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Study Shows Professors With Tenure Are Worse Teachers

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "We all know the stereotype about tenured college professors: great researchers, lazy teachers. Now Jordan Weissmann writes in the Atlantic that a new study confirms the conventional knowlege that faculty who aren't on the tenure-track appear to do a better job at teaching freshmen undergraduates in their introductory courses than their tenured/tenure-track peers. 'Our results provide evidence that the rise of full-time designated teachers at U.S. colleges and universities may be less of a cause for alarm than some people think, and indeed, may actually be educationally beneficial.' Using the transcripts of Northwestern freshmen from 2001 through 2008, the research team focused on two factors: inspiration and preparation. The team began by asking if taking a class from a tenure or tenure-track professor in their first term later made students more likely to pursue additional courses in that field. That's the inspiration part. Next the researchers wanted to know if students who took their first course in a field from a tenure or tenure-track professor got better grades when they pursued more advanced coursework. That's the preparation part. Controlling for certain student characteristics, freshmen were actually about 7 percentage points more likely to take a second course in a given field if their first class was taught by an adjunct or non-tenure professor and they also tended to get higher grades in those future courses. The pattern held 'for all subjects, regardless of grading standards or the qualifications of the students the subjects attracted' from English to Engineering. The defining trend among college faculties during the past 20 years or so (40, if you really want to stretch back) has been the rise of the adjuncts. 'That said, there is something appealingly intuitive in these results,' concludes Weissmann. 'Professionals who are paid entirely to teach, in fact, make for better teachers. Makes sense, right?'"

183 of 273 comments (clear)

  1. Moo by Chacham · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is the difference really tenured or non-tenured? Or is it, younger or older.

    1. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Is the difference really tenured or non-tenured? Or is it, younger or older.

      Socrates was outraged at the accusation that he took money to teach because teaching the youth was everyone's job. It would be like accusing an honest person of embezzlement.

    2. Re:Moo by Vanderhoth · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I haven't had mod points in over a year, but if I had 'em, you'd get 'em.

      Not that I think older people make bad professors, but certainly I could see them becoming more jaded over time. It's like giving someone a fork, we just assume it's intuitive and everyone will know how to use it, but give a fork to a two year old and watch them try to use it. Hilarity ensues.

      I guess chopsticks would be a better analogy. The longer you've been using them the harder it is to understand why others just can't get it right. My dad always had that, "I'm hungry and have better things to do than explain the process, figure it out for yourself or starve." attitude. Which was kind of the same attitude I got from some of my profs in university.

    3. Re:Moo by arth1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      "faculty who aren't on the tenure-track appear to do a better job at teaching freshmen undergraduates in their introductory courses than their tenured/tenure-track peers"

      Emphasis mine.

      That should not be extrapolated into tenured professors being worse teachers overall. I'm pretty certain that for advanced studies, the opposite is true, if nothing else because the untenured teachers don't have the same chance to specialize.

    4. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Way to miss the point. He meant younger or older professors. You see, chances are that the non-tenured professors are younger than the tenured professors. The fact that you require this explanation proves you were taught by a tenured professor.

      Could the youthful exuberance of a younger professor make a difference? Can the smaller age variance make them more approachable? Could it be that the tenured professors are too busy banging the best looking chicks in class? Could it be that the students get older and have more access to alcohol?

    5. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In Slashdot this seems to be an unknown and little-considered phenomenon. But in natural conversation, often times the mentioning of a thing will remind one of similar but unrelated things that it may still be edifying to discuss. So discussion can take a few turns before it gets to its destination, having covered more ground and explored a variety of subjects and picked the brains of the multiple people who come here. Rather than a rigid straight line, the discussion can be more of a tree and everyone is the richer for it.

      Of course if you understand this on Slashdot, you will be accused of being a moron because you didn't say exactly what was expected of you. I am very sorry you feel such a deep-seated need to assert your perceived intellectual superiority over random strangers for trivial reasons. There is no joy to be found down that path. Someone must have really mistreated you during your formative years. Perhaps this was your schoolmates who bullied you for being "a nerd"?

    6. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      WTF are you talking about? What does this have to do with "the cloud" and NSA? Try to stay on point, son.

    7. Re:Moo by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's like giving someone a fork, we just assume it's intuitive and everyone will know how to use it, but give a fork to a two year old and watch them try to use it. Hilarity ensues.

      That might be a factor but I think (speaking as a prof) that I get better at realizing what is intuitive and what is not as I teach because if I assume something is "obvious" and it is not then I'll have 10 students outside my office asking about it. However, something I do find hard to adjust to is the ever decreasing standards of high school education. Tenured faculty rarely have time to run remedial sessions to help less academic students cope with the ever widening gap. However sessional lecturers do not have research programs and service work to worry about to the same extent and, at least where I am, several do run such sessions to help less able students. So I am not surprised to learn that less able students showed the largest performance increase.

    8. Re:Moo by ranton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That should not be extrapolated into tenured professors being worse teachers overall. I'm pretty certain that for advanced studies, the opposite is true, if nothing else because the untenured teachers don't have the same chance to specialize.

      By advanced studies I assume you mean graduate classes correct? Because if you are implying that anything taught at the undergraduate level requires a level of specialization beyond what an adjunct can possess, I strongly disagree. I would venture to say that almost all graduate classes don't require that much specialization either. I went to a school at the bottom end of the top 50 nation-wide, and almost all of my graduate classes were a joke. The only real benefit was resume padding and the chance to become involved in research (where I learned a great deal).

      Tenured professors will still be useful for their research. This is both because of the results of the research and for the opportunity they give students who assist with the research. But if their research is important at all then they are probably wasting their time teaching, and apparently doing a worse job than those who would have focused on teaching full time. I know my research advisor could have got much more done if she didn't have to prepare lectures all the time.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    9. Re:Moo by OakDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about tenured professors have less reason to give a damn about their jobs, since they cannot be (easily) fired?

    10. Re:Moo by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Tenured is a bad plan in terms of Human Resources, and productivity.
      Every job has an aspect to it that isn't fun, and people would prefer not to do it if they don't want to. What keeps people doing these sucky parts of their jobs, is the fact that they could get promoted, or at least not fired for doing them.

      Now if you have Tenured where you would only get fired if you really try to, means your job is secured, not matter what. So if there is the sucky part of your job, you just don't do it, or do it well. Most Professors do not like to teach Undergrad classes, they want to focus on their research. So once they get Tenured they will not try hard.

      The non-tenured professor, needs to fight for his job, there is a lot of competition. he needs to be sure the undergrad money maker students are getting a good education with him, so he looks good to his bosses, as not to be replace next year with another Recent PHD grad.

      Honestly how many people would quit their jobs if they hit the jackpot in the lottery? Even if they loved their job they would quit, because they don't have to deal with the stuff they don't want to deal with, as needing money for survival isn't a factor. They can live quite well for the rest of their life so why make themselves do stuff they don't want to do.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is fashionable to blast the tenure process, but faculty that get fired are not going to go work at the local gas station (or even at some software company) and come back as great faculty ever again. And people generally get tenured about the time they are dealing with families, and are least-likely to tolerate long-distance moves, which is important considering how distant universities are from each other. So you start instituting the destruction of the tenure process, and you'll destroy universities ... in the US, that is the perhaps the only part of the educational process that is actually good.

    12. Re:Moo by Vanderhoth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't think I can agree wit that. Many tenured professors do research, it's their life and they do it because they enjoy it. I work at research institute and we have tons of researchers that get forced into retirement that beg to come back and continue research. Emeritus, they come back and work for free, why bother hiring, training and paying new researchers when you can have extremely skilled and knowledgeable ones practically pay you for the privileged of doing what they've been doing for 40+ years.

      I could see profs giving less of a damn about teaching since it's basically a necessary evil for them. They have to teach as part of their agreement in order to continue research, but time spent teaching is time spent away from doing what they want to be doing. Kind of like sitting in meetings is time away from coding and development for most of us. It's a pain in the arse and normally not beneficial to what we actually do, maybe even harmful (I can't count the number of times just sitting in a meeting ended up changing the direction of an unrelated project because someone not related to the project said, "wouldn't it be cool if...?", I'm sure we've all been there), but it has to be done to please the higher ups.

    13. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, but nobody in this thread is addressing the root reasons for tenure. Tenure exists to allow professors to have true academic freedom and freedom of speech. Otherwise major donors could influence the choice of who to fund and who to fire based on the political, religious (or other) views of individual professors.

      Here's Wikipedia;
      Without job security, the scholarly community as a whole might favor "safe" lines of inquiry. The intent of tenure is to allow original ideas to be more likely to arise, by giving scholars the intellectual autonomy to investigate the problems and solutions about which they are most passionate, and to report their honest conclusions.

    14. Re:Moo by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      No, it is non-experienced vs experienced. Most people who go into teaching do so to garner satisfaction believing they will be helping and loving the selfless feeling. They start their career full of exuberance then begin to realize that it just isn't what they had thought it was. Disillusioned, they cling to the career resentful of the administration and red tape when they should be moving on to a different career.

    15. Re:Moo by OakDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've actually repented of my flip comment based on someone else's reasonable explanation, so yes I do see what you're saying now. Thanks for not calling me a d-bag or something like that.

    16. Re:Moo by lorenlal · · Score: 1

      Maybe the tenured professors remember their pre-tenure days of being beaten down in reviews by freshmen who thought they should get an easy A in their class. Wouldn't surprise me if they look at the intro classes and just say to themselves, "F 'em, if they don't want to work, I don't want them advancing in my field."

    17. Re:Moo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yet another college dropout (that means you got an arts-fartsy or business degree) who is jealous that someone else learned something, complaining about how hard the STEM courses were. The problem is that the typical business and liberal arts major didn't come to learn, but rather party. On a typical late Friday afternoon the business and liberal arts majors have already drunk themselves into a stupor, while the STEM people are still trying to finish up homework/programs/projects. Hence if anything interferes with partying it is bad as far as the business and liberal arts majors are concerned. Combine that with complete lack of academic ability of the current business and liberal arts majors no wonder they complain about faculty. Please don't push the "tenured faculty cann't be fired bovine excrement. Over the last ten years at my Carnegie foundation classified high research activity university (see http://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org to understand what that implies) we have fired 5 tenured full professors for not meeting teaching standards. Based on conversations with friends and fellow faculty at other similarly classified institutions we are not uncommon. Tenured faculty can and often fired for poor performance.

    18. Re:Moo by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

      And in Ancient Greece, teaching students involved some other activities we would frown on today if you get my drift.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    19. Re:Moo by DudeTheMath · · Score: 2

      Additionally, tenure-track faculty may consider being assigned a freshman intro course a punishment (and, sometimes, it is). Sometimes, an upper-level class which the faculty member has put a lot of effort into preparing doesn't make some minimum enrollment, and they are assigned to an intro course with no time to prepare.

      The study notes, but the media summaries rarely mention, that most of the gains were from lower-achieving students; the higher-achieving students saw no difference between the two classes of instructor. This should not be a surprise.

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    20. Re:Moo by Larry_Dillon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you're onto something here. Senior faculty sometimes resent having to teach 101 classes. Tenure is important for academic freedom and to go against what the administration wants.

      --
      Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
    21. Re:Moo by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      Graduate classes or upper level undergrad courses. There's a few years between freshman survey courses and grad school.

      I'm guessing something is going to change with education and research. As you pointed out, it hasn't made much sense for our researchers to be wasting time teaching for a while now. Additionally, there's a flood of PhDs coming. Online classes are coming as well, reducing the need for overqualified lecturers, and the education bubble is going to have to pop before too long.

      Ideally what would happen is we separate teaching from research. Worst case scenario is if research grinds to a halt because of budget idiocy, and all the jobs dry up too because they're all tied to colleges.

    22. Re:Moo by Vanderhoth · · Score: 1

      No problem, if I read the word "moron" or similar as a reference to something I or someone else posted I usually just skip to the next post, but other wise I try not to assume everyone is a troll until they start repeatedly acting like d-bags.

    23. Re:Moo by taiwanjohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Adjuncts are also handy for keeping your payroll costs down. Economist Richard Wolff mentions this often in his lectures. It's the same trend toward part-time work that shows up in a lot of industries lately.

      My suspicious side notes that this study in TFA is rather convenient for academic administrators who might want to "enhance the institution's bottom line" by reducing the number of tenured faculty. But I'm sure there's no connection, and it would never be used like that. ;-)

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    24. Re:Moo by thoromyr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When I had sociology 101 it was taught, due to unusual circumstances, by the department chair. This was at a reasonably large university and, being a required freshman course, had large classrooms. I was not, however, a freshman. By that time I had two years behind me and was picking up the required courses at the university I had transferred to.

      If you had surveyed the students they would have indicated the instruction was terrible. Not because it was, but because they were nearly all freshman. Straight from highschool with over rated opinions of their own intellectual capacity, no ethic for study or class participation, and no interest in the class. Although it was hampered by class size it was one of the better taught classes I've been in.

      Yes, I realize you are emphasizing "freshman undergraduates" and "introductory courses", but the problem isn't (necessarily) that tenure track professors are less effective at teaching them but (more likely) that they push and expect more (something) from the students.

      Students are an amazingly lazy lot*. At a third university (yeah, I moved around a bit) I took a medieval history course. It was flooded with students and it turns out that 1) there was either no class size limit or it was not enforced and 2) the prof had (deservedly or not) gained a reputation as being an "easy A". I had a genuine interest in the topic and, being new, had not heard of the rep until the first day of class. It was a "flash enrollment" situation -- apparently the class had been small up to that semester and he spent an undue amount of time trying to convince people to drop. When taking a survey of students concerning their professors the group bias needs to be taken into account.

      I've known tenured professors who taught at various levels (introductory courses on up) who were absolutely *loved* by students because you got an A simply by being enrolled. Top approval ratings, voted for teaching excellence, etc. Conversely, another tenured professor, on the first day of class for a required course, bragged that he (and one other) prof accounted for something like 90% of the students taking it semester after semester and that 60% of those students didn't pass. It was a point of pride with him. Without knowing more about the situation, student evaluation of professors is basically meaningless.

      What it boils down to is that some professors are gas bags who just like to hear themselves talk. Some are there for the pay check. Others are just there for the research and resent having any class load at all. In other words, they vary.

      About the one valid generalization that can be made of tenured vs non-tenure track vs non-tenured tenure track is that non-tenure track tend to try harder and care more about student approval; non-tenured tenure track tend to try to meet tenure requirements and care more about student approval. In other words, tenured faculty (as a generalization) tend to be less concerned with student approval. They've also been doing it long enough to have learned that students want contradictory things (e.g., there was too much classroom discussion vs there was not enough).

      * I'm using this as a generalization of undergraduates in general. Graduate students are, in my experience, more motivated than nearly any undergraduate. But the motivation levels of undergraduate students varies a lot ranging from the "I can't be bothered to show up for class" freshman to the rare "I will exceed the expectations for all assignments". Students suffer from a range of maladies, such as believing they can pass a class without doing any assigned work or reading.

    25. Re:Moo by timeOday · · Score: 4, Informative

      How about tenured professors have less reason to give a damn about their jobs, since they cannot be (easily) fired?

      No, because the findings also held for young professors on tenure track, whose positions are about as uncertain as you can get. This would seem to indicate that the issue is a focus on research vs teaching. You don't get tenure, or a Nobel Prize, for teaching.

    26. Re:Moo by tlambert · · Score: 4, Informative

      My suspicious side notes that this study in TFA is rather convenient for academic administrators who might want to "enhance the institution's bottom line" by reducing the number of tenured faculty. But I'm sure there's no connection, and it would never be used like that. ;-)

      I also noticed this, and that the study was published by two administrators and a consultant. There did seem to be a slight amount of vested interest in the conclusions which were reached; I'm guessing they were just lucky the data came out that way? ;)

    27. Re:Moo by floodo1 · · Score: 1

      did you get an MBA?

      --
      I KUT J00 M4NG!!!
    28. Re:Moo by skids · · Score: 1

      Even were it so, one has to ask how much quality teaching we get out of tenure versus adjunct over the entire career.

      If we made everyone adjunct professors they would simply be disposed of by the market when their effectiveness goes below some point as they eventually burn out, where a tenured professor enjoying a greater level of security and possibly lower stress levels as a result may linger on still doing effective work, just not with the same success rate, and probably with side-benefits not measured by the study, like participation in the academic community that holds a college together. Putting aside the deplorable practice of darwinistically abandoning a person who has dedicated their life to such a noble pursuit once there is a younger more energetic candidate, we have to ammortize the cost to replace the burned-out adjunct into their lifetime career acheivement. If a tenured professor has a -7% penalty but works enough additional years, it's quite likely a wash.

    29. Re:Moo by ranton · · Score: 1

      Graduate classes or upper level undergrad courses. There's a few years between freshman survey courses and grad school.

      No I meant graduate classes not upper level undergrad courses. The level of specialization that a professor has is not going to apply to courses taught in the senior year of an undergrad program. Even those classes are going to be broad enough that someone specializing in teaching is going to know far more about the breadth of the topic than a researcher who has a far more focused specialization. You don't need someone doing research into optimizing indexes for distributed columnar databases to teach a senior about the CAP theorem.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    30. Re:Moo by ranton · · Score: 1

      did you get an MBA?

      No. Getting an MBA would have been ideal but because I was a screw-up in my early twenties I had to finish my bachelors online. Since those schools are just diploma mills and everyone knows it, I got my MS in computer science at a good school to wash the stink of the UoP degree off my resume.

      Masters degrees in IT are basically just for people who have an irrelevant bachelors who are changing fields, for people who couldn't find a job so they stayed in school, or those who want to transition into research. If you have a bachelors at a good school and don't want to do research, an MBA would be much better. If you have a BS in computer science and learn a lot in an MS:CS program, you really need to learn how to read a book on your own.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    31. Re:Moo by WrongMonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That mechanism has already failed. Modern scientific research is so expensive that even tenured professors have to carter to the whims of funding agencies (NSF, NIH, etc.) in order to continue working. Intellectually autonomy doesn't keep the rat colony alive, pay the electric bill for servers or purchase chemical reagents.

    32. Re:Moo by timeOday · · Score: 1
      I think you simply wouldn't have a steady supply of disposable adjunct professors, if the possibility of tenure (or at least some level of steady and well-paying employment) weren't there to continue drawing people into academia.

      It's like a casino owner dreaming of how much more profitable the business would be if only they didn't have to pay off a winner once in a while.

    33. Re:Moo by Cassini2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The university system was set up to preserve and expand knowledge. The tenure system works well in that regard. Most tenured professors keep doing research, and keep graduating PhDs. Witness the number of retired (Professor Emeritus) professors that are still active in their fields.

      Once you realize that universities were never meant to teach large numbers of undergraduate students, then the problems start becoming obvious. What does research and tenure have to do with undergraduate teaching? If you are lucky, in the fourth year you might start to get current knowledge in most engineering programs. Everything taught before that has been known since the 1950's (and often much earlier like the 1700's). As such, current research has almost nothing to do with the undergraduate program. Even current employment trends, on the whole, have nothing to do with the curriculum of the undergraduate program at most universities. (Witness the large number of liberal-arts majors and the correspondingly small number of associated liberal-arts jobs.)

      The explosion that is about to happen is that:
      a) students want to pay for something that gets them a job,
      b) universities were never originally structured for job training, and
      c) the universities have no funding formula to pay for the practical facilities for practical job training. This means that students graduate without practical skills, and this makes them unemployable.

      We are heading to a world where we have many highly-educated, unemployed, indebted and poor former university students.

    34. Re:Moo by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Oh Boo Hoo... Like every other professional field doesn't have that problem.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    35. Re:Moo by poity · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this will alter the metrics used by college ranking organizations. IIRC, US News ranking system considers the number of tenured professors teaching undergrad as one of their measures of success, which has been offered as an explanation of why Princeton has been shooting up the ranks in the past years (and actually edging out Harvard this year).

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    36. Re:Moo by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It would be better if Universities, get out of the Educating Kids for Jobs market, but strict educational research path.

      We need to get Organizations to recognize non-College degrees as valuable education for their work. And save your College education degree for career paths in research and education.

      The Undergrad classes, should be taught not in a University setting but in a Schooling setting outside of research. Not Dumb it down, but teach it with the expectation that people will use it to go to work in industry.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    37. Re:Moo by the+phantom · · Score: 1

      Adjuncts are also handy for keeping your payroll costs down.

      No kidding. I made more as a graduate student last semester teaching two classes than I will as an adjunct this semester teaching three classes.

    38. Re:Moo by Hatta · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think you have the economics confused. Tenured professors are bad teachers because they focus on research more than teaching. They focus on research more than teaching because that's what gets grants and prestige. If you are a prestigious research university, you will have plenty of students regardless of how good the instruction is.

      Tenured faculty should be a source of profit, not a cost.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    39. Re:Moo by Jessified · · Score: 1

      Probably has more to do with the fact that these professors have little to no teacher training. There is an implicit assumption that a PhD in mathematics automatically confers an ability to teach.

      It makes no sense...a PhD in chemistry doesn't confer you an ability to research astronomy...why should it make you a good teacher?

    40. Re:Moo by crossmr · · Score: 1

      Or is it that non-tenured teachers are trying to become tenured?

      If you take away the carrot maybe everyone stops trying.

    41. Re:Moo by swb · · Score: 1

      There's lots of different flavors of adjuncts.

      I had plenty of PhD candidates who taught my 1xxx and 3xxx level undergrad classes. The more senior PhD candidates are probably as knowledgeable as tenured profs because they are actively involved in learning and have more recently read and absorbed a lot of the material within the field.

      Some tenured profs who are research heavy may even do worse than this because they are focused on specific research areas and may not even be reasonably current on certain areas within their fields.

      Other adjuncts may be just failed PhDs who can't get tenure, and the quality there can vary from people hoping to get tenure track positions and working hard to stay current to people just looking to make rent.

    42. Re:Moo by ranton · · Score: 1

      That is common practice, but those graduate classes are usually ones that anyone with a BS in IT would test out of when in their graduate program. They are basically just glorified senior level classes to get graduate students who were journalism majors ready for their more "graduate level" classes. There were four classes like this in my program and I tested out of three of them (would have done all four but I didn't know it was an option at first).

      In the one class I did take, about three quarters of the students were seniors. This was because it really was an undergraduate level class masquerading as a graduate course.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    43. Re:Moo by ranton · · Score: 1

      I agree, the research based classes are ones I think would be great for research based professors to continue to teach. But usually undergrads only take one or two (or none) of these classes. These classes are great for the students who are able to self-learn and don't have much use for most of the classes in a standard undergrad education.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    44. Re:Moo by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Adjuncts are also handy for keeping your payroll costs down. Economist Richard Wolff mentions this often in his lectures. It's the same trend toward part-time work that shows up in a lot of industries lately.

      My suspicious side notes that this study in TFA is rather convenient for academic administrators who might want to "enhance the institution's bottom line" by reducing the number of tenured faculty. But I'm sure there's no connection, and it would never be used like that. ;-)

      Knowing some of those adjuncts working at a local college, I can say that if they are working harder, it could quite possibly be because those tenure tracked professorships are being dangled in front of them like carrots. Sometimes with many desiring the same spot while waiting for a person to retire. Then it really sucks when the person does retire and instead of the adjunct who has been teaching all the classes, written all the course work, and otherwise worked their ass off for that position for years, doesn't get it so the dean can give it to a political ally from outside the college with no experience in the field.

      The situation is very similar to the tech industry working people to death with overtime with promises of permanent employment, bonuses, or other perks, but just working them till they burn out and replacing them instead.

    45. Re:Moo by B1ackDragon · · Score: 2

      That mechanism has already failed. Modern scientific research is so expensive that even tenured professors have to carter to the whims of funding agencies (NSF, NIH, etc.) in order to continue working. Intellectually autonomy doesn't keep the rat colony alive, pay the electric bill for servers or purchase chemical reagents.

      I'm glad somebody said this. Though I'm sure it's always served both roles, another thought about modern tenure (in my opinion as a young academic) is that it's much less about guaranteeing academic freedom, and much more about managing hiring in the face of an ever growing crowd of PhDs. A department might hire a few adjuncts to teach and put 4 or 5 good researchers on the the tenure track, with what seems like a full expectation of granting tenure to one (or zero, if they feel like rolling the dice again) and firing the rest. Tenure is a beautiful ideal, but functionally it's a back-breaking 5-year interview, with a lot of benefit gained for the university in the meantime. And in the end, those that make it through have been selected based on funding ability weighted over any other metric.

      I don't blame them for this really, there are many more PhDs than tenure slots and a maddening culture of anything-but-tenure as failure. I'll admit that I've only been in this game for a few years so I might be completely naive (I'm also lucky, being non-tenure track and on hard money), and I don't know how it works in the humanities. Nevertheless, I have a feeling that the concept of tenure is serving university endowments more and more and research and education less and less.

      On the positive side, there are many good "teaching" universities and community colleges out there picking up the slack on the education side at least.

      /bitterrant

      --
      The snow doesn't give a soft white damn whom it touches. -- ee cummings
    46. Re:Moo by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      We're not even discussing tenured vs. non-tenured. The study was about tenure-track vs. non-tenure-track. The comparison is between professors who do any research at all and professors who only teach. There are plenty of elderly teaching adjuncts, and they're extremely competent because it's their life-long work to teach.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    47. Re:Moo by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      Except in pure mathematics--the most important field of all.

    48. Re:Moo by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Traditionally what you are describing was called a 'college', as opposed to a 'university'.

      The only reason universities started teaching in the first place was to assure themselves new young researchers.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    49. Re:Moo by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Tenure in non-university schools is a travesty. That's just union feather bedding.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    50. Re:Moo by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The students are expected to have stepped up by the time they are getting tenured teachers. They're not 16 anymore and should not expect to be spoon fed and entertained. Subject knowledge is more important at that level.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    51. Re:Moo by nmr_andrew · · Score: 1

      100% agree with you on this, most people getting PhDs can't really teach that well, since many pursue the degree to focus on research and their "training" as an instructor pretty much involves running a discussion section or two and grading some exams. At least that was my experience. Also, the feedback and "reviews" I received from students pretty much paralleled their final grade and not what they learned.

      The problem is, how do we fix it? Having many friends and family members who are teachers, I can also 100% say that education classes don't confer any particular ability to teach either.

    52. Re:Moo by captain_nifty · · Score: 1

      It would be better if Universities, get out of the Educating Kids for Jobs market, but strict educational research path.

      We need to get Organizations to recognize non-College degrees as valuable education for their work. And save your College education degree for career paths in research and education.

      The Undergrad classes, should be taught not in a University setting but in a Schooling setting outside of research. Not Dumb it down, but teach it with the expectation that people will use it to go to work in industry.

      Perhaps this outside of research schooling you suggest could be provided to all in a publicly funded manner, and to make it more effective should be done early in a childs life, oh wait I forgot public K-12 schooling in America has become so simplified because Johnny might feel bad about not being able to read.

      A high school diploma used to be proof of basic reading and mathematics abilities needed for employment. The solution isn't to add more education later in life to prepare people for the world, if public schools were properly educating people, the HS diploma would regain value and colleges could become institutions of higher learning, instead of High School part 2 that many are becoming.

    53. Re:Moo by Jessified · · Score: 2

      How dare students expect to be properly taught by people they are paying to teach them?

      You didn't actually challenge my assertion that a PhD doesn't confer an ability to teach, rather you merely acknowledged that the teachers suck and then claim that students are entitled for expecting to get any kind of value out of their expensive tuition dollars. If in your world the only thing a degree confers is an ability to acquire knowledge independently, then all a university is is a massively overpriced testing facility.

    54. Re:Moo by Jessified · · Score: 1

      "The problem is, how do we fix it? Having many friends and family members who are teachers, I can also 100% say that education classes don't confer any particular ability to teach either."

      Yup I agree. I hesitate to say that teacher training is the only or even best solution (having a BEd myself) but I think it's probably a good place to start.

    55. Re:Moo by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can the smaller age variance make them more approachable?

      I doubt the variance of the ages of "younger" professors has anything to do with it. Perhaps the smaller difference in age between student and teacher does.

      This is one of those "d'oh" kinds of articles. Tenure was never intended to reward teaching, only research. Professors are judged on research, not teaching. Of COURSE teaching faculty will do a better job, in general, at teaching because that's what they are hired to do and what they are judged on. Especially at the freshman level courses that are done over and over again. And teaching faculty aren't distracted by worrying about their research.

      That's not to say you cannot find excellent teachers in the ranks of the professors. You can find excellent teachers in any profession. They are excellent teachers not because of their position but despite it.

      So, d'oh.

    56. Re:Moo by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      It's more about researcher vs. teacher. The guys with tenure are the ones with the big, juicy grants. And, oddly enough, they're the researchers. And researchers usually (N.B. I did not say "always".) are not the best teachers. All else is commentary.

      --
      That is all.
    57. Re:Moo by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      I think all of the above plays into the result of worse performance in teaching by tenured professors, specifically because many don't wish to teach and do so only grudgingly.

      If a college is focused on research, fine, but if you want a better classroom experience and educational outcome for students tenure seems to be a serious drawback.

    58. Re:Moo by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Frequently, habits ingrained (such as go along to get along) in doing what the administration wants in order to get tenure in the first place stick around after tenure is received. The academic freedom received may be too little, too late.

    59. Re:Moo by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Social Security taxes have always been rolled into the general budget funds, since the original amendments to the act in 1939. They have changed the way the taxes and funds were accounted for, but the actual operation of the process has been essentially the same as long as the program has existed. All surpluses have been spent on other things since the inception of the program. The "funds" in the Social Security Trust Fund are essentially IOUs from the government to itself. If you try doing the same thing yourself, you'll quickly realize that means the Fund has no actual value despite having an fictional accounting value. Sure, they may have legal value, but when you have to pay the IOU you hold on yourself to yourself, well, it means the money actually has to come from somewhere else. In terms of the government, that means borrowing, inflating, or reducing other expenditures.

    60. Re:Moo by jimbolauski · · Score: 2

      I would say it's the opposite, professors that are not tenured have more pressure to produce results in their research so they can earn tenure. Their research, publications and teaching evaluations are all considered for tenure. Once tenured teaching evaluations have no effect on pay or text book deals, there is no motivation for a tenured professor to be a good teacher other then their own.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    61. Re:Moo by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      I would keep my job mostly because I have no idea what I would do with so much free time.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    62. Re:Moo by TMB · · Score: 1

      That's certainly true, but some fraction of them will be good teachers innately or from additional training. Given the current job market, where there are far more highly qualified candidates than you can even short-list for any tenure-track faculty position at even non-prestigious research universities, departments can afford to be picky when they hire. In other words, don't expect to get hired today if you're only a good researcher but not a good teacher, because someone else who applied for the job will both be a good researcher *and* a good teacher.

      As a consequence, the past 5 years of tenure-track hires at pretty much any university are, on average, much better teachers than average hires have been before.

    63. Re:Moo by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      This. Also, tenure has the significant role of giving professors more scholarly AND instructional independence from their host institution. Which is important in times where academic censorship is an actively supported stream in the public consciousness. It was incredibly important in the McCarthy era, and it's looking like it's getting very important again, just when it's being erased.

    64. Re:Moo by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Maybe you could disentangle your good point ("Tenured faculty can, in fact, be fired for cause, and teaching standards can be cause.") from your misplaced rage at liberal arts and business majors? Because, at least on the liberal arts side, we're not all party monsters - and subjective fields aren't necessarily less demanding. I mean, I've had multiple 30+ page papers due over a single weekend, and I've had intensive programming assignments due over the same time, and I know which one I'd choose.

    65. Re:Moo by redlemming · · Score: 1

      That should not be extrapolated into tenured professors being worse teachers overall. I'm pretty certain that for advanced studies, the opposite is true, if nothing else because the untenured teachers don't have the same chance to specialize.

      Not clear what "advanced studies" means.

      From my perspective, with graduate degrees in EE and CS, and considerable experience as a teaching assistant, I'd expect good students with an interest in teaching and a Master's degree should be able to teach most Master's level courses in these fields (typically 500-700 level) and, of course, anything lower level. In such cases, they can easily do a better job than most PhD's, who have the specialization but little interest in teaching. I certainly learned more from some of my teaching assistants and my peers than from many of the professors, and I tried to do the same for my students.

      In industry, these same people (with a few years of experience under their belts) are the ones who end up teaching the "new guys (or gals)", and if the motivation and interest is there they'll do a good job (this is common), so there's a clear precedent that people without PhDs in these fields are capable of being good teachers.

      In all likelihood, the first semester will be a bit rough, but things will get better fast. I certainly made my share of mistakes as a teaching assistant, but I was able to quickly learn from those mistakes.

      Remarkably few PhDs in engineering and physical science fields spend any time at all reading about psychology, education, sociology, leadership, and so forth, and very few have formal training in teaching or even public speaking, which means they are essentially approaching the task from a position of ignorance. There seems to be a common assumption that they're too smart to have to do that kind of prep work, or that the approach their (often equally ignorant) teachers took is good enough.

      It's hard to learn from one's mistakes if one doesn't even realize one's mistaking mistakes, and while book learning doesn't make one good at any art, it DOES provide an intellectual foundation to help with recognizing one's mistakes. The vast majority of "professional" engineering instructors with Phds make huge numbers of mistakes, often very basic ones, in their approach to teaching, so the absence of this is a big problem (they make just as many basic mistakes in running their research groups, so it's not just the teaching part of their jobs that suffers).

      I'd consider "advanced studies" to be research courses (800-900 level). Here, most of the students will be PhD students or post-Docs, and considerable experience with the research area is needed. Even here, a PhD student working in that research area might be a far better teacher than their mentor.

      In my opinion, as a society we should be re-thinking the whole PhD concept. There is value in research, but there is also a huge price to be paid by students and ultimately the whole of society by having the academic system place too much emphasis on it. I'd like to see two types of PhD: one with an emphasis on multi-disciplinary learning and teaching, the other with the current emphasis on research. People with the former degree could provide most of the instructors at the university level, while people with the latter degree would primarily be involved in research.

    66. Re:Moo by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Your preschool teacher wiped you butt for you. Your grade school teacher wiped you nose for you. Your high school teacher didn't. Is nose/butt wiping part of 'properly teaching'?

      The teacher is there because she/he knows something you don't.

      Gaining the ability to acquire knowledge independently is the ultimate goal of education. It's a progression. The most important thing you learn is how to learn.

      Properly teaching a 22 year old is a lot less entertainment oriented then properly teaching a 12 year old. Would you prefer you college prof had knowledge comparable to a middle school teacher? Do you want to be treated like a kid all your life?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    67. Re:Moo by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I am a Tech Worker who Doesn't Live in California. There are a lot of tech workers who don't live in California. Oddly Enough where I live there are a lot of colleges and universities, where it is more common for Professors to switch jobs.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    68. Re:Moo by Larry_Dillon · · Score: 1

      I would like to see all faculty ratings (somehow) adjusted for the students' GPA and class grade. Too may students have an "I got an A, so instructor deserves an A, I got a C so instructor deserves a C" mentality.

      --
      Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
  2. No way! by Anon,+Not+Coward+D · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder why a person with in a unremovable job would put low effort on classes...

    Seriously this is news?

    --
    Sometimes it's better not having signature
    1. Re:No way! by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 2

      "tenure-track" means they don''t have tenure YET. The outcome is unexpected as you'd expect effort to get to the tenured position.

    2. Re:No way! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because lecturing at 500 people you will never have personal contact with in an introductory class is SO rewarding.
      Sounds like more propaganda for killing off tenure and continuing the trend of administrators pushing one shot short term
      contracts with no career path or benefits.

    3. Re:No way! by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      but they would... since that is when the try to give the introduction that will get the guys to stick with it.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:No way! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      To get tenure, you need to publish. You can be the best teacher in the world, but that won't get you tenure. So this is an expected result: Tenure-track professors are focusing on what they need to get tenure, i.e. research and publishing. Since they have less time and effort focused on teaching, the results there are less positive.

    5. Re:No way! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      That's true to a degree, but teaching and research (and publications) are not as separate as you might see. If you're a lecturer, a lot of your publications are going to be things that you've coauthored with your PhD or MPhil students. And the easiest way to get PhD students is to encourage your undergraduates to apply to continue studying with you (or apply for postgraduate research assistant jobs). The undergrad teaching is how you get the PhD students, and they're how you get significant quantities of research done.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:No way! by DudeTheMath · · Score: 2

      This. Notice that one of the authors of the study is the president of Northwestern?

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    7. Re:No way! by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Strongly encouraged...

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:No way! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      That depends a lot on what you want to work on. For some things, there are a very few institutions that specialise in a particular field, and if the reason you picked your undergraduate university was that they're world leaders in something you're interested in then you'd be crazy to go elsewhere. Similarly, if you're already at a top university then there often aren't many places where you can go that aren't a step down or don't require relocating to a different country (which may or may not be desirable).

      Even if your good students do go elsewhere, if you encourage them to do a PhD somewhere then they're likely to come into contact with good undergrads at their new institution, and when those students are considering somewhere to go then you want your former undergrads to put you in touch with them.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  3. Alternative Metrics by ohieaux · · Score: 5, Informative

    As a tenured faculty member, I can attest to the fact that tenure/tenure-track faculty at many research schools are evaluated (raise/promotion/tenure) on metrics different from adjuncts and instructors. Devoting sufficient time and effort to teaching can be counter productive for your career. For many disciplines, external funding and publications are the primary criteria for evaluation. Ultimately, energies in teaching are focused on graduate students - who support those activities. Add in service (committees, societies and the like) and it's often an issue of limited time.

    --
    Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
    1. Re:Alternative Metrics by OakDragon · · Score: 2

      Thanks for the informative post. Now I regret my half-cocked statement above! This sounds entirely reasonable.

    2. Re:Alternative Metrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As a tenured faculty member, I can attest to the fact that tenure/tenure-track faculty at many research schools are evaluated (raise/promotion/tenure) on metrics different from adjuncts and instructors. Devoting sufficient time and effort to teaching can be counter productive for your career. For many disciplines, external funding and publications are the primary criteria for evaluation. Ultimately, energies in teaching are focused on graduate students - who support those activities. Add in service (committees, societies and the like) and it's often an issue of limited time.

      This is true for most professions. I worked a helpdesk before I was promoted to a programmer. We used to complain that programmers never answered their pages (yes, I'm that old). Then when I became a programmer, I realized that the word, "support" was never used in my yearly reviews. Kind of explained the whole attitude programmers had.

    3. Re:Alternative Metrics by fermion · · Score: 1
      In my experience as a freshmen in college, tenure or tenure track made no difference. Some of it, I think, had to do with class size. I had small honor classes with professors that I really was inspired to do well even if I did not. I basically bombed my major classes because they were large, and were taught by profs. I was in a small calculus class that was taught by a new young guy, basically was later told by a full prof at another university that we was lucky to have a job, and that was not so good. I am now in a class where we are taught, at least in part, by full professor, kind of middle aged, and it really reinforces my idea that being taught, as an adult, by someone who really understands the content is critical. Yes, as a child, or teen, pedagogy is important, but I do not think the purpose the college lecturer is classroom control or engagement over deep analysis. There are other places for kids to go to learn if they are not serious enough for college. The issue is hardly lazy teachers, but lazy college students conditioned who have not yet understood that learning is a personal task, not something that can be forced on them by an external agent. Or that college is not really about a sheet of paper that will make you rich.

      I think there are a lot of variables that were not considered in this report. In any case, I wonder how important it is to 'inspire' in college. My degree plan did not have a lot of flexibility. I was inspired to go into another major, but that was because there were more opportunities to interact with full professors and more camaraderie among my fellow students. Not to mention a more laid back atmosphere and the assumption that the students were intelligent.

      Here is what a valid experiment would look like. Find a similar research and non research university with comparable student populations. Again, in my experience, non research universities have professors much more beholden to the whims of the students, and must work to be entertainers. Controlling for standard variables, and giving a pretest and post test and entry survey and exit survey, see which students have more satisfaction and have grown more. I will concede that the non research university might win out at the end of the freshman year. But the freshman year does not a degree make.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    4. Re:Alternative Metrics by ohieaux · · Score: 1

      Again, in my experience, non research universities have professors much more beholden to the whims of the students, and must work to be entertainers.

      I would tend to agree with this. But with less mature students at a research university, even tenured faculty need to be entertainers to motivate students.

      --
      Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
    5. Re:Alternative Metrics by call+-151 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good summary, speaking as another tenured faculty member. There are a number of things which are not addressed in the study which complicate any analysis:

      1. Younger tenure-track faculty tend to rarely teach introductory courses as large lectures in institutions I have been at. Generally, young, untenured faculty are given teaching reductions during their probationary periods to focus on research and getting grants, which are the primary determinants of whether or not they get tenure.
      2. Tenured active researchers who are enthusiastic and productive about their research generally teach less overall and are less likely to teach intro courses. There are some active research faculty who relish the large-lecture environment and the "showmanship" aspects that it entails, but in my experience those are not typical and most researchers prefer to teach upper-division and graduate courses.
      3. From the study The freshmen who got the biggest boost tended to be less academically qualified students, judged by SAT scores and such, in the hardest subjects. To me, this indicated that the talents being measured are reflective of more basic level information, and perhaps related to improving student organization and study skills. Some adjuncts are excellent at giving the structure and feedback that weak students need (their livelihood may depend upon such skills) whereas other faculty may not have the patience to help get poorly-prepared students up to speed, and their livelihood depends upon other skills such as research, mentoring graduate students and postdocs, and so on.

      The first two points result in a biased sample- tenured faculty teaching intro classes may well be dominated by "dead wood" faculty who have to teach more because they are no longer as productive in research, and are more likely to teach intro courses. I have been in departments where one strategy to get unproductive faculty to retire is to assign them to large intro lectures for non-majors. That is not a recipe for learning success and may be sufficient to bias the results downward as seen in the study. It appears there is just one institution in the study (Northwestern, a private university in the American midwest) and if that is a common practice there, that makes the whole thing pretty moot.

      Another point is that it does take a while for junior faculty to find their teaching footing, particularly in the large lecture-theater classes. Often, small changes in administrative or organizational methods have a big impact on how happy the students are or how much time they put into the class. With greater instructional experience, particularly in large lectures, it is not surprising that a seasoned adjunct instructor may do better by these metrics that a hotshot excited untenured researcher, no matter how enthusiastic the latter is.

      --
      It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
    6. Re:Alternative Metrics by fermion · · Score: 1
      I guess we should distinguish between entertaining and providing entertainment. Many of my professors were entertaining. Most of the younger TAs and lecturers provided entertainment, if only eye candy. Good professors know how to keep a lecture interesting through varying of content and pattern. One of my professors would break up the lecture with his adventures at los alamos.

      When I was young I saw Richard Feyman, had to be end of high school. It was the most engrossing couple hours of my life. A few years later when I took Modern, it motivated me to learn how to do a rudimentary Feynman Diagram. Admittedly he is unique in that he is an entertainer who was a Physicist, and not just a physicist who happens to play bongos.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  4. Isn't thsi what we always knew by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Informative

    Candidates at Universities get the opportunity to work with people who are pioneering their fields. They are often brilliant, will nurture talent when they see it, but can be a bit eccentric and will respond to something like "I can't remember how to do integration by parts" with a reference to a textbook or by passing them on to a more able student.

    This works well for the brightest, and reasonably well for the average - but it has long been known that those of less ability (who are still bright by average population standards) would do better in a technical college. Here they would be taught by dedicated teachers, who would do little or no research.

    Is the solution to make Universities more like technical colleges? Well, maybe now they are looking at taking closer to 50% of all kids instead of the 10% that hey did decades ago then it is. We should not forget that even if we need to add tuition staff then to turn out new scientific pioneers we still need the research professors, even though they may not be the best teachers for all students.

  5. Yes, but... by c · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hate to talk about correlation/causation, but there's typically some significant demographic differences between profs with and without tenure.

    My experience is that tenure-track profs were a heck of a lot younger, meshed well with the students, hadn't spent the last 20 years teaching the course, and were more likely to put in more time and effort on the material. Tenured profs also tend to have a lot of things sucking their time (obviously researchers, but department heads and/or deans are worse), so they dump a lot more on the TA's and are pretty tight for office hours.

    I'd be curious to see how things break down when they account for demographic differences. If that's even feasible.

    --
    Log in or piss off.
    1. Re:Yes, but... by EdgePenguin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This seems fairly obvious. Younger faculty relate better to young students. But such a caveat doesn't fit well with a sensationalist press release/headline.

      Its a pretty shitty aspect of western culture (don't know if other cultures experience it or not) that there is mass resentment of other people having any kind of job security. There is the notion that "other people" are all feckless, lazy slobs who must be whipped to work harder by constantly being threatened with redundancy and poverty.

      The worse the economy gets, the stronger this feeling. Whip the Others harder, get the economy going. Leave me and people I know alone - we are hardworking families - kick those Others into working longer hours for lower wages; the fuckers are getting off too lightly. Problem is, this is just a feeling. Actual research into motivation finds that an environment of fear, or even promise of big rewards, does not generate productivity in anything other than menial tasks. Unsurprisingly, most people work better if they aren't constantly stressed.

    2. Re:Yes, but... by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      Ironically, most tenured professors are Democrats.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    3. Re:Yes, but... by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      there is mass resentment of other people having any kind of job security.

      I think it is our acceptance of envy. You see it when people talk about unions and public servants, and you see it in the 99% crowd as well. It's a shame because there are legitimate gripes in there, but they get overshadowed by the blind hatred (which IMHO often starts with envy).

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Yes, but... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      This is how the Democrat Party wins elections.

      The Republicans feed off of this, too - only they direct their ire at the unions and public employees. I'd say Republicans are more likely to make comments about "ivory tower" academics as well. I'm registered Republican, and I find myself rolling my eyes at much of the literature that comes my way from GOP candidates.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:Yes, but... by DudeTheMath · · Score: 2

      Northwestern actually has a cadre of professional instructors, non-tenure-track, but not adjunct, either: These faculty are hired on a three- to five-year contract, with some benefits, and have no duties besides teaching. If they do that well, they can usually expect to have their contracts renewed. For many who love teaching and have less of an interest in (or, perhaps, little flair for) research, it's not a bad gig. Adjuncts, on the other hand, are the press gang of academia, paid by the credit hour, with no benefits and no security (as I mentioned in another response, a tenure-track faculty member might have an upper level class cancelled due to low enrollment and find him- or herself abruptly assigned to a "STAFF" intro course, and, hey, there go some adjunct's expected three credit hours that were supposed to pay the cable bill this fall).

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    6. Re:Yes, but... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I'm registered Republican, and I find myself rolling my eyes at much of the literature that comes my way from GOP candidates.

      So why stay registered? It seems to me that it sends a pretty clear message that, as much as you roll your eyes, your vote is secured, thus your opinion can be safely ignored. Unregister and make them earn your vote.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    7. Re:Yes, but... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Because we have a stupid primary system with only two parties. When I was in NYC, I registered Democrat so that I could vote in the election that actually determined the winner: the primary. With the exception of oddball Bloomberg, there were hardly any Republican candidates at all in the NYC November elections, and the ones that were on the ballot were generally unopposed in the primary. It's stupid, but there you go.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:Yes, but... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I'm fine with your characterization. I think the choice of what word to use to describe it is somewhat unimportant, the fact is that the phenomenon exists.

      Democrats tend to disfavor "fat cats" and the "1%", while Republicans tend frown upon unions, public employees, and the the "ivory tower". I just wanted to point out that the mechanism by which they come to hate these people is pretty much the same. I called it "envy", but I'm happy to call it "dislke of those who are protected from competition".

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  6. Awful professor story by TWiTfan · · Score: 2

    I kid you not. I had a teacher in college who would spend all his classes talking about his friends in the Senior Olympics (this was a Sociology of Religion class, but he did the same in all his classes). Then he would periodically give a test that had nothing to do with the book or anything he said in class (i.e., no Senior Olympics questions). Everyone would fail, and he would grade on a curve. I scored the highest raw test grade in the class for the semester with a 46 (only thanks to a pretty good general knowledge).

    Of course he had tenure, and of course everyone knew about his antics. A few years later he fell over dead while training for the Senior Olympics (again, I couldn't make this shit up if I tried). He would not be missed.

    --
    The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    1. Re:Awful professor story by EdgePenguin · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Quick solution to that. Don't take "sociology of religion". I'm willing to bet your physics, maths and engineering professors don't dick around like that.

    2. Re:Awful professor story by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? That's where you got into the REAL autistics and nutballs! Only the psychology profs were worse than them.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    3. Re:Awful professor story by darkstar949 · · Score: 1

      I'm willing to bet your physics, maths and engineering professors don't dick around like that.

      Nope, the physics professor I had spent the first day talking Sikhism and the Harmandir Sahib (the Golden Temple) and it would come up from time to time after that, although he did some more time actually talking about physics. Sadly, he had a very thick accent so you really had to pay attention to figure out what he was saying to determine if it was even relevant.

    4. Re:Awful professor story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm willing to bet your physics, maths and engineering professors don't dick around like that.

      Generally, no, but there's always exceptions. I had a Computer Science professor who was the biggest narcissistic, egotistical asshole I've ever met, and all he ever did was talk about how great he was and how he worked at JPL so we should all bow down and worship him.

      Then I graduated and discovered the difference between real life and government work. Oddly enough, government work is pretty similar to academia in that you actually don't have to accomplish a goddamn thing, can write a paper about it, and then celebrate how great you are.

    5. Re:Awful professor story by intermodal · · Score: 1

      I had a similar issue with a literature professor (freshman-level general requirement course, naturally taken in my final semester) who basically would spend 50% of our class-time bitching about how he didn't have enough time to properly teach the material required in the course. It's a good thing he wasn't tenured, he probably would have increased it to at least 90%

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    6. Re:Awful professor story by EdgePenguin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What a load of bullshit. Academic publishing - at least in the hard science - is not a record of lack of accomplishments. Look at some of the Planck papers for fucks sake. As for government work - explain the Apollo program. Explain how the UK NHS achieves similar health outcomes to the US at a third of the cost. Reality doesn't stack up to your rhetoric.

    7. Re:Awful professor story by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      Actually, in Sociology of Religion, you're supposed to STUDY to inbred religious rednecks. Unfortunately, all we ever got to study was the Senior Olympics.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
  7. Interest in Teaching Related to tenure? by parallel_prankster · · Score: 2

    I am not completely in agreement with this study. I only read the Atlantic article, I did not read the study so maybe I missed something. From what I have observed, the younger teachers who were on tenure track in universities were always more focused on getting research grants because that is what helped them get tenure. The older ones were more likely to win best teacher awards. From my just my personal experience of 8 years in grad school I feel like it is just the enthusiasm that some younger teachers show that is infectious and makes you feel like the teacher is good. The older teachers are actually better at drilling down concepts however they were less excited about the material and somehow that transferred to the students as well. Students were more likely to feel bored in their classes. I was a TA and that was a frequent complaint about my advisor but I used to go throw his material and it was fantastic. That said there was one tenured professor who was an okay teacher but left the teacher survey on the last day of classes, on our desks, on the way out muttering "Write whatever you want, nothing can happen to me."

    1. Re:Interest in Teaching Related to tenure? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      From what I have observed, the younger teachers who were on tenure track in universities were always more focused on getting research grants because that is what helped them get tenure.

      That sounds like you agree with the premise; they're not focused on teaching, but on getting grants.

      That said there was one tenured professor who was an okay teacher but left the teacher survey on the last day of classes, on our desks, on the way out muttering "Write whatever you want, nothing can happen to me.

      And that is why it's shocking that anyone is shocked by this study.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Re:Hmmm, Perplexing... by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's a lot more difference than that. They're comparing people who are paid to teach with people who are paid to research in their effectiveness at teaching. If you perceive your job is X, why would you spend a lot of effort on Y? The point that they only compared introductory courses is also relevant. The untenured professors did better in introductory courses. Advanced courses were not compared, so it may be that tenured professors are overall better at teaching advanced and graduate students. Maybe a university needs both to give the best education across the students' course of study.

  9. Re:Science where? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

    It IS science. This is applied sociology.

  10. A very good reason by Trelane · · Score: 1

    That might have something to do with the fact that tenure selection is (almost) entirely based on publications, research, and grants and not on teaching.

    --

    --
    Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
    1. Re:A very good reason by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      At the university I went to there was a professor who was known to be excellent at research but a crappy teacher. He taught an advanced calculus course in the same way a hardcore uber-geek might teach "introduction to computers" to a bunch of barely-computer-literate old folks...he was trying to teach us the right way with a good understanding of all the principles behind the calculations, but it was going over most of our heads, as the course's pass rate showed.

      This went on until a rich guy's daughter took the course and failed. Said rich guy was also the BFF of the dean at the time...only research work for that professor from then on.

      The professor died a few years back, only in his late 50s/early 60s.

      Me and some friends have a great memory of him. We were waiting for class to start and I was messing around with my Treo 180, showing them the new ringtones I loaded on. I played the Star Wars Imperial March and just as it was finishing, he walked up to the podium with perfect timing, we all cracked up. I wonder if he heard the tune and did it on purpose XD

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:A very good reason by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      We had an eccentric history professor in the music department. He had long hair, wore a suit with sandals, and rode a bicycle around campus. He would give two lectures at a time one in English and one in Latin. I was in his class the first year he was there.

      I kind of enjoyed the quirky double lectures as my older sisters learned Latin so they could talk in front me about things they didn't want me to understand or tell our parents about. All the other students were at a loss and struggled the entire year.

      After the final there a was big meeting with the dean that included the entire class, apparently only one person had passed the final. At first they thought I may have cheated but then I told them I wasn't surprised no one else passed it due to all the Latin and in that I had an advantage. They decided they would have to grade the final on a curve excluding my test score.

  11. Gotta be some kind of compensation. by RyanFenton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It would be nice if we could have careful training of each of our precious growing minds, for years and years, at the lowest possible cost, by people who did nothing but deeply care for the interests of who these people were going to be... but having teaching (and research) being one of the lowest quality-of-life jobs, with very low relative pay does mean something.

    The best way we end up compensating for that, historically, is offering other forms of quality of life - more time to prepare outside of teaching, more job security, and some other limited benefits. Take away these things, and you fully transform the role into a job for masochists.

    The cost dynamics never made sense to me - it really wouldn't cost that comparatively much to make teaching a desirably paid position, and the research positions that go along with them. Instead, what we get are colleges charging historically absurd cost increases every year to have, well, better sports teams, I can only guess.

    I guess if this trend continues, we'll just move to compensating them with coupons to Subway, then rail at how so many of them get 20% off for how 'little' they do.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Gotta be some kind of compensation. by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, the cost is enormous.

      Do you know why NBA players get so much money? Because there are less than 500 players and there are no less than 20 million fans. Not only that, but by playing a single game, they can provide entertainment to all of them with no more effort than if there were just a single fan. With a ratio of 40,000:1 and the ability to connect with all of them simultaneously it's easy to get good pay.

      In any given classroom there are 20-40 students (more for cattle classes, fewer for jr/sr classses). Any more and the personal connection which makes teaching such an interactive endeavor is reduced. 30:1 isn't a great ratio for increasing compensation.

      If every NBA fan kicks in an extra $25, you can raise a player's salary by a million dollars a year. If every student kicks in an extra $25, you could raise a teachers salary by $750 - not quite the bump you're looking for to make it a highly desirable pay scale.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Gotta be some kind of compensation. by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      The cost dynamics never made sense to me - it really wouldn't cost that comparatively much to make teaching a desirably paid position, and the research positions that go along with them. Instead, what we get are colleges charging historically absurd cost increases every year to have, well, better sports teams, I can only guess.

      Most of the growth is in the number of administrators. Who don't teach at all.

    3. Re:Gotta be some kind of compensation. by PvtVoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      Most of the growth is in the number of administrators. Who don't teach at all.

      Nuts. There was supposed to be a link there.

    4. Re:Gotta be some kind of compensation. by gizmo_mathboy · · Score: 1

      Which is why we as a society (used to) put money towards education from kindergarten through undergraduate (and nominally masters and doctorate).

      Then the millions of people in a state can put in that $25 to help pay for the cost of thousands of students.

      We did this because an educated populace makes for an educated government.

      Nowadays we are job driven in our educationi and our funding and focus of what we consider valuable has shrunk.

      Public colleges typically get less than 20% of their funding from the state, down from around 30-40%.

      Also, I got as much joy and knowledge from my liberal arts classes as my math, science, and engineering classes.

      So yeah, $25 each from a body of 40 individuals isn't much, but it really comes the rest of us that think an education (and not job training) is important.

      B.S. AAE 1993

    5. Re:Gotta be some kind of compensation. by causality · · Score: 1

      Do you know why NBA players get so much money?

      Because we as a society have fucked up priorities and overvalue things that are relatively meaningless?

      The doctor who finally cures cancer will be anonymous to the general public compared to an NBA player, an NFL player, or the latest shallow whore who can (somewhat) sing with auto-tune.

      I don't argue with your logic about the ratio of players to fans. Rather, I address why there would be so many fans and so much money to be extracted from them. Personally, I just can't get that worked up about other people playing a game, the outcome of which won't affect my life one way or another. I certainly can't identify with that team as though it were an extension of my ego, saying "we won" when I contributed no effort.

      Now get off my lawn.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  12. Re:Hmmm, Perplexing... by EdgePenguin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Except you, and the people publishing this article, have ignored any other contributing factors (like faculty being closer in age to their students for instance.) You jump straight to the conclusion that you like, which is a misanthropic view that everybody apart from yourself (and people you like) are lazy, no-good idiots who need to be booted in the arse constantly in order to do any work. Your problem is that this is simply not true. Human motivation is more complex than that, and people do not in the general case do better jobs if you constantly threaten them - regardless of how that might give you some kind of perverse satisfaction.

  13. Re:Everyone wants research by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

    A surprising number of 4-year colleges want to get on the big grant chuckwagon.

    FTFY

    --
    The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
  14. Re:Stupid fact fuck can't afford ice cream! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Some of the biggest tea party assholes yelling about food stamps are also getting millions of dollars because they are "farmers" and qualify for subsidies. The tea party are stooges... always check out their background before listening to the bullshit coming from their mouths.

    The problem is, if you are a farmer and you don't take the subsidy, you will not succeed in a market full of farmers who do.

    The tea-party farmers may dislike the situation all the more for this, for the feeling of having to do something they find repugnant just to make a living because of government interference in their market. That is not hypocrisy. It is only hypocrisy if they really think the subsidies are great and go around advocating them.

    The solution to food stamps that we can actually implement is to reform our tax codes and otherwise stop doing the things that make businesses want to move jobs overseas. The other great solution is to put into federal prison the people who crashed our economy, making sure they go into the general population of inmates.

  15. Inspiration...or ease? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Informative

    Speaking as a tenured faculty member the conclusion that people employed entirely for their teaching with zero other consideration makes sense...but that does not make it correct and the evidence is rather circumstantial. For a start while having a sessional may cause more students to continue in a particular program is this because they are inspired or is it because they make the material seem simpler (perhaps partly because they may be better teachers but also because they will not complicate matters by introducing their own cutting edge research)? For many students, the perceived ease of a course is a large factor in their decision to take it.

    The other issue is that many tenured faculty have been around for a while and find it increasingly hard to deal with students whose education at high school is getting increasingly worse. It would be interesting to see if the effect is still there at higher level courses where the ever decreasing academic standards and discipline of schools is less of a factor. Non-tenured faculty tend to be younger and so the gap in academic standards between their high school years and now is less so they likely have a better picture of what the incoming students do, or rather, do not know.

    1. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

      Having been to both highschool and university. I find it ironic that anyone at university would be complaining about the educational value of highschool. If you ignore some of the horrendous data points, like large swaths of the US, Highschool is pretty good.

      Having attended the best university in my country, Waterloo, I can say with absolute certainty that university education is complete crap. They take your money, and need to give some small percentage who stick with it a diploma after 3 or 5 years. They don't really care what you do, how well they teach, or if you have the necessary resources in the interim. They really do not care if turn off all the geniuses, and only put out unprepared idiots, they already have your money.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    2. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by EvanED · · Score: 1

      ...is this because they are inspired or is it because they make the material seem simpler (perhaps partly because they may be better teachers but also because they will not complicate matters by introducing their own cutting edge research)

      Speaking as someone who just got his PhD and would like a teaching-focused faculty position in a few years, the study was looking at freshmen courses. I don't think it's a stretch to say that if you're wedging your cutting edge research into an intro class, you're almost certainly doing it wrong.

    3. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      Having been to both highschool and university. I find it ironic that anyone at university would be complaining about the educational value of highschool.

      Try teaching a science class to students who don't understand proportionality, can't convert from feet to meters, and don't know what a logarithm is.

    4. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by BForrester · · Score: 1

      Having attended the best university in my country, Waterloo, I can say with absolute certainty that university education is complete crap.

      Part of the problem may be that you mistakenly believe that your institution is the best in the country. Waterloo rounds out the bottom of the top ten in most listings.

      I agree though that many, if not most undergraduate programs have become rather underwhelming.

    5. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      I believe it was considered the best at what I was taking, but I also find it likely that any student satisfaction surveys probably would rank it pretty low.
      It would be pretty hard to have a worse university. And I guaranty you, that is is not even the best in the province, but it had a good reputation.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    6. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      And were the students any better off after your class? Or was the next teacher lamenting their lacking education even more than you were?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    7. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

      And were the students any better off after your class? Or was the next teacher lamenting their lacking education even more than you were?

      I would like to think that they were better off, but every hour spent teaching them remedial math was an hour spent not teaching them science.

    8. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's a stretch to say that if you're wedging your cutting edge research into an intro class, you're almost certainly doing it wrong.

      Really? As long as you pick your topic and cover it at the right level I do not see a problem. Dark Matter is an excellent case in point: in particle physics we look for it by missing momentum and astronomers detect it using newtonian gravity. Both of these are basic first year physics concepts. Obviously I don't go over the detailed mathematical derivation of a galactic rotation curve but you can cover it in enough detail that students can grasp the concepts.

      Another, even more recent example is talking about inertia and relating the mass of an electron to the Higgs field. Again no maths involved but I think it is worth pointing out to students that some really simple questions that they can ask, like why does an electron have a mass?, have only just been answered. It encourages them to ask themselves such simple, fundamental questions and who knows perhaps one day one of them might become a scientist themselves and find an answer?

    9. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      If you ignore some of the horrendous data points, like large swaths of the US, Highschool is pretty good.

      Really? When I went to secondary school everyone aiming for university - even those taking english - had to take O' level maths which included basic calculus, matrices etc. (see an old paper here). Those taking physics had not only taken A' level maths and were familiar with trig and exponential calculus as well as second order differential equations but were also familiar with applying these to solving problems in physics.

      Compare that to today in Canada where some of the school leavers who have taken the optional "intro to calculus course" (the hardest level maths course offered at high school) have never heard of an integral, have no idea what a complex number is, do not know how to take the scalar product of two vectors and have never used 3D vectors before (so forget the cross product, let alone matrices!).

      The students we take in are just as smart as ever - they can easily learn this stuff given time - the problem is that the school system is not teaching them what they need to be prepared for university and the situation is slowly getting worse, not better.

    10. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      I learned most of those things, but you are right, I do not think we got all of them.

      I think the problem you see is caused by a few different things. First off, we have one less year now; which is huge. We lost the time to learn stuff like integrals. Which is actuality good for universities as they can charge for one more year of schooling, that the state used to provide. So of course many students have never even heard of a integral, that is not part of the curriculum, and that is the universities job to teach now.

      Also highschool is set up differentially than Univ. Highschool is designed to improve everyones eduction, as much as possible. University will just dump the lazy and stupid. So you cannot necessarily differentiate, by grades alone at least, the stupid and the smart.

      A lot more people go to university than they ever did in the past. This means that stupider people, and less dedicated people, are attending university. It is just the place you go after high school unless you are a complete idiot and your family is not dirt poor. And sure most of these people are not really academic, but then they just enroll in some Arts faculty.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    11. Re:Inspiration...or ease? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Addendum:
      So I guess what I am saying is. Sure, students today know less then they did 20 years ago. But that was a concious decision.
      If post-secondary education is not coping well with this change, that is their fault. As far as I am aware, kids today know the curriculum as well as they did 20 years ago, but the curriculum has changed.

      If university is not set up to correctly teacher kids who all know at least what is mandated in the curriculum, and what the university itself calls for in their enrollment rules, that is the university's problem. And a failure of of its educational system.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    12. Re: Inspiration...or ease? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Exactly how do you see it as a university's fault that it is having trouble coping with less educated students? If students arrive with less education then there are two alternatives: either you lower the standards required for a degree or you lengthen the time taken to get a degree. Those employing students would not be happy if we lowered our standards nor do we want to. However governments control the length of degree program's and will not let us increase them to a 5 year degree. In fact the only solution I see is with MOOCs - we could imagine designing courses in basics calculus etc and having high school students take these online instead of the low quality high school curriculum. I'm Not sure how the high schools will cope with us poaching their students though...but if they are not going to educate them properly someone needs to. I would also disagree that the current system provides educate to everyone: it provides education to the lowest common denominator. Some how the sports system manages to cope with students of differing degrees of ability and nobody objects to the most athletic students being given opportunities to improve their abilities. So why can we not have a curriculum for the brighter students which meets their needs and prepares them better fora university education? This is not only fair it is what society should want - these bright sparks are the ones who may well end up creating jobs for others if we help them achieve their full potential.

    13. Re: Inspiration...or ease? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Less education was a conscious decision for the high school, and they are not having trouble adapting to this change. And honestly, if you were not going on to university, there probably was no reason for the 13th grade, so it sort of makes sense to be gone.

      If the courses that university is still teaching first years have not adapted to a known change for like a decade, that is their fault, not the high schools. University knows what it is getting, it reviews every single student for proficiency, and the necessary pre-requisites. If the students are not ready for university, than either make some online course a necessity, that they can take over the summer, or change university to actually be compatible with 100% of their enrollees.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    14. Re: Inspiration...or ease? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      If the courses that university is still teaching first years have not adapted to a known change for like a decade, that is their fault, not the high schools.

      You are completely missing the point - Universities cannot adapt to this change without lower standards or addition time to teach both of which are constrained. Certain programs have external qualification standards that must be met e.g. medicine, engineering etc. and governments will not allow us to extend the length of programs because it would cost them money. So what do you suggest? We get the professional bodies to lower the qualification standards and you can then be operated on by a half-qualified surgeon assuming the hospital building you are in does not collapse first because it was built by a half-qualified engineer?

      The decision to lower high school education was anything but a conscious decision. Indeed the rhetoric from governments, school boards and even some teachers has always been that they are pushing excellence and that standards are as high as ever. Have you ever seen any government/school board/teacher anywhere advertize a new school curriculum update as lowering standards so more students can pass? The two possibilities are that either these groups are telling one massive lie or else the lowering of standards has been an unconscious result of curriculum changes and updates. Personally I tend to follow the motto "never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence" so I think the latter is the most like scenario.

  16. Hard work is the best teacher by elashish14 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can't rely on every instructor that you have in school to be the best. And to make things even more complicated, just because a bunch of other students consider an instructor to be good, does not mean that his/her teaching style will be good for you. For example, I learned the most when I had teachers that kept lectures to a minimum but designed very thoughtful and enlightening homework assignments, problem sets, etc. while other students preferred instructors who explained everything plainly while providing minimal assignments (this prevents you from thinking critically on your own).

    If you want to get the maximum mileage out of your college experience, learn how to use the resources around you, whether they be textbooks, the internet, other students, and junior instructors. If you walk in expecting all your instructors to do the majority of the work in teaching you, then you're doomed from the start.

    --
    I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    1. Re:Hard work is the best teacher by PPH · · Score: 1

      One of the "best" instructors I had in college was a professor who was absolutely worthless. He'd spend the entire class scribbling equations on the blackboard, rarely turn around to address the class and never allow an interruption, either for a question or to point out where he'd fucked something up 10 minutes ago. So anyone that wanted to get anything out of the class (a 400 level requirement for my major) had to take the textbook home and figure it all out for themselves.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Hard work is the best teacher by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Here again, this is a problem the administration has forced onto the students. My university implemented two policies just recently that really made me ill. The first: you are limited to 4 drops your whole undergraduate career. Why? Cause too many students were dropping classes, they thought. Why were these students dropping? Oh, we don't know, but we are going to call it "class sampling". Did you offer these students a syllabus before registration, so they could see what they were registering for? Oh of course not, there's not possible way we could get professors to do that!

      The second issue also had to do with registration. Since the advent of online registration, there has been this thing called a "waitlist" where you put your name down to get into a class should a seat become available. Just what you might expect from something called a waitlist. In times past, you could waitlist for multiple sections of a course. This was smart, because as soon as you got into one, your spot on the other lists was cleared for the next student waiting. You really weren't causing any inconvenience by doing this. However they have banned multiple section waitlists. But the worst thing is that before, should you register for one section (say, with a professor you don't know or perhaps have had before and know you don't like), you can no longer waitlist a different section with a professor you know is good.

      The administration wants to act like a seat in a class is a commodity and they are all equal. They definitely are not. The professor makes a huge difference, and most students know that. We found ways to use their system to get the professors we wanted, and we have now been punished for it. This isn't that say it's always a case of good vs. bad professors, I have found I like professors that many others didn't like, and vice versa. It's really a learning style issue. I like classes with a minimum of interaction, optional lecture attendance, rigorous tests, and that's mostly it. Some students like a lot of interaction, attendance grades, online homework assignments, etc.

      Though let me add, all of the lectures with optional attendance, I have made every possible effort to show up for. Every lecture with required attendance, I have wanted to kill myself the whole time. Why? Because just like the administration's efforts, if you find yourself in the position of having to force students to do something they ought to be doing of their their free-will, you have a bigger problem you need to fix.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
  17. Thoughts by sesshomaru · · Score: 2

    "After all, you don't get tenure by dazzling 18-year-olds with PowerPoints. "

    I don't know about the study, but the article is garbage.

    The professor's job is not to entertain students, it's to teach them. Sometimes, students don't like the teachers who force them to work hard and learn the material.

    That's why we have tenure.

    --
    "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    1. Re:Thoughts by EvanED · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sometimes, students don't like the teachers who force them to work hard and learn the material. That's why we have tenure.

      Um no, it's not.

      University faculty have tenure because donors to universities would sometimes force the university to fire faculty who took up controversial topics in the wrong direction.

    2. Re:Thoughts by drkoemans · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points I'd mod you up. Most commenters seem to believe that tenure is about prestige or money. That may be true in practice but tenure was originally developed for the reason you stated, to protect faculty and provide the freedom to openly discuss controversial ideas. That said I'm not certain tenure it its current form is ideal and is probably due for a shake up.

  18. Yet another research that confirms common sense by Cigarra · · Score: 2

    Tenured professors are old and grumpy, non-tenured professors are young and eager. Guess which ones get along better with students?

    --
    I don't have a sig.
    1. Re:Yet another research that confirms common sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Only retards stereotype.

  19. Some schools are aware of this by sandytaru · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My husband just turned in his tenure portfolio. While the usual "two publications, community service, blah blah" is all in there, his school weighs his student evaluations as a full third of the requirements for tenure. So any prof who neglects students at his school in order to focus on research is going to have a tougher time justifying the promotion.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    1. Re:Some schools are aware of this by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      So perhaps it isn't that tenured professors are not as "good", it's that they're meaner and tougher and expect more out of their students since they know their evaluations aren't as important any more.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    2. Re:Some schools are aware of this by stymy · · Score: 1

      Such a policy might result in a massive drop in the difficulty of courses, and thus the quality of the institution. From my experience, students will give glowing reviews to easy teachers and crucify teachers that actually have solid standards for grading and stick to them (so those that won't bellcurve a class's grades if the people in the class don't understand the content).

  20. Re:apk is the worst teacher by webmistressrachel · · Score: 1

    Now that he's gone, and the troll that was stalking and mimicking him has gone, we seem to miss them...

    Either that, or this is his way of being remembered!

    --
    This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
  21. Yeah, the sun comes up in the east, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is NOT news. Back in the mid-70's my advisor said "I love to teach. Except teaching freshmen. That a chore that's assigned to the junior faculty member". Teaching 10-20 people who give a flip vs. the maddening horde looking for a ticket punch is night and day.

    And given that instructors are paid to teach, they sorta have to work to get good ratings. Tenured profs, particularly at large schools are there to lend status and bring in grants.

  22. Re:Hmmm, Perplexing... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Actually, the GP is correct: Tenured professors generally didn't get there by being good teachers. Most involve heavy research and the ability to get and maintain grants for that research - neither of which makes for a good teacher. If you throw a bunch of people into a room who want to be professors, some will want to teach (a good selector, but not perfect, for good teaching), some will want to research. All will be required to teach classes. If the ones that do lots of research end up with tenure more frequently, that leaves the lousy researchers and a mixed pool of good and bad teachers. The good teachers now make up a larger percentage of that "non-tenured" pool. Self selection has elevated people who are good researchers to a tenured position. That isn't to say that they're not good teachers, but their efforts are channeled to a different purpose.

    I'm sorry if you feel that your tenure position somehow stigmatises you as a poor teacher.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  23. After that catastrophe ... by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    Of an educational study last week (on /.), I am glad to see at least someone knows the rudiments of conducting a decent study.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  24. Prof vs non-Prof by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    I have no idea which of my profs were tenured, But I do know which were not professors and which simply graduate students, or business professionals.

    In my experience, almost universally, professors suck at teaching.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  25. I've been both by supercrisp · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've been both a non-tenure-track (NTT); I am now on a tenure-track (TT) professor; and I will soon be a tenured professor. I've been in the position of evaluating non-tenure-track instructors. (First off, a correct on the terms of art: very seldom is a NTT faculty member titled "professor.") In my experience, yes, NTT faculty are much better teachers. From working as an NTT faculty member, working with NTT faculty, and having them as close friends, I can say that there are three reasons that NTT faculty are better teachers. 1) They are younger and consequently fresher and have fewer family obligations. They are typically single. When coupled, they don't yet have or don't plan to have kids. 2) They are under constant threat of losing their jobs, so they work very, very hard--much harder than should be expected of people working for, often, about $35k/year, sometimes more, but generally not over $40k/yr. 3) NTT faculty are teachers only. They are not distracted by research obligations nor by substantial obligations to develop/run the program. ALL THAT SAID, I don't think hiring lots of NTT faculty is a good thing, at least as it is done now. Such faculty are treated as disposable, paid just enough to keep them around a few years, and worked hard enough that they will burn out pretty soon anyway. That may be good for the students (as long as that student is planning on pursuing graduate work that will lead to one of these dead-end jobs), but it's not ethical. Granted, to some, those salaries I listed sound pretty good, but keep in mind that level of pay is not enough to support a family and it is often further reduced by the need to repay the costs of graduate education. The answer may well be to admit fewer graduate students, produce fewer doctorates. But, a lot of the quality I saw in the instruction of NTT faculty was the result of very strong educations; many of those faculty were electing to pursue significant and demanding research projects on their own dime/time. So the undergraduates (and the employing institutions) are often effectively getting the benefits of a young professor without actually paying for a young professor. That may sound good, until you're the person in a similar situation.

    1. Re:I've been both by supercrisp · · Score: 2

      Typing fast before I go teach, I made some mistakes; the worst was this omission: "As long as that student is NOT planning on pursuing graduate work...." One more item: there's tons of research out there on this already, a lot of it at the MLA and AAUP websites, as well as the New Faculty Majority website.

  26. Academic writing by Arkiel · · Score: 1

    Anything to slow the world-wide circlejerk that is academic writing.

  27. duh by acroyear · · Score: 2

    As if getting Tenure had anything to do with how good a teacher you were...

    --
    "But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
    -- Joe
  28. Selection Bias, re. Requirements for Tenure by balaam's+ass · · Score: 1

    The study was conducted not merely *by* Northwestern University, but *at* Northwestern University. Its universal application is not obvious, given the variety of colleges and tenure requirements available.

    As has been mentioned already, such universities typically reward tenure on the basis of *research* emphasis, not teaching, so the results are hardly surprising.

    I submit that these results will fail to generalize when so-called "teaching colleges" -- those whose primary means of performance review for promotion regards teaching evaluation -- are included in a study. Professors at this colleges honestly are interested in focusing on teaching, and as mentioned above it is often the older tenured faculty who accumulate awards and student accolades for excellence in teaching. Some such teaching college are in the midst of increasing research requirements for faculty as regards promotion & tenure (as well as increasing class sized) -- in short, in efforts to become more like Northwestern. This study suggests that a loss of teaching effectiveness will result. (Do you want the focus to be on teaching, or research? You can't say "both"; there are finite amounts of time and resources available.)

    1. Re:Selection Bias, re. Requirements for Tenure by balaam's+ass · · Score: 2

      ....aaaand typos galore, above.

      /tenured already, so who cares. ;-)

  29. Re:Hmmm, Perplexing... by EdgePenguin · · Score: 1

    Don't have a tenure position, won't ever have one because 'tenure' is not a thing in my country. Doesn't really need to be because we don't have crappy employment law in the first place. Nice attempt at an ad hominem there though.

  30. Even bad profs will teach you a valuable lesson. by mindwanderer · · Score: 2

    Life is imperfect and unjust; quit your moaning, stay on your toes, and make the best of what you are given. If your tenured professor sucks (and for me, most of them did), pull your socks up and study by yourself or with friends. It all goes downhill from here so better get used to it.

    --
    :wq
  31. no rewards by stenvar · · Score: 1

    Tenured or not, universities have plenty of ways to reward and punish faculty. Tenured faculty aren't rewarded for good teaching, they are rewarded for bringing in money, serving in visible positions outside the universities, and generating buzz and publications. So that's where they spend their time and effort.

  32. teaching is not the job of many professors by Goldsmith · · Score: 2

    While teaching is used in evaluating some professors, the best universities and the best professors get the large majority of their funding and fame from research.

    If you're bringing in $1M+ a year in grants and contract research, no university is going to care a bit about your teaching prowess or lack thereof. If you're not able to do that, welcome to the non-tenure track world.

    Graduate education in science and engineering doesn't include pedagogy. If teaching mattered, it would.

  33. Flawed study -- grade inflation by rs1n · · Score: 1

    Full disclosure: I did not pay to read the article. Based on the summary, there are some pretty outstanding flaws. Also, I have not received tenure yet (but will be up for tenure soon). I do spend quite a lot of time off-the-clock (i.e. anywhere not on campus) focusing on how to improve my teaching. I also feel that I am more enthused than some of my older, tenured counterparts. I teach both lower level courses as well as graduate courses. That said, 1. Non-tenure faculty tend to teach lower level courses. From a career standpoint, they are more likely to care about students' reactions to their courses because it could reflect poorly on their tenure portfolio. Grade inflation would not be out of the ordinary. If anything, the results of this study confirm my suspicion that there tends to be more grade inflation among non-tenured faculty. Not only does it make students a bit happier, it means these faculties are less likely to get bad reviews from students (and hence less likely to be fired). 2. Tenured faculty tend to teach more advanced courses. Not only is the material more difficult to learn, one may argue it is more difficult to teach (especially if the students are actually not well prepared due to weak foundations from lower level courses).

  34. That's why they need tenure by goffster · · Score: 1

    So that they can't be fired for being unresponsive to students.

  35. I've known about this for decades by Skapare · · Score: 2

    Tenure evaluations focus on research that brings in money. The people who can do research well and are lousy at teaching are preferred over people who can do teaching well and are lousy at research. The latter group does not bring in the cash. The latter group rarely gets tenure. If you have a Ph.D you are expected to do more research than teaching.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  36. Age, response to reward system other factors by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Let me take a crack at decimating this "made to order results" "scientific" paper.

    First some notes:

    The actual paper is hiding safely away from the world behind a paywall . Where is Aaron Schwartz when you need him to help you take on the depredations of university administrators?... oh yeah, that's right.
    We can only read the abstract, so it's hard to critique because of course the most interesting - and indictable - parts of a paper are :

    1) the methods.. because if the methods are invalid, who *cares* what conclusion was reached?

    2) The statistical analysis because bad math sinks papers

    3) The full conclusions- do 1 and 2 above actually support 3? Often, actually, no.

    and of course somewhere down the line at the bottom of the barrel lay the abstract, living there with it's close cousins, Daily Mail headlines.

    2) This guy's salary is in direct competition for college money with his own class of test subjects' salaries. Enough said.

    So shall we?

    1) Tenure is a function of time. Tenured profs can be expected to be older. Older people are a class of people known to perform differentially on a variety tasks.

    Perhaps the author knew in advance what the age profile of the tenured faculty under study was. Perhaps drawing subjects from such an age profile would be more or less guaranteed to result in a skewed statistic, one where what is actually being measured is - simple aging.

    huh.

    2) Tenured professors are a select group who can be operationally defined as "those who have mastered the incentive system put to them by, oh by administrators like the co-author of this study ! "

    What are those incentives and do they impact the performance of professors ? Do those incentives, for instance, condition the professor to dedicate a substandard amount of time and energy to his or her own research rather than to teaching freshmen? Especially with respect to non-tenured, "whew !, glad got this job !" type employees?

    Do I even need to answer that question? Haven't we all seen it in action? Isn't the person who wrote this paper as acutely aware of this fact as anyone ?

    If I were a professor at this guy's university, I'd be doing a very long slow burn right now. They incentivize me - directly, openly and consciously using words , in the case of my department at my alma mater with words like "don't waste your time preparing for your classes the only thing they care about is you getting your research funded".. I mean literally those are the words from the tenured professors to the non-tenured (but hopeful!) "assistants professors" in the department of my own alma mater.

    Then those same people turn around and use the fact that I did exactly as required against me. Nicely done!

    Sniff sniff.. smells like Management Technique #10,305 aka The Devils Fork -

    EITHER
    fire the employee for not doing as required
    OR
    fire the employee for doing as required.

    It's amusing to see the university system rip its own asshole apart trying to keep itself alive, which is all this is. The tuition party is over, and they know it. Now reality is setting in and they're starting to cannibalize essential functions and relationships. I think that's called "panic".

    You know what the single biggest money maker on campus is? The bookstore. I knew the person who ran ours (a very large university system). The numbers were fucking unbelievable. It's basically an acting subsidiary of the US Mint.

    And you know what they've started to go after, in an attempt to save themselves? The bookstores. The cost of the books to students. That can't be good (for them, not you). and it is a very clear signal that behind the glossy brochures and sprawling sports complexes, administrators are actually shitting their collective pants, throwing anything over board that they can lift.

    Of course, it's all for naught, since no man can lift himself and what's really sinking the university is a combination of the very many weddi

  37. Depends on the field by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

    There are a lot of fields where the adjuncts are retired or semi-retired practitioners.

    When I was in civil engineering, my concrete professor was middle aged, but was still working part time. (I have no idea if he was scouting for talent for his company or not). The adjunct who taught environmental engineering (mostly water treatment) was younger, but actually working in the field. My dad taught law school after he retired 20+ years in the military, and he wasn't tenure track. (which is why he was okay with the joke, 'there are two types of teachers, good ones and tenured'.)

    When I went to grad school for Operations Research (engineering management), I had an adjunct professor who worked at AARP (middle aged), and retired NASA (well past middle aged).

    During my master's in Information Management, I had mostly tenured and tenure-track professors, and the tenure-track were younger than the adjuncts (who were teaching evening classes while working some other job ... including another from AARP)

    All that being said ... there might still be some correlation to age -- even if they don't necessarily teach better, they might be considered more approachable than an older professor that the student have difficulty relating to.

    My problem with tenured professors has been the ones with no current practical experience. I remember some of my co-workers during undergrad (we worked at the unversity's computing center) complaining about a Comp. Sci professor teaching computer security and showing slides obviously 10-20 years old, and insisting things hadn't changed at all.

    Whereas, I took computer security from someone who was well past his 60s, and he had only gotten out of the field a year or two before ... and when some of the students complained that he wasn't teaching the latest tools, he explained that he didn't teach tools at all, because they're just going to change in 2-3 years, and you're better off knowing how they work so you can evaluate if they work for your needs.

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  38. freshmen undergraduates in introductory courses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why are tenured professors teaching freshman introductory courses? They should be teaching upper-level classes. They have lecturers to teach the intro classes.

  39. Who did the study ? by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

    Was it done by a tenured or a non-tenured professor ?

  40. Let's look at the two groups. by Minwee · · Score: 2

    Tenured or tenure-track faculty: Paid reasonably well, have some job security, but had to fight seventeen other applicants to the death in a gladiatorial arena just to be considered for the position. Understand that tenure makes their job completely safe, but reality means that they're always one spilled martini away from being out on the street again.

    Untenured instructors: Generally sessionals, hired for a few months at a time, who need to beg for their own job back at the end of every semester. Rarely given the opportunity to teach the same class twice in a row, often prevented from working more than two or three years at the same school (to encourage them to apply for permanent positions which don't exist, naturally) and would make better money serving coffee to students than teaching them. Sometimes have difficulty refraining from asking "Would you like fries with that?" when handing out assignments or exams.

    Really, it's a wonder any of these people have time for teaching at all. We're not that far away from handing students a list of textbooks to buy at the beginning of the year and then sending them to an empty classroom and asking them to teach one another.

  41. Re:In WHAT discipline/major? by PvtVoid · · Score: 1

    Trick is, you HAVE to be ready to go pro... & the tech interviews pretty much assure that (you either make it thru them, rounds of them, or you don't get employ). 3 of my profs knew it (2 did the same is why - working for a bit, going back to 'chipping away @ the stone' of the degree when time & monies permitted).

    Too bad nobody ever taught you to write.

  42. Re:Science where? by killkillkill · · Score: 1

    Sorry, that's not on the chart

  43. Stupid study by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    First it's by frosh at Northwestern.

    Second it ignores that tenured profs might be doing research most of the time.

    Third it's by Northwestern students.

    Did I mention the Northwestern part?

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  44. Administrators too by Garbonzo+Pitts · · Score: 1

    I believe the results. The next research should be to confirm my suspicion that having a tiny handful of low-paid administrators produces better results than having a large number of over paid self-important administrators.

  45. Matches my experience by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 2

    In college I had some wonderful teachers and some terrible teachers. The wonderful teachers covered the whole spectrum in position, from graduate students to tenured professors. But every single one of the terrible teachers was a tenured professor.

    The way academia works is just messed up, at least in large research universities. You become a professor because you want to do research. You get hired based mainly on your research skills. But once you get hired, you're expected to spend lots of time teaching, even if you don't like doing it and aren't good at it. This makes no sense. Hire researchers who like doing research and are good at it. Hire teachers who like teaching and are good at it. If someone happens to like doing both and be good at both, that's fine. But if they only want to do one, that should be fine too.

    --
    "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
  46. By Sheer Contrast by Baby+Duck · · Score: 1

    'Professionals who are paid entirely to teach, in fact, make for better teachers. Makes sense, right?'

    No. No it does not. The researchers are much more heavily incentivized to win grant money for the school than to teach, which is entirely secondary. Pure teachers merely aren't distracted by all this research, so they stand out by contrast.

    The solution is to have all non-graduate classes taught by pure teachers, but occasionally invite the research professor as a guest lecturer on something he's passionate about.

    --

    "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

  47. Freshman vs upper division or graduate classes by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Is the difference really tenured or non-tenured? Or is it, younger or older.

    Having been to graduate school I'd wager its Freshman classes vs interesting upper division or graduate level courses. Its probably less age and more teaching an uninteresting class. When teaching more interesting classes or classes related to their research the tenured professors probably do a far better job.

  48. Wrong metrics? by heavyion · · Score: 1

    Consider a different explanation of the results. Adjuncts are contracted and likely need good student opinion forms to be re-contracted. That's a big incentive to make a class easy (hence the good grades) and fun (hence the desire for other classes from the same prof.), but not necessarily rigorous and worthwhile. It's really easy to make a class fun and simple and a total waste of time. Much more difficult (but not impossible) to make a class fun, worthwhile, and still simple. I'm speaking from experience as a prior adjunct and now a tenured professor.

  49. Re:apk is the worst teacher by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

    So he wasn't around long enough to get tenure? Well, there goes the control experiment.

    (besides, he wasn't half as funny as that Dr. Bob dweeb.)

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  50. Re:Stupid fact fuck can't afford ice cream! by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

    The solution to food stamps that we can actually implement is to reform our tax codes and otherwise stop doing the things that make businesses want to move jobs overseas.

    Except that most businesses don't pay as much in taxes as they can save by moving jobs overseas. Plus, even with taxes at 0%, if a business can save money by moving jobs overseas, why wouldn't they? Some magic gratitude dust or something? Why don't you actually think about what you're saying?

    The other great solution is to put into federal prison the people who crashed our economy...

    Well, we can agree on that, although I figure we'd disagree on whom those people were.

    ... making sure they go into the general population of inmates.

    Why would we want the rest of the inmates to have that much training for a new career in fraud?

    --
    That is all.
  51. Occam's razor by the+agent+man · · Score: 1

    how about an even simpler explanation: tenured faculty tend NOT to teach introductory courses. If they do then typically they have to because there is nobody else willing or capable. The result: a less than completely excited teacher.

    1. Re:Occam's razor by cowdung · · Score: 1

      Good.. because Introductory courses should be taught by the absolute best instructors. They have the most impact over a student's carreer.

  52. But which type "produces" more geniuses? by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 1

    But which type "produces" more geniuses? I dare to assume that one genius is worth many hundreds (thousands?) of middle of the road scientists that only got into studying for their personal career and not to actually pursue science.

    --

    I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
  53. Study only talks about Northwestern freshmen. by gsiarny · · Score: 1

    The study supports some popular beliefs about tenure-track professors, but people shouldn't be too quick too generalize. This study was very limited.

    From the Atlantic article:
    "Now time for a few disclaimers, some from the paper, some my own. As the authors note, this paper only looks at freshmen. Tenured professors might very well might do better in advanced junior and senior-level courses where they can incorporate their own research and special expertise into their curriculum and have a chance to work with students who've accumulated a bit more specialized knowledge. Also: Northwestern is a tony private university that attracts highly qualified faculty to work as adjuncts and non-tenured instructors. Who knows if these results would hold up at a typical state university. "

    What holds for Northwestern freshmen may not hold for other populations. Such cautions are being ignored by a media (and a few intelligent commentators who should know better) too eager to confirm preconceptions.

  54. evaluation by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    IMO the problem is that teachers in higher education are evaluated on their research and not on their teaching.

    The teacher that devotes time to preparing lectures has less time for research, and is therefore less likely to become a tenured professor that a coworker that is neglecting teaching