Next SurfaceRT To Come With Qualcomm Snapdragon 800, LTE

Whoopee? by drinkypoo · 2013-06-20 01:29 · Score: 4, Funny

Bloomberg is now reporting that Microsoft is fast at work on the next Surface RT which will replace the current Tegra 3 with a Qualcomm Snapdragon 800 chip

Will they also replace Windows RT with Windows? Because it seems awfully like they replaced Windows with new Folger's Crystals, and you can taste the difference.

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Re:Whoopee? by DavidD_CA · 2013-06-20 03:16 · Score: 1

The current Surface Pro does come with Windows 8 (the full version) and a Intel Core i5 Processor.

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-David
Re:Whoopee? by JBMcB · 2013-06-20 04:59 · Score: 1

A better analogy would be they replaced your regular coffee with a mug of water and a picture of a cup of coffee. It looks somewhat like Windows but underneath it's nothing like windows.

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Re:Whoopee? by cbhacking · 2013-06-20 06:09 · Score: 1

The funny thing is, it's actually exactly the other way around. The usual complaint about Win8 (and Windows RT) is that it doesn't look like Windows. However, "underneath" it's exactly Windows, aside from running on ARM (and you may be too young to remember, but the NT family - which includes Win7 and Win8 - has always come on multiple architectures; with NT6.2 they dropped Itanium and picked up ARM). Remove the restriction to Microsoft-signed binaries on the desktop, and you have a decent Windows machine which simply requires that native apps be recompiled first (.NET apps run on-modified, and there's even some hacked-up support for Java and Python).

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Re:Whoopee? by vidnet · 2013-06-20 06:19 · Score: 2

Have you tried Windows 8 on a tablet?
While Surface Pro is bulky and has a terrible battery life, the Windows 8 tablet experience is actually really good. It's powerful enough to run Visual Studio when docked, lighter than many laptops for carrying around, and has a good touch interface and stylus for using it on the subway or in meetings.
And there is no separation. If you want to fix a bug on the subway or navigate Youtube left-handed by touch while eating lunch at your desk, you can.
I used to be a .NET consultant, and I would have loved a Surface Pro.
Of course, I'm one of those freaks who thought Maemo phones were awesome because you could write a shell script in vim if you wanted to. YMMV.
Re:Whoopee? by Solandri · 2013-06-20 07:14 · Score: 1

Microsoft had to make RT to hedge their bets. Regardless of whether it succeeds or fails, it needed to be made.

10 years ago everyone knew PDAs and phones were going to converge. They just didn't know if PDAs would gain phone calling capabilities, or if phones would get a PDA grafted onto them. It turned out to be the latter.

Similarly, everyone today knows these mobile computing devices and PCs are going to converge. Well, a portion of the PC fanbase is in denial. But I think everyone else, at least in the back of their minds, realizes that soon everything they do on a PC could be done on a tablet or phone if you just interface a real keyboard, mouse, and display to it. They're just unsure if the winner is going to be ARM (increasing the performance of its low-Wattage processors) or Intel (decreasing the Wattage of their high-performance processors).

As an OS company, Microsoft doesn't really care who wins that particular hardware war. So they had to hedge their bets and make a version of Windows for ARM - aka Windows RT. That way regardless of whether ARM or Intel wins, Microsoft can continue to sell Windows.
Re:Whoopee? by JBMcB · 2013-06-20 09:20 · Score: 1

However, "underneath" it's exactly Windows, aside from running on ARM
... And missing just about every Windows UI library that's been around for 20 years.

(and you may be too young to remember, but the NT family - which includes Win7 and Win8 - has always come on multiple architectures
By "multiple" you mean x86-32, x86-64 and IA64, right? Or do you mean further back when NT4 ran on MIPS, Solaris, and Power?

Remove the restriction to Microsoft-signed binaries on the desktop, and you have a decent Windows machine which simply requires that native apps be recompiled first
In theory, yes, assuming you aren't using any x86 platform-specific calls, or optimizations, or system components wholesale deprecated by RT, or any UI other than Metro.

(.NET apps run on-modified, and there's even some hacked-up support for Java and Python).
Kinda sorta, see above.

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My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.

Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by intermodal · 2013-06-20 01:34 · Score: 1

but it will still be an ARM version of Win8 that isn't compatible with what people want to run right now.

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Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by CastrTroy · 2013-06-20 01:58 · Score: 2

Microsoft really gets a a hard time trying to change anything. When Apple dropped OS9 support when moving to OSX, or when they dropped PowerPC support moving to X86, or when they created a tablet that wasn't compatible with their desktop operating system, nobody did this much complaining. But everytime MS tries to do anything that changes anything in anyway people say they are making bad decisions. ARM will have to get a lot faster before they can run real Windows and all the standard Windows applications on it. I really think the only major failings of their Surface line is that it's a little to expensive for what it is. Surface RT would be nice if the price was a little closer to the Nexus 7 than it is to the iPad, and their Surface Pro should be a little close in price to the iPad. But I think they got the basic idea and concept right.

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Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by ArcadeMan · 2013-06-20 02:18 · Score: 2

The problem is the name. Why call it "Windows-whatever" if it can't run Windows applications?
I would have called the OS "Doors". The marketing department would have a field day with this. "Open new Doors to exciting possibilities" and other bullshit.

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Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by intermodal · 2013-06-20 02:37 · Score: 1

It's not that they're trying to change anything. It's that they're doing nothing to dispel the serious misperception that using the name Windows on it creates. That's a problem and will cost them big when people realize they've bought a device based on false impressions.

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Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-20 03:05 · Score: 1

It is because Microsoft's main strength has been its backwards compatibility. You don't buy an Apple for compatibility. You buy it for other reasons. Those reasons stay the same even when you change processor. People buy Windows because it runs Windows programs. They don't buy it because it's simple or powerful or any other reason.
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by gl4ss · 2013-06-20 03:13 · Score: 1

umm in each of those cases they didn't just outright drop support. it took several releases for support for the old to die.
surface wouldn't be that bad if you could port windows ce apps to it.. that's what is wrong with surface rt.
they should have called the os on surface rt something like "Metros" or Meteor or some shit like that. not windows.

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Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-20 03:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

The baffling thing is that RT could be alright. It could run re-compiled apps from anyone. Legacy software would be a problem, but anything actively developed would be ported with little effort. That would rock! There is actually a lot of really useful OSS software for windows. .. But you can't do this. You can, if you root the device. But it's unsupported.
Instead, MS wants you to buy software only through their app store. Just like apple devices. Trouble is, there is already a very active and very large development community for apple. Why would I buy an RT pad over an ipad?
The answer is there isn't. And there isn't for anyone else either. Thats why nobody is buying them. You can't beat the ipad by being the same as it. Nobody is better at being apple, than apple. You have to be better, or there is no reason to switch.
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by chopthechops · 2013-06-20 03:29 · Score: 2

Microsoft really gets a a hard time trying to change anything. When Apple dropped OS9 support when moving to OSX, or when they dropped PowerPC support moving to X86, or when they created a tablet that wasn't compatible with their desktop operating system, nobody did this much complaining.

When Apple dropped Mac OS 9 it was after around five years of providing the ability to run OS 9 applications via the 'Classic Environment' emulation layer on OS X 10.0 through to 10.4. When they dropped Power PC support you could continue to run PPC OS X applications on Intel OS X via Rosetta for around six years (10.4 through to 10.6). Although such architecture changes were not seamless there were quite lengthy transitional phases to lessen the impact on end users and developers.
When Apple created the iPad it was specifically designed for the Apple ecosystem to work along side existing products. The concept of iOS being 'incompatible' with OS X does not apply because they power two complimentary products families running on distinctly different hardware platforms, used for distinctly different purposes. Whether you love or hate Apple you cannot accuse them of forcing rapid change on their customers as Microsoft has done with Surface RT/Win8/Metro/Windows store and it's associated limitations, incompatibilities, inconveniences and plain old butt-ugliness.
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by hairyfeet · 2013-06-20 04:26 · Score: 1

That is because the appleites bought Apple hardware to run Apple software, there was really only a small handful of popular non Apple produced software and it was the kind of stuff that was sold yearly like the DTP software.
MSFT is the exact opposite, people have HUGE piles of money investing in windows X86 software and damned near NONE of it was made by MSFT, and the ones it was made by? Isn't gonna kiss Ballmer's sweaty ass and hand over 30% of all their sales just to be put in their lousy appstore,especially when everything to do with Windows 8 has been a SuperVistaBomb.
I can't say as I feel sorry for 'em, they have been ignoring their users and giving us retail guys the finger for years, now their arrogance and Ballmer's delusion that he can slap a paintjob on a Pinto and sell it for Porsche money is torpedoing the company. Maybe when Ballmer has pissed away enough billions the board will revolt and get rid of his sorry ass and bring somebody in that will listen, until then stick with Win 7 and avoid anything with Metro like the STD that it is. Ironic that spellcheck keeps trying to turn Ballmer's name into embalmer, since he does seem to be doing his best to kill MSFT.

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Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 04:45 · Score: 1

> The problem is the name. Why call it "Windows-whatever" if it can't run Windows applications?
Guessing, but in the hopes that uneducated people will buy it thinking it's Windows?

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by drinkypoo · 2013-06-20 04:52 · Score: 1

I would have called the OS "Doors".
I AM THE LIZARD KING! *jumps off a chair*

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by domboy · 2013-06-20 05:39 · Score: 1

The baffling thing is that RT could be alright. It could run re-compiled apps from anyone. Legacy software would be a problem, but anything actively developed would be ported with little effort. That would rock! There is actually a lot of really useful OSS software for windows. .. But you can't do this. You can, if you root the device. But it's unsupported.
That's what I've been saying. Microsoft made some really bone-headed decisions with Windows on ARM. It should have just been a simple recompile of Windows 8/8 Pro. That would have been so much better. A big thanks to the fine folks at XDA developer forums for figuring out how to change the executable signing requirement, and for all the work they've done recompiling win32 apps for ARM. Their work has made my Surface RT so much more useful. Actually, I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. Some .NET 4 apps just work unmodified. Unfortunately there is no guarantee MS won't patch what makes this "jailbreak" work in the future. That'd be a sad day.
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by gtall · 2013-06-20 05:39 · Score: 1

When Apple moved from OS9 to OSX, you could still run OS9 in a padded cell. From PowerPC to X86, you could run both executables up through 10.4 or 10.5. Apple never claimed their iThings were little Macs, in fact they claimed they were a new kind of device, or an old one done well this time.
MS came out with something they called windows but wasn't because it couldn't run the same apps. And even the x86 version of their Surface is a frankendevice...see, it isn't a lap top, it isn't a pad, it's both. Only a frankenexecutive produce such an alleged innovation.
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by cbhacking · 2013-06-20 06:14 · Score: 2

The silly thing is, aside from literally a single flag in the kernel*, it *is* just a simple recompile of Win8. Dig into that "jailbreak" on XDA-Devs, and you'll see it really is just a single value that needs to be changed. Microsoft really should have made a way for users to do that themselves. I can understand the value to some people of having a very locked-down system where all third-party code runs in a sandbox, but sometimes I want to run third-party code that *isn't* going to run in a sandbox, dammit!

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There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by domboy · 2013-06-20 07:26 · Score: 1

Yeah, I've been following the XDA "jailbreak" almost from its inception. My first thought after I heard the RT desktop was going to be restricted was "I hope somebody finds a way around that". I'm not a serious coder so I don't understand some of the more complex debugging they posted, but I got enough to know I wouldn't have been able to come up with that on my own that's for sure. I totally agree, the signing requirement should be something we as end users can change, maybe via group policy or even a registry change would be better. We shouldn't have to hack it to be able to run Windows programs!!
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by unixisc · 2013-06-20 07:27 · Score: 1

Microsoft really gets a a hard time trying to change anything. When Apple dropped OS9 support when moving to OSX, or when they dropped PowerPC support moving to X86, or when they created a tablet that wasn't compatible with their desktop operating system, nobody did this much complaining. But everytime MS tries to do anything that changes anything in anyway people say they are making bad decisions. ARM will have to get a lot faster before they can run real Windows and all the standard Windows applications on it. I really think the only major failings of their Surface line is that it's a little to expensive for what it is. Surface RT would be nice if the price was a little closer to the Nexus 7 than it is to the iPad, and their Surface Pro should be a little close in price to the iPad. But I think they got the basic idea and concept right.
Actually, Apple put a great deal of effort in the migration from Motorola 68k to PPC, and the initial Power Macs based on the PPC601 and 604 had the OS ported, and supported 68k apps through emulation. Apple also worked w/ ISVs in porting those apps from 68k to the 601, and that was how a number of them saw their speeds improve. As for the move from PPC to x86, they had already been working on x86 in parallel to PPC, and moreover, NEXTSTEP already existed on x86 to begin with. As a result, the transition from PPC to x86 was a lot smoother than 68k to PPC.
As for the tablet OS, it was and is a completely different thing, so it's not meant to be compatible to Macs - being inter-operable is good enough. That's why the iPads are based on the A3 and above, while Macs are based on the x86s. Although there was some speculation of Apple using their A series CPUs to make the Macs as well, which after so many transitions would be relatively painless.
But the main difference b/w Apple & Microsoft is that Apple doesn't have even a fraction of Microsoft's installed base, which is why they can yank such changes as and when they like. It would be a very different story if they came up w/ an iPad that didn't run older iOS apps (although, for Apple, the converse is okay - an old iPod not being upgradable to the latest iOS, or not being able to run newer apps). Microsoft, OTOH, has to support its installed base, otherwise there is no compelling reason to prefer it to niche platforms. Windows on ARM is even more niche than NT on RISC ever was, and if one is going to buy something that's not Windows compatible on a tablet, an Android is an automatic choice, but even without it, there is no reason not to prefer something like Ubuntu or Plasma Active to the Surface.
Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by TheRaven64 · 2013-06-20 07:48 · Score: 1

Apple had an advantage with their CPU migration: the new CPU was much faster than the old one. The PowerPC was introduced at 60MHz, whereas the fastest 68040 that they sold was 40MHz and clock-for-clock the PowerPC was faster. When they switched to Intel, their fastest laptops had a 1.67GHz G4 and were replaced by Core Duos starting at 1.84GHz. The G4 was largely limited by memory bandwidth at high speeds. In both cases, emulated code on the new machines ran slightly slower than it had on the fastest Mac with the older architecture (except for the G5 desktops, but they were very expensive). If you skipped the generation immediately before the switch, your apps all ran faster, even if they were all emulated. Once you switched to native code for the new architecture, things got even faster.
For Microsoft moving to ARM, they're okay for .NET binaries, because these are JIT compiled for the current target, although they're likely to be slower than on x86, but emulated programs will be slower. The advantage of ARM is power efficiency, not raw speed. If you run emulated code, then you lose this benefit. They could ship an x86 emulator (they acquired one when they bought VirtualPC), but they'd end up running the Win32 apps very slowly and people would complain.

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Re:Microsoft can do whatever they want to it... by webheaded · 2013-06-21 11:53 · Score: 1

The only reason anyone uses Windows is to run Windows apps. If I want tablet stuff, Android does it better. They've taken a Windows OS, removed the ability to run Windows programs, and tried to force everyone to get stuff from their store so that they can get a cut and so that they can control what is allowed to be in said store. Why on Earth would I want to encourage that? If they let me side load, that would be one thing and I could simply opt out of the store, but you can't. On top of that, they barely have shit in that store anyway. So now I'm getting a "Windows" tablet that can't do shit because no one develops for RT. Everyone develops for Android and iOS. If they TRULY wanted to move the platform forward, they would allow side loading and they would continue compatibility with Win32.

If I can't install programs the way I always have (without any input from Microsoft), then they can take their OS and shove it up their asses.

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Re:This is great by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-20 01:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

Here ladies and gentlemen, we have a Reputation Manager hard at work.

High user number, low post count, all of which praise MS in some way.

The check's in the post.

Was performance the problem? by Henriok · 2013-06-20 01:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

Even though increased hardware performance like computing power, features and increased battery life certainly won't hurt, performance isn't really the problem with Windows RT tablets now is it?

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- Henrik

- when the Shadows descend -

Re:Was performance the problem? by tutufan · 2013-06-20 02:13 · Score: 1

Yes, the time it was taking to port Linux onto it was too long...
Re:Was performance the problem? by rsmith-mac · 2013-06-20 02:23 · Score: 1

Tegra 3 wasn't bad. But on Surface RT there were also times where it was clearly not up to the task of running Windows software.

Simply typing quickly in Microsoft Word maxes the single threaded performance of Tegra 3's ARM Cortex A9 cores. I've seen CPU usage a high as 50% when typing very quickly, but mostly it tends to sit between 20 - 40%. Switch to notepad and max CPU utilization drops to sub 10%. This says more about Office 2013 than the performance of NVIDIA's Tegra 3, but there are not a whole lot of spare CPU cycles to go around with Surface.
Re:Was performance the problem? by hairyfeet · 2013-06-20 05:48 · Score: 1

And people wonder why I kept Office 2K and use it on my netbook. With the compatibility pack i can open just about any Office doc no problem, yet the entire install was less than 600Mb and word takes up less than 30Mb and zero CPU, even on the Bobcat APU.
You place office 2K7 or 2K10 beside office 2K and you realize just how fricking bloated office has become, my little APU netbook with office 2K can do tasks faster than my hexacore with office 2K7, its THAT bloated.

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So what? by JDG1980 · 2013-06-20 01:41 · Score: 2

Until and unless they change "Windows" RT so that it lets non-Microsoft applications run on the desktop, no one cares. People aren't writing applications for Metro and aren't going to start. If they opened up the desktop, then at least many existing programs would work with just a recompile.

Why are the EU antitrust authorities letting them get away with this, anyway? (I'd ask the same about the US, but for all intents and purposes we don't *have* antitrust authorities.)

Re:So what? by Missing.Matter · 2013-06-20 02:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

Until and unless they change "Windows" RT so that it lets non-Microsoft applications run on the desktop, no one cares.
There are plenty of Windows 8 tablets out there that do exactly this. Windows RT is for people who want an iPad analogue. i.e. they have no want or need to install legacy applications on their tablet.

People aren't writing applications for Metro and aren't going to start.
There are currently 92,000 apps in the Windows store, and it's growing at an average rate of 591 apps per day. Using Apple's latest figures (from WWDC) for the iPad, the iPad appstore is growing at an average of 435 apps per day. This also includes some double counting for "free" and "paid" versions, which the Windows app store bundles into one app.

Why are the EU antitrust authorities letting them get away with this, anyway?
iPad works the same way. They have no problem with iPad, which has 70% of the tablet market share, so why should they have a problem with Windows RT?
Re:So what? by drinkypoo · 2013-06-20 02:25 · Score: 1

Why are the EU antitrust authorities letting them get away with this, anyway?
Because Microsoft has been in mobile for ages and is nowhere near a monopoly there. Not even vaguely close. They have relatively little influence over the mobile market and what little they have traditionally had was related to their influence over the corporate market.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:So what? by JDG1980 · 2013-06-20 02:39 · Score: 1

But they are attempting to use their monopoly on the desktop to leverage themselves into a better position in the mobile market (via Metro). Using a monopoly to leverage yourself into a different market is one of the things traditionally prohibited by antitrust law.
Re:So what? by chopthechops · 2013-06-20 02:43 · Score: 1

There are plenty of Windows 8 tablets out there that do exactly this. Windows RT is for people who want an iPad analogue. i.e. they have no want or need to install legacy applications on their tablet.
Except that people who want an iPad analogue just buy an iPad because they want to run iPad apps. You don't buy a product because of it's lack of compatibility with Windows.
Re:So what? by drinkypoo · 2013-06-20 02:47 · Score: 1

But they are attempting to use their monopoly on the desktop to leverage themselves into a better position in the mobile market (via Metro). Using a monopoly to leverage yourself into a different market is one of the things traditionally prohibited by antitrust law.
Yes, and if they are actually ever successful at it, then I'm sure the EU will do something about it. As long as they continue to fail spectacularly, there's no money in taking them to court. They can only justify fining them massively if they have actually benefited.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:So what? by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2013-06-20 03:12 · Score: 1

There are currently 92,000 apps in the Windows store, and it's growing at an average rate of 591 apps per day. Using Apple's latest figures (from WWDC) for the iPad, the iPad appstore is growing at an average of 435 apps per day. This also includes some double counting for "free" and "paid" versions, which the Windows app store bundles into one app.
It's funny how you apparently think that shines a positive light on the situation.
The iOS App Store has existed how long? And how many apps are on it? If the Windows Apps store were doing well, at this early point in its existence you'd hope the number of apps would be increasing an order of magnitude faster than that.

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Re:So what? by chopthechops · 2013-06-20 03:34 · Score: 1

There are plenty of other reasons to buy a Windows tablet over iPad.
SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!
And remember we are discussing Surface RT here not Pro.
Re:So what? by vux984 · 2013-06-20 04:13 · Score: 1

If the Windows Apps store were doing well, at this early point in its existence you'd hope the number of apps would be increasing an order of magnitude faster than that.
Why? Because someone would sit and browse through 4000 new apps a day, every day?
The reality is that as long as the major apps people care about are on the platform, and there is a steady treadmill of games to burn through, its good enough.
I'll never even see a tiny fraction of the apps on either app store. So the fact that they are "there at all" is pretty worthless.
Re:So what? by Missing.Matter · 2013-06-20 04:26 · Score: 2, Informative
The single biggest advantage is the ability to display more than one app at a time. When I show my iPad using friends this, they get very jealous. I've personally switched 4 people into the Windows RT camp using this feature alone. Windows 8.1 will make it even better by adding the ability to run multiple instances of an app, between-app information sharing, and variable width frames.

Aside from that, in no particular order:
- Multiple user accounts
- Flash support (means free Hulu)
- Built in: USB, video out, micro SD
- An actual file manager
- An actual process manager
- Better multitasking. By this I mean in iPad, you have to double tap to see a list of open apps, which only display an icon. This double tap operation usually inturrupts anything that's going on in the app (i.e. pausing a netflix video). In Windows you swipe in and get thumbnails of the actual apps running, and nothing is paused. You can then drag in the app and dock it next to the running one.
- Mouse support and better external display support. Works just like Windows when plugged into a keyboard and mouse. iPad has extreme trouble with this.
- Even Windows RT supports more peripherals like printers, scanners, game pads, external harddrives, external optical drives, USB drives, and again mice.
- In many cases, Windows RT tablets are cheaper than iPad.
- Live tiles. Slashdot loves to bash them, but all you get on iPad are static icons. Don't display information. Don't update based on app state. Can't resize based on preference. Boring and useless.
- More customizable. on iOS your choices are limited to a wallpaper and apps on your launcher. On Windows you choose the background, wallpaper, accent color, which tiles are pinned, how to arrange and group them, how to resize the tiles, which tiles display information, etc.
That's the short list. If you want more, I can go on an on. I'm a user of both, and I vastly prefer Windows RT over iOS. In my eyes there is literally nothing redeemable about iOS over Windows RT except the app situation, and that is easily correctable with time.
Re:So what? by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 04:46 · Score: 1

> Windows RT is for people who want an iPad analogue.
Then... why not get an ipad? Just wonderin'.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:So what? by Sepodati · 2013-06-20 07:35 · Score: 1

That's a great list. The only thing on my wishlist is to lose the mandatory Appstore buying.
But I'm happy with a stock kindle fire HD, win8 on a laptop and Linux on other machines, so I'm easy to please.
Re:So what? by TheRaven64 · 2013-06-20 07:54 · Score: 1

I think the only feature I don't have from that list on my ASUS TransformerPad (Android) is multiple user accounts (which is something I'd like, but is difficult to hack into the crappy way Android handles sandboxing). Oh, and I have a nice keyboard and a tolerable trackpad built in when the device is in clamshell mode and easily detachable when I want to use it as a tablet.

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Re:So what? by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 08:27 · Score: 1

Ok, but those features are available on Android, and it's a more mature product. The point is not so much "why RT" (although I could go there) but why push RT for people who are looking for an ipad.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:So what? by Missing.Matter · 2013-06-20 13:34 · Score: 1

Lol, suit yourself. I'll just point out your two reasons are meaningless. First these were not iPad fanatics, but people who bought iPad because they didn't know any better. They weren't invested in the product or ecosystem, so switching was easy. They saw my tablet and liked the feature set more, so they switched. Simple as that. Plug your ears all you like, but that's the reality.
Re:So what? by chopthechops · 2013-06-20 19:27 · Score: 1

Nice list, and if all those things are important to you on a tablet then I'm sure you will continue to enjoy your Surface RT.
I'm not interested in squabbling over which products are better for what reason but I would suggest that most of those things you've listed are not important to most tablet users, particularly non-computer enthusiasts. Over time we will see which products are most successful.
For anyone interested in why I personally do not rate any of the above reasons to buy Surface RT over Apple iPad as particularly significant, read on.
Ability to simultaneously display more than one app: Windows 8 is not exactly the poster boy for multiple app windows since the whole split screen thing is pretty gumby and it is one of the things I hate most about Metro, but that's just me, and I digress. I have never felt the need to display two iPad apps on screen simultaneously. I have worked in IT for many years and note that a large proportion of the average user population do not 'get' the concept of opening multiple programs simultaneously even when running the Windows Operating system. If you truly have switched four iPad owners over to Surface for this feature alone then I suggest they are not typical users. I know lots of people with iPads and I've literally never heard anyone say they want the ability to display more than one app at a time. I'm not saying it's a useless feature but I don't see it as significant to most users.
Multiple user accounts: Actually it would be nice to see multiple user accounts on the iPad so a single device could be shared with a number of users while keeping their data private. This would be extremely handy in a family environment for example. I'll give you that one but this feature alone would not be sufficient for me to want to switch to Surface though.
Flash support: Lack of flash has not really impacted me as I rarely rely on flash-only sites (we do not have Hulu here) and I can access sites that require flash on my laptop if necessary. If you feel this is a cop-out then I'll give you credit for that point as well, but lack of flash is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
Built in ports: I thought I might miss lack of USB for data transfer reasons but I haven't (admittedly mainly due to dropbox). Video out is available by plugin dongle but I prefer to use airplay instead as it works very well without relying on plugging in anything. You do need an Apple TV for airplay though.
An actual file manager, task manager and multitasking: honestly I am not impacted by these at all. The scenario you describe is all well and good but I have never desired to that on the iPad.
Mouse & external display support : I have no desire to try to turn my iPad into a laptop substitute. I have a laptop for that. External display support for giving presentations from iPad works fine. I hooked up a bluetooth keyboard to the iPad just to try it out and it worked great but I disconnected it after a few minutes simply because I don'y do any keyboard intensive work on the iPad.
Peripheral support: apart from occasionally wanting to print I have no need to access the peripherals you list from the iPad. You can airprint directly to many modern printers or do what I do and airprint to a printer shared by another computer.
Price: Apple commands a premium for quality and ease of use and this does not suit everyone. However in my experience a significant amount of people who are initially drawn to particular products based on cheap prices later regret buying cheap when the device doesn't live up to their expectations. The value for money equation is more significant than absolute price, but 'value' is subjective to personal taste and expectations. I personally would not buy Surface RT at any price because I don't see it's intrinsic value, let alone it's value at a particular price.
Live tiles and customisation: personally I rate the ability to pretty up your display with photos and animation at approximately negative infinit
Re:So what? by chopthechops · 2013-06-21 22:31 · Score: 1

... these were not iPad fanatics, but people who bought iPad because they didn't know any better. They weren't invested in the product or ecosystem, so switching was easy. They saw my tablet and liked the feature set more, so they switched.
I suggest that if what you say about the iPad to Surface RT switchers is true then their experiences are not indicative of those enjoyed by typical iPad buyers. You say they made their iPad purchases because they 'didn't know any better' so the logical conclusion from that statement is that they switched only after you educated them to the superiority of the Surface RT. There doesn't seem to be anyone other than yourself who thinks Surface RT is a better than iPad for those who want the iPad type of experience (which I assume means more tablet oriented than laptop oriented) as per one of your previous posts, so the scenario you describe is unlikely to occur very often. I don't know of anyone who has purchased Surface RT so even if it was a superior product there's nobody around here to 'educate' those poor fools who buy iPads. The local retailers certainly don't know how to sell them other than to 'slash' the price. Harvey Norman (Australian retailer) is currently advertising $100 off Surface RT and it looks like a permanent price drop rather than a time limited special price. Maybe they are selling so well the retailers have dropped the price as some form of community service?

Seriously!!! by Vanderhoth · 2013-06-20 01:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

Do we have to go through the the same BS we went through when Windows 8 was in consumer preview. Months of, "I've used Windows 8 since Developer preview, and it's just swell. My five year old loves... blah... blah... blah...".

This is ./, we're the techies that decide how good a product is. Windows 8 is a failure, no one's buying your BS here, find a local news paper to post in.

Re:Seriously!!! by Mathness · 2013-06-20 02:21 · Score: 1

*Shakes the Magic Windows Eight Ball* and the answer is "always and every time".

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Re:Seriously!!! by wile_e8 · 2013-06-20 02:35 · Score: 1

The astroturfers are stepping up their game this time around - they even bothered to have the account make a few other posts before making the first post here so it wasn't completely obvious it was astroturfing. Next time they might even use accounts with posts more than a few hours ahead.
Re:Seriously!!! by Vanderhoth · 2013-06-20 03:44 · Score: 1

You know what makes people quick to hate? Spending all day reading shrill post about how great terrible product is. I actually use to be quite interested to hear what people had to say about tech products from any company. Then Windows 8 came and it just turned into a big ball of you can't believe anything. Unfortunately I don't have time to go and read everyone's post history, but I've read a lot of very hilarious ones that make it extremely clear someone's a shrill. All I can do is assume everyone with something good to say about MS is a shrill.

Sorry if you genuinely like the RT, but it's Microsoft's reputation management team that's ruining it for you.
Re:Seriously!!! by wile_e8 · 2013-06-20 04:11 · Score: 1

Not everyone who likes the Surface RT is paid by MS.
I never said they were. It's just that first posts for most Windows 8 articles have been obvious shills for a while now, and this account stepped up the game by being a thinly veiled shill. That does not mean every pro-MS commenter is a shill, just that the the guys pouncing on the most visible comment frequently are.
Re:Seriously!!! by Jeremy+Erwin · 2013-06-20 04:32 · Score: 1

Why would anyone write an app for an unloved platform?
Re:Seriously!!! by cbhacking · 2013-06-20 05:59 · Score: 1

Because Win8 (and WRT) both use the same API (WinRT) and an app published for one is either automatically available for the other, or requires only a trivial recompile, and because while Win8 may be *relatively* unpopular, it's actually very widely installed. Write a Win8 app, put it on the store, sell it to people who have Win8 (and, conveniently enough with no extra work on your part, also to the people who have Windows RT).

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Gets it right on the third go by blarkon · 2013-06-20 01:47 · Score: 1

MSFT tends to get things right on their third go. Surface is getting Outlook and a start menu in the next month or so. Surface 2 is going to have a higher resolution display. Will it work? Who knows - but they seem to be giving it a serious shake.

Re:Gets it right on the third go by Vanderhoth · 2013-06-20 01:50 · Score: 1, Informative

Not getting the start menu. It's getting a start BUTTON. It still takes you to metro, so no thanks. It's a crap product that no one wants.
Re:Gets it right on the third go by Molt · 2013-06-20 02:20 · Score: 1

I want a desktop OS on my desktop.

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Re:Gets it right on the third go by Missing.Matter · 2013-06-20 02:27 · Score: 1

This article isn't about a desktop, it's about the Surface RT... a tablet.
Re:Gets it right on the third go by Vanderhoth · 2013-06-20 02:32 · Score: 1

You want to have Metro on a tablet, fine, that's ok, but it's not what people want on a desktop. So MS throws the button back on and calls it a menu to try and fool desktop users, but it's not a menu, it's a BUTTON, and everyone know it, so they haven't done what was asked.

No wonder windows 8 was such a flop, the people in charge don't even know the difference between basic UI elements.
Re:Gets it right on the third go by Missing.Matter · 2013-06-20 02:40 · Score: 1

So MS throws the button back on and calls it a menu to try and fool desktop users
Microsoft has not once called the start button added in Windows 8.1 the "start menu". Go find a quote direct from a microsoft representative or blog stating as such. I'll wait all day.
Re:Gets it right on the third go by Pseudonym+Authority · 2013-06-20 03:04 · Score: 1

You can tell the truth and still be dishonest.
Re:Gets it right on the third go by Vanderhoth · 2013-06-20 04:21 · Score: 1

I see what you did there. There tons of references from news articles and blogs, but you wouldn't accept them anyway because it's second hand "re-tweeting". Aside from that the original comment I made was telling blarkon not to call it a menu. Good strategy, change the subject then attack new post rather than defending a lost cause.

Obvious troll is obvious.
Re:Gets it right on the third go by Missing.Matter · 2013-06-20 04:30 · Score: 1

Your literal words were "So MS throws the button back on and calls it a menu to try and fool desktop users" but this is a compelte lie. MS never called it a menu. Blarkon called it a menu, you corrected him. But then you go on to attribute his confusion to Microsoft, which is completely wrong. You want to fault me for calling you out? Go ahead. Doesn't change the facts.

so is Microsoft the good guy now? by alen · 2013-06-20 01:53 · Score: 1

with apple sucking up most of the world's money it seems like people think Microsoft will save them again

Re:so is Microsoft the good guy now? by ArcadeMan · 2013-06-20 02:20 · Score: 1

When did Microsoft save anyone from anything?

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Re:so is Microsoft the good guy now? by alen · 2013-06-20 02:27 · Score: 1

never been an IBM customer, have you?
Re:so is Microsoft the good guy now? by TheRaven64 · 2013-06-20 08:02 · Score: 1

I'm glad to see MS in this market. I fondly remember the competition in the late '80s and early '90s, with half a dozen serious players in the home computer market and a lot more smaller ones. I'd love to see 5-6 decent operating systems for mobile phones and tablets. I'm also glad to see that they're not doing especially well, but I'd be very happy to see them with 10-20% of the market and none of their competitors with more than 40%.

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Re:This is great by ArcadeMan · 2013-06-20 01:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm not a big fan of Microsoft, but SurfaceRT has always inspired me.

Possible Microsoft shill detected.

I think it's great that they're getting these in the stores!

Microsoft shill confirmed.

After all, they are both stronger and better performing than iPads or Android tablets.

Microsoft FUD detected, presenting false data as facts.

They also come with many advanced features compared to those two.

More Microsoft FUD detected.

And don't forget about it - developer integration is well formed and ready for any (big or indie) publisher right out of the box with your latest Visual Studio version.

Obvious shill is totally obvious.

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Thank Goodness! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2013-06-20 02:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is such good news! All the complaints about 'Surface RT' that I've heard so far have centered on how the Tegra3 is too slow, and doesn't have enough LTE. Nothing about how the hilariously perfunctory not-quite-office version of office is deeply touch-unfriendly, or being locked into Microsoft's walled garden store, or the relatively tiny application library. This should fix everything!

Re:Thank Goodness! by Overzeetop · 2013-06-20 03:11 · Score: 1

I expect the conversation went like this:
"You know, all the user feedback is that people can't run their Windows software on Windows RT, and the dedicated store apps are still lacking in breadth."
"Hmmm...let's fix that with the second release"
"Oooo! I know, we'll make the processor faster and add faster, expensive networking to it!!"
"That's a wrap, guys - lets get this thing into production!"

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Re:This is great by Anonymous Coward · 2013-06-20 02:04 · Score: 1

The amazing thing is that they can't seem to hide their breathless devotion when they do this. "I think it's great they are getting these in stores!" This reads like all the MS ad copy I've ever seen. It's always so forced and weird. Nobody talks like that! note my use of an exl. point. It's warranted. No one is that excited about any product, ever. Except for maybe bacon. Or, should I say, "bacon!"

Re:This is great by ArcadeMan · 2013-06-20 02:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Apple fanboys and consoles fanboys can be that excited, but they still wouldn't word it in that fashion.

"I think it's great they are getting these in stores!" sounds like the point of view of the seller, not the buyer.

As an example, a PS4 fanboy would say something like "I'll camp on the sidewalk for days if I have to, but I'm getting one on launch day! Xbox sucks!!1".

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Re:This is great by NatasRevol · 2013-06-20 02:18 · Score: 1

It literally sounds like something that Ballmer would say on stage.

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Ode to my Troll by drinkypoo · 2013-06-20 02:27 · Score: 2

O my troll,
You wish to deprecate me,
But you strengthen me by validating my comments,
You let me know that I interfere with your shilling
I am renewed in thee.

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Hardware lifecycle by MachineShedFred · 2013-06-20 02:31 · Score: 2

And all 15 of the people that bought, and kept, their Surface RT tablets are now going to be pissed at the 6 month product lifecycle.

With the deep discounts that Microsoft is giving on these things, they're getting dangerously close to "we can't even give them away."

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Re:Hardware lifecycle by thoriumbr · 2013-06-20 02:38 · Score: 2

And Microsoft is dangerously passing the message "don't buy now, wait until we give you all a huge discount later" for its customers.
Zune? Flop. Discounted and still flopped...
Windows Mobile Phones? Flop. And Lumia is even behind Blackberries
Surface? Flop. Give it for free to say we have marketshare.
Xbox One? Walking down the flop path, but some hope still exists...
Re:Hardware lifecycle by cbhacking · 2013-06-20 06:27 · Score: 1

Surface Pro is actually selling well. Surface RT not that well, but better than (for example) Chromebooks or most Android tablets. Nobody seems to be calling out Google for releasing "flops" though...
Windows Mobile was actually a reasonably popular smartphone OS in its heyday, although the smartphone market was tiny compared to today back then. Windows Phone is solidly in third place right now, and its share is growing (not explosively, but steadily).

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Re:Hardware lifecycle by MachineShedFred · 2013-06-20 06:53 · Score: 1

although the smartphone market was tiny compared to today back then
Which was a direct function of practically every smartphone of the period being a major piece of shit. Smartphones only became slightly useable when RIM started getting traction with Blackberry, and the explosive growth we see today is due to iPhone and versions of Android that don't suck.
Did Microsoft try first? Sure - you could go all the way back to Windows CE for that. Did they fail for years? Also yes.

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Microsoft killed its Windows!? by tuppe666 · 2013-06-20 02:32 · Score: 1

This article isn't about a desktop, it's about the Surface RT... a tablet.

Windows 8 tuns all computing devices into poor tablets with keyboard gimmick. So I'm not really sure what you are arguing.

The Good, The Bad, The Ugly by Kagato · 2013-06-20 02:56 · Score: 2

The Good: RT gets us into ARM and it leaves behind a ton of baggage that has hindered good development on MS platforms.

The Bad: Microsoft can't market their way out of a wet paper sack. Looking at the commercials all I can tell is there's a snap on keyboard and people in Washington State like to dance. Moreover, even the BlackBerry Tablet had a bigger release profile and certainly better availability in stores. All of this lead to very few apps and developers that threw their lot in with RT early on getting burned.

The Ugly: Do a Pro Tablet, or do a RT tablet. Don't do both. Consumers have no idea what the difference is. The ones that bought an RT tablet feel pretty underwhelmed by the app availability.

Re:This is great by tripleevenfall · 2013-06-20 02:57 · Score: 1

The general public definitely knows about and cares about the Surface.

It's some sort of device that teaches you to breakdance, right?

Re:This is great by tripleevenfall · 2013-06-20 02:59 · Score: 1

Now you guys have done it, he's going to end up in Room 101 at Redmond

Reliance on Wintel by tuppe666 · 2013-06-20 03:21 · Score: 1

The Good: RT gets us into ARM and it leaves behind a ton of baggage that has hindered good development on MS platforms.

I personally agree with you that Windows reliance(and advantages) of Intel and X86 have come to the end of their usefulness for Microsoft, and is now a massive albatross around its neck. At least they both get to sit with their 70% profit margins. Perhaps they should have done something sooner...or at least compete on price(Still find it hilarious that Apple haven't with their dropping profits)...at least they still have the lacklustre desktop market, unless Chrome...or got forbid a manufacture gets serious about GNU/Linux.

Re:Reliance on Wintel by gl4ss · 2013-06-20 05:41 · Score: 1

intel could manufacture other chips in quite high quality(industry highest) if it came down to it.
the rt from ms is wanting mobile bucks. but it's not just that, it's tied into the windows 8 push for metro which is a push for becoming the distributor of sw on "windows" machines. rt is a trial on having only metro apps machine, with only sw from the ms store. because they have potentially tens of billions riding on that.
the desktop market isn't that lackluster.. it's where all the high margin big bucks sw is still.

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Re:This is great by DRMShill · 2013-06-20 03:52 · Score: 1

Someone posting absurdly pro Microsoft posts on Slashdot? No I don't think shill is quite the word. I'd have to sum it up with successful troll is successful.

Or it's just a troll by recoiledsnake · 2013-06-20 04:13 · Score: 1

The first post troll under the bridge is having fun getting a lot of posts and attention on Slashdot.

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Re:Or it's just a troll by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 04:41 · Score: 1

Well, a troll will troll on a variety of subjects, as long as they get attention. A shill (paid or not) tends to promote one point of view only.

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Re:Or it's just a troll by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 10:27 · Score: 1

You have a point, but I think we established that the person in question only posts wildly pro-M$ stuff. That sounds to me more like a shill than a troll. Or at very least, a curiously specialized troll.

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Re:Or it's just a troll by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 12:58 · Score: 1

You miss the point. We all appear to be in agreement that he's lying. The discussion is about *why* he's lying.
What is obvious although perhaps unsaid is that none of us believe that the RT is either inspiring, or stronger and better performing than anything we're likely to want to own. Therefore, for the RT to get newer, faster guts is moot. We're not discussing the article because it's not interesting. Whereas, failed attempts at reputation management are mildly interesting, if only for the amusement factor.

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Re:This is great by TheSkepticalOptimist · 2013-06-20 04:21 · Score: 1, Troll

The only difference between a Microsoft shill and an Apple shills is that Apple duped millions to be their shill and don't even pay them.

My [insert Apple product] is so fantastic and amazing because [ignores all reality and add excessive hyperbole to describe device an features]. That is why I buy one every 6 months!

BTW there are no Google shills because in spite of having the largest mobile platform nobody actually likes Android yet and only says they do to be alternative. It's like listening to Gotye and hiding your cringes while saying you love his music, just to seem cool.

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Re:This is great by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 04:40 · Score: 1

And he doesn't write very well.

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Re:It's spelt and pronounced SHILL. by roc97007 · 2013-06-20 04:43 · Score: 1

Sometimes it's both.

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Re:This is great by Bearhouse · 2013-06-20 05:11 · Score: 1

Well it was so ridiculously gushing and inaccurate that I thought at first he was going for the "funny" mod...

Re:This is great by MouseTheLuckyDog · 2013-06-20 05:13 · Score: 1

No one is that excited about any product, ever. Except for maybe bacon. Or, should I say, "bacon!"

No you should say "chunky bacon"!

Re:This is great indeed! by Bearhouse · 2013-06-20 05:18 · Score: 1

Yes, insanely great! Better than wild monkey sex!
Now you can run all your favourite Windows applications even faster than before!
Oh wait...

Re:This is great by cbhacking · 2013-06-20 05:50 · Score: 1

For what it's worth, you actually can develop in .NET for Windows RT - either through official channels (the Windows Store supports all .NET languages, though you have to use XAML, HTML5, or DirectX for graphics, not WinForms or console or anything traditional like that...) or through development for "jailbroken" tablets (once the restriction to Microsoft-signed binaries on the desktop is gone, Windows RT will very happily run .NET 4.0 or later code, provided it was compiled for "AnyCPU" as is the default in Visual Studio).

The OS also comes with csc.exe (the C# compiler) and there's a .NET IDE which has been ported to run on the OS, so you can even develop code on Surface RT. Not saying you *should*, necessarily - the Touch Cover is in fact usable for coding, but I'd want at least a Type Cover before doing serious work - but you can.

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Re:This is great indeed! by cbhacking · 2013-06-20 06:04 · Score: 1

Actually, leaving aside the built-in apps (of which the only really performance-sensitive one is IE), it's actually pretty easy to enable running traditional Windows apps on Windows RT. The "jailbreak" script is public and dead easy to use. .NET apps will run un-modified. Native ones need to be recompiled, but there's already quite a few which have been (including a number of games, which will definitely benefit from improved performance). Alternatively, there's also an x86 dynamic recompilation layer which allows running native apps unmodified (handy since most Windows apps are closed source and thus can't be easily recompiled) although the performance is of course not great (which means that a faster CPU will help a lot there too).

http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2130

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Re:Don't care by cbhacking · 2013-06-20 06:24 · Score: 1

Leaving aside the tens of thousands of Windows programs that it *is* compatible with (Windows Store apps are still "Windows programs"), it's actually quite easy to run re-compiled native apps or recent .NET apps on RT, and for closed-source native apps, there's a dynamic recompilation layer which does a decent job with older or low-demand software.

It's not (yet) possible to run anywhere near the full breadth of Windows software, no... but it'll run a reasonable portion of it, with more being added all the time (either through recompiling apps, or through the x86 layer adding support for required capabilities of more apps).

http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2130

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Very nice! by elabs · 2013-06-20 08:30 · Score: 1

So how does the performance and energy consumption stack up to a new Haswell x86 chip?

Theories... by slew · 2013-06-20 10:02 · Score: 1

Although MSFT claimed to lock down WinRT to force developers to target Metro so there would be lots of tablet friendly apps instead of win32 ports, my theories as to why MSFT really decided to have a locked down WinRT...

1. They are mostly using WinRT as a lever against Intel to get them to reduce the margins on x86 chips so that they can compete against android in the low-end tablet space w/ x86 chips. If this strategy is successful and intel capitulates, they didn't want too many consumer WinRT ARM win32 binaries floating in the wild to support as they drop support for ARM.
2. They wanted to sell unlocked versions to enterprises at a higher price.
3. Available ARM SOCs are 32-bit and the GPUs don't yet have universal support for DX10 (the minimum required for win8) and they don't want developers to go back a generation to the lowest common denominator just to pickup WinRT compatibility as that would undermine the upgrade cycle component of their business.
4. They didn't want to support malware/anti-virus on ARM (maybe because of $$$ supporting too many platforms or maybe slow performance on ARM).

All these reasons could change in the future, but they were probably important during the original launch (and thus they flipped the flag to lock it down).

Don't forget Alpha by Ottibus · 2013-06-20 21:40 · Score: 1

you may be too young to remember, but the NT family - which includes Win7 and Win8 - has always come on multiple architectures

By "multiple" you mean x86-32, x86-64 and IA64, right? Or do you mean further back when NT4 ran on MIPS, Solaris, and Power?

Don't forget DEC Alpha, I had one of those beasts on my desk a couple of decades ago.

And I think you mean Sparc not Solaris, but NT didn't support that either way.

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