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EU To Vote On Suspension of Data Sharing With US
New submitter badzilla writes with a story from ZDnet that says a vote is scheduled in the European Parliament for today, U.S. Independence Day, on "whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents should be suspended, following allegations that U.S. intelligence spied on EU citizens." One interesting scenario outlined by the article is that it may disrupt air travel between the U.S. and EU: "In the resolution, submitted to the Parliament on Tuesday, more than two-dozen politicians from a range of political parties call the spying 'a serious violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations,' and call on the suspension of the Passenger Name Records (PNR) system. Prior to leaving the airport, airlines must make passenger data available to the U.S. Names, dates of birth, addresses, credit or debit card details and seat numbers are among the data — though critics say the information has never helped catch a suspected criminal or terrorist before. Should the PNR system be suspended, it could result in the suspension of flights to the U.S. from European member states."
Don't blame the messenger.
The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.
The British GCHQ taps fibre connections, collects data on EU citizens and shares it with US intelligence services. In response the EU wants to stop sharing information on passenger records for people flying between the EU and the USA. .... Well I suppose its easier than suggesting that EU governments should not spy on its citizens.
Well, it looks like Snowden's actions continue to bear fruit in harming both the US and its allies.
Bull-fucking-shit.
Oh, unless you mean that stopping them from pulling illegal stunts is harm, in which case, fuck you.
What caused harm was the US and UK doing illegal stuff. Do not confuse the messenger with the message.
As a citizen of the UK and therefore EU, I assert that these leaks did good, not harm. How can bringing criminals to account be considered "harmful". How on earth can stopping a massive US over reach in wanting to pile the old haystack every higher with data on EU citizens be considered "harm"?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
The US harmed itself with it's egregious spying.
All Snowden did is expose the bullshit. He didn't cause the bullshit. That's squarely on the backs of the NSA and the US government's "secret" legislation.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Not like this. Only the US and its technology companies have the presense and ubiquity to pull something off at this level and scale.
These are reasons to dump Microsoft and Cisco ASAP. Additionally, to begin looking much more carefully at all US products including cars and aircraft. They should all be treated with suspicion at this point.
Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.
Bring out the proof then.
This isn't the first time that the US has been caught with this kind of shit and there have been several cases where the US has used illegally gathered information to get favorable deals during business negotiations rather than to just use it for national security issues.
I suspect that you only can find information of French being in the same club and even then only as a response to shit the US spies did against them.
Evidently, the US doesn't need the data sharing agreements. They seem to be pretty good at getting the data they want with or without any agreements.
I second that. There is no harm here, only good. It is long overdue that the EU starts crawling out of the American arse. The only EU country that is an ally to the USA is the UK. Everyone else are more like vassals.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Remind them the EU is the largest economy in the world and that we will are morally more entitled to set the rules for the democratic world. Not them, not anymore.
Don't blame the messenger.
The root of the problem are the far reaching spying activities of the NSA, not the fact that somebody blew the whistle.
I wonder how many of the politicians (domestic & foreign) who are demanding investigations based on his revelations are stepping up to the plate and trying to keep him out of prison.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Don't kid yourself about European nations engaging in spying as well, including inside the US and their own neighbors.
for most european countries citizens it wouldn't be even legal to be spying on other countries(to do espionage abroad). for NSA faculty it's legal.
so a lot of the intelligence - which isn't a lot at all - we gather is by trading information with others.
however, this isn't about even that kind of information trading. this is just about the EU providing things like flight passenger lists for european flights to americans, providing our bank statements to americans.. that was done pretty much just as goodwill for the "war on terror" effort. now it's getting obvious and over the table that the data isn't being kept with any sanctity - that once the data goes to usa they don't give a fuck about where it came from since it's from outside the usa they think they can do anything with it.
so yeah, fuck off. abusing privileges tends to end up in losing them. if you can't be bothered to put on any legal rules on access to the data even then why the fuck should we be providing you with all our data which could be used among other things to manipulate stock markets? why?
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Our Constitution defines Treason very specifically as giving aid or shelter to an Enemy.
or in levying war against the united states. However, there is an additional element to the "aid and comfort" clause.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
From Cramer v US 325 US 1 (1945)
Thus the crime of treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy; and rendering him aid and comfort. A citizen intellectually or emotionally may favor the enemy and harbor sympathies or convictions disloyal to this country's policy or interest, but so long as he commits no act of aid and comfort to the enemy, there is no treason. On the other hand, a citizen may take actions, which do aid and comfort the enemy-making a speech critical of the government or opposing its measures, profiteering, striking in defense plants or essential work, and the hundred other things which impair our cohesion and diminish our strength but if there is no adherence to the enemy in this, if there is no intent to betray, there is no treason.
Luckily for the authoritarians, sedition laws--in particular, Seditious Conspiracy have filled in the gaps.
There is an interesting side effect about this data problem: the cloud.
Currently, the biggest cloud providers are based in US.
But due to the NSA disclosure, most companies cannot afford to give their data to outside countries, especially since it's now clear that NSA spied european companies economically.
So local cloud providers will quickly emerge, and this will directly impact Google and Amazon's services.
US clouds cannot be trusted anymore.
All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies. I think it's expected to happen and only when it becomes public do the players pretend to be outraged.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930418&slug=1696416
Very luke-warm response from the EU politicians. France will "consider suspending trade negotiations for 2 weeks", The EU will now "suspend data sharing talks". Well 2 big woopdiedoo's. The real trade negotiations are well hidden from the EU PUBLIC (Not he NSA of course :), and the snoopers from the NSA already have our data, there is no need to share. We already give it!
THATS the real issue for Europeans people... WTF don't our politicians CARE about this? That scares me more then the whole snooping.
If the EU stops providing the data, and the U.S. blocks flights, how long do you think it will last. The U.S. will realize how much they are being harmed by their tantrum and be forced to stop it. Sure, the EU will suffer a few problems too, but I would think it is more closely linked to other countries in Eurasia and Africa than with North America. America is more reliant on connections to other continents (requiring a lot of air travel) than is Europe. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope America lets its business leaders make it a true second rate nation by outsourcing everything. Then they won't have as much weight to throw around. In any case, it's time to stand up to their bullying. The white hat they think they wear has turned dirty grey, at least. It's amazing how treating your friends like enemies can change opinions.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
I had no intention of going to the US in the first place. I won't go there as long as the fingerprinting, cancer machines and other general invasions of privacy are cut out. It's a shame, as I'd love to do a coast to coast road trip in a lovely rented Cadillac.
(don't get me started on the amount of information my Polish wife has to provide the US embassy just to get a visa)
> The US needs a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to privacy.
No, it doesn't. The Constitutional right to privacy is already well established in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_privacy#United_States
The problem is that it is not observed.
All the major players spy on each other. Even their allies.
In the past, the convention was to spy on governments or their agencies (who might or might not be spies themselves).
A sledgehammer approach whereby the US imagines that it is somehow OK to spy on citizens of other nations, on a wholesale basis, with no regard to "probable cause" or any of those other convenient elisions is totally unconscionable.
Suspension of data sharing is nothing more than a mumble where real sanctions should be applied. They should be quarantining all human traffic from or to the US, and banning all trade. If the US administration does not choose to operate by civilised rules, then it should be treated as the international pariah that it has become.
I third that (is that a thing?). As a UK citizen I do not feel me or my country has been harmed by Snowden's revelations at all, a few irresponsible individuals may have been harmed such as the management in GCHQ who seem to have broken the law but that's a different thing.
For British citizens it's a good thing because it shows how we don't need to waste billions on the Interception Modernisation Program because GCHQ have been doing it anyway and it still didn't stop terrorists.
It also means we're aware of criminality in our political and intelligence classes and it's much better to know crimes have been committed even if nothing is done about them to be blissfully unaware of the fact because it both better informs you who not to vote for and it acts as ammunition against these people getting their own way on other things that are against the public interest in future lessening their capacity to pull them off.
So yes this is an excellent thing all around, even for those of us in countries that have been embarrassed by the revelations. I didn't vote for this, I explicitly voted against it by voting Lib Dem last election and so did everyone who voted Tory who were also against the policy and we were, combined, over 50% of the electorate, although the Tories have tried to backtrack the Lib Dems have at least stood their ground to kill the IMP twice now which is exactly what the majority of the electorate voted for in this democracy. If GCHQ is going ahead and doing this against the will of the majority of the electorate and against the majority of politicians in power through the published election policies of their parties then we the electorate have a fundamental right to know.
Thank you Snowden for fulfilling that right when vested interests would go against our democratic will and deny us it.
It's a figure of speech you pedantic arse. What a waste of a post.
It seems the Europeans see a difference between the ancient and honorable spying of one government on another and wholesale invasion of every citizen's privacy. The USA has gone way beyond what has always been considered accepted practice.
If the EU does stop the PNR, I doubt it will affect air travel to the USA for very long. Too much of USA financial activities are tied up in airlines, and the airlines will not be profitable without the European routes. If the EU takes this step, it will force a conflict in the USA between profit mongers and security mongers. And in the USA, profit always trumps everything else.
Will
The GCHQ is quite, quite British. The French services have just been outed to act in a similar fashion.
The NSA/GCHQ got caught. In a provable way. Before that there were only suspicions. Rest assured, everybody does it.
Which does NOT make this OK in any way shape or form. Since 9/11(or since the USS Cole incident even) we have been in a permanent state of alarm. 10 years on and all temporary security measures are still in place. All temporary legislation is extended. And it is our own goddam fault.
20 years ago we would have called two public schoolboys who out of a vague sense of dissatisfaction with the American Dream(and because they had no friends)decided to bomb Boston "mad bombers" and locked them away and got on with our lives. Now we watch breathlessly while some talking head reports they may have yelled "allahu akhbar!", call them 'orrible terr'ists and cower behind our officials.
20 years ago we would have called two madmen who in broad daylight committed a stone-age crime for stone-age reasons with stone-age means fucking cavemen and put them behind bars and got on with our lives. But because they called "allahu akhbar" while they hacked away with machetes we call them 'orrible terr'ists and start an enquirey why oh why MI5, MI6, GCHQ and other letters too haven't done anything to stop those two bozos.
Then this Snowden guy turns up and tells world "this is what your security circus costs you in personal freedoms and money" and we call bloody murder.
Frankly I am much more terrified that kids are run over buy a truck than blown to smithereens by 'orrible terr'ists. And rightfully so given the state traffic in front of my house is in.
We have been neutered in the past 20 years and now we wonder why we have not got any balls no more. Happy Fourth to you guys in the US. The rest of the western world also has its "where have our balls gone to" day today. The first truly international Fourth of July is now.
20 minutes into the future
How poorly you know you history... it's sickening.
Did you know the reason why so many Jews were murdered in the Netherlands, many more (proportionally) than in other occupied countries? It was because the Amsterdam city government had a detailed database of the people, including religion, so that when the government was taken over by the Nazis in 1940, they only had too look up the addresses of the Jews. (Amsterdam has historically had lots of Jews that fled from Spain in previous centuries I believe). One of the most courageous terrorist acts in the 2nd world war in the Netherlands was the assault on the Amsterdam population register in 1943 (in Dutch); the attackers wanted to prevent this government database to be used for genocide. They all got a neckshot as thanks for it (look up Waalsdorpervlakte).
And now, l' histoire se repête... the current USA government under Obama is collecting a massive database on *everyone*, no doubt including their religious beliefs (could be Muslims for all you know!). And you're fine with that. And you just have to wait to see how all this data is going to be used in 10, 20, 50 years, by Michèle Bachmann or Nehemiah Scudder or I don't know who you want to elect as president when the going gets tough. Stupid.
N.B. although many cowardly Dutch betrayed their Jewish neighbours, many others got the Yad Vashem award. And most of my people's ancestors just "hid intheir houses with the curtains closed" as was most prudent and sensible.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?