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90% of Nuclear Regulators Sent Home Due To Shutdown
An anonymous reader writes "More than 90% of nuclear regulators are being sent home due to the Federal Government shutdown, as the agency announced today that it was out of funds. Without Congressional appropriations, the nuclear watchdog closes its doors for what appears to be the first time in U.S. history. CNN reports that while a skeleton crew remains to monitor the nation's 100 nuclear reactors, regulatory efforts to prevent a Fukushima-like incident in the United States have ceased."
The idea that anything bad could happen is just crazy talk. This is the United States!
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
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What do you mean goes mostly unnoticed?
This should be fun, we already have another salmonella outbreak this time drug resistant too.
Like they were going to stop earthquakes???
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Checklist:
1. Is it glowing?
2. Is there a smoking, glowing crater where the plant used to be?
If both are no, the back to napping.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
So the government can control earthquakes now? Sounds like some FUD to me. The millions of shipping containers going un-inspected pose a much bigger risk than a skeleton crew causing a meltdown. Smithers.... who is that fellow sleeping on the job? Simpson eh?
You know what the sad thing is? Even with the government "shutdown" we're apparently managing to spend money so fast that we'll hit the debt ceiling just as soon. You'd think that the cuts would make enough of a dent to push it back a few days, but no.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
lol
As long as there is at least one person there to punch in the required code every 108 minutes, what's the worst than can happen.
Why must the world be so cruel?
In order to prevent people from feeling the economic pain of Obamacare it is necessary to inflict economic pain.
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
If your nuclear systems become unsafe in under 30 days, are they really safe at all?
Sounds like the NRC should be funded solely by fees paid by the companies they regulate.
We dont have to spend money to hit the debt ceiling, our debt will do it for us, damn interest.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
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At least the Springfield Nuclear Plant is in good hands.
Another way to look at this, is that the NRC determined it only needs 10% of it's work force for 'essential' operations. Makes me wonder why we pay for the other 90%.
Also, it's amazing to go through the list of government services and see which shutdown and which remain open. Often the ones remaining open work off of 'user' fees. For example, certain meat packing plants pay for food and safety inspectors being on site. Passport fees will keep most passport operations flowing.
One wonders why that power plan companies don't simply pay the NRC directly, like food inspectors.
This fee system seems like an elegant way to run a business....
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Because it's all a show!! There are no real cuts just a reverse dog and pony show to try to "prove" how important the federal government is.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
regulatory efforts to prevent a Fukushima-like incident in the United States have ceased.
I didn't know the Nuclear Regulatory Commission prevented earthquakes. Japan's government wasn't shut down when Fukushima happened, why didn't Japan's regulators stop it?
Give it a few days.
Hopefully these teahadists are not going to go that far. Even that seems too much.
If you can't get the votes to repeal something, just shutup sit down and deal with it.
I wonder if the $445 million that Big Bird got would have helped to keep at least a few of those regulators around:
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2013/10/08/government-gives-445-million-to-corporation-for-public-broadcasting-on-first/
It's not like a "Regulator" can actually fix anything if it goes wrong. "No disaster here move along". Now they could prevent the operators from saying "No disaster here move along." That's a little bit important but again not a disaster.
It all starts at 0
It takes two to tango. Both the congress and president are to blame. Appropriations may originate in the House, but they also have to pass the Senate and either get signed by the President or overriden after a veto by a highly unified body of legislators over at the Capitol.
If the House is holding true to their strategy as used so far this round, they've probably approved this expenditure piecemal and been rejected or not taken up by the Senate. Call it political if you like, but any politician that refuses to do so deserves to to be run out of Washington on a rail.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
So WIC does not exist in your world?
You don't understand the cost of the Federal Gov. Last I checked, wages and such cost approximately $88 Billion/year (http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolreport/2013/10/01/send-furloughed-federal-workers-home-for-good-wont-save-much-money/) and that's from the discretionary side. Grandma, disability, medicaid, medicare, etc. is 2/3 of the approx. $3.8 trillion budget. So while much of the government (I would argue the effective part) is on furlough, Grandma is not, and boy will she be pissed if the pols put her on furlough. There'll be an army of blue haired retired people tar and feathering members of Congress, I'm stockpiling buckets of tar and old feather pillows for the event.
The immune system naturally purges salmonella infections in about a week. Antibiotic treatment is not required and is not recommended. The only people who worry about this are the handful of immunosuppressed individuals who already have many other things to worry about. To the remaining 99.99% of the population a "salmonella outbreak" is at most a week-long inconvenience.
Meanwhile an October 17th debt ceiling that will cripple the world economy goes mostly unnoticed.
Mostly unnoticed by whom?
The debt ceiling is the #2 political story right now, and delivered as a tie-in to the lead news story of the shutdown.
It's listed in the first story that Google News shows me about the shutdown -- and the shutdown is the first thing on the page. In short, the second story on Google News is debt ceiling.
Not the point in the lease, the reduction of WIC is the no dog and no pony show that you are getting.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
WIC is such a small part of the federal budget that it doesn't make any difference. It follows the pattern of everything else that's been "shut down." Nothing that actually costs the government enough money to make a difference has been affected: the military is still out killing brown people, people are still getting their medicare, it's just a few high-profile things like WIC, like the national monuments to cause enough of a stir. Naturally, Republicans are blaming Obama and Democrats are blaming the Republicans, keeping the status well and truly quo.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
And the Women!
uhh.. AND THE INFANTS !
My god, WIC is a triple threat!
What's the difference by the way between a child and an infant. I wonder if some of these women aren't making double by labeling their child both a child and an infant.
There should be an investigation!
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
It's not the actual nuclear plant employees that are furloughed - even if there WERE such employees on the federal payroll, they would be "essential" and still on the job.
It is the "regulators" - aka safety inspectors that are furloughed.
Now, this brings the question - is the role they play absolutely necessary on a day-to-day basis? Even weekly? I doubt it. It's not like some nuclear plant company is going to go "Oh, well then, if they're off work I'll just start spewing toxic waste into the Susquehanna River, nobody will notice!"
Yes, the government needs to be restored to functioning (well, the 'restored' part may be up to debate...) But a day, a week, even a month off for *MOST* departments isn't going to cause major issues. The financial impacts of governmental instability are far worse than the actual 'functional' impacts.
Sadly, we'll pay all the back-pay, so it's really just a free vacation for more federal workers.
The ones who have to stay on their jobs with no pay really get the short end of the stick. Should given them a 33% bonus, and if they do a good job, should fire the workers they made up for.
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Grandma is not, and boy will she be pissed if the pols put her on furlough.
They've already cut her effective benefits in half with bureaucratic accounting tricks.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I can't stand the dogma that says the government can't do anything right. One of my clients just ran up another $50 on their legal bill because I couldn't search the geographic names database that the USGIS runs. Some of this stuff, there's literally no substitute for- and I guess I'd count nuclear regulators among them.
Technically, the Federal Government takes in more than enough to pay the interest and principal payments on the debt every month. I love how everyone pretends that's the first thing to get screwed, when the reality is that there are a lot of other agencies, programmes, and other entities and expenditures that disappear before we "default". All this talk about "default" and "full faith and credit" has been nothing but dishonest propaganda.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
That would impress me at all if the ACTUAL work being done to keep nuclear reactors safe was not all done by the workers actually monitoring the reactors. The government organization is in charge of the REGULATIONS around nuclear reactors. Regulations existing reactors all conform to already...
It might hamper a new nuclear reactor being built; but since there are so many other people trying to do that anyway I can't see we'll notice much of an effect.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Putting up all those Barrycades costs money. So is the search for a gtarp large enough to cover the Grand Canyon.
Cool story, bro.
regulatory efforts to prevent a Fukushima-like incident in the United States have ceased
As usual when we read a panicked outburst like this in the summary, we know it isn't true. For instance, TFA says ""We are going to make sure that we continue our oversight of the plants because the resident inspectors will be on duty, and we are prepared to respond to an emergency on short notice," then goes on to mention that additional help will be recalled if there is in incident. In other words, the same thing that happens if there is an incident at midnight on a Saturday.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Whether there are any essential NRC actions that are impacted by NRC furloughs, this step is meant to terrorize and discomfit the population for political ends. The community organizer meets the Constitution's "enemies, foreign and domestic" phrase as well as high crimes and misdemeanors
So why are these folks being hospitalized?
The very young and very old make up more than .01% of the population.
Which I why I suggest we fully fund WIC and defund our foreign wars.
We could start with small things like not buying tanks the military does not want and then move onto bigger things like not buying F-35s.
Yes, the federal government would just need to let other checks bounce instead of the debt payments. Much better.
Tell me something: if you stop paying your electric bill, does it affect your credit rating when you later try and get a car loan? Of course it does, even though you never defaulted on a loan! You just didn't pay some other expenditure!
Many incidents occur when a regulator (who is not normally present) is "overseeing" something.
Shouldn't simply cooking the infected meat to the correct temperature kill the bacteria?
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
Because salmonella makes them barf, dehydrate, and causes severe stomach pain. They go in for some liquid and a dose of morphine.
Life in Orange County
We have a pack of homer Simpsons to fill in for them
The fact that you think the Feds operate under such a similar system to we the people tells me you don't follow politics as closely as you seem to think you do. By the logic you are using, we'd have to send the entire government to prison on charges running our full range of felonies. Racketeering, Ponzi schemes, war crimes... the list is far too extensive to cover here.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
The Debt Ceiling can remain ignored for months. The government takes in enough tax revenue each month to pay the interest on bonds many times over. There is zero possibility of the government 'defaulting' and wiping out their credit rating.
Now, if you got that government job and thought you were 'set for life' it might not work out as well.
You believe no one dies of dehydration then?
The chicken processor should be paying for all these hospital stays.
teahadists
Clever, did you get that from the Bill Maher joke book?
No, I avoid listening to him. He is not funny.
They are religious fanatics and Tealiban does not have the same ring to it.
Assuming no cross contamination, no uneven heating and basically perfection? Sure.
If meat has to be cooked to the FDA temps to be edible I rather be a vegetarian. At the point it is so dry as to be a chore to eat.
Hopefully these teahadists are not going to go that far. Even that seems too much.
I guess you missed the speech Obama gave yesterday, in which he stated that he would only be willing to negotiate if the Republicans conceded completely and unilaterally? Compromise is a 2-way street, but both sides have put up "one way" signs and refuse to so much as discuss anything, let alone come to an agreement.
Face it - there are no good guys in this fight.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
So why are these folks being hospitalized?
Alarmism, for the most part. New parents and old folks are some of the worst when it comes to over-reacting.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Which I why I suggest we fully fund WIC and defund our foreign wars.
We could start with small things like not buying tanks the military does not want and then move onto bigger things like not buying F-35s.
Here here!
That's what pisses me off about people who rag on social programs: the cost to run them is but a drop in an endless sea compared to what we spend killing foreigners, propping up dinosaur corporations, scratching banker's backs, etc.
But they're the only programs politicians ever really manage to cut. WTF, America?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The article says 90% of employees is 3600 furloughed. Which would say the remaining 10% would be 400 workers.
To monitor 100 plants.
That would mean you could have one regulator on-site 24 hours a day, seven days a week (That's 21 eight-hour shifts for the math challenged) or 5 shifts per person, with one overtime shift.
At every plant. 24/7 surveillance, with 10% of the workforce. What the hell were they doing before that? 10 regulators per plant, 24/7?!?!?!
Life, the Universe, and Everything... in my image.
"The Debt Ceiling can remain ignored for months."
It has been. The actual "Debt Ceiling" was reached back in May. But Lo! and behold! The government found some "extra cash" lying around, and managed to survive until now anyway. Of course you don't hear about this on the news.
"The government takes in enough tax revenue each month to pay the interest on bonds many times over. There is zero possibility of the government 'defaulting' and wiping out their credit rating."
The default scare is just another Big Lie. First, the government HAS defaulted on its debt before. The most recent time I know about was when Nixon nixed the Bretton Woods system in '71, eliminating any last vestige of a gold standard. The dollar (in International Trade) was almost instantly devalued, which for all practical purposes was a default on large portion of the huge foreign debt. In fact, that's why he did it: the U.S. government did not have enough money (including for repaying debt), by virtue of its gold reserves, to cover its exorbitant spending.
Second: not raising the debt ceiling will not automatically lead to a default. The government would simply have to spend less money! Of course, Obama has been showing that he'd rather cut spending on things The People find valuable (or are scared into thinking are essential), than cut spending on things that actually make sense.
NRC workers are not the only ones being put on furlough after all. The summary should have noted that oversight is not being affected by this, only work being done on licensing new reactors etc.
The Congressional gym is staying open during the "shutdown". It is apparently more necessary than regulating nuclear power plants.
If, as Illiberals outside and inside /. are explaining, the government must not only declare various facilities — like monuments and parks — closed, but actively enforce the closures of not just the federal facilities themselves, but also of anything remotely connected (such as private motels and other concessions located on Federal land), why should any facility, that is required to be actively supervised by Federal employees remain open?
And I don't mean just the power plants — no meat should be sold, because Department of Agriculture can't inspect it, for example...
Do I want it to happen? No... But, for me to accept the infamous closures of parks and memorials (which always remained open during all previous shutdowns) as anything other than capricious, it must happen.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Because people have screwed up notions that if they're sick, they ought to go to the hospital and have a doctor treat them. For salmonella, the main problem is diarrhea and the resulting dehydration. In the hospital you get stuck with an IV and have water pumped directly into your veins. This is not only completely unnecessary, since unless you are unconscious you are perfectly capable of drinking water at home, but dangerous both due to having needles stuck in you and the everpresent nosocomial infections that no hospital is able to completely eradicate. There are very few diseases that require hospitalization - you know you've got one when you are too sick to go to the hospital yourself.
Q: What do you call 800,000 unemployed government workers?
A: A good start!
believe it is in everybody's plant license that they must be continually regulated.
rolling blackouts, anybody?
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Um, there are good & bad guys in this. This is one sides deciding they don't like something was legally put into law with some of their side's assistance, reaffirmed by the courts, and every attempt to repeal it has failed. So since the fair by their own accounts system that they have failed to game, have now decided to work outside of the established system, and threaten to create a massive financial, political, and international catastrophe because they are scared shitless of a small group inside their ranks. Plus, they are really scared this new program may actually work as intended. Repealing it if it sucks, is easy on the other hand.
Whereas the other side is saying, work within the normal system, and we will talk. Until then, let the hostages go, and we will talk. We do not negotiate with terrorists, or people who demand a random. That is exactly the role the one side is taking with this. In all honesty, a small part of me wants to see the country default on October 17th. Which is scary as hell if it happens, but catastrophe often gives rise to opportunity. Republicans keep waving their freak flag saying they demand smaller government. They got smaller government when they forced the sequester to happen. It's going to get allot smaller too if the 17th gets here without the government operating normally again.
Plus, we really need legislation that fires all of these asshats for the future without possibility of reelection if another government shutdown occurs after this. Because it will happen again if we let them keep doing this.
More fear, guys! We have to fear the gov shutting down like this. Theres no way something like this can be handled by the power companies at an increased cost to the people.
That was all sarcasm. We rely too much on our gov as it is. The only reason this news story is even here is because the gov demands to be a part of this aspect of nuclear power.
Completely agree with that suggestion. I was hoping that right after Obama was sworn in he would have walked to his office, picked up his phone and told everyone to pack up their tents and come home. 6 years of disappointment later I realise that it won't happen soon, but it would still make me happy.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
Nice try though.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
One of the issues that makes a default situation troubling, is that there doesn't seem to be anything set in stone about whether certain debts can be prioritized above others during a potential default. This basically creates a situation where some gov't officials think it must be an all-or-nothing situation, where everything is prioritized equally and if one can't be paid, then all are in default, while others think that prioritizing certain debts and defaulting on others can be a piecemeal solution.
I don't know if this has been settled, that's just what the wiki on the US debt ceiling says.
This isn't a negotiation. You don't suspend laws by refusing the fund the government. Allowing the Republivans to get their way by throwing a tantrum and bypassing the legislative process would set a terrible precedent, allowing any insane minority group to control what we can do as a people.
You'd have to have your head pretty far up conservative fake news to believe that Obama was somehow responsible for the insane teabaggers holding our country hostage.
That's what pisses me off about people who rag on social programs: the cost to run them is but a drop in an endless sea compared to what we spend killing foreigners, propping up dinosaur corporations, scratching banker's backs, etc.
This is untrue. Per wikipedia the DOD is 19% ($670B) of the US budget, while "social security" is 22% ($768B) and "medicare and medicaid" are 23% ($802B). I will grant that this chart is not at all granular and the issue is surely more complicated than this, but 45% of the US budget on just two social programs are hardly "a drop in the bucket." Personally, I think we have to cut military spending, AND social spending, AND raise revenue (however the hell we manage to do that).
I'm also at a loss as to how some people think that massive expansions in spending on medical care somehow makes things more affordable, but I think I'm at the point where I've accepted that the vast majority of people in this nation (citizen and lawmaker, on both sides of the aisle) simply don't live in the real world.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Benghazi!
(never forget)
"Sadly, we'll pay all the back-pay, so it's really just a free vacation for more federal workers."
Of the ones who are currently working for no pay. Like all the security at the capitol, etc.
No one's made any promise that currently-furloughed workers would get paid.
No one's getting a free vacation.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
First, default isn't even on the table. No matter how much some politicians may claim it is. There are laws pertaining to the prioritization. Debts are given the highest priority for payment, in both regular interest and principal payments. Bonds are likewise given top priority, as they are part of the debt. Social Security actually holds many IOU-style instruments that work (for all intents and purposes) like bonds and the treasury must give them priority like any other debt. The list goes on, and I don't know the details beyond that. Nor does any one person, really. Suffice to say the first things to go will not be "paying our bills" or essential services like Air Traffic Control. It would be a highly political process, but it certainly won't be the disaster politicians want you to believe. All it would do is force us to stop overspending and to make some very painful (to some) cuts. I'm sure you, like just about everybody, has their short-list of things that should have been gone years ago. And I'm sure just about every one steps on somebody's toes regarding their "high priority" list.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
They do.
It is why you lost your AAA credit rating. You started looking unreliable. In the same way that a guy that looks like a hobo is less likely to get a loan than a guy that is dressed in a suit. (note I said likely, obviously it is more heavily weighted on earnings and holdings, but visual appearance is a factor at the lower end of those 2 scales).
And with the number of payments and such that Treasury processes every month there is absolutely no way for them to manually separate out the bond payments because their systems were never designed for this.
So if they hand you 40 reams of paper printed with 8point text with each line being a payment do you want to be the person that has to find every bond payment in the list. Oh and you need to do the same list every single day (and it won't be in the same order).
They would need to hire 1000 people to manually sort the payments.
You can pretty much bet this process is handled digitally at this point. And probably badly.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
That's because we are unreliable. It has nothing to do with a debt ceiling and everything to do with reckless fiscal policy in general.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
The house passed a deficit reducing budget. Senate shot it down.
... the military is still out killing brown people...
You should have left "brown" out of your statement since it doesn't really apply to the present conflicts as they aren't race based. There have been people of all races killed or captured as part of the war against al Qaida, including Asians, Europeans, and Africans.
Other than that, I agree with your statement.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
If the debt ceiling is not raised we will default. That puts it on the table. If a single bill goes unpaid we are defaulting. It doesn't matter if it's a bond or a social security check. The market will treat it the same and it's going to be catastrophic. We run the risk of a collapse of the entire world economy (which is predicated on the stability of the US bond market).
Treasury has no way (without rewriting their entire software that controls the payment system) to sort payments by type. They would have to sort manually and with millions of payments due every single day it would take thousands of people to sort them all and pay only one type.
People that are downplaying default don't know what the fuck they are talking about. You want an example of default, refer to Argentina. They defaulted almost a decade ago and they STILL can't borrow money. Every single thing they import must be paid for with hard currency extracted from products they sell to other nations. Much like Venezuela they have shortages, business can't get parts and a whole host of problems that would make living there hellish. The US has a import/export deficit of several hundred billion dollars a month. That means all that stops, nothing will be imported without a corresponding export of equal value. Do you have any idea how much that would impact the world economy let alone the US economy? It would lead to a recession that would be WORSE than 2008. In fact we probably wouldn't recover from it without a big fucking world war again.
Maybe I'm being paranoid but you are seriously playing down severe risks. If we default (meaning we don't pay a bill when required) we are looking at a severe recession with high double digit unemployment that will make the last few years of 12% unemployment look like a picnic.
That's what pisses me off about people who rag on social programs: the cost to run them is but a drop in an endless sea compared to what we spend killing foreigners, propping up dinosaur corporations, scratching banker's backs, etc.
It looks like you have a distorted view of Federal spending. You may want to view this chart. This chart adds some perspective.
This chart shows the long range problem.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
To the list of 3rd world countries. The developed world will start sending humanitarian aid to the US shortly.
What social program has actually been cut? I don't know of any of significance. I do know of more that have been added. And by cut I mean we no longer spend any money on the service provided by the program. Cutting a name to allow the same service to be provided under a different name or department doesn't count.
I don't say that per the common refrain, but as a well paid former nanny of seven years for multiple families with always at least one preschooler.
Actually, the House has passed a number of budgets. All have been shot down by the Senate or have not been brought to a vote. Even if they had been accepted by the Senate they would be vetoed by Obama.
There hasn't been a real budget passed pretty much since Obama took office. The old budgeting model was to have a budget for each individual agency or, sometimes, groups of agencies. The last few years have seen continuing resolutions; its very name tells you what it is: a resolution to continue last year's spending with no formal budgeting process.
What the House is attempting now is a combination of old fashioned budgeting with the current continuing resolution model - pass an individual continuing resolution for each department. The Senate is rejecting those.
The names of the remaining crew have been leaked:
1. Homer Sampson
2. Homer Simpsan
3. Homer Sumpsin
4. Homer Samspin
5. Homer Simpsum
6. Homer Sapsum
7. Homer Sumpsum
8. Homer Soapson
9. Homer Sapson
10. Homer Simmer
11. Homer Simper
12. Homer Simpler
13. Homer Simpleson
Table-ized A.I.
It's worse than that. It's a deliberate decision to pay them for an unearned vacation rather than for actual work. That work has to be done somehow. The vacations save not one thin dime, but does its part to run UP the debt. I call it a high crime, cynically undertaken, and grounds for impeachment.
I doubt that the outbreak was caused by the shutdown in the government. There have been salmonella outbreaks before when the inspectors were working.
Then the House needs to draft something halfway sane, that has a chance of being considered.
C|N>K
Well, the house voted 407-0 to approve back pay, so it will be either Harry Reid's or Obama's fault if they do not get paid. Simple as that. But no one really believes they won't be paid. They got back pay the last time this happened (see last paragraph). And many times before that. And both Harry Reid and Obama have publically supported the house bill.
> I think I'm at the point where I've accepted that the vast majority of people in this nation (citizen and lawmaker, on both sides of the aisle) simply don't live in the real world.
Wait, is this the same real world where America, a first world nation among many, is last to provide universal healthcare and escape the clutches of barbarism?
I noticed that *all* of your links are from the Heritage foundation. If they had been from the CBO or the OMB then I might have considered your argument credible.
C|N>K
The House has passed many budgets but they've all been rejected by the Democrats in the Senate because they didn't include money for the ACA.
I'm genuinely curious: what do you think was behind your mistaken belief that that House had passed no spending bills? I ask because I come across the same mistaken belief all the time and still have no idea why people generally are in the dark about this. Are these passed bills simply not mentioned by the press?
You don't suspend laws by refusing the fund the government.
How do you feel about Obama suspending laws by refusing to enforce them? Hmm?
tHEY are apparently getting ready to go underground in various parts of the world. If they could be impeached, that would probably only make it better in a lot of peoples' minds, but wouldn't matter in the end. They have truly usurped the American dream for themselves.
Historical precedent is that backpay will happen and the legislation to do so this time is only waiting for Senate approval.
Here, knock yourself out. I doubt you'll like it any more.
The question of accuracy in reporting is a separate question your liking their views. There are some hard truths out there, and apparently not all of them will be from sources you will listen to before judging.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Ah there we go! Ok! Well I guess I'll worry if a tidal wave hits a nuclear reactor before the Government gets rolling again!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
"regulatory efforts to prevent a Fukushima-like incident in the United States have ceased."
Well that sucks, that 30 foot Tsunami could strike at any time...
It doesn't matter if it's a bond or a social security check. The market will treat it the same and it's going to be catastrophic.
Wow, you are completely wrong on that one. I'm not even sure why you would think the market would treat that the same. Does the bank treat you the same when you fail to make a mortgage payment as when you fail to pay an electric bill? No, they don't.
It's a difference between, "I'm not going to get paid" and "some other guy is not going to get paid." If the US demonstrates a willingness to make bond payments before social security payments, it could actually increase purchases of US debt.
Maybe I'm being paranoid but you are seriously playing down severe risks. If we default (meaning we don't pay a bill when required) we are looking at a severe recession with high double digit unemployment that will make the last few years of 12% unemployment look like a picnic.
Yeah, you are being paranoid. If the world loses confidence in the US debt, you are right that would happen, but 'failing to pay any bill' is not going to cause that to happen.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
The house has passed the exact same sane bills that would be in a clean cr excep separated from a single cr.
How that is not sane is beyond me. Please explain what you think is sane.
Damn regulators.
he'd rather cut spending on things The People find valuable (or are scared into thinking are essential)
Isn't that how it is supposed to work? If he (and by extension, "the gov't") did what he damn well pleased, isn't that... a dictatorship...actual tyranny?
As for "what makes sense" - you'd get 435+ different answers as to what that is if you asked, I don't know, the House of Representatives.
It's also true that House Republicans negotiated clean bill back in July with the Senate and reneged on it a few weeks ago because "OMG Obamacare!". It's a fact that there are enough votes right now in the House to pass a clean bill if only one was put up for vote.
While I have no love for either party, and I would love to do a clean sweep in all three branches of government, the blame for this crisis lies primarily in the lap of one group. The Republicans (and more specifically, the Tea Party) are throwing a tantrum because they couldn't successfully repeal ACA (despite 40+ votes), and they are holding the government hostage until their demands are met.
In another week, expect a default for the same reason.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
It's not a temper tantrum. It's the way it works under the Constitution (ever read it?). Spending bills originate in the House. They control spending. If they don't want to fund a particular insane law, then so be it. It's up to the Senate to end this shutdown.
Harry Reid asked what gives the House the right to pick and choose what gets funded. Well, Harry, it's called the Constitution and it works when idiot politicians don't ignore it.
"You want an example of default, refer to Argentina. They defaulted almost a decade ago and they STILL can't borrow money. Every single thing they import must be paid for with hard currency extracted from products they sell to other nations."
There's a big, and I mean BIG difference between Argentina and the U.S.A. Remember the saying about having a problem when you owe the bank a $100 dollars? If you owe them a $100 M, then it becomes their problem. Argentina is practically a nobody in the world economy (sorry Argentinos), but if the US defaults, expect everybody from China, Japan, the Arabs, to the EU (having their own credit problems) to pitch in and try to solve the problem.
The "only" downside is that the next president will probably be a IMF/WB or some other international finance syndicate puppet.
Now if you're really being paranoid about a US default, then stop thinking local, think about global recession and World War III, as the reicher nations start arming themselves in a free-for-all for resources that could no longer be acquired by normal trade.
I remain a big fan of new nuclear power with passive safety. However, the old plants need a SHIT load of baby sitting. This is not a good thing.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I love how everyone that isn't required to run the government for a week is suddenly expendable. Shit, I haven't had a fire in years in my house, dunno why I'm paying for a fire station.
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
you sir, are an idiot, have you ever had food poisoning? you _can't_ hold water you barf it up every time you try and drink it - you need a fucking IV you moron
The Tea Party is primarily about economics and government fiscal policy, not religion. That's where the name comes from: Taxed Enough Already.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Nothing to worry about, the free market will take car of things.
Actually no, that is not how it works under the constitution. If you want to repeal a law, you repeal it, you dont end round the constitution by trying to defund it, making it still a law, yet one not enforced.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Hmmm. Lets see... Impending reinspections on many of the nuclear reactors that have reached their EOL but applied for extensions. Best way to avoid this? Hey lets blame the US shutdown and send all the regulatory staff home. No more regulatory issues!
Next step. Uh huh you guessed it!
"Isn't that how it is supposed to work? If he (and by extension, "the gov't") did what he damn well pleased, isn't that... a dictatorship...actual tyranny?"
No. The way it's supposed to work is that the government operates lawfully and Constitutionally.
The Government is breaking the law by not having passed a budget in 4 years or more. As a result of that (by definition) crime, the government has given itself discretion, not backed by any law, as to how it will spend its money.
Obama is further breaking the law by furloughing civilian employees at a Strategic Air Command base, when he just signed the Pay Our Military Act the other day, which was passed UNANIMOUSLY by congress, and which REQUIRES him to pay civilians working at military bases. Does it "make sense" to ignore the law you just signed over a political hissy fit? Isn't THAT "doing whatever you want"?
The fact is that Obama -- as long as he is not OTHERWISE breaking the law, as mentioned just above -- has a lot of discretion over how the government is spent. And there are government employees who have been saying they have been directed to make this shutdown "as painful as possible" for the general public, while he goes golfing and carries on as he pleases. His recent trip to Africa alone would pay to keep the White House tours for school children operating for the next 25 years! Yet he did go to Africa, and he shut down the tours.
No. THAT is not the way government is supposed to work.
FDA heat recommendations for beef, pork, veal and lamb is 145 Fahrenheit (about 60 celsius). Since I used to live somewhere where ambient temperatures hit 50C occasionally, I'm a little skeptical that food only warmed 10 degrees would be "so dry as to be a chore to eat".
The FDA recommendations look pretty reasonable to me personally, except for the fish one and eggs one perhaps - we've got massive salmonella testing here in the UK (not the rest of the EU though), which means essentially raw eggs are fine (not that I eat them raw, I just like runny eggs).
Oops, forgot the link.
Pass a law that the CEO of a company running nuclear reactors has to move in no further than half a mile away from one as soon as there is an accident there.
Yes, I'm aware that this is very likely a death sentence. That's the point.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
More energy for everyone!!!! That is how it works right??
Who are the US borrowing from? That's the primary question in my opinion.
I don't think the answer is simply China, or the IMF. At the moment there are hundreds, if not thousands of organisations the US has borrowed from, many of them privately owned. The situation is the same with my country, the UK.
Because of this debt, every single one of the organisations has leverage against the government. The debt is the problem, because for better terms, they get something. Going into debt is bad, especially when you need to.
It's one of the reasons I've got some respect for Clinton, because he balanced the books... I'm pretty left wing socially, but fiscally I'm traditional right wing - balance the books first (you can do both - left wing does not imply excessive state services). Left and right wing get mixed up so much now, anyway.
Oh, and I also think Richard Nixon was one of the best US presidents, for similar reasons. That and he ended the Vietnam War, which people like JFK could not. I know I'm in a minority here....
You have *no* idea what you're talking about, medically speaking.
Water in an IV would kill the patient -- they use Lactated Ringer's Solution (or something a lot like it), which is a mix of various electrolytes/salts in a concentration that closely mimics blood plasma. If you became dehydrated due to vomiting/diarrhea, then the chances are that you can't keep remotely enough liquid down to make up for the fluid loss, and could wind up in serious danger. If you try rehydrating with plain water, then you'll fuck up your electrolytes to the point that you might as well be dehydrated, as your cardiac, neurological, etc. systems will increasingly malfunction.
Even if someone goes to the emergency room out of fear, doctors *only* admit patients to the hospital if they genuinely need to be there. Dehydration is usually treated in the emergency room or urgent care; if somebody is hospitalized, it's because their body is in more serious trouble than "gee, have a sip of water" dehydration. The reason elderly people & babies end up at the ER or hospitalized more often is because they *die* more easily from damn near everything than healthy children/adults, including dehydration.
Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
The what? That thing that Obama was paid to lecture about in Chicago but has, apparently, never actually read?
Funny, it worked well enough for the Democrats (specifically Reid) to try in 2007 with the Iraq war.
Those cuts are a drop in the bucket compared to what's not being cut, specifically "national security" (which includes spying on the world's population, and fighting distant wars).
Oh and I've also not heard of salaries of politicians, specifically congressmen, being cut. That'd be a very good spending cut, not only because it makes the people that are directly responsible for this stupid shutdown feel it directly in their own pockets.
No, I noticed how Obama was willing to "compromise" once the Republicans met his every demand. For an ex-college lecturer, the guy sure has a limited understanding of the English language.
This problem is American. If really really bad things happen, you can't blame the terrorists, you can't blame foreigners, the TSA and DHS won't save anyone. Elements of the Republican and Tea parties want to destroy the American government, and they are doing a really good job of it. This isn't the end of it though. They want to stop increasing the debt ceiling and let the US default unless Obamacare is defunded. At one time, the leader of the Right said he wouldn't deny the increase, but now says he won't allow the increase unless its defunded. I suspect Americans (even ones on the right) will find out exactly what its like to have no government services. America risks being the default global currency of choice. Once that happens, printing more money won't solve America's problems anymore, and China will be very nervous about buying more American debt. America will suffer, and not just the poor: the rich will suffer very badly.
Why can we not pay for existing debt without approval to rack up more debt? Can you even imagine yourself walking into a bank and ask for a loan and the only reason you need the loan is to pay off a portion of your existing loan at another bank?
If we stop getting new stuff on loan, then we won't have to raise the debt ceiling.
" IMF/WB or some other international finance syndicate puppet" Like Obama isn't? and probably Bush as well.
Would that be the CBO that just recently reported federal spending will increase $621 billion because of Obama care or would you prefer a more Obama friendly CBO?
Put the money down... just put it down and back away.
Stop spending money you don't have!
So breaking signed contracts with people operating businesses at a profit on federal lands is the sane good guys? Funny how elections have consequences now, ut under the opposition dissent was the highest form of patriotism. Goobers.
That and he ended the Vietnam War, which people like JFK could not. I know I'm in a minority here....
Well, yes. Most of us don't expect dead people to do much of anything, let alone stop wars.
"Wow, you are completely wrong on that one. I'm not even sure why you would think the market would treat that the same. Does the bank treat you the same when you fail to make a mortgage payment as when you fail to pay an electric bill? No, they don't."
Yes actually they do, its called a credit record and every blemish is just another reason to not let you borrow money. This is similar in that its not so much who you pay and when, the markets will react to any perceived threat of not getting money back from a investment. Reality is not even so much the issue, if people think you are not going to pay back a bond the markets will have major issues.
What is wrong with becoming self sustaining? If we couldn't import, and I highly doubt that, we would simply make the stuff on-shore. Companies that have their own credit are doing the importing. i.e. Walmart
Looking at the list of imports:
1. Oil (18.6% of total imports)
2. Machines, engines, pumps (13.5% of total imports)
3. Electronics equipment (12.7% of total imports)
4. Vehicles (10.5% of total imports)
5. Medical, technical equipment (3% of total imports)
We need to get off of foreign oil anyways, and everything else on that list we can employ people here locally to make it. On your argument alone, I would contest that this is exactly the shot in the ass the US needs.
And yet congressmen get their paychecks..... you have to have priorities.
It's time to impeach this president and get rid of our current congressmen / congresswomen and then entire house of representatives. Remove the Obama czars, and get rid of the Fed chair.
Lets wipe the slate clean,
Lets start over and fix this freaking mess of a country.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
No, that is just rhetoric. They are very much aligned with the christian far right.
For beef, veal or lamb that is about 10-20F degrees more than I would like. I believe the numbers used to be higher or perhaps I was looking at the ground number. If the choice was to only eat burgers at 160F or never eat them again, I would go for the latter.
I was more speaking about chicken though, which at 165 is quite dry. Eggs I prefer white set and the yolk starting to become creamy. Hard to hit that exact temp though.
Okay I don't think allowing nuclear plants to remain understaffed is a good idea, this isn't walmart, if things go wrong its a game over scenario.
You mean he wants them to acknowledge a law that already passed?
No shit. If they want to repeal it let them try.
There might be no good guys, but one side is much worse.
If you are vomiting constantly you can't hold down water. So it has to go in via a needle. They do not use water, that would kill you by messing up your electrolyte balance among other things.
That is just rhetoric which I assume results from your Leftist alignment. It isn't true though.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Nobody is working "without pay". They are working without cash. They will be back paid.
This is an additional liability held by the government but it is not shown on debt to the minute.
Really, you want to make that claim?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valarie_Hodges
She was endorsed by the tea party and went nuts when the school voucher system she supported was going to be used to fund muslim schools.
This is not the only one I can find like that. They are primarily a christian right movement who uses the rhetoric of taxes and states rights to advance their real causes.
Sorry, but no. What you are overlooking is that people don't leave their other beliefs behind when they join an organization. I have little doubt you could find all manner of different statements or actions among the many legislators and other people aligned with the Tea Party movement. That doesn't mean it is legitimate to generalize that one person's views to be a reflection of the movement as a whole. It may be entirely possible that people that are "Christian" and "right" are more inclined to join the Tea Party. But the movement itself doesn't have a religious component that I have seen, despite claims from various sources on the Left. If you looked around hard enough you could find Christians in various Marxist organizations, does that mean Marxism is a Christian movement? Hardly. Did the presence of Van Jones in the Obama administration mean that it was a Communist government?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The movement is simply a cover for this sort of crap.
Of course they don't come out and say that, then it would not be a very good cover. The birthers don't come out and say they are racists either. The people leading this movement are using it for this purpose. The useful idiots might not all notice, but they generally don't in any movement.
There is a difference between having one communist in your group and your group being 100% communists.
I guess we'll just disagree on this point since I don't think there is anything close to enough evidence to support it, and you seem to take that as evidence for a hidden agenda.
Were the people that claimed John McCain wasn't born in America, and therefore disqualified from running for president, racists too? (We'll leave President Clinton and Vince Foster out of it.) There seems to be an awful lot of labeling any opposition to President Obama or his agenda as racist. Handy way to end an argument though.
Hmmm... are you quite sure that the administration isn't just secretly communist like the Tea Party is secretly "Christian right" and it only slips occasionally, like Anita Dunn? It wouldn't be good politically if they were known to be communist.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
It's insane because they are cherry-picking the areas that have the most public visibility in an attempt to minimize the apparent damage, but knowing that the bills will fail. They have yet to pass a bill funding any of the social programs so, for example, kids don't get nutitional assistance. Almost no one (except the kids) are impacted by this, but whether you like it or not, it's a program the government put in place and so should fund. Ditto for the EPA, Natioinal Labor Relations Board, etc. etc. etc.
If the House doesn't like a program, there's a procedure. You pass a bill removing the program, get the Senate to pass the bill and the President to sign it. If you can't get that support, you shouldn't try to subvert democracy by the econmic equivelent of strapping a bomb to your chest.
I believe my mistake was in not being specific when I said "social programs."
I actually meant to limit the scope of my bitching to a subset of the larger social welfare program - specifically, programs like TANF, SNAP, WIC, and anything else that specifically deals with providing basic necessities (outside medical care) for day-to-day survival.
I don't even want to get into SS and medicare... I think it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that both programs have become lumbering, unwieldy behemoths.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Please provide some evidence. Show me one atheist leader of the tea party. Show me a muslim, heck show me someone other than an old white guy. Show me someone from a state that gives more than it takes in federal taxes. Show me any sign that they are more than useful idiots for the richest rightists in america.
Where were these folks the last time he ran? Handy way to end an argument? How about no other explanation. Find another reason, please. Try to remember even if he was born abroad as his mother was a USA citizen he would be a natural born citizen.
Secretly Christian Right? They do all but proclaim that title. When you support folks like that you are not trying very hard to keep a secret. They are openly allying themselves with these folks.
If they were communists the ACA might have included single payer or a public option. How I wish it were so. The administration is barely center right.
"If you punish ordinary opposing views in debate you aren't committed to free speech. Prove me wrong."
Badly reasoned rhetoric deserves to be shut down. If it's presented as clear and cogent philosophy, a side dish of embarrasment is heartwarming.
If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
For the misinformed, 90% of the 10% that are still on the job are the Resident Inspectors of the nuclear plants. These are the "paper pushing regulators" that are at the plants every day. They are still there, doing their daily inspections to ensure the plants are operating safely.
It's funny how CNN refers to the "skeleton crew" that is still working, but operations to prevent a Fukushima like disaster have ceased. It's not the NRC's job to operate the plant. They are there to ensure the plants are operated safely and within the design limits. NRC employees are not allowed to tell operators what to do, are not allowed to touch the controls, and are there to ensure federal regulations are followed. A Fukushima like disaster, as unlikely as it already is, is prevented by the plant operators that are some of the most highly trained professionals in any line of work.
Well, that's a lot of words you said there to answer a different question.......
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
You have a very naive view of what actually happens in that situation. Bills get paid, we simply are forced to stop incurring new ones and to cancel what would have become some other bills.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Apologies for steering offtopic, then. Still, when we exclude the behemoths, "welfare" is still something like $700M a year, which is still larger than the entire DOD budget.
Granted the source here is a Forbes op-ed so is almost certainly is going to slant toward the conservative side (indeed, one of the things it counts as "welfare spending" is the child tax credit. While this may be technically true, it's certainly not what most people bring to mind when the word "welfare" comes up and is more appropriate to a discussion on the subject of tax policy than welfare reform. It's quite probable there are other similar things buried in the numbers that are simply not expanded on in the article) but I think it's a good starting point for discussion. I found the below to be quite interesting:
The second part (if true) is, frankly, jaw dropping and goes a long way (along with our oversized military spending) to explaining how we got into the mess we're in today. Literally five decades worth of congresses and presidents would have utterly failed in their duty to spend the nation's capital wisely (not to mention the people in genuine need who most likely will have suffered in such a scenario).
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Hey, my bad for not being clear to begin with.
The second part (if true) is, frankly, jaw dropping and goes a long way (along with our oversized military spending) to explaining how we got into the mess we're in today. Literally five decades worth of congresses and presidents would have utterly failed in their duty to spend the nation's capital wisely (not to mention the people in genuine need who most likely will have suffered in such a scenario).
Pork barrel politics, man; everybody wants to get them a piece of the pie, and damn the rest of society.
I'd like to think there's a way out of this mess without hurting the people with the most to lose, but the more thought I put into it the more I realize just how far up Shit Creek we've gotten since dropping the oars over the side. Seems the only way the system can be fixed at this point is to tear it completely apart and start over from scratch... which is going to hurt.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Pork barrel politics, man; everybody wants to get them a piece of the pie, and damn the rest of society.
As bad as pork barrel spending is, I don't think that's the case here. The figure mentioned was specially "welfare" spending, and I don't really see the congresscritters lining up to bring home the tax money by building, say, a homeless shelter in their district. :) If I had to make a guess, my money would be on things like programs that cost several times to administer than what they actually pass on to people as help. Conservative or liberal, I think everyone can get behind fixing problems like that (except, of course, for the fact that we haven't, so maybe it's indeed pork that's the issue).
In this, we agree completely. My personal fear is that ten years from now we will wake up and realize that we're living in Greece. My personal terror is that I'm wrong about the time frame and it's even closer than that. The poorest people are absolutely who will bear the brunt of it, though I think that pretty much everyone with a net worth below a million bucks or so is pretty much fucked.
You're also right about the solution, though there is no one with the political will to implement it. The worst part is that every day we delay in fixing the problem, things get even worse, and the correction at the end will be even more painful... which means that our "leaders" will even be less inclined to try to solve the problem. It's a vicious cycle, and it all comes back to the fact that we're fucked. Short of, say, the russians and the chinese nuking each other and creating conditions similar to those that were present in the late 40s, there is really no scenario in which the US economy can grow our way out of the mess. :(
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
I don't think that 19% DOD figure takes into account other military related spending, like the VA health system. If you add up all the costs of defense, I think it gets pretty close to 900 billion. I don't have an average since 9/11 handy, but you can see in 2013 that military related spending was 830 billion http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_defense_spending_30.html
Still you are right that social safety net spending of one kind or another is a large percent of the budget.
The chart I posted was either from 2011 or 2012 (the wikipedia editor appears unsure of this... filename says one thing, title says another), and there's another $1.1T in "mandatory" and "discretionary" spending that could mean, frankly, anything. I find your $900B number to be completely believable.
I realized when I posted that I had sub-optimal figures, but I believed (still do) that they were good enough for the discussion. In any case, I think the following is something we can all agree on: "At least half our budget is "entitlement" spending. At least 20% of our budget is military spending." My personal opinion is that we spend too much on BOTH of these things, and don't collect enough revenue to really support either, so something has to change. I DON'T believe, however, that this is something we can all agree on. :)
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Nonsense. The house passed bills that would provide funding for specific interests but that doesn't make those funding bills not sane. What makes them not sane if you intend to hold that concept is the fact that the democrats refuse to take them up and insist on a single all inclusive bill that only does what they want it to do.
Actually, not funding something is a valid procedure too. It has been used several times in the distant past as well as the recent past. Here is an article describing the more recent events concerning the ACA.
http://beforeitsnews.com/healthcare/2013/08/guess-what-congress-has-already-defunded-parts-of-obamacare-2449918.html
The rhetoric of claiming it is terroristic or comparing it to strapping a bomb to your chest is just childs play to anyone who is actually paying attention. I know it sounds good in ideological circles but repeating it shows how armature those participants really are. Thomas Jefferson, as president, ended up with a similar issue of a law being passed and not being funded. He also ended up creating an impoundment of existing funding in order to secure new generation gun boats for the Mississippi river. To think this is all something new and never done before is like ignoring history ever existed. Granted, I can understand why you might not know some of these things as the interweb doesn't list unlimited sources of it like it seems to do for anything post 1999. But rest assured that all of history that has happened pre1999 is still history and still relevant.