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Florida Town Stores License Plate Camera Images For Ten Years
An anonymous reader writes "Yet another privacy concern story, this time from Florida. The Longboat Key police have their new license plate camera up and running, but according to the police chief, this one stores all images as 'evidence' for up to ten years. When questioned about the possibility for abuses of this camera's historical record, the chief said, 'There are regulations, policies and laws in place that prohibit that kind of abuse. And if abuse is discovered, it's punished.' What could possibly go wrong?"
The same thing that always goes wrong, somebody will abuse it because they can.
fuck.... this is getting to be way over kill....
"'There are regulations, policies and laws in place that prohibit that kind of abuse. And if abuse is discovered, it's punished."
It looks like you're new here. Welcome to Earth. Tell me more about your planet; what color is the sky there?
Here are a few starting points to learn a bit more about how The Blue Wall works when the department regulates its own behavior:
Wikipedia: Blue Code of Silence
Wikipedia: Frank Serpico
Wikipedia: Rampart Scandal
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Isn't this just assuming everyone is guilty until proven innocent?
Evidence that we live in a police-surveilence state. Evidence of a flagrant disregard for the people they purport to "protect". Evidence of thugs and bullies abusing their power.
...a picture is forever. Even if laws were enacted to delete them, backups of backups will preserve them for posterity.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
That's appears to be longer than most Criminal Statute of Limitations in Florida, except for the most serious crimes.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I could photograph your license plate and keep it forever and nothing you can do about it. I can post it on the internet and nothing you can do about it.
Yes you can private citizen, though It would be very difficult for you to photograph everyone's license plate at various locations all around the city 24/7 and store them forever. And you certainly can't link that person's phone records, bank records, browsing habits, etc., etc. and store those forever. And here's the rub: even if you could do all of that you yourself couldn't do a fucking thing about it because you don't have the law on your side giving you the power to break down people's doors in the middle of the night with a paramilitary unit of trained, lethally armed thugs who *know* you're a criminal.
Look where all this talking got us, baby.
I grew up about a 15 minute drive away from Longboat key. Incidentally, I ran a camera at some of their city council meetings back when I did live video work, and they were about the most boring things I've ever sat through in my life. I literally watched them debate what kind of sand they should use to replenish their beaches for two hours on one occasion. On another I saw an argument go on for the better part of three hours, in which a new guest dock was being built at a gated community and the resident whose yard it was adjacent to was very much concerned that boats parked at the dock would obscure his view of the gulf. In a truly political compromise, they finally agreed that the dock would be built, but boaters should only use one side of it.
The reason I remember these anecdotes is that they were by far the most exciting things I saw happen at any point in their city council meetings. Longboat key is a quiet community of mostly elderly, very wealthy retirees. Not only is it populated almost entirely by senior citizens, but the island is well enough isolated that there's essentially zero risk of almost anyone ever deliberately going there: the only reason I've ever been to it was for the aforementioned jobs and to drive through it to get to Sarasota. Basically, to anyone who's ever been near Longboat Key, the idea that they need any automated license plate scanning system, let alone one that retains records for a decade, is laughably absurd.
now, do that for every car that passes by a point.
and after that, install those capture devices everywhere.
do you really think this is what the founding fathers had in mind when they created this so-called free country?
the fact that computers and digital tech can take a small act and multiply it many times, THAT changes things. its different and you bloody well know it.
would you like it if we arranged to surveil every aspect of YOUR life and put it up on public show? yeah, we thought not.
and finally, you have to ask yourself a serious question: is this the kind of world you would prefer to live in? because something is technically (now) possible, does that mean its a direction we should go in without even a 2nd thought?
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
We have laws in place to make sure people don't do wrong things.... Why do we need police what could go wrong !
As someone who has visited Longboat Key, let me just say it's one of the nicest communities in Florida. Nestled into the coast just off Sarasota, LBK is a kind of retirement community of older folks. There are a lot of criminal types that prey on the island from Sarasota, because of the wealth and opulence, and relative seclusion the island provides. There are some gated communities but primarily there are coastal homes and hotels along the key, which make it a perfect place for a would-be criminal to strike.
I'm not condoning license plate records but at the same time, known criminals that head for the island who do not take residence there are an obvious benefit for that type of surveillance.
But that said, if someone was applying for a job there who happened to have served their time and changed their ways from a criminal past -- this would cause police harassment for no reason and push a criminal back towards a life of crime, perhaps.
LBK is a kind of gated community in and of itself, however it is a free country and any citizen should be allowed to travel anywhere and no sheriff should have the power to tell someone to get out of town, because that's un-American.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Over a period of 10 years driving around, I think it's possible to chock up enough coincidental adjacency to criminal activity that we could selectively pick a non-random set of photos of your vehicle license plate, and establish a circumstantial case against you being involved in criminal activity.
Get a sufficient amount of data on anyone, and you can paint them as a criminal by being selective about the data you choose to use in presenting your case.
For someone whose job is based on the premise that people will not always obey the law, that police chief seems a bit too trusting that laws will prevent abuse.
Yes you can private citizen, though It would be very difficult for you to photograph everyone's license plate at various locations all around the city 24/7 and store them forever. And you certainly can't link that person's phone records, bank records, browsing habits, etc.
I agree with the sentiment, but sadly it is out of date. License plates need to be completely rethought in lieu of the new capabilities available to both big brother (government) and little brother (citizenry).
First it was only repo-men: License plate data not just for cops: Private companies are tracking your car
But the allure of monetizing those databases was too much, so the lobbying began: MVTRAC Spearheads Victory Over California SB 1330
And now the same companies that do track your phone calls, your bank records and your browsing habits are also selling license-plate tracking data:
Data Brokers Are Now Selling Your Car's Location For $10 Online
And just for shits and giggles I'm going to throw this one in, brought to you by those data brokers: Your employer may share your salary, and Equifax might sell that data
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
How quaint
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
If I live in a town where police are allowed to murder anyone who breaks the law on the spot if they know the people broke the law and I haven't done anything wrong, that affects my life how?
In which fairy tail land do you live where the government is entirely composed of perfect beings who never make mistakes and never abuse their powers? You certainly don't live on Earth, because history is absolutely filled with examples of government corruption.
Storing the data is pretty easy with cloud storage.
Crowdsourcing the license plate scanning would require a little creativity, but it could be done.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
There are regulations, policies and laws in place that prohibit that kind of abuse.
If regulations, policies and laws were actually enough to stop people, we wouldn't need to have either the camera's, the keeping of evidence or even the police.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
fsck, event 3 minutes is too long: it's long enough for some automated system to issue a speeding ticket and the abuse is done (letting aside the possiblity of having NSA prisming it forever... given the times we live in, one cannot rule this out).
I move to delete them as soon as the are captured... heck, why waste money to install these cameras in the first place? Aren't any other better means to ensure traffic safety?
(grin... I know, stupid... but less stupid than the code I am to write now)
Damn, I am going to feed the AC troll. But I cannot resist... /. insisting on the pictures being deleted after 3 minutes, so we deleted them and now it is up to him to provide evidence to prove his innocence".
If the pictures are deleted as soon as a citation is issued, there is no evidence to support or assist in refuting the citation. Or would you like to live in a world where the Police can say "the photographic evidence existed to charge this person with murder, treason, speeding, bestiality and voting Democrat, but he posted as a dipshit AC on
Remember, photographic evidence can be a tool to prove both guilt and innocence.
Additionally, destroying evidence that was used as the basis for a citation is itself a criminal offence.
If a picture is taken by one of a network of cameras, and analysis confirms that it does not provide evidence of a specific and currently investigated crime crime, then it should be deleted immediately (no need to wait for 3 minutes, because that is enough time for the picture to be "archived for disaster recovery purposes". But if the picture shows evidence of a potential crime, then it should be kept at least until that crime has been investigated and charges brought/dismissed....
However, my own problem with my argument is ironically the "if the picture shows evidence of a potential crime" part - does anyone seriously want to claim that they know all the laws of whatever country they live in, and how those laws are interpreted by the police and judicial system? Given that the laws of any non-autocratic state become more complex over time (I cannot provide a citation for that, but I do recall reading it in an ex-girlfriend's Poli Sci course book while helping her study for an exam, but it is an echo of some commentaries by Voltaire and even Macchiavelli), it becomes inevitable that over time laws are less about the meaning and intention of the original legislators and more about interpretation by judicial authority, especially when those laws are seeming written to be very obtuse, unclear and overly broad. So the "evidence of a potential crime" angle is itself open to abuse.
The bottom line is that people in positions of authority cannot and should not be trusted to refrain from abusing their authority. The buffer against that abuse is an independent and transparent review process for all levels of the decision-making process, with the penalties for circumventing the review process being punitive and rigorously applied. Does anyone feel comfortable that this review process is working?
The reason for all of this isn't for 'safety' or even revenue, but so those in power can have evidence to screw over who they don't like. Do you think the court is going to care if you are among the majority breaking some minor law? The argument that if the majority ignores a law does not seem to matter, which is pitiful, if one considers the only authority any government has is by the consent of the governed.
Take the highway speed limit in your area, which is almost certainly well below the average speed. They won't get you, usually, unless you exceed the average significantly. But it gives the police the power to pull over almost any vehicle going above the artificially low speed limit. And those that do follow the law will be 'suspicious' by 'failing to follow the prevailing speed'.
Using roadside cameras, they can target anyone. They can use these cameras to tell the average speed of the targeted vehicle, and they could write a ticket for that vehicle each day, remotely and possibly even automatically targeted. It's only a matter of time before automated toll devices (EZ-Pass) are used in this way, already in some areas using these devices gets a discount, so you pay extra either way.
Whether this town is doing this for 'safety', revenue, or some more nefarious reason, I can't tell from the story. The only thing we can do is stay the hell away and not spend our money there. I'm going to put my tinfoil hat back on now.
... and keep it forever and nothing you can do about it. I can post it on the internet and nothing you can do about it.
There's a difference in scale between you photographing every license plate that goes past your house, and a large organization photographing every license plate, on every road, in the entire state.
That's what the Germans decided. You could drive down a street in Germany and whatever you can see through your car windows is public.
You could probably take a video without legal challenges.
But when Google drove down every street in Germany and captured everything visible in public with 360-degree cameras, the German courts decided that it violated their privacy laws.
Next time a local politician is suspected of philandering, simply FOIA the records and show how he and his girlfriend met at some hotel. Such rules will get changed in a hurry.
If the pictures are deleted as soon as a citation is issued, there is no evidence to support or assist in refuting the citation. Or would you like to live in a world where the Police can say "the photographic evidence existed to charge this person with murder, treason, speeding, bestiality and voting Democrat, but he posted as a dipshit AC on /. insisting on the pictures being deleted after 3 minutes, so we deleted them and now it is up to him to provide evidence to prove his innocence".
It should be mandatory that if a citation were issued that the evidence were kept and made available to the defence. Keeping this 0.001% of the pictures until the court process is complete is very different from keeping 100% of the pictures for 10 years.
Well I suppose they can always add another HD and extend the storage period.
America; let me introduce you to European data protection laws; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
EU legislation is far from perfect, but it still staggers me what companies are allowed to do in the States.
Personally, I don't think it would be difficult at all.
You just set yourself up at some big traffic axis in and out the city, and after a week I'm sure you'll have 90% of all cars and their movement.
Besides, who needs to track cars when you can just track a cellphone signal.
Or would you like to live in a world where the Police can say "the photographic evidence existed to charge this person with murder, treason, speeding, bestiality and voting Democrat, but he posted as a dipshit AC on /. insisting on the pictures being deleted after 3 minutes, so we deleted them and now it is up to him to provide evidence to prove his innocence".
I would love to live in that world since that's not how American courts work. And letting some actual murderers, traitors, speeders, perverts, and Democrats go free is an okay price for everyone's freedom.
better yet, someone should post those images to the Internet.
But I'm sure Murphy's law will prevent abuse.
They're using their grammar skills there.
It is interesting how he answered the question, very carefully inserting a strategic, "if discovered" in the sentence. Looks like he is already abusing the system, or aware of people abusing it or could imagine people abusing it.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Most people probably do not know that the Keys are islands with one road in and one road out. Many of the keys have no other road on their island at all. So it is US1 or swim for it. That makes it super easy to get every single vehicle on cams and makes it known exactly when the vehicle enters and leaves the key. This can help to catch criminals but it can also help keep false convictions from taking place. Florida also has other places with high quality surveillance and the bad guys know it. We have had incidents where attacks by boats have been staged on homes of the wealthy.
KGB didn't store images for so long.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
Judge Dredd - you are welcome.
Just because there is a law today doesn't mean that there is one tomorrow - or maybe the Patriot Act can override any law anyway already.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
But EVERYONE could photograph EVERYONE's license plate, and probably even link them up with various social networks. If I were looking to organize a mass protest for this, getting a large enough portion of the population to put road-facing cameras on their property and post the location of the mayor and city council at all times in real time would be a pretty good "It's not so much fun when it's happening to YOU" example.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Oh noes! The government is tracking what the license plate number is on my car! Forget the fact that it's a license number they issued to me in the first place, when I told them exactly what kind of car I drive....
This is beyond ridiculous.
There is absolutely no crime on the island (as in zero). It's a very, very, very wealthy strip of island in Sarasota, FL and there's no reason for this.
The police department there has more money than they know what to do with. I guess it shows.
The enemy of my enemy is quite possibly also my enemy. I've made a lot of enemies.
I am constantly surprised the technically sophisticated slashdot commenters seem to overwhelmingly respond from a perspective of paranoia. Besides the Florida license plate story, it comes up with all big data abuse scenarios. Why can't the technical community come up with some ideas on making the data available for legitimate societal good (missing kids, alibis for innocent people, apprehending real terrorists) and find controls that keep creepy police state abuse at bay. Police could be breaking down doors and taking citizens away on flimsy excuses, but for the most part this is not happening. We can create checks and balances on the access to big data. We just have to recognize that it is here to stay and we can't legislate it away.
NH, 2006, because that's we roll. Floridians should be ashamed of their Peeping Tom government.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
With modern license plates that many states are rolling out that are designed to be high contras in the IR band and easy to OCR, I would imagine that a RPi with camera and low cost GPS receiver could handle the processing and collection. Since all you would need to store would be the time stamp, location data, plate state, and plate number which would be a trivial amount of text data so a 32GB SD card would be able to hold a lot of data. I mean really why bother storing a large detailed photo when what you are after is location and time of a specific vehicle. Now since we are already processing an image we could also OCR out the make and model of vehicle as well as record the color for a more detailed description. Having multiple people doing this and contributing and uploading each day in a similar fashion to Open Street Map and it becomes trivial.
Time to offend someone
Obviously they'd be just fine with a process that logs all queries to the database, including who queried it and what they queried, and keeps that log for at least 10 years, and having regular audits of the log files? Because they're not doing anything wrong, so they totally shouldn't mind a bit, right?
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks