?
Russia -FSB has unique insight into all of the UK efforts
Saudi Arabia - did they not recall the GCHQ's efforts in the Yemen Civil War?
South Africa -recall Silvermine?
Why would any of the above with generation awareness of working with or been under GCHQ collections methods really just let their staff wonder over to 'free' wifi in a foreign country and chat with home?
Are they really unaware of email interception programmes and key-logging software?
Did they not understand the help Canada based hardware and software firms must give the GCHQ/NSA- thats the CSEC or CSE...
Or do they bring teams dedicated in generating junk that the GCHQ passes onto their masters and everybody is happy
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Because everybody loves outsourcing!
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Thank you for illustrating my point about European arrogance again. Kind of ironic that you use a US cultural symbol.
Oh yeah? Tell Flanders that.
The entire province? Or just a few people in particular?
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
"#211,944? I'm not familiar with it."
"Of course you aren't, senator. "You" haven't written it yet."
Fixed for unfortunate truth
Joy! Beautiful spark of the gods!
Where does this come from? I'm a French and I don't hear around me, everyday, non-stop American bashing. Quite the contrary: people like the Hollywood movies, US pop stars or American brands. France is the second largest fast-food consumer market after the US (per person, of course, since we are only 60-odd million people). You get the usual "Americans are fat" remark, which I think it's just a simple fact.
However as soon as I hop onto a forum, I will systematically end up reading some joke or other about "France surrenders, lol!" or being called "frogs" and whatnot. Not to mention the "we saved them in WW2!" comments, completely ignoring the reasons of that happening, or that without France there wouldn't be a US of A to begin with. But we don't make jokes about that over here. Maybe 50 years following Independance Day the French would do it, I don't know (but I think they were too busy chopping heads off).
Anyway, I travel a lot in Europe and Middle-East (Israel, really) as a network engineering consultant, and the places where I've been that were surprisingly anti-American was the UK and Quebec. These are the only places where people were actually anti-American for more than just jesting (not all of them, but many, and so much more than in the rest of Europe).
So, yeah, I don't think Europe is 'arrogant' towards the US. If anything we don't like you being so arrogant yourself (what with "Land of the Free" and other pre-made propaganda, implying the rest of the West is so bad to live in).
Yet most people here are swallowing his tales hook, line, and sinker.
The naive and credulous folks at the Guardian could sure use a hard-nosed skeptic like yourself. But then you believed the CIA only waterboarding three people so I guess it evens out.
Also, they're not just 'tales' are they? He's provided documentation.
Nice to see someone sticking up for the poor beleaguered intelligence services.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
I might suspect him of motivated reasoning but to accuse him of being a shill is very premature and overly paranoid in my opinion. NSA paying people to write posts on Slashdot? Please...
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
I have no problem with homosexuals, but I do wish they'd shut up from time to time (well, I'm sure other Slashdotters could say the same about me too :) )
I suspect they might feel the same way about heterosexuals.
Seriously, look at all the heterosexual references in media. I think gays have more cause to complain.
The cat's out of the bag now. It won't be long before they're all at it.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
What makes you think the crime rates are proportional to the number of CCTV cameras? Or that crime in the states is because of guns? Lots of countries with just as many guns have even lower crime rates than the UK. But you wouldn't know that, because you've got a narrative and reading things that contradict your narrative just feels 'bad' doesn't it?
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
What a massive pile of bollocks. Flush out your headgear mate.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
elements within the Obama Regime
Funny how simply that one little turn of phrase highlights exactly what you're all about.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Discussions are more interesting when they are two sided and have at least occasional references to facts.
The documentation Snowden has provided so far are pretty much PowerPoint slides. There is no faking that I guess.
If more than 3 people were waterboarded, you might think that would have come out in the last 10 years. It seems like little else hasn't.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
While it's no doubt convenient to pigeon hole all your would-be detractors as irrational,
I didn't actually write that, and don't believe that is true. It is true that many people on Slashdot aren't well informed on subjects like this and post nonsense.
with your 'only three waterboarded' post you've indicated quite clearly that you're prepared to cherry pick information/articles to fit your narrative
There aren't a lot of correct numbers to "cherry pick" from. If you have data to show differently I would love to see it.
which is that of the US intelligence services and government being reasonable and honourable when it comes to these matters. (torture etc.)
I think that the US intelligence services will generally operate in accordance with the law. In practice that can mean something rather different than other people know or suppose. One of the biggest sources if misbelief about that is confusing the standards of criminal law with those of the Law of War and aspects of national security law. They are different bodies of law, and have different standards. Beyond that, many people ignore the very existence of the Law of War.
I also find it odd that on Slashdot many in effect take statements by al Qaida and company at face value when they make allegations but do not extend any credibility to their own democratic governments. Totalitarian extremist terrorists have more credible than democratically elected governments with oversight on its operations? Someone is ready for a new overlord. I doubt they would care for it in practice. Few Muslims do when they get a taste of the al Qaida imposed lifestyle.
... given all the stuff they've been shown to have already lied about. That, and the fact that deception is basically their whole 'thing'.
NSA would prefer to not say anything. And it is worth remembering that the US is at war with al Qaida and company.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
yeah, I am aware...it's not really about nation/states or polities...
it's spheres of influence among oligarchs...usually rich people with some connection to english or dutch royalty or the catholic church...or the saudis...
in this context, the 'government' is the people's best friend...democracy is our weapon against oligarchy
Thank you Dave Raggett
See, some people find that arrogant. It could be read as "we're so many miles ahead of you, your opinion doesn't really matter." So when you say Europe is arrogant, I find the irony quite funny.
I also wanted to mention that I'm very proud to meet you, Ron Swanson!
To think that for all these years I had assumed these types of conferences are just well-publicized cocktail parties. Maybe that's the most revealing part of this new round of disclosures. But then again, those upper-crust Brits have been known to take their parties (and their spying) pretty seriously...
>When the day comes that this information is obtained and used against the same politicians who voted for it, it will be some delicious comeuppance.
I really don't think you quite get how that day would work.
"Senator, PRISM has discovered an email of you admitting to having a gay lover in college, something that would make you completely unelectable in this country for some reason."
"Ahh. Johnny Ten Inches. Yes, well, I admit to that. How much is it going to cost for this to go away?"
"We have all the money we need, but it would sure be nice if that new NSA data seizure legislation in the pipeline got a yes vote. #211,944 if I recall."
"#211,944? I'm not familiar with it."
"Of course you aren't, senator. We haven't written it yet."
You are describing authorized use by those officials who have access to the system.
We were talking about unauthorized use by outside attackers who manage to compromise said system. The post to which I replied spelled this out explicitly and I quoted that in my own post.
See how simple that is?
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
I think you miss his point. Homosexuality is ancillary to the problem it was just an example, it's that something- anything- could be discovered and used against the politician or anyone else for that matter.
That's the problem with this media-driven urge to view the entire world through the lens of group identity. It becomes a fixation, and people who allow their thought process to be a product of media will miss your clearly-stated point because of it.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
If you steal your neighbor's car, they won't call it a "friendly theft" just because you were on good terms prior to the theft.
Except that nothing was stolen. It is like downloading a movie. Copying is not stealing. Countries spy on each other, friend or foe. It is normal and expected.
That's a fine job of redundantly restating my sentence while also pointing out the obvious.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Question:
ewenmacaskill 17 June 2013 3:07pm
I should have asked you this when I saw you but never got round to it........Why did you just not fly direct to Iceland if that is your preferred country for asylum?
Answer:
Leaving the US was an incredible risk, as NSA employees must declare their foreign travel 30 days in advance and are monitored. There was a distinct possibility I would be interdicted en route, so I had to travel with no advance booking to a country with the cultural and legal framework to allow me to work without being immediately detained. Hong Kong provided that. Iceland could be pushed harder, quicker, before the public could have a chance to make their feelings known, and I would not put that past the current US administration.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
I'd mod you up if I hadn't already contributed to this topic.
I have little doubt the Her Majesty's GCHQ intelligence service remains completely and unreservedly British, and that British interests, though often in common, are separate from American interests.
You seem to have avoided declaring that GCHQ's interests and British interests are the same thing. Given the 13+ year drive to impose Stasi 2.0, I'd have to agree. Though, it should be pointed it, there is an ongoing internal disagreement in MI5 over this.
Menwith Hill is not a 'major GCHQ installation', it is RAF owned land and leased to the US where it is operated by the NSA and houses a USAF Intelligence Squadron. If you had said "furthermore it's also well known that a Major NSA installation, Menwith Hill, actually has GCHQ officers" then the rest of your argument may have had weight, but you're supporting it with an incorrect statement from the outset.
One mustn't overlook the change in social values that makes formerly taboo subjects acceptable in ordinary conversation.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
To expect anything less than the worse from the NSA/CIA/FBI/DEA... etc is just a little naive.
I think your concept of "anything less than the worse" is poorly calibrated.
Taliban Hangs Afghan Boy, 7, for Spying
17 Beheaded in Taliban-Controlled Afghanistan for Attending Wedding Party with Dancing
Torture, Al-Qaeda Style
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I regret to inform you that you don't know what you are talking about.
In their mind, Al Qaida is fighting on behalf of, and to reestablish, the Islamic Caliphate government that was dissolved in 1923 after the fall of the Ottoman empire. The nonsense about "never been chosen to represent a nation of people" would make the silly claim that any modern insurgency to overthrow a government by violent means isn't really a war.
The "War on Terror" is symbolic language, just like the "War on Fascism" in WW2. It is ridiculous that supposedly educated people can't figure that out. The Authorization for Use of Military Force makes it clear who the US is fighting again, and that it is at war. It is well settled law that such an authorization is legally equivalent to a declaration of war.
You can tell al Qaida and the Taliban are not ordinary criminals since they actually ran the country of Afghanistan, and have been trying to overthrow several others. The 9/11 attack is the only time that the self-defense provision of the NATO treaty has been invoked following an attack. NATO aircraft flew over American cities to protect them. The Taliban and al Qaida use heavy weapons and have been organized at the brigade level. They are regularly engaged by the US Air Force which is targeting them with missiles and dropping large bombs upon them. This isn't a problem with traffic stops gone bad, or a gang of bank robbers, or even the Crips and the Bloods.
Bin Laden was an utter failure. He made the classic mistake of dictators and would-be dictators in attacking the United States. The additional cost of the war is a pittance in the total federal budget. His organization is very badly damaged. There has been little if any genuine loss of real freedom, and modest impositions on privacy. The true threats in terms of spending come from the enormous growth in social welfare programs, and the damaged economy which is exacerbated by the current administrations over-regulation.
You've got things almost entirely wrong. It doesn't help that you get your news and views from fringe sites. Maybe you should try a few different ones.
National Review
The Weekly Standard
PJ Media
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
LOL... You would make a great timeshare salesman.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
One mustn't overlook the change in social values that makes formerly taboo subjects acceptable in ordinary conversation.
Public displays of affection used to be taboo regardless of whether your were straight, gay, or into animals. There's a lot of "we're in your face to be in your face" these days, and pretty much everyone is doing it regardless that it pushes other people outside their comfort zones, and the other people sometimes react violently to what is, in effect, an act of assault.
If something is outside your comfort zone, but you don't have to actively acknowledge it, then social friction is vastly reduced compared to being held upside down with your head in the toilet, which is something you'd be more or less forced to acknowledge, and likely, react to.
So uh, let me get your version of events right... he flew to Hong Kong, and then... made download copies of government laptops? What?
I thought Flanders had more of a bike theft problem than car theft problem. They don't seem to think it is very friendly, either, judging from the size of the bike chains they use.
And why would this guy go to Hong Kong of all the places he could go?
Direct flights to Moscow?
Before that, the US Army found one of their own officers guilty of waterboarding during the Spanish-American War.
Just because you don't like the idea of Congress declaring war on non-state parties, and in this case on parties not named in the declaration but rather whoever the Executive certifies as meeting the conditions of the declarations... doesn't keep that from being what happened.
And in particular, your claim that we "cannot" be at war... with who we've been at war for 12 years... is kinda strange. At this point I would think it is clear that we can. And are.
I do trust politicians. I've always trusted and voted for Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) who was blowing the whistle on this stuff for years.
I would think that data sharing between NSA and GCHQ, to the extent that it exists, is on a strictly controlled, only what is agreed to basis, not a wide open file sharing agreement.
You fail to distinguish between secrets that are about the US Government, and secrets that are about everybody else. The secrets about everybody else, the stuff that has to be collected through intelligence work, is openly shared. As in wide open file sharing. The information that is secret but is internal data of the US Government, that is partitioned off and secured and only shared through specific channels.
Since we are talking about TOP SECRET data here I can conclude one of two things. You may have either just violated a secrecy agreement, which I doubt, or you don't know what you are talking about. Being has I just corrected you on the meaning of "social welfare" programs, I'm betting on the later. But feel free to expound on the nature of classified networks if you care to - not that I would advise it.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell