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EU To Vote On Suspension of Data Sharing With US
New submitter badzilla writes with a story from ZDnet that says a vote is scheduled in the European Parliament for today, U.S. Independence Day, on "whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents should be suspended, following allegations that U.S. intelligence spied on EU citizens." One interesting scenario outlined by the article is that it may disrupt air travel between the U.S. and EU: "In the resolution, submitted to the Parliament on Tuesday, more than two-dozen politicians from a range of political parties call the spying 'a serious violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations,' and call on the suspension of the Passenger Name Records (PNR) system. Prior to leaving the airport, airlines must make passenger data available to the U.S. Names, dates of birth, addresses, credit or debit card details and seat numbers are among the data — though critics say the information has never helped catch a suspected criminal or terrorist before. Should the PNR system be suspended, it could result in the suspension of flights to the U.S. from European member states."
Microsoft. Microsoft Microsoft?
Quite a mess this Snowden is creating huh!!
The British GCHQ taps fibre connections, collects data on EU citizens and shares it with US intelligence services. In response the EU wants to stop sharing information on passenger records for people flying between the EU and the USA. .... Well I suppose its easier than suggesting that EU governments should not spy on its citizens.
The equivalent of recalling an ambassador for the "intelligence" community.
"whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents"
I wasn't aware that the EU is a continent. So far I thought it's just an organization of some 20 states from one continent, leaving out a few other states from the same continent.
And the USA isn't a continent either: Canada would likely object, and Hawaii might, too.
That would interfere with their trade in nuclear secrets, the money laundering for the remaining Taliban and Al Queda refugees holed up there and stop pretending that they're an ally in the "war on terror" as they carefully play both sides against the middle to handle so much of the spy traffic there.
Or the EU could just follow the Pakistan lead and make all the data they provide fake, while they sell yet *another* set of data under the table, that is also fake.
Well, it looks like Snowden's actions continue to bear fruit in harming both the US and its allies. I suppose the US could start exposing the spying of various European countries occurring in the US as a "teachable moment." There is plenty of it going on. Of course that would probably result in considerable unpleasantness.
Whomever Snowden's handler is will probably receive a commendation. The Soviets tried for years to split the US and Europe, and never really managed it.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
They knew it all along... This "pause" is to show Europeans they still have the power over the government so please don't rebel!
Europe is US's bitch.
It's cute to see Swede^H^H^H^H^H the EU pretend it has balls and stand up to the Reich^H^H^H^H^H United States. ;)
Face it, guys; the Fascists have already got their One World Government; they've even given it a warm and fuzzy Progressive/Socialist facade that everytbody on both sides of the ocean (whether they love it or hate it) has bought hook, line and sinker.
Yeah, like this is going to happen. The most affected airlines would be US owned ones. Do you think they will let their trained terriers in the US Govt. allow that? Can you calculate the odds between zero and none?
We spy on them, they spy on us.. Everyone spies on everyone else, get real.
Evidently, the US doesn't need the data sharing agreements. They seem to be pretty good at getting the data they want with or without any agreements.
We are far to extended anyway and need to be more of an isolationist. AND secure that damned border while we are at it.
Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.
The US needs a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy.
Nevermind the NSA conspiracy theories, the corps are already doing it almost everything and what they aren't doing the cops are.
Nothing else can stop the march of technology that can and is wholesale systematically slaughtering our privacy. Technology makes it possible to systematically monitor your every move from the time you leave your house to the time return and every interaction you make when you go online, every phone call, instant message, email and mailed letter.
Frankly I can't blame the Euro's for withholding the data, we have jack for data privacy protection, nevermind the whole NSA bit. Almost none of our data has to be encrypted and our standards for protecting data are a joke. We collect everything, dispose of almost nothing and sell or rent it all to the highest bidder. sigh...
Other countries would be monitoring communications in just the same way if they had the opportunity to do so...
By making use of and becoming dependent on US products and US services you walked right into it, and the US government doesn't even pretend to offer any rights to foreigners located outside its borders. The constitution is for US citizens.
If you don't like being spied on by the US government, don't use products from companies under their jurisdiction.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
New polls show the majority of Americans now think the NSA went too far, so no, not US and its allies, an out of control General who lied to Congress and the EU and kept all of the illegal stuff he was up to secret from everyone, including the legislative branch who WERE LIED TO.
Snowden let Americans find out what the lying toerag was up to, he also let EU see what the lying toerag was up to.
If they choose to end the data sharing agreement I will feel safer in Europe, because when I'm in Europe I get to vote for my leadership and the data protection is done by them. I don't get to vote for an out of control lying General in the USA appointed by Bush and able to hang on by deception.
If I was American, I don't even get to vote for General Alexander, and the people I do get to vote for are lied to by him.
" The Soviets tried for years to split the US and Europe, and never really managed it."
The USA and EU are united, we both have privacy protection and democracy. Putin on the other hand has spoken out defending General Alexanders spying.
So fuck off.
Normally, when someone gets caught doing something that is really, really wrong, stopping doing it is the first response. However, the discussion so far has focussed on some random details of the systematic warrantless wiretapping, not on how and when it is going to stop.
So again my question: when will the U.S. and other 'free' countries stop spying on innocent civilians, companies and governments?
There is an interesting side effect about this data problem: the cloud.
Currently, the biggest cloud providers are based in US.
But due to the NSA disclosure, most companies cannot afford to give their data to outside countries, especially since it's now clear that NSA spied european companies economically.
So local cloud providers will quickly emerge, and this will directly impact Google and Amazon's services.
US clouds cannot be trusted anymore.
Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.
But the US has Guns and bases in europe. How I wish the europeans would grow a pair of balls and kick the americans out of europe. Sixth fleet go home. No more american nuclear submarines stationed in Sardinia. No more bases in Germany, Italy and Spain, Turkey, and the UK. We also need to rediscuss what NATO is about and why the hell we're spending money on this cold war era relic.
Thats funny. From the place that tried to exterminate Jews just a few decades ago, and to this day continues to say they need to be exterminated so the Palistinians will be happy.
I don't think anyone in the EU can stand on any high ground when it comes to morality. Not that the US government can either, but at least the US government isn't trying to exterminate millions of people or helping those who are.
Very luke-warm response from the EU politicians. France will "consider suspending trade negotiations for 2 weeks", The EU will now "suspend data sharing talks". Well 2 big woopdiedoo's. The real trade negotiations are well hidden from the EU PUBLIC (Not he NSA of course :), and the snoopers from the NSA already have our data, there is no need to share. We already give it!
THATS the real issue for Europeans people... WTF don't our politicians CARE about this? That scares me more then the whole snooping.
You're a paranoid idiot.
<pedantry> "Continent" is an ambiguous word, it's explicit meaning can only be derived through association with one of the defining conventions. Also the non-"member states" are known as countries. EU !== US </pedantry>
Given that "continent" in the least strict sense just means very large land mass, it's not much of a stretch to loosely describe the EU and US as two continents given the proportion of land or definition of continent they occupy (Europe, Americas).
the hard drive 7o about who can rant
That's some remarkably racist shit coming from a slave owner.
If the EU stops providing the data, and the U.S. blocks flights, how long do you think it will last. The U.S. will realize how much they are being harmed by their tantrum and be forced to stop it. Sure, the EU will suffer a few problems too, but I would think it is more closely linked to other countries in Eurasia and Africa than with North America. America is more reliant on connections to other continents (requiring a lot of air travel) than is Europe. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope America lets its business leaders make it a true second rate nation by outsourcing everything. Then they won't have as much weight to throw around. In any case, it's time to stand up to their bullying. The white hat they think they wear has turned dirty grey, at least. It's amazing how treating your friends like enemies can change opinions.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
"Why not just legalise what we do or not?"
You GCHQ/NSA lot don't get it do you?? It's written right into your constitution, it's written right there into EU rights law. It's not limited to the spying on politicians. They spied on EVERYONE and EVERYONE is protected from this surveillance. Both in the USA and in Europe.
So GCHQ collected this data, and gave a feed to the NSA and NSA is collecting exabytes of data too. They stick it in a database.
The General in charge come along, today he's decided to examine people who visited the NRA website, because he decided that pro-gun lobby might be terrorists and he wants to see who they are.
Or he doesn't like Occupy Wallstreet because his broker thinks they're bad, so he spies on them.
Or he decides that victims of medicine side effects might terrorize a pharma company and so pulls up those who sent emails to the class action lawyer representing the case.
Or he sees people on Slashdot think he's a dick, and are angry with him, so he decides to spy on Slashdot.
Or he decides mums on Mumsnet are complaining too much about some contaminated baby food, those domestic extremists!
Or he decides uppety Brits are voting for a leader he doesn't like, so he leaks some emails (that's how the last leader took over in New Zealand, someone leaked private embarrassing emails).
The law protects ordinary people from people like him. Its there for a reason. Since 2010 alone, there have been 20 military coups in the world. There has been no successful takeover of a nation by a foreign terrorist group since... well the middle ages? The vikings maybe? It's always the dull boring grey Putin figure that ends up grabbing the power.
" If I was forced to enter the US now, I'd do so for as short a time as possible and carry no electronic equipment whatsoever and encrypt all communications home."
I cancelled my Thanksgiving visit to USA, it's not a safe place now.
I had no intention of going to the US in the first place. I won't go there as long as the fingerprinting, cancer machines and other general invasions of privacy are cut out. It's a shame, as I'd love to do a coast to coast road trip in a lovely rented Cadillac.
(don't get me started on the amount of information my Polish wife has to provide the US embassy just to get a visa)
The NSA and other three-letter agencies harmed the US (and the rest of the world) with their anti-social behaviour
Funny, slavery was outlawed over 100 years ago in the US. To this day France is helping Iran in their attempt to wipe out Israel, and none of the other EU countries will even say anything about it.
Truth stings, don't it.
Abolition in the U.S. was decades after most of Europe, and you had to fight a civil war over it.
However, I agree that trying to compare the morality of America with Europe is silly, since you're both pretty guilty.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Next, remember that the UK doesn't demand the rest of the EU give over flight data like that, therefore if the EU were to suspend doing that, there would be no difference.
To be fair that's already happening to a large degree. US bases are shutting down en-mass in Europe.
Just the other week the last A10s left so they're very much in exit mode from Europe as an ongoing process. They have no presence at all in many European countries now and even the UK hosts I believe only about 4 air bases, not all (none?) of which are even US exclusive. The US marines only have one base left in the whole of Europe now too IIRC.
Personnel is down to well under 75,000 troops now in the whole of Europe I believe, which spread across a continent of over 700 million people is pretty negligible and that number is decreasing regularly. I believe their largest deployment is still Germany with about 40,000 troops, followed by Italy with about 10,000 and the UK with about 9000. Countries like France and the Scanadinavian nations have none whatsoever (other than for short training/join exercise visits, no permanent deployments).
Yes, France is helping Iran by being one of the leading countries in the EU pushing for crippling sanctions being placed on Iran's economy such that it has leading to it's complete economic collapse.
Wait, what?
From the place that tried to exterminate Jews just a few decades ago...
Funny, to hear that from the country that ended racial segregation only in 1964. And of course, the motives of 1940s Nazi-germany can be generalized to all the remaining countries....70 years later, still. Maybe this one will enlighten you.
...and to this day continues to say they need to be exterminated so the Palistinians will be happy.
Citation needed. From more than a few nut cases, that happen to reside in Europe.
Yes, both have very dirty hands. Europe much more so though.
There were some pretty nasty genocidal maniacs running around in Europe just 60 years ago. Much more recently than the US Civil War.
Of course Europeans don't want to be reminded of that, or the incredible history of wars in their past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe
Everybody knew this, in the back of his head, the sudden gasps are a bit melodramatic.
ah badzilla i have been waiting for you to reveal yourself
http://www.reporo.com
It's just bad for business. Ain't gonna happen.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
After WWII, Germans of course had no expectation of privacy relative to US and UK intelligence services because those intelligence services were concerned with finding enemies of democracy and war criminals. That arrangement also turned out to be useful for both the US and Germany during the Cold War. Germany has never demanded that that arrangement end. It's weird that Germans are surprised by this or think that this is a "problem". If Germany doesn't want US espionage on its soil, fine, the first step would be for it to ask for that to happen.
As for "blaming the messenger", blame for what? Do you think Americans care much whether Europeans have visa-less travel to the US? Given the trade deficit, do you think Americans care much about free trade with the EU? Economically, these measures may be slightly beneficial to Americans, but politically, they play badly. If the EU doesn't want these deals, it's easy for US politicians to walk away from them.
This may come as a surprise to you, but most people regard ongoing abuse as worse than past abuse. Which is probably a big part of why Germany has better relations with its neighbors than Israel does, or why France and the UK maintain cordial ties with most of their former colonies, even those that had to fight a war to become former colonies.
Europe can't take the high ground here. Europeans effectively continued slavery in their colonies until the mid-20th century. And the abandonment of slavery and feudalism in Europe wasn't due to some enlightened social views, it was due to the fact that mechanization had made it unprofitable.
The US is already pulling out of Europe in a pretty big way. It's an expense that we can ill afford these days. They will simply have to go up against the bear on their own. Good luck with that.
The US provides the lion's share of the operational funds for NATO, and has pretty much every year since the treaty was first signed. If the Europeans think that they are better off without a mutual defense treaty that they regularly default on in both military and monetary means, then they are welcome to withdraw.
The only thing that the US gets out of all the blood and money it has spent protecting Europe is global stability. Does the globe look terribly stable to you at the moment? We're way past the point of diminishing returns, so if you guys want to go it alone, be our guests. In case you haven't noticed, we're having a bit of money trouble over here, and it would certainly help to be able to spend those trillions of dollars elsewhere.
US is the only country in the world to have used atomic bombs....
Lets hope they suspend the sharing of the "swift" financial records too.
American Indians, Jim Crow, need I go on?
It's a bit naive to think the big players worldwide aren't doing the same thing the NSA is doing (they're just not as well funded). Europe with it's "terrorist attacks" on trains and planes that enabled the government to install camera's EVERYWHERE and armed guards at most transit locations. All in the name of "security and freedom". All of this started prior to 9/11 mind you!
This is a show! The US got caught with it's hand in the cookie jar. It will receive a slap on the wrist for getting caught not for having it's hand in the cookie jar.
This whole US+Brits massive communication snooping+espionage and Bon Ki Moon personally denouncing E. Snowden for informing the UN and EU not to leave out Asia and South America and Africa that their offices are bugged and the US Director of National Intelligence telling the US Congress that he gave erroneous testimony because he "forgot", i.e. the dog ate my homework, looks day-by-day like a Monty Python show from the '70s!
The US needs a Coup d'état to out the real criminals like Obama and his unelected government to good old fashion way.
Holocaust denied by Iran's leader, meanwhile Iran is importing from France and Germany illegally around scantions because the EU still wants the Jews killed, but won't publically admit it.
Didn't think I was that dead on, I really hit a nerve with my original post, and no one else has been able to counter what I said. You bunch of anti-semite Europe trash. I'm glad I don't live there, I can barely stand that hatred of the DNC here in the US.
On one hand, my government needs to learn a lesson, on another, strained relations are bad. Hmm.
There were some pretty nasty genocidal maniacs running around in Europe just 60 years ago.
It takes a considerable amount of balls to play that card after Vietnam, Cambodia, and the so called War on Terror which were all just political power moves back home.
The U.S. has overall been a force for good in the world, but do not fail to consider your failings as well. Military force requires oversight.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
... but despite a wealth of capability and opportunity have managed to abstain from it ever since. (The U.S. has reduced the number of warheads stockpiled by over 80% since 1967)
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Whats that about sanctions being ignored?
Wait, what?
How poorly you know you history... it's sickening.
Did you know the reason why so many Jews were murdered in the Netherlands, many more (proportionally) than in other occupied countries? It was because the Amsterdam city government had a detailed database of the people, including religion, so that when the government was taken over by the Nazis in 1940, they only had too look up the addresses of the Jews. (Amsterdam has historically had lots of Jews that fled from Spain in previous centuries I believe). One of the most courageous terrorist acts in the 2nd world war in the Netherlands was the assault on the Amsterdam population register in 1943 (in Dutch); the attackers wanted to prevent this government database to be used for genocide. They all got a neckshot as thanks for it (look up Waalsdorpervlakte).
And now, l' histoire se repête... the current USA government under Obama is collecting a massive database on *everyone*, no doubt including their religious beliefs (could be Muslims for all you know!). And you're fine with that. And you just have to wait to see how all this data is going to be used in 10, 20, 50 years, by Michèle Bachmann or Nehemiah Scudder or I don't know who you want to elect as president when the going gets tough. Stupid.
N.B. although many cowardly Dutch betrayed their Jewish neighbours, many others got the Yad Vashem award. And most of my people's ancestors just "hid intheir houses with the curtains closed" as was most prudent and sensible.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
They won't do it. They think the US can afford to lose all EU citizens traveling to US, but they can't.
So the US insists on spying on everyone, and the EU isn't wild about that, and is suggesting stopping the whole 'give us the dental records of everyone on the plane' program. And the US is saying 'no more flights', and the EU is saying 'chuck you farley, its your tourist economy, not ours'. The anal twats are the US, not the EU. American flights can visit the EU, tourists galore. European flights suspended from the US, no more tourists. I think tourism amounts to a measly $130.8 Billion per year. Clearly that's a bunch of foreigners running around the US doesn't need. STOP THE FLIGHTS!!! That'll teach those pesky for'ners.
It may not fit your little world view properly but Hitler did not restrict himself to killing Jews during the Holocaust. Of course none of the other groups targeted by him have quite the same degree of control of the media as the Jewish people does. Who cares about Roma or Slavs dying?
You don't know what you are talking about. It was in the best financial interests of the EU to keep buying cheap Iranian oil. That we went with the US in their little charade in which we get more expensive oil while Iran still manages to offload theirs to China is proof enough that the EU is abiding by the sanctions. So you whine about alumina exports like this is a huge weapons deal with Iran or something. Alumina is neither rare nor directly applicable to make modern weapons.
Had France never sold you the nuclear reactors and expertise you used to make your atomic program there probably wouldn't even be an Israel today.
As for Germany they gave you a couple of submarines you use to keep that arm of your nuclear triad going.
The US gives you a continuous stream of dollars each year to buy military equipment to defend your country.
A bunch of whiners and ingrates that is what you are.
Seems to me with the amount of spying that they're doing with Germany they're doing just what they claimed the Chinese do and that's steal secrets to give their economy an advantage. The US thinks the Chinese doing it is an act of war so surely this is and the US should abide by their own standards so the trade deal should be called off, they should boot US troops out of Europe and make Obama apologise publicly for America's nazi-like spying regine.
The European economy isn't strong enough to be having Americans cheat in business.
It's not like this wouldn't be the first time the US has done this: http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm (section 10.7) and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#Industriespionage:_Der_Fall_Kenetech_Windpower_Inc.
Oh and this was entertaining: https://soundcloud.com/madiha-1/students-question-the-nsa-at
The U.S. has overall been a force for good in the world, but do not fail to consider your failings as well. Military force requires oversight.
No worries then - they provide oversights aplenty.
The U.S. has overall been a force for good in the world, but do not fail to consider your failings as well. Military force requires oversight.
No worries then - they provide oversights aplenty.
I know you're being ironic but... On a global scale, significantly better than average. From an ideal perspective, never enough.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Keep in mind: One of the big reasons for the airline data sharing between the EU and USA is the US visa waiver program.
Basically, this means that citizens from EU countries (and a few others, like Japan and Australia) don't need to apply for a visa when traveling to the US. The EU sends over the 'relevant' data prior to their departing, and the traveler him/herself just has to fill out a piece of paper in the plane prior just prior to arrival. A few years ago the EU was questioning why they should provide all the requested info to the US in the first place after privacy watchdogs had complained about the practice. the US reponse was to threaten to discontinue the visa waiver program unless the EU would continue to send passenger information ahead of time.
So... Should the EU indeed stop sharing the info after the latest scandals, then it's quite likely that the visa waivers will be discontinued as well. That would mean that all of a sudden each and every EU traveler would have to deal with their local US embassy and apply for an actual travel visa ahead of time for any trip, instead of just being able to hop on on a last-minute plane trip...
It's hard to say whether what will happen, though: discontinueing the visa waiver program would make it a LOT less convenient to travel across the atlantic, and would in all likelyhood significantly reduce the number of people traveling from the EU to US, thanks to the major added inconvenience in doing so. Can the US airline and tourist industry cope with that loss of traffic?
What about the American Natives? What about Vietnam? KKK?
USA is only a few centuries old, but it's history is full of conflict.
Why not compare the USA with Canada and Australia, since they started all in similar ways.
But you know what? I don't give a damn, they sold their country for Chinese cash, and threw away their rights for an illusion of safety. Ignore them, and they'll go away.
That's rich, coming from a country that to this day portrays a genocidal thug like Andrew Jackson on its currency.
Doesn't matter - they got The Bomb. Game over.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
This is just a non binding resolution. Remember the EU parliament does not have legislative initiative. Only the European Commission can propose a EU directive. The EU parliament is not a real parliament, it is just there so that EU can pretend to be democratic.
Us proved me wrong
I'm saying this from my desk here in Texas, but honestly, Europe should really give us the finger over this one.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Hello!? Anyone said Native americans (Indians)? What about african americans (blacks)?
And about current situation with Palestinians, over exaggerating much? US are more involved in "exterminating" Arabs then EU in "exterminating" jews...
But overall yes, there is no moral high ground for any country in the world, especially if you look up history...
Why doesn't EU vote for ASYLUM to Snowden?
Casteism