NVIDIA Begins Releasing Documentation For Nouveau

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NVIDIA Begins Releasing Documentation For Nouveau

Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday September 24, 2013 @06:38AM from the baby-steps dept.

sl4shd0rk writes "Nvidia, perhaps inspired by the infamous Torvalds Salute, has decided to do something about its crummy image with Open Source developers. The company has begun to release public documentation on certain aspects of its GPUs. Reactions from developers have been mixed; much of what's already been released wasn't a big mystery, but Nvidia says more is coming and they will also provide guidance in needed areas as well. Linus said, 'I'm cautiously optimistic that this is a real shift in how Nvidia perceives Linux. The actual docs released so far are fairly limited, and in themselves they wouldn't be a big thing, but if Nvidia really does follow up and start opening up more, that would certainly be great. They've already been much better in the ARM SoC space than they were on the more traditional GPU side, and I really hope that some day I can just apologize for ever giving them the finger.'"

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Valve/Steam by intermodal · 2013-09-24 06:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

Anyone else think this is a result of Valve's announcement of focus on Linux-based Steam?

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1. Re:Valve/Steam by digsbo · 2013-09-24 06:42 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  That was my first thought as well, though I cynically suspect this new openness from NVidia suggests the Steam box will be AMD based, and NVidia is trying to control damage with this move.
2. Re:Valve/Steam by geek · 2013-09-24 06:44 · Score: 2
  
  Anyone else think this is a result of Valve's announcement of focus on Linux-based Steam?
  Why would it be? SteamOS will be using the proprietary drivers. This article is about the open source drivers.
3. Re:Valve/Steam by luciano.moretti · 2013-09-24 06:44 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  That was exactly my thought.
  Valve is making a big push into the Linux game space, and is likely putting some pressure on partners to "play nice" with Linux. While Valve isn't likely big enough to cause a complete reversal on their own, I'm guessing that Valve + Shield + success with releasing mobile specs + other internal pressures is causing them to reevaluate their stance in regard to desktop graphics accelerators.
4. Re:Valve/Steam by h4rr4r · 2013-09-24 06:44 · Score: 2
  
  I had assumed I somehow magically woke up on April 1st.
5. Re:Valve/Steam by gl4ss · 2013-09-24 06:45 · Score: 1
  
  Why would valve care? they could just run off with closed drivers.
  
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  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
6. Re:Valve/Steam by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-24 06:46 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Definitely. They like to keep this stuff locked up tighter than a hooker's snatch. SteamOS means millions of new users that care about open source software and that money will be going straight to AMD/ATI since they publish their info.
  I have it on good authority that their board of directors mandated this release to prevent fiduciary duty lawsuits.
7. Re:Valve/Steam by intermodal · 2013-09-24 06:49 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  They like to keep this stuff locked up tighter than a hooker's snatch.
  I'm not so sure that analogy means what you think it means.
  
  I have it on good authority that their board of directors mandated this release to prevent fiduciary duty lawsuits.
  Nothing like putting the douche in fiduciary, eh?
  
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8. Re:Valve/Steam by ifiwereasculptor · 2013-09-24 06:50 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Not really. I think it was a response to the increased fragmentation of display servers. They'd have to support X and Mir and Wayland with their drivers. It's easier to just provide documentation and let the open source drivers do most of the heavy-lifting. Also, AMD's open support has been met with a lot of praise lately, due to DPM being available for the open drivers. Thinking more long-term, the Wintel platform is starting to give signs of decline, so it doesn't hurt NVIDIA to hedge their bets - and the most economical way of doing that is by releasing specs.
9. Re:Valve/Steam by WarJolt · 2013-09-24 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  I think embedded and mobile development benefits from open source.
10. Re:Valve/Steam by stewsters · 2013-09-24 06:53 · Score: 2
  
  Yeah, i was going to post that too. It may also be that Nvidia is worried that AMD will try to gain mindshare among Linux gamers. PS4 is running orbis (~freebsd) with AMD. Developers of C++ games may find it easier to port code to Linux from BSD than in previous generations. If the Steambox idea holds up, and the PS4 is truly indie-friendly, I can see a lot of games being ported.
11. Re:Valve/Steam by intermodal · 2013-09-24 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  That assumes a lot. Not everyone will switch distros (or choose SteamOS) when Steam is available for Linux as a whole.
  
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12. Re:Valve/Steam by h4rr4r · 2013-09-24 06:58 · Score: 1
  
  They can't ship the OS with them. Even Ubuntu installs them separately later.
13. Re:Valve/Steam by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-24 07:07 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Why couldn't they license them for redistribution?
14. Re:Valve/Steam by Wootery · 2013-09-24 07:08 · Score: 1
  
  Let's not be short-sighted here: assuming SteamOS drives at least some notable level of adoption of Linux for gaming, nVidia will have an increased interest in being known as a good graphics-card choice on Linux.
  They will stand to benefit by just looking serious about Linux, but more specifically: having good Open Source graphics drivers can only help, even if their proprietary drivers are good to begin with. It will be more readily bundled by distros, will be easier to install, will have reduced kernel compatibility trouble, will keep FOSS purists happy, and might be able to run on a broader range of platforms.
  None of those are specific to SteamOS, but increased adoption makes them more relevant to nVidia's bottom-line
15. Re:Valve/Steam by Threni · 2013-09-24 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  Play nice? Don't be daft. Linux has always been pointless for driver/card manufactures because Linux has never been popular on the desktop. Finally there's a chance people will now use Linux this way and there's some money in it you watch them all crawl out.
16. Re:Valve/Steam by becker · 2013-09-24 07:29 · Score: 1
  
  Releasing the documentation has actually been a lengthy internal process that started long ago. The present timing hasn't been strongly motivated by any external event, although there was a little extra push to release at least one document before the X Developer's Conference.
17. Re:Valve/Steam by flimflammer · 2013-09-24 07:30 · Score: 1
  
  I don't think "switching to SteamOS" is even the point of the OS. Sounds like it's basically just an open OS primarily designed for steam branded hardware. I'm sure there will be nothing preventing others from using it in more traditional setting but I don't think Valve expects that to be a big thing.
18. Re:Valve/Steam by TechyImmigrant · 2013-09-24 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  They like to keep this stuff locked up tighter than a hooker's snatch.
  I'm not so sure that analogy means what you think it means.
  I think he meant to say "tighter than a gnat's chuff", but got lost halfway through the sentence.
  
  --
  I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
19. Re:Valve/Steam by Bengie · 2013-09-24 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  Wine has experimental DirectX support for DX11 because DX11 is an open spec.
20. Re:Valve/Steam by VortexCortex · 2013-09-24 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  "Nun's Snatch"? God's dick is big enough to fuck whole nations...
21. Re:Valve/Steam by TechyImmigrant · 2013-09-24 08:01 · Score: 1
  
  The only nun I ever knew had been enjoying the services of a priest for a long time. She quit the profession eventually. I don't think the analogy holds too well.
  
  --
  I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
22. Re:Valve/Steam by Falkentyne · 2013-09-24 08:11 · Score: 2
  
  I don't think "switching to SteamOS" is even the point of the OS. Sounds like it's basically just an open OS primarily designed for steam branded hardware. I'm sure there will be nothing preventing others from using it in more traditional setting but I don't think Valve expects that to be a big thing.
  The goal here isn't to solely make an OS for Steam branded hardware. If you visit the website: http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/ you'll see it's to be made available for off the shelf hardware for anybody to install on their computers and to manufacturers with a small licensing fee. Obviously they'd put in the effort to make this compatible with both AMD/Nvidia offerings and presumably for Intel IGPs as well to appeal to the largest base possible. The more people install the OS the higher the chance they'll be buying and playing steam enabled games.
  
  If you can run also run streaming software for local/online media that would be all I'd need for an OS in the livingroom. Some people might want TV tuner compatibility as well which I see no reason why it can't work. Give me XBMC and Netflix for Steam OS and I'm sold.
23. Re:Valve/Steam by apcullen · 2013-09-24 08:12 · Score: 1
  
  But they could certainly install them automatically using a post-installation script
24. Re:Valve/Steam by dimeglio · 2013-09-24 08:24 · Score: 1
  
  I'm almost certain nVidia needed time to clean-up their code so it's up to par with OSS coding quality. You don't invite your boss to you house for a party before cleaning things up a little. SteamOS is only a coincidence but who knows, maybe there's some interesting strategy at work.
  
  --
  Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the author.
25. Re:Valve/Steam by AlphaWolf_HK · 2013-09-24 08:35 · Score: 1
  
  I don't think it's for hardware either. I think what they're trying to do is normalize Linux in such a way that makes it more friendly towards game development.
  The current problem with linux is that it varies so heavily from distro to distro that some things might break for some games. Varying kernels, varying window managers, varying this and that...however if you establish a good baseline, that makes things much easier from a support perspective.
  This is an interesting model to adopt by the way. Traditionally if you want a living room gaming platform, you have to create your own hardware and software from scratch, and mass produce it as a loss leader, taking a big initial investment and big risk (one which still hasn't paid off for MS, and Sony has joined the loss club recently as well.) But with this method, you just take an already existing OS and make a relatively small investment to turn it into your platform, and then let hardware manufacturers make hardware that works with it. They'll also pay for their own marketing, which in the process helps promote your platform. This worked for Windows and it worked for Android. I see no reason why it wouldn't work for Steam either.
  The customers could see a benefit over existing consoles because as time passes, buying new hardware for better games doesn't mean throwing out all of your old games (a benefit that traditionally only PC's and smartphones/tablets have enjoyed.)
  
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26. Re:Valve/Steam by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-24 08:38 · Score: 1
  
  Open source drivers for AMD hardware aren't really coming along that well as we had hoped when the specs were first released. I doubt we'd get a good open source Geforce driver even if they released all their hardware specs tomorrow. It'd be nice if in addition to the specs they at least provided a (even closed, but easily interfacable) shader compiler, they've been perfecting that for years.
27. Re:Valve/Steam by MBGMorden · 2013-09-24 08:48 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  SteamOS means millions of new users
  Potentially, sure.
  
  that care about open source software
  You're incredibly naive if you believe that bit.
  
  --
  "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
28. Re:Valve/Steam by citizenr · 2013-09-24 09:41 · Score: 1
  
  Valve is huge into open source GFX drivers - they made a big deal out of Valve-Intel collaboration that let them speed up opengl engine by almost hundred percent directly because they could work with driver source and Intel software engineers.
  
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29. Re:Valve/Steam by citizenr · 2013-09-24 09:41 · Score: 1
  
  That was my first thought as well, though I cynically suspect this new openness from NVidia suggests the Steam box will be AMD based
  oh mah dog! That would be something :) AMD would own gaming market for next 5-10 years.
  
  --
  Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
30. Re:Valve/Steam by tlhIngan · 2013-09-24 10:07 · Score: 1
  
  That was my first thought as well, though I cynically suspect this new openness from NVidia suggests the Steam box will be AMD based
  oh mah dog! That would be something :) AMD would own gaming market for next 5-10 years.
  Well, it would make Intel very happy if that's the case - AMD's in loads of hurt, so having both the Xbox One and PS4 be AMD based is good news for Intel - it means AMD will not likely fold in the next 5-10 years. And having AMD around means Intel is pretty much free to do what they want as there's still viable competition. AMD was looking fairly dicey and Intel's probably worried it may attract government oversight and investigations. Or worse yet, force AMD's patents to be sold off to many competitors, making it very expensive to license (since Intel and AMD cross-license).
  
  Yeah, i was going to post that too. It may also be that Nvidia is worried that AMD will try to gain mindshare among Linux gamers. PS4 is running orbis (~freebsd) with AMD. Developers of C++ games may find it easier to port code to Linux from BSD than in previous generations. If the Steambox idea holds up, and the PS4 is truly indie-friendly, I can see a lot of games being ported.
  Make that gamers in general, because all next-gens are using AMD chips. NVidia may hate the console business, but it does generate a lot of PR for AMD, and if AMD comes out with a mobile chip, that's going to have a fair bit of mindshare.
  All in all, Intel's in a good spot - with AMD making console chips, they've got steady cashflow and will survive (and console CPUs may consume enough fab time that AMD may only be able to produce limited amounts of regular PC chips - meaning Intel will end up having to make up for the shortfall in CPUs for servers and desktops.
  AMD is in a good spot - they have good income for the next 5+ years to stem the red tide and provide competition for Intel.
  The only one losing out is NVidia - they have to compete hard for attention now.
31. Re:Valve/Steam by tlhIngan · 2013-09-24 10:23 · Score: 1
  
  I think embedded and mobile development benefits from open source.
  Only in that you can get a ready made embedded OS on the cheap.
  Proprietary stuff it depends - partners of SoC vendors (you usually have to be one in order to use their stuff) get access to documents and source code to what gets turned into a binary blob a lot of the time.
  So embedded OEMs and vendors can get access to the code if they need it, make changes to suit them build it and ship it. As far as they're concerned, it's "open source" to them.
  They even get access to the private documentation too, but like most SoC vendors, the documentation typically sucks. If you're lucky, all you get is a register list and have to figure out how something works on your own (if you're a partner, you mean your support contact who'll answer your questions). If you're really lucky, you'll get a document telling you how it works and how to drive it. If you're unlucky, you'll just get an abbreviated register list.
32. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-24 10:41 · Score: 1
  
  will keep FOSS purists happy
  I doubt that's a concern at all given that Steam is a distribution mechanism primarily for non-free DRM software.
33. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-24 10:55 · Score: 1
  
  SteamOS means millions of new users that care about open source software
  I highly doubt that, in fact the users will primarily be using it for closed-source non-free DRM software, they don't care about open source.
34. Re:Valve/Steam by Wootery · 2013-09-24 11:05 · Score: 1
  
  You could be right - they've not cared before.
  If I understand correctly, nouveau beats the equivalent Open Source driver for AMD's chips - nVidia might be thinking of this is as a way to stay well ahead of AMD when it comes to Open Source Linux drivers.
35. Re:Valve/Steam by gagol · 2013-09-24 12:12 · Score: 1
  
  GPL?
  
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  Tomorrow is another day...
36. Re:Valve/Steam by deviated_prevert · 2013-09-24 12:12 · Score: 2
  
  Intel is counting on Haswell to increase chip sales. AMD is hurting like crazy and the gamer market will not hurt them with consoles. BUT the reality is that Arm SoCs are cutting into both intel and amd. The shine is off the 45-65 watts small space heater chipsets and the race to heat whole rooms with 100 watt plus chips is over.
  1000 watt water cooled gamer pc power supplies are a footnote in computing history. Low wattage is more than just a trend it is where computing is heading like it or not. Huge NVidia based cards with leaf blowers attached are a dead end and I think NVidia is starting to realize this. NVidia is in trouble and they know it. Essentially what PC sales are left are all heading down the low power road. NVidia needs to partner with someone soon and a partnership between NVIdia and Amd is not a bad step to avoid a melt down to an all arm and intel duopoly.
  It would be a good thing to see them create a real alternative to Intel and produce low wattage embedded boards that knock everything else for six and can run whatever the manufacturer or home brew builder desires. A friendly move towards Linux just indicates to me that Microshaft has given them the willies by going all intel on their Surface products and Asus, Acer, Lenovo and all the rest are jumping on the Haswell bandwagon as well because it is the way Microshaft is heading. I have the sneaking suspicion that Microshaft could care less if RT arm based devices actually sell, perhaps they were created to not sell!
  As long as Nvidia does not see the writing on the wall and regards AMD as competition they do not see that Intel is actually blind siding them into oblivion. The market for expensive separate gpus is a dead end Nvidia's ventures into arm SoCs is not enough to save them from what is happening but a joint venture effectively creating an OpenSource product that can run anything including Windows just might! Asus tried to pull the wool over users eyes with a bullshit quick boot of a crippled Linux install in a Windows partition..can't remember what they called it but it was complete bullshit. AMD in combination with Nvidia could really shake things up and do things that would get users excited again, challenge the MPEGLA and included the bad set of codecs, then unlike Samsung don't roll over and take it up the butt, instead tell Microshaft to take a flying f&%k and include support for fat devices and don't pay the turds for it. REBELL FOR A CHANGE and create something which Microshaft is afraid of so that the jerks will run to their lawyers to stop you from selling it like Apple did to Samsung! This is how to be innovative and most importantly get sympathy from the public, nothing helped Samsung to sell the hell out of Galaxy phones more than the Apple bullshit law suits! DO THE SAME THING TO Intel, Apple and Microsoft and their MPEGLA and stupid patents, give them a big taste of their own medicine and make them choke on it, users will be lining up to buck the system and by your products!
  
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37. Re:Valve/Steam by gagol · 2013-09-24 12:15 · Score: 1
  
  But somehow he only impregnated one woman 2046 years ago, and did not have the balls to tell her himself, He had to send an "angel". Basically, "God" live in his mother's basement and is universally shy.
  
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38. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-24 12:40 · Score: 1
  
  NVidia needs to partner with someone soon and a partnership between NVIdia and Amd is not a bad step to avoid a melt down to an all arm and intel duopoly.
  By creating a monopoly in the discrete graphics card market, great idea.
39. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-24 13:59 · Score: 1
  
  GPL?
  Many companies ship the linux kernel with proprietary drivers, have a look at Android smartphones for many examples.
40. Re:Valve/Steam by gagol · 2013-09-24 14:35 · Score: 1
  
  Hence the "?", thank you for the details.
  
  --
  Tomorrow is another day...
41. Re:Valve/Steam by gagol · 2013-09-24 14:38 · Score: 1
  
  Well, I am one and knows others. I live in a very small village. Not hard to believe at least 2 millions people worldwide is interrested in open tech, have the means to buy the SteamBox+Games and will. Unless you count only USA as the whole world, your premise is badly broken.
  
  --
  Tomorrow is another day...
42. Re:Valve/Steam by Monsuco · 2013-09-24 14:42 · Score: 2
  
  Anyone else think this is a result of Valve's announcement of focus on Linux-based Steam?
  Valve, unlike most Linux vendors, probably won't get their panties in a wad over whether or not a driver is "free as in freedom" vs "free as in beer". I'm guessing a SteamOS probably would use the closed source drivers. This anouncement sure helps the Noaveau team, but Valve users will probably just use the NVidia drivers anyway.
  
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43. Re:Valve/Steam by Smauler · 2013-09-24 14:44 · Score: 2
  
  Well, it would make Intel very happy if that's the case - AMD's in loads of hurt, so having both the Xbox One and PS4 be AMD based is good news for Intel - it means AMD will not likely fold in the next 5-10 years. And having AMD around means Intel is pretty much free to do what they want as there's still viable competition. AMD was looking fairly dicey and Intel's probably worried it may attract government oversight and investigations. Or worse yet, force AMD's patents to be sold off to many competitors, making it very expensive to license (since Intel and AMD cross-license).
  AMD is _not_ in loads of hurt in the graphics market. It's falling behind, but it has contracts to sustain it for a decade to come. nvidia have the better product. That does not mean they will succeed. nvidia is the company we have to worry about, because of their market possibly drying up, their valuation dropping, and a load of other things.
  I'll keep with nvidia, just like I kept with 3dfx.
  Also, AMD make great chips... I don't hate them, and if they ever make better cards than nvidia, I buy them (I have bought one in the past). Their software is crappy though.
44. Re:Valve/Steam by Smauler · 2013-09-24 15:22 · Score: 1
  
  The current problem with linux is that it varies so heavily from distro to distro that some things might break for some games. Varying kernels, varying window managers, varying this and that...however if you establish a good baseline, that makes things much easier from a support perspective.
  I still run Vista as my gaming operating system. It's getting on for a decade old, both my system and Vista, which I bought at the same time. I've upgraded the graphics card to a 460GTX (about the best my motherboard can handle, with its PCI express 1 interface). Processor is a core 2 duo (though a relatively quick one).
  This is the problem facing Linux... people can run old systems and old MS operating systems and they do work if you know what you are doing. I can play any game I want now, with my system I bought almost a decade ago, and it will run well. There's no reason to switch
  I am going to upgrade soon though....and I'll still probably keep my copy of Vista for games.
45. Re:Valve/Steam by Narcocide · 2013-09-24 15:42 · Score: 1
  
  Well, by many other accounts in the same book, God's own visage is terrifying, so he often sends his servents when his intent is not to scare the shit out of the recipient of the message.
46. Re:Valve/Steam by Narcocide · 2013-09-24 15:53 · Score: 1
  
  You might be surprised. I'd only try SteamOS under the pretext it would be easier to integrate with Steam than Debian, and less insecure/pointlessly obfuscated than Ubuntu. Nobody else I know who uses Steam uses it on Linux (despite the demonstrated framerate improvements in tf2/l4d2) because Linux itself is perceived as too hard to install and use. All SteamOS has to do is keep me satisfied and be easier to get up and running with optimized hardware 3d accerlation and a Steam client than Ubuntu or Windows. If they can pull that off they really could rake in millions of new users that "care" about open source software, even if most of those are just their own former Windows client users who are only looking for any upgrade path that doesn't include Windows 8.
47. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-24 16:10 · Score: 1
  
  To elaborate further there are provisions to allow for non-free code to link to the kernel using its external interfaces. Though there is also a mechanism to override that such that certain interfaces can be marked such that they can only be linked to by GPL-compatible licensed code. I find the latter to be very anti-freedom and user-hostile though.
48. Re:Valve/Steam by bill_mcgonigle · 2013-09-24 16:14 · Score: 1
  
  You're incredibly naive if you believe that bit.
  You just missed all of those Android users being branded as 'linux zealots'. Oh, wait...
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
49. Re:Valve/Steam by bill_mcgonigle · 2013-09-24 16:18 · Score: 1
  
  + other internal pressures
  There was always the rumor that some things "couldn't be released" because of the patent minefield (that every vendor was certainly infringing on dozens of bogus patents both from other vendors and potential trolls). Perhaps some of those have expired.
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
50. Re:Valve/Steam by jones_supa · 2013-09-24 17:41 · Score: 1
  
  Pitiful as the drivers used to be pretty decent but you can't install just the driver anymore. You have to have their fscking shit catalyst control center with it.
  True. The installer forces CCC to be installed (unless you get the plain driver via Windows Update). But after that you can actually make your configuration changes in CCC and then just close it (and possibly make it so that it does not run on startup at all). The driver will still remember the settings.
  One thing I noticed, under Linux CCC is a native app which uses Qt and I was pleasantly surprised how fast it runs compared to the .NET version under Windows. On some computers the Windows version takes multiple seconds to pop up the window and then when you use it, you can see how it crawls through drawing the UI elements. Additionally the installer is one of those apps which have a progress bar which makes no sense: it swipes constantly from empty to full during the installation. The Windows 8 marching pearls animation would be better suited for the purpose.
51. Re:Valve/Steam by deviated_prevert · 2013-09-24 17:49 · Score: 2
  
  NVidia needs to partner with someone soon and a partnership between NVIdia and Amd is not a bad step to avoid a melt down to an all arm and intel duopoly.
  By creating a monopoly in the discrete graphics card market, great idea.
  Point was that the discrete graphics card market is dead it is a shrinking small sector and there is not even room for one player! The few computer stores that are left out there only have a few in stock for a very limited PC gaming crowd who are essentially running out of game options as PC gaming is also dying, albeit a slower death than the home desktop pc but it is still dying.
  What options do AMD and Nvidia have? They still have good manufacturing facilities and they still both have a decent work force. However individually they are not capable of creating anything truly new and exciting. Asus, Lenovo, Acer, HP, Dell are all moving toward onboard Haswells without either NVidia or AMD discrete graphics in all their offerings. Apple is exclusively all Intel integrated graphics. What market share is there left for them in this equation? The only solution is to blow the works and do something completely radical and totally off the wall essentially screw all of their possible customers and Microsoft by bringing out something huge and different something that will work in either a living room or an office and run whatever the user so chooses except perhaps OS 10.
  imagine a low wattage silent pint sized x86-64 computer that blows anything else on the market out of the water with performance and graphics and is smaller than a Mac Mini and at about the same price point. Perfect for gamers or offices or where ever. Nvidia and AMD put together could very easily do it and easily bypass Asus and the like. Steam Linux would instantly be onboard, Microsoft well, you have to pay for their software anyway so what do they matter they are not even in the equation except some will insist on buying their os, Heck the super mini could even be set up to run Windows and a Steam Linux install and the user would not even have to know the difference. Chances are they would not care for that matter as long as they could play games and not hose their Windows machine while doing it. LOL
  This might all seem far fetched but is it? Gamers could care less about which OS they run and Windows software home users could care less if the machine is actually tuned to run something other than Windows for games. I look at EA games out west here and guess what the PC games are not exactly flying off the shelves the way they once did. Hell they do not even put PC into their TV adds for NHL Hockey they just advertise it for either playstation or Xbox. Steam Linux on a super mini could turn all this around overnight.
  
  --
  This message was not sent from an iPhone because Peter Sellers really was a deviated prevert without a dime for the call
52. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-24 17:54 · Score: 1
  
  I don't doubt they could potentially see millions of users, but I do doubt that many - if any - of those users actually care about open source at all, in fact most of the software they will actually use will be closed-source anyway.
53. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-24 18:48 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Point was that the discrete graphics card market is dead
  Why is it that some people see a decline in a market and translate that to it being 'dead'? I suppose desktops and laptops are dead too? We might as well just ditch them and shift to....what?
  
  it is a shrinking small sector and there is not even room for one player!
  Really? In this multi-billion dollar a year industry there is not even room for one player? Why are they even bothering to make them then? If there's not even room for one player then the fact that there are 2 must be catastrophic to their bottom lines, they must be losing money hand over fist just supporting that market!
54. Re:Valve/Steam by Bert64 · 2013-09-24 19:13 · Score: 1
  
  It's not just about gamers... Lots of people are using GPUs for processing these days, and Linux has a much bigger market share of compute servers than it does gaming.
  
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55. Re:Valve/Steam by Lonewolf666 · 2013-09-24 21:01 · Score: 1
  
  I think the low wattage trend is most important in mobile, because there it directly translates into battery life. And yes, ARM is making inroads there. Intel also tends to offer more performance per watt.
  For desktops that don't need huge performance, AMD has a fairly good product in its APUs. Wattage is not quite as important there. But as Intel's integrated graphics get better, AMD is coming under pressure there as well.
  Now reviews of APUs vs. discrete cards and CPUs show that the APUs tend to be bottlenecked by memory bandwidth, so I wonder if AMD might do better with a PC version of the chip they built for Sony's PS4. I'm thinking of a small form factor mainboard (Mini ATX? ITX?) with soldered in APU and 8 GByte of GDDR5 RAM. Which would obviously not be upgradeable, but should be quite sufficient for the sort of PC their current APUs are typically used in. Compared to the PS4, that board would have to offer more USB and SATA connectors, plus maybe 1-2 PCIx slots for a bit of extendability.
  In the gamer market, it seems that most people don't care that much about power consumption. I do, but I'm the exception among my friends. For most it is about framerates and higher framerates. AMD has a problem there with their CPUs, because Intel has a huge advantage in performance. But in the GPU market they are fine.
  I hope AMD can survive on the console business for now and close the performance gap to Intel with the next version of their Bulldozer architecture. Because if they don't, they will disappear from the x86 CPU market eventually.
  
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56. Re:Valve/Steam by ChrisMaple · 2013-09-24 23:44 · Score: 1
  
  AMD has lost money in the last 4 quarters, and 6 of the last 7. After accounting for cash on hand, they're a billion dollars in debt.
  
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57. Re:Valve/Steam by Lonewolf666 · 2013-09-25 00:15 · Score: 1
  
  Not according to Michael Larabel on phoronix.com.
  The guy frequently tests the latest Open Source drivers for AMD's chips, and sometimes nouveau too.
  While AMD Open Source drivers are still outperformed by Catalyst, they are getting closer. Comparisons of nouveau to the nVidia binary drivers show a much greater performance gap.
  
  --
  C - the footgun of programming languages
58. Re:Valve/Steam by Jesus_666 · 2013-09-25 00:42 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Let's face it: Gaming is dead. PC gaming is dead because of consoles. Console gaming is dead because of smartphones. iOS is dead because of Android and Android is dead because of fragmentation. Physical games are dead because of video games.
  
  We are most likely the last generation that engages in unproductive activities for fun. Yes, even those of us who aren't part of "this generation". Especially them, in fact.
  
  --
  USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
59. Re:Valve/Steam by h4rr4r · 2013-09-25 00:46 · Score: 1
  
  I find the former to be very anti-freedom and user-hostile. The latter is pro freedom and user friendly, while being third party developer hostile. The user's freedom simply matters more.
60. Re:Valve/Steam by intermodal · 2013-09-25 01:03 · Score: 1
  
  Be that as it may, it's a lot simpler for them to distribute open-sourced drivers than closed-source ones with heavier license restrictions.
  
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61. Re:Valve/Steam by deviated_prevert · 2013-09-25 01:43 · Score: 1
  
  BUT the reality is that Arm SoCs are cutting into both intel and amd. The shine is off the 45-65 watts small space heater chipsets and the race to heat whole rooms with 100 watt plus chips is over.
  Power = power. Or less vaguely, electricity = computational power; more = better.
  Low-end stuff is going low-power but if you want a system to do video editing+encoding, CAD, compilation of large software or any of the other common problems then buying a mobile phone glued to the inside of a normal desktop chassis is a really dumb idea. [In short: Workstations are not going anywhere. Professionals will still use them, just home user penetration will drop off.]
  Good points, but it all comes down to bang for buck. Most graphic houses use high powered servers and a few high powered work stations. The market for small form factor devices that pack a decent punch at low wattage on the desktop is still there. People using game consoles for net access in the living room proves one thing there is a market for something quiet small and with a fair computational punch. Microsoft and Sony have gone for the closed ecosystem approach to the users living rooms.
  There is room for something like a Steambox that can do much more and more importantly if this same device can easily be converted into a desktop full fledged computer it might catch on with more than just gaming. Nvidia is already trying to rev up the market but they do not have the marketing skills to make it work as they are up against a wall of competition and essentially they have no access to retail store space and no way to showcase what they are really capable of doing on devices without Microsoft and Windows getting in the way.
  This is why they need to collaborate with someone like AMD and go head to head against the Wintel juggernaut. It can be done. By and large the general public hates Windows and this is not at all because of the companies that manufactured the components and computers. Sure sell Windows on the device for those that insist upon it, but if Microsoft turns around and bullies you for selling a genuine dual boot system, joe public might just be with you this time around. Advertise your steam linux install as a new and revolutionary multipurpose operating system with full fledged pc capabilities as well as being a great gaming console.
  After all FFMPEG is already being used just about everywhere on the planet except on a straight install of Windows or Mac! Go after the jugular and do things with OpenGL and FFMPEG on Linux that leaves DirectX and Windows in the dust. Again it can be done! Samsung is already cleaning up with smart TVs and they all use some form of the Linux kernel in combination with FFMPEG. Let Microsoft bang down your door and threaten you with their hoard of little weasel lawyers. If the public thinks they are being prevented from having something by a bully like Microsoft it could really pay off in a hurry! Like I said the Samsung/Apple war did wonders for Samsung to say the least.
  
  --
  This message was not sent from an iPhone because Peter Sellers really was a deviated prevert without a dime for the call
62. Re:Valve/Steam by JohnnyMindcrime · 2013-09-25 04:23 · Score: 1
  
  I think you are confusing "care about Open Source software" with "care about getting stuff for free".
  Don't get me wrong, I've been a big Linux and UNIX guy for a couple of decades now, I'm also the "IT bloke" that gets everyone else's PCs to fix and repair. I've turned a lot of friends and family into using Open Source applications (mostly on Windows), especially when I have found illegally installed commercial software on their PCs and told them I won't do a thing to repair their PCs unless they un-install all hooky software or go pay for registered versions of it. I'm not wasting my time killing malware that they let in through the back door with copied software/
  I explain Open Source to them when I'm showing them the basics of GIMP or LibreOffice, some of them get it, most just like the idea of free stuff that probably isn't plagued with malware and viruses.
  
  --
  Windows 10 is great - I used it to download Linux.
63. Re:Valve/Steam by mcgrew · 2013-09-25 04:51 · Score: 1
  
  Why is it that some people see a decline in a market and translate that to it being 'dead'? I suppose desktops and laptops are dead too? We might as well just ditch them and shift to....what?
  Twenty years ago a video card was absolutely necessary; there were no motherboards containing video chips. A few years later when motherboards started sporting video chips, most home PCs were mostly gaming rigs (single player because everyone was on a 33k modem) and more were on BBSes than on the internet, and dedicated game consoles wre sucky little toys compared to a PC. These days a video card is completely unnecessary unless you're a PC gamer, and most gamers have moved on to consoles; unlike the past, a console's video is as good as a computer's now that TVs are high def.
  Folks are eschewing their home PCs for tablets and consoles. The desktop is for content creation, not consumption. You still need one in the office, you need one if you're a writer or a photographer or other content creator, you need one for spreadsheets and databases and all the other work-related stuff but homes? Few homes need a PC any more, they can play Angry Birds and surf Facebook on their tablets and phones.
  PC gaming started out geeks-only. The mainstream joined, but these days it's pretty much geeks-only again.
  
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  Free Martian Whores!
64. Re:Valve/Steam by Wootery · 2013-09-25 05:58 · Score: 1
  
  Looks like you're right. I didn't realise AMD's Open Source driver was so good (or their proprietary driver so bad? I don't know how it compares to Windows).
  Meanwhile, Intel have only an Open Source driver. Good for them. (I don't know that it's documented (I'm thinking BSD), but it's a good start.)
65. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-25 10:36 · Score: 1
  
  The latter is pro freedom and user friendly, while being third party developer hostile. The user's freedom simply matters more.
  No, when it prevents me from having a working driver because the ideology of the driver author and the kernel author don't match that most certainly is user-hostile and anti-freedom! If i want to mix and match proprietary and free software that should be my choice to make, not anybody elses.
66. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-25 10:40 · Score: 1
  
  Few homes need a PC any more, they can play Angry Birds and surf Facebook on their tablets and phones.
  Yeah because that's all people did on their PCs, this idea that the majority of people just use devices to play Angry Birds and Facebook is so stupid, such tasks may be common to the majority of people but they most certainly aren't the only the things the majority of people do.
67. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-25 10:53 · Score: 1
  
  GPL is what it is, nobody has to:
  a/ License code they own the copyright to under the GPL
  b/ Use any GPL code which others have freely licensed that way.
  That's *freedom of choice*.
  So your definition of 'freedom of choice' is simply the ability to use any software within the confines of its license? The point is that this limits what the user can do simply because the GPL software author doesn't like the ideology of the proprietary software author and refuses to co-operate in an attempt to force their ideology on the proprietary software author, the 'my way or the highway' approach. When shit doesn't work because free software artificially disallows it that is user-hostile.
68. Re:Valve/Steam by mcgrew · 2013-09-25 12:25 · Score: 1
  
  Non-nerds use their computers to email, play simple games, look stuff up on google, post lolcats on facebook, look at YouTube videos and that's about all. A tablet suffices; you only need a mouse and keyboard for content creation and PC gaming (not angry birds), and only a tiny minority do that.
  
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  Free Martian Whores!
69. Re:Valve/Steam by exomondo · 2013-09-25 12:44 · Score: 2
  
  No that's what they have in common and a discrete graphics card hasn't been needed for such things for over a decade, moving those things from a PC to a tablet has no impact on discrete graphics cards.
70. Re:Valve/Steam by vilanye · 2013-09-28 10:19 · Score: 1
  
  What license stops you from running proprietary software?
  
  The GPL doesn't. As an example there is plenty of proprietary userland and driver software available on Linux.
  
  Linux can't ship which the closed Nvidia driver, but no license stops you from using it. Linux can't ship with ZFS support in the kernel, but no license stops you from using it with Linux.
Since the competitors have done their work by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-24 06:49 · Score: 1

Since Intel, ARM, and Vivante have already spent their millions on delevoping the 3D graphics to compete with AMD, nvidia, and Immagination, nvidia might now feel it is ok to open source some of its specs.
Re:Linus Torvalds by Ynot_82 · 2013-09-24 06:53 · Score: 3, Informative

Torvald's comments to Nvidia were to do with Optimus (their GPU switching stuff), not their closed graphics driver
Apologize? No. by fahrbot-bot · 2013-09-24 06:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

I really hope that some day I can just apologize for ever giving them the finger.
There's no need to apologize later Linus. They behaved badly and you called them out on it. If they change their behavior for the better, simply praise them for that then.

--
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
1. Re:Apologize? No. by Belial6 · 2013-09-24 07:00 · Score: 1
  
  That was my thought. You don't take back a valid criticism when someone changes their behavior. You acknowledge that the bad behavior is now in the past.
2. Re:Apologize? No. by Brandano · 2013-09-24 07:34 · Score: 1
  
  Still, it WOULD make the news
3. Re:Apologize? No. by VortexCortex · 2013-09-24 08:08 · Score: 1
  
  They behaved badly and you called them out on it. If they change their behavior for the better, simply praise them for that then.
  Ah, you're probably not married then.
  Bayesian Social Science is mostly harmless.
4. Re:Apologize? No. by fahrbot-bot · 2013-09-24 08:14 · Score: 1
  
  They behaved badly and you called them out on it. If they change their behavior for the better, simply praise them for that then.
  Ah, you're probably not married then.
  Actually, I was very happily married for 20.5 years. My wife died in January 2006.
  
  --
  It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
where are these tight ones? by raymorris · 2013-09-24 07:00 · Score: 1

Where might one find these tight ones?
Apologies to any sensitive women for encouraging this.
1. Re:where are these tight ones? by Oysterville · 2013-09-24 07:26 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  The sensitive women are who you are looking for, for what should be apparent reasons.
Re:Linus Torvalds by kthreadd · 2013-09-24 07:24 · Score: 1

I thought that was part of the graphics driver, but I'm not familiar with the details.
Re:Linus Torvalds by VortexCortex · 2013-09-24 08:05 · Score: 2

"ABI" - Application Binary Interface. Linux has a stable ABI, he's ranted at noobs who broke the ABI before. "Application" being the operative word here... noticeably inapplicable to drivers and only tangentially related to HAL.
In other words: I'm sorry AC, I'm afraid I can't mean that.
Re:Linus Torvalds by RR · 2013-09-24 08:13 · Score: 1

I thought it was about Tegra, and Optimus, and GeForce, and maybe some bad memories of Nforce. NVIDIA has never before been a friend of open source.

--
Have a nice time.
Re:Apologize? Yes. by Bengie · 2013-09-24 08:27 · Score: 2

Yes he's 12, but in the way that he says what's on his mind and doesn't cripple his communications with political correctness. Linus isn't about telling people "you're doing great!" when they're bad. He calls them out when the fail horribly and makes sure everyone knows about it.
Re:NVIDIA is merely pulling a PR stunt like AMD di by ifiwereasculptor · 2013-09-24 08:29 · Score: 2

What non-free component is the radeon driver dependent of? AFAIK, radeon is completely free. Even the FSF's approved distros use it, and Stallman is not known for his flexibility. Are you referring to S3TC? The driver is hardly "heavily dependent" on it.
"None" by Guppy · 2013-09-24 08:30 · Score: 1

I don't think the analogy holds too well.
That's cause you're holding it wrong. Here, you're supposed to hold that one like a joke:
*Ahem*
Q: "What kind of meat did the Priest have on Fridays?"
1. Re:"None" by gagol · 2013-09-24 12:16 · Score: 1
  
  A: shrimps!
  
  --
  Tomorrow is another day...
Re:Will this make my GF2 GTS run well? by ifiwereasculptor · 2013-09-24 08:36 · Score: 1

Forget it. NVIDIA's blob is frequently applauded for perfomance, but support for older cards is nonexistant. Geforce FXs and 6s don't even work with GTK3 DEs on either driver. Your best bets are replacing the video card, removing it altogether or using those old Mesa DRI drivers that don't use Gallium 3D. I'm sure they're still around.
Re:Linus Torvalds by blackiner · 2013-09-24 08:47 · Score: 3, Informative

Sort of. The userspace interface is the ABI that linux keeps constant. Basically all the syscalls, ioctls, and Linus even likes to include the nuances of how they operate as part of the ABI. This is the stuff that must not change, and it does a pretty good job at keeping it constant. Supposedly apps compiled to target the 1.0 kernel can still run just fine on the latest kernel, provided the libraries it links to also maintained good ABI stability.

The ABI breakage that occurs happens with in kernel functions themselves. These are things that are not considered standardized API functions or syscalls that should be accessed by userspace. But, in order to produce closed source drivers for Linux, companies like NVIDIA will need to link to these functions. Linking to these is of course a violation of the GPL, though, so NVIDIA gets around it by writing an open source shim that gets compiled when the driver is installed, which then connects to their more proprietary parts. One of the points of the GPL and allowed in kernel ABI breakage is to make it more difficult for people to keep their drivers closed source and outside the kernel.
Re:Apologize? Yes. by sjames · 2013-09-24 08:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

Acting 12 is pretty good in a world of corporations yelling MINE MINE MINE while squabbling like 2 year olds.
don't know by Vince6791 · 2013-09-24 10:22 · Score: 1

Intel and AMD have their cpu architectures opened to the public, why not gpu architectures so the linux and bsd communities can develop better drivers for wayland and mir windowing systems, what are they hiding. Or at least Nvidia and AMD can build an opengl only gpu for the open source world(linux, bsd). Fucking corporations.
1. Re:don't know by syockit · 2013-09-24 16:17 · Score: 1
  
  what are they hiding.
  Patent infringements, perhaps.
  
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2. Re:don't know by jones_supa · 2013-09-24 18:10 · Score: 1
  
  Intel and AMD have their cpu architectures opened to the public, why not gpu architectures so the linux and bsd communities can develop better drivers for wayland and mir windowing systems, what are they hiding. Or at least Nvidia and AMD can build an opengl only gpu for the open source world(linux, bsd). Fucking corporations.
  What? This particular article is exactly about Nvidia releasing more open documentation about their hardware.
Re:Linus Torvalds by exomondo · 2013-09-24 11:09 · Score: 1

"ABI" - Application Binary Interface. Linux has a stable ABI
No, not for kernel modules it doesn't and that's obviously what we are talking about here. The lack of a stable ABI for kernel modules is also the reason why version information is stored in modinfo and a kernel module only loaded if it matches the running kernel.

"Application" being the operative word here... noticeably inapplicable to drivers and only tangentially related to HAL.
You're taking that too literally, this document may help you gain a better understanding of this subject.
Re:Apologize? Yes. by antdude · 2013-09-24 13:09 · Score: 1

Or like seagulls from Finding Nemo movie.

--
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Re:NVIDIA is merely pulling a PR stunt like AMD di by jonwil · 2013-09-24 13:14 · Score: 1

Guessing this
http://people.freedesktop.org/~agd5f/radeon_ucode/
The license says "free to redistribute in binary form" but its not open source and the license specifically forbids reverse engineering.
Nintendo should join the party by fragMasterFlash · 2013-09-24 14:59 · Score: 1

Nintendo should give up on making console hardware and stick with handhelds and offer their traditional console titles via Steam.
Re:Linus Torvalds by exomondo · 2013-09-24 15:53 · Score: 1

I'm not advocating for it, just pointing out that the idea that Linux has a stable ABI (in the context of kernel modules) is completely bogus.
Re:Apologize? Yes. by greg1104 · 2013-09-24 17:16 · Score: 1

Pick them a very special apology SHA1 hash.
About the backdoor thing by jones_supa · 2013-09-24 17:16 · Score: 1

A couple of days ago there was the Slashdot article about Linus being asked if he has been ever asked to insert a backdoor into Linux. Now as the full talk is available in YouTube , you might want to check the particular comment at 24:15 and judge for yourself. After his nodding and audience laughter, a few seconds after that Linus writes it off by shaking his head and saying "no", in a voice that to me sounds like it really was just meant to be only a joke. Any comments?
Re:Linus Torvalds by jones_supa · 2013-09-24 17:50 · Score: 1

I thought that was part of the graphics driver, but I'm not familiar with the details.
Support for Optimus was later added to the Nvidia closed source Linux graphics driver (May 3, 2013 / 319.17).
NVIDIA GPU Docs, Eh? by ewhac · 2013-09-24 20:03 · Score: 1

I hear that somewhere in the company there's a short video that serves as an introduction to their GPU architecture for new driver engineers. I wonder if they'll release it, too?
(*uncontrollable giggling*)

--
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
In other news: hell froze over by YoungManKlaus · 2013-09-24 20:16 · Score: 1

news at 11
Re:Linus Torvalds by exomondo · 2013-09-25 11:52 · Score: 1

That page talks about the driver model, not the ABI.
Wrong, it talks about both.

Linux has a stable ABI, but not a stable driver model. Two completely different things.
Wrong again, the two most certainly are related. Since you either didn't read the link or couldn't comprehend it i'll quote a relevant passage from it:
The Linux driver model is different. For users, the goal is to provide the “Just Works” experience. The Linux model is that IHVs get the source code for their driver accepted into the mainline kernel. This entails a public peer review process to ensure that the driver code is of sufficient quality and does not have obvious bugs or security risks.3 Linux has neither a stable binary driver ABI nor a stable source-code driver Application Programming Interface (API). That is, there is no guarantee that an interface provided in one version of the kernel will be available in the next version, and portions of the ABI and API change in every kernel release.