EU To Vote On Suspension of Data Sharing With US

New submitter badzilla writes with a story from ZDnet that says a vote is scheduled in the European Parliament for today, U.S. Independence Day, on "whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents should be suspended, following allegations that U.S. intelligence spied on EU citizens." One interesting scenario outlined by the article is that it may disrupt air travel between the U.S. and EU: "In the resolution, submitted to the Parliament on Tuesday, more than two-dozen politicians from a range of political parties call the spying 'a serious violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations,' and call on the suspension of the Passenger Name Records (PNR) system. Prior to leaving the airport, airlines must make passenger data available to the U.S. Names, dates of birth, addresses, credit or debit card details and seat numbers are among the data — though critics say the information has never helped catch a suspected criminal or terrorist before. Should the PNR system be suspended, it could result in the suspension of flights to the U.S. from European member states."

Comments

Re:Ouch!

[moronoxyd]

Don't blame the messenger.

The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.

Let me get this right

[Chrisq]

The British GCHQ taps fibre connections, collects data on EU citizens and shares it with US intelligence services. In response the EU wants to stop sharing information on passenger records for people flying between the EU and the USA. .... Well I suppose its easier than suggesting that EU governments should not spy on its citizens.

Re:Let me get this right

[Anonymous Coward]

The British are not the EU, in fact they are viewed by most as an US shill inside the EU. In the area of surveillance they are ahead US by quite a bit.

Re:Let me get this right

[Anonymous Coward]

The US is spying on EU citizens.

The Brits are spying on EU citizens.

Therefore, for the EU to be upset at the US is foolish.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? Is it the "everyone else is doing it as well" argument the rest of us grew out of when we were 3?

Re:Let me get this right

[ledow]

Britain and the EU have an odd relationship unlike almost any other country in the EU.

Yes, technically, we are part of it. But we're exempt from other parts associated with it (we don't use the Euro, etc.). We pump more money in than some others and, as compensation, we're allowed to opt-out of certain things.

Also, if you ask people in Britain what it means to go to Europe, it doesn't include touring around Britain. Britain and the EU are - to the British - two separate entities. Even more confusing you have things like the EC and the continent of Europe and lots of other definitions over the years that we are sometimes in, sometimes out.

However, GCHQ has hit a LOT of flak for its actions. The question really is - if what the US does is illegal, and the EU is doing it back, why do we have a formal legal statement of something else entirely? Why bother? Why not just legalise what we do or not? But, ultimately, the attitude is - if we DO share things with you, why distrust us and find things out illegally for your self? And if you do that, why should we bother to trust you or give you anything anyway?

The GCHQ involvement is a side-issue, and you can guarantee that whatever sanctions the US has imposed on it, those on GCHQ will be worse.

But, politics what it is, I find it hard to believe that anything will happen, certainly anything that will affect air travel. More likely a few trade agreements will have more lenient terms than they would have otherwise and promises to clean up, and that'll be the end of it.

Though, I swore off going to the US many years ago after they basically took liberties with what rights they think they have (which include this EU passenger data crap). If I was forced to enter the US now, I'd do so for as short a time as possible and carry no electronic equipment whatsoever and encrypt all communications home. That's the only sensible business choice and has been for years, and it just happens to be the complete antithesis of the intention to collect that data in the first place.

Re:Let me get this right

[gstoddart]

The British GCHQ taps fibre connections, collects data on EU citizens and shares it with US intelligence services. In response the EU wants to stop sharing information on passenger records for people flying between the EU and the USA

Well, it's right there in the article:

Meanwhile, Reuters reports that the European Commission is examining if the U.K. broke EU law, which could lead to an infringement procedure against the British government. This could lead to financial sanctions imposed by the European Court of Justice.

That the UK did this is also something they're looking at.

Well I suppose its easier than suggesting that EU governments should not spy on its citizens.

That's exactly what they're suggesting.

There's also this:

I can not understand why a U.S. citizen has the right to redress in the EU, but an EU citizen does not have the right to redress in the U.S.

As usual, the US won't sign an agreement which says a US entity would have to face laws in other countries, but expect they will get access to those laws when convenient.

It's a one-sided arrangement that isn't working for anyone but the US, and I believe you're going to start seeing countries deciding they're not going to sign up for any more of those. I think people are getting fed up with having terms dictated to them, and aren't going to be willing to keep doing it.

Re:Let me get this right

[Psyborgue]

France too. It was reported in Le Monde this morning but hasn't hit the international press yet in full force. Here is an English article from a local French paper. Apparently the whole assembly (congress) knew about it and was on board.

Re:Let me get this right

[xaxa]

The British are not the EU, in fact they are viewed by most as an US shill inside the EU. In the area of surveillance they are ahead US by quite a bit.

We need another De Gaulle. He gave the finger to the US and to NATO in the sixties, and he absolutely didn't want the UK in the CEE (later to be known as the EU). We don't need Turkey nor Israel in the EU and we certainly don't need the 51st american state either (aka the UK).

Please don't make us (the UK) leave! The EU's the only thing with a chance of preventing further erosion of British citizens' working rights, civil liberties, environment, etc.

Unfortunately, many of the uninformed voters here want to leave :-(

Re:Let me get this right

[Fyzzler]

We need another De Gaulle. He gave the finger to the US and to NATO in the sixties, and he absolutely didn't want the UK in the CEE (later to be known as the EU). We don't need Turkey nor Israel in the EU and we certainly don't need the 51st american state either (aka the UK).

The 51st state is Canada. The UK would be 52nd.

Re:Let me get this right

[Xest]

"It's a one-sided arrangement that isn't working for anyone but the US"

To be fair the reason the EU and even Russia have these agreements with the US is that they expect in return the US will warn them of terrorist threats on their soil and work with them on intelligence issues. So it's not entirely one-sided, there are benefits, the problem is that the equation is changed and so do those benefits still outweigh the downsides?

It has to be consensual, the EU has no problem working with the US on this basis of intelligence cooperation, and neither does Russia, and neither does anyone else, but if the US then starts spying above and beyond what has agreed then the whole system has to be examined as to whether working with the US is indeed a net positive. The calculation was that when it was limited to those activities designed in legally binding agreements that it was a net positive, but now that it's clear the US' intelligence program has gone way beyond those agreed limits it's no longer clear that the original calculation involved in authorising the intelligence sharing agreements is still valid.

For example, the EU obviously determined that giving up citizen names, addresses, credit cards and so forth to the US was worth it for the intelligence shared back, but now it's clear that the US may have been mining private conversations and other personal information on top of that agreed, potentially mixing it together into one big data mining operation, that calculation has changed, and the EU has to hence re-evaluate that.

Opting to give up citizens personal data for security is one thing because the decision has been made (whether we here on Slashdot like it or not) that doing so is in the net interest of EU citizens, but having that personal data mixed in with illegally gathered trade and personal data that might be used to the detriment of EU citizens and economic interests is a whole different ballgame. Suddenly it's not so clearly in the EU's interest, though I guess perhaps that what you mean when you say it's one sided?

I agree with everything you say though by the way.

Re:Let me get this right

[SwedishPenguin]

I guess it's all a matter of how much in terms of for instance working rights already exist within a nation. My concern with the EU is rather that it erodes our working rights, civil liberties and environmental regulations. For instance the Laval judgement prohibiting unions from interfering with the ongoing exploitation of EU citizens working in our country and the subsequent social dumping: in my view everyone who works in Sweden should have the same rights to a decent wage, vacation, union representation, etc, but this is not the opinion of the EU, they want to create a subclass of people who don't have the same rights as everyone else simply because they are not citizens of this country. It's the neoliberals who are in control of the EU, they have no interest in helping you maintain your workers rights.

Re:Let me get this right

[Plammox]

We pump more money in than some others and, as compensation, we're allowed to opt-out of certain things.

You make it sound as if the UK is one of the most significant contributors to the EU budget. You get a whopping rebate on your net EU contribution, seen per capita. In 2009 every UK citizen contributed 62.7 EUR to the budget, whereas the Danes had to pay 211 EUR each, which was also the reason Denmark was threatening to veto the budget earlier this year in case they wouldn't get a similar rebate to the UK, Austria and Sweden.

Re:Let me get this right

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The EU's the only thing with a chance of preventing further erosion of British citizens' working rights, civil liberties, environment, etc.

Obligatory civics note: The EU is not the authority behind the European Convention on Human Rights, which in turn motivated the UK's Human Rights Act. Leaving the EU and leaving the ECHR are different actions.

I think you're being overly optimistic about the EU's role in protecting various things within Britain as well. Between the opt-outs and special cases, a lot of the intended protections under EU rules get watered down here anyway.

In some respects, the most compelling argument for leaving might be that it simplifies our political system and thus makes it harder for our national government to avoid taking responsibility for unpopular actions. At present, it's far too easy for our administration to be saying something popular at home, while simultaneously negotiating for an opposing position at European level, and then when the European version goes through because there's little real accountability at that level, the folks back home can mumble something about the EU making us do it.

Re:Let me get this right

[Lennie]

Per capita is what is important here:

The four largest net contributors in absolute terms are Germany, France, Italy, UK
The four largest net contributors in per capita terms are Denmark, Finland, Germany, Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union#Net_contributors_and_recipients

Re:Let me get this right

[thetoadwarrior]

You act as if the UK wants to be part of the EU. They're too busy trying to suck up to US which is why it turns out it was the UK that was helping the US run a spying scheme that would make the nazis jizz their pants with jealousy.

Re:Ouch!

[cold fjord]

Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.

Re:Harmless?

[serviscope_minor]

Well, it looks like Snowden's actions continue to bear fruit in harming both the US and its allies.

Bull-fucking-shit.

Oh, unless you mean that stopping them from pulling illegal stunts is harm, in which case, fuck you.

What caused harm was the US and UK doing illegal stuff. Do not confuse the messenger with the message.

As a citizen of the UK and therefore EU, I assert that these leaks did good, not harm. How can bringing criminals to account be considered "harmful". How on earth can stopping a massive US over reach in wanting to pile the old haystack every higher with data on EU citizens be considered "harm"?

Re:Harmless?

[msobkow]

The US harmed itself with it's egregious spying.

All Snowden did is expose the bullshit. He didn't cause the bullshit. That's squarely on the backs of the NSA and the US government's "secret" legislation.

Re:Harmless?

[erroneus]

Not like this. Only the US and its technology companies have the presense and ubiquity to pull something off at this level and scale.

These are reasons to dump Microsoft and Cisco ASAP. Additionally, to begin looking much more carefully at all US products including cars and aircraft. They should all be treated with suspicion at this point.

Re:Ouch!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.

Bring out the proof then.

This isn't the first time that the US has been caught with this kind of shit and there have been several cases where the US has used illegally gathered information to get favorable deals during business negotiations rather than to just use it for national security issues.

I suspect that you only can find information of French being in the same club and even then only as a response to shit the US spies did against them.

Evidently...

[Dcnjoe60]

Evidently, the US doesn't need the data sharing agreements. They seem to be pretty good at getting the data they want with or without any agreements.

Re:Evidently...

[tsa]

Indeed, so we will have to do something with more impact, like not buying any US fighter planes anymore. That JSF is expensive rubbish anyway, so that's a double win for the EU. Bit of course nothing like those will happen. The lap dog will yap a few times, growl a bit and then curl up in the US's lap again.

Re:Evidently...

[Dcnjoe60]

Indeed, so we will have to do something with more impact, like not buying any US fighter planes anymore. That JSF is expensive rubbish anyway, so that's a double win for the EU. Bit of course nothing like those will happen. The lap dog will yap a few times, growl a bit and then curl up in the US's lap again.

You might want to be careful about that. If you cut off the US military-industrial complex, they might find another way to secure their funding, like start another needless war. They're already salivating with what's going on in Egypt right now.

Re:Harmless?

[dunkelfalke]

I second that. There is no harm here, only good. It is long overdue that the EU starts crawling out of the American arse. The only EU country that is an ally to the USA is the UK. Everyone else are more like vassals.

The only way to teach the police statesome respect

[trifish]

Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.

Re:Ouch!

[spartacus_prime]

yes, but to deal with that problem would be too difficult for most, so it's easier to blame a whistleblower.

A constitutional amendment

[onyxruby]

The US needs a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy.

Nevermind the NSA conspiracy theories, the corps are already doing it almost everything and what they aren't doing the cops are.

Nothing else can stop the march of technology that can and is wholesale systematically slaughtering our privacy. Technology makes it possible to systematically monitor your every move from the time you leave your house to the time return and every interaction you make when you go online, every phone call, instant message, email and mailed letter.

Frankly I can't blame the Euro's for withholding the data, we have jack for data privacy protection, nevermind the whole NSA bit. Almost none of our data has to be encrypted and our standards for protecting data are a joke. We collect everything, dispose of almost nothing and sell or rent it all to the highest bidder. sigh...

Re:A constitutional amendment

[the eric conspiracy]

> The US needs a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy.

No, it doesn't. The Constitutional right to privacy is already well established in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_privacy#United_States

The problem is that it is not observed.

Re:Ouch!

[Black Parrot]

Don't blame the messenger.

The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.

I wonder how many of the politicians (domestic & foreign) who are demanding investigations based on his revelations are stepping up to the plate and trying to keep him out of prison.

Re:Ouch!

[gl4ss]

Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.

for most european countries citizens it wouldn't be even legal to be spying on other countries(to do espionage abroad). for NSA faculty it's legal.
so a lot of the intelligence - which isn't a lot at all - we gather is by trading information with others.

however, this isn't about even that kind of information trading. this is just about the EU providing things like flight passenger lists for european flights to americans, providing our bank statements to americans.. that was done pretty much just as goodwill for the "war on terror" effort. now it's getting obvious and over the table that the data isn't being kept with any sanctity - that once the data goes to usa they don't give a fuck about where it came from since it's from outside the usa they think they can do anything with it.

so yeah, fuck off. abusing privileges tends to end up in losing them. if you can't be bothered to put on any legal rules on access to the data even then why the fuck should we be providing you with all our data which could be used among other things to manipulate stock markets? why?

Re:Ouch!

[Jeremy Erwin]

Our Constitution defines Treason very specifically as giving aid or shelter to an Enemy.

or in levying war against the united states. However, there is an additional element to the "aid and comfort" clause.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

From Cramer v US 325 US 1 (1945)

Thus the crime of treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy; and rendering him aid and comfort. A citizen intellectually or emotionally may favor the enemy and harbor sympathies or convictions disloyal to this country's policy or interest, but so long as he commits no act of aid and comfort to the enemy, there is no treason. On the other hand, a citizen may take actions, which do aid and comfort the enemy-making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason.

Luckily for the authoritarians, sedition laws--in particular, Seditious Conspiracy have filled in the gaps.

Re:Harmless?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Of course that would probably result in considerable unpleasantness.

The unpleasantness goes back decades. Look, here's a Slashdot story about the EU investigating it from 1998.

This time around they learned that NSA/CIA is spying on their governments, not just their citizens. That's what they're really tweaked about. They've been complicit in spying on their citizens all along - that's what the 'data sharing' agreements are for.

This is just self-appointed elites getting mad at other self-appointed elites for doing to each other what they do to everybody else. You can put the US or the EU in either the subject or the object there and it still works just fine.

What Snowden did is get the elites' press talking about the extant unpleasantness - fifteen years after the alternate press.

Side effects

[eulernet]

There is an interesting side effect about this data problem: the cloud.

Currently, the biggest cloud providers are based in US.
But due to the NSA disclosure, most companies cannot afford to give their data to outside countries, especially since it's now clear that NSA spied european companies economically.

So local cloud providers will quickly emerge, and this will directly impact Google and Amazon's services.
US clouds cannot be trusted anymore.

Re:Side effects

[wvmarle]

Agreed, fully.

Recently I had the need of a virtual server - just to run my web site, host my documents, and various other tasks. So searching for this I specifically searched for local Hong Kong companies (which is where I live), to host such a server. And a short search later I found one that offers cloud servers, just what I needed.

A few months ago I was thinking about the same issue - and then I was considering Amazon. I am a customer of Amazon already, for their glacier cold storage service, where I keep back-ups (all encrypted before they leave my systems). They have a good reputation, and overall very good prices, however it being a US company made me not even consider them now.

And that's a direct result of Snowden's revelations.

Re:Side effects

[TheP4st]

US clouds cannot be trusted anymore.

They never could, only difference is that now it is confirmed and I can enjoy of saying "I told you so!". However, I would not trust any cloud service regardless of its country of origin with important data.

Re:Side effects

[wvmarle]

Crocodile tears.

What are the odds that Hong Kong servers are pretty nearly directly connected to Chinese government servers?

Small. Very small. Far smaller than the known direct link between the US government and the major internet companies there.

If the mainland tried anything like it, they could face a serious backlash by the Hong Kong people. It appears you know even less about the current situation here, than I know about Watergate (which is very little).

Re:Ouch!

[amiga3D]

All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies. I think it's expected to happen and only when it becomes public do the players pretend to be outraged.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930418&slug=1696416

Re:Harmless?

[cold fjord]

That is nonsense. Most European nations are part of NATO and allied with each other, including the US and Canada. If all of Europe were vassal states to the US this wouldn't be an issue, nor would many other things. The fact of the matter is that Europe has long been dependent on the US for filling the gap in Europe's defenses since European nations for the most part don't meet the level of defense spending agreed to by treaty.

Re:Ouch!

[MrDoh!]

I wonder how many of the politicians who won't help him are scared silly on what secrets of theirs may be revealed.

And another..

[SlashDread]

Very luke-warm response from the EU politicians. France will "consider suspending trade negotiations for 2 weeks", The EU will now "suspend data sharing talks". Well 2 big woopdiedoo's. The real trade negotiations are well hidden from the EU PUBLIC (Not he NSA of course :), and the snoopers from the NSA already have our data, there is no need to share. We already give it!

THATS the real issue for Europeans people... WTF don't our politicians CARE about this? That scares me more then the whole snooping.

Re:Harmless?

[lightknight]

Yes, but to certain people, it's not that they committed a crime that's the problem, but that it has been reported. The US, and various government agencies, enjoy charging others with crimes...they do not enjoy being charged with crimes themselves...and they react like anyone who has enjoyed privileged immunity to the negatives of their actions for a long period of time, as in, they do not know how to react to being on the other end of the sword, and thus, act like the criminals they've sought to prosecute. It's especially demeaning and humbling to them, as it overturns their own self-image as crusaders of justice ("Wait, we're the villains? That can't be! We're the good guys! You must be the villain!"), as well as forces them to realize that their character assassinations are just that, character assassinations (it's so much easier if the Judge / Jury has never been on the other end of the sword, ever, and thus do not know the effects of even a threat of its use; this makes it easier for the DA to paint an image of a person having criminal mannerisms and behaviors; now they are finding that they've been misled, for much of their lives, about what is and is not evil...and admittedly, that frightens them; what Judge / Jury wishes to admit that they fell for the DA's theatrics, time and time again? Or that innocents were sold into slavery, executed, or otherwise imprisoned on their watch, and with their gracious consent?).

Snowden is not hated because he 'betrayed' the US in any sense of the word, but because he showed people that the US has a dark underbelly. The people copping the 'betrayal / traitor' talk are the people who are afraid...they don't want to be seen not taughting the official story line; keep your head down, repeat the lies that you are told, believe them if you have to, and you will get through this...this is their thinking. To that end, there are, perhaps, more than a handful of politicians who are scared sh*tless that their watercooler talk on their cellphones / secure lines is sitting in a special folder on the NSA Director's personal computer; that fear alone is enough to guarantee their loyalty. And that's not accounting for the digital trickery that a thousand or so programmers, under control of the NSA, can achieve if evidence ever needs to be manufactured.

So this is the problem the NSA is faced with: they are breaking the highest laws of the land to achieve their ends. Theft, murder, rape, lies...all of these are considered necessary in the course of their actions. And no one is willing to tell them "Give it a miss."

Re:Harmless?

[erroneus]

The US government has tainted just about everything it touches. In situations like these, a wise person would be more interested in integrity than the pain of change.

Can US based technologies be trusted knowing the things we know? I'm not asking if there are "better alternatives." I'm asking if, knowing what we know today, you have 100% trust in US technology products.

As for better alternatives? There are. Free alternatives. The REAL problem is the pain of transition. And seriously. Pain of transition pales in comparison to the pain of other things to come while we use the tainted and compromised products like confused addicts.

So Supend the Flights

[theshowmecanuck]

If the EU stops providing the data, and the U.S. blocks flights, how long do you think it will last. The U.S. will realize how much they are being harmed by their tantrum and be forced to stop it. Sure, the EU will suffer a few problems too, but I would think it is more closely linked to other countries in Eurasia and Africa than with North America. America is more reliant on connections to other continents (requiring a lot of air travel) than is Europe. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope America lets its business leaders make it a true second rate nation by outsourcing everything. Then they won't have as much weight to throw around. In any case, it's time to stand up to their bullying. The white hat they think they wear has turned dirty grey, at least. It's amazing how treating your friends like enemies can change opinions.

Re:So Supend the Flights

[nogginthenog]

Right, because nobody in the EU takes their holidays in the US.

Re:Harmless?

[FriendlyLurker]

Cold fjord (826450) writes "Snowden's handler..." is deceitfully supporting the new official narrative sound bite is that Snowden is a spy as apposed to a whistlblower. This is despite the fact that Snowden fits the very definition of a Whistblower in every respect, with no "grey area" in sight:

How is it anything other than pure whistleblowing to disclose secret documents proving that top government officials have been systematically deceiving the public about vital matters and/or skirting if not violating legal and Constitutional limits?

This narrative is being repeated by US military propaganda machine, which unfortunately also includes most of the worlds mass media corporations (I just watched a EU news presenter refer to Snowden as a spy in the same breath as feigning outrage over EU diplomat spying by the NSA).

It is unfortunate that shill accounts like cold fjord (826450) are being given increasing airtime on slashdot, with a long list of incorrect, misleading, and downright deceitful stories being promoted to the front page in this accounts name (with some infrequent light hearted ones sprinkled I for good cover/measure), all with the same or similar propaganda message. Not to mention the untold number of minion accounts used to harvest and mod up the posts.

My only question is, are the slashdot editors complicit? We have already seen multi million dollar propaganda software is up and running to manage accounts like Cold fjord (826450), what is the slashdot moderation system doing to counter such technological advances?

Doesn't Change Anything

[RivenAleem]

I had no intention of going to the US in the first place. I won't go there as long as the fingerprinting, cancer machines and other general invasions of privacy are cut out. It's a shame, as I'd love to do a coast to coast road trip in a lovely rented Cadillac.

(don't get me started on the amount of information my Polish wife has to provide the US embassy just to get a visa)

Re:Doesn't Change Anything

[0111 1110]

Aren't you going to miss those angry, obese guys with blue gloves sensually running their fingers through your hair, massaging your balls, sliding their fingers up and down your ass crack and inside of your waistband? And where else can you go for a nice strip search, either electronic or for real? You also get to know what if feels like to be a suspected terrorist with our intensive 'interviews' upon entry. They will only want your entire life history and a very, very good explanation of why you would even think about visiting here. You'll have to do some pretty fast talking to convince them you are not here to blow things up. I don't see how anyone could possibly resist that experience. Then you could visit our jails and see how real Americans live. Don't be fooled. Those cages are for our own safety.

Re:Doesn't Change Anything

[0111 1110]

Good. Please stay home, we don't want your damn ass in the States.

Believe me. They already know they are not welcome. You don't have to be a genuis to figure that out immediately on arrival when you are subjected to intense interrogations and are treated like a criminal. A lot of tourists naive enough not to realize what things were like behind our barbed wire vow never to return. The novelty value of feeling like you are checking into a prison gets old very quickly. As does constantly having to prove that you did not come here to blow stuff up.

Re:Harmless?

[TheP4st]

The fact of the matter is that Europe has long been dependent on the US for filling the gap in Europe's defenses since European nations for the most part don't meet the level of defense spending agreed to by treaty.

That is nonsense. The need for a NATO membership is no longer there for European nations since December 1991. The EU NATO members could to leave NATO today and shut down all the US military bases here EU defensive capabilities would still be more than sufficient against any imaginable threat with the only exception possibly being the US of A. It could be argued that the biggest strategic threat to EU and its financial as well as territorial independence is the permanent presence of US armed forces in UK, Germany, Italy and so forth totaling 69661 US military personnel.

Re:Ouch!

[memnock]

It's great that the E.U. is finally acting outraged about the U.S.'s spying which they probably wouldn't have faced up to without Snowden. I would think they would view Snowden in a positive light for it. Yet they seem to regard Snowden with the same animosity that the U.S. administration does.

Re:Ouch!

[BrokenHalo]

All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies.

In the past, the convention was to spy on governments or their agencies (who might or might not be spies themselves).

A sledgehammer approach whereby the US imagines that it is somehow OK to spy on citizens of other nations, on a wholesale basis, with no regard to "probable cause" or any of those other convenient elisions is totally unconscionable.

Suspension of data sharing is nothing more than a mumble where real sanctions should be applied. They should be quarantining all human traffic from or to the US, and banning all trade. If the US administration does not choose to operate by civilised rules, then it should be treated as the international pariah that it has become.

Re:Contients?

[c0lo]

... it was a politician speaking and they are prone to use symbolic language?

Uh?.... Like what? LISP? Prologue?

Re:Harmless?

[Xest]

I third that (is that a thing?). As a UK citizen I do not feel me or my country has been harmed by Snowden's revelations at all, a few irresponsible individuals may have been harmed such as the management in GCHQ who seem to have broken the law but that's a different thing.

For British citizens it's a good thing because it shows how we don't need to waste billions on the Interception Modernisation Program because GCHQ have been doing it anyway and it still didn't stop terrorists.

It also means we're aware of criminality in our political and intelligence classes and it's much better to know crimes have been committed even if nothing is done about them to be blissfully unaware of the fact because it both better informs you who not to vote for and it acts as ammunition against these people getting their own way on other things that are against the public interest in future lessening their capacity to pull them off.

So yes this is an excellent thing all around, even for those of us in countries that have been embarrassed by the revelations. I didn't vote for this, I explicitly voted against it by voting Lib Dem last election and so did everyone who voted Tory who were also against the policy and we were, combined, over 50% of the electorate, although the Tories have tried to backtrack the Lib Dems have at least stood their ground to kill the IMP twice now which is exactly what the majority of the electorate voted for in this democracy. If GCHQ is going ahead and doing this against the will of the majority of the electorate and against the majority of politicians in power through the published election policies of their parties then we the electorate have a fundamental right to know.

Thank you Snowden for fulfilling that right when vested interests would go against our democratic will and deny us it.

Re:Ouch!

[realityimpaired]

for most european countries citizens it wouldn't be even legal to be spying on other countries(to do espionage abroad). for NSA faculty it's legal.
so a lot of the intelligence - which isn't a lot at all - we gather is by trading information with others.

I thought it wasn't legal, actually... NSA is for internal, CIA is for external. Kind of like the distinction between MI5 and MI6 in the UK...

Re:The only way to teach the police statesome resp

[Xest]

To be fair that's already happening to a large degree. US bases are shutting down en-mass in Europe.

Just the other week the last A10s left so they're very much in exit mode from Europe as an ongoing process. They have no presence at all in many European countries now and even the UK hosts I believe only about 4 air bases, not all (none?) of which are even US exclusive. The US marines only have one base left in the whole of Europe now too IIRC.

Personnel is down to well under 75,000 troops now in the whole of Europe I believe, which spread across a continent of over 700 million people is pretty negligible and that number is decreasing regularly. I believe their largest deployment is still Germany with about 40,000 troops, followed by Italy with about 10,000 and the UK with about 9000. Countries like France and the Scanadinavian nations have none whatsoever (other than for short training/join exercise visits, no permanent deployments).

Never going to happen

[nospam007]

Everybody knew this, in the back of his head, the sudden gasps are a bit melodramatic.

Re:Contients?

[jareth-0205]

It's a figure of speech you pedantic arse. What a waste of a post.

Re:Harmless?

[White Flame]

Harm? What harm? This is /exactly/ what needs to happen in order to start to correct the systemic violations and illegal (unconstitional) laws. I believe international pushback is going to be more effective than the actions of the US citizens in these cases.

Re:The only way to teach the police statesome resp

[Anonymous Coward]

This may come as a surprise to you, but most people regard ongoing abuse as worse than past abuse. Which is probably a big part of why Germany has better relations with its neighbors than Israel does, or why France and the UK maintain cordial ties with most of their former colonies, even those that had to fight a war to become former colonies.

Re:Ouch!

[Will.Woodhull]

It seems the Europeans see a difference between the ancient and honorable spying of one government on another and wholesale invasion of every citizen's privacy. The USA has gone way beyond what has always been considered accepted practice.

If the EU does stop the PNR, I doubt it will affect air travel to the USA for very long. Too much of USA financial activities are tied up in airlines, and the airlines will not be profitable without the European routes. If the EU takes this step, it will force a conflict in the USA between profit mongers and security mongers. And in the USA, profit always trumps everything else.

Re:Ouch!

[0111 1110]

Your link doesn't work for me. I get a blank page with a NYT banner at the top. You do realize that saying something 100 times does not make it any more true. If you have evidence of European allies spying on the US then go ahead and trot it out.

Re:Ouch!

[varmfskii]

I thought it wasn't legal, actually... NSA is for internal, CIA is for external. Kind of like the distinction between MI5 and MI6 in the UK...

NSA or more properly NSA/CSS has two missions. Signals Intelligence and Information Assurance. They are part of the Department of Defence. MI5's mission is more like part of the FBI's mission. NSA's equivalent in the UK is GCHQ (Government Communications Headquarters).

Re:Ouch!

[bfandreas]

The GCHQ is quite, quite British. The French services have just been outed to act in a similar fashion.
The NSA/GCHQ got caught. In a provable way. Before that there were only suspicions. Rest assured, everybody does it.

Which does NOT make this OK in any way shape or form. Since 9/11(or since the USS Cole incident even) we have been in a permanent state of alarm. 10 years on and all temporary security measures are still in place. All temporary legislation is extended. And it is our own goddam fault.

20 years ago we would have called two public schoolboys who out of a vague sense of dissatisfaction with the American Dream(and because they had no friends)decided to bomb Boston "mad bombers" and locked them away and got on with our lives. Now we watch breathlessly while some talking head reports they may have yelled "allahu akhbar!", call them 'orrible terr'ists and cower behind our officials.
20 years ago we would have called two madmen who in broad daylight committed a stone-age crime for stone-age reasons with stone-age means fucking cavemen and put them behind bars and got on with our lives. But because they called "allahu akhbar" while they hacked away with machetes we call them 'orrible terr'ists and start an enquirey why oh why MI5, MI6, GCHQ and other letters too haven't done anything to stop those two bozos.

Then this Snowden guy turns up and tells world "this is what your security circus costs you in personal freedoms and money" and we call bloody murder.
Frankly I am much more terrified that kids are run over buy a truck than blown to smithereens by 'orrible terr'ists. And rightfully so given the state traffic in front of my house is in.


We have been neutered in the past 20 years and now we wonder why we have not got any balls no more. Happy Fourth to you guys in the US. The rest of the western world also has its "where have our balls gone to" day today. The first truly international Fourth of July is now.

Re:Ouch!

[1s44c]

Funny thing is that I would like to travel to the US for pleasure but since the whole mandatory sexual assault and fingerprinting came into effect some years back I've spent my vacation money elsewhere. I don't mind getting a visa although it is a pain, but I really don't want to be fingerprinted and treated like a criminal thanks.

Re:Ouch!

[1s44c]

A passenger list and passport and visa numbers are fine, but why does the US government want the credit card information of passengers?

Now you pissed me off

[fritsd]

Thats funny. From the place that tried to exterminate Jews just a few decades ago, and to this day continues to say they need to be exterminated so the Palistinians will be happy. I don't think anyone in the EU can stand on any high ground when it comes to morality. Not that the US government can either, but at least the US government isn't trying to exterminate millions of people or helping those who are.

How poorly you know you history... it's sickening.

Did you know the reason why so many Jews were murdered in the Netherlands, many more (proportionally) than in other occupied countries? It was because the Amsterdam city government had a detailed database of the people, including religion, so that when the government was taken over by the Nazis in 1940, they only had too look up the addresses of the Jews. (Amsterdam has historically had lots of Jews that fled from Spain in previous centuries I believe). One of the most courageous terrorist acts in the 2nd world war in the Netherlands was the assault on the Amsterdam population register in 1943 (in Dutch); the attackers wanted to prevent this government database to be used for genocide. They all got a neckshot as thanks for it (look up Waalsdorpervlakte).
And now, l' histoire se repête... the current USA government under Obama is collecting a massive database on *everyone*, no doubt including their religious beliefs (could be Muslims for all you know!). And you're fine with that. And you just have to wait to see how all this data is going to be used in 10, 20, 50 years, by Michèle Bachmann or Nehemiah Scudder or I don't know who you want to elect as president when the going gets tough. Stupid.

N.B. although many cowardly Dutch betrayed their Jewish neighbours, many others got the Yad Vashem award. And most of my people's ancestors just "hid intheir houses with the curtains closed" as was most prudent and sensible.

Re:The only way to teach the police statesome resp

[cheesybagel]

It may not fit your little world view properly but Hitler did not restrict himself to killing Jews during the Holocaust. Of course none of the other groups targeted by him have quite the same degree of control of the media as the Jewish people does. Who cares about Roma or Slavs dying?

You don't know what you are talking about. It was in the best financial interests of the EU to keep buying cheap Iranian oil. That we went with the US in their little charade in which we get more expensive oil while Iran still manages to offload theirs to China is proof enough that the EU is abiding by the sanctions. So you whine about alumina exports like this is a huge weapons deal with Iran or something. Alumina is neither rare nor directly applicable to make modern weapons.

Had France never sold you the nuclear reactors and expertise you used to make your atomic program there probably wouldn't even be an Israel today.

As for Germany they gave you a couple of submarines you use to keep that arm of your nuclear triad going.

The US gives you a continuous stream of dollars each year to buy military equipment to defend your country.

A bunch of whiners and ingrates that is what you are.

The EU must punish the US

[thetoadwarrior]

Seems to me with the amount of spying that they're doing with Germany they're doing just what they claimed the Chinese do and that's steal secrets to give their economy an advantage. The US thinks the Chinese doing it is an act of war so surely this is and the US should abide by their own standards so the trade deal should be called off, they should boot US troops out of Europe and make Obama apologise publicly for America's nazi-like spying regine.

The European economy isn't strong enough to be having Americans cheat in business.

It's not like this wouldn't be the first time the US has done this: http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm (section 10.7) and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#Industriespionage:_Der_Fall_Kenetech_Windpower_Inc.

Oh and this was entertaining: https://soundcloud.com/madiha-1/students-question-the-nsa-at

Re:Harmless?

[erroneus]

No, it's not a better question and your response attempts to dodge the issue entirely. So I will rephrase it.

Because a company is a US company and/or heavily influenced by the US government, can you still trust it?

I am not kidding myself that alternatives to Microsoft and Oracle and all that are viable. Oracle is a ridiculously overpriced brand name that can be replaced with alternatives and even if, for whatever reason something else may not be "good enough" on its own, with the reduced price additional servers and computing resources can be added with only a portion of the savings of dumping Oracle to make up any difference. The only problem remaining is that applications may be written to be Oracle specific. That would be just part of the pain of moving to something else -- it's not because Oracle is "better" but, like Microsoft, is entrenched.

Consider this. Business did pretty well without Windows PCs for quite some time. And as technology grew, it may have made some advances which took advantage of the advances, but much like modern household eletrical tools and appliances, housework still takes roughly the same amount of time to do. Business and government would fare no differently in the decision were made to transition over to something which could be trusted. And once a large economy like Europe starts using and especially developing F/OSS software, not only would it be more trusted (the software), but any "disparities" between contemporary commercial equivalents would likely be filled in with the improvements contributed by the EU developers. And yes, US patents would be completely ignored if any were to be infringed upon... software patents are already about to be a lost commodity in the US and have been very rejected in the EU.

Europe is a large population of people. They do not export much that isn't uniquely its own. Therefore, competitiveness isn't a huge issue. Europe is actually the most eligible of economies for making the transition away from US products. And they already do pretty well without our GM corn and other such crap.

So in summary, it can ALL be replaced. All of it. With something that can be trusted. And for a period of time, it can be done without because that's what people did before they had these wonderful things to begin with.

Overestimating one's own value as they are now is pure hubris.

Re:Ouch!

[Will.Woodhull]

There comes a point where quantitative increases in an activity qualitatively change that activity. The USA has gone well beyond that point in its spying and snooping.

The NSA database is an open invitation to abuse. Sooner or later, lists will be compiled from these databases to be sold to corporations or used by political action groups, or vigilantes, next year's equivalent of the KKK, some "church" like the Scientologists to harrass their foes, or the highly moral Catholic Church to smother their latest child abuse scandal. It does not matter what the intentions of those who have set up the NSA database might be. What matters is that no human institution, not even churches with their emphasis on moral principles, is secure against the abuses that those without ethical constraints will inflict on the innocent given the opportunity and the possibility of some kind of profit, or some way to avoid a disturbance in the smooth pleasures of their lives.

The NSA database provides the opportunity for all kinds of abuse to be made by those with no moral encumbrances. The NSA has less capability of screening its database operatives for moral integrity than the Catholic Church has always had in screening its Bishops. That database is going to be abused.

Consider this: If Snowden at his low level of access could have garnered so much data, then how likely is it that someone with an even lower level of clearance could build a list of individuals who have had email contacts with cancer clinics? And how much would that list be worth to an insurance broker who wanted to exclude higher risk customers?

The NSA and any other rogue instruments of the USA government need to reigned in. Those civil servants who do not understand the commitment to upholding the USA Constitution need to be drummed out of office, if not sent to prison for violation of their oaths of office. Mechanisms may need to be created to prevent anything like this dangerous situation from happening again.

There is no excuse for creating this kind of terrible situation. The USA can survive any amount of terrorist activity: it is a strong country even though at times it seems like it is more concerned with safety than it is with liberty. But the USA cannot survive the corruption of its Constitution by elements within its Civil Service.