NVIDIA Begins Releasing Documentation For Nouveau

sl4shd0rk writes "Nvidia, perhaps inspired by the infamous Torvalds Salute, has decided to do something about its crummy image with Open Source developers. The company has begun to release public documentation on certain aspects of its GPUs. Reactions from developers have been mixed; much of what's already been released wasn't a big mystery, but Nvidia says more is coming and they will also provide guidance in needed areas as well. Linus said, 'I'm cautiously optimistic that this is a real shift in how Nvidia perceives Linux. The actual docs released so far are fairly limited, and in themselves they wouldn't be a big thing, but if Nvidia really does follow up and start opening up more, that would certainly be great. They've already been much better in the ARM SoC space than they were on the more traditional GPU side, and I really hope that some day I can just apologize for ever giving them the finger.'"

Comments

Valve/Steam

[intermodal]

Anyone else think this is a result of Valve's announcement of focus on Linux-based Steam?

Re:Valve/Steam

[digsbo]

That was my first thought as well, though I cynically suspect this new openness from NVidia suggests the Steam box will be AMD based, and NVidia is trying to control damage with this move.

Re:Valve/Steam

[geek]

Anyone else think this is a result of Valve's announcement of focus on Linux-based Steam?

Why would it be? SteamOS will be using the proprietary drivers. This article is about the open source drivers.

Re:Valve/Steam

[luciano.moretti]

That was exactly my thought.

Valve is making a big push into the Linux game space, and is likely putting some pressure on partners to "play nice" with Linux. While Valve isn't likely big enough to cause a complete reversal on their own, I'm guessing that Valve + Shield + success with releasing mobile specs + other internal pressures is causing them to reevaluate their stance in regard to desktop graphics accelerators.

Re:Valve/Steam

[h4rr4r]

I had assumed I somehow magically woke up on April 1st.

Re:Valve/Steam

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely. They like to keep this stuff locked up tighter than a hooker's snatch. SteamOS means millions of new users that care about open source software and that money will be going straight to AMD/ATI since they publish their info.

I have it on good authority that their board of directors mandated this release to prevent fiduciary duty lawsuits.

Re:Valve/Steam

[intermodal]

They like to keep this stuff locked up tighter than a hooker's snatch.

I'm not so sure that analogy means what you think it means.

I have it on good authority that their board of directors mandated this release to prevent fiduciary duty lawsuits.

Nothing like putting the douche in fiduciary, eh?

Re:Valve/Steam

[ifiwereasculptor]

Not really. I think it was a response to the increased fragmentation of display servers. They'd have to support X and Mir and Wayland with their drivers. It's easier to just provide documentation and let the open source drivers do most of the heavy-lifting. Also, AMD's open support has been met with a lot of praise lately, due to DPM being available for the open drivers. Thinking more long-term, the Wintel platform is starting to give signs of decline, so it doesn't hurt NVIDIA to hedge their bets - and the most economical way of doing that is by releasing specs.

Re:Valve/Steam

[stewsters]

Yeah, i was going to post that too. It may also be that Nvidia is worried that AMD will try to gain mindshare among Linux gamers. PS4 is running orbis (~freebsd) with AMD. Developers of C++ games may find it easier to port code to Linux from BSD than in previous generations. If the Steambox idea holds up, and the PS4 is truly indie-friendly, I can see a lot of games being ported.

Re:Valve/Steam

[Anonymous Coward]

Why couldn't they license them for redistribution?

Re:Valve/Steam

[Falkentyne]

I don't think "switching to SteamOS" is even the point of the OS. Sounds like it's basically just an open OS primarily designed for steam branded hardware. I'm sure there will be nothing preventing others from using it in more traditional setting but I don't think Valve expects that to be a big thing.

The goal here isn't to solely make an OS for Steam branded hardware. If you visit the website: http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/ you'll see it's to be made available for off the shelf hardware for anybody to install on their computers and to manufacturers with a small licensing fee. Obviously they'd put in the effort to make this compatible with both AMD/Nvidia offerings and presumably for Intel IGPs as well to appeal to the largest base possible. The more people install the OS the higher the chance they'll be buying and playing steam enabled games.

If you can run also run streaming software for local/online media that would be all I'd need for an OS in the livingroom. Some people might want TV tuner compatibility as well which I see no reason why it can't work. Give me XBMC and Netflix for Steam OS and I'm sold.

Re:Valve/Steam

[MBGMorden]

SteamOS means millions of new users

Potentially, sure.

that care about open source software

You're incredibly naive if you believe that bit.

Re:Valve/Steam

[deviated_prevert]

Intel is counting on Haswell to increase chip sales. AMD is hurting like crazy and the gamer market will not hurt them with consoles. BUT the reality is that Arm SoCs are cutting into both intel and amd. The shine is off the 45-65 watts small space heater chipsets and the race to heat whole rooms with 100 watt plus chips is over.

1000 watt water cooled gamer pc power supplies are a footnote in computing history. Low wattage is more than just a trend it is where computing is heading like it or not. Huge NVidia based cards with leaf blowers attached are a dead end and I think NVidia is starting to realize this. NVidia is in trouble and they know it. Essentially what PC sales are left are all heading down the low power road. NVidia needs to partner with someone soon and a partnership between NVIdia and Amd is not a bad step to avoid a melt down to an all arm and intel duopoly.

It would be a good thing to see them create a real alternative to Intel and produce low wattage embedded boards that knock everything else for six and can run whatever the manufacturer or home brew builder desires. A friendly move towards Linux just indicates to me that Microshaft has given them the willies by going all intel on their Surface products and Asus, Acer, Lenovo and all the rest are jumping on the Haswell bandwagon as well because it is the way Microshaft is heading. I have the sneaking suspicion that Microshaft could care less if RT arm based devices actually sell, perhaps they were created to not sell!

As long as Nvidia does not see the writing on the wall and regards AMD as competition they do not see that Intel is actually blind siding them into oblivion. The market for expensive separate gpus is a dead end Nvidia's ventures into arm SoCs is not enough to save them from what is happening but a joint venture effectively creating an OpenSource product that can run anything including Windows just might! Asus tried to pull the wool over users eyes with a bullshit quick boot of a crippled Linux install in a Windows partition..can't remember what they called it but it was complete bullshit. AMD in combination with Nvidia could really shake things up and do things that would get users excited again, challenge the MPEGLA and included the bad set of codecs, then unlike Samsung don't roll over and take it up the butt, instead tell Microshaft to take a flying f&%k and include support for fat devices and don't pay the turds for it. REBELL FOR A CHANGE and create something which Microshaft is afraid of so that the jerks will run to their lawyers to stop you from selling it like Apple did to Samsung! This is how to be innovative and most importantly get sympathy from the public, nothing helped Samsung to sell the hell out of Galaxy phones more than the Apple bullshit law suits! DO THE SAME THING TO Intel, Apple and Microsoft and their MPEGLA and stupid patents, give them a big taste of their own medicine and make them choke on it, users will be lining up to buck the system and by your products!

Re:Valve/Steam

[Monsuco]

Anyone else think this is a result of Valve's announcement of focus on Linux-based Steam?

Valve, unlike most Linux vendors, probably won't get their panties in a wad over whether or not a driver is "free as in freedom" vs "free as in beer". I'm guessing a SteamOS probably would use the closed source drivers. This anouncement sure helps the Noaveau team, but Valve users will probably just use the NVidia drivers anyway.

Re:Valve/Steam

[Smauler]

Well, it would make Intel very happy if that's the case - AMD's in loads of hurt, so having both the Xbox One and PS4 be AMD based is good news for Intel - it means AMD will not likely fold in the next 5-10 years. And having AMD around means Intel is pretty much free to do what they want as there's still viable competition. AMD was looking fairly dicey and Intel's probably worried it may attract government oversight and investigations. Or worse yet, force AMD's patents to be sold off to many competitors, making it very expensive to license (since Intel and AMD cross-license).

AMD is _not_ in loads of hurt in the graphics market. It's falling behind, but it has contracts to sustain it for a decade to come. nvidia have the better product. That does not mean they will succeed. nvidia is the company we have to worry about, because of their market possibly drying up, their valuation dropping, and a load of other things.

I'll keep with nvidia, just like I kept with 3dfx.

Also, AMD make great chips... I don't hate them, and if they ever make better cards than nvidia, I buy them (I have bought one in the past). Their software is crappy though.

Re:Valve/Steam

[deviated_prevert]

NVidia needs to partner with someone soon and a partnership between NVIdia and Amd is not a bad step to avoid a melt down to an all arm and intel duopoly.

By creating a monopoly in the discrete graphics card market, great idea.

Point was that the discrete graphics card market is dead it is a shrinking small sector and there is not even room for one player! The few computer stores that are left out there only have a few in stock for a very limited PC gaming crowd who are essentially running out of game options as PC gaming is also dying, albeit a slower death than the home desktop pc but it is still dying.

What options do AMD and Nvidia have? They still have good manufacturing facilities and they still both have a decent work force. However individually they are not capable of creating anything truly new and exciting. Asus, Lenovo, Acer, HP, Dell are all moving toward onboard Haswells without either NVidia or AMD discrete graphics in all their offerings. Apple is exclusively all Intel integrated graphics. What market share is there left for them in this equation? The only solution is to blow the works and do something completely radical and totally off the wall essentially screw all of their possible customers and Microsoft by bringing out something huge and different something that will work in either a living room or an office and run whatever the user so chooses except perhaps OS 10.

imagine a low wattage silent pint sized x86-64 computer that blows anything else on the market out of the water with performance and graphics and is smaller than a Mac Mini and at about the same price point. Perfect for gamers or offices or where ever. Nvidia and AMD put together could very easily do it and easily bypass Asus and the like. Steam Linux would instantly be onboard, Microsoft well, you have to pay for their software anyway so what do they matter they are not even in the equation except some will insist on buying their os, Heck the super mini could even be set up to run Windows and a Steam Linux install and the user would not even have to know the difference. Chances are they would not care for that matter as long as they could play games and not hose their Windows machine while doing it. LOL

This might all seem far fetched but is it? Gamers could care less about which OS they run and Windows software home users could care less if the machine is actually tuned to run something other than Windows for games. I look at EA games out west here and guess what the PC games are not exactly flying off the shelves the way they once did. Hell they do not even put PC into their TV adds for NHL Hockey they just advertise it for either playstation or Xbox. Steam Linux on a super mini could turn all this around overnight.

Re:Valve/Steam

[exomondo]

Point was that the discrete graphics card market is dead

Why is it that some people see a decline in a market and translate that to it being 'dead'? I suppose desktops and laptops are dead too? We might as well just ditch them and shift to....what?

it is a shrinking small sector and there is not even room for one player!

Really? In this multi-billion dollar a year industry there is not even room for one player? Why are they even bothering to make them then? If there's not even room for one player then the fact that there are 2 must be catastrophic to their bottom lines, they must be losing money hand over fist just supporting that market!

Re:Valve/Steam

[Jesus_666]

Let's face it: Gaming is dead. PC gaming is dead because of consoles. Console gaming is dead because of smartphones. iOS is dead because of Android and Android is dead because of fragmentation. Physical games are dead because of video games.

We are most likely the last generation that engages in unproductive activities for fun. Yes, even those of us who aren't part of "this generation". Especially them, in fact.

Re:Valve/Steam

[exomondo]

No that's what they have in common and a discrete graphics card hasn't been needed for such things for over a decade, moving those things from a PC to a tablet has no impact on discrete graphics cards.

Re:Linus Torvalds

[Ynot_82]

Torvald's comments to Nvidia were to do with Optimus (their GPU switching stuff), not their closed graphics driver

Apologize? No.

[fahrbot-bot]

I really hope that some day I can just apologize for ever giving them the finger.

There's no need to apologize later Linus. They behaved badly and you called them out on it. If they change their behavior for the better, simply praise them for that then.

Re:where are these tight ones?

[Oysterville]

The sensitive women are who you are looking for, for what should be apparent reasons.

Re:Linus Torvalds

[VortexCortex]

"ABI" - Application Binary Interface. Linux has a stable ABI, he's ranted at noobs who broke the ABI before. "Application" being the operative word here... noticeably inapplicable to drivers and only tangentially related to HAL.

In other words: I'm sorry AC, I'm afraid I can't mean that.

Re:Apologize? Yes.

[Bengie]

Yes he's 12, but in the way that he says what's on his mind and doesn't cripple his communications with political correctness. Linus isn't about telling people "you're doing great!" when they're bad. He calls them out when the fail horribly and makes sure everyone knows about it.

Re:NVIDIA is merely pulling a PR stunt like AMD di

[ifiwereasculptor]

What non-free component is the radeon driver dependent of? AFAIK, radeon is completely free. Even the FSF's approved distros use it, and Stallman is not known for his flexibility. Are you referring to S3TC? The driver is hardly "heavily dependent" on it.

Re:Linus Torvalds

[blackiner]

Sort of. The userspace interface is the ABI that linux keeps constant. Basically all the syscalls, ioctls, and Linus even likes to include the nuances of how they operate as part of the ABI. This is the stuff that must not change, and it does a pretty good job at keeping it constant. Supposedly apps compiled to target the 1.0 kernel can still run just fine on the latest kernel, provided the libraries it links to also maintained good ABI stability.

The ABI breakage that occurs happens with in kernel functions themselves. These are things that are not considered standardized API functions or syscalls that should be accessed by userspace. But, in order to produce closed source drivers for Linux, companies like NVIDIA will need to link to these functions. Linking to these is of course a violation of the GPL, though, so NVIDIA gets around it by writing an open source shim that gets compiled when the driver is installed, which then connects to their more proprietary parts. One of the points of the GPL and allowed in kernel ABI breakage is to make it more difficult for people to keep their drivers closed source and outside the kernel.

Re:Apologize? Yes.

[sjames]

Acting 12 is pretty good in a world of corporations yelling MINE MINE MINE while squabbling like 2 year olds.