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TEPCO Workers Remove Wrong Pipe Get Splashed With Radioactive Water
An anonymous reader writes "A day after TEPCO workers mistakenly turned off cooling pumps serving the spent pool at reactor #4 at the crippled nuclear plant comes a new accident — 6 workers apparently removed the wrong pipe from a primary filtration system and were doused with highly radioactive water. They were wearing protection yet such continuing mishaps and 'small mistakes' are becoming a pattern at the facility."
http://imgur.com/5fYFq3P
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
The most troublesome thing about this nuclear pipe water tipping incident is that there is nothing funny about it. What possible humor is there in this? Shall we call the place "Tipco" or something? Shall we make jokes about the water itself, and say silly things like, "Oh, they spilled water? Hopefully it wasn't heavy water! Get it? Hehe." Dumb stuff like that. Or talk about the fact that at least they were wearing protection. So they won't get a disease. Surely, that joke would be pregnant with humor. This is the trouble with posting on Happy Hump Day.
. . . the boys should not be trusted with nuclear anything. They know how to take notes and make lists, but when it comes to handling risk, they're clueless.
I once found a radioactive test sample in a dumpster when I worked for a medical device manuf. in Tokyo - there are many more stories to go along with that one. Like how we were told if there was a fire to first order a pizza, then tell the firemen to follow the delivery to the fire. A lumber yard caught on fire one night, and we watched as the sirens and flashing lights on the fire trucks zig zagged around the neighborhood - 45 minutes later, the fire was out and they still hadn't found it.
An outside multi-national agency must be brought in or these types of calamities will only continue with TEPCO.
Every time TEPCO appears in the news I swear I hear yet another "Doh" soundbyte.
That will look perfectly normal to the three eyed Tepco workers.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
In Japan? Even asking for a giant Mech to help fight Godzilla is considered a failure.
I think tepco has now become the new 2013 slang word for cluster fuck or a dumbshit move.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Queue the malcontents to stir up the idiots with OMG TEPCO IS KILLING TEH EARTH!!!1
Stop it. They're handling vast quantities of water in thousands pipes, tanks, tunnels and pumps. Some of it is going to leak. Some of it will spill. Sometimes it will get on someones rad suit. This isn't incompetence or the end of the world. It is the natural and expected consequence of dealing with fucking plumbing.
Whatever. This hysteria has an expiration date; after the 50th OMG THEY SPILT SOMETHING story people will get tired of it and the media will seek out some new source of hysteria.
That is, at least, as it should be. It would be nice if we could just not indulge this stupid shit to begin with.
Its almost like the are in a culture where you can't call out people's mistakes and follow orders blindly.
... this is what happens when all the smart people stay well away.
And that, boys and girls, is where tentacle monsters come from.
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How do you accidentally remove the wrong pipe when you're working with nuclear stuff?
I've worked in the software and IT industry for quite a few years, and in that time I've learned that there are things you do that need to be precise, because you can make a hell of a mess if you don't. To do this, you measure twice, measure a few more times, and have your second who has been watching what you're doing confirm you're doing what you expect to be.
I learned this from maintaining production systems for business critical stuff, and a few things for which lives could literally be on the line. But at the end of the day, it's still less dangerous and critical than working on a nuclear plant.
This just sounds to me like either they're fumbling around in the dark, working from incomplete plans and don't actually know what the parts are, or are just simply not taking time to do the diligence on what they're doing.
Especially when it's your ass that's going to get splashed with highly radioactive water.
For a nation which has a reputation for fastidious attention to detail, obsessive safety drills, and engineering excellence ... how the hell are they ending up with a company which has made so many 'mistakes' in this?
Once again, I have to wonder if these guys are actually qualified to be running nuclear reactors. Because this is two accidents in a few days, and I get the impression that a lot of this was also caused by human error.
The mind boggles.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
More than likely the workers are all getting fatigued and small mistakes are starting.
It's well beyond time for the Japanese government to bring the Japanese military in to bring this under control. After that an international effort to assist Japan in any way required. Even considering the pride of the nation as a factor it's now becoming an international problem for any country that shares the pacific ocean.
This is well beyond TEPCO's ability and expertise, they are a utilities company. Furthermore it was their negligence through nonfeasance that got us into this mess in the first place. A criminal investigation should be conducted and the future of the company considered.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Anybody feel up to a rendition of 'Yackety Sax' on a geiger counter and a selection of alarm klaxons?
"Energy" is an awfully persuasive argument. Without it, your civilization will crumble to little more than medieval standards of living surprisingly fast.
Given that Japan has ~0 coal, oil, gas (not even much wood, per capita), it was either nukes or imports. Much of the rest of the world hasn't had to face up to the problem as dramatically because they've got a big stash of cheap 'n nasty coal somewhere convenient. That has its own downsides; but those have proven easy to ignore (unless you make the mistake of living in our under-construction Appalacian Lunar Theme Park or something).
More than likely the workers are all getting fatigued and small mistakes are starting.
It's well beyond time for the Japanese government to bring the Japanese military in to bring this under control. After that an international effort to assist Japan in any way required. Even considering the pride of the nation as a factor it's now becoming an international problem for any country that shares the pacific ocean.
This is well beyond TEPCO's ability and expertise, they are a utilities company. Furthermore it was their negligence through nonfeasance that got us into this mess in the first place. A criminal investigation should be conducted and the future of the company considered.
Replying to you because I accidentally moderated "Offtopic" instead of "Insightful", oops. Apropos of your comment, I'm really tired today and it's been a long day at work.
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
News from Fukushima? Excellent! Let me update my Tohoku Earthquake Casualty Report. Here it was yesterday:
Deaths..Injuries/Illness..Location/Cause
.....0.................2..Fukushima Daiichi NPP (Radiation exposure)
.....2................37..Fukushima Daiichi NPP (Earthquake / tsunami)
.15000..............6000..Rest of Japan
Here it is today:
Deaths..Injuries/Illness..Location/Cause
.....0.................2..Fukushima Daiichi NPP (Radiation exposure)
.....2................37..Fukushima Daiichi NPP (Earthquake / tsunami)
.15000..............6000..Rest of Japan
TEPCO, Forrest Gump. Stupid is as Stupid Does. radioactive.
It is difficult to understand why TEPCO is still in charge. Their record for managing this mess is not appealing.
They have sun and water. You'd think they'd be looking at something, anything else.
Learn to love Alaska
It's entirely possible that much of 'they' weren't really asked. If the decision-making around Fukishima (when it was first installed) was anything like that around Minamata, stonewalling and general contempt for the 'opinions' of whiny little people was the official policy of both business and state.
I grow tired to reading with radiative elements and contaminated materials being labeled merely "toxic."
Sitting in a room for few hours with a closed bottle of bleach won't terminally wound you, not like the water leaking from the Fukishima plant.
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
It seems a lot like SNPP
the plant where Homer Simpson is working?
"Energy" is an awfully persuasive argument. Without it, your civilization will crumble to little more than medieval standards of living surprisingly fast.
In my estimation, Japan was not remiss in using nuclear power. Your comments about their lack of energy resources are spot on. nuc was and is a good option for Japan.
What they were stupidly and criminally negligent in was building the way they built it, and mainly in the location where they built it. The plant was built in an area of historic Earthquake and Tsunami activity. Worse, the wall built to protect against Tsunami waves was insufficient to protect against waves that they knew would hit it.
The historical and geologic record shows this to be the case. The Japanese have records of when Tsunamis happened in the past, The geological record shows the gravel drops where the waves hit their highest level.
The Fukushima plant was going to be hit with an earthquake and Tsunami, and one of these events was going to have a wave height higher than the protective barrier.This was as close to scientific certainty as it is possible to be.
So what is a country to do that needs power and decides that nuclear is the way to go?
First of course, is to determine the risks, and determine how to mitigate them.Earthquakes and Tsunami are the main bugaboos in Japan. Since a large source of water is needed, you probably want to site the plant by a fresh water river. You want it far enough from the ocean and at a sufficient altitude that the Tsunami wave that will happen will not reach the plant. You want to place it in relative stable area regarding seismic activity.
Then after all that, you add a nice big safety factor in your design
But the toughest part is the politics. As likely as not, someone has a nice piece of property they think would just be crackerjack to sell to the company making the plant. There will be pressure to get done on schedule, and almost always, the bean counters trump the engineers.So other factors end up compromising the design, and you get a plant that has total certainty of a catastrophic failure.
As the technological issues are addressed and surmounted, it is yet to be shown if the political and human factors can.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Radioactive Clown Music.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
My last post on this topic a couple days ago was "I'm starting to get the impression that Tepco only hired idiots." This has now been 100% confirmed.
If memory serves, both the US NRC (presumably because GE was involved, or because somebody asked) and their Japanese equivalent pointed out that there were... issues... with various aspects of the facility(including flooding-related ones that ended up being a problem, in addition to retro reactor design problems that they didn't know about); but nobody likes that guy who can't be a team player, and so such issues were not addressed.
The reactors were too old. They should have been mothballed 15 years ago. The failsafe system was redundant, but not inherent. This is a mistake. If the workers need a complex set of maps and drawings and with all their skill and caution, they still make a mistake, then clearly the design of the plant is overly complex. I know there are people who cry out "destroy them all", but really, there is no good replacement for nuclear power. Wind, water and solar are no replacement. They just aren't. Where I live, its 8 watts per square metre. 8 watts during the daytime, at its peak. 8 watts if the panels were 100% efficient. That's what the sun puts out. My house uses a lot more power than that. Cutting back is not an option when its in the middle of winter. I already use LED lighting. I already use efficient equipment. We need nuclear power. We need clean, safe, nuclear power. We need modern designs. 99.9% of all nuclear plants use a 50 year old design. Modern designs don't have the problems of older systems. Why do we still use them?
Yes, it would be detectable. But that doesn't mean it would be at levels that pose a significant incremental risk to the wider ocean environment or human health.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Should we militarize the entire American workforce given that 13 Americans die every day in workplace accidents?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Great link, thank you.
Yes, there is.
Recently, I have been going over distinctions between western/American and Japanese cultures. It has been widely accepted that Japanese cultures do not require leaders as much as western/American cultures. When and where things are established and routine, accepted and understood, the Japanese excel in ways that make western/Americans a bit jealous and often awed. On the other hand, crisis management is best handled by smaller numbers and individual thinkers who can collectively see more because they all see things differently.
There are other aspects as well and among these are in how errors, mistakes and anomalies are perceived and handled. When and where the first response is denial, it is an early sign of delayed problem resolution. In a crisis, delays in problem resolution are sometimes deadly. I believe we are seeing this at play now.
I once, in a committee with both Japanese and American members, pointed out that Columbus Day essentially celebrates a mistake of navigation and of understanding the world. The goal was to reach India. Columbus ended up somewhere else. We literally celebrate that and name things after this man. (The truth behind myth and legend is for another discussion and does not change the general truths, myths and legends the holiday actually celebrates in the hearts and minds of the people celebrating.) I pointed out that Americans, at times, celebrate mistakes. This is something the Japanese simply cannot do. The room went silent for a moment. Mistakes are not to be discussed, let alone acknowledged, in Japanese society.
I could go on and on about my experiences in this area, but each approach has its merit and each approach has led each culture into extremely successful growth and development in the world. After all, Japan and America (by which I mean the USA obviously) are highly developed and sophisicated world powers. To simplify and say one approach is wrong while another is right is ridiculous. Japan's way is "mastery" but it takes lifetimes and usually multiple lifetimes to achieve and maintain mastery of any given thing. America's way relies on talents, aptitudes and abilities of individuals to achieve great things. Which is better? We're both here at the same time after all.
They got people in Japan who can read Japanese signs. Chinese vistors!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The densities are higher with Japan, but in the US, if everyone put panels on their roof, we'd be able to close most power plants. And no, the radiation from the heavy metals isn't that bad.
Learn to love Alaska
Would it be detectable? The background radiation would be many times higher than anything Fukushima caused, unless the type of radiation is different enough to pick out of the background.
Learn to love Alaska
The people working there are probably not very qualified or intelligent, I mean anyone who was would not be there. These people probably can't find work elsewhere. I imagine the danger pay of being around that much radiation is very attractive to certain people, who are willing to take the risk of cancer in later life for money now.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
Known unstable and dangerously radioactive environment. Workers fully aware of dangers and thus, arguably, more than a little careful about their every move. And still, dangerous mistakes were made. Given the profound consequences of human mistakes in the operation of nuclear reactors, tell me why, again, that it's a good idea to build them?
Yes, occasionally incidents like this happen. There are 100 reactors at 60 sites in the US, and at each of those reactors, 6-12 pieces of equipment get tagged out, dissambled and worked on each day. Offhand, I'd say incidents 'like' this (That is to say, embarassing screw-ups with managable consequences but no catastrophic outcome) happen perhaps 5 times a year. (100 reactors*250 working days*6 work items = >150,000 oppurtunities for errors.)
It wouldn't be accurate to say that it's not closely scrutinized- the resident NRC inspector at each site is aware of everything that happens at each site. As long as the incidents are managed properly and happen rarely, these incidents won't even be a footnote in the NRC public reports.
From what I understand, the NRC is much more strigent than the japanese equivalent, and US Nuclear Emergency Preparedness has always been way ahead of the Japanese. After 9/11, for example, the NRC ordered a whole new level disaster response capability for every US nuclear site. I would say that if the japanese had done the same, the Fukushima Diachii Reactor cores would still be intact. The NRC has ordered new post-Fukushima contigency plans, but these additional measures are rather simple given that they build on post-9/11 contigencies finished years ago.
Comedy capers would be quite suitable as well :-)
I read somewhere that they're soon going to begin trying to pull the 1331 rods out of spent fuel pool #4 (the full one on the first floor), one by one, without dropping any to the bottom of the pool. That sounded like a very risky but necessary operation. I sincerely hope that there won't be *any* news about it except for before and after the successful operation.
GO TEPCO! The world doesn't hate you, it cheers you on, guys and gals!
PS. Triskaidekaphobia is lame.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
Okay, this is complete and utter bullshit.
Maybe, in the southern states of the union, this MIGHT be a plan. But only if SOMEONE builds in the appropriate power storage infrastructure (which currently doesn't exist). Otherwise you have no power in the evenings.
In northern climates, care and maintenance of panels would eat up massive quantities of time, and the weather can be severe enough to destroy panels. Additionally, there are going to large swaths of time, due to ambient conditions, where the panels generate NO power whatsoever. Even during the day.
Sorry, but "ubiquitous solar" is a pipe dream. And most solar advocates know better than to try and suggest it.
Then there's the environmental impact of building all those panels...
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Me to. If anyone somehow doesn't get the reference... this will do.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
The only protection worthwhile is protecting the respiratory and digestive system, because anything going in that way will stay long. These people got the same dosage as if they had been doing this naked, but with filter-masks. Might not be a good idea for any of them to reproduce now and they have won a significantly increased risk of cancer as reward for their incompetence.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
And given that it's 40 years old and US tech, they'd probably be talking to the wrong decider.
Yeah. And apparently an earthquake is going to kill quadrillions. Welcome to the New Slashdot. Where Facts are Flamebait, and Idiocy and Innumeracy are Insightful.
Maybe, in the southern states of the union, this MIGHT be a plan. But only if SOMEONE builds in the appropriate power storage infrastructure (which currently doesn't exist). Otherwise you have no power in the evenings.
It's a shame nobody has come up with any means to fix that. Perhaps they could use the surplus day energy to pump water up hill, then use hydro in the night. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity Nope, someone's thought of it, and there are plants in place right now (though they run the other way, base power at night pumped in and peak take out the next day).
Sorry, but "ubiquitous solar" is a pipe dream. And most solar advocates know better than to try and suggest it.
They get tired of arguing with ignorant Luddites. I don't mind. It's kind of fun. Like playing with an ant or other small bug.
Learn to love Alaska
Thanks for failing to address the issue of "what do northern states do?"
Well it's obvious isn't it? Become economic slave states to the energy producers!
Also, what's the environmental impact of having panels and hot salt towers EVERYWHERE?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Thanks for failing to address the issue of "what do northern states do?"
Sounded like an idiotic rhetorical question. There are lots of off-the-grid cabins in Alaska. Quite a few of them get by with solar and batteries. Yes, even with things like 24/7 satellite Internet. It works in Alaska, but would fail miserably in Kansas or whatever moving line you'll assign for declaring failure.
And if energy was "free" how would they be economic slaves?
Also, what's the environmental impact of having panels and hot salt towers EVERYWHERE?
Less than coal plants outputting the same power.
Learn to love Alaska
Not talking about a hunting cabin in BFE Alaska. Talking about states like Illinois, Wisconsin, New York, Maine, etc.
Many of these states simply don't see the amount of sunlight necessary, and/or suffer inclement conditions that reduce the usefulness of solar.
"If energy was free"
And if we all rode unicorns....
Sorry, but this is a stupid, bullshit pipe dream. The materials used to manufacture panels are a nonrenewable resource. And it costs to acquire them and manufacture (not to mention install) the panels. "Free power" is a myth.
And when I asked about the environmental impact of all those panels?
"Less than coal plants outputting the same power."
You suppose right? Call me when you have real data, not pie-in-the-sky hopes and dreams.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
You suppose right? Call me when you have real data, not pie-in-the-sky hopes and dreams.
Yeah, any question I don't answer is because I don't know anything. Any question I do answer, you dismiss if you don't like the answer. I do have real data. And the cost is less than 1/10th what the naysayers assert. Solar panels got cheap enough in the US that we banned imports of cheap ones. Yet we aren't buying them up when the cost is low.
Learn to love Alaska