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Fixing Fukushima's Water Problem
Lasrick writes "This is an excellent analysis of exactly what the problems are at Fukushima, and what risks are posed to the public. From the article: 'The operator of Fukushima Daiichi, the Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco), has worked hard and has indeed contained most of the significant contamination carried by water used to cool the plant’s damaged reactor cores. Still, a series of events—including significant leakage from tanks built to hold radioactive water—has eroded public confidence. To address the water challenges, an improved water management plan should be created to deal with all levels of contamination, from slightly contaminated groundwater to highly radioactive cooling water flowing out of the damaged cores. This plan needs to build on the many good Tepco efforts of the past two years, but it should also incorporate new technologies that improve water cleanup performance and increase processing capacities. Importantly, this plan needs to include a new level of transparency for and outreach to the Japanese public, so citizens can understand and have confidence in the ultimate solution to the Fukushima water problem, which will almost certainly require the release of water—treated so it conforms to Japanese and international radioactivity standards—into the sea.'"
Just get on with it guys, you know you want to.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
The only effective way to treat radioactive water is to store it until the radioactivity goes down. Anyone know if the international standard involves mixing it with a lot of non-radioactive water until the radioactivity per volume-unit is low enough? And then releasing it into the sea...
This summary is hot garbage or a Tepco advertisement/PR damage control measure. They are beyond incompetent.
that's from TFA. complete is 100%. fini.
Well, going with theoretical solutions (for 200 Alex), I'd whip up a pneumatic robot (all fluidic pressure, no electronics), and strap on a chemical laser + fiber optic lines + lens system. That should ensure that stray radiation will not damage any electronics, as it won't have any, though it will be a one way trip for the bot (still going to be highly radioactive), and watching the cables will be an issue (better pay the extra money to make sure they're braided). Then I'd send it into the reactor core, to cut up / out the still active reactor rods, and bring them to a designated midway point piece by piece.
No human is going to survive in that core, even if they'd volunteer for the mission...nor would any electronic-based machine. The first will be cooked from the inside out, the second will get so many errors as it gets closer to the core from radiation hitting its processors that it will do more damage than good.
I am John Hurt.
Do you believe they meant heavy water?
Do you think I don't know what that is?
What are you attempting to communicate with your post?
That's nice. It's also irrelevant. The Fukushima reactor did not use heavy water. The problem here is coolant/moderator ordinary light water that is heavily contaminated with dissolved radioactive materials.
Duh. Ya think, TEPCO shitheads?
It isn't precisely the phrasing I would use. Every shred of public confidence was lost on 2011-3-11 and the few days following, and nothing done since has restored a single iota of it.
Cement might not be the best option, but I agree that's something along the right lines.
I was actually thinking gelatin, or some other coagulant, which would entrap the contaminants preventing further leakage without preventing future recovery and processing (you can re-melt gelatin). If the goal is to halt the leaking, something along those lines seems like a potential solution.
=Smidge=
So they are protecting us from over 60% of the contaminated water. Well good job then, 60% is a passing grade, so I guess this means they are doing a good job.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Jell-O brand would like to warn the gelatin loving populace out there that "Gell-O" is not part of the Jell-O brand family, and especially not to trust the "Happy Midday Glow Lime" flavor, as it is actually highly radioactive.
Tritium is not a major issues. It is a very short lived beta emitter.
Where are you going to find this much concrete? You are look at hoover dams worth of the stuff quite likely.
You mean something like zeolite, the material the engineers at Fukushima have been using for about two years or so to extract radioactive cesium and some other problematic isotopes from contaminated water before it is recycled throguh the reactor cores to cool them? The first small-capacity cesium-absorption units were supplied by Areva in France (part of the international effort to contain radioactive pollution on the site that according to pundits here and elsewhere hasn't been happening up till now because the Japanese are too stubborn to accept outside help that they're actually accepting). The larger-capacity "SARRY" units were built in Japan and first went into operation at Fukushima Daiichi in mid-August 2011.
But that's TEPCO for you, keeping things like cesium absorbtion equipment a big secret. Apart from all the press releases, the videos and such about this sort of effort that get ignored because it indicates some competency in the engineering going on at Fukushima which doesn't fit the "We're doomed!" storyline that sells newspapers and web clicks.
No, zeolite is essentially filtering medium, similar to activated charcoal.
I'm talking about actually coagulating the contaminated water to prevent it from leaking out. Then you could scoop it out and re-liquefy it for processing.
=Smidge=
As I recall, the traditional way involved wearing a white robe and holding a knife in your hand while your trusted second stood behind you with his sword drawn, ready to finish the job.
The modern way seems to involve holding a press conference in which you say "Gosh, we don't know how that went wrong. It certainly wasn't our fault. I hope it doesn't happen again. Again." while your trusted second brings you a coffee.
I'm sure that one of those approaches will suffice to restore TEPCO's spotless public image.
In fact they don't know where the core is!
It could be in the lower parts of the building, but most likely much of it has melted down far into the ground. How far, nobody knows. It may be in the water table. There is sporadic evidence of ongoing fission at the sites.
They neither have it under control, nor contained.
Nuke it from orbit. Only way to be sure. In fact the same procedure could be used on tepco official and management to good effect.
Silence is a state of mime.
How do you plan to pump this coagulated sludge? The most contaminated water on the Fukushima site is being recirculated through the reactor cores to cool them; some of this coolant did escape a leaky pipe in April last year, dumping significant quantities of radioactive material into the sea. The water in most of the tanks on the site is only slightly radioactive by comparison and the recent headline-grabbing leak from such a tank (the water had already been through one filtering system and was in store waiting to get further filtration treatment) hasn't caused much of a rise in radioactivity in the seawater measurements taken regularly close to the site. You can find current and historical seawater contamination measurements via the NRA website here. Short version; the contamination from radioactive cesium isotopes just offshore from the Fukushima Daiichi plant today is well below the natural level of radioactivity of regular uncontaminated seawater which contains large mounts of potassium-40.
- pretending that this a public relations problem.
...and Fukushima is a perfect example.
In the months following the incident, the press was hyping the accident to ethereal levels.
In the years following the incident, the US nuclear industry groups busily developed counter propaganda, using official measurements and downplaying risks ("1% greater chance of dying from cancer for 77 people") and the like. Carefully written op-ed and science pieces appeared all over the press from the Smart Serious People in the room, to soothe a worried public, that their superior assessment of the situation proved the concerns of pollution would become cautionary tales of hysteria.
The Japanese government deliberately withheld information until after the election, and now the pollution levels emanating form the plant render many the carefully written, I-told-you-it-was-hysteria explanations, riddled in Smug by the Serious Persons seem pretty silly, if not entertaining, to read.
If anything can be drawn from all this, it is, "It ain't over till it's over..."
The water will be safe LONG before that. The worst of the stuff in the water has a 30 year half life.
However, simple distillation (noting that simple is a relative term when dealing with radiation at that level) would be a better choice since that would greatly reduce the volume of waste to store.
The water will be safe LONG before that. The worst of the stuff in the water has a 30 year half life.
However, simple distillation (noting that simple is a relative term when dealing with radiation at that level) would be a better choice since that would greatly reduce the volume of waste to store.
So, now you want to cook water with radioactive materials in it? Considering TEPCO's safety record with radioactive steam, I know exactly what would happen here. Perhaps there are non-heating ways to distill the water, though.
However some of that radioactive material is tritium, which is nearly impossible to separate from regular water. (Yes, gas vapor centrifuges can probably do it, but not for the amount of water they have to deal with.) Tritium has a half-life of 12ish years, so letting it sit around for a while is still the best way to go.
The real issue is that TEPCO cannot even sit on radioactive material without messing it up, much less run a reactor or cleaning system with moving parts.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I thought I read, "Fucking Fukushima's Water Problem." Angsty submissions today!
Browse at 1. You'll thank me later.
Still here. Note that in spite of nearly incredible incompetence from all concerned, still nobody dead.
Yet. It will be some time before the increased mortality from this incident is known.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Actually, at this point all I want TEPCO to do is pay for it. I'd rather leave the actual handling to someone more competent.
It would still be a good idea to separate it so the more dangerous waste is in stable solid form, then we can worry about getting rid of the tritium or just using it appropriately (it is quite useful for emergency lighting).
Actually, at this point all I want TEPCO to do is pay for it. I'd rather leave the actual handling to someone more competent.
I don't trust Japan's NRA (Nuclear Regulatory Authority) not to mess that up. The agency was formed in response to Fukushima because the old NSC was so full of revolving-door cronyism that it had to be reformed after allowing the disaster. I have no faith that this new agency is simply a new name on the same corruption.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
It's not a very long time for tritium. It's even shorter if they harvest the valuable tritium for industrial use.
why not let the water evaporate? this would be the best solution I think.
The evacuation has killed quite a few people. Probably saved more than it killed, but without the accident there would not have been an evacuation under those tough post earthquake conditions. Nuclear power kills, one way or another, it kills.
Pfft... that's old hat in the UK. As you can see from this advert, Sellafield were clearly disposing of their unwanted nuclear waste as part of a children's breakfast cereal back in the 70s.
:-)
FWIW, that advert is guaranteed to confirm Yanks' stereotype of "English" children as all having upperclass "British" accents and enduring lousy weather. All that's missing is rotten teeth.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
The water will be safe LONG before that. The worst of the stuff in the water has a 30 year half life.
However, simple distillation (noting that simple is a relative term when dealing with radiation at that level) would be a better choice since that would greatly reduce the volume of waste to store.
So, now you want to cook water with radioactive materials in it?
The real issue is that TEPCO cannot even sit on radioactive material without messing it up, much less run a reactor or cleaning system with moving parts.
Caution this stuff is self heating. You could let
it boil water and then vent water vapor but the more you
concentrate the waste the more trouble you have
with the thermal load which then compromises storage
tanks.
It is increasing obvious that the material needs to be sealed tight
and a thermal solution put in place.
Each locality in the site needs attention. Storage pools
are not thermally stable. Damaged reactor cores need
to be unloaded as much as possible. It is impossible to
unload melted/ slagged rods. When the cladding began
reacting and releasing hydrogen the ability to safely remove rods
went in the crapper.
Then there is contamination... anything and everything is
likely unsafe for humans. Robot technology can barely
survey the damage.... The contamination is so wide spread
that you cannot bring a container near material that need to
be removed without contaminating the outside of the container.
Bring in the Russian dolls.
One big stinking pile of trouble...
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
And even that is necessarily based on the unproven theory that there is no threshold for risk.
And if it turns out that your present impression of how bad the problem is is wrong, will you be apologizing for having been so smug and superior right here?
(But wait... how would you ever know? If an expert publishes a result you don't like, you'll just assume it's wrong-- they've obviously been corrupted, eh?)
And do I get points for sitting on the fence about how bad Fukushima is until all the results are in? Unlike, for example, Democracy Now that couldn't wait to quote the first "Worse than Chernobyl!" quote they could find?
One thing I'll concede: I was (and still am) on record for saying how ever bad it is, it won't bring down the nuclear industry's average to below the level of certain other power sources few people seem to worry about...
Every time an airplane crashes, you don't have people going "You see, we need to ban air travel!".
Because there is so much of, and in that area will evaporation occur faster than rainfall? I never add water to my pool, it fills via rain faster than it evaporates.
then pump it through one of those simpson tower coolers. just tumbling about in spray form will help evaporate it. also it's heated by its own decay so I don't see the problem here. you must be east coast so for you its academic, but for us in CA it's a tangible concern that our ocean water will become unsafe. there's a lot of beach communities here.
The possibility of negligence from nonfeasance should be the one thing to allow the Japanese Government to save face. I don't think Japan should feel any shame in receiving help by all governments who share the pacific.
The engineering effort of this boggles the mind and many sorts of expertise will need to be brought to bare to resolve it as quickly as possible AND produce a long term solution. This is well beyond TEPCO's ability and will require resources that transcend their capabilities after all their core business is to supply electricity.
It's happened now, so everyone who shares the consequences should share the responsibility so we can control it as quickly as possible.
What would be really great is if the Japanese Government took control of the situation now that TEPCO has contained the initial situation. That way we can move on quickly to engineering a proper solution. Hopefully they already are.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
1% greater chance of dying from cancer for 77 people
Even that's exaggerated. There are an estimated ~2000 people who face an elevated risk of thyroid cancer. Even with that elevated risk, there is never expected to be a statistically measurable increase in the actual development of thyroid cancer.
And thyroid cancer is treatable. It has a 97% survival rate. Those people are going to be screened annually. They're probably going to be just fine.
I am east coast, but even if you dumped the all the fuel from that reactor in the ocean your beaches would not be unsafe. If you think otherwise I want to see some citations.
I am east coast, but even if you dumped the all the fuel from that reactor in the ocean your beaches would not be unsafe.[1] If you think otherwise I want to see some citations.
[1] your ass
No, I just lazily assumed even dilution.
Do you have a better method?
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4186673&cid=44807489
That post just has some random claims about your beaches. No actual evidence that it could be.
yes but the author of the post is an industry expert who knows what he's talking about.
So then show your work if you are an industry expert.
STOP STALKING ME! I'll report you to slashdot mods.
Replying to a comment you made to me is not stalking. Report away, you loony.
it doesn't take an industry expert to see that dilution is not the solution to pollution. i say that the japanese made this mess, let's not externalize the burdens! make them clean it up or suffer the effects. not my problem, not in my back yard.
Sure, but that does not mean that this could possibly contaminate the pacific enough to harm your local beaches.
Hopefully, you realize responding to your comment directed to me is not stalking. So you backed away from claiming you're an expert now?
I don't have to justify myself to you. my words speak for themselves. that is the strength of the internet - it is about ideas, not people. in your case, it's also about trolls.
In your case it is about unjustified claims. Asking for a citation is not trolling, kiddo.
you are stalking me by modding down all my posts on other threads. low class.
I have not had mod points in over a year, numbnuts. I never meta moderate now that they changed how that works.