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Obama Seeks New System For Rating Colleges

PolygamousRanchKid writes "Targeting the soaring cost of higher education, President Barack Obama on Thursday unveiled a broad new government rating system for colleges that would judge schools on their affordability and perhaps be used to allocate federal financial aid. But the proposed overhaul faced immediate skepticism from college leaders who worry the rankings could cost their institutions millions of dollars, as well as from congressional Republicans wary of deepening the government's role in higher education. The new rating system does not require congressional approval, and the White House is aiming to have it set up before the 2015 school year. But Obama does need support from Congress in order to use the ratings as a basis for parceling out federal financial aid. In addition to tuition, schools will also be rated on average student loan debt, graduation rates and the average earnings of graduates. Under Obama's proposal, students attending highly rated schools could receive larger grants and more affordable loans."

302 comments

  1. Forget ratings, measure ROI. by robbo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What is the median salary, divided by total cost of education, one year and five years after graduation? That is really the main thing a prospective student needs to know. Everything else is window dressing.

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    1. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The value of an education does not reside solely in earnings potential.

    2. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      They are measuring how much students make after they graduate, so that will likely be a large factor. In the past they've cut for-profit school loans because the students would not be making enough to pay off those loans after graduating.

    3. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you count dropouts?

      Do you count dropouts who end up making a lot of money?

      Do you value their options pre-IPO?

    4. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by robbo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are correct but at some point you must wonder whether it's worth it to go into debt, and by how much, to free your mind via Art History.

      --
      So long, and thanks for all the Phish
    5. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 2

      Re: the value of an education does not reside solely in earnings potential

      Maybe for the independently wealthy, that's true. For most people, we borrow money to go to that fancy university and then we've got to pay it back plus interest. Spending years in hock to attend a school that has limited potential to aid me in getting a job to pay off that nut is not particularly useful regardless of how much I might enjoy that semester studying the works of Euripides.

    6. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by icebike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The cost of college will expand to consume the available student loans, grants and financial aid. This has been true since the invention of student loans.

      I suspect your ROI calculation would serve only to raise the price of an economical college quickly up to the price of the most expensive schools, because the ROI would prove them to be a much better deal, and as they draw all the students they can handle the price will rise.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    7. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by NoKaOi · · Score: 2

      The value of an education does not reside solely in earnings potential.

      It does if you're the student loan lender.

    8. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Fluffeh · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What I simply don't understand is why US universities are so expensive. It's gotten to the point where it seems that any sort of education can only be gotten my pretty much taking on so much debt that you will be lucky to pay it back - which then forces the government to start putting in copious amounts of scholarships/funding to keep students there.

      Degree Costs in Australia

      Over here, a degree (not counting the really expensive ones like medicine) costs $15-30k and a masters $20-37k.

      The average cost (excluding the notoriously expensive universities) in the US is $28k per year.

      Seriously, why?

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    9. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Darkness404 · · Score: 2

      Except that's really the only reason to go to college anymore, for a piece of paper that says you graduated.

      All the knowledge you'd gain from college can be found for free online. And there are a hell of a lot better and more rewarding experiences you can have with 4(+) years of time and $60K.

      The only reason to go to college and spend their absurd fees is so that you can get a higher paying job (or more rewarding) out of college that is worth more than the $60K and 4+ years you spent at college.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    10. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Which is why I think that student loans are kind of crazy. No bank (well, not many) would lend you money to start a business without first reviewing your business plan. Make sure they have a reasonable chance of getting their money back, and adjust interest rates and the amount borrowed as necessary. Same goes for buying a house. The bank wants to know which property you're (they're?) buying before they give you the money for the house. Banks should really be doing some investigation into what degree you're taking, what school you're going to, what kind of student you were previously to asses your likelihood of being able to repay the loans. They shouldn't be handing out $100,000 in student loans for somebody to get some degree in a field which will give them no job prospects. That's just irresponsible. Also those students who are doing well at good schools with good future job prospects should be able to get better interest rates, and should be able to make the banks compete to see who can give them better terms for their loans.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    11. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      professor salaries, technology ( most of it not used to its potential), land scaping / upscale renovations, althletics ( very few schools make money on any of them), activities, research.

      Many young kids are going to community colleges at a much cheaper rate for the first two years, before transfering into a four year school. The cost at those schools is typically around $2000 a year ( not including room and board which aren't offered by the school).

    12. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's the free market, son. That's what makes America great.

      Seriously, it's the insane near religious stance that everything has to be a) profit making b) run like a widget company and c) expand financially forever. Coupled with fair degree of rent seeking, a terrible method of allocating money to people who cannot afford it on their own (Pell grants, the student loan system), massive expansion of physical plants for sports and near complete collapse of the vocational / technical college.

      The Perfect Storm, if you will.

      Same problem in medicine to some degree. Add a for profit stance to something that should not be run for a profit, stir in a generous heaping of incompetent government bungling, sprinkle with freebies to insulate the end user from economic consequences of their decision and bake slowly in a hellish furnace composed of hot air from insurance companies and Wall Street (the old profit thing) and you have a sticky, toxic mess that's impossible to clean up.

      I think I'll go cook dinner now.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    13. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by thed8 · · Score: 1

      We are missing the point arguing about how the government should rate colleges, the point is WHY should they be doing this? Imho it is more government cost for no gain or a lead in to controlling which colleges get money and therefore stay in business. I don't want more government, I've got too much already.

    14. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by k_187 · · Score: 2

      They shouldn't but student loans are with you forever. The hurdle to get them discharged in bankruptcy is incredibly high and most people will never reach it. So you will pay them back. It might take forever, but it will get paid back.

      --
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      12 was 12
      1111 Race
      12112
    15. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      The value of an education does not reside solely in earnings potential.

      No, but given that the cost of it is vastly outpacing inflation and paying for it may very well eclipse the sub-prime mortgage crisis in terms of sheer economic damage, earnings potential by necessity tops the list of considerations. As well, the overwhelming majority of college applicants and programs are geared towards getting you into a new job... and one hopes, one that can at least pay the interest on all those loans you took out to land it. Worse, employers want more and more college degrees for everything from janitorial work to being the President of the Universe.

      At the rate things are going, the only jobs that don't require a college education will be crime, and (my personal favorite) evil overlord.

      --
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    16. Re: Forget ratings, measure ROI. by alen · · Score: 2

      The schools are pretty cheap if you go to your state school and live with mom and dad

      If you go to another state's school the tuition is twice the in state and you have to pay lots of living expenses that people borrow

      Why do kids do this? They are dumb. They want to get away from parents. They want to go to a party school and one with a good sports program.

      There are some awesome and expensive schools like Stanford , Harvard and others where it's worth it paying all that money. Just not if you go to an average state school as an out of state student

    17. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already tried that. And it showed they had better cutting education and funding defense more in order to invade other countries for maximum ROI.

      captcha: robbery (indeed)

    18. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There was an article about this a few years back. Basically, the costs of college are so high that families are disassociated from the costs of repaying them if they're taking out government-subsidized loans. So, there's no difference between a $5K/semester school or a $7.5K/semester school when you have to borrow and won't pay off for 4 years anyway. People think, "damn this is expensive" which includes a wide range of prices. Schools have figured this out and know that whatever they charge for tuition they'll get from the government to some extent. It's not like profit-motivated banks are going to stop giving out loans. It's in the interest of the government to educate the workforce in a technical age. Add to that a crappy market where even secretary positions ask for college educations. Schools know how valuable their diplomas are, so they dangle them over our heads on a platinum barb.

      --
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    19. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by idontusenumbers · · Score: 1

      The OP was speaking of college specifically, not education categorically. If the matter is personal pride or knowledge, it would be a lot cheaper to do it outside of college using books from the library or purchased from a book store. What value does a college bring? The diploma (for earning potential) is one, maybe a 'learning environment' (which would be pretty easy to argue against, depending on the college), or a sense of discipline... I feel the diploma/earnings-potential is really the only one without a good counter argument.

    20. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I went to college for the for years of drinking and pussy. I'd gladly do it again.

    21. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why does it cost money? If you poll the people paying these schools, they are doing so as an investment. If we just want to discuss philosophies we can do that anywhere. If we just want information, we can get it from books or the internet. Universities are where we go to get experience needed to dive into a career path that would otherwise be inaccessible.

    22. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What I simply don't understand is why US universities are so expensive.

      They are fiercely competitive, so they spend gobs of money trying to outdo one another. And they get away with it because there are government-backed loans for domestic students and they draw from rich foreign student populations. When I visit my alma mater, or my wife's, the tuition has doubled over 20 years and so has the campus - there are literally twice as many buildings for roughly the same student population. I don't think the instruction has improved much - particularly at my wife's institution which has always been very prestigious - but the perks are amazing... the cafeteria looks like a fancy mall food court now. The gym is like a YMCA from heaven. There are cafés in the library. Ubiquitous WiFi. The newer dorms are not the bare painted cinderblock walls that we had. Landscaping and student areas are all immaculate. And of course, every bullet point in the US News and World Report rankings checklist has been addressed.

      --
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    23. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by tipo159 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The cost of college will expand to consume the available student loans, grants and financial aid. This has been true since the invention of student loans.

      The cost of college (at a state colleges) here has expanded because "we will cut your taxes" politicians kept getting elected, so the state cut their support of the colleges (20-odd% here from 2006-20011), so the colleges are now getting the money from the students.

    24. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's the free market, son. That's what makes America great.

      You should take a world history class son and you would realize your bit of sarcasism is absolute truth. Competition and free markets are what have elevated human standard of living to the point it is today.

    25. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Livius · · Score: 1

      Earnings potential is a crude and incomplete measure.

      But until a better measure is found it makes sense to use it.

    26. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      "It might take forever, but it will get paid back."

      No. If you don't ever have any money, they will not get paid back.

    27. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by bobbied · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why? I'll tell you why. Because they CAN.

      It used to be that they simply could not charge that much, because the average person simply could not afford to pay. Folks got though college on the "pay as you go" plan or arranged for *personal* loans to pay for it. Colleges customers didn't have the money so they could not charge it. So what changed?

      The same thing happened for Cars... It used to be that you could by a Model-T for pretty cheap money but you paid all up front. Manufacturers found out that folks would spend LOADS more money if they paid over time on credit. Low monthly payments could fleece the customer over long times and make you a lot more in the long run. The cost of cars went up accordingly and we all (mostly) now pay over time for them. College is no different. We stupidly agree to pay for College over time and the Fed will back the loans so I can borrow all kinds of money with no collateral except on my future earnings. The College is happy to take whatever I can borrow and have raised their prices accordingly. It's business, and all about taking all the money you can borrow they can.

      The problem is that getting out of school with a huge amount of debt is a serious problem. In today's world as a college graduate you are lucky to get a job dropping fries at Wendy's for minimum wage. If you are looking at $20K in debt, minimum wage isn't going to allow you to make much more than interest payments while you live near poverty. Unfortunately this is common in today's economy.

      So in the end, it's the Federal program to make borrowing money for college as easy as possible that has made college so expensive. Well that and the desire to get as much money as they can get their students to borrow.

      --
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    28. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by robbo · · Score: 1
      --
      So long, and thanks for all the Phish
    29. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by poity · · Score: 1

      The practical value does.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    30. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I blame this mostly on the fact that the least intelligent college graduates end up working in HR. So the dumbest people in any organization are hiring everyone else. Because they have absolutely no ability to judge the relative value of various attributes, it has become a credentialing race to get any kind of job.

    31. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by icebike · · Score: 1

      So it never went up prior to that?

      I call bullshit. I've never known a time when college costs remained the same for more than two years in a row. Not 40 years ago, not 20 years ago, not even 10.

      --
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    32. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's pretty simple: your public universities in Australia are supported by the public. Ours used to be. 30 years ago a public university received about 70% of its income through funding by the state government. Today it's closer to 25%. With every cut from the state budget, tuition increases to make up for the shortfall: 25 years ago tuition accounted for 25% of a public university's income while it now accounts for 47%.

    33. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The problem is that you're taking an average where an average is useless. There are too many variables. Many popular schools charge outrageous tuition not because it costs a lot of money, but rather to limit the number of applicants. You can recognize these schools because their sports teams are regularly mentioned on ESPN.

      Also, not all students pay the same amount. If you choose to attend a school in another state, you get to pay a much higher out-of-state tuition rate because you have to pay the portion of your tuition that would otherwise be paid by the state. This artificially inflates averages, particularly with highly popular schools.

      Exclude the largest schools, exclude private schools (that cost more because the state isn't footing part of the bill), and exclude out-of-state tuition, and the numbers become a lot more reasonable. My undergrad alma mater, for example, is one of the smaller schools in the University of Tennessee system. Assuming you are either from the same state or from a nearby county in Kentucky (and thus are eligible for in-state tuition), going there costs only $3,528 per semester, for a grand total of a little over 28 grand for a four-year degree, without any scholarships, grants, etc.

      Now admittedly, this is not the full picture. If you have to pay for room and board, depending on whether you live in a dorm, an on-campus apartment, or an off-campus apartment, you could pay anywhere from $1,000 to $3,000 a semester in housing. Depending on your major, you could pay anywhere from $250 to $1,000 a semester in books. And so on. The correct question to ask is how many people asked for the $1,400 per semester dorms and were forced to choose the $3,000 per month on-campus apartments (or vice-versa)—a piece of information that cannot really be reflected by any sort of average.

      And this is why averages are pretty much useless as a metric. Either way, you really have to question the wisdom of anyone paying anywhere close to $28,000 per year unless they're in a state where the cost of living is equally obscene, such as California or much of the eastern seaboard... and really, even then. I mean, that's 2.5 times the tuition for even some of the smaller UC schools.

      --

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    34. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, but it's the only thing that you can readily measure.

    35. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Professor salaries are terrible when you take into account the years of work it takes to get hired to a tenure track position, the ridiculously long hours they work, or that they could make much more in industry. Also research is paid for by federal grants and industrial partnerships, not tuition.

    36. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "What is the median salary, divided by total cost of education, one year and five years after graduation?"

      Grad school pays you barely enough to survive, med and law school cost money. I guess you don't want scientists, doctors, or lawyers (ok, 2 out of 3 is still pretty bad).

    37. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by blue9steel · · Score: 2

      It does if you're taking out debt to pay for it.

    38. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At my university in the southwestern U.S. the administrative costs and the advertising costs are driving tuition increases: the drive for newer, bigger, and better facilities to attract greater numbers of students to pay the high tuitions and be sheep to prey on (costs of dorms, food, gedunk, books etc all managed and tendered by the university) by the administration. The ratio of academics to much higher paid administrators is approaching 1:1.

      In the California UC system from a few years ago:

      http://californiareview.net/2011/08/24/graph-of-uc-administrative-growth/

    39. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why? I'll tell you why. Because they CAN.

      As someone whose parents both retired recently from teaching at four-year universities, I don't buy that explanation. At all. It's pure and utter bulls**t. The fact is, most universities are barely holding on financially, having to cut entire programs to keep from going under. Professors' salaries barely keep up with inflation most of the time, if that, and staff salaries don't fare much better. They rely more and more on adjunct instructors to cover classes because they can't afford to hire additional professors to cover the classes.

      Why are the costs going up? The main reason is that the cost of living is going up, while the states keep cutting the portion of the tuition that they pay so that they can spend that money on other programs. Most universities are getting smaller and smaller portions of their operating budget from the state, which inevitably means that they have to charge higher and higher tuition to make up the difference. There's no market magic involved here. There's no supply and demand at work. The demand is fixed; everyone wants an education. The supply is also fixed; every school can handle only a certain number of people. There's no profit margin—most schools are purely nonprofit and cannot make money except as temporary savings towards future costs—therefore, the cost is purely driven by the cost of operation. Any statements to the contrary, at least as far as public universities are concerned, are just plain wrong.

      This is not to say that there isn't bloat in the system; if you dig in, you can find lots of small places where costs could easily be cut, and together they add up to big inefficiencies. The problem is that those inefficiencies are hard to rout out without a concerted effort by someone who understands how to motivate people. For example, policies along the lines of "Any money your department doesn't spend by the end of the year is returned to the general budget and may result in a reduction in your budget next year" are a big part of why we have this bloat creep problem. Fixing those sorts of policies at a systemwide level and giving bonuses for finding ways to improve efficiency are what is needed. Unfortunately, that sort of thinking seems to be very contrary to the university culture, at least in the United States. And this is another reason why the cost of education (and government in general) keeps going up.

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    40. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      If you're independently wealthy or can convince your parents to pay, fine. If you want me to subsidize four years of partying leading to a degree in social work, you're on your own.

    41. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Largely because of government subsidized student loans. We have a thing called FAFSA (Free Application for Federal Student Aid). It sort of works as a one stop shop to apply for student aid from all sources. Sounds like a good idea rather than filling out similar applications for sate, local, university etc. It also works as a sort of automatic application for student loans.

      They practically throw the money at you. Both my sons were offered 10's of thousands of dollars a year that they didn't even need going to a moderately priced (relatively speaking) state university. Customers (students/parents) are insulated from the cost increases. 18 year olds are offered immediate gratification (money for college) and ignore the fact that they will be saddled with debt for decades. They see their only option being a job a McDonald's. Universities have no motivation to control costs, since the government is subsidizing the bill. Oh, also, student load debt is not discharged in bankruptcy, so they have you for life.

      It's basically a bubble driven by cheap money with government backing.

      All you really need to do to fix it is eliminate the bankruptcy exemption. This would suddenly limit who gets loans to people who can probably repay and tuition would drop precipitously.

    42. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure I see the difference. The site you linked to says "All costs are per year in Australian dollars." So that $15k-33k translates to $13.5k-30k in USD. So while the$28k you quote is at the high end, it's not outrageous.

      The US average in that topuniversities link is really $28.5k, and is actually just the private (i.e. expensive) universities -- it excludes the cheap publicly-funded schools. From what I've found, the average in-state tuition at a public college is only $9k, while the average for out-of-state students is $22k.

      It's not clear at all that an Australian school is really that much cheaper than an equivalent US school.

      dom

    43. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the quality of your Australian education is of lower quality? You linked to things that totally undermined your argument, especially the one about the US, and you gave the wrong range for Australian costs despite it being the single piece of relevant information you copied. In fact, when I read critically and do the math, the average US cost would be about $23k USD. (Taking the ~$2,500 average for a two year school for two years, then then $9,000 a year (or less) that almost half of all undergrads are paying for the remaining two. That would be $25k AUD, which fits very, very comfortably in the $15-33k (not 30, as you for some reason claimed, though it fits there too) range provided by your other link. Using only the information you, yourself have provided, your argument does not hold water.

      Trying to use the high end private schools to paint a very misleading picture of what US college students are actually paying is poor form. I hope that sort of intellectual dishonesty isn't acceptable at an Australian school, because it wouldn't be at an American one.

    44. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by BitZtream · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You sir, are an idiot, and your sig just re-enforces the fact.

      The knowledge you get bumbling around the Internet, while useful and good to have, is in no way compares to a formal education.

      Can you learn about things on the Internet? Sure. We'll you do as well as someone with a proper former education? No, because those people can ALSO use the Internet, and they actually know what they're looking for.

      --
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    45. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by philmarcracken · · Score: 1
      True, but it is quantitative which allows for a better measurement of how well the course material is delivered which rises the qualitative 'status' of the institution.

      And if its status or reputation is high then its overall perception value is higher regardless of how it tries to game the ratings.

    46. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by VortexCortex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's the free market, son. That's what makes America great.

      You should take a world history class son and you would realize your bit of sarcasism is absolute truth. Competition and free markets are what have elevated human standard of living to the point it is today.

      You demonstrate a massive amount of Confirmation Selection Bias. The deregulations and privatization of government programs, even including prisons and the army are met with religious fervor today, and even McCarthyism in the past. There is no black/white binary socialism vs capitalism. You can have both in a healthy economy, but you ignore massive amounts of evidence that this pure free market capitalism has been causing strife and economic ruination since the 70's.

      Just for one example, it was the deregulation of the housing and mortgage industry that allowed "free market" to destroy the economy in 2008. You should take a world history class, fool. Hell, just get up to date on current events! Competition and free markets are also the cause of much evil in the world today.

    47. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by manu0601 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Over here, a degree (not counting the really expensive ones like medicine) costs $15-30k and a masters $20-37k.

      Here is an even more extreme example: France

      One can therefore get a Master's degree (in 5 years) for about €750-3,500.

      And this includes health insurance. The bulk of the educational cost is socialized through taxes. Education (K12 to university) accounts for 1/3 of the state expenses, IIRC.

    48. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by saleenS281 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      BECAUSE the government is giving away money. The universities will keep increasing costs because they can, and because the government will continue to fund what may very well be a bad loan. Additionally private institutions are LINING UP to give out student loan debt. You can't ESCAPE it! Who wouldn't want to loan out money at 8% interest rate that the borrower can never default on?

    49. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by manu0601 · · Score: 2

      Competition and free markets are what have elevated human standard of living to the point it is today

      It helped, so did cooperation. Nation-states were built to allow cooperation to trump competition in some areas, and they played a huge role in human development.

    50. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My husband would respond to this, but he's currently unable to pick himself up from the floor while continuing to laugh hysterically after reading this incredibly naive, inaccurate statement.

      All I can say is that if you really believe this, you really need to pay better attention to the state of the world economy. Hint: GREED is the root cause. Free market systems are the root of it. Are you familiar with the "Fuck you, I got mine" syndrome?

    51. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Stonent1 · · Score: 2

      US University costs are high because they know you're going to get loans and grants to help pay for it. If it wasn't so easy to get assistance from the government they would have to compete. Before all the loans and grants you could easily afford a college degree on part time wages.

    52. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's in the interest of the government to educate the workforce in a technical age. Add to that a crappy market where even secretary positions ask for college educations.

      Then treat education like you do taxes: base tuition costs at the expense of household income.

    53. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by D'Sphitz · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What I simply don't understand is why US universities are so expensive.

      I suspect it's the same reason our healthcare is so expensive, yet sub-par.

    54. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean maintaining billions of dollars in fancy architecture has no more cost than simple construction? You mean debt service for those fancy buildings hasn't gone up dramatically? We certainly have a lot more folks who do nothing but shovel paper in a manner that contributes neither to research nor education. But, by god, we've got world scale gymnasiums and dorm rooms that are fancier than most midtown apartments. We've got a whole bunch of jobs that used to be done by students that are now done by full time employees, many of them salaried.

    55. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moderation failure. GP is obviously biased and spouting BS, and OP is probably equally biased but he's the one that gets the Troll stamp? /., you are really going downhill. When is this ridiculous moderation system going to be removed?

    56. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What is your actual workable alternative to GREED? Greed is fundamentally, self interest. Has anyone, anywhere been able to get people to consistently behave in a way which is contrary to their self interest? Humans are capable of considerable abstraction, and you may get temporary striving for the common good and sacrifice for family friends god and country, but even then they are working for the perceived self interest of their group.

      Don't foolishly equate this to anarchy. Cooperation if executed with enforced social norms (you know, civilization, laws) is self interest.

    57. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by penix1 · · Score: 2

      Add to that a crappy market where even secretary positions ask for college educations. Schools know how valuable their diplomas are, so they dangle them over our heads on a platinum barb.

      The value of a college degree is decreasing as your two statements show. As more jobs require them, justified or not, more people will get the degree just to satisfy that job requirement. As more people do get it, the higher the degree level requirement will become since having say an undergraduate degree will no longer distinguish individual achievement. The cost will go even higher as higher levels of degree become the norm.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    58. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, some of them could make more in industry -- e.g. the hard sciences, math, engineering, some soft sciences like psychology, communications. Others, not so much. There's no commercial marked for history professors. English literature, not so much. Everybody thinks they can write and Amazon is shoveling out shlock in the name of literature. Your chances of making it big as a writer are about the same as your chances of making it big as a NBA basketball player. Lawyers, same thing. Law schools have been turning out too many Juris Doctors for the market for decades.

      But you're right in the big picture. It's not that professors cost too much. You're talking the highest level of professional educators. They should be damn good (in my experience most are) and be paid well for what they do, commensurate with what other highly skilled professionals make. Their incomes have more or less kept pace with the professional workforce over the last few decades. They're not driving the college inflation trend. One big factor is a drastically reduced PUBLIC share of the budgets of state universities. There used to be much bigger subsidies.

    59. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Only problem is its not free market. Whats the opposite of free market? Oh yea, heavily regulated, that would describe our colleges better.

      Many are state run, no free market right there, getting subsidies from all levels of government in return for following their rules, again no free market, and they are accredited by the government, no free market. Lets top it off by all student loans being backed by a clause in Obamacare so it is nearly impossible to get a loan not backed by the government.

      At no level anywhere is college free market. As a matter of fact that is EXACTLY why it costs so much. When everyone is guaranteed a loan then you have more people applying than can realistically go to college. When you have more demand than product, what happens? Oh yea, costs go up, just like Fannie Mae did with housing a while ago.

      By the way, medicine may be the ONLY thing more regulated than college, again the opposite of free market, and amazingly enough its even more expensive.

    60. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say we just measure each college president's dick (or clitoris) size. I feel like this will be a fairer assessment. Oddly, the smaller the dick the better education you'll probably be receiving. No matter what dick size, you'll still be getting fucked by it though in the end.

    61. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, the cost of staffing is increasing -- not the cost of salaries, the cost of healthcare programs. That, coupled with the winnowing amount of state dollars that can be given to public universities, is forcing universities to charge more for tuition. It's not to get rich, like with private for-profit institutions like Phoenix University, that provide minimal benefit if any.

    62. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but you ignore massive amounts of evidence that this pure free market capitalism has been causing strife and economic ruination since the 70's.

      There is no pure free market capitalism.

      Just for one example, it was the deregulation of the housing and mortgage industry that allowed "free market" to destroy the economy in 2008.

      No, it was the regulation of the home loan "industry" that created the problem that anyone with any sense could have seen coming. When you force banks to make bad loans, those bad loans have to go somewhere. When people with as much access to information as Dodd and Frank keep claiming there is no problem and keep stonewalling any regulation that would have helped prevent the collapse, you have to wonder why.

      Competition and free markets are also the cause of much evil in the world today.

      No, abuse of power is the cause of much evil in the world today. There are no truly free markets, so that can't be the excuse. Perhaps if the markets were freer and legislation and external control wasn't being applied to turn the market into a political and social tool for power. You know, like if banking regulations didn't force banks to make home loans to people who couldn't afford them if they wanted to avoid lawsuits over potential redlining, then maybe the banks wouldn't have had so much bad paper to find some way of dealing with. You know, just a thought.

    63. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by s.petry · · Score: 1

      The deregulation you are referring to was a combination of regulations, that when cancelled allowed monopolization and derivative investments. Further deregulation that harmed citizens allowed interstate banking (which if it remained would have locked the housing crash to a single state as no other banks would have been impacted), and allowed investment banks to merge with savings and loan banks.

      If you wish to further look at deregulation which harmed the market, we could look at the deregulation of media which has allowed the monopolization of all forms of media ensuring the public has no clue what is happening unless big brother decides to tell them something (or twist the truth and lie when caught with their hand in the cookie jar).

      Is that what you were implying by using "free market capitalism"? Prior to the deregulation, Capitalism worked pretty well. Not perfect, but a regulated free market is the best form of economics. Adam Smith stated that regulation was required, or we end up back a mercantilism's failures.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    64. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 2

      Actually I have found for my engineering classes that a heck of a lot of the information is not available online. So far it is the only thing I have not been able to find online. Many of the equations in my heat transfer books, fluid equations, thermo equations are just not found online.

      Online I have been able to find all the pure math stuff, the basics of heat transfer, fluid mechanics etc but none of the specific equations that are based on experiments. Heck if you look at Perry's Chemical Engineers' Handbook you will find a LOT of stuff you won't find online.

      I wish I did not have to go back to college to learn this stuff since I could learn it a lot faster on my own. Despite all the advice from various billionaires about college being pointless and you don't need to go their companies WILL NOT hire you as an engineer if you don't have the degree.

      So while most degrees you can learn everything you need online you certainly can't do it for all of them. On the plus side engineers can pay the loans back.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    65. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by DirePickle · · Score: 1

      In addition to the very good points made by the other people that responded to your comment, that's not actually the average cost to go to a university. That may be the average cost of a private school or the average out-of-state tuition for a school or something, but if you go to a state-subsidized school in the state that you are a resident, it's probably closer to $10k/yr on average.

    66. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's per year in the US vs. total cost of degree in Australia. Not quite the same thing.

    67. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by paulpach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just for one example, it was the deregulation of the housing and mortgage industry that allowed "free market" to destroy the economy in 2008. You should take a world history class, fool. Hell, just get up to date on current events! Competition and free markets are also the cause of much evil in the world today.

      1997 the government decided that people should not pay capital gain taxes on houses but should pay capital gain taxes on everything else
      2001 to come out of the recession, the government (via the federal reserve) artificially lowered interest rates to 1% and kept them there for 3 years. Fueling a borrowing spree
      You have monsters like Fannie mae and Freddy mac, which are entities created by government with an implicit government garantee now made explicit. That bought mortgage securities from anyone capable of fogging a mirror. Creating a massive wave of creative loans such as ARMs. Banks hurried to finance anyone, so that they could turn around and sell the mortgage to government backed Fannie Mae and Freddy mac.
      CRA (community reinvestment act) forced banks to give loans to lower income brackets that they would not have done otherwise
      FHA provided garantees to mortages that allowed people to get a loan with 0% down. This meant that the minute houses went down even a little, a lot of people would end up underwater, which further fuels foreclosures creating a massive snowball effect.

      Wake up, there is nothing free about the housing market, there is no deregulation. Please tell me what housing related law was struck down?. The bubble was made entirely courtesy of massive government distortions (which are still at full force). The minute the free marked tried to correct the misallocation in 2007 - 2008, and get rid of all these wasteful activities, the government doubled down on distortions (called them stimulus), fueling yet another bubble that will be sure to burst sooner or later.

    68. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by locketine · · Score: 1

      You seem to be arguing against basic competitive economic theory. While your point seems logical the more likely case is that the low ROI colleges will starve until they lower their prices or increase graduation and post-education employment rates. I won't argue that the high ROI schools won't go down a bit once people start flocking to them for the best deal but to think the prices would only go up when people are given tools for finding the best schools doesn't make much sense.

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    69. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by fredprado · · Score: 1

      I must disagree. The only value of formal education, which is what we are talking about, actually is earnings potential.

    70. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you don't count either of these because they're low in frequency (especially the dropouts who end up making a lot of money) and because people drop out for many reasons unrelated to the college's merit. We want a measure of how things work out for those who graduate from a college and then put their education to use in the world. Dropouts, rich or not, skew the data in unhelpful ways.

    71. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the economy required a massive housing bubble from 2002 through 2008 then it already crashed.

      In fact it did--in 2002. A massive central bank allowed us to think we were ok for another 6 years.

      Well, eleven years and counting....

    72. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What I simply don't understand is why US universities are so expensive.

      Theyre not.

      Over here, a degree (not counting the really expensive ones like medicine) costs $15-30k and a masters $20-37k.

      Same here.

      Well, until someone decides that they want to go out of state, to a really expensive school, and then complain about debt, sure. For the record, I live in Va, and I can go to any of the following schools for ~$400 /credit:

      • WIlliam and Mary
      • Va Tech
      • U.Va
      • GMU
      • JMU

      I can also complete the first two years of undergrad for ~$100/credit at Va's community college system, and transfer into any of those. As I work it out, youre looking at ~$20k for your undergrad from fairly terrific schools ( I hear that UVA is considered "decent"....).

      The "Why" is that sometimes people decide its a good idea to go to a university that they cant afford for a degree in an unmarketable field, and then complain that theyve dug themselves into a hole.

    73. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Whens the last time you actually looked at what a degree costs? Because you really seem to have no idea. In-state tuition tends to be pretty much in line with what GP posted as the norm in australia. Its only when you go to ridiculously high end schools out of state (for cripes sake UVa in-state tuition is ~$12k / year) that you get into trouble.

      But dont let me interrupt your rant about things that arent actually a problem. Clearly, we can ignore the fact that more Americans than ever have an undergrad. Clearly, its a problem that only the federal government can solve (wasnt that in article 11 of the constitution?).

    74. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Speaking of history, are you aware that undergrad degrees are at an all time high in the US?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.png

      Looks like theres more than enough ignorance to go around in this topic.

      but you ignore massive amounts of evidence that this pure free market capitalism

      Also, we dont have "pure, free capitalism", and very few people actually want one.

      Just for one example, it was the deregulation of the housing and mortgage industry that allowed "free market" to destroy the economy in 2008.

      Wasnt there some pressure on Fannie Mae to give out a bunch of risky mortgage loans?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannie_Mae#1990s

      Seems to me that played a role, and I dont think you would call that a result of deregulation.

    75. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      It used to be that they simply could not charge that much, because the average person simply could not afford to pay.

      And yet we have more college grads than ever, and loads of folks coming from overseas to go to US universities.

      The same thing happened for Cars... It used to be that you could by a Model-T for pretty cheap money but you paid all up front.

      And yet a vastly higher percentage of Americans now own cars than when the Model-T was around.

      Somehow, your claims dont add up.

    76. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      All the knowledge you'd gain from college can be found for free online.

      Maybe if you are getting a degree in Javascript, or Linux, or some other computer topic - pretty much anything else? Not so much. Not to mention that any college degree worth a damn is more than just memorizing random facts - you also learn how to research, how to do, etc... etc...

    77. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by spiffydudex · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Its been an interesting trend. When the Government offers more money, the tuition magically increases due to "higher costs". We all know that the costs have not increased that much. Fuel costs have stayed the same for roughly 7 years now. Why are institutions increasing the cost of education? Because they can and the government will gladly give out more student loads through Sally Mae. Plus with the added factor of the current "College Craze" the demand for seats is ever growing so there is really no stopping the bloated machine.

    78. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Gosh, you mean a representative government is working exactly as it was intended? Heaven forfend. Lower taxes! The power of government can cure all ills.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    79. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Just so we all know, McCarthyism wasn't a fraud. There really were Communists in the State Department.

      The 2008 disaster was in no way related to anything resembling a free market. Do you actually believe that, or do you just tell yourself that so that you can enjoy mistargeted hate?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    80. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by etschreiber · · Score: 1

      Why are the costs going up? The main reason is that the cost of living is going up, while the states keep cutting the portion of the tuition that they pay so that they can spend that money on other programs. Most universities are getting smaller and smaller portions of their operating budget from the state, which inevitably means that they have to charge higher and higher tuition to make up the difference. There's no market magic involved here. There's no supply and demand at work. The demand is fixed; everyone wants an education. The supply is also fixed; every school can handle only a certain number of people. There's no profit margin—most schools are purely nonprofit and cannot make money except as temporary savings towards future costs—therefore, the cost is purely driven by the cost of operation. Any statements to the contrary, at least as far as public universities are concerned, are just plain wrong.

      The "sticker price" of universities are going up much faster than the "net price." For example, look at the average net price for private institutions over time.

      From 1992-93 to 2012-13, the sticker price of tuition and fees has gone from $17,040 to $29,060 while the net price has gone from $10,010 to $13,380. The net price is a much more reasonable increase both in terms of percentage and total change in cost.

      This pricing model has allowed for the universities to segment their market effectively and have people of different income levels pay what the universities feel is proper. So while it seems that universities have been getting MUCH more expensive, in reality, the pricing increases have been modest.

      For more pricing trends for universities, try this link.

    81. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by nbauman · · Score: 1

      You are correct but at some point you must wonder whether it's worth it to go into debt, and by how much, to free your mind via Art History.

      I agree that it's a bad idea to go into debt.

      But I know a lot of people with art history degrees who are making a lot of money. In New York, art is a big industry.

      It's hard to figure out what the value of a major is. There's no secure choice any more.

      Science had an article recently about how people with anthropology degrees are doing very well.

      A lot of scientists graduated with liberal arts degrees. Eric Kandell, who won a Nobel prize for his work in the neurobiology of smell, got a degree in European literature.

      There are no degrees that are secure any more.

      I know accountants who are out of work.

      Engineering is feast and famine, depending on your major.

    82. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by nbauman · · Score: 1

      We used to have a great government-subsidized university system. It turned out Nobel laureates and captains of industry. It was a meritocracy. You could get in if your grades were good. It didn't matter whether you could afford to pay.

      New York City had the City College system, which was free and turned out the leaders of American science and industry. New York State had the state university system, which was almost free. California created a state university system modeled on New York State. There were land grant agricultural and technical schools dotted across the country.

      In around 1980, when the Republicans took over California, they cut taxes and now the university has to be close to self-supporting. The other universities followed. City College charged tuition. The money disappeared.

      These anti-tax conservatives hate public education. They don't want to pay for other peoples' kids. They don't want to pay to have a more educated society. They especially don't want to pay to educate black people.

    83. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    84. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      if you dig in, you can find lots of small places where costs could easily be cut, and together they add up to big inefficiencies.

      How about this tiny litte place where costs can be cut: Coach Salaries Or, how about professor salaries.

      The real reason it costs so much is because of fiddling by the government and professor unions. Loans, subsidies, mandated maximum working hours by professors, and a host of other, "minor" things as you call them. Not only that, but the colleges themselves are more than willing to raise the barrier for entry into the college market through supposed "accreditation" rules, stiffling competition from leaner/more efficient colleges that might spring up.

      And some more info on the subject, from Thomas Sowell here.

    85. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so tuition doubling over 20 years seems unreasonable.....what were you paying for a movie ticket 20 years ago, or for a sandwich.....there is also this thing called inflation.

      Couple that with what sound like much nicer facilities and it seems like a better deal.

    86. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by pantaril · · Score: 1

      the value of an education does not reside solely in earnings potential

      Maybe for the independently wealthy, that's true. For most people, we borrow money to go to that fancy university and then we've got to pay it back plus interest. Spending years in hock to attend a school that has limited potential to aid me in getting a job to pay off that nut is not particularly useful regardless of how much I might enjoy that semester studying the works of Euripides.

      That's why socialised education is good thing. When choosing college or university, student should be free to choose what he thinks is best for him, for his personal development and growth, not what is best for current situation on job market. Otherwise, we are turning universities into simple trade schools.
      I firmly believe that if we want our higher school system to produce great people we need to let it be (at least partialy) independent from constant economic (and political) pressures. Government should cover the cost of 5 years long program for anyone interested (and smart enough to get through entry exams) from taxes. It should also make sure that the universities meets some quality standards. But otherwise, it should not meddle with them. Accademic freedom and independence is IMO worth it for the society as whole.

      Note that socialised higher education is working well in some post-communistic european countries (i'm member of one of them) or in scandinavian countries like Sweden or Norway. Aside from advantages i listed above, "free" higher education has IMO positive effect on social mobility and makes the society more egalitarian (with tuition as high as in USA, how many people are prevented from attending school just because of their poor financial situation?)
      Unfortunately, in recent years there is a push from right-wing part of our political representation to introduce mandatory tuiton, student loans and in other ways comercialise higher education. I hope we'll resist this change as it is IMO more and more clear that it is not a fair or good way to provide education.

    87. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there a breakout of how much the government is subsidizing each degree?

    88. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

      If the government is making the loans, where is the pressure for universities to cut tuition?

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    89. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by trout007 · · Score: 1

      Here is the problem with your logic. It takes resources for you to go to college, resources someone has to provide. If you use those resources in some way which doesn't give you an increase in productivity it is a net loss in wealth. Now people do this all the time, it's called leisure and there is nothing wrong with it. But going to college without increasing your earning potential is the same as going to spend a year in Europe. Sure it's a great thing, if you can afford it.

      Let's say you make $40k a year. You are deciding if you should go to college. Say you have to borrow $40k to go. If you do this without expecting any increase in earning potential you may as well spend it on travel or any other leisure activity. The problem for you is once you have blown that $40k and are now in debt and are stuck making payments which assuming a 10 year payback at 4% interest will cost over $4k a year. Now you have to live the next 10 years with a lower income than before.

      This doesn't change if someone else pays for the education it just redistributes the effects. If enough people do this the net effect is a poorer economy.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    90. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      Are you an accountant? Going to college is not just a before/after balance sheet. Of course you can view it like that if money is everything in your life or if you're an idiot.
      College is also about meeting and connecting with people, making life experiences and important choices, unexpected opportunities, building character, establishing friendships, learning and shaping your mind, knowing what it means to work hard and meet deadlines, and last but not least, fun, girls, parties.

    91. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by perlith · · Score: 1

      . Fixing those sorts of policies at a systemwide level and giving bonuses for finding ways to improve efficiency are what is needed. Unfortunately, that sort of thinking seems to be very contrary to the university culture, at least in the United States

      Having worked at a major US university as a staff member, I can attest to this. There is absolutely no incentive for improvement. And if you decide to try to make a suggestion for improvement, it will often be shot down because it tramples over somebody else's previous work / existing process in place. Note: This behavior isn't limited to universities, however, as a culture it tends to be a lot worse there.

    92. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by GLMDesigns · · Score: 0

      Of course you pay capital gains on houses. Why do you think 1031 exchanges exist? Please.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    93. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by FictionPimp · · Score: 2

      And if Obama gets his way those community colleges will have less funding. Why? Because of low graduation rates.

      Many kids don't graduate from community colleges, they transfer out to 4 year schools. Further more, many community colleges do not have strict admissions (if any) and allow anyone to attend. So they reduce aid to schools like this because their rating declines due to low graduation rates. Students are forced to look at 4 year schools and pay more for their education or can't get admissions at all.

      Doesn't seem like a good plan. I'm all for putting more information into the hands of the consumers. Let's post transfer rates, graduation rates, graduation rates of people who transferred from or to this school, job placements, etc. Let's also talk about average salaries for people on a degree path at the 1 year, 5year, and 15 year timeline.

      Let's also start talking about trade schools and apprenticeships as alternatives to college. There are many careers and students that I think would be better served this way.

      While we are at it, let's push more self starter education. WGU has a great program for students who are self starters and can learn online. There are other colleges and universities doing the same. The cost of these online courses is trivial compared to traditional education.

    94. Re: Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Objectivist · · Score: 1

      The main reason why college is so expensive in the US is government involvement in the system. ANY TIME the government gets entrenched in an industry prices go up and quality declines. For instance, the government is the main provider of school loans. That makes much more credit available than would exist in a free market. This creates an incentive for schools to raise tuition because they know students can just run to the government and easily get a loan to fund the ludicrous tuition. In a free market, that type of credit would not be available. Thus, universities would be forces to keep their prices lower if they want to have customers.

    95. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 1

      Two words on why college cost so much: Sallie Mae.

    96. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 1

      I live in the US, and have attended several colleges. State college, private college, and community college. It is expensive, but I've never seen these $28k per year schools. It took me six years to finish my degree, once I got serious (I worked full-time and was supporting a wife and kids), and I graduated with about $50k in student loans. Yes this is too high, but not anywhere near 28k a year. I graduated from a state-run university. Even the private college I went too, after scholarships, I probably could have graduated with only around 10k in student loans. But I don't know what the overall cost was with room and board.

    97. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by intermodal · · Score: 1

      you are correct that the value of an education does not reside solely in earnings potential. However, the value of a debt is quantifiable and can be significant burden that can cripple people financially. To make a major fiscal decision without a reasonable expectation of being able to get out from under its financial obligations is foolhardy.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    98. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is important to remember that the more expensive schools are typically practicing income redistribution as a policy goal. Take for example a private school charging $60,000 per annum (they certainly exist). Now it doesn't cost nearly this much to actually educate a college student, but, it does enable them to "get" the $60,000 from those parents they deem can afford it, which then provides them a pool of grant money to re-distribute to those they deem can't or need assistance (you do know there is a reason for the FAFSA and the CSS-Profile data, the later of which make filling out you 1040 look like child's play).

    99. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the professor salaries that are the cause. It is the number of administrative staff. At UC Berkeley there are more administrators than professors. Much instruction is done by non-tenured lecturers. If the Obamination really wanted to improve higher education, he should (actually stay out of it) require that schools have no more than a ratio of at least 2:1 of professors to administrators. Perhaps the administrators could be adjunct for adjunct wages.

    100. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When will you people face facts that it's not a free market. There are no free markets in the US and probably any other industrialized nation on this planet.
       
      It's regulated just like all other markets and guess what?? The regulations favor the same people you claim regulation protects us from! Fancy that! So you want to dump on more regulations in the hopes to fix the old regulations? How is that working out for those who pay for their own health insurance? You're in for a wicked surprise if you'd just take off your blinders.
       
      And by this I'm not saying no regulations are what are needed but the current system is broken and current regulations are part of the problem.

    101. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Cost of living is the reason? Seriously?

      College prices have increased at rates many times higher than inflation at most schools. So THAT is not the reason..

      There is more money available to the system so the price of the commodity provided goes up. I learned that in my college economics class decades ago. Did that theory change?

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    102. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Price doubling over 20 years is only 3.5% APR.

      That's not an unreasonable number, especially since it includes the 90s.

    103. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by MightyYar · · Score: 1
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    104. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      College costs have doubled, even after adjusting for inflation.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    105. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by khallow · · Score: 1

      Couple that with what sound like much nicer facilities

      "Much nicer facilities" which don't actually help deliver a better education.

      and it seems like a better deal.

      Well, there are a lot of gullible cows in the education corral. What makes this a better deal for the student? That they can go more deeply into debt before they drop out of college?

    106. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      Another factor which relates to the cost of employees is health care costs. I've been working with the IT department of a university for awhile and starting this summer they gave all their employees over 50 a early retirement option because they simply 'cost to much in health insurance costs' and 'were inflating the health insurance fees for younger staff'.

      This was at a 'state financed' university, so professor contracts are handled at the state level. The state has also created a split budget system for the universities. One budget covers the costs of running and maintaining the school. The other budget is for new construction or reconstruction of old buildings. The second budget is now higher than the first and the university cannot use funds from the bigger one on things covered by the smaller one. Hence each semester there they demolish an old building from the 70's and rebuild it as a modern structure. To add to this the state has recently told the school that they have to many classrooms and should demolish more buildings with no replacements. Which is funny as their class sizes have gone up to the point where 100 level classes have upwards of 70 students in each class and there are few rooms that can hold them.

      When I graduated high school I had looked at attending this particular university and tuition then was ~$6000/year (that was '96) it is now $15k/year.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    107. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      When you force banks to make bad loans, those bad loans have to go somewhere.

      Banks were not forced to make bad loans. The various incentive programs still required the borrower to pass through the bank's lending criteria before making a loan.

      What was new is banks didn't have to hold bad loans, thanks to securitization. So banks made a crapload of bad loans and then bundled them into a financial product. The bank got paid back long before the loan went bad. That removed the bank's incentive to not make bad loans.

    108. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Actually it does when you have to repay loans. When you leave college with $30k or more, you need to know how much money you are going to make in order to pay back that loan.

    109. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 2

      Yeah it has nothing to do with all the high salaries they pay college administrators...

    110. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You have monsters like Fannie mae and Freddy mac, which are entities created by government with an implicit government garantee now made explicit. That bought mortgage securities from anyone capable of fogging a mirror.

      Here's where your theory starts to fall apart. Fannie and Freddy could only make or purchase "conforming" loans until well after the bubble had inflated. "Conforming" loans meant Fannie and Freddy could not buy all the bad loans the banks were making inflating the bubble.

      Until the end of the bubble, when the banks needed a place to dump their now-crappy portfolio.

      CRA (community reinvestment act) forced banks to give loans to lower income brackets that they would not have done otherwise

      The CRA provides incentives. The CRA also says that the borrower has to pass through the bank's normal lending criteria. Your theory also runs into the problem that the CRA changes you claim to be the problem were passed in the 90s. If your theory were correct, it wouldn't have taken 20 years to cause problems.

      FHA provided garantees to mortages that allowed people to get a loan with 0% down.

      Nope. Minimum is 3% down. And less than 20% down requires hefty PMI payments. PMI covers the risk of default on these more-than-80% mortgages

      What was new was not the CRA, FHA, or Fannie and Freddy. They were doing the same things they had done for decades, and there wasn't a massive housing bubble during those decades.

      What was new was securitization of home loans. Banks used to have to keep their loans, or sell the loans individually. That provided tons of incentives to make "good" loans - the bank would be stuck with the bad loans.

      With securitization, banks now had a place to dump bad loans. So there was little incentive to make only "good" loans - the bank got paid back well before the loan went bad.

    111. Re: Forget ratings, measure ROI. by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

      It is caused by the general negative stigma of "living in mom's basement".

      The thing is, there are PhDs who lives in mom's basement due to economic reasons. People now willing to live in mom's basement than carrying mortgage (and crapload of other) debt.

      Cash is king. Debt is slavery.

    112. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by sckeener · · Score: 1

      What is the median salary, divided by total cost of education, one year and five years after graduation? That is really the main thing a prospective student needs to know. Everything else is window dressing.

      Correction, this might be what the student wants to know, but this is definitely what the government needs to know. After all, what bank loans out money with slim chances of getting the money back? There are more important things than money when seeking a college degree, but the government shouldn't be funding degrees or colleges where there is no chance of getting the funding back over time.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    113. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to pump out even more business students, there.

    114. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1
      Exactly. GP is rewriting the same Republican/Libertarian talking points that always follows the same pattern:

      Step 1. Ignore the facts
      Step 2. Rewrite history
      Step 3: ????
      Step 4: Profit!

      (Step 3, in this case, is to use this ignorance to advocate for further relaxed regulations, against the best interests of the general population)

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    115. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      I know this is embarrassing, but you accidentally put "free market" in your paragraph about housing when you obviously meant government backed loaning practices to people that couldn't afford them. Just wanted to make sure you didn't look like a complete idiot when trying to say that had anything at all to do with a free market as that has not existed in that area, probably ever.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    116. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      What I simply don't understand is why US universities are so expensive. It's gotten to the point where it seems that any sort of education can only be gotten my pretty much taking on so much debt that you will be lucky to pay it back - which then forces the government to start putting in copious amounts of scholarships/funding to keep students there.

      You got your cause and effect backwards! It's because of the "free" government aid to any and all, which has caused prices to go through the roof!

    117. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      And in the religion of statism, if the economy is failing that must be because we don't have enough rules and regulations and mother fucking red tape.

      What a stupid dipshit you are.

    118. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Free market systems are the root of it.

      Except we don't live in a "free market", jackass. We live in a fucking state controlled centrally planned economy....which evil politicians have successfully brainwashed dumb ass useful idiots like yourself into believing is a "free market." What we have is called "mercantilism." Google mother fucker....do you use it?

    119. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no supply and demand at work. The demand is fixed; everyone wants an education. The supply is also fixed; every school can handle only a certain number of people.

      Bullshit.
      If the supply and demand were fixed, the number of enrollments wouldn't change this much.
      http://www.factset.com/insight/2013/8/population-of-college-and-post-college-students.png ... And it's even more extreme when you look further back. Taxes and regulations didn't change enough during this period to explain such a huge difference.

      The supply isn't fixed either - anyone could open a new university, but their main value is the message they send to employers: "this person is qualified to X". That's why an overhaul of the ratings system is going to do a lot of good, and why it "faced immediate skepticism from college leaders who worry the rankings could cost their institutions millions of dollars". Students can still get excellent degrees at cheaper, newer universities with less fame, but good resources. The existing universities don't want to miss out on this rent, and yes - public universities still care about money and are still subject to economics.

      I'm sorry that your parents didn't get a larger slice of the pie, but I think it's because professors aren't the ones really calling the shots.

    120. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      As someone whose parents both retired recently from teaching at four-year universities, I don't buy that explanation. At all. It's pure and utter bulls**t. The fact is, most universities are barely holding on financially, having to cut entire programs to keep from going under. Professors' salaries barely keep up with inflation most of the time, if that, and staff salaries don't fare much better.

      Really? And what do those administrators' salaries look like? Are they just barely scraping by too?

    121. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BECAUSE the government is giving away money. The universities will keep increasing costs because they can, and because the government will continue to fund what may very well be a bad loan. Additionally private institutions are LINING UP to give out student loan debt. You can't ESCAPE it! Who wouldn't want to loan out money at 8% interest rate that the borrower can never default on?

      You can default, you just can't get out of it by bankruptcy. Lenders can still get screwed if someone racks up an enormous debt, flunks out, and becomes a low-income wage slave. Sure, their income is garnished... but it's less than 8% return.

    122. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      The knowledge you get bumbling around the Internet, while useful and good to have, is in no way compares to a formal education.

      Wrong, asshole.

      I have a 1TB hard drive full of BOOKS which I have downloaded, for free, off bittorrent.

      (And yes I am 100% proud of the fact that I got em free. Copyright apologists can go fuck themselves with a fence post driver.)

      I was a kid in the BBS days and have literally grown up with the Internet. I am far more educated and smarter than 99.99999999999% (yes, all those nines are necessary) of you college apologists will ever dream of being.

      Within ten years I will be a multi-millionaire for sure, and perhaps even a billionaire. Even while you college apologists starve in the gutter.

      By the way, I can SING really good too....like as in "potential American Idol winner" good. Like as in "Prince ain't got shit" good. That comes from all the FREE MP3s I've downloaded online over the past 15 years, combined with a lot of practice. Had the Internet never existed, I would not even listen to music, let alone be able to sing. I still remember the first two MP3s my friend gave me back in the day: 2Pac - 2 of Amerikaz Most Wanted and Collective Soul - Breathe.

      You can take your "proper formal education" and shove it right up your asshole.....asshole.

    123. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you're paying too much it does. Especially in a world where the syllabus, lectures, and maybe even the textbooks, assignments and tests for college classes are online for free from top notch universities and real classes at "good schools" have hundreds of people.

      Please don't help these self-serving jerks spread their lies. A art history degree from an expensive college is a real dumb move and it's defended over and over with your statement. My capcha is "justify"

    124. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Actually I have found for my engineering classes that a heck of a lot of the information is not available online. So far it is the only thing I have not been able to find online. Many of the equations in my heat transfer books, fluid equations, thermo equations are just not found online.

      Sure they are.

      http://pirateproxy.net/torrent/4745001/Machinery_s_Handbook__27th_Edition_-_(Malestrom)

      I own a physical copy, but if I didn't I'd just download one.

    125. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      It's only less than 8% if they die young. The odds of someone attending college and then never getting a job above minimum wage and/or never marrying someone who makes above minimum wage is almost 0. You literally cannot make a safer investment as a bank.

    126. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by shiftless · · Score: 1

      The cost of college (at a state colleges) here has expanded because "we will cut your taxes" politicians kept getting elected, so the state cut their support of the colleges (20-odd% here from 2006-20011), so the colleges are now getting the money from the students.

      Really? And who supplies the student loans for said students....the student loan fairy?

    127. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greed is when you want what other people have created/earned. Wanting to keep and have what you yourself have created/earned isnt "greed".

    128. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right.

      So thirty years ago, working poor (along with everyone else) were forced via taxes to pay for the higher education of non-poor kids.

      Now, those who get an education are having to pay more of the actual cost themselves and theyre whining and crying about it. Tough fucking shit. And yet, far more people attend university than 30 years ago. Oh The Horror!

    129. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google mother fucker....do you use it?

      Google needs to get Samuel L. Jackson to advertise it's services.

    130. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for a large US Community College and the "Cost" of college is something we worry about regularly as we serve many students who simply do not have the financial means to attend college anyplace else. Our tuition is the lowest in our state for a college credit, and has been for 10+ years. We have no debit, and are very careful with our funds, providing just what is needed to educate students in a high quality way. There is a bit of a myth around the escalating cost of college though. If you look at inflation adjusted numbers over the last 20 years, the cost to "Educate" a single student has fallen rather significantly over time. We have been asked to do more with less over and over, and have managed to make that work. What has changed is where the rest of the funding comes from. The point of a "Public" education is that the education was subsidized by the "Public" via taxes. Most colleges have 3 major sources of income: Tuition From Students, Federal Funding (Direct & Student AID like PELL), and State Funding. This is often in roughly equal amounts, so students in public schools often only pay around 35% of the actual cost to educate them. Colleges only control one of these funding sources, tuition, and even then the state often "caps" the amounts. Both the Fed & State funding have fallen on a per student basis consistently for over a decade. That leaves only one option to meet the budget shortfalls.

      So a politician gets to "cut" taxes, and then complain when the Public College has to fill the gap of funding with the only one of the 3 sources it controls, Student Tuition. It is comical really to watch the President and others decry the skyrocketing costs of education and not look at the inflation adjusted "Cost of Instruction" per student to see if that has gone up or not. In every report I have seen the inflation adjusted cost to educate a student has decreased.

      So it now costs less per student to get an education, but students are having to pay a larger part of the per student cost of instruction. If you don't like the high cost of tuition stop cutting the funding.

    131. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Universities aren't increasing costs because they can, they're increasing tuition because they have no other choice. States used to fund their universities. Now they don't. Universities were forced to make up the difference and they did so by raising tuition. If the government was "giving away money" to the universities by maintaining funding at the levels it was 30 years ago the student debt crisis would never have existed in the first place.

    132. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Banks were not forced to make bad loans. The various incentive programs still required the borrower to pass through the bank's lending criteria before making a loan.

      And those lending criteria were under government scrutiny to prevent any suspicion of the awful problem of "redlining". Why, it's just awful that a bank might think that certain low-rent, low property-value neighborhoods just might have and attract a large percentage of, can I use the word safely?, poor people who really couldn't afford a loan? When the government is scrutinizing your lending reports and might see that you don't have the same percentage of approved loans from area A that you do from area B, your "lending criteria" tend to be less strict. Your lending criteria adjust to meet the demands of the regulators or you go out of business. You want to expand your bank and put a new branch somewhere? Make sure the regulators are happy with your loan statistics or you don't get to.

      Couple that with the mantra of the time that "home ownership is a right" and that everyone should be able to afford one.

      I got my home loan during that boom time. I remember the nonsense that was being accepted as qualification for a loan. It wasn't quite as loose as "if you've ever seen a $5 bill sometime in your life you're qualified", but it wasn't far from it. ARMs were being pushed so that people who couldn't afford a mortgage at fixed rates could still get a loan. I took one look at the ARM information and thought "what moron would accept this?"* And today we have people in ads for credit counseling services crying that "we couldn't afford the balloon". You couldn't afford the loan at a fixed rate, why should you have thought that you could afford the balloon you knew was coming? But you wanted a house you knew you weren't going to be able to pay for in the long run, and the bank wanted to make a loan so that its statistics looked good. Everyone was motivated to make the deal -- based on government regulation.

      Now, nobody had any guns drawn, but I'd still say that the regulations forced the banks to make bad loans. Yes, the banks could have refused and faced huge penalties from government regulators, I guess. You're right after all. No bank was forced to make a bad loan. But then, no borrower was forced to accept an ARM, and no borrower was forced to try buying a home they couldn't pay for, either.

      * ARMs were a great way of creating a transient population, or serving an existing one. I live in a college town. The sales pitch was "if you are going to move in the next five years anyway, an ARM with a balloon five years from now is perfect for you..." But for people who intend on staying past the balloon, it sucks really bad.

      The bank got paid back long before the loan went bad. That removed the bank's incentive to not make bad loans.

      If there was no incentive for the banks to make bad loans they wouldn't have made them. The government regulators in their zeal to end any hint of discrimination in the marketplace created that incentive, even when the discrimination was based on "will you be able to pay the loan"? Then someone else bought the loans. They weren't forced to do that.

      In the long run, the obvious consequences of making bad loans took place. Even when the bubble was bursting, Dodd and Frank denied the problem, because they knew it was a natural result of their meddling in the markets. Whether it was a lot of small banks going under because they kept the bad paper, or a few large ones because they bought it from the others, the end result was still a burst bubble and a lot of people who got caught being unable to pay for the home they thought was their right. And a lot of people who were smart enough not to try buying something they couldn't afford were stuck paying for the others whose eyes were bigger than their fiscal stomach. You're welcome, by the way.

    133. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand the notion of "forcing your parents to pay". What the heck were your parents doing for your entire childhood and youth? The second discussion my wife and had about having children was "how are we going to pay for their college?" (right after "how many are we going to have?").

      We've been putting money away for a couple of years now (yes, we've been saving for years and haven't had our first child yet) and there will be no reason for our child to take out loans or anything similar. Compound interest is very powerful if you start saving early enough ($300 / month in a Fidelity 529 for 20 years is like $180k or so).

      Then again, I suppose if you're going in to social work, your parents probably don't think that far ahead.

    134. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by saleenS281 · · Score: 1

      Complete fabrication. When I see new buildings going up constantly, and $200 million+ stadiums at these colleges, "they have to" isn't a fact of life. They're doing it because they can, and because they want to.

    135. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by N0Man74 · · Score: 1

      There are many factors at work here.

      Administrator salaries are getting higher. Colleges are recruiting former corporate CEO's as presidents, and giving them big salaries (and trying to run colleges like a business, the mantra of the Right). College coaches tend to be paid a lot more than the educators. There is more reliance on tuition and less subsidies (also in line with the Right). Colleges are spending more to compete with other colleges on non-academic criteria, such as fancy athletic facilities, luxurious dorm rooms, etc.

      But there is also not much incentive to conserve money. I have seen first hand how there are incentives for departments to spend exactly 100% of their budget. If they spend less than their budget, they are penalized the next year under the assumption that too much was being allocated in that department. Well, it was true for that year, but departments still don't want their budgets cut, just in case they end up needing the full budget the next year.

      When departments get to the end of the year and realize that they have a budget surplus, they try to find ways to spend the rest of their budget. They will order new desks, new bookshelves, new computers, whether they really need them or not.

      That is the problem with a lot of public funded institutions in general... they are encouraged to waste.

    136. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doubling over 20 years is only 3.5% annual growth. That is not an unreasonable number compared to inflation.

    137. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Forcing me, the taxpayer who isn't your parent, to pay for something your parents should pay for.

    138. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, I paid for every day of school myself from ninth grade on.

    139. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you're right in the big picture. It's not that professors cost too much. You're talking the highest level of professional educators. They should be damn good (in my experience most are) and be paid well for what they do, commensurate with what other highly skilled professionals make.

      That comment regarding the "highest level" is completely inconsistent with my experience. In over 300 credit hours of college and graduate school coursework, with multiple master's degrees, at a number of different schools in different parts of the country, I have determined that only about 20% of the professors are good at teaching. The percentage was much higher for my high school.

      Many professors lack even basic communications and leadership skills that a good self-help book can explain. No doubt they are great researchers (or, more precisely, they are great at getting publications, which is not necessarily the same thing).

      A friend of mine, one of the top engineers in our group, says that his professors at school X were largely worthless, and he ended up teaching himself most of what he knows. I believe him. I won't say the name of school X, other than to note it is a top ranked CA engineering school. Unfortunately, school rankings are primarily based upon research, not teaching quality. Presumably the professors were too busy with their research to pay attention to doing a good job teaching undergraduates.

      I suppose that's one of the prices we pay for the publish-or-perish system.

      I have found in my own teaching experience that being good at it requires approaching it like an art. It's very time consuming, and one has to be fairly open-minded and humble with respect to one's own abilities to be able to recognize mistakes and learn from them. Perhaps that's something else many professors have trouble with.

    140. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      And those lending criteria were under government scrutiny to prevent any suspicion of the awful problem of "redlining".

      So you're arguing that evil government regulation took 40 years to create a housing bubble? Or did you not know the ban against redlining is from the 1970's edition of the CRA?

      I remember the nonsense that was being accepted as qualification for a loan. It wasn't quite as loose as "if you've ever seen a $5 bill sometime in your life you're qualified", but it wasn't far from it.

      Yeah, and banks have been doing that for 40 years, because they're just fighting against redlining, right?

      As I said above, the change that created the housing bubble was securitization. That let the banks dispose of those crappy loans before they went bad.

      If there was no incentive for the banks to make bad loans they wouldn't have made them.

      The incentive was to make money. The banks got paid as if the loans were good. The fact that they were a time bomb was not disclosed. Instead, they claimed credit default swaps protected the security.

    141. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by manu0601 · · Score: 2

      Good question, but difficult to answer, since you have to consider some french higher education system oddities.

      First, there are Universities, and there are Grandes Ecoles, which are smaller structures but highly subsided, and obvious first choices for students to get engineering or management degrees. Management can be expensive, but engineering remains very affordable, which means it is heavily subsided. The latter is especially true for the ones that manage to get into the top students of the top schools, where they can become civil servants while being student. Here government subsidies are at maximum level since the student gets paid a full wage (and has a mandatory 10 years as civil servant in return).

      Universities degrees tend to be less expensive that Grandes ecoles, while they are less subsided at the same time. This is explained because student/teacher ratio is much higher, and the bulk of higher education costs are wages.

      Another pitfall when trying to compare France to other countries is that a huge part of research is done by the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, which employs 11k researcher without teaching duties and 14k engineers, technicians and administrative persons to support research. These are deployed in universities and other institutions, but are not on universities payrolls.

      .

      But things are changing, as former president Sarkozy introduced University financial autonomy (they were previously largely handled by the government), while reducing their budget at the same time. President Hollande keeps walking on his predecessor tracks here, and just cut budgets more. This will force university degrees to get more expensive. Grandes Ecoles are less impacted by this trend, but we are assured that their time will come if the austerity fad keeps going on.

    142. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      How is this comment "Off-topic"? Common moderator. I was answering Point 1 "1997 the government decided that people should not pay capital gain taxes on houses but should pay capital gain taxes on everything else"

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    143. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The demand isn't, precisely speaking, fixed, but the demand is not changing that much. As a percentage of the population, it has slowly crept from about 45% to about 70% of the population over the course of 60 years, which is more than enough time for the market to readily meet that demand without triggering significant inflation. And, of course, the population has gone up, but IMO that really doesn't count.

      The point I was trying to make is that demand isn't based on the cost; it is based on the knowledge that without a college education, you can't get a job doing anything interesting or a job that pays well. Therefore, the demand isn't tied to the cost except insofar as the lack of availability of low-cost colleges could defer the spending for a period of time, but pent-up demand is still demand. Thus, effectively, demand is pretty much fixed.

      The supply is fixed in that in order to recruit more teachers in the fields that actually drive people to go to college—high tech, for example—you have to be able to outpay industry, or at least be moderately competitive. This turns out to be harder than it sounds. Also, in order to have a functioning university, you have to have a certain number of students just to be able to afford enough teachers to cover the required curriculum to become/remain accredited. And until you're accredited, your degree isn't worth anything, which makes it remarkably difficult to get enough students to start a new college or university. It's a really hard chicken-and-egg problem. For this reason, new universities (that are not branches of other universities) appear fairly infrequently.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    144. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      They're higher than professor salaries, but not by enough to be relevant. We're talking maybe half again more, and again, barely keeping up with inflation. There are exceptions (the presidents of many large colleges, for example), but they're the exception, not the rule.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    145. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Your experience was different than mine then. But if your professors were being hired and retained based on their research instead of education, that's a different thing for students to complain about. The students (or parents who in many cases pay the tuition) think they are paying for the teaching, not research. Also, if professors are paid to do research, compare their salaries to the salaries of similarly skilled non-academic researchers. They're not out of line either way.

      The high cost is largely due to overhead -- physical plant, non-teaching staff and administration. The same is actually true at your local school district, but you may not be as sensitive to it because you paid the cost through taxes rather than handing over a check that looked like 15 or 20 car payments each semester.

    146. Re:Forget ratings, measure ROI. by toddestan · · Score: 1

      If it wasn't for all the easy money being thrown around thanks to Sallie Mae, there's no way college administrators could be paid that much.

  2. I went to a Category 6 college.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    afterwards I couldn't afford a car or a home and it took me 10 years to recover from the damage!

    captcha:thriving

  3. Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another system that our leaders can use to punish their enemies and reward their friends!

    1. Re:Great! by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      All of the ranking criteria are quantitative. Your school's dropout rate is your dropout rate, regardless of how many political friends or enemies you have.

  4. All he does is suggest "broad" change by JackieBrown · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Where is the actually written bill?

    He loves going place to place and telling that audience what they want to hear and then passing the actual work to Congress who he knows won't/can't do it.

    1. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by kenj0418 · · Score: 0

      Where is the actually written bill?

      He loves going place to place and telling that audience what they want to hear and then passing the actual work to Congress who he knows won't/can't do it.

      What did you expect with a campaign slogan of "Hope for Change".

      What? that wasn't the slogan - well, it probably should have been.

    2. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Bills are written by the legislature, the President signs them. He can push an agenda, but he's not the one writing the actual bill.

    3. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bills are written by the legislature, the President signs them. He can push an agenda, but he's not the one writing the actual bill.

      Nothing's stopping him from writing a bill and giving it to a Rep. or Senator to introduce.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    4. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by icebike · · Score: 1, Troll

      Well, to date I haven't seen any actual work, either by him or congress.

      While the population turns more resentful by the day from intrusive government meddling and spying, he fiddles with programs that really don't need more government intervention.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by kenj0418 · · Score: 1

      Bills are written by the legislature, the President signs them. He can push an agenda, but he's not the one writing the actual bill.

      I know - I learned that in college. Oh wait, no I didn't. I learned it from Saturday morning cartoons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0

    6. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by dataspel · · Score: 1

      While the population turns more resentful by the day from intrusive government meddling and spying, he fiddles with programs that really don't need more government intervention.

      The population is doing nothing of the kind. Republicans resent him because they are the party out of power. Fringe leftists and libertarians resent him for their own reasons, but they are a vanishingly small fraction of the people. Most of the population either likes what he is doing, or don't care.

    7. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by wbr1 · · Score: 1

      Bills are written by the legislature, the President signs them. He can push an agenda, but he's not the one writing the actual bill.

      Nothing's stopping him from writing a bill and giving it to a Rep. or Senator to introduce.

      Nothing is stopping you from writing one either, except time and desire.

      Good luck getting anything worthwhile to even be noticed, much less brought to committee or the floor. If it is a somewhat hot button, it can be argued about incessantly, then tabled to a committee for review/revision over and over until it is gutted and has riders you would have never dreamed of that are completely unrelated.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    8. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check the approval ratings before making such a stupid statement.

    9. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by icebike · · Score: 1

      Ah, no. Look, when even the mainstream press keeps nagging on this NSA spying issue, its because People DO Care.
      That you don't is pretty disheartening.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    10. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by dugancent · · Score: 1

      Check congress's approval rating. See who comes out on top.

      --
      SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
    11. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 2

      Nothing is stopping you from writing one either, except time and desire.

      On the other hand, XxtraLarGe isn't the one that keeps promising to do stuff that is beyond his power and authority to do.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    12. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      As of last week, 46% of respondents approve of the President's job performance, 45% disapprove, and 8% have no opinion.

      The statement "Most of the population either likes what he is doing, or don't care" is absolutely true.

    13. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by dataspel · · Score: 1

      Should have said 'likes him', for which a citation is provided. Granted it is a few months old, but I expect it is still over 50%. http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/polling/postabc-poll-impressions-barack-obama-hillary/2013/06/26/4d6c1f0c-de4e-11e2-bc84-8049224b33e1_page.html

    14. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Donkey Party sycophant mods out in full force.

    15. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Yeah. We have a President who blames congress for not writing bills based on vague descriptions of ideas that he has.

      Congress does a lousy job defending itself because both parts are controlled by opposite sides and they are constantly blaming each other. The end result is that people hear 3 groups of people blaming Congress for all our woes. Of course Congress has a lower rating.

    16. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by lightknight · · Score: 1

      I'm going to need some proof that the 46% constitutes living, breathing people.

      Personally, any poll showing a president not taking a hit for the unveiling of a giant surveillance program is rather suspect -> you could have been totally against the program from day one, with video proof every day you were in office, spending every moment railing against it, and you'd still take a hit. For someone who is for it to come out with a 46% approval rating is, well, what we could call "Putin-high" in the business.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    17. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      But realistically, the President doesn't have time to write the bill himself, so it's going to be some other people doing the writing who might as well be writing it with the legislature directly.

    18. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure he is. He kept promising me that he'd fix the USB disconnects on resume in Linux, but he didn't! ...jerk...

    19. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, he has little time for work when he has to vacation and golf so much.

    20. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must be some rigged questions for such a poll. But not surprising either, because those 46% of respondents would be the most uninformed Americans who actually pay little or no attention to political news. Business as usual though... oh look, American Idol is on!

    21. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      A lot has happened in the past few month (well a lot has gotten out about what has been happening.)

      http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/gallup-daily-obama-job-approval.aspx

    22. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing's stopping him from writing a bill and giving it to a Rep. or Senator to introduce.

      Right on. Corporations do it all the time according to word on the street.

      ~;-)

    23. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Nothing is stopping you from writing one either, except time and desire.

      Good luck getting anything worthwhile to even be noticed, much less brought to committee or the floor. If it is a somewhat hot button, it can be argued about incessantly, then tabled to a committee for review/revision over and over until it is gutted and has riders you would have never dreamed of that are completely unrelated.

      You can increase your chances with the green lubricant - the more you apply, the easier the time you have to get the bill brought forward. If you lubricate more than one with the green lubricant,, things move quicker still.

    24. Re:All he does is suggest "broad" change by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      Take it up with Gallup.

  5. Neither Congressional nor Republican by kenj0418 · · Score: 0

    I'm neither a Congressman nor a Republican, but you can put me in the 'wary of deepening the government's role in higher education' column. So far their meddling in the marketplace has led to an inflation rate for higher education not only several times higher than the general inflation rate - but even higher than the 'skyrocketing healthcare cost' inflation rate we are alway hearing about.

    1. Re:Neither Congressional nor Republican by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm neither a Congressman nor a Republican, but you can put me in the 'wary of deepening the government's role in higher education' column. So far their meddling in the marketplace has led to an inflation rate for higher education not only several times higher than the general inflation rate - but even higher than the 'skyrocketing healthcare cost' inflation rate we are alway hearing about.

      Wary?!? Ha!

      Cost of tuition has often been linked to a reduction in State Funding, you don't need to be a Republicrat or Democan, but a mathematician to figure it out. Also, helps to read the news.

      Ha ha. So rich, I'm going to remember this one.

      Every time I saw tuition go up when I was in school it followed cuts in public education funding. Out here in California, the tuition at UC and CSU has gone up quickly because the state is trying to get its own budget under control after running deep into the red while that stupid actor was elected and re-elected by people who thought a tough talking actor with no experience at all in any government office should reside in Sacramento for 8 years.

      Ha hum damn. Going to take us a long time to pay off that mountain of debt, sorry UC and CSU.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:Neither Congressional nor Republican by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      Every time I saw tuition go up when I was in school it followed cuts in public education funding.

      Did you ever link it to the availability of easy student loans?

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    3. Re:Neither Congressional nor Republican by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      Every time I saw tuition go up when I was in school it followed cuts in public education funding.

      Did you ever link it to the availability of easy student loans?

      No, it was stated right in the announcements, published in the news. We would hear $500 M to $5 B being cut in announcements from the Governor's Office or California Department of Education - usually with a breakdown of what % would affect State of California colleges and universities as well as K-12 education, including Special Education, Early Childhood, Class Size Reduction and so on. There was quite a bit of paring of staff, but it couldn't cover it all, so tuition went up and students grumbled, protested and those unfortunate to be on the bubble had to drop out.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re:Neither Congressional nor Republican by BitZtream · · Score: 2

      To be fair, you guys generally vote yourselves lower taxes and more services on a daily basis. You kinda deserve what you've done to your state via stupidity in direct voting.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    5. Re:Neither Congressional nor Republican by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      It is also a matter of employability. Trades might lead to a quicker payoff but the public perception is for the most part you need to a professional to be a success. That means university and you'll pay what you need too. Heck it isn't exactly like the prospects for someone with just highschool is looking any better as time goes on that has to affect the price of higher education. The schools could pretty much charge me whatever they wanted to because it will sure beat being 60 years old and shoveling shit in the sun in the summer. Everything isn't just money: getting paid to sit on my ass, drink free coffee and play with a computer all day is its own reward.

    6. Re:Neither Congressional nor Republican by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      ...you can put me in the 'wary of deepening the government's role in higher education' column. So far their meddling in the marketplace...

      Don't worry, eliminating market failures such as by reducing information asymmetry is the exact opposite of "meddling in the marketplace."

      I forgive you, but it's sad when members of Congress wouldn't know a market failure if it slapped them upside the head. As another example, you'll have a tough time finding a Republican member of Congress who is able to define the term, "negative externality."

      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" --Upton Sinclair

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    7. Re:Neither Congressional nor Republican by swan5566 · · Score: 1

      Every time I saw tuition go up when I was in school it followed cuts in public education funding. Out here in California, the tuition at UC and CSU has gone up quickly because the state is trying to get its own budget under control after running deep into the red while that stupid actor was elected and re-elected by people who thought a tough talking actor with no experience at all in any government office should reside in Sacramento for 8 years.

      That's a sign of government subsidy withdrawal. It sucks going through it, but that doesn't mean is shouldn't happen. To do nothing now will only make it hurt even more later.

      --
      In debates about Christianity, there are two groups: those looking for answers, and those looking to just ask questions.
  6. Not again... by djupedal · · Score: 0

    The abandoned color-coded terrorism threat advisory scale will now become the 'colleges you want advisory scale'.

    green: $
    blue: $$
    yellow: $$$
    orange: $$$$
    red: $$$$$

    1. Re:Not again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      green: $ = Dartmouth
        blue: $$ = Columbia
        yellow: $$$ = Yale
        orange: $$$$ = Princeton
        red: $$$$$ = Harvard

  7. Ratings cost colleges?!? by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    Try losing students to skyrocketing tuition and fees. Dur.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Ratings cost colleges?!? by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      ...Except they don't.

      See, there are some little things called Pell Grants, Scholarships and Student Loans, these make it so college is much less price sensitive. Mix this with 6 years of guidance councilors stressing the importance of college, a depressed job market where a college degree is a requirement for even the most basic of entry-level positions and you have a market that isn't very price sensitive.

      Its not like a student applies for college and is hit by a $15K bill for their first year, loans and grants cover it and so they might only pay $1-2 thousand per year up front.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:Ratings cost colleges?!? by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      ...Except they don't.

      See, there are some little things called Pell Grants, Scholarships and Student Loans, these make it so college is much less price sensitive. Mix this with 6 years of guidance councilors stressing the importance of college, a depressed job market where a college degree is a requirement for even the most basic of entry-level positions and you have a market that isn't very price sensitive.

      Its not like a student applies for college and is hit by a $15K bill for their first year, loans and grants cover it and so they might only pay $1-2 thousand per year up front.

      The smart money is to spend your first two years at Junior or Community College, where all the credits will transfer, leaving only years 3 & 4 at the U.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:Ratings cost colleges?!? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      " a depressed job market where a college degree is a requirement for even the most basic of entry-level positions"

      That's just not true. There are tons of skilled trade jobs available that do not require college.

    4. Re:Ratings cost colleges?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The smart thing to do is to not go to college at all unless it's a legal requirement to get into your profession. Honestly, we need to go back to the days when there weren't tons of worthless losers enrolling in college; what we don't need is this 'everyone has to go to college' nonsense.

    5. Re:Ratings cost colleges?!? by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      The smart thing to do is to not go to college at all unless it's a legal requirement to get into your profession. Honestly, we need to go back to the days when there weren't tons of worthless losers enrolling in college; what we don't need is this 'everyone has to go to college' nonsense.

      Yeah, the good old days when the companies just went to Congress and begged for more H1B Visas, because them furriners is so smart, we needs moar of them.

      Well played.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    6. Re:Ratings cost colleges?!? by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      " a depressed job market where a college degree is a requirement for even the most basic of entry-level positions"

      That's just not true. There are tons of skilled trade jobs available that do not require college.

      And when those positions are lost due to shifting job markets, shifting work overseas, etc. Guess where those people end up - trying to learn a new trade. I watched em flock in when the Auto industry began imploding, then throughout as people in jobs that depended upon Autoworkers income and spending were folding, too.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    7. Re:Ratings cost colleges?!? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      I don't think plumbing jobs get outsourced to China very often.

  8. watermelons by maliqua · · Score: 0

    Measure it in watermelons

  9. How about a rating for contitutional violators by JoeyRox · · Score: 0

    That measures how well politicians uphold the amendments of the constitution, where low-rated politicians are automatically recalled from office.

  10. How about get rid of student loans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Forget a "best value" rating. How about getting rid of student loans? They're a self-perpetuating cycle of debt on the young; the loans make college more accessible, which increases the demand for colleges, which increases the tuition cost, which increases the amount of loans people have to take out to go to college.

    Besides, not everyone who goes to college should. I went to college right out of high school; if I had to do it again I would have gotten a job first, learned a few things, then gone to college when I was more mature enough to handle it and gotten something out of 4 years instead of next to nothing out of 5+. Or instead of pushing everyone to college, why not encourage more trade schools? Not everyone is an academic or has the aptitude, but while I'm a college graduate I may as well be a child when it comes to fixing a car or welding two plates together. Besides, here in California I know a few companies that would take a kid right out of high school with a C average, train him in a trade like electrician or welding or pipe fitting, and get him to a journeyman status in 2 years. By 20 he'd be making $20/hour with full benefits with a high school diploma and no student loans; I know tons of college graduates who would kill for a job like that.

    1. Re:How about get rid of student loans? by istartedi · · Score: 0

      Never. It's an arms race. Your neighbor levers up, so you gotta lever up. Like all arms races, the only winners are the arms dealers. Wait for it... Educational-Industrial complex. You knew that was coming.

      Also, they're part of Obama's core constituency. He has to pay lip service to the idea of reducing costs; but his political incentive is to do otherwise. This speech will be forgotten as soon as the news cycle rotates. The colleges will continue to get the money and vote Democrat.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    2. Re:How about get rid of student loans? by subanark · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Want the potential of college without the risk of massive debt due to picking the wrong major or flunking out?

      Try Oregon's new College tuition bill "Pay Forward" (bill passed, but not yet implemented). The government pays for the full cost of tuition over 4 years. You pay them 3% of your salary for 24 years. Is it more expensive for the student? For good jobs, sure. But it gives a peace of mind that you aren't going to be hurt too badly financially, and reduces the penalty if college just didn't work out for you.

    3. Re:How about get rid of student loans? by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      Want the potential of college without the risk of massive debt due to picking the wrong major or flunking out?

      Try Oregon's new College tuition bill "Pay Forward" (bill passed, but not yet implemented). The government pays for the full cost of tuition over 4 years. You pay them 3% of your salary for 24 years. Is it more expensive for the student? For good jobs, sure. But it gives a peace of mind that you aren't going to be hurt too badly financially, and reduces the penalty if college just didn't work out for you.

      I assume there's a provision for if the student moves out of state or out of the country.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re:How about get rid of student loans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    5. Re:How about get rid of student loans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds interesting, but is it mandatory? That is, if I'm going to be a art/history/literature major, I may very well take you up on that because of the likelihood of a low paying occupation. If I'm looking at anything STEM related, I have some confidence that my major is going to pay off, so I'm going to pass on this little insurance plan. If all of your high salary majors opt out, who pays for the rest?
       

    6. Re:How about get rid of student loans? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      But it gives a peace of mind that you aren't going to be hurt too badly financially, and reduces the penalty if college just didn't work out for you.

      Sure....while putting YOUR burden on someone else's shoulders.

      Go find another country to pimp your bullshit....comrade.

    7. Re:How about get rid of student loans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still debt that could be fled either way - except in this case its value is tied to post-facto income, not expected future income.

  11. Colleges Will LOVE This... by DesertJazz · · Score: 1

    The way it's written will negatively impact a lot of the higher ranked colleges from the past with the financial incentives that are mentioned. For the large private schools they're not going to care so much, but I have to imagine this will be dead in the water from the get go. Too much alumni power in the legislature for this to be something that will ever make its way through!

  12. Can't hurt... by rhodium_mir · · Score: 1

    Pretty much anything is an improvement on our current system where we hand naive eighteen year olds six digits worth of grants and loans and say, "Here, spend this as you please."

    --
    You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
  13. we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    for most job an 2 year Community College and or tech / trade school is all that is needed. To much push for the old 4 year system.

    1. Re:we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      for most job an 2 year Community College and or tech / trade school is all that is needed. To much push for the old 4 year system.

      We are on a track where only the children of the very well off will be able to afford higher education.

      Sounds like the 19th century and earlier, doesn't it?

      an apprentice nano-tech engineer? No, we do not take on apprentices .. though we might, because that Reginald Twit IV is proving to be quite incompetent and wants to take off afternoons to play Polo too often.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      We need to have fewer people in college. If you can't finish, you shouldn't go at all - you'd be better off getting a job and gaining experience instead of debt.

    3. Re:we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      We need to have fewer people in college. If you can't finish, you shouldn't go at all - you'd be better off getting a job and gaining experience instead of debt.

      Who is to say which college graduate will be the one to start a business and employ people? I really do enjoy these discussions. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's poverty.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re:we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      They have to limit demand somehow and granting admission based on merit is just silly.

    5. Re:we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Who is to say which college graduate will be the one to start a business and employ people?

      As a first approximation? The smart ones. Intelligence is real. Everyone knows this instinctively. Of course there are skill subsets, but broadly speaking intelligence makes any skill you have better: smart salesmen are much better salesmen than dumb ones, even if a programmer with a high IQ is worse at sales than a dumb salesman who has schmoozing ability.

    6. Re:we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The percentage of the population with an undergrad has steadily increased over the last 70 years. It is currently at an all time high.

    7. Re:we need get away from the 4 year for all idea by aralin · · Score: 1

      Czech model is even better. You don't need to pass everyone through a generic high school. There is a mandatory K9 education for everyone, then you split to Gymnasium (University prep), Industrial school (Technical College prep with practical skills), Nursing and Economic schools (Nurses and Secretaries) and Vocational schools (2-4 years, specific manual job prep). Any 4 year school ends in state exam and you can use that to enter a University or Technical College, but you might not make it with extra year of prep when coming from one of the vocational schools.

      Also, thanks to spliting the Nerds to Gymnasiums (this is so ironic) and the Jocks to Vocational schools, you got almost zero bullying at the K9-K13 level.

      Also, the first year of univeristy, college, is generally rolled into the last year of the K13, so the Bachelor degree is 3 years and Masters degree 5 years total. But that makes it easier to switch to a different field in case you find the choice does not fit you in a year or two.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
  14. If a degree is the new high school diploma.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Then governments have no choice but to make it free and widely available to anyone on demand.

  15. Congress might delay? Good. by TheGavster · · Score: 1

    I think that a delay in congress approving this scheme as a factor in funding would be a good thing. I doubt that US News and World Report had their ranking system perfected in just a year; even if the executive branch hired the most brilliant minds (for which they have neither the budget nor the appeal) it would be impossible to come up with a system reliable enough to guide billions of dollars in taxpayer subsidy. By all means, come up with a system, publish the results each year, and see how it works. Refine it over time, and maybe 10 or 15 years in the future, if it is respected by students and employers as a metric of educational quality, start to apply it to funding decisions.

    Any amount of development time might not be enough though: like any channel for federal funding, this thing is going to get turned into a political tool. What starts as a system to determine if an education will give you a good start in your chosen field will rapidly devolve into a contest for which colleges have the most puritanical health centers or are located in the home state of a ranking member of the controlling committee.

    --
    "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
  16. His solution isn't one by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    College costs are due to the easy borrowing as a perverse consequence of trying to make college easier for people to afford. As with a car loan, nobody wants to pay $2000 for a fancy radio, but an extra $35/month, sign me up!

    8% a year? No problem...on my loan! Sign me up!

    The way to reign this in is to deny government backing for cheap loans to any college that increases costs more than 2% this year. And keep that up for 10 years to drag relative costs back down vs. inflation.

    All these loudmouths in charge of colleges who throw up their hands and say hey don't know why, the liars will sort things out quickly.

    Perverse incentives are perverse.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:His solution isn't one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think everyone gets this wrong. Any college can charge $1,000,000 in tuition and just give financial aid and loans to all students. There is no difference for 99% of students. Correlation does not imply causality-- if the feds stopped guaranteeing loans altogether, what is the incentive to reduce tuition when you just give financial aid anyway?

    2. Re:His solution isn't one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, the solution is to fully fund public college education (first diploma or degree, up to BS/BA) through tax dollars.. make such an education a right for academically qualified students, not a privilege for those who can afford it...

      fund the education similarly to current k-12 public schools.. for out of state students, the funds come from the student's home state. the amount received by a school should be the same, across the board, and across the country, for each eligible student (e.g. ucla gets the same funding per student as timbuktu community college) for foreign students, they pay the at least the FULL cost plus stringent visa requirements and quotas to even study in this country, plus are lowest priority for admission (any qualified citizen gets 'first dibbs' for a spot over any foreigner).

      students who are not academically eligible for 4 year degree can opt for a public trade or vocational diploma program instead. those who choose to go to a private school (of any kind, for profit or non profit, secular or not) can still do so, but no public funding, assistance or government backed loans are to be provided (which would curb rising costs at those institutions, which also now have to compete with 'free' public education).

      the entire country benefits from an educated and trained workforce, and an educated voter base, there's no reason why publicly funded education stops at grade 12 in this day and age.

  17. the only way to make college more affordable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    is to do away with grants and to make loans more difficult to obtain.

    1. Re:the only way to make college more affordable by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

      There is absolutely no shortage of wealthy foreign students who will happily pay full rate for a US education so they can take it back to their own country and make it more competitive than the United States in the global economy.

  18. Yeah, dont' go. by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 0

    Yeah just don't go.Financially, it makes absolutely no sense. You're in wage competition with people who have zero debt from other nations. Guess who wins? Your ,student loans are 100% unbankruptable and the price for college is set by the amount of money lenders will lend, which is basically everything you'll earn over your lifetime, since, as I said, the debt is unbankruptable.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/ripping-off-young-america-the-college-loan-scandal-20130815

    Universities take that money and hire another level of administrators, give them all raises, build golden palaces for them to work in, build 5 star shopping malls / food courts, erect modernist pieces of architecture to house privately run research facilities and of course spend lavishly on their athletic programs , including more state of the art construction , high six digit salaries for everyone etc. etc.

    This is what your student loans pay for. This is what the lifetime of debt you pay for goes to fund. This is the system the US has lying in wait for people who are, as Matthew Tabbi put it, people who are barely not children. An amount of debt that will push you into a life of literal indentured servitude before you even start of f in life.

    http://www.freep.com/article/20130822/BLOG25/308220135/student-loans-debt-rolling-stone

    This is purely predatory and the fact that the predation is by seasoned adults who understand the system and upon naive children who have been told since birth by the people they trust the most, most recently by Obama himself , that "college is the best investment you can make." , the fact that that is the predator -prey relationship says everything you need to know about higher education in America and America itself. From the housing crisis to the student loan bubble to the credit default swap to the savings and loans bailouts, it's a series of traps into which the naive are lured and pushed for the benefit of the sophisticated, the rule writers, the rich.

    Don't go. You'll have incredible freedom. There is nothing at university you'll learn that you can't learn for free online. You and your friends can make your own way in the world if you don't have crushing debt waiting to seize everything every time you get ahead even a little. If you're not forcibly chained to an slave oar of a job that takes everything you have to give and leaves you with nothing to put into your own life at the end of the day.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2013/8/20/matt_taibbi_us_student_loan_bubble

    There are a million ways for young people to arrange themselves in this world , a million ways waiting to be invented discovered, tried and iterated upon in order to gain knowledge, have access to resources, advance themselves and establish their market value that don't involve college and the unbankruptable crushing debt. Just do it. Everyone. Just invent it. Just try it. No opportunity is passing you by by trying until you get it right. You have nothing to lose. Nothing at all.

    1. Re:Yeah, dont' go. by gander666 · · Score: 1

      There is a good article on this in the latest edition of The Baffler (sorry, that article is not available online). It is a pretty edgy takedown of the higher education system, and the needed fall

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
    2. Re: Yeah, dont' go. by alen · · Score: 1

      And whiny students want new dorms with no roommates, private bathrooms, all kinds of counselors to talk to and make sure they are ok

      The people I know who went to college in the 70's and 80's lived in the worst slums and worked almost full time to pay for school. Or they went to their state school or community college for the first two years, lived with mommy to save money and for the last two years transferred to a good school after getting that 3.9 GPa that first two years. Or got a degree from an average school with a top notch GPa and spent a lot of money on an Ivy League graduate degree

    3. Re: Yeah, dont' go. by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Oh God shutup. The new students just want what their parents got, or maybe something a little better. It's the schools dealing with the larger influx of students who have to build new dorms to house all new students (guess what, the population grew, big surprise, which means the percentage of people going to college grew as well). Many of these kids are not getting a full-ride, they have scholarships (full or partial), grants, or loans.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
  19. Hmmm, let me think about it... by lasermike026 · · Score: 0

    Who the fuck cares?!?

  20. Every goes to college to get ahead of everyone by TiggertheMad · · Score: 1

    That depends on what you are teaching. College has changed from 'The halls of higher learning' to the thing that every American HS school does because that is what you do to get ahead in life. For the majority of college students (who are kinda just idiots, and don't really need 4 years of college), the GP post is really the number that matters.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
    1. Re:Every goes to college to get ahead of everyone by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      College has changed from 'The halls of higher learning' to the thing that every American HS school does because that is what you do to get ahead in life.

      The irony being that because every high school student does it, they cannot, by definition, get ahead, because "ahead" is inherently relative.

      One major problem is that our public K-12 system has completely failed to keep up with the times. Instead of teaching useful skills, it continues to teach the same things it did before, and at approximately the same pace. We still spend roughly an entire year teaching multiplication even though computers have advanced civilization to the point that no human being has needed to do multiplication in their heads or on paper for decades. Why are we wasting all that time? Spend a single 6-week period on the basics, explain what it means, how it is useful, then move on.

      And we delay all of the interesting stuff so that by the time the kids are exposed to it, their brains are too hard-wired to learn it effectively. We should start teaching at least the basic fundamentals of algebra by first or second grade. Those of us who grew up learning programming at a young age know that this is doable. I remember getting into algebra and saying, "Oh. This is easy. I've been doing this for more than half a decade." If everyone had been given the opportunity to learn those concepts earlier (as opposed to just the few of us who taught ourselves how to program in first grade), high school could have been closer to what college is, and college wouldn't be necessary for most people.

      Instead, we squander the first 13 years of education, wasting most of them on archaic and antiquated learning that does not serve students well, while delaying all of the interesting and fun stuff until college. Is it any wonder, then, that everyone wants to go to college, or that many people spend years grazing from major to major, exploring all of the possibilities denied to them in their pre-college years?

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  21. He's at it again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you can't change the conditions, just change the definitions.

  22. Lowest score wins! by maciarc · · Score: 1

    Have the NSA count the number of misspelled words in their e-mails.

  23. Translation: Polls sagging, rev-up the dumb kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama has proof (in the form of his election and subsequent reelection) that young voters are stupid enough to support his policies because they lack the maturity to consider the second- and third-order effects of said policies. His poll numbers are low, he has borrowed and spent FAR more money in his time in office than any previous president, his signature policy (Obamacare) is such a mess he is having to delay implementation of major parts until after next year's congressional elections (so voters don't feel the full pain in time to inform their votes) and his party is worried about the looming congressional elections. His answer? Get back on the campaign trail! Get the college kids all worked-up about college costs and debts! (they're too dumb to notice that federal interference in college loans is what CAUSES the tuition inflation AND that his failed economic policies have created an economy where those degrees are less likely to result in a job)

    Federal student loans have made it so huge numbers of kids (who, being young, lack the life experience to fully understand the impact of loan payments) think they can "afford" to pay high prices to pursue ANY degree and expensive school which, in-turn, allows colleges to raise their prices to whatever the market will bear. College tuition inflation has become completely disconnected from the rest of the economy. Unfortunately for these young students, student loans are some of the only debts that CANNOT be discharged through bankruptcy (probably NOT emphasized in all the glossy brochures). The sad truth is that the actual costs of college have not risen significantly at most schools (most have owned the same land and buildings for decades and have essentially the same staff costs) and many are sitting on such enormous piles of cash (like Harvard and Yale) that they do not even need to charge tuition to stay profitable... but there's free federal student aid money to be harvested! Time to recruit more students and raise tuition!

  24. I hope it accounts for Winston-Salem by erroneus · · Score: 1

    Stories like these sicken me when it comes to how they are effectively ignored and swept under the rug. This case was criminally prosecuted only because there was a lot of money involved and it was students and not the staff.

    If people are going to spend ridiculously high costs for schooling, they need to know that it's not going to support criminals like those at Winston-Salem.

  25. Then comes the arms race... by Darkness404 · · Score: 2

    Since a degree is primarily a qualification, its importance lies in its scarcity. It used to be since many people didn't finish high school, a high school diploma had meaning, it was a qualification. Well, then it was decided that -everyone- should have a high school diploma and curriculum gets dumbed down to the point that any person not in a vegetative state can easily obtain a high school diploma, it stops being a qualification. So naturally people looked for the next higher qualification, a college degree, when this idea that everyone should have a college degree (which, believe me is certainly taking hold) the classes start to get dumber and dumber and suddenly a college degree stops being a qualification. Soon employers are looking for your master's degree...

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:Then comes the arms race... by mkiwi · · Score: 1

      Well, then it was decided that -everyone- should have a high school diploma and curriculum gets dumbed down to the point that any person not in a vegetative state can easily obtain a high school diploma...

      If you are in a vegetative state during high school, you can still get a diploma, you'll just be in the bottom half of your class. Hell, the pot heads on the debate team will have a higher class rank, assuming you are actually a vegetable.

      Source: (Personal experience, and no, that's not just a pun on my user name)
      Pedants: I know a "kiwi" is not a vegetable, but try to have some fun with language once in awhile.

    2. Re:Then comes the arms race... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      If you are in a vegetative state during high school, you can still get a diploma, you'll just be in the bottom half of your class.

      Tell that to my GED.

      I showed up most days to HS, quit caring mid-way through, kept attending, kept getting failing grades in classes I didn't care about. Week after my class graduated (without me clearly) I went and did the GED test, passed and moved on (BS, MS, lucrative job).

      For years I've heard about kids being passed through the system as you describe... and I'm forced to laugh as there was none of that at my HS.

    3. Re:Then comes the arms race... by jpublic · · Score: 0

      All it takes to pass is a tiny bit of motivation; all you have to do is memorize facts and spew them all back on worthless tests and exams. Now, if you stopped caring completely (and I can't blame anyone who would)...

    4. Re:Then comes the arms race... by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      And if businesses could just IQ test potential employees, you wouldn't need any of this.

    5. Re:Then comes the arms race... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bull - 1)IQ tests don't really show anything but how well you can take the test and 2)most businesses don't want smart people, they want people can put up with beauraracy and idiocy just like getting through college.

    6. Re:Then comes the arms race... by cptnapalm · · Score: 1

      I read something a ways back which pointed out that this used to be the case. Then the Supreme Court decided IQ tests were the work of the devil. Since companies don't want to waste time on morons, they began requiring a BS/BA as a stand in for an IQ test.

    7. Re:Then comes the arms race... by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Yep.

    8. Re:Then comes the arms race... by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      Just because a college education is free to the student doesn't mean that admission standards have to be lowered.

  26. About time the gov. pushed back by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    Schools have been milking students via government loans for decades now.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:About time the gov. pushed back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The funny thing about all those state schools is that the state is supposed to fund them. When the states started axing funding to their universities 30 years ago, the universities had to find the money somewhere and with every cut tuition increased. So now we have "state" universities that get 10% of their budget covered by the state government and unaffordable tuition.

  27. From a European perspective by Werrismys · · Score: 2

    The proposotion sounds like a mask for lowering the standards. Sweden is already in this path. Results droop and they cannot admit the real reason because of politics. So the culprit must be the system. Everyone suffers and the esteem of educational institutions drop when they MUST take and pass students of ... let's say, lesser capabilities, in name of multiculturalism. USA is fast becoming a social democratic european style hellhole.

    --
    'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
  28. MFA's in Lesbian puppet theater: Furious! by gelfling · · Score: 2

    And a whole generation of unpaid bloggers for Huffington Post and Salon rise up........and take the bus to the Temp Agency.

  29. Well... by FixedDice · · Score: 1

    I go to a local community college. Every semester the cost per semester hour has risen for the past two years. The only thing I see improved for the school is just the eye candy. The eye candy being upgrades to campus buildings and grounds. The same teachers are there and the curriculum continues to be watered down spoon-fed academics. The quality of education needs to be fixed. Not some kind of rating system.

  30. Throwing money at affordable schools seems... by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

    ...as silly as subsidizing successful businesses. How is a start-up supposed to displace the incumbents if the incumbents have access to government funds that can make them more affordable for students? In this case, maybe it's not a start-up, so much as a school that has simply turned things around. They'd face the same issue.

    1. Re:Throwing money at affordable schools seems... by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      It's providing the WRONG incentive. we should hold universities accountable for the QUALITY of their educational value, not for the economy of cost. I'd rather spend good money to be taught useful things than to save a little money and understand less about the world. Nevermind the practicality (earnings potential) of many majors (philosophy, the arts, etc).

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    2. Re:Throwing money at affordable schools seems... by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      Totally. Now define quality in quantifiable terms.

  31. Private Email by Ed+The+Meek · · Score: 1

    I wonder if Obama will team up with the NSA on this? Maybe use the private emails of college professors to help develop the rankings...

  32. Graduation rates = lowered standards by morinpatmorin · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Tying funding to graduation rates is a bad idea. It leads to one (or both) of two things:
    1. 1. extremely high entrance requirements that ensure any student who gets in has what it takes to get through the program, or
    2. 2. lowering standards so that every student (no matter how bad they are) makes it through the program.

    Option 1 leaves out students who are plenty smart, but just goofed around in high school. Option 2 makes university degrees worthless.

    1. Re:Graduation rates = lowered standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fully understand your fears, and share them in many regards, but the 2 outcomes are a bit limited. While the "College" conversation is consumed with the "Traditional" 4-Year college experience, the reality is that the majority of Americans will attend one of the 1,200+ Community Colleges. Community Colleges are "Open Access" by definition so they cannot limit who gets in, and lowering standards is not acceptable either. That is why the current Community College graduation rate is something like 20% and has been for a long time. It is true that many students are not ready to do college level work, but around 2/3 of the reasons students don't make it in college are "non-cognitive" factors, like funding, social support, childcare, transportation, housing, work, ...life happens. The Community Colleges also represent far more minority students, and students at the lowest levels of socio-economic status.

      Our best bet for "Graduating" more students is to tackle the non-cognitive factors and keep the students we already have. We could not increase enrollment a bit, nor need to lower academic standards, if we could take care of things like funding, childcare...etc. And we would see dramatic shifts in graduation rates.

  33. who's footing the bill by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    Small government repubtards: government is bad always. Hmm, if the government is already paying towards peoples education shouldn't they at least be able to base their loans on affordability or results (percentage of grads employed in their field, percentage making larger than median wage etc)? Somehow it is better to keep things the way they are then to risk actually considering whether or not to subsidize an expensive basket weaving program.

    1. Re:who's footing the bill by Onos · · Score: 1

      Or, an even better idea: Stop subsidizing it.

    2. Re:who's footing the bill by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      True. If you are going to subsidize you can't have blinders on though.

  34. The obvious reasons... by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Informative

    First of all, you're comparing an Australian government propaganda site--excuse me--an Australian government site that's sole purpose is to show off what a good idea it is to come to Australia to study to a list of "topuniversities." There's a difference.

    Secondly, an Australian bachelors degree is only three years versus four for the US. From my admittedly limited experience, Australian degrees tend to be more trade-oriented than most traditional US universities, so again, the difference is probably not as bleak as you make it out to be.

    Finally, correct me if I'm wrong, but the majority of Australian universities are public and heavily subsidized (so again, compare apples to apples, publics to publics). Australian professor salaries are also lower, and Australian professorships are more akin to civilian servant positions. Professors in the US--august representatives of the academy--are basically their own social/political/economic class.

    The best--or most expensive, depending on your take!--universities in the US probably cost in toto about 60k a year right. There are a LOT of families that can afford that without dipping into savings and without blinking an eye. The last figures I saw are that around 20% of all American families make 100k or more a year. The most expensive colleges are still really expensive, but there is a HUGE diversity of colleges in the US from junior colleges and community colleges, to small liberals arts, to big state publics, to privates research institutions, etc. Given the tremendous wealth in the US and the availability of cheap, easy to get government money, why NOT raise tuition? With very few exceptions (see Antioch), colleges and universities hardly ever go out of business or have trouble filling seats.

    1. Re:The obvious reasons... by lachlan76 · · Score: 2

      A degree here is nominally three years, but honours requires an extra year and a substantial project, which most people take up (this might not be the case outside of maths). Engineering is always four years; essentially one has to do the same work whether or not they receive honours.

      I can't speak for the trade-oriented claim, as I study in a research-heavy university. However, one isn't forced to take courses unrelated to their degree as in the US, which might be what you allude to. There isn't anything stopping you from spending an extra year to get a second degree mixed in, though.

      Personally, I like the fact that our system is more egalitarian---unless one chooses to move interstate and so cannot live at home, cost is not a factor. The reality is that everyone puts the top universities in their state first, so the better universities can pick off the top students. But then again, in the US those at the very top will end up in a big university with large amounts of funding, so one might argue either way.

    2. Re:The obvious reasons... by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      I absolutely agree with you assessment that the Australian educational system is more egalitarian. I think that's probably a good thing.

      When I said "trade-oriented" I was indeed referring to how you generally pick your degree immediately at Australian universities and don't take classes outside of your degree. Perhaps my descriptor was a bit off there. It is, however, a very different experience than the average person in a US college/university. I was a computer science and history double major, and took a handful of linguistics classes on the side.

      My sister is currently attending Adelaide and her uni experience has been much more focused.

      You're absolutely right that I should have mentioned the residential nature of US colleges in comparison to Australia. I've heard school administrators claim that residences are one of the big cost drivers at universities, though I am skeptical of this claim.

    3. Re:The obvious reasons... by lachlan76 · · Score: 1

      Small world---I'm a postgrad at Adelaide.

      As far as I know, most Commonwealth countries will run their universities that way. If you spend time on other things, you get a separate degree. I studied EEE and pure maths, which turned it into a five-year degree as in the US. I was originally unsure as to whether you meant that or that the education was more practical than theoretical.

      The need for residential accommodation in the US is always going to be there because of the population distribution. Things are a bit different here in that most of the population live in the capital cities; I've only known one person who has done an undergraduate degree outside of Adelaide.

  35. Subsidies are not difficult to understand. by dtmancom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Before grants and guaranteed college loans, colleges could only charge what the students could afford. I myself graduated from a big 4-year state college in the 80's for a total cost of $21k, and I was an on-campus student.

    Now we have grants and the ability to take out tens of thousands of dollars... per year... for tuition. All an adult student has to do is sign his or her name, and it is like free unlimited money for all the education you can eat.

    How can anyone be confused by the idea that colleges will adjust their cost by the amount their customers can afford to pay? This is econ 101, here. When these stupid adult children can afford $50k to get their art history degree, why do you think a college won't increase their price to accommodate the sucker windfall?

    Want to watch the price of college plummet? Remove all loans. We'll return to the days of "only the rich can afford college/not fair!", but at least the stupid will not be graduating under a mountain of debt from which they will never be free. The truly academically gifted and motivated will get scholarships no matter how poor they are.

    1. Re:Subsidies are not difficult to understand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the 1980s the states spent roughly 3x as much per student at state universities compared to now. The problem isn't art history majors* it's that the heavy subsidy that you received from the government is no longer there.

      * what the hell is the fascination with art history majors? According to the NCSE they account for less than 0.2% of all college students.

  36. When you go $1/4M in debt ... it does. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd agree, except that you can now easily get a better education by trying online than most kids get in college. Given that the higher education industry is all about raping the kids through federal loans, well, yeah, it's only about ROI.

  37. Troll?! by Moridineas · · Score: 1

    Troll?! Seriously, wtf is going on with moderation here... I thought this was one of the least trollish things I've ever posted! :p

  38. Here's a simple plan by kriston · · Score: 1

    Here's a simple and proven plan to follow until this gets implemented.

    1) Find out what state you live in. This should be easy.

    2) Apply to all the state schools with the programs you need and pick one with the best facilities.

    3) Graduate with little or no college debt.

    4) Get the same and better jobs than your heavily indebted "ivy league" educated colleagues.

    5) Profit!!

    --

    Kriston

  39. Trap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He is creating a school rating list of affordability so he can close them. No more student debt, since only those who already have the money will be able to pay it. Its called a different approach.

  40. Riiight... by sgtrock · · Score: 1

    And all those new buildings and stadiums going up at the cost of hundreds of millions of dollars (each!) has nothing to do with rising costs. Nope, not at all.

    1. Re:Riiight... by DesertJazz · · Score: 1

      Some of those stadiums actually generate more than enough revenue to fund those programs and more... Not that I think money should be wasted, but in those larger state schools I have no doubt they pay for themselves within ten years or less.

    2. Re:Riiight... by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      Money spent on bread and circuses it rarely perceived as being wasted.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  41. cut down some of filler classes and get rid of old by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    cut down some of filler classes and get rid of old forced classes that are just there to keep departments in place.

  42. All colleges? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this include the electoral college?

  43. Most probable measure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Probably it will be something like this:
    College has more than 50% black students -> good and progresive, has fair entry exams
    It has more whiteys than niggas -> bad and full of hate and discrimination

    Or at least his "research" will lead to such conclusions being later reported by media over and over again until you believe this.

  44. support loosers, punish winners = socialism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, support idiots for whom "college just didn't wwork out". Punish those who succeeded. Socialism ftw.

  45. Meanwhile, finland goes the opposite route by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finland having success by eliminating political micromanagement from education http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html

  46. sports, buildings and the board salaries by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 1

    Universities and Colleges spend insane amounts of money on real estate because they are often in "prime areas". They spend a lot on salaries for their boards, usually those people get way better payment than the teachers and professors get. They spend a lot of money on the sports teams and their accommodations, trainers and such. Also, they spend a lot of money on maintaining that name aka "promotion". There are exceptions to that, but in general, those colleges and universities are considered "second grade" and people tend to want to spend more money on a degree from a highly rated college/university. If a potential employer has a choice of four candidates and three of them come from MIT, Carnegy-Mellon and Princeton while the 4th one comes from Tulane (Louisiana), guess which one won't get invited for an interview? Once you are on the short list for "good universities" you can charge more, spend the money on publicity and your own salary and keep the mechanism working. Thats how the mechanism works.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
  47. Extremely simple solution by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Step 1) Compare the number of students entering the school vs. the number of students graduating school. The higher the percentage, the lower the academic requirements of the school. To suggest that the academics of the school are so damn good that they can overcome the overwhelming odds that students will go nuts the second they are free from control by their parents is nonsense. If too many students are dropping out, the students are passing even though they're generally drunk.

    Step 2) Evaluate the sports program. If the sports program is really good, it's less likely the academic program will be as good. It means the administration is less focused on academics and more focused on what they "Think Really Counts"

    ***** Most important ******
    Step 3) Evaluate the number of students graduating the school during hard economic times and manage to get jobs that actually can cover the cost of their student debt. If a school knowingly admits a student who needs to borrow 50% or more of the money required to gain a degree in a career that DOES NOT offer a pay scale following graduation to cover the cost of the loan, the school should be declared predatory.

    As an example, if only 10-20% of university graduates from a law school are likely to gain employment as lawyers, it means that the chances of defaulting on a student loan is high. It is then necessary to evaluate the most likely career path for a law school graduate that can't work as a lawyer and identify the amount of money that career is likely to pay. Then identify the amount the student can afford to repay.

    Another example is giving a kid from a lower-middle-class home a loan to pay $150,000 for 4 years to become a pianist from Julliard. The student has about 0.5% chance of gaining a career playing piano in a concert hall. The student has a 10% chance of gaining employment as a music teacher in an elementary school. This loan should be denied.

    Another example would be a student studying to become a school teacher. School teachers will earn an average of $75K a year after earning tenure. They are almost 100% guaranteed to be stable and responsible regarding loan payments. Loan then up to $125,000 for their education to be paid over a period of 25 years at national mortgage rates.

  48. Measure ROI for congressional seats. by trout007 · · Score: 1

    It would be interesting to see what each candidate spends on getting elected vs the increase in wealth for them and friends/family 5 and 10 years after election.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  49. Lame duck. by Karmashock · · Score: 2

    At this point, he's got such a huge back log of other things and such a huge investment in other things that reforming higher education is really not something anyone is going to cooperate on. As in anything, there are entrenched interests.

    The president should spend what time he has left finishing the things he's started. Very little new he attempts at his point will be accepted or catch on.

    The first term is where you push these things. And the second term is where you cement them. Well.... finish what you've started and stop creating new programs and ideas for entirely unrelated issues that in most cases are no great matter.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  50. Administrative/bureacracy costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bureaucracy has exploded at universities. The professors, assistant professors, and assistants aren't getting high salaries, but the administrators certainly do. This is just supposition on my part, and I don't have hard data

    I wonder what we'd find if we look at the administrative structure of the same universities 20 years ago and today, accounting for any growth in student population.

  51. Tenure by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    That's the golden word in all of your support. Tenure.

    That is why they do those long hours, to secure tenure. You know, the ability to lay back and not have to worry about the future - or actually work.

    We all know people in IT who worked just as hard and even longer than the proto-profs and do not have tenure.

    My heart does not bleed. The salaries the profs draw are anything but terrible. Hyperbole for teachers salaries is like the race card; old and unimpressive anymore.

    1. Re:Tenure by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I see this come up, but I can't say I've met many lazy professors just coasting on tenure. By the time they've done their undergrad, graduate work, post-doc and then scrambled through years of associate professorship to get tenure, they're either in the habit of working pretty hard or really like what they do. It seems like a pretty rare lazy individual ready to commit 10 - 20 years of really hard work for a supposed "easy life" at the end of that line. If you're really up for burning out and fading away, you could do better going the Wall Street or lawyer route, make more along the way, and probably retire earlier.

      Not to say there aren't profs who burn out or coast once it's available to them, and my experience could be skewed somehow, but tenure never seemed like a particularly good deal to me.

  52. A modest proposal for a enhanched rating system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    quality is inversely proportional to the number of black students...

  53. Great way to control dissent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So if a college doesn't toe the party line? Their ratings mysteriously drop and they lose their cut of the government cheese.

  54. College costs by odinjurkowski · · Score: 0

    While there are certainly places where savings could be made on college campuses to offset tuition increases we're talking about some pretty small numbers. Most public universities run a pretty lean ship and budgets are tight. What is the main reason college costs have gone up? Reduced funding from states. When I got hired at my midwest midsize public university just over a decade ago 2/3 of our funding came from the state and 1/3 from tuition. It has now flipped, with 1/3 coming from the state and 2/3 coming from students. Overall tuition has barely budged, but the amount paid is coming out of student pockets instead of from state taxes. And faculty and staff are not getting rich off of this. We have had little to no raises over the past decade. In fact, factor in inflation and we are paid less. And those beautiful campuses and new buildings and recreational centers? Often, like ours, these are student fee funded. Students voted to approve the bonds to build these facilities by approving a small student fee similar to a low cost gym membership. Not a penny of tuition goes towards any of this. Full time faculty positions have held steady or dropped, with more and more cheaper paid adjuncts taking up additional classes to compensate for increased enrollments. Department budgets have not increased a penny in the past decade. Everyone is holding to flat or reduced spending. Academia is not making it big off of students. It's all down to how you want to pay for higher education, through taxes or your own pocket book. Public universities are slowly being privatized because of reduced funding from the states. The republican mantra of lower and lower taxes only means that you will pay more and more for what were once public services.

    1. Re:College costs by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      How exactly do you know Universities run a lean ship? Where's the audit?

    2. Re:College costs by odinjurkowski · · Score: 0

      I'm not a financial officer so I may not see it all, but from my perspective I see how our budget lines have been held flat or reduced over the past decade. I see that we track every single penny, I see how we scrimp on everything. There are no luxuries, there are no bonuses like in industry, there are no leftover funds, there is no profit going to anyone. So I wanted a desk to stand at while I work and built that at home with my own money and brought it to my office because we can't justify replacing my old desk for a new one. We have potluck lunches from time-to-time instead of having the dept buy food. Yes, it could be worse, but we are definitely not living in luxury.

  55. Tired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tired of this bullshit.

  56. Just stop by gr8_phk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Under Obama's proposal, students attending highly rated schools could receive larger grants and more affordable loans.

    So students going to lesser schools will be fucked with less affordable loans? WTF?

    How about the government just STOP guaranteeing student loans (which can't even be discharged in bankruptcy). Get the fuck out of the system, it's the loan program that has driven up tuition rates for 25 years. When I went there were several students who worked to pay their own way. As hard as that seems to do back then, it must be nearly impossible today, so they get loans and then get fucked for life. Same thing happened with subsidized housing, all that did is drive up home prices to the point of a bubble that crippled the economy for years. Just fucking stop meddling.

    1. Re:Just stop by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      LMOL no Potsy the Federal government did not subsidize housing. Credit Default Swaps caused the economic collapse in 2008. Rampant speculation by investors in the housing market fueled mortgage back securities. Theses securities were ticking time bombs.

  57. Inside Out by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    This idea is upside down, inside out and down right perverted. The very notion that the percentage that graduate indicates quality is absurd. I really hate to say it but the best educations come from schools with huge drop out rates and lots of suicides. When an academic environment is so demanding that even some high quality students can not make it you have a school that will produce great geniuses. They may come out a bit odd but they will be brilliant and exactly the type of people that history books admire.
                    Compounding this error is the false notion that employment should be a goal of education. Lord Byron, Leonardo, Mozart or Newton were not trained to make a living. Poe starved. Money is not a concern in education. For parents who want their kids to make a living just send them to trade schools or teach them how to repair plumbing. Keep these folks out of college as they do not belong there.
                      Make note that schools with unusual academic demands as well as strict honor codes produce wonderful scholars.

    1. Re:Inside Out by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Go home moron. FYI Mozart died a pauper and he had benefactors during his life to enable him to compose music.

    2. Re:Inside Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really hate to say it but the best educations come from schools with huge drop out rates and lots of suicides. When an academic environment is so demanding that even some high quality students can not make it you have a school that will produce great geniuses.

      All we have to do to insure this is to implement a publish or perish system. By creating a system that rewards research over teaching, we ensure that faculty will suck at teaching. The students will have to teach themselves, or rely on the few competent instructors. That's a great idea. Why hasn't it been tried?

      Oh, wait ...

  58. Really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy has nothing better to worry about?

  59. BINGO - Government facilitated high education cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After causing the problem, (by making education money very easy to get) then government takes credit in fixing it.

  60. Another tool to punish political enemies by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1

    This is a very dangerous direction and is another tool that Obama can use to punish his political enemies as he has wielded throughout his time in office. A likely scenario is if a college publishes studies that establishes facts that conflict with political agendas, they could find their federal aid withheld like the IRS has been doing with conservative groups. The potential for abuse is too great and the consequences too disastrous. Obama needs to stop his campaign attack mode since taking office, start governing with all branches, and start staffing his cabinet with qualified candidates who listen to all sides and not political rewardees who contributed to his campaign.

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
  61. Or better yet, Obama should kill himself. by shiftless · · Score: 1

    The new ratings system, which the president wants implemented before the 2015 school year, would evaluate colleges on a series of measures, including average tuition and student loan debt, graduation rates, and the average earnings of graduates. Obama is also seeking legislation to link the new ratings system to the way federal financial aid is awarded, with students attending highly-rated schools receiving larger grants and more affordable student loans.

    Sounds great, right? Except Satan is in the details. The whole purpose of this program is to bring colleges and universities even closer to the bosom of Uncle Sam, while the educated idiots think they are getting a great deal.

    First step in their master plan was to raise tuition rates through the roof, which was easily achieved by spreading the "everyone MUST go to college meme", then giving away "free" government money to anyone and everyone who wants to go, to study 18th century Russian poetry or whatever bullshit fairy tale dream they want to pursue. This has been successful, as most ordinary people can no longer afford to go to college without this government "aid." Now the next stage of their plan is to make sure this government "aid" only goes to the "right" people. Those institutions which "toe the line" and do what the government tells them to do, and preach whatever lies that the government demands they preach, and are successful in raising their kids up to be good little obedient Nazis and willing corporate slaves, will be the ones which receive higher ratings and more money. On the other hand any educational institution which has the nerve to speak out against the government will find themselves with poor ratings, no money, and thus no students.

    So OUR tax dollars go to support the government-friendly ass kissing institutions, and to help those kids who are picked and chosen by the elites to be accepted there, while little to none of it goes to those who teach kids to be independent, critical thinkers, to kids who are not part of the elite, or to those whose families are political enemies of the corrupt fascists in D.C. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer....by design.

    Yet another SCAM from the great Liar In Chief....and leagues of 20 year old useful idiots scream in ecstasy about how wonderful it all is and what a great visionary Obomber is. They begged for slavery, and slavery is exactly what they will get. Good for them.

  62. Seriously? $24k a year? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So around 20% of American families make $92k or more a year (2005 statistics from Census Bureau via Wikipedia). That's before taxes. AFTER taxes (assume earnings of $100k, assume $75k is taxable, total of about $16k in federal taxes, be generous and assume no state taxes, balance it out by assuming no tax credits) you're probably looking at $84k actual income for the year. Subtract $60k in tuition for one child. You're telling me that this hypothetical couple (since the kid is off at school most of the time) with $100k a year salary on paper will be able to live off $26k a year "without dipping into savings and without blinking an eye"? Seriously? That's just over $2000 a month to cover two people's worth of rent/mortage, food, utilities, insurance, health care, transportation, clothing, and supporting the child while school is not in session, not even considering emergencies and entertainment like internet access and smart phones. There would be some serious eye blinking and probably savings dipping in MY house.

  63. BS to that by Araes · · Score: 1

    Linked is the average tuition rise over the last five years for all 50 states. In most cases, the rise is 20-30%. In the extreme upper end, the rise is nearly 80% (I'm looking at you Arizona...). http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms/3-19-13sfp-f3.jpg This clearly outpaces cost of living growth over the last five years.

    The next link is the growth in administrative costs for one example, the University of California system, which has massively ballooned over the last several decades. http://californiareview.net/2011/08/24/graph-of-uc-administrative-growth/ This is not an isolated phenomenon. While professor salaries and direct education expenses have stayed relatively flat over the last few decades (or tracked inflation in some cases), the number of, and salaries provided to, administrative positions have dramatically increased across the board at most institutions (public or private).

    For further example, look at total compensation for the top university executives across the US from 2011-2012. We are compensating many university execs in excess of $500,000 a year (some over $2 mil). http://old.post-gazette.com/images5/20130513presidential_pay691.png At many state schools, with limited external funding, and tuition rise limited by law, we're still paying execs $3-400,000. What value do these people add that is worth $300,000 - $2 million?

    1. Re:BS to that by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The UC system is a freaking train wreck. I'm deliberately ignoring UC and a handful of other ostensibly high-prestige school systems.

      To give a counterexample, the university where I did my undergrad degree keeps combining programs and making administrators go back to teaching, because then they can cut out the adjunct instructors that would otherwise have been needed to cover the administrators' reduced course load.

      You're right that the people at the top are getting paid too much in many cases. In large part, this is caused by poor decision-making by the people who choose them. Instead of hiring from within, some universities try to poach their presidents and chancellors from other universities or companies, resulting in an ever-escalating pay scale and ever-decreasing levels of loyalty to the institution. Worse, it leads to ever-decreasing levels of competence; they know they're just using the school as a stepping stone to a bigger school, so they don't have to care about the fallout from their poor decisions.

      If you want to choose a good university that isn't overcharging you, ask them where they got their chancellor. If he or she is a former professor at that university, go to that school. This is true for many reasons, but the biggest reason is that they have loyalty to the university and pride in it. They're not doing it for the money, but because they really want the university to be the best it can be. Thus, those folks invariably do a much better job than outside candidates. Having seen many, many chancellors come and go, IMO, the strength of that correlation couldn't be clearer.

      And when you find out that they've hired somebody like Janet Napolitano... you know they've gone completely off the deep end, and the school's leadership will be an utter train wreck. Go somewhere else. Just saying.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  64. Re:Seriously? $24k a year? by Moridineas · · Score: 1

    2005 is quite out of date now, so I would take those numbers with some caution. The 2010/2011 numbers are a bit different.

    Since you either didn't read or misparsed the rest of my post, let me quote myself:

    There are a LOT of families that can afford that without dipping into savings and without blinking an eye. The last figures I saw are that around 20% of all American families make 100k or more a year. The most expensive colleges are still really expensive, but there is a HUGE diversity of colleges in the US from junior colleges and community colleges, to small liberals arts, to big state publics, to privates research institutions, etc.

    To summarize:

    1) There are a lot of families that can pay out 60k a year without blinking. This is true, and the number is certainly in the millions.
    2) Over 20% of Americans make more than 100k a year. As far as I can tell from the 2010/11 data, this looks true to me.
    3) You'll note I never said that a family making 100k a year could easily pay 60k a year (those are two discrete statements). Most families making 100k+ can easily afford some level of college.

    Though I would add, as a minor nit, that in many, many parts of the country, $2000 take home cash a month is enough to live on and be comfortable.

    To some degree, the horrifying student loan figures that are frequently bandied about are like the "average credit card balance" figures. After all, 1/3 of all students who go to college end with no debt at all! Only 10% end with 40k of debt, and fewer than 1% of all students end with 100k of debt. Source.

    I'm not going to argue that college isn't expensive nor that 100k debt isn't absolutely crushing. I will argue, however, about the causes and reasons, and to a lesser degree the magnitude. To repeat:

    Given the tremendous wealth in the US and the availability of cheap, easy to get government money, why NOT raise tuition? With very few exceptions (see Antioch), colleges and universities hardly ever go out of business or have trouble filling seats.

  65. Leave the teaching to the teachers. by TiggertheMad · · Score: 1

    We should start teaching at least the basic fundamentals of algebra by first or second grade. Those of us who grew up learning programming at a young age know that this is doable.

    Your sentiment is in the right place, but your suggestion is really bad. There is a lot of evidence suggestion that math isn't really great for younger kids. The ability of a first grader to work with abstract concepts limits their capacity to really comprehend what is going on. I have read articles by educators that suggest that math be pushed back several years until about 3rd grade. If you hit a young kid with a lot of boring abstract problems they will become bored and frustrated very quickly, and young kids don't have a long attention span.

    Ultimately, the best systems would be one where kids proceed at their own pace.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!