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New York Subpoenaed AirBnb For All NYC User Data

Posted by Unknown on from the have-some-bedbugs dept.

Daniel_Stuckey writes "The war between New York City and Airbnb is raging on, and the future of the hospitality business hangs in the balance. The city is fighting the startup for breaking local laws against operating an illegal hotel out of your home, worried that hustlers are abusing the online service to turn a profit. To that end, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman just slapped the company with a subpoena to hand over the user data of all New Yorkers who've listed their apartment on the site, the New York Daily News reported today. That's about 225,000 users."

34 of 181 comments (clear)

  1. Look past the article's version of the cast ... by timothy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don'tcha love it that "turning a profit" is here characterized as "abuse"? And to be clear, it's not "the city" in the abstract that has anything against things like AirBnB -- nor is it guests. It's established hotel businesses, which would prefer the current low supply of rooms and the current scheme of regulation which lets *them* profit from the current configuration.

    --
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    1. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by jacknifetoaswan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. NYC has become such an insane town, government-wise, I shudder to think about ever going back. I mean, between soda bans, elevator bans, and their constant harassment over any business that innovates and turns a profit, like Airbnb or Uber, it just feels like Bloomberg and the rest of the town council, have done nothing but create a hostile environment for everyone. I love NYC, I really do. There's nothing better than walking through NYC on a cold winter's morning, eating a potato knish, but damn, it's gotten insane up there.

    2. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Government is a protection racket. You get what you pay for.

      The trouble with justice is the scales tend to lean to the side with the most gold piled on.

    3. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by gutnor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the current scheme of regulation which lets *them* profit

      You are spinning it the other way. Regulation are also costing them. I'm sure lot of hotel would be fine just not having those pesky regulation getting in the way (like you know fire protection, hygiene, using legit employees, insurances, ...)

    4. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by PktLoss · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I very much think the city can have an issue on its own, without the hotel lobby being involved.

      Property owners are learning that they can make more money posting their apartments on AirBnB than renting them out traditionally. It's in their economic best interest to hire a cleaning service, throw in some flat-pack furniture, and stop renting normally. This distorts the rental market as people who live in the city end up competing with short-term tourists for places to live. Cities want to be somewhere people live, not just somewhere people visit.

      AirBnB hosts also compete against hotels with a stacked deck. They're not forced to charge the standard hotel-night taxes, nor meet ID checking requirements on guests, pay commercial property tax, meet commercial firecode requirements, etc. I can understand why hotels would be angry, but they're far from the only group with a vested interest in the outcome.

      --
      paul reinheimer
    5. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You mean you can't run an unregulated hotel and compete with the regulated ones? Is that a shock to you? Did you know it is also illegal to sell uninspected meat you slaughter at home?

      We regulate hotels and food production for lots of reasons. Sure regulatory capture happens but the alternative just might be worse. If you want to check that out just google for china and pretty much any food item.

    6. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Diss+Champ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the current scheme of regulation which lets *them* profit

      You are spinning it the other way. Regulation are also costing them. I'm sure lot of hotel would be fine just not having those pesky regulation getting in the way (like you know fire protection, hygiene, using legit employees, insurances, ...)

      On the contrary, as long as the regulations exist and are enforced, the hotels are perfectly happy to include the costs of satisfying the city that they are in compliance (whether by complying or otherwise) by increasing what they charge people to stay. The more regulations, the harder it is for someone to enter the market and compete with them. They (probably correctly) see AirBnb as a form of competition, and are happy to use the regulations as a club to pound on the competition with.

    7. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Informative

      They are competing against people renting other peoples apartments. It's a joke. This is just like the Alcohol Distributor bullshit that's all over this country. Regulations are supposed to ensure quality, but they are quickly subverted and used by the industry to lock out competition.

    8. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Entropius · · Score: 2

      Well, if the property is more valuable as short-term lodging for visitors than for resident rentals, then perhaps that indicates that there is high demand for that, and that this city at this time very much wants to be somewhere people visit.

    9. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Jawnn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right. The "problem" in NYC is "the government". No. Seriously. You are quite correct, as in "The government has become the willing lackey for doing the bidding of the monied interests who pay to have 'their' candidates elected." The blame for this lies with elections laws that allow such influence peddling and with an electorate that has failed almost completely to keep itself informed about the issues affecting it and policies of those they elect.

    10. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's nothing better than walking through NYC on a cold winter's morning, eating a potato knish

      Then you haven't lived.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    11. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You will rapidly change your mind when your neighbour becomes an airbnb. You will find bunches of people paying pittance and holding all night parties, inviting hundreds of facebook friends, having no respect for the property they are in, no respect for you or your home. Then the next weekend you get to look forward to it all again with another group.

      For this reason it needs to be illegal everywhere. (and probably will be soon) You can't take a business which is regulated and controlled to minimise impact (e.g hotels, holiday lettings, party venues) and claim you have the right to do it anywhere you want because new technology suddenly enabled it.

      Airbnb landlords are either already operating illegally or be as legislation changes to prevent it. Homes are not businesses. They are homes.

    12. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have had this exact thing happen in my neck of the woods. A neighbor rents their place out, so pretty often the street is packed with cars, and sometimes people wind up parking in my driveway. Funny how slow people act to move cars, but how fast they do when the tow truck comes to the area.

      It gets old having 4-10 different people, usually whooping it up all night, trashing the area. Oftentimes, there are things missing when I come out in the morning, be it sprinklers or even trash cans. Could be worse. The other neighbor had a hose stuffed in the mail slot and turned on, causing tens of thousands of dollars of water damage.

      The only reason this stopped is that a number of people around this guy had to get the local city on the neighbor's case about not paying the city bed tax... and trust me, government organizations don't care about much, but if they find someone isn't paying taxes, they come in spades.

      If someone wants to operate a hotel or a bed/breakfast, fine. However, neighbors are not going to be appreciative having strange people coming/going at all hours of the night.

    13. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2

      I fail to see how any organization is going to influence Bloomberg.

      That includes organizations which serve to protect the public as well. And the idea that a rich person can't be bought or influenced is nonsense. How do you think they got rich in the first place?

      --
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    14. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is a question of volume. In most sane regulations, there are exemptions for people who stay below a certain threshold of behavior. The idea being that if problems do occur, low volume keeps it from being a problem of the scope that impacts vast numbers of people. It's the balance that is missing from the current equation.

      Allowing for exemptions from regulations for low volume activities can be much more beneficial than requiring that everyone follow the exact set of regulations/licenses. A good example of this is the craft beer industry. The craft industry allows part-time/hobbyist level of activity which allows people to develop the experience and skills in brewing. Without this craft industry, I doubt that the micro-brewery industry would be even 1/10th the size it is today.

      One size fits all regulation which covers both true industry and home-garage sized businesses really doesn't work, and that's why we see all these conflicts with services like AirBNB and Uber and the like.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    15. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      At this point, I'm pretty sure that Bloomberg is just playing SimCity: Because I Fucking Can, That's Why, Edition, rather than actively pandering to anybody in particular

    16. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by gabeman-o · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not that simple. If you actually lived in New York, you wouldn't be so quick to say that AirBnB are the good guys here.

      I live in an apartment complex that has tons of rent controlled units. Regardless of your thoughts on rent control, it is something that is the law today and there are a number of strings attached. One of these restrictions is that it has to be your primary residence. There are people here who have turned their cheap, rent controlled apartment into a fly by night hotel. It is 100% illegal and I applaud the city for cracking down.

      Additionally:

      -It reduces the inventory of apartments in New York and artificially inflates rent for people who actually live here.

      -Operating a hotel is something that is regulated by laws and the people renting out space on AirBnB aren't going to adhere to them.

      -There are safety concerns as well, especially for those living in apartment buildings without doormen

    17. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, I am an Architect in NYC that has worked with owners of the buildings (which is typically not the owners of the units) that are having to remove violations and stop-work orders in an effort to maintain the building (which requires permits to do so, which cannot be gotten with a stop-work order in place). While there might be "hotel lobby" conspiracies involved, there is actually very legitimate reasons for this on the building life-safety side of things. Most large residential buildings are class R-2 Residential zoning (permanent living) not R-1 (temporary living), and therefore not set up to act as a place for people who might not understand english, might not be familiar with the building, and might not have any idea what to do in case of a fire. R-1 requires lighted exit signs, strobes, sprinkler / smoke detectors, and so on that R-2 doesn't need since the residents are knowledgable about the methods to escape fires and other life-safety issues. So building owners caught with AirBnB renters in it (and believe me I have seen it quite a bit) are required to bring the ENTIRE building up to R-1 level. Not fun or cheap, however, as with any life-safety issue, once the first family from Amsterdam is killed because they couldn't find their way out of the burning building, everyone will ask the City why this wan't enforced...

    18. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by madhi19 · · Score: 2

      Bloomberg is part of the establishment hell at 31B he IS the establishment and the establishment hate nothing more than disruptive innovation. The existing pecking order depend entirely on the continuation of the satus quo. Bloomberg might not own any hotel but I guarantee he heard bitching from his "friends" who own them.

    19. Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... by LoRdTAW · · Score: 2

      To be honest rent control is the only thing keeping some buildings sane and affordable for all to live there. My brother lives in a rent controlled building on the south side of prospect park, a block away. Its a nice secure building and the rent for a single bedroom apartment is $1200 and a two bedroom is $2000. The apartments are HUGE and to me the $1200 makes it well worth the cost. The bedroom is so big he can fit both his girlfriends computer desk along with his computer desk, a 46" TV, a proper dresser, queen size bed and plenty of room to walk around. My house doesn't even have bedrooms that big. The building is well cared for, clean, has elevators, features RF keycard access control as well as a 24/7 manned guard booth. It is also supposedly the first building Donald Trump ever owned.

      Contrast that to the previous apartment he had in Astoria without rent control. The stairwell smelled like a public restroom, was poorly lit and painted the color of puke and some of the steps were loose creating a slip hazard. The heat barely worked and the washroom dryers would melt your clothes. No security and the apartments were refurbished in a real shoddy manner, eg cheap cabinets, snap together flooring and a thousandth coat of cheap paint. Then add to that they were charging $1550 for a "two bedroom" that was a 5th floor walkup with no elevator. The claustrophobic bedrooms were so small a queens size bed wouldn't fit in one room and the other slightly larger room was too small to fit a queen size bed and a bureau at the same time. His rent controlled apartments living room is the same size as that entire shitty apartment. He only had a one year lease and they were going to hike his rent up another hundred dollars a month to $1650 if he renewed. A shit hole for $1650 with no benefits, fuck that and he left.

  2. Mayor Bloomberg, My Lord! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    We have another quarter-million names for your stop-and-frisk list!

  3. How dare people try and turn a profit by schwit1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    AirBnb, please tell the city to go F itself. If the city has a problem with certain property owners they can request data on those specific owners. The city shouldn't be permitted to go on a fishing expedition to prove a theory.

    This is just like the NSA demanding all phone records from Verizon with the possibility that only a few may be terrorists.

    1. Re:How dare people try and turn a profit by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the city has a problem with certain property owners they can request data on those specific owners.

      I wonder when they seize my-diary.com if they're still going to claim third-party disclosure as a legal theory and insist that people have no expectation of privacy in their data.

      The city shouldn't be permitted to go on a fishing expedition to prove a theory.

      You say that like the 4th Amendment applies to Herr Bloomberg.

      This is just like the NSA demanding all phone records from Verizon with the possibility that only a few may be terrorists.

      NYC has its own army, its own missiles - why not its own NSA? Those guys in DC shouldn't get to do all the goosestepping!

      --
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      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  4. Who needs the money more? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

    Well, on one hand New York City really needs the money. On the other hand, these AirBNB rent-seekers are already well-off (because they [a] live in New York City and [b] could afford SO much extra space that they actually have ROOMS TO RENT) don't need any extra money. These disruptive technologies need to be shut down before they impact the bottom line.

    The City of New York likes to wet its beak in everything. No matter what your racket is, as long as it's in cousin Vinny's turf then you gotta pay the man. Or else this - just like in the article - cousin Vinny makes a few connections to find out where you live. Then, you get a threat and either you pay or the enforcers show up at your door to beat some sense into you, Brooklyn-style. I (heart) NY. Why would anyone live anywhere else?

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  5. Re:Probably cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, he can. It is illegal in New York to rent real estate for any length of time without the proper permits and licenses. Listing a room on AirBnB is prima facie evidence that you've broken these laws and easilly rises to the level of probable cause (with an "e").

  6. AirBNB HELL!!!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Am right now 5:20 AM in the morning in Los Angeles in AirBNB HELL!!! The property management company for the building next door has started renting out units on AirBNB, probably not telling the property owner and collecting the difference in rent. Right now there is a huge party going on next door and it started at 3 AM. This is not the first time this has happened. Tenants in the building couldn't park in their own spots because the party guests took them last time. When they complained to management they where told if you pay as much as their paying in rent you can have the spot back. Am sure the cops have been called more then once. Am guessing that the tenets will sue because keeping a peaceful residence is one of major parts of leases. I've also told one or two of them that I am keeping a log and am willing to testify in any court case. Speaking of which am going to call the cops just to have an official record of my complaint.

    AirBNB needs to figure this out or be made illegal. End of fucking story. If I get fired from work for being up all night. I will talk to a lawyer about using AirBNB.

    1. Re:AirBNB HELL!!!!!!! by CaffinatedSloth · · Score: 2

      No, tenets cannot sue. Anything. Ever. tenet: noun 1. a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy. A tenant, however, can. As opposed to tenant: noun 1. a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

  7. You are boss by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

    > That's about 225,000 users

    It's important you 225,000 let the elected officials know your displeasure at this at the next election. Especially the ones who throw up their hands and say, "I had nothing to do with this!"

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:You are boss by westlake · · Score: 2

      It's important you 225,000 let the elected officials know your displeasure at this at the next election. Especially the ones who throw up their hands and say, "I had nothing to do with this!"

      The population of New York is 8.3 million. Quite a few I suspect who have no interest whatever in seeing their apartment building being transformed into a cut-price hotel --- without hotel security, fire protection and so on.

  8. Re:Probably cause by Lincolnshire+Poacher · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, that is not illegal. Just like your colleague giving you a cross-country lift in his car if you split the petrol cost is not illegal.

    Or going for a flight in your colleague's aeroplane and paying the landing fees.

    However, as soon as it crosses the line to advertised and remunerated 'hire for reward' it becomes a regulated activity. If your colleague regularly flies people in his aeroplane and charges a fare, then he has to start obeying.

  9. Par for the course. by runeghost · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ignore billions in mortgage and other bank fraud, then go after the little people trying to make ends meet.

  10. Try finding a room in Manhattan... by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2

    Try finding a room in Manhattan (that isn't a shithole) for under $200 a night.

    Yup, that's exactly why this company is being harassed. The established hotels are enjoying their little collective monopoly that causes the concept of an affordable hotel room in Manhattan to be a pipe dream.

    You see things like this (ridiculously high hotel room prices) and become suspicious that there is some sort of "cartel" or organization propping them up. Then you see news articles like that and your thoughts are vindicated. There is so much damn corruption out there...

  11. we, de Blasio is the next mayor... by swb · · Score: 2

    ...barring any newly released sex tapes, heroin possession charges or anything similar.

    I'm not sure where de Blasio stands on this issue specifically but somehow I suspect that he's not really going to take a real entrepreneurial tack on it.

    NYC has a major affordable housing problem and I'm sure there's affordable housing advocates that would argue that residential property should be residential or at least only usable for residential purposes, which makes some sense from a supply/demand perspective for residential housing and I'd wager that de Blasio is a big supporter of affordable housing initiatives.

    Then there's the unions -- he's a democrat and I'm sure the hospitality unions back any initiative that's pro-hotel, and union support is something de Blasio wants.

    And then there's the hotel industry generally which is probably not a lobbying entity which can be easily ignored, especially if they can get the unions on their side of an issue.

  12. Re:Probably cause by tompaulco · · Score: 2

    And what do those people care if NYC subpoenas their user name/address/phone from AirBnB?

    They a) aren't doing anything wrong, they have the permits.

    b) they have the permits, so they've already registered their name, address, and phone number in conjunction with the exact activity in question.

    Yes, and I'm sure you won't care if the cops pull you over for a random drug test because you don't have any drugs. If you have nothing to hide, then who cares if your privacy is invaded, right?

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.