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Xerox Photocopiers Randomly Alter Numbers, Says German Researcher

First time accepted submitter sal_park writes "According to a report from German computer scientist D. Kriesel, some Xerox WorkCentre copiers and scanners may alter numbers that appear in scanned documents. Having analyzed the output of two such devices, the Xerox WorkCentre 7535 and 7556, Kriesel found that "patches of the pixel data are randomly replaced in a very subtle and dangerous way": in particular, some numbers appearing in a document may be replaced by other numbers when it is scanned."

77 of 290 comments (clear)

  1. These numbers are not the true numbers by hawkinspeter · · Score: 4, Funny

    So, it has come to this.

    --
    You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    1. Re:These numbers are not the true numbers by durrr · · Score: 3, Funny

      The dark lord is touching the world, and he's doing it through photocopy machines.

      I would've expected printers or those cheap ISP-provided routers to be his preferred way of evildoing, though I guess even he/it couldn't get those to work properly.

    2. Re: These numbers are not the true numbers by rickb928 · · Score: 4, Funny

      The Dark Lord uses SAP to interact with our world. You know nothing?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    3. Re:These numbers are not the true numbers by Zaatxe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Too much XKCD?

      There is no such thing as "too much XKCD".

      --
      So say we all
    4. Re:These numbers are not the true numbers by davidbrit2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe before we rush to adopt XKCD, we should stop to consider the consequences of blithely giving this technology such a central position in our lives.

  2. Slashdot affected as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Kriesel found that âoepatches of the pixel data are randomly replaced in a very subtle and dangerous wayâ

    Slashdot users are advised not to use Xerox copiers for submissions.

    1. Re:Slashdot affected as well by J'raxis · · Score: 4, Informative

      That bug is caused by Slashdot still refusing to implement this 20-year-old technology. I mean, this being some sort of cutting-edge tech blog and all, who'd expect them to properly support a character-encoding technology that came out two decades ago?

    2. Re:Slashdot affected as well by intermodal · · Score: 5, Funny

      Especially with such an international audience.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    3. Re:Slashdot affected as well by Mr+Z · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, just significantly harder to filter effectively. Also, there were a rash of troll accounts with names that looked like the various Slashdot editors, only using accented variants of letters, such as 'tÍmothy'. All those shenanigans added up to where we are today.

    4. Re:Slashdot affected as well by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but you have that exactly backwards.

      Online publishing is a blight on smart quotes.

      If your publishing can't handle smart quotes, then stop publishing. All they are is a different character. Deal with it properly or GTFO.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    5. Re:Slashdot affected as well by operagost · · Score: 2

      ISO should release a UTF-8.1 standard. They'll all adopt it immediately.

      "My browser uses UTF-8.1. You probably haven't heard of it."

      "I used UTF-8.1 before it was cool."

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    6. Re:Slashdot affected as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Especially with such an international audience.

      You must have missed the memo. Slashdot is a US site that tolerates international visitors. These are not, however, encouraged to return.

    7. Re:Slashdot affected as well by dolmen.fr · · Score: 3, Informative

      Slashdot uses Perl which is the programming language that has the best support for Unicode (while PHP support for this is comparatively almost inexistent).
      But that doesn't make Unicode work magically. The slashcode has to take it into account.

    8. Re:Slashdot affected as well by tibit · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just in case people miss the obvious: The differing opening and closing quotes are the correct punctuation marks. It was only due to the typewriters and teletypes that the mangling into one quote has begun. The MS Office quotes are not "smart", they are merely correct.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    9. Re:Slashdot affected as well by J'raxis · · Score: 2

      Yes, professional-looking typography is such a blight. Instead we should use kludges invented for typewriters and held over since the 1960s in computer charsets because of 7-bit character size limitations.

      Perhaps we should go back to using 'O' for '0' and 'l' for '1', too.

    10. Re:Slashdot affected as well by J'raxis · · Score: 2

      "Smart parentheses" add no value to a document, either. They're just fluff. We should start using | for both opening and closing parentheses, no? We could even use the same symbol in place of "smart brackets" and "smart braces."

    11. Re:Slashdot affected as well by J'raxis · · Score: 4, Informative

      The typo in the article evidences that they were using UTF-8. If a quotation mark is turned into three separate characters, that's the tell-tale that it was UTF-8 (multibyte) and not a Windows code page (all single-byte encodings).

    12. Re:Slashdot affected as well by nmb3000 · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Smart parentheses" add no value to a document, either. They're just fluff. We should start using | for both opening and closing parentheses, no?

      Wow, you've somehow managed to make Lisp even more difficult to read

      |defun proj |y x||+|*|flet ||ip |x y||sum |* x y|||||* |/|ip x y||ip x x||x||x|y||

      Congratulations are in order, but I'm sure people will still keep using it :|

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
  3. oh man, what a mess by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Informative

    Some of these machines have been used for digitizing documents whose originals were later shredded, so some people now have subtly wrong "original" digitals. It's particularly problematic because of the nature of degradation; usual lossy degradation of images is in a non-semantic way, just produces blurring or blocking or other kinds of artifacts, not OCR-error style mistakes.

    The issue here seems to be the lossy mode of JBIG2, which tries to find patches of the image that approximately match, and consolidates them. The idea seems to be that if the letter "e" appears 5000 times in a document in the same typeface, you just store some version of it once, and then reference it everywhere it appears. But now you get OCR-style errors, if you end up matching some patches to incorrect partners. You have your lightly printed "8" replaced by the "0" patch now and then, that kind of thing. And unlike people doing OCR, who know they need to take this into account, the operators of these machines likely had no idea this was even a possible failure mode to watch for, so who knows how many numbers are wrong in miscellaneous documents (letters are a little less problematic, because most random letter mutations don't destroy meaning).

    Blargh.

    1. Re:oh man, what a mess by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yeah, it's not OCR per se, but it operates on a somewhat similar principle to OCR, identifying which numbers are which and consolidating things it thinks are the same glyph. I agree it's much worse, because it alters the actual image. And it does so in a way that still looks plausible and "clean". Really bad lossy compression that just produced a lot of artifacts so that certain numbers were unreadable would at least telegraph that you shouldn't trust the result, but the numbers here look clean and artifact-free, they just happen to be wrong.

    2. Re:oh man, what a mess by iguana · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Could also be a problem with an overly aggressive hole filling algorithm. http://www.mathworks.com/help/images/ref/imfill.html

      I'd expect there's nothing nefarious going on. It's very likely an overly aggressive image processing algorithm.

    3. Re:oh man, what a mess by sh00z · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The issue here seems to be the lossy mode of JBIG2

      combined with the fact that he's complaining about errors in scans of a 7-point font. At that size, it probably only takes two erroneous pixels to change a 6 to an 8.

    4. Re:oh man, what a mess by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ran some numbers to check, and with some assumptions your estimate seems pretty close.

      The modern standard "postscript point" is 1/72 in, so a 7-point font has a height 7/72 inches. The stroke distinguishing the 6 from the 8 is maybe 1/4 of the height, so let's say ~0.025 inches. If the print/scan cycle roundtrips at somewhere in the range 75-150 dpi, that's 2-4 pixels. If you can manage a professional-standard 300 dpi, you get more like 7-8 pixels, but that's a fairly optimistic case.

    5. Re:oh man, what a mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While it isn't nefarious so far as a deliberate plot to destroy documents and their integrity, it is a bug that is of concern for those who want to preserve documents for long-term storage in an archival situation.... such as was the case with the architectural documents being scanned.

      Keep in mind that in some archival situations, the original paper documents are destroyed where the scanned versions in these files are all that remains of those documents. Ultimately, by having the numbers change like this, regardless of why it is happening, now throws serious doubt as to the validity of any of the numbers in that document. This can have an enormous set of consequences if you are using this scanned document as a receipt, for banking purposes (aka the check amount might have a different number than was originally used) or other similar kinds of situations. Engineering offices, banks, and a great many other businesses are shredding mountains of paper and archiving those documents electronically, so it is a big deal.

      I guess it really boils down to understanding the limitations of compression algorithms, and not buy into the hype that a vendor might have where you can save all kinds of storage space with this incredible algorithm.... and find out that all of your documents are worthless when you try to submit them to a judge & jury in a lawsuit as evidence. Perhaps an engineer needs to find the dimensions and tolerance limits of a bolt in an obscure subsystem... and the numbers change? Do you really want to fly in an airplane where the parts specifications have changed because of an error like this? Do you mind if a few hundred or even thousand dollars are taken out of your bank account that you didn't authorize?

    6. Re:oh man, what a mess by Hatta · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's what she said.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    7. Re:oh man, what a mess by dj245 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ran some numbers to check, and with some assumptions your estimate seems pretty close.

      The modern standard "postscript point" is 1/72 in, so a 7-point font has a height 7/72 inches. The stroke distinguishing the 6 from the 8 is maybe 1/4 of the height, so let's say ~0.025 inches. If the print/scan cycle roundtrips at somewhere in the range 75-150 dpi, that's 2-4 pixels. If you can manage a professional-standard 300 dpi, you get more like 7-8 pixels, but that's a fairly optimistic case.

      Why wouldn't you use at least 300dpi?

      Most "serious" office printers print at 600dpi or better, so the information is there. Even my $100 brother laser printer defaults to 600dpi. Every recent office multifuntion I have seen can scan at 200, 300, or 600dpi, but every single one defaults to 200dpi. 200dpi scans are hard on the eyes. I always scan at 600dpi, the file size isn't bad in the age of 300GB laptop hard drives, and if I need to send it to someone external to the company, I can always reduce the size.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    8. Re:oh man, what a mess by N1AK · · Score: 2

      I have to admit I'm actually really surprised by this. The idea and technology are good but I would think it fundamentally breaks a key feature of digitising a document: removing the need to keep the hard copy. The moment the digitised copy is more than an electronic representation of the physical document then the authenticity of anything in the digitised document is in doubt. Can it really be used to prove what someone read and signed for example, even if the chance of an error in any case is 1/10,000?

    9. Re:oh man, what a mess by v1 · · Score: 2

      I think the problem isn't so much the problem recognition, but the reproduction. It may be looking at two numbers that both look about the same, and using the same compressed data to draw both of them back out. Making them look identical. So if you started with two numbers, say one that was 70% like a 6 and 30% like a 8, and another that was 40% like a 6 and 60% like an 8, it's deciding they're "close enough" and is drawing the 70/30 image in both places. A human could figure out the second one was supposed to be an 8 before, but now both of them look like 6's with the same 70/30 confidence.

      If they're going to use such generous "similar consolidation" they've got to be doing a better job of figuring out if that part of the image needs to maintain its high resolution. I think that's what's going on here... it's probably got an algo that's looking for fine text and sharp images, and going with higher quality algorithms in that region of the page, and going with less accurate but more efficient ones in other places where it doesn't think it needs to waste the storage on low res. But that method is failing to find fine text when placed around rough shapes. (and I suspect it's affected by the rest of the content of the page) The article didn't show entire pages well, just small excerpts.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    10. Re:oh man, what a mess by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It could just be a particularly poor JBIG implementation: the format and decompressor is standardized, but the standard doesn't specify how to find the matches, so various companies have their own proprietary versions.

    11. Re:oh man, what a mess by Agent0013 · · Score: 2

      Can't be a hole filling algorithm. The 8 that replaces the 6 still has the little dent on the left between the two round parts. It isn't just filling in the 6 to make an 8, it is actually replacing the 6 with a copy of the 8 from elsewhere on the page.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  4. JBIG2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Caused by misconfigured JBIG2 compression. When pixel error rate is low enough, similar looking features get printed with the same subimage.

  5. Re:Mission Impossible 4? by Entropius · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's Xenu, not Xerox.

  6. Re:Some image smoothing algorithm... by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is not smoothing, distortion or individual pad pixels. Entire image patches are copied incorrectly, essentially repeating a scanned section containing one number over another part of the image containing a different number.

  7. Re:Anti-counterfeiting by J'raxis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe you should read the article.

  8. Re:Really? by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Scanning an article without comprehension and your complaining about your misinterpretation. Really?

  9. Problem with JBIG2, not OCR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Before anyone spreads wrong information: The problem is with the JBIG2 image compression algorithm used when scanning to PDF format. OCR has nothing to do with this. Also, TIFF format images are not affected as they don't use JBIG2.

    1. Re:Problem with JBIG2, not OCR by barlevg · · Score: 2

      He's not making an assumption--it says so right in the article.

  10. Re:Really? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Informative

    Scanning 7pt text at 200dpi with consumer level scanner technology and you're complaining about scan errors. Really?

    These 'errors' are substantially worse than ordinary scanner suckitude or lossy-compression legovision: JBIG2's pixel-block matching creates the potential for a block containing one character to be mis-identified and replaced with a block containing a different character.

    The replaced character will be exactly as legible as text elsewhere on the page, just entirely incorrect.

    If it were just the scan quality being lousy, or somebody turning, say, JPEG compression up to the point of pain, mangled characters would be obviously mangled. Not as good as being legible; but the issue is obvious. In this case, the errors will look as good as the rest of the document.

  11. see the Xerox user manual by mejustme · · Score: 5, Informative

    Quote: "Normal/Small produces small files by using advanced compression techniques. Image quality is acceptable but some quality degradation and character substitution errors may occur with some originals"

    Source: http://www.cs.unc.edu/cms/help/help-articles/files/xerox-copier-user-guide.pdf

    1. Re:see the Xerox user manual by mejustme · · Score: 3

      That is why keyboards have CTRL+F. (Top of page 107.)

    2. Re:see the Xerox user manual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Interesting, since as far as I remember from reading about this issue yesterday, Xerox had not yet responded to this issue. Strange, since it's in the documentation.

      But then, reading the manual in context, the quote appears on pages 107, 129, and 179, which is the chapters "Fax", "Workflow Scanning", and "Save and Reprint Jobs" respectively.

      It's not in the chapter "Copying" (pages 39..63), so there is no excuse that this issue occurs in simple copy mode.

    3. Re:see the Xerox user manual by Atzanteol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's "Normal" quality? That could be *very* misleading. If you have an option that has negative side-effects such as this then the option should be titled something to indicate the risk - "Super-compressed", "dangerously small" or the like.

      Though I'm surprised Xerox would even allow such a compression if such an obvious issue occurs. People would expect image quality to suffer - but full character substitution?

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    4. Re:see the Xerox user manual by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 4, Informative

      Very interesting find, although that warning only appears in the "Fax" section of the manual, and not in the "Copy" or "Workflow Scanning" sections.

      AND I'd be wrong, it's in all three sections. Ctrl-F'ing in Ocular only finds "character substitution" when the words are side-by-side, not split by a line break as they appear in the copying and scanning sections.

      That's way worse. Xerox knows about this, and just puts in a little note, rather than a big old: "WARNING: Normal/Small mode may produce undetectable text errors."

      And that type of warning should be defined in the beginning of the manual as "operations that may cause data transcription errors resulting in financial harm, damage to property, injury or death".

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    5. Re:see the Xerox user manual by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      The problem is that most people only read the manual when they discover something is wrong and there is no immediately obvious problem with the results of these scans. The problem only gets noticed much later when someone tries to work with the scanned information and discovers that it is readable but doesn't make sense.

      I also notice that the manual says that the other options give larger files with better image quality but does not state clearly whether compression algorithms that can cause character substitution are disabled in those modes or whether substitution is just less likely due to higher quality settings.

      When a development of a technology introduces new failure modes great care needs to be taken to inform users of those modes. Just burying it deep in a manual that people only read when things go wrong is not sufficient.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    6. Re:see the Xerox user manual by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Seems a little dangerous for that algorithm to be the default, doesn't it? Plus, burying the warning deep in the documentation.

      And an insufficient warning, at that.

      Something more like:

      Normal/Small Mode may not be suitable for documents where faithful reproduction of the original text, numbers or illustrations is critical. Examples would include legal documents (contracts, wills, articles of incorporation, etc.), medical documents (patient charts, orders, medication lists, etc.), financial documents (bills, invoices, statements, reconciliations, etc.), business documents (HR records, meeting minutes, memoranda, etc.), engineering documents (drawings, plans, change orders, instructions, bills of material, etc.) or any other document where incorrect data could result in financial loss, injury, death, property damage or destruction, legal liability, loss of reputation or other harm. These examples should not be considered an exhaustive list of documents not suited for scanning, copying or faxing using Normal/Small mode.

      would be more appropriate.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    7. Re:see the Xerox user manual by Chelloveck · · Score: 2

      "I think it'd be more appropriate if the box bore a great red label WARNING: LARK'S VOMIT!"

      I'm boggled. I can't believe any copier maker would use this algorithm for its default mode. Disk and bandwidth are cheap, the space savings can't possibly be worth the risk.

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
  12. Free Speech by BradyB · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hey, even photo copiers and faxes need freedom of speech.

    --

    Good is never enough, when you dream of being great!
  13. Re:Really? by xaxa · · Score: 4, Informative

    Scanning 7pt text at 200dpi with consumer level scanner technology and you're complaining about scan errors. Really?

    Consumer level? This isn't a home, or even home-office, machine. It's sold on the website under the office section.

  14. Known Xerox Issue..... in documentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you read the documentation from XEROX... it claims that on scanning it is a known problem that "Image quality is
    acceptable but some quality degradation and character substitution errors may occur with some
    originals." page 107 from http://www.cs.unc.edu/cms/help/help-articles/files/xerox-copier-user-guide.pdf

    also on page 129 we have the following: "Quality / File Size
    The Quality / File Size settings allow you to choose
    between scan image quality and file size. These settings
    allow you to deliver the highest quality or make smaller
    files. A small file size delivers slightly reduced image quality
    but is better when sharing the file over a network. A larger
    file size delivers improved image quality but requires more
    time when transmitting over the network. The options are:
      Normal/Small produces small files by using advanced
    compression techniques. Image quality is acceptable but some quality degradation and character
    substitution errors may occur with some originals."

    1. Re:Known Xerox Issue..... in documentation by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now the question becomes: what moron made this setting the default? Maybe a setting that can undetectably corrupt your data can be provided if appropriate warnings are given, but it sure as hell should never be the default. I would've thought that was obvious.

    2. Re:Known Xerox Issue..... in documentation by Nimey · · Score: 2

      So you're telling us this is a problem caused by a user not RTFMing and Slashdot sensationalized it?

      Surely you're joking. :P

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    3. Re:Known Xerox Issue..... in documentation by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Substitution errors shouldn't happen in corporate level scanning hardware, even if you bury a warning about it 107 pages into the 350 page manual. You can't have something that fundamentally makes your product not fit for purpose and claim that it's ok just because it's a known issue.

    4. Re:Known Xerox Issue..... in documentation by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So you're telling us this is a problem caused by a user not RTFMing and Slashdot sensationalized it?

      Surely you're joking. :P

      I admit that I, for one, don't usually RTFM before using the copier. Certainly not when I'm using the copier in "Normal" mode.

      And don't call me "Shirley".

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
  15. Re:Anti-counterfeiting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Huh?

    I'm sorry. I understand those 6 words individually. But when you put them in that order, they don't make any sense.

    Read? The? Article? You are not making any sense, man!

  16. Re:Anti-counterfeiting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I lack the proper attention span to read the article. Let's make a deal: I quickly skim through it, and soon return here with another completely wrong conclusion. Be back in 30 seconds.

  17. Re:Really? by Atzanteol · · Score: 2

    A $12,000 scanner/printer is "consumer level?"

    --
    "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

    - Charles Darwin
  18. ImageRunner by poofmeisterp · · Score: 3, Funny

    OMG, my Canon ImageRunners are doing the same thing! It must be a virus!

    I'd better write up a research document on this and request some grant money.

  19. Interesting by jones_supa · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The things you learn. I never knew before about JBIG2 and how scanners use it to repeat pieces of image. Seems to me that the JBIG2 parameters are tuned incorrectly in these scanners.

  20. Corporate decision by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Funny

    This was a decision by Xerox to get around ever being sued for copyright violations...

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  21. Re:Proofreading @ Xerox Development? by Fnord666 · · Score: 2

    How could Xerox make copiers for this length of time and not have a proofreading algorithm that works with a super-resolution scan & no interpolation to "machine check" the final commercial copier as a way of quickly finding errors?

    Internatlly(sic), Xerox engineering had to know they were "correcting" pixels, rather than just "copying" them, so how did they verify their software?

    They do know about it.

    --
    'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  22. I can't understand by joh · · Score: 2

    how a compression that may lead to documents altered in such a way (numbers replaced by other numbers) can be considered fit for use in a photocopier. This can lead to very real, expensive and even dangerous problems down the line.

  23. Re:Really? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you read the article you would see it's not a simple case of scan error where a "13" appears blurry and looks like "B". Whole numbers are changed: 21.11--> 17.43. This is a major issue if it was on a construction drawing for example. A beam 4m too short would be a problem. Even if caught the engineer signing off might have to go through a whole audit process.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  24. Surprised nobody asked this... by ZorinLynx · · Score: 3, Informative

    Why do we need such aggressive compression algorithms, algorithms that can make the data WRONG, in this day and age when storage and memory is so incredibly cheap?

    This is not 1987 when every byte was precious and 1MB of RAM cost a hundred bucks. There is NO EXCUSE for this these days; just use PNG or JPG compression; at least those don't freaking CHANGE THE DATA!!

  25. Self-Correcting Bug by JeanCroix · · Score: 4, Funny

    I printed out the article in order to hang it on the wall above my office's Workcentre as a warning to coworkers. But apparently printing it fixed the problem, because the article headline became:

    "Xerox scanners/photocopiers Scan Documents Flawlessly and are the Best in the Industry"

  26. Re:Mission Impossible 4? by AJH16 · · Score: 2

    That's what he said before he scanned it on his WorkCentre.

    --
    AJ Henderson
  27. The codecs commonly used with a container by tepples · · Score: 2

    In theory, TIFF is a container format for any image codec that has a TIFF embedding defined. In practice, TIFF is a container format only for those codecs supported by common TIFF viewers. To use your analogy to AVI, when people see "AVI", they think of the codecs commonly used with an AVI container, such as MPEG-4 ASP video and MPEG-1 Layer III audio back in the DivX era. I could wrap the obscure codec of PlayStation 1 or Game Boy Advance FMV in an AVI or MKV container, but there'd be no use because next to nothing that supports such a container also supports those codecs. WAV is also a container, but over 9 times out of 10, the compression features aren't used.

  28. Re:Anti-counterfeiting by Anubis+IV · · Score: 5, Informative

    That's all I did, and I learned what they were talking about pretty quickly.

    It's actually pretty insane. They had architectural diagrams that had the square meters for the rooms copy/pasted by the scanner into other rooms. For instance, here were the room sizes for the three rooms on the diagram as reported on the original diagram and various scans of it (I've bolded incorrect values):
    Original Diagram: 14.13m^2, 21.11m^2, 17.42m^2
    Xerox WorkCentre 7335 scan: 14.13m^2, 14.13m^2, 14.13m^2
    Xerox WorkCenter 7556 scan 1: 14.13m^2, 14.13m^2, 14.13m^2
    Xerox WorkCenter 7556 scan 2: 17.42m^2, 21.11m^2, 17.42m^2
    Xerox WorkCenter 7556 scan 3: 14.13m^2, 14.13m^2, 17.42m^2

    They have images of this happening. It's just outright substituting blocks of text from one part of a scanned image into an entirely separate part. Not just mangling pixels or uniformly displacing each by a few mm, but outright moving them into a different part of the image that was similar, yet slightly different. Maybe it's some sort of optimization or compression gone wrong? I.e. They detected a block that appeared to be the same as a previous one, so assumed they were the same and only kept one copy of that data?

    It's bizarre.

  29. Re:The Pentium Bug strikes again by stjobe · · Score: 2

    Ah, my favourite Star Trek / Computer nerd pastiche:

    "I am Pentium of Borg. Division is futile, you will be approximated".

    Caused me endless mirth in the early nineties - and still does, although these day it's nostalgic more than funny.

    --
    "Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
  30. This is HUGE! by tekrat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is how people get shot, because the police are given the wrong address to raid a house. This is how people get foreclosed on because a few account numbers are switched.

    Holy crap. That makes me never want to go near a copier again.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  31. Re:Anti-counterfeiting by Anubis+IV · · Score: 5, Funny

    You came up with the exact same conclusion as the author of the article you just read:

    Hey now, there's no need to accuse me of reading the article just because I looked at the pictures.

  32. Probably an image quality enhancement fix. by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I expect the bug is because it is trying clean up the scanned image. Trying to account for what it thinks is missing data.
    14.13m^2, 21.11m^2, 17.42m^2

    It see 3 blocks of information that probably roughly looks the same to the software accounting for errors. The amount of pixels used in each are fairly close. I expect the scanner sees the three blocks and thinks they are the same, and tries to find the block that seems the most sharp and reproduces them over the other spots.

    Scanning isn't pixel perfect you get a different match. So the image cleaning processor will probably try to clean the numbers differently.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  33. Xerox's Official Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://realbusinessatxerox.blogs.xerox.com/2013/08/06/always-listening-to-our-customers-clarification-on-scanning-issue/?CMP=SMO-EXT#.UgEhdRgk98F

    By Francis Tse, principal engineer, Xerox

    Recently there have been articles about Xerox devices randomly altering numbers in scanned documents. We take this issue very seriously.

    The problem stems from a combination of compression level and resolution setting. The devices mentioned are shipped from the factory with a compression level and resolution that produces scanned files which are optimized for viewing or printing while maintaining a reasonable file size. We do not normally see a character substitution issue with the factory default settings however, the defect may be seen at lower quality and resolution settings.

    The Xerox design utilizes the recognized industry standard JBIG2 compressor which creates extremely small file sizes with good image quality, but with inherent tradeoffs under low resolution and quality settings.

    For data integrity purposes, we recommend the use of the factory defaults with a quality level set to “higher.” In cases where lower quality/higher compression is desired for smaller file sizes, we provide the following message to our customers next to the quality settings within the device web user interface: “The normal quality option produces small file sizes by using advanced compression techniques. Image quality is generally acceptable, however, text quality degradation and character substitution errors may occur with some originals.”

    Xerox is totally committed to customer satisfaction and with this feedback we will look for ways to help our customers better manage their scanning application needs.

    For more information, contact Xerox Support at http://www.xerox.com/perl-bin/world_contact.pl#0.

  34. Re:I call BS by itsdapead · · Score: 2

    I work for Xerox. I specifically support these machines in a tier 3 capacity. I have not seen or heard a single case of this. My group handles calls from all of North America, and some South.

    Perhaps they're all trying to call the support number on the user guide that they just printed out... :-)

    --
    In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
  35. Re:Anti-counterfeiting by nytes · · Score: 2

    I have some test sheets that should do the job for you.

    I'll scan them and send you the images.

    --
    -- I have monkeys in my pants.
  36. Re:I call BS by Guy+Harris · · Score: 3, Informative

    I work for Xerox. I specifically support these machines in a tier 3 capacity. I have not seen or heard a single case of this.

    So does Francis Tse, and he's apparently heard of it.

    My group handles calls from all of North America, and some South.

    You might want to talk to somebody who handles calls from Western Europe - Germany, in particular.

  37. Re:Anti-counterfeiting by aix+tom · · Score: 2

    Well, that's the thing with the "all rolled up into one" solutions. Those scanners scan/mail/archive/etc... all by themselves, without further user intervention and without the need for an additional computer attached.

    The big foul-up is that hey use JBIG, not a more sensible compression algorithm like LZW or JPEG where "to small to read" stuff really gets "too small to read" in the scan, too, not "improved" to something else. The foulup would have been exactly the same if someone later in the tool chain had used JBIG.

    They probably hat a test run by a marketing drone that found that JBIG "looks so much clearer" ;-P

  38. Hello? QA? Hello!!! by nanospook · · Score: 2

    Something like this shouldn't have passed QA.. did we outsource or what?

    --
    Have you fscked your local propeller head today?