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Nest Protect: Trojan Horse For 'The Internet of Things'?
Nerval's Lobster writes "Nest (based in Palo Alto, and headed by former Apple executive Tony Fadell) is out to reinvent the ugly, blocky devices—starting with the thermostat—that we bolt to our walls and ceilings out of necessity. Its new Nest Protect, looks more like something for streaming music or movies than a smoke detector; inside its chic shell, the device packs an embedded system-on-a-chip and a handful of sensors, capable of connecting to other devices via wireless. 'Would this be a cherished product? Can it be more than a rational purchase — can it be an emotional one?' is the thought process that Fadell uses when evaluating new products for Nest-ification, according to Wired. That sounds like something Apple designer Jony Ive would say about the latest iDevice; your own mileage may vary on whether you consider that a good thing. Whether or not Nest actually succeeds, its emphasis on friendly design and function could serve as a template for helping popularize the so-called 'Internet of Things,' or the giant networks of interconnected devices that everybody seems to think is coming in a few short years: by giving stodgy hardware an iPhone-like sheen, complete with all sorts of bells and whistles, you could potentially change consumer mindsets from 'Do I really need to buy this thing?' to 'I want to buy this thing.' Some privacy advocates are already crying foul ('My dear privacy enthusiast: activity sensors?' The Kernel's Greg Stevens wrote, tongue somewhat in cheek, about Nest Protect in a recent blog posting. 'Ladies and gentlemen, how can you possibly stay silent about the possible abuses of such a device?'), but since when have concerns over privacy prevented people from buying the next 'cool' device?"
Yes. I think it is.
Whatcouldpossiblygowrong?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
"Research firm Gartner recently suggested that IT spending on so-called “smart” devices and associated hardware could eventually reach $4 trillion"
I wish I could make tons of money by telling CxOs anything that they want to hear.
A thermostat is not a smoke detector.
I can make my downstairs neighbors heater kick on and give me some nice in-floor heating... Or I can torment my other neighbors by shutting off random appliances. Sounds like a script kiddies dream.
... selling people "internet-connected smart-gadgets for the home" will be a heck of a tough sell, especially in an "educated" market like Europe. Many people are dismayed to learn that their smartphones, laptops, tablet computers and other devices can be turned into "spying tools" by TPTB pretty much on-demand, with no legal oversight. I don't think that knowing this, anyone is eager to put even more privacy-destroying electronic gadgets in their home. Even an internet connected "smart TV" that can gauge your mood through its built in front camera scanning your face will be a tough sell. It takes one news report of "Smart TVs getting remotely hacked", and people will default back to having a "dumb TV". The Internet-Of-Things will never take off with educated consumers. The "trust" that requires has been destroyed by revelations of NSA/GCHQ snooping on everybody. Its over for the Internet-Of-Things before it has really started. A few dumb consumers may still buy these "internet connected smart devices". But educated/awak/aware consumers? Not a chance in hell... My 2 Cents.
Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
As with anything internet, I think its real sucess depends on it being an open standard. If this company tries to implement proprietary protocols it will not likely succeed.
I think Hasbro can sue for copyright infringement here.
sometimes i wonder about these ideas. cell phones have always been fashionable. before that it was watches and having a nice sports car to show off
thermostats and smoke detectors are something you put in your home and forget about for years to come. i've never met anyone who shows me their cool new smoke
detector when i visit their home
and as far as the thermostat, its for the OCD data dummies. these people will spend hours poring over their data when all they have to do is a few simple and cheap things to weatherproof their home to make it cooler or warmer
Nest has actually released an API for their learning thermostats. http://nest.com/blog/2013/09/25/calling-all-developers/
While it's not necessarily an open standard, they are playing nice with others to be able to add new functionality to their products.
To properly use such stylish and advanced tech like this you will need lots of spray bottles of special air. The special air aligns the molecules of regular air so that the wireless signals don't get lost. I assume anybody who spends that amount of $$$ on a thermostat or smoke detector already knows that.
The first time was about their thermostat, this time is about their smoke detector.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
I considered buying one of these, but the mandatory use of a third party server in "the cloud" was a real turn off.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
WTF! At least a thermostat actually does something worth making it programmable for... this is just a ridiculously overengineered implementation of "if fire, make noise."
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
from the summary: " ... but since when have concerns over privacy prevented people from buying the next 'cool' device?"
Purchasing the next 'cool' device often overrides logic or common sense. Perhaps some individuals will change after being hoist with their own petard.
Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
Can it detect if I'm cooking so it doesn't trip the alarm? Cuz when I cook, somethings likely to burn.
I mean, it's great to have gesture controls and smartphone integration, I guess, but please give it some nice controls and a display. If I have to have a smartphone to control the damn things then:
a) I have to have a smartphone on me or near me at all times at HOME.
b) What the f*$k do I do when I leave my smartphone in the car, at the office, somewhere in the garage, etc?
Some dorkwad tried to sell me on a thermostat that was ONLY controllable via smartphone last year. "No one but you can change the a/c!" was his selling point. Great, when I'm on a business trip and a heat wave hits I'm supposed to let the family suffer?
And do I call home when the text-only smoke alarm alerts me about a fire so I can tell the wife to get out? Sometimes a screeching alarm is the only way to keep my stepdaughter from attempting cooking, you know.
Nevermind privacy. We just don't want our appliances breaking any sooner than they already do. That's why this is a big honking "DO NOT WANT". I do not want to reboot the fridge. I don't want the UI on my thermostat changing because all the cool kids think it should, and it only works when connected.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
'their' api. That's the problem. A 'standard' is not something you control and can change because you want to change it.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
you could potentially change consumer mindsets from 'Do I really need to buy this thing?' to 'I want to buy this thing.'
Phones people use every day and get jollies from doing so. Thermostat's? The entire point of the Nest is you DON'T use it much, it figures it out.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Um... since about 2 months ago, give or take?
Admittedly, people were ridiculously slow in waking up to this threat, which many others of us warned about... but waking up, they are.
It will be an internet-enabled Baked Ham.
(blip)
Ooh! It's ready!
Wait while I waddle over to the stove.
(munch munch munch)
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
So I would have to use a 3rd party cloud server with this product. What happens to my fancy and expensive smoke detector if the company folds?
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
It seems to me, awareness about online privacy is growing. Just because the public has not made privacy a priority yet, does not mean they won't {wake,stand} up tomorrow.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
In practice, 'Version XYZ of Open Standard Whatever, with certain bugs and idiosyncrasies' is 'your API' if you go the open standards route. Over time, the really nasty stuff gets ironed out; but as long as it's "Well, we needed an API and there wasn't one, so we made one, here it is." there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that (in fact, more than a few now-open standards exist because somebody was first to need an API, so they Just Did It and then let(or couldn't stop) standardization from happening around that. Like Hayes-command-set modems.
Now, if Nest means 'their' API in the sense that you have to sign a EULA in blood to write a program that talks to your own hardware (obviously, if an API is a mechanism for accessing resources on somebody else's system, they can set whatever access rules they like; because they own that computer; but if they claim to own the API per se and control all uses of it, We Have A Problem.) they can go suck it; but if they just mean 'Our API, the API that we use and implement in our products' no big deal.
I thought success now depended upon a suite of flimsy, farcical patents and enough cash to hire an utterly immoral IP law firm willing to subvert every notion of justice and decency to beat potential competitors into the ground, or at least have them send you large cheques to keep said immoral IP law firm from dragging them through the month and delaying market entry for new products by months or years.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
That read like an MBA's stream of consciousness. Does anybody have any idea what this is saying?
I'm looking for an intelligent thermostat that speaks an open protocol: Opentherm ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTherm / http://www.opentherm.eu/ ). Nest is not an option. Back to the DIY projects....
When are they going to do power outlets? I could convince myself to replace each one of my outlets if it had WiFi connectivity and a way to monitor usage and turn it on/off.
What I realized about this device is, it's *really* a competitor to those monitored alarm systems the companies like ADT want to sell people. The monthly fees for the landline connection they require back to a "dispatch" will easily cost double what you spend on the Nest Protect in a year's time or less. Yes, those are also burglar alarms -- not JUST fire alarms. But many people really only want the smoke/fire protection with alerting. (The burglar alarms are notorious for false alarms and police who no longer consider it a priority to check out the alarms when they sound.)
Slashdot seems pathologically incapable of separation between something that is deeply functional, vs something that is not, often treating something as useless if it's simply done or polished really well.
The next protect seems like it has "a lot of bells and whistles" but all of them have a ton of practicality behind them that puts them well ahead of traditional smoke/CO2 alarms.
I have a newer smoke/CO2 detector in the house. It has some of the the features that would let a casual observer dismiss the Nest as simply marketing - my smoke alarm after all, has a voice that says if there is smoke or CO2 detected. MY smoke alarm after all, has a button that lets me dismiss an alarm if I simply have a smoky kitchen. What good is a NEST then? Why spend more?
Well I'll tell you. You get a grace period before the real alarm starts, in which you can tell it to ignore the smoke, so the whole house is not pinging with vibrant alarms. And even to dismiss the alarm, you can simply wave at it - which means people with high ceilings, or who are simply short can dismiss alarms easily instead of getting a chair or ladder.
Furthermore the Nest doesn't just say "There's Smoke", it tells you WHAT ROOM. So if candles in your bedroom start something ablaze, you'll know it even if you just dismissed an alert in the kitchen.
It also piggybacks on the usefulness of smoke alarms having hard electrical connections. Since you have a permanently powered device there already why not ALSO provide a motion activated nightlight at night to help you wander around in the dark? Or knowing if people have been in your house while you were gone.
Nest is a company that is producing really well thought out products that offer a compelling reason for spending more on something that has traditionally been kind of ugly and of limited utility.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Apartments in Massachusetts can have 5-7 thermostats (my old 3 bedroom apartment had 7, plus two in the basement and another two in the stairwells). Combine that with having to replace CO detectors every 5-7 years, you're talking about a crapton of money for a marginally useful feature.
Perhaps if you could just have one per housing unit and then it could work with the other ones somehow you'd have something, but as is it just seems like a way to show off just how much money you have.
I'd be more worried about the DEA spying on my smoke detector.
just sayin'...
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Privacy concerns aside...
We have owned a Nest thermostat for a couple years and it has saved us a ton of money in utility bills, as well as making our home comfortable when we need it to be and conserving energy when we don't.
My family cooks a lot, and smoke detectors are a pain in the butt for the occasional burnt meal. We already have the "Home Hero" locally mesh-networked smoke alarms (http://reviews.homedepot.com/1999/100606954/homehero-2-in-1-smoke-and-carbon-monoxide-alarm-reviews/reviews.htm), but the Nest functionality is even better. I have no intention of upgrading, unless my current smoke alarms stop working, but if these were available a couple years ago, I would have bought them.
Back to the privacy concerns... I want to care, really, but as far as the lack of privacy is concerned, the genie is already out of the bottle, so I abashedly admit that I am willing to risk possible further loss of privacy in return for actual convenience.
It's a simple cost-benefit analysis and, for me at least, the benefit outweighs the unlikely potential cost in terms of loss of privacy.
Why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number...and make that a little louder?
Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted! Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.
Hey, don't blame me, my snazzy new intarweb smoke alarm seems to have a infestation of /b/'s.
I can't wait until the first sleep-deprived murder rampage blamed on one of these. Many lulz to be had.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Whoa! Nice. I had no idea. I am directly submitting json requests through their web site to control my thermostat already. Each day, a cron checks my work calendar to see if I have the day off (e.g. Christmas or other holidays) and automatically sets the thermostat to away mode based on that each morning at 7:45. To me, that's a step better than setting schedules or relying on auto-away since it's just a little more accurate. I also use my own web-based control panel so I don't have to use the Nest web site or app directly when I'm away from home.
The unofficial API works pretty well though now that I understand the quirks. I do wish I could set it to auto-away manually and have it not automatically switch back to home. I want it to reset its activity detection when I force auto-away so I don't have to remember to turn the AC on when I get home.
The spooks want to put software on your phones and software in your household devices.
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
...When I can buy it from Home Depot for $17.98
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
There's not exactly a whole lot of competitors to standardize with yet. If their API uses json or XML calls, or any sort of HTTP request, that's standard enough. It's easy.
The real problem is that this API will probably communicate with their servers (which then communicate with the device) and not the device itself. That means if they ever stop supporting the device, your unit quits working for the most part. The thing requires the ability to poll for outdoor weather information so it's a paperweight if their servers ever go offline. If they put out a true API that actually connected to the device directly, people would have some insurance against the company going under. You could replicate all that functionality yourself if you wanted. Even use your own outdoor sensors for a more accurate/local reading.
If you go to The Verge and look at their "coverage" of this by Nilay, it comes across as a massive advertisement, too. It's a long glowing article and then the video accompanying it has the author in many locations all shot beautifully on high quality cameras with great lighting, including two places that are clearly in the offices of the company, where they throw a couple softball "here's where you read the part of the script about how awesome you and your company are" pieces. The whole thing came across from beginning to end like a giant paid-for puff piece. Just like when you watch your local news and they're doing some "big story" that is really just a promotion for some show or movie that the network affiliate is involved in.
The only places it wavered at all was at the very last few seconds of the five or six FIVE MINUTE video and then somewhere later in the *comment* section where the author mentions to a reader that Amazon has a nice fire alarm for $31.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/8/4790896/nest-protect-smoke-detector
Of course, there are no questions raised in the comments about it seeming like a giant ball-sucking advertisement, because VOX doesn't put up with that shit and deletes anything questioning VOX Media properties fucking swiftly.
Of course, maybe it's not a paid-for piece . . . in which case -- jesus christ, what is with the long suck-up article and video? You'd think it was Nest Inc talking about a Nest Inc product in Nest Inc Magazine.
more reasons I DON'T WANT THIS:
1. The potential for gangstalking (it's a thing, I read it on the internet) . You think the low battery warning and the random 3 AM beep is annoying now? Put your therapist on retainer now.
2. Do you really want to give big brother a 85-decibel compliance enforcer in your own home?
3. Does this thing have a warning strobe? I bet it has a strobe. Yet another high-intensity sensory overload device for script kiddies and the KGB to attack you with. Lord help you if someone in your household is photosensitive or suffers from migraines.
These infernal devices are guaranteed to come from the factory infested with the ghost of George Hayduke.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Well, maybe. But I don't believe a chic bullshit detector is a logical possibility.
Surely things may change if and when I actually get my hands on one of these, but it seems like most of the core features could still work just fine by blocking access to nest.com at the router level. Sure, most folks won't actually run out and do that, but most folks don't care as much about privacy as they say they do...which leaves the Slashdot crowd, most of whom certainly know how to prevent WAN access to stuff on their LAN. If you're particularly paranoid, why not dust off the ancient 802.11g router and let the Nest devices connect to that at the exclusion of the actual internet connection?
Can anyone confirm or refute whether this unit will work exclusively on a LAN? Because I would love a smoke alarm that will double as a conditional night light and give me a warning before it scares the crap out of anyone when I open the oven.
However, I did not know about the ten year operational life of smoke detectors; being as the one in my bedroom is nearly thirty years old, perhaps I should look for...something...
Cloud services are useful and convenient, but these products should provide the option for local-only connectivity. The devices should have publically-documented APIs available directly on the device, and it should be possible to disable the cloud service.
As an example, I have a WiThings scale. There is no local API. It's absolutely silly that my weight and body fat measurements need to go to "the cloud".
I'm not terribly concerned that the a change in weight or body fat is going to trigger an NSA raid.
(Maybe DEA raid: "Excessive weight-gain alert! Possible inception of marijuana use!!")
On the other hand, these devices all are good occupancy indicators.
But you go ahead and spend $20 on your fire alarm, $30 on your carbon monoxide detector to have two ugly boxes on the ceiling, wake up everyone in your house (is it just you?) if you burn some toast, and when you're older, fall off a chair to brutal injury because you were trying to shut the fucking cheap shit alarm off.
Oh wait, you have never had a false alarm, so either you've never burned any food (McDonald's?) OR you haven't bothered to put a fire alarm near where one should be (your basement bedroom in your mom's house).
I now return you to YOUR regularly scheduled internal monologue, "Me me me me me me me me me me me me me... meeeeeeee... meeeeeeee..."
"Twitter Becomes TV Remote" Via connections between smartphone, Twitter, and cable box, you can now involve "the cloud" in TV channel changing. Really.
Crazy idea: what if it had the bells in whistles without the backdoors?
Then it would simply not be as useful. It would not be able to be configured, or queried, by remote. It would not be able to tie into OTHER devices with different purpose (the Nest thermostat can use these to see if people are in the house and adjust temperature better as a result).
The problem is that something with "backdoors" removed is inherently less useful because it is not as connected, or does not have as many sensors. And the day to day utility of connectivity is far, far more useful than the risk that any given device may be used to monitor you in some way. In fact, I daresay that people LIKE devices monitoring them as is evident by the legion of FitBit and Nike FuelBands... A device that someone else can use to monitor me is exactly what I want, because it can also be used by me to monitor myself!
You are fighting a loosing battle but happily for you there will always be a less functional device you can use for roughly the same purpose. You can still buy simple watches, music players, phones, fire detectors.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
1) When the CO sensor exceeds 5yrs. Replace: cost $129
2) CO sensor on the ceiling. Not where CO collects
3) For the A/C model, just 2 wires, not the red 9v interconnect protocol (Firex, Kidde). Thus all alarms (n * $129) need to be installed. This cannot coexist with a legacy detector system and provide the interconnected alarm.
Pretty enclosure though and the alerts are cool (verbal and web).
I just installed 7 A/C ionization alarms @9$ each. Good for 10years all interconnected.
H.
Now, that's a good summary!
Since yours was so well thought out and written, I'll tack onto it how they ought to do it (not having RTFA, of course).
I/we should be running a local Diaspora-ish client which stores our personal chosen configuration for all things we expect to interact with. Their whatever-thingy queries our client using a standardized protocol for the info it wants and takes what we're willing to let it take, preferably honouring our wish to delete it at a specific date or whatever other conditions we choose.
That'll be fifty bucks please. Thank you, and carry on.
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
Better yet, install a PHOTOELECTRIC detector-- not an ionizing one-- and install it just OUTSIDE the kitchen.
That's a great example of how Nest missed the boat with their design. These should have been a two-part design: a base (could have been in the square part) that provides common functionality such as power, comms, and audio plus a set of detection modules (could have been the round center shape and the snap in place would be intuitive) that could be available in various combinations of heat detection, presence detection, photoelectric detection, ionizing detection and CO detection. That would have been ESPECIALLY important to address the concern that certain detectors are required to refuse to operate after a limited period of time, because owners could just swap in a new detector module.
It's equally puzzling why they didn't rely on ZigBee or an equivalent for device to device communication instead of WiFi when their thermostat hardware already incorporated the hardware to support that.
Actually, there are several large competitors, including the open protocol BACnet that can be used by any device maker, the"open" protocol Lontalk that requires a proprietary chip, Modbus, and several more or less proprietary control protocols.
2) CO sensor on the ceiling. Not where CO collects
The experts (National Fire Protection Agency and a whole lot of experimental research says you're wrong about that. http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/Files/Research/carbon_monoxidedetectorspacing.pdf
Key part or you here "Based upon the filling phenomenon due to buoyancy seen in experiments and reflected in the filling calculations, the location of a detector low in the same space as the combustion source can lead to delays in detection relative to detectors placed high in the space. This effect is especially pronounced for large CO sources."
Got that? CO sensor on the ceiling actually provides faster detection of a CO leak. Those plug-in CO detectors you've seen for sale are intended to be placed close to an expected CO source like your gas appliances, but not intended to be relied upon for detection of CO produced by unanticipated sources.
The Nest thermostat has an initial high WAF thanks to its appearance, but ... WAF goes down the toilet when they discover that Nest hard-coded the thermostat to let temperatures rise up to 3 degrees above your cool set point before turning on the A/C and similarly about 3 degrees below your heat set point before turning on the heater. Wives get upset enough when they think you are undoing their thermostat settings to save money, but when it's some "smart" thermostat ignoring them and making them uncomfortable to save money ... watch out!
The Nest will let temps fluctuate a bit more than that if its weather data say you could accomplish your temperature change goal by just opening the damn windows.
Wow, BACnet looks about as lightweight as LDAP. But that's more of a communications protocol and not an API. So you wouldn't write a batch script to set off an action on a BACnet device over TCP/IP. I couldn't clearly tell if this even runs natively in TCP/IP. From what I can see it only runs encapsulated over TCP/IP and not really using it directly. So how would a wifi device really interoperate with a computer via an API using BACnet?
The DEA is much more interested in the poster above's irrigation system.
Of course, that provides some serious opportunities for mischief... trick people who are crazy about their houseplants to install such a system, and set the timing in a way which would be appropriate for cannabis. Then wait for the raid.