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Volvo Developing Nano-Battery Tech Built Into Car Body Panels
cartechboy writes "Electric vehicle batteries have three problems — they're big, heavy, and expensive. But what if you could shift EV batteries away from being big blocks under the car and engineer them into the car itself? Research groups at Imperial College London working with Volvo have spent three years developing a way to do exactly that. The researchers are storing energy in nano structure batteries woven into carbon fiber--which can then be formed into car body panels. These panel-style batteries charge and store energy faster than normal EV batteries, and they are also lighter and more eco-friendly. The research team has built a Volvo S80 prototype featuring the panels where the battery panel material has been used for the trunk lid. With the materials used on the doors, roof and hood, estimated range for a mid-size electric car is around 80 miles."
Great, so now it's not just one battery pack in the back that's a fire risk, the whole exterior of the car could spontaneously combust at any moment. Oh, and good bye independant body shops.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
...is that it provides people with a really strong incentive not to sideswipe you, since all that energy would be dumped into your car when you hit the panel. I am sure the pyrotechnics would be quite pretty.
Only if the density of solar energy available were actually sufficient.
It isn't,
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
How long do they last before having to be replaced?
How much does it cost to replace them?
Bubba whips out his power drill to mount a CB antenna on the fender.
Have gnu, will travel.
The intersection between people who want to drive pickup trucks and people want to who drive electric cars is close to zero.
No sig today...
1. If you're in a crash or just dent a body panel with this crap in it how much is that going to cost?
2. What happens when you need to replace the batteries because they don't hold a charge? You replace all the body panels?
I totally understand the "problems" with batteries in EVs. As the summary states "they're big, heavy, and expensive", but they also need to be serviceable, easily swapped or replaced, and then made smaller, lighter, cheaper over time. The barriers to EVs are gas/petrol stations. There's a lot of them! Sure, some have chargers now, but what EVs need are battery swap stations. Of course, this would also require a standard for battery placement, shape and technology to work, but the battery swapping (like propane tanks a la Blue Rhino) I feel is the best solution for competing with internal combustion based cars and the multitude of fueling stations available. Range issues all but disappear if I can pull over just about anywhere and swap out the battery for a fully charged new one in two minutes or less. Integrating batteries into other parts of the car seems dumb to me. Sure, something that makes electricity to help charge the battery pack would be nice, but batteries in body panels for a vehicle that runs on them? Don't see that as a good idea. Standardization of a battery pack and mass deployment of swap stations would be the big win for EVs. Going to be a while yet. Lots could happen.
Having the batteries centralized like in the Tesla is a GOOD thing. They keep the center of gravity low on the car making it almost impossible to roll (seriously, the NHTSA had to specially design a scenario to get it to roll) and they make it possible to swap batteries for a quick charge which is going to be necessary unless the capacity of batteries can be increased by a factor of 10 with charge speeds doubled or tripled.
This is a step backwards in many ways not to mention the least of which is to necessarily increase the cost of mild accidents to replace the battery integrated pieces.
Fine, I'll join the dumb comments parade.
"The whole car body is batteries."
"Shocking!"
Need to charge your cellphone? Tie the USB ground lead to a manhole cover, tie the other lead to a nail and pound it into the quarterpanel of the nearest Volvo (oops, wrong voltage :-) )
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
Seems to me the #1 problem with EV batteries is the time it takes to charge them. We need to get to the point that it is possible to re-fuel/recharge an EV in 5 minutes or less, like it takes to fill up at a gas station.
How about spending time and money researching something like a exchangeable battery pack, something standard sized which you could pull in to an EV station, drop out your used battery and exchange for a set of fully charged ones?
That would solve so many problems. I know Tesla is working on something like this, but they don't go far enough to make it usable in any car, like gas stations are today.
>>> But what if you could shift EV batteries away from being big blocks under the car and engineer them into the car itself?
You actually want all the weight to be in the middle of the car and low down. If you raised the car's centre of gravity or made it off-centre (by redistributing the weight of the batteries) you will make the car handle a lot worse.
Also batteries can be dangerous as they contain a LOT of energy. Physical damage can easily result in fire. They are best protected by being located in the middle of the car. If you made the body panels batteries so they contain all that energy, one small bump or even door ding could be catastrophic.
Actually it might be fun to see those freaks that dont care about denting other peoples parked cars when they open their doors get burnt alive.
To my understanding, it burns about as well as, and under similar conditions to that of a diamond.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I have a partial answer. No – you are comparing apples to oranges.
The Tesla – and all other electric vehicles – uses chemical batteries. When chemical are bashed about they can burn.
This technology uses ultra-capacitors. So jostling them about won’t cause a chemical reaction. Not sure what will happen – just that it’s not going to be a chemical reaction.
Ricer Randy whips out his dad's power drill to mount a whale tail on the fender.
Also a very likely circumstance.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The intersection between people who want to drive pickup trucks and people want to who drive electric cars is close to zero.
I disagree with that totally. I have an F150 in the driveway, sitting next to a nearly worn out mid-size sedan which makes a lot of sense to me to replace with an EV. I think there are lots of households just like mine which a pickup and an EV would be a great combination, the best of both worlds.
The intersection between people who want to drive pickup trucks and people want to who drive electric cars is close to zero.
This is true - the weight of the battery packs would severely diminish the tow/hauling capacity of the vehicle, and thus would pretty much defeat the purpose of owning a truck to begin with.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
It is if you park near the focus point of one of the parabolic death ray buildings.
most dishwashers and refrigerators run off of 120V AC power in the USA, so the voltage they operate on is definitely dangerous. However, they do not pose a risk of being hit by cars usually, so the "zapping wires flailing everywhere" nightmare is not likely with them. With the high power-density Lithium ion batteries, there is often a risk of fire or explosion when they are damaged in the right way. With enough cars on the road endangering each other by being piloted by dumbasses texting or putting on makeup, the risk skyrockets...
Which is retarded, because of all people, those buying pickup trucks (for actual utility use) should be clamoring over each other for electric versions. If you buy a truck (for reasons other than vanity), you do so to haul things, and if you're hauling things, you want low end torque. Electric motors handily outperform gasoline and diesel engines for low end torque. That's nearly all locomotives have been that way for decades, and modern heavy duty trucks use them rather than turbines.
Since batteries are electricity driven by chemical reactions, I've always wondered about the impact of cold-weather climates on electric cars - both in the short term immediate-power context, and in the longer-term cycle life of the system. I suspect that the reports of range, power output, etc are all based on relatively favorable situations.
Living in northern MN, there are several weeks if not months per year that I walk out and start my vehicle (parked outdoors) and every piece of it has to be -20C, -35C or colder. I have to imagine that body panel-batteries would be even more vulnerable to exterior temps? (Plus, frankly, there's something cheery about being warmed by the residual heat of a constant chain of explosions when it's pitch dark and -40C. How fast does an all-electric car warm up, and how much does this warmth "cost" in terms of range, etc - for a gas/diesel, it's a freebie.)
-Styopa
Finally, a good way to deal with people key-scratching your car.
I suppose they use less nasty stuff than current batteries.
Of course we recycle current batteries pretty well, oh, and metal body panels. I am sure it can't be TOOO hard to recycle nano-battery carbon fiber panels can it? Is it even possible in theory? What happens if you throw these in a dump with water, random metal things, and pressure?
I see the CG is a big point. I love the local EV that is 3 ft wide and looks like it would tip if you lean on it but has a 1000 lb battery pack in bottom and handles great. Too bad it is/was $40k+ for half a car.
batteries store lots of energy that can be released in an accident.
As far as I can tell, these don't actually qualify as batteries, as there is no chemical reaction. They're capacitors. Of course, capacitors shorting out are not the greatest thing either. Arc flashes are not a fun thing to experience.
Additionally, how well do carbon fibres burn? Like a torch, or like a bomb?
Neither, really. Carbon fiber really doesn't burn. They use the stuff as thermal shielding on the leading edges of the Space Shuttle, and on high end ceramic brakes. Far too often do people conflate "carbon fiber" with "carbon fiber reinforced plastic". Carbon fiber is nothing but a fabric, and like any other fabric, it can't hold a shape. Unless you're just using it for rope or netting, you need some form of sheer matrix to give it stability, and thermoset plastics are simply convenient for that purpose. So obviously a plastic isn't going to hold up well to temperature, but metals and ceramics will, and there is no indication what these panels are to be made out of, other than a nebulous "carbon fiber".
They look more like capacitors than batteries. They should be good for millions of cycles.
These guys at Imperial College London have been working on this for a while now. Previous coverage on /. Integrating Capacitors Into Car Frames
you kids have it easy. back in my day we used to have exploding bags of hot gas that fired out of the door panels to protect you. and they STILL spilled your mocha latte everywhere! now you kids with your new fangled battery cars just get a warm splash of lithium.
Good people go to bed earlier.
That's not a bad idea at all. Two questions, though: (1) How does this affect accidents, specifically willingness of emergency crews to pry open a crunched car body to extract you, and (2), how does this affect the cost and/or practicality of replacing the batteries when they inevitably begin to wear out?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Exactly... how's this supposed to be more eco-friendly?
That's as brilliant as storing gasoline in pockets in body panels of the car. One fender bender could cause huge problems.
morons
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
No, hang on. Electric vehicle batteries are typically very high current but *low* voltage. Not enough voltage, in fact, to overcome the natural resistance of the human body. With a good conductive path, the high current can cause bad things to happen (like extreme heat, fire, smoke) but you are in no danger of getting shocked to death.
This is one of the things TV/movies often get wrong and it's crept into our tribal knowledge -- that the type of batteries you find in cars can shock you to death. It's not true, for very basic, ohm's law type reasons.
It *is* true that rescue workers approach hybrids cautiously. This is partly because of the fire danger (*not* electrocution danger) but also because the car's motive force could still be "live", even though the engine is not running. It's hard for rescue workers to tell if a hybrid is truly "off" as they attempt to rescue the passengers.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I understand this "prototype" is capable of 80 miles but lets say it was able to do 400 miles, I would still be limited to 400 miles. What Tesla is trying to do is have gas stations keep charged batteries in storage for quick swaps. The Telsa batterie is a quick disconnect/reconnect so that you can extend the range beyond its current limited range. I think in the near future it is the best option for EVs.
Wouldn't this work well with some kind of solar panel technology that charges the panels. You would never have to plug it in.
Only if you drive it no more than an hour a month.
A horsepower is almost exactly 3/4 kilowatt. A square yard gets about a kilowatt of raw sunshine at high noon. Factor in the efficiency of the solar panel, battery storage, and motor control and you're lucky to get a fifth of that. Call it a quarter-horse for each square yard of cross-secton as seen by the sun, if you're parked in the open on a clear day. A good, sunny, location might get five "solar hours" - equivalent of five hours of noontime sun - per day. So call it a tad over a horsepower hour per day.
Crusing at highway speed takes maybe 18 horsepower. (Acceleration much more, but only for a short time - but then you lose much of it with breaking - even regenerative breaking that scavenges some of it. So stop-and-go driving is substantially lower mileage than highway.)
Remember the intro to "The Jetsons", where George hits the button on his flying commuter car and it folds up into a briefcase? You need a car that does the opposite: Spread out over a half-acre when you park it. But your company probably won't want you to use that many parking spaces...
So you plug in your electric car, move to the planet Mercury, or wait for Mr Fusion to get cheap.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Now when my rechargeable batteries wear out, I can replace all of the body panels! Sweet!
This strikes me as having potential to augment the traditional battery in a car. I don't think it will replace it, nor should it. Combine this with a moderate sized battery and you extend the range of the car dramatically. Better, you can have two different systems optimized for different uses, one a slow charging energy dense battery and the other a quick charging efficient capacitor mopping up regenerative breaking energy and delivering it in a quick burst. Add in a few other systems such as integrating solar power to help run the increasing number to gadgets in cars and the electric car starts to really shine.
Runs after financial period has closed, 8 times a year. Wait until ETL/Zena process is done.
My point is that it will react very differently than the example and it may not be explosive. IIRC 1 gallon of gasoline has the same amount of energy as 11 sticks of dynamite however it is really hard to make gasoline explode.
So my question is how you would make this type of battery to explosively discharge its energy. Not chemical. Structural damage would cause some of the capacitors to discharge but that would not necessary lead to a cascade effect.
I remember hearing about a submarine design where the batteries were deliberately distributed in the outer part of the vessel, underneath the skin. While that increased the risk of damage to the batteries themselves, the heavy batteries also served as a layer of armor, giving additional protection for the ship's interior. So depending on the design decisions made, it might actually increase safety in some situations.
Until you park your car, come back to find someone opened their door into yours, cracked part of your battery and now you don't have enough capacity to get home.
(or it caught fire, like lithium batteries like doing when punctured)
The people who need a truck for it's utility have much greater range needs than a pure EV truck could provide with a battery twice the size of the Model S battery. Most trucks sold are of the cheap 1/2 ton variety which is at a price point way too low for a hybrid or EV. Even Ford's awesome Ecoboost is a hard sale due to the increased cost of a turbo v6 engine over a lesser v8. The crowd that a hybrid could be built for is very small, those with turbo diesels who need even more low end grunt and better cruising mileage. In the 3/4 and 1-ton range this is easily done with heavy duty torque converters and handheld tuners. Turbo diesels leave the factory with about 25-40% of the power and 10-25% of the mileage left out of the computer tune, so clearly that crowd isn't demanding all that they are currently paying for.
Electric cars went about 50 to 100 miles almost 100 years ago.
They do the same today.
Hopefully by about 2100, they should go 200 miles.
The "low-end" 60 kW-h version of the Model S gets 208 miles by the more conservative EPA estimate. The more expensive 85 kW-h gets 310 miles by European standards or 265 miles by EPA ones.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I never said anything about a battery. I said electric. There's no reason you can't toss a decent generator in there.
Turbodiesels get that extra 25-40% power by overfueling. It's basically like lighting an afterburner. You continue to dump fuel into the cylinder well past the power stroke. It keeps the exhaust hot for the turbine, adding extra boost. It also makes your economy and emissions go to shit. They don't come from the factory that way because there's no way the engine would be able to meet EPA regulations.
they just have no idea.
only vegetarians know the excitement and accomplishment of hunting the wily pumpkin.
Looks like ANSI and others are working on it.
or build your carport roof from Fresnel lenses.