Slashdot Mirror
Cadillac Unveils Pricier Alternative To Tesla Model S
An anonymous reader writes "Cadillac has officially unveiled its Tesla S alternative, but at $5,000 more than the Tesla, it may not be the cheaper option you've been looking for. 'Cadillac is touting the ELR's 8-inch touchscreen powered by its CUE infotainment system — which two years in is still a buggy mess — along with a range of safety and convenience features, including lane departure warning, forward collision alert, and a 24-hour concierge service to answer questions. There's also a "regen on demand" feature that allows the driver to boost the brake regeneration, slowing the vehicle and recouping energy by pulling on the flappy paddles behind the steering wheel. GM's bean counters are quick to point out that depending on what federal and state tax incentives buyers are eligible for, the net pricing could be as low as $68,495, but that's still a tough sell considering you're basically getting a Volt with more presence and less practicality.'"
So your feet never get cold when you're pressing on the pedals.
Since TFS doesn't give any detail worth noting, this thing has two doors (not four like the S), a laughable 35mi electric range before the gasoline engine kicks in for 300mi total (which is still fairly bad, especially when the S has 208-265mi range pure electric depending on the model), a smaller (8" vs 17" for the S) touchscreen with a poorer OS/UI, all that for $75k. Oh yeah, and it looks like a blockier Volt. In fact, it's pretty much a Volt with a few extra features at twice the price.
If this is the best GM can do, they better get back to the drawing board quick.
Get a plug in Prius or similar. A small gasoline engine is not going to damage the environment. It's ludicrous to use all electric given the low range.
I applaud efforts to reduce CO2 emissions. I despise people who do it ass backwards.
...to help pay for the heath and retirement benefits of union employees who already retired at 55.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
I should not reply to AC, but...
the assembly plant is right here in silicon valley.
parts for EVERYONE are always made in china or overseas somewhere. even mighty caddy has parts made overseas. no one can resist the lure of cheap parts. but assembly location does matter and its built here, not in china.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
And the Tesla S has more power off the get-go than a BMW M5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4). You're forgetting that these are toys for rich people.
I'm Elon Musk and I approve this negative review of my competitor's product.
Yes, which means it's crap. Seriously, American-made cars have been crap for years, and all but the most deluded patriots realize this.
Really, it *IS* your father's cadillac.
It looks like news outlets all over the place are comparing this to the Model S, but then like 2 sentences later point out how it is mechanically basically a Volt. How does that make it an alternative to the Model S at all? Doesn't that just make it an alternative to the Volt? Was the Volt an alternative to the Model S?
Nope. Per TFA:
essentially a two-door Chevrolet Volt with a handsome exterior and a leather-lined cabin.
1) Subjective. I fail to see much difference, except I'd bet the dashboard seams in the Model S don't squeak after 5k miles like every GM product's dashboard, ever.
2) Subjective. The Model S is a beauty, and the Volt is not. This car is a boxier Volt, which makes it even uglier, IMO. Then again, I've never known GM to build anything that looks better than the average pile of animal feces.
3) Its battery life is pathetic, so it makes up for it with a mediocre ICE to charge with. Wake me when it has a range near 1000 miles, which is what a setup like this should be sporting.
4) A GM? Not likely. I have yet to see one last much beyond the warranty, and I've seen several that didn't last even that long. GM should be replacing Country Time any day now.
5) Where is GM from 10 years ago? Gone? Buyouts and bailouts are two different things, and GM was bought out. Meanwhile, Tesla paid back their loan nearly a decade early. And that loan wasn't part of a bailout or a buyout, it was an R&D loan for their electric vehicle technology.
6) Window dressing. Any idiot can bolt on more irrelevant crap, and GM hires the best idiots they can find to do exactly that.
american assembly is not a problem.
american influenced design is the problem.
quite a big difference.
otoh, tesla is an outsider and not the usual car company. I would not expect old school gm or ford to be even able to design (much less make) a tesla style car.
if I could afford an S, I'd get one. even with the gawdy and unwanted laptop screen in the thing, I'd still probably get one.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Fashionistas might like it. It goes well with the new Hasselblad-decorated Sony NEX7 http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/06/10/hasselblad-lunar-now-shipping or the new Leica M decorated by Jony Ives and Mark Newsom.
Of course, some of a certain age might remember the last time Cadillac tried this, in the '80s, with the Cimmaron, a rebadged Chevy Cavalier with the addition of clear-coat paint and a hideous chrome-plated luggage rack on the top of the trunk lid. It nearly led to the death of the brand.
As an American and as a human being with a conscience, I don't know whether to root for a success here, or to well-deserved failure. Mebbe newly-rich Chinese and Russians are attracted to these, but even they will, eventually learn the real value of things. They'll spend a hundred bucks on a Ferrari baseball cap and call it a day.
that may as well be 0 inches for all the good a lcd screen is in a car when the sun hits it, do you think "sorry officer i had no idea of my speed because the sun is shining" will work ?
as for having touch as an interface is beyond stupidity in a car, why do 99% of cars have knobs and buttons ? clue: it isnt a technological problem its more of a "how can i adjust ac/settings/radio/nav without taking my eye of the road"
good luck in court
Cadillac has picked up their game across the board from the ATS, CTS and the XTS with what has to be just about the greatest turn around of any automotive manufacture ever. I have every confidence that they will get this car right and that it will be worth the proverbial money. Hell, even Top Gear magazine (typically very Anti American) gave the ATS and new CTS high praise.
GM should have made this car before they made the Volt. People are far more likely to accept a pricier car at the luxury end of the segment (eco-sheek) than in the family segment where it is much harder to justify the price differential. Now the problem is that people will think of this as an expensive Volt and that may make it difficult to sell.
What are those? Is that the technical term?
1) A nicer interior
2) A nicer exterior (tesla is bland, this is one of the nicest looking cars ever)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... and you need to get your eyes checked. This so far from one of the "nicest looking cars ever" that it makes me wonder if you've ever seen any other car in your life.
3) A car you can drive anywhere without charging
Of course, not charging it will eliminate most of the benefits of lugging that 400 lb battery around everywhere and will make your fuel economy go down significantly, but hey... you can still point at it and claim you're environmentally conscious, right?
5) Support from a company that wont be out of business in 10 years
Let's just ignore the fact that GM filed chapter 11 bankruptcy just four years ago and had to be rescued by the government. That's completely irrelevant to whether the company will be around in 10 years.
6) A lot more technology features (the tesla has a rear view camera but not much else)
"Cadillac is touting the ELRâ(TM)s 8-inch touchscreen powered by its CUE infotainment system â" which two years in is still a buggy mess"
Technology that is badly designed and doesn't work properly isn't a selling point.
...then we can pout and claim that Americans don't want electric cars.
Americans don't want your crappy electric cars, they want a Tesla.
When GM does something like this it just advertises that they're a dinosaur stuck in the tar pits of history.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
parts for EVERYONE are always made in china or overseas somewhere. even mighty caddy has parts made overseas. no one can resist the lure of cheap parts. but assembly location does matter and its built here, not in china.
The Model S has only 55% of it's parts made in US/Canada:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8233&d=1343437424
The vast majority of Ford/GM/Chrysler cars are above this percentage, although only slightly (mostly in the 60-70% range). There are a handful that are significantly higher, as well as a handful significantly lower. I can't find any info about the Cadillac ELR, but the Chevy Volt is only 46% US/Canadian parts:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/2012_Chevrolet_Volt_window_sticker_01_2012_0483.jpg
.
You're saying this is "so far from one of the nicest looking cars ever"?
I come here for the love
It is unbelievable that this article is taken seriously. The writer refers to the shift paddles as "flappy paddles behind the steering wheel". This tells me that the person writing the article knows nothing about cars and did very little research to reach their conclusions.
If the author had been willing to do some actual research, instead of generating a fluff piece, we would have a comparison of the features between what's included with the Volt and the Cadillac version. Perhaps there are a few more things under the hood than a re-badged Volt.
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/cadillac/2014-cadillac-elr-ar128653.html
That's because of the battery. But all the electricity it uses will be domestic :-)
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
There are a lot of people who spend $k to by a wrist watch even though there are perfectly good and accurate watches available for $20. Watches are functional jewelry. A lot of people avoid digital watches because they aren't usually very nice looking.
There is a large segment of the US population that regards cars not just as transportation, but also a statement about themselves. Cadillac has always been a prestige brand. People who buy Cadillacs aren't interested in diving a Chevy volt because Chevy is a blue-collar brand. The fact that it costs more than a Volt or Tesla makes it MORE attractive to Cadillac buyers.
I agree with everything with the exception of number 2, "Then again, I've never known GM to build anything that looks better than the average pile of animal feces." The 69 Camaro was pretty nice.
The fact is, that GM and other car companies are desperate to buy some time and push a fuel cell that uses nat gas, either directly or indirectly (for hydrogen). By the time that these companies have something worthwhile on fuel cells, Tesla, Nissan, and probably Chinese car companies, will be monster companies competing against them with real electric cars that have ultra-caps.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Actually, little of it comes from China. Batteries are currently from Japan. The electronics are from taiwain. And most of the rest is American. OTOH, I am willing to bet that less than 60% of this caddi is from America.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Why flamebait mods?
The guy makes some interesting points
Yes.
Trying to do the angular sharp look of an aventador, but falling SO wide of the mark that it doesnt even register
Tesla S is much nicer to look at.
"You're forgetting that these are toys for rich people."
The Tesla perhaps, the article talks about a toy for rich, old people.
GM should concentrate on making a better volt... Isn't the goal these days to do one thing right (twitter founder)?
Don't get me wrong, I love my Volt and I'm at +250mpg, but make the Volt a KILLER car, not only good...
My 2 cents.
My guess is that your average Tesla buyer will probably be repelled by Cadillac. ...
Aimed at different markets, of course one is repelled by the other. Just remember that there are also a lot of rich people that live in the midwest "flyover" states. Let's see how many of each are sold in the next year or two. Remember, there are many more Cadillac dealers than Tesla dealers, and (outside of some /.'ers and other early adopters) most people want to have a dealer nearby.
I'm pretty annoyed at people trying to compare the ELR or the Volt to a Tesla, or Leaf, or any other pure electric. The biggest reason why I wouldn't buy a Tesla is because total electrics are still impractical. If you look on the Tesla website, you'll see that I'm basically limited to a 300mile radius to where I live. This is because at 300 miles, it'll take 4:43 to charge my 85kw battery with the supercharger. Bump that down to a 240v outlet, and its a 9:26 charge. And thats after spending nearly 95k for the car, because the 70k version only goes about 200miles. There are some tricks to get 80% 'fairly quick', but you're still adding hours onto each segment of a roadtrip.
Which is where the volt comes in. For -most- people, they only need 30-50miles a day in their car. BUT, if you want to take a road-trip just 5 hours away, you're going to want a way to get there without spending 4 hours charging. And at $299/mo lease, its cost isn't much different than some nicer compacts of its class, and for everyday driving you spend nothing on fuel.
I'm -my- use case, and driving style (where I go) -- I think given the choice of a Tesla or ELR, I probably would go with the ELR. At least then I wouldn't have to buy another car so I could goto the beach, out camping where there is no power, or any of the other places the 'supercharger' grid hasn't made it yet. But in reality, the volt is nice on its own, I don't have any desire to pay another 35k to have a neat badge and a blocky-looking car. Don't get me wrong, I think the Tesla is a nice car, but without the gas generator, its a non-starter for me. Now put a little Diesel TDI generator in there, and I'd buy a Tesla in a heartbeat!
I thought the whole point of regenerative breaking was to capture the energy lost to breaking. It should it be automatic? What's the point of a 'demand' paddle?
Is that even the same car? The pictures in TFA don't look anything like that. The one in TFA looks boring and bland. The one you posted looks like a prototype that never saw production.
Learn to love Alaska
He makes no points. "I don't like it" was the point. Posting an opinion as a fact (especially a controversial opinion) *is* flamebait.
Learn to love Alaska
When GM came out with their first diesel car engine back in 1980-81, they basically took a gas V8 and did some minor tweaking to create the 1981 Old Toronado diesel. This car is widely considered to be one of the 10 worst in automotive history.
This reminds me of that.
Model S is the only "long-range battery electric luxury car" out there. In that, there is no competition. All the hybrids still retain their internal combustion engines, and with them all the added weight and complexity and breakage and exhaust and dirt and oil. So you cannot compare hybrids with battery electric vehicles, as they are completely different thing. Hybrids, even plugin hybrids, are not "long-range battery electric cars". All other battery electric cars are not long-range, and are not big/luxury cars.
If you are comparing "luxury cars", then you need to add BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar into equation, and compare it on things like performance, interior, feeling, ride, design etc. I doubt Cadillac would fare well in this comparison.
I wish Tesla cars got to Europe sooner...
--Coder
most of GM parts are made in mexico, they just do the final assembly here
I'm not aware of any other production long-range battery car? The Model S is the only all electric car with a 200+ mile range that does not include an ICE, luxury or not.
I'm more impressed each press release by Tesla - not because of anything in particular, but because it seems so impossibly hard for every other manufacturer in the world to even get to half of the Model S range on batteries alone. In fact, if there weren't actual, on the road vehicles I would say - based on their marketing literature and the performance of every other manufacturer - that they were full of shit and may as well be hyping the Moller AirCar.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
"Hello, is that the 24 hour concierge?"
"Yes, speaking! How may I help you, sir?"
"This car is shit. Where can I trade it in for a Tesla?"
"Hasselblad Lunar"? This is an actual lunar Hasselblad, accept no imitations!
Ezekiel 23:20
If you only have the resources to own a single vehicle, you're not the target market for ANY all electric.
As a side note, I find it impossible to imagine hauling a load of plywood in my Subaru sedan, 6 people and luggage to the beach in my truck, or take my minivan on snowy roads to go skiing. Amazingly, with three vehicles between me and my wife I can do all of those things *AND* average about 26-28 MPG combined on all the vehicles. It can't be done with a single vehicle, but that doesn't mean that any of the three are wholly impractical.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I think you're right. I just googled "Cadillac electric" to get that pic.
I come here for the love
Thanks for the link. The batteries, which are a pretty major component by cost, are made in Japan by Panasonic. I was really hoping Tesla would find a way to work with an American battery vendor, but that didn't work out so well for Fisker, so I can't say I blame them. The steering column and maybe a handful of other stuff is made by Mercedes, who owns a small percentage of Tesla. This probably accounts for why it has a lower percentage made in the US/Canada.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
You made sense until your last word. Ultra-capacitors aren't happening. As batteries steadily get cheaper, you can use a bigger battery. A bigger battery can handle more power, so it can cope with more braking regen and recharge faster (and deliver more horsepower); and it's not cycled as much as a smaller battery, so it lasts longer. That reduces the fast-charge and longevity benefits of ultracaps, which are still far more expensive and heavier than a lithium-ion battery of the energy. Ionova claims 10 Wh/kg for their ultracaps while li-on is over 100 Wh/kg. In theory you can recharge an ultracap in seconds, but the future fast charger to recharge a Model S battery in a minute has to deliver 7000 amps at 500V instead of ~240 amps, so it's going to cost a fortune.
Ultracaps still have a chance in hybrids, the Prius only has a 1.3 kWh battery. Only price keeps ultracaps from replacing that battery. But again, as batteries get cheaper, more people will expect to be able to plug in.
=S
Why can't cell phone companies make good cell phones? Why did Apple and then Google have to show them how? Why didn't Sony build iPods? How did they let Apple do it first, years after Sony should have dominated the market? Why can't big car companies make a good electric car? Why did Tesla have to show them how? Why is GM even offering this stupid model, and why did BMW offer an even dumber one? Is it to prove to themselves that electric cars are a bad idea? Why are all of these examples Silicon Valley innovations?
Honestly, I just can't figure out whats wrong with GM, BMW, Motorola (before being bought - the Moto-X rocks), Sony, and so many other large iconic corporations. It's one thing to lack a marketing genius like Steve Jobs. It's another to be so incredibly stupid that even the average slashdot geek can see your product will be a dismal failure. There is simply no way that this car, or BMW's freak-show of an electric car will succeed. Why are they wasting their time and money? Why are they so stupid?
Honestly, I don't know. I know a bit about business, but I can't make sense of corporations acting so illogically.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
A bit? :)
The 918 Spyder starts at $845,000.
It's more than ten times the cost...
Please help metamoderate.
One more example - not from Silicon Valley! Why are the big cell service providers so dumb? Coverage sucks everywhere, yet it takes tiny Republic Wireless in North Carolina to figure out that cell phones should switch to VoIP when WiFi is available? Why is it so hard for big companies to do the obvious right thing?
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
It is unbelievable that this article is taken seriously. The writer refers to the shift paddles as "flappy paddles behind the steering wheel". This tells me that the person writing the article knows nothing about cars and did very little research to reach their conclusions.
Actually, you just showed you know less about the automotive world than they do.
"Flappy paddle" has been the derogatory term Jeremy Clarkson and the other Top Gear presenters have used for years upon years, and it's now in widespread popular use. It referred to three things, early on: 1)Automatics with paddles that simply said to the transmission "shift up or down now", which usually happened eons after you pushed the paddle and the transmission still has all the inefficiencies of an automatic 2)Automated-manual transmissions which had horrendous "creeping" functionality, poor usability/interface (ie 3 point turns were mind-numbingly hard/slow/complex), and broke down a lot because of the complexity of actuators/sensors/etc. 3)Sequential transmissions that were brutal in terms of comfort (having been adopted from racing applications) and poor creeping functionality.
Nowadays the term is mostly used by automotive fans who hate anything that doesn't have a manual gearbox, even if it's a perfectly reliable 7 gear, double-clutch transmission that shifts so smoothly you can do so mid-corner and not upset the car's balance, and can shift so fast it has to wait for the engine to match revs...
Please help metamoderate.
"Regen paddles?" Why should the driver have to control the power train at that level? Regenerative braking should happen during any braking, as it does on most other electric cars. For light braking, regenerative braking is enough; push the brake pedal down further and the brake pads engage.
This isn't a new concept; it appeared first in the PCC streetcar, from 1936. (San Francisco still runs a fleet of them.) The PCC cars had a whole hierarchy of braking. As the brake pedal was depressed, first the drive motors went to regen mode, dumping power back into the trolley line or into big iron resistance grids on the roof. Then the brake shoes were applied to the wheels by compressed air. Next, four big rubber brake buffers pressed down against the rails at four points. Finally, if you floored the brake pedal, the sander came on and dropped sand ahead of the lead wheels for extra grip. The operator didn't have to think about this - just step on the brakes.
Sillier things have appeared in high-end electric cars. There was one European prototype which not only had "shifting", but an engine noise generator feeding the car speakers. You actually had to shift as speed increased. All this did was feed an input to the control electronics, but it gave the illusion that the driver was doing something "high performance".
That was 44 years ago. The guy who designed it is probably dead.
Finally! It's about time Cadillac has come out with the successor to the mighty Cimarron!
God I hope so. The first batch of cars that catch on fire or just fall apart in a thousand miles will be awesome.
I wouldn't be surprised if the battery components were originally mined in china.
Posting an opinion as a fact
3) A car you can drive anywhere without charging
Is a fact.
I hate when they do that. They have radical styling and packed full of things like auto-park and HUD with IR HUD overlay, and when the final car shows up, it's a 2-door Leaf. In some alternate universe, they actually produce the concept cars, rather than storing them for use in movies. Demolition Man's police car, a concept car from 20+ years ago, still looks futuristic today.
Learn to love Alaska
No, he redefines "charging" to mean "plugging in", and "charging" is something it does almost constantly after 35 miles, and whenever it brakes.
Learn to love Alaska
Well, what should happen when you lift off the accelerator? In a conventional car, the engine brakes the car, and engine braking increases in lower gears. So GM has reused the concept to adjust the amount of brake regen when you lift off. Other electrified cars coast, or apply a set amount of regen. I don't know what VW's new plug-in hybrids, with a conventional dual-clutch transmission, do.
Tesla hooks brake regen up to the accelerator pedal, so as you lift off more more brake regen increases, turning it into an accelerator/decelerator control. One-footed driving sounds like a blast.
=S
As Anonymous Coward points out elsewhere, sharing a powertrain is NOT a rebadge. The ELR looks nothing like the Volt, therefore it is not a rebadge.
=S
3) Its battery life is pathetic, so it makes up for it with a mediocre ICE to charge with. Wake me when it has a range near 1000 miles, which is what a setup like this should be sporting.
Wow, not sure how you get +4 with utter crap like that. You thing that setup should be sporting near 1000 miles? OK, lets see about that. Presumably, you don't think that the model S has a pathetic range, so we'll use that as a baseline for what you think a car should get. The modelS gets 230 miles off a 60kwh battery. So that means the Volts 16kwh battery should get 60 miles. So yes, the Tesla makes more efficient use of the battery. But lets get back to that 1000 mile figure. So we've got 60 miles from the included battery. That means you think it should get 940 miles from the included fuel capacity. Well, it has a 9.3 gallon tank, so apparently you think it should be getting 101 MPG? Sorry, but even the best production motorcycles don't get that high. For production cars, the best ones only get about half of that.
So I think about 500 miles would be the absolute tops you could hope for in a really efficient car with those specs. Granted that's a bit better than its actual 380 mile range, but it's a far cry from your BS 1000 mile figure. If you are throwing out fantasy numbers, why didn't you just say 5000 miles?
The battery range of the Tesla is pretty damn pathetic, really there are two reasons for why the Tesla S is as big as it is,
a) because power density of batteries is still so bad it took a car that size to carry them
b) because only rich fools are easily parted with their money and people vastly underestimate their numbers
Nope. Per TFA:
essentially a two-door Chevrolet Volt with a handsome exterior and a leather-lined cabin.
Exactly.
Comparing it to the Tesla S is patently ridiculous.
16.5 kWh lithium-ion battery pack in the Volt finds its way underneath the creased sheet metal of the ELR, as well as its 1.4-liter gasoline-powered range-extending engine. That allows the Caddy to motor along on electric power alone for up to 35 miles before the gasoline engine kicks in to juice up the pack and keep the ELR going for a claimed range of 300 miles.
Claimed range of 300 miles is when you run out of gas.
You get 35 miles on battery.
Its Volt technology in a much heavier car.
Comparing that to real world Tesla range makes for pretty depressing reading.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
So GM is getting back to basics, returning to their old system of charging at multiple tiers for phony differentiation of a base model which is technically inferior to pretty much everything out there. I can't wait for AMC to return with coal-fired Pacers and Gremlins.
T-Mobile has had WiFi calling since at least 2006, probably longer. Republic Wireless is nothing new or innovative.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Apparently the people who thought this person was insightful are as clueless as he is. It's an extended range EV-- the Tesla is a straight-up EV. Looks? Well, better than the Volt, but looks are subjective. As for battery range... one thousand miles?!?! That's just being ridiculous. Let's criticize the Tesla S for not having a 750 miles range, which is what a setup like this should be sporting.
4, 5, and 6 are just plain silly-- My last GM ran for 10+ years and was going strong when I traded it in, and "new" GM is a restructured old GM, not a bought-out.
Tell you what... Let's race. Me in an ELR, you in a Tesla S. First person who gets to the other side of the United States wins. Note that I'm in Florida, and there aren't that many chargers around here. On the other hand, the ELR can fill up with gas whenever it needs to, and charge overnight when it can.
If you've got legitimate criticism of the car, that's fine... But just bashing for the sake of bashing is moronic.
T-Mobile also has VoIP built-in to many / most of their phones, and Republic Wireless isn't exactly the model of a good idea done well... many RW customers complain that calls get dropped when they go past the range of WiFi, exactly what RW claims doesn't happen, and exactly the problem with the idea in the first place.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Regarding the look, the nose of the Cadillac looks like it's chopped off to make a 'snout' - not great, though the rest looks quite good I guess.
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
2) Subjective. The Model S is a beauty, and the Volt is not.
You just said that as though it was an objective statement. Other than that, I agree with you, I do prefer the look of the Model S. I ALSO think it's objectively nicer, but that would be incredibly hard to prove with the current state of research into aesthetics. Maybe give it a millennium ;)
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
The idea here is that a properly-tuned fixed-RPM engine should be able to charge those batteries several times over on a tank of gas. And if the batteries were worth a damn (see the Model S), then those batteries would carry you a good distance.
So let's say that a tank of gas, with a fixed-tuning engine properly sized for the charging generator, can charge the batteries 3 times. The Model S battery pack gets 230 miles from a charge. And it gets 3 charges on top of that, for a total of 920 miles of range. Now we're talking.
Anyone wanna do the energy-density calculations to see if this is in the right ballpark? Because I'm thinking that a 2x improvement in mileage is pretty conservative and has nothing to do with fantasy land. Of course, if you want to derp around with a hybrid solution, then, yeah, the efficiency is going to be shit and it's going to be about like what you calculated.
"...5) Support from a company that wont be out of business in 10 years..."
GM had to make a choice, keep Saturn, or keep Buick. The Chinese liked Buick; GM's words, not mine. And the once ubiquitous Saturn, while affordable, is no more. Good job on that one GM?
And another thing, it was Tesla that punched a hole in the Dealership wall, not GM. In this case, GM is the Camp Follower.
The idea here is that a properly-tuned fixed-RPM engine should be able to charge those batteries several times over on a tank of gas.
If you're using your gas to charge your battery, then you'd be going more efficiently by directly using the gas.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
... GM had to make a choice, keep Saturn, or keep Buick. ...
My Saturn dealer (a big multiline dealer) bought out a local Chevy store last year. When I take the car in for service (some parts on the LW300 are dealer only), I get the same service writer and some of the same techs that worked at the Saturn dealer. So--no big deal.
What I will miss, at least in the short term, is the Opel designs that Saturn was basing some of their cars on. Nice German mechanical design, at GM price.
depends how efficiently a fixed rpm engine can convert gasoline to electricity. very hard to drive wheels with a fixed rpm engine.
....the hybrid equivalent to the Cadillac Cimmaron for the 21st century.
Looks are a matter of taste. I for one do not care for a half acre if gaudy chrome grille, nor the headlights that appear to have melted and slid up onto the fenders. It makes even the new Cherokee look pretty.
Inside looks nice but 5000 dollar nice? Too many buttons. Just like Tesla and many others I am annoyed by the aversion towards nice big easy to use dials for climate control. Both have gimmicky interiors.
Not sure where the 10 year lifespan comes from...not seen any evidence that the Tesla could not last longer or that replacing batteries would not be cost effective. Concern about charge time is valid...but again that can be addressed in less expensive ways than the hybrid caddy.
Your comments about company longevity are totally baseless as well. GM is technically no older than Tesla...the original GM went bankrupt and folded in the recession. Its viable assets were bought up by a new legal entity back by government billions...they are no better than Tesla in that respect...probably worse for all the billions spent to keep some form of GM in existence. Trsls is established enough already that even if they went under someone would back/support the vehicles.
yes it is. T-Mobile VoIP calling doesn't switch to cell tower when Wi-Fi gets weak.
You don't use the engine to drive the wheels, you use it solely to generate electicity and charge the batteries.
It might make more sense to use a gasoline-powered fuel cell than an engine.
Wait didn't GM do this in the past? As I recall it was called a Cimarron. I had one, it was a hand me down, a 1982 model, didn't have enough power to get out of its own way.
Detroit just doesn't get it, they are stuck in their old ways, "We will build what we want you to have, not what you really want, and you'll like it!"
It took Detroit many years to learn that adding cubic inches wasn't the only way to boost horse power, ok I admit cubic inches sound really good but turbo chargers work very well at adding horsepower too.
Yeah...it is almost Aztec ugly.
Technology that is fundamentally defective by design and can't work properly isn't a selling point. Who in their right minds wants a touchscreen-controlled anything in a car? That's exactly the opposite of making cars safer. You can't control a touchscreen without taking your eyes off the road for an extended period of time.
Touchscreens have no place in the front section of a car unless they are mounted to the left corner of the dashboard so that at least you're roughly looking at the road.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Gonna need to see the schematic and the source code, Cadillac. Same with you, Tesla. The elephant in the room on all new cars now, not just gasoline cars, is Michael Hastings.
I think they both look cool.
The idea here is that a properly-tuned fixed-RPM engine should be able to charge those batteries several times over on a tank of gas. And if the batteries were worth a damn (see the Model S), then those batteries would carry you a good distance.
So let's say that a tank of gas, with a fixed-tuning engine properly sized for the charging generator, can charge the batteries 3 times. The Model S battery pack gets 230 miles from a charge. And it gets 3 charges on top of that, for a total of 920 miles of range. Now we're talking.
Anyone wanna do the energy-density calculations to see if this is in the right ballpark? Because I'm thinking that a 2x improvement in mileage is pretty conservative and has nothing to do with fantasy land.
Assuming you and the GGP are the same AC...moving the goalposts a bit now, huh? You said, when referring to the volt, that you should get 1000 mph out of THIS CONFIGURATION. Well guess what...THAT configuration has a 16kwh battery array, not 60kwh or 85kwh as the model S does. Now suddenly you are talking about adding the volt's engine to an array the size of the model S. Guess what...not you've got the inefficiencies of having to do the power conversion, plus you have the weight of the huge battery array, plus you have the weight of the ICE, plus the weight of the gas. Oh...and lets not forget about costs. Instead of a $40k or $80k car, you're added all of this expense and complexity together, so you are now probably talking about a $100k car. Yeah, I'm sure that's going to sell great, even if you could get that mythical 1000 mile range out of it.
Of course, if you want to derp around with a hybrid solution, then, yeah, the efficiency is going to be shit and it's going to be about like what you calculated.
See...again, you've moved the goalposts. The configuration we were talking about WAS a hybrid solution. That's what your 1000 mile range figure was based on...what a configuration like the volt has should get. Now you are saying "oh yeah, well hybrid IS going to suck". Well guess what....if it's not hybrid...if it's purely electric, then you DO NOT HAVE AN ICE in the car to recharge the battery. So how exactly do you "charge the batteries 3 times" without having an ICE in the car?
You're all over the place here. It seems like you just have a hatred for GM and/or the Volt and it's causing you to just start spewing garbage without even thinking about what you are saying. Let's be real here. The Volt is far from perfect, but lets have some reality in the criticisms of it, and not just go spewing garbage that makes no sense.
> 3) Its battery life is pathetic, so it makes up for it with a mediocre ICE to charge with. Wake me when it has a range near 1000 miles, which is what a setup like this should be sporting.
This is a serial electric hybrid. You are evaluating a metric that only really matters for an all-electric car.
A Volt (or any other car with a gasoline engine) can make a journey of 1,000 miles significantly faster than any car tesla makes. They can also be rescued if energy runs out with a common plastic container, instead of a tow truck.
An electric car is an excellent choice if your daily commute and fiscal budget allow it. (I know people whose daily commute is well over 100 miles each way.). But they are simply not the same category as hybrid cars, be those hybrids serial or parallel.
(And, yes, I know that the Volt's engine and likely the ESR have a physical connection to the drivetrain that is used at certain highway speeds. That makes it a semi-paralel hybrid, not an electric car.)
Honestly, I just can't figure out whats wrong with GM, BMW, Motorola (before being bought - the Moto-X rocks), Sony, and so many other large iconic corporations. It's one thing to lack a marketing genius like Steve Jobs. It's another to be so incredibly stupid that even the average slashdot geek can see your product will be a dismal failure. There is simply no way that this car, or BMW's freak-show of an electric car will succeed. Why are they wasting their time and money? Why are they so stupid?
When you consider the tax and govt funding benefits it makes a lot of sense. The German and US govts throw huge amounts of money at car makers, GM is one of the biggest offenders. In order to get more money they have to do certain things that governments want them to, electric vehicles are one of these things. So they take the money and produce a mediocre EV, because the EV doesn't sell they claim this against the tax the govt asks them to pay.
So a failed product can actually be quite profitable when there's govt money involved.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Too bad the first thing GM did not do, was change the "1.4-liter gasoline-powered range-extending engine" with a state of the art Euro-turbo diesel. Then the thing could be diesel electric, not like a locomotive but more like a submarine. 1.6 liter might do it. ...
When you are slogging around in traffic it runs on the battery. The power unit could just cut in to fully charge the thing when necessary, and provide direct drive for hi-way speeds just as it does with the petrol unit.
Again this is GM, does anyone else remember the "Cimarron" looks like GM has done it again.
On another note, it is not an electric car like the Tesla it is a serial hybrid that cheats on the serial part a bit. Apparently it will never be elegant like the Tesla ether
This car will sell well. People are failing to understand the market.
There are plenty of wealthy folk who like the idea of a Volt, but don't want to be seen in a $35K car. These people will snap up the $75K ELR. It's got the cool features of the Volt, but allows them to drive a car that reflects their financial situation/status.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
This is one of the ugliest cars I've seen in a while. It looks like they took a nice car and pumped it up like a balloon. It looks short and obese and no rear doors makes it impractical for day-to-day use. The interior looks great though but Tesla Model S has a much much nicer exterior! The car I'm looking forward to is the Fisker Atlantic.
My other account has a 3-digit UID.
If you're using your gas to charge your battery, then you'd be going more efficiently by directly using the gas.
Nope.
a) A fixed-rpm engine will be more efficient than a general purpose one.
b) A fixed-rpm engine won't let the driver abuse the accelerator pedal as much - no lead-footed zooming up ramps.
No sig today...
its gud to have ecofriendly car...
Even Boeing is using Japanese cells in their Dreamliner planes.
South America. These are basically the same cells that go inside our laptops, but without the normal cell electronics .
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Yes, which means it's crap. Seriously, American-made cars have been crap for years
Welcome, time-traveler from the 1980's! You'll find that a lot of things have changed here in 2013. We would like to remind you that smoking is prohibited in most public buildings now, and that there is a new invention called the internet that you will need to understand if you wish to stay for any length of time. Please enjoy your stay!
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
There is NO fixed RPM engine that can convert the energy from gasoline to electricity more effectively than just driving a gas engine. The electricity from the Volt must come from from the grid, or in my case, solar panels to be cost effective. There is a conversion loss of ~30% when the electricity is sent to the wheels and then another 30% when you re-gen. The Volt gets ~36 mpg if you feed it gas alone. That's not a bad number but you can do better with other fuel cars, like a Volkswagen Jetta.
I own two Volts. I have two charging stations at home. My driving situation is that I get about ~40 miles per charge. Several times, I have gotten 60 miles out of a charge that was situational. Mechanically, the Volt seems to be very sound. With the exception of the center console electronics, everything is top notch.
An earlier poster compared the new Cadillac to an old Cimarron, My Volt, from 0-50 will smoke 95% of the vehicles out there. Electric motors don't have a torque curve, they have a torque line from 0 RPMs to 15000 RPMs in the Volt's case. I don't know this to be the case, but if they upped the battery bank, the Cadillac could have even faster take off than the Volt.
At work, we have chargers, again driven by renewable energy. My Volt was backed into the spot and right next to is, was a Tesla Model S. The front ends are remarkably similar. The back end of the Volt is nice. I find my Volt visually appealing with the exception of the black plastic body trim. But it is acceptable
The point is that electric cars can work, but you have to be in a position to make use of it.
a) A fixed-rpm engine will be more efficient than a general purpose one.
Care to show some numbers?
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
That video didn't show anything.
Seriously, watch the launch (when the cars begin to move) the Tesla starts before the BMW.
How can you compare a Cadillac ELR to a Tesla, when the Cadillac has an all-electric range of only 35 miles? You can't even compare this expensive Cadillac to a Nissan Leaf. All the Cadillac ELR is, is an luxury Chevy Volt.
Cadillac, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.