Germany: We Think NSA May Have Tapped Chancellor Merkel's Cell Phone

The sad thing is... by jdbuz · 2013-10-23 09:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

that Obama probably doesn't know either way.

Re:The sad thing is... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 09:57 · Score: 5, Funny

Actually, just like how bin Laden supposedly communicates through his blinking in his videos, Obama and Clapper probably set up something similar for their covert communication based on how Clapper rubs his face when he's lying.
Re:The sad thing is... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2013-10-23 10:13 · Score: 2, Funny

Obama had one reply to Merkel, like Superman to Lois Lane:
"They're pink..."

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Re:The sad thing is... by FudRucker · 2013-10-23 10:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

obama is a puppet, he is owned by his handlers (military/industrial complex & wallstreet & federal reserve) and he does exactly what they want him to do

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Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Re:The sad thing is... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 10:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

"The president assured the chancellor that the United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of the chancellor"
You see, we're only storing a copy of the communications [I]in case[/I] we need to go back and listen to them at some future date. Germany is acting like we have someone actively listening to her phone calls. C'mon, we're the USA; we don't listen to anyone! I don't understand why the Chancellor is so upset.
Re:The sad thing is... by amicusNYCL · 2013-10-23 10:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

obama is a puppet, he is owned by his handlers (military/industrial complex & wallstreet & federal reserve) and he does exactly what they want him to do
This is probably what he has the most in common with previous presidents. I'm sure that when he got into office after promising to repeal or reform the patriot act, the NSA and other people sat him down and told him the way it is, and that was that.

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"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Re:The sad thing is... by Hatta · 2013-10-23 11:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

He never would have gotten into office without playing ball with the elites.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:The sad thing is... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 12:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

Don't be silly. Any politician strong enough to have a shot at the presidency knows how the game they played their whole life works. They help a select few companies, the companies throw them some crumbs. The candidate is happy because he gets what he wants, the companies are happy because the status quo is left unchanged, and the public is happy because they know THIS TIME things will be different.
Re:The sad thing is... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 12:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

The sad thing is Obama doesn't know sh*t from shine-ola. He's shat and fallen back into it, wallowing in it like a mudwog (see Bode').
He seems to like it, had developed gills for it and stays under longer and longer. Good Job Democrats! You reached up your nose and picked a winner! Twice!
Our lives look soooo much brighter now. What're you Repubtards giggling about? Like you ever did any better in your lifetime! Morons, I'm surrounded by self destructive MORONS!
Re:The sad thing is... by phantomfive · 2013-10-23 12:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

Notice that all those things he "doesn't know" about are bad things......

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:The sad thing is... by phantomfive · 2013-10-23 12:29 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm sure that when he got into office after promising to repeal or reform the patriot act, the NSA and other people sat him down and told him the way it is, and that was that.
He voted in favor of wiretapping shortly before getting elected. If you thought he was going to repeal it, you were naive. He indicated clearly what he was going to do, and you should have known beforehand what you were getting.

I'm not saying McCain would have been better but you shouldn't fool yourself.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 13:11 · Score: 5, Insightful

obama is a puppet, he is owned by his handlers (military/industrial complex & wallstreet & federal reserve) and he does exactly what they want him to do
So, you are thinking that they wanted:
- The sequester to cut $50 billion per year out of the defense budget? (With the MIC already down to 4-5% of GDP from 9.3% in 1962?)
- Massive new financial regulations on loans, consumer credit, and much increased Federal government oversight?
- Massive increases to Federal regulations across most sectors of the economy which raise the cost of business and threaten uncertainty?
- The Obamacare debacle?
You think they seek their own weakening or destruction? I think you haven't thought that through all the way.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 14:32 · Score: 1

The sad thing is... that Obama probably doesn't know either way.
So you're thinking that the Obama administration isn't even "transparent" to Obama? ...... I'm not buying that.
Shades of, "If Only the Tsar Knew! "

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by erikkemperman · 2013-10-23 18:36 · Score: 2

What massive regulation do you mean? I am just an outside observer but my impression was that compared to most places the US barely restricted the financial sector at all since the 2008 debacle. These people were gambling with other people's money, taking outrageous risks, crafting "products" which nobody really understood -- taking the profits such as they were and leaving the losses for society. Yet these practices continue much the same. No one was prosecuted and bonuses for execs have continued to be enormous and apparently unrelated to performance.

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Re:The sad thing is... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 19:16 · Score: 1

"The president assured the chancellor that the United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of the chancellor"
note the use of "is not monitoring" as opposed to "has not been monitoring"
Re:The sad thing is... by FriendlyLurker · 2013-10-23 20:31 · Score: 2, Interesting

(With the MIC already down to 4-5% of GDP from 9.3% in 1962?)
Defense spending has in no way been trending down, as your dishonestly trying to imply by comparing to GDP (yet again - like you have an agenda?)). I would draw your eye to the incredible graphic here from the well regarded Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. Just shy of an eye popping 700billion/year military spending by the US. Certainly off its historic highs during the good times high rolling 2008, but even the military could not live it up like it is pre-2008. Far more credible than your defense spending as % total budget outlays 1945–2013, which is like saying, "hey the overall budget is growing faster than our budget increases, so... [switch off cognitive functions], See!! The long term trend in defense spending is down!!". Muddled half-truths and nonsense indeed.
It is telling that you repeatedly reference the heritage foundation "an American conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C." whose shining moment was its "leading role in the conservative movement during the presidency of Ronald Reagan, whose policies drew significantly from Heritage's policy study".
Re:The sad thing is... by FriendlyLurker · 2013-10-23 20:46 · Score: 1

- The sequester to cut $50 billion per year out of the defense budget? (With the MIC already down to 4-5% of GDP from 9.3% in 1962?)
"Linking military spending to the GDP is an argument frequently made by supporters of higher military budgets. Comparing military spending (or any other spending for that matter) to the GDP tells you how large a burden such spending puts on the US economy, but it tells you nothing about the burden a $440 billion military budget puts on U.S. taxpayers. Our economy may be able to bear higher military spending, but the question today is whether current military spending levels are necessary and whether these funds are going towards the proper priorities. Further, such comparisons are only made when the economy is healthy. It is unlikely that those arguing that military spending should be a certain portion of GDP would continue to make this case if the economy suddenly weakened, thus requiring dramatic cuts in the military."

— Chris Hellman, The Runaway Military Budget: An Analysis (PDF), Friends Committee on National Legislation, March 2006, no. 705, p. 3
Re:The sad thing is... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 21:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

There's a very large difference between legally wiretapping with a warrant and illegally wiretapping civilians and foreign governments.
Re:The sad thing is... by ImOuttaHere · 2013-10-23 21:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

Oh, Obama knows.
What maybe Americans don't yet realize is why this such a huge deal here in Europe, and why, in particular, Germany was "OK" with the whole NSA spying scandal, at first.
It turns out that a rather large trade deal between Europe and US was in process when the NSA spying scandal broke. The Germans had the trade pact right where they wanted it. The French did not. You perhaps noted the German hand waving that they were outraged by the NSA spying, but really weren't going to do anything to torpedo the trade deal. The French, OTOH, were prepared to back completely out.
Now it seems that the Germans found something they clearly do not like.
Think "leverage." Each country is looking for more favorable terms with the Americans.

that Obama probably doesn't know either way.
Re:The sad thing is... by L4t3r4lu5 · 2013-10-23 21:15 · Score: 2

"Two words, Mr President: Plausible Deniability"

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Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 21:16 · Score: 1

Far more credible than your defense spending as % total budget outlays 1945–2013, which is like saying, "hey the overall budget is growing faster than our budget increases, so... [switch off cognitive functions], See!! The long term trend in defense spending is down!!". Muddled half-truths and nonsense indeed.
The figures I linked to were defense spending as a percentage of GDP, not total budget outlays. That is a measure of the total resources devoted to defense out of total economic activity. That isn't an obscure measure. It is a simple fact that since WW2 the overall trend of defense spending has been downwards, although there have been valleys and troughs along the trend line. At the end of WW2, the US devoted approximately 38% of GDP to defense spending. In 1962 it was down to 9.3%. Over the last several years it has generally been around 4-5% of GDP. I'm not sure how you got that wrong. So, even though the dollars spent have been rising, and both inflation and value of the currency play into that, the amount of economic activity devoted to defense by the US has decreased significantly over the last 70 years.
The current charts reflect that.
As to Heritage, the numbers aren't really going to change if you go to a different source - as long as its accurate.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 21:35 · Score: 1

Linking military spending to GDP is a conventional way of measuring and managing the commitment of resources, including within Europe. Unfortunately the US has to underwrite European nations that are not living up to their agreements.
Shrinking Europe Military Spending Stirs Concern - April 22, 2013

Alarmed by years of cuts to military spending, the NATO secretary general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, issued a dire public warning to European nations, noting that together they had slashed $45 billion, or the equivalent of Germany’s entire military budget, endangering the alliance’s viability, its mission and its relationship with the United States. ...
The United States finances nearly three-quarters of NATO’s military spending, up from 63 percent in 2001. And yet among the alliance’s 28 nations, experts note, only the United States, Britain and Greece are meeting NATO’s own spending guidelines of 2 percent of gross domestic product. Even Britain and France — the two leading European nations willing to project military might — are slipping further. France says that by 2014 it may cut deeper still — to just 1.3 percent of G.D.P., down from 1.9 percent this year. By comparison, the United States spent 4.8 percent of its G.D.P. on the military in 2011.
In 2012, for the first time, military spending among Asian nations, in particular China, exceeded that of the Europeans.
“We are moving toward a Europe that is a combination of the unable and the unwilling,” said Camille Grand, a French military expert who directs the Foundation for Strategic Research. “European countries are continuing to be free riders, instead of working seriously to see how to act together.”

If the concern is the total burden on taxpayers, as your quote seems to imply, then it would be wise to look at the actual spending trends. Entitlement spending for social welfare programs far exceeds defense spending and therefore constitutes the major portion of the tax burden. The new healthcare program is going to add to that spending. Given the rapid growth of federal spending compared to median income it is little wonder that the spending per household in adjusted dollars is rapidly increasing. This isn't sustainable, especially in light of the rapidly aging generational bulge that is starting to retire now - the "baby boomers."

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by FriendlyLurker · 2013-10-23 22:06 · Score: 2

Wow, just wow. Here you are standing before us trying to argue that military spending, worldwide, should be increased to levels at least as high as they were at the hight of the cold war where there actually was a credible enemy capable of threatening our national security Vs today where terrorism does not even manage to be more threatening than your kitchen stool. This completely ignoring the fact that military spending is already a massive drain on the worlds resources and that Military spending, with few exceptions, is pretty much the definition of unproductivewe are quite literally paying people to blast holes in the ground.
Re:The sad thing is... by FriendlyLurker · 2013-10-23 22:07 · Score: 1

Woosh - Never said or implied that the GDP percentage points you were quoting are wrong. Try again.
Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 22:39 · Score: 1

You've apparently sprung a leak, you should attend to that.

Defense spending has in no way been trending down, as your dishonestly trying to imply by comparing to GDP

You may recall your previous statement.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 22:47 · Score: 2

Try again. NATO's agreement is for NATO members, not the entire world. And you may have noted that Asian countries are outspending Europe. Terrorism isn't the only reason for defense. You may recall that European countries tried to intervene in Libya, and had significant difficulties doing so. Some of that problem was lost capabilities due to not meeting their defense commitments.
If you want to know what expensive is, just let Iran cut off Europe's oil supplies, as they have previously threatened to do, and see what happens if Europe lacks the capacity to restore the them. How long do you think industry, manufacturing, and the chemical industries will be unaffected? It would have a severe impact on Europe.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by SonnyDog09 · 2013-10-23 23:11 · Score: 1

He is a product of the Chicago Machine, and people are surprised that he behaves like one.

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Your "fair share" is NOT in my wallet.
Re:The sad thing is... by FriendlyLurker · 2013-10-23 23:11 · Score: 1

$$$ up waay up. % of overall GDP down. Its not that hard to understand please try to keep up...
Re:The sad thing is... by dunkelfalke · 2013-10-23 23:47 · Score: 1

What happened in Lybia was a good thing. This way the EU governments will think twice before they try another pointless military adventure. Participating in the Yugoslav gang warfare was bad enough, Iraq and Afghanistan even worse.
Besides, NATO should have been disbanded two decades ago.

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:The sad thing is... by TrekkieGod · 2013-10-24 02:22 · Score: 1

I'm sure that when he got into office after promising to repeal or reform the patriot act, the NSA and other people sat him down and told him the way it is, and that was that.
Never attribute to a conspiracy that which can adequately be explained by a lying politician.
During Obama's campaign, I was happy to see him campaigning against the violations of our civil rights that the patriot act represented. Then he voted to give retroactive telecom immunity to the warrantless wiretapping debacle. I then realized he was just saying what he needed to say to get the anti-Bush votes, but if he won, it would be more of the same.
Also note his statement regarding supporting the bill: "It says that Obama will try to get the immunity provision removed, but failing that will vote for the overhauled wiretapping bill anyway." It's exactly like how he signed the NDAA, which allows for the military to indefinitely detain American citizens in the United States without charging them with a crime. He signed it "with reservations", but signed it anyway. He seems to like to enable unacceptable government policy while simultaneously disagreeing with it. He's pretty much just getting what he wants without completely losing the liberal base by claiming he doesn't really want it.
It's not really a democrat vs. republican issue. It's a politician issue. Unless the public starts paying attention to this crap and stops voting in people whose rhetoric does not match their voting record, and starts voting out people who have a record of voting for legislation which violates our civil rights, there's no solving it. People just vote for red vs blue, and it's going to eventually deteriorate to how the Drazi from Babylon 5 behave regarding green vs. purple. It's a system that rewards politicians for saying which color they associate themselves with, but what they actually do doesn't matter.

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Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
Re:The sad thing is... by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 02:23 · Score: 1

obama is a puppet, he is owned by his handlers (military/industrial complex & wallstreet & federal reserve) and he does exactly what they want him to do
So, you are thinking that they wanted:
- The sequester to cut $50 billion per year out of the defense budget? (With the MIC already down to 4-5% of GDP from 9.3% in 1962?)
GDP in 1962 was $3.1 trillion, while it is $13.75 trillion today. So defense spending has gone from $288.3 billion to $618.75 billion. You think the MIC would be unhappy with that? It may be down in recent years; don't think so short term. The fear of terrorism isn't going away, and thus neither is the defense and intelligence money.

- Massive new financial regulations on loans, consumer credit, and much increased Federal government oversight?
The financial industry fought against the financial reforms and were successful in weakening them before passage. Dodd-Frank was better than nothing, but it didn't do as much as it needed to to really stave off future financial catastrophe. Too big to fail is still too big.

- Massive increases to Federal regulations across most sectors of the economy which raise the cost of business and threaten uncertainty?
Massive? Such as?

- The Obamacare debacle?
You think they seek their own weakening or destruction? I think you haven't thought that through all the way.
They're the Elite, not deities. A bad website roll out is evidence against Elite control of government?
As far as seeking one's own destruction, think about this: When asset prices go down it is a buying opportunity for those with the means. So when the stock market or housing market crashes and sends asset prices down, you could say that is bad for the rich because they lose value in their investments. Or you could say it is good because they have so much money, it doesn't matter and they are able to pick up equities and real estate at bargain prices. They know the price will eventually recover, so they come out better in the end. Likewise, a bad economy can help the wealthy because labor becomes really cheap. You think a billionaire cares about a "bad economy"? His lifestyle doesn't change, so what does he care? Besides, 95% of the gains from the most recent recovery went to the top 1%. So it seems their interests are being served just fine.

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"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Re:The sad thing is... by 228e2 · 2013-10-24 02:28 · Score: 1

I think what the OP was alluding to was that when you become a president and get a clearance and all that, you learn the real truths of how this country works and you have 2 choices, deal with it or deal with it.

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Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
Re:The sad thing is... by Hatta · 2013-10-24 02:30 · Score: 1

Thanks for noticing. The last line was bitching about /.'s broken javascript, and someone told me to check again, and it has actually improved a lot.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Re:The sad thing is... by cyberchondriac · 2013-10-24 02:58 · Score: 2

Always. Some people just can't face reality and will defend him no matter what. The number of scandals and screw-ups in this administration is astounding. A lot of this shut-eye attitude comes form the mind-numblingly simplistic, childish notion that democrat politicians are philanthropic good guys with huge hearts who only want what's best for everyone and republican politicians are greedy selfish warmongers bent on power and fueled by bigotry - a cut and dried black& white world.
I'm wondering, Europeans were so in love with Obama in 2008, what do they think now? They got the man they wanted in the White House.

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Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-24 05:27 · Score: 1

In 1947 a loaf of bread in the UK cost 1.9 pence, and 12 cents in the US.
I understand those prices are no longer available.
Post WW2 defense spending in constant 2005 dollars didn't rise above 1968 levels, when the US had a large force fighting to preserve South Vietnamese independence, until 2008 when it had major forces fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and surged additional forces to each country in turn. The current trend in defense spending is for falling budgets with the FY 2014 budget essentially at 1968 levels ($518B vs $519B) and is planned to fall sharply in FY 2015 and going forward. The overall long term trend of decreasing resources spent on defense in terms of GDP doesn't really change, and in constant 2005 dollars it is planned to decrease substantially from present spending. As another indicator, defense spending in 1945 was 89.5% of Federal spending, in 2014 it is 16.6%. If US Federal spending is a burden, it clearly isn't defense that is the real weight.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by im_thatoneguy · 2013-10-24 06:15 · Score: 1

This whole thing is feigned outrage. France and Germany are doing everything in their power to spy on Obama. The US is just better at it.
We have agreements with some countries on spying where we won't spy on them if they don't spy on us. When a proposal came up for the French and the US to have such an agreement both sides' intelligence agencies didn't want it.
Re:The sad thing is... by im_thatoneguy · 2013-10-24 06:22 · Score: 1

- Massive increases to Federal regulations across most sectors of the economy which raise the cost of business and threaten uncertainty?
First of all there have not been massive increases in Federal Regulation. The extremely minor changes that have been made only reinforce the parent's perspective that he's beholden to corporate interests.
Secondly I love the conservative cry that Obama is creating uncertainty... when they spend half a decade trying to overturn legislation. The word "uncertainty" means they don't know what it's going to be like next year. How could threatening to overturn legislation every other month create more uncertainty than just letting the law stand. If anyone is creating uncertainty it's the threat of reversing existing policy every other day.
Lastly, of course Obama and Bush are in the pocket for corporations. The system is such that corporations whether we like them or not are critical to our economy. They've made themselves essential to our country. Even if a politician did want to remove their influence they would cause huge damage to our economy in the process. IT's a lose lose.
Re:The sad thing is... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-24 12:18 · Score: 1

In FY 1968 defense spending of $518 billion in 2005 dollars accounted for 9.4% of a GDP of $3,993 billion, and 46% of the Federal budget.
In FY 2014 defense spending of $519 billion in 2005 dollars accounts for 3.7% of a GDP of $14,113 billion, 16.6% of the Federal budget.
As of FY 2014 defense spending has already started to fall, and will be falling sharping over the next several years.
Sorry, but those are the facts (subject to change in case of war or natural disaster).

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:The sad thing is... by david_thornley · 2013-10-25 03:31 · Score: 1

You can't judge a politician by picking out specific bits and pieces of bills that he voted for/against or signed/vetoed. The NDAA was not just about unconstitutionally detaining US citizens; it was the defense appropriations bill. You can argue that that provision shouldn't have been in an appropriations book, and I'd agree, but that's how the legislative system works. Similarly, the immunity provision was just part of the larger bill Obama voted for.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

Shocking by OglinTatas · 2013-10-23 09:50 · Score: 4, Funny

I am shocked. Shocked! That a country--any country--would spy on a foreign head of state.
What a world we live in

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More music, fewer hits

Re:Shocking by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 09:57 · Score: 5, Informative

I am shocked. Shocked! That a country--any country--would spy on a foreign head of state.
What a world we live in
As long as you are "shocked, shocked," in this manner, you are correct.
NSA, France and spy wars

Naturally, the French would be outraged. What government would be happy to learn that a close ally was secretly monitoring its people? Then again, it was revealed in 2010 that France conducts its own espionage activities here on U.S. soil. What's more, French officials have been aware of the NSA program in France for months. Oh, and also, France's intelligence agencies have established an electronic surveillance system of their own that monitors their citizens' phone conversations, emails, texts and even their Twitter posts.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Shocking by Murvel · 2013-10-23 09:59 · Score: 5, Interesting

Yeah, that sarcasm came trough! But this is so unbelievably clumsy, and at a time where the situation is already quite tense. They took a gamble to begin with, setting up wires all over the European parliament but targeting the head of state of one of the US closest allies. Mind boggling, but then that is probably only a part of the picture. A very nonsensical one at that.
Re:Shocking by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-23 10:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

Actually it is considered unacceptable for allies to spy on each other's heads of state. Countries are not supposed to treat their friends this way.
On the subject of the French government's surprise, it isn't because French citizens are being spied on like the summary says. It is that there is mass surveillance of millions of French citizens by another friendly member of NATO.

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Re:Shocking by Desler · 2013-10-23 10:20 · Score: 5, Insightful

So you wouldn't mind one of your friends tapping your phones?
Re:Shocking by H0p313ss · 2013-10-23 10:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

I am shocked. Shocked! That a country--any country--would spy on a foreign head of state.
What a world we live in
Exactly, this whole thing has been standard practice for decades.
But now that the man on the street knows your elected officials can play it for political points without being the bad guy.

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XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Re:Shocking by gweihir · 2013-10-23 10:25 · Score: 2

Well, apparently Merkel had the same reaction. Which implies a huge deal of naivety, but now, fortunately, she seems to be pretty pissed. Maybe Germany will find something wrong with the NSA spying on its citizens after all...

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Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Shocking by gweihir · 2013-10-23 10:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

I think the NSA has has/had completely lost sight of the most important thing in politics: Don't piss off your friends. You are going to need them. Instead they hacked, sabotaged security and listened in wherever they found it possible. This also means there was no oversight of any kind that was in the least bit effective.
Quite frankly, the NSA is now basically a serious problem, and not part of any solution anymore. And that the the US administration proved this incompetent at controlling the NSA or may even have been cheering it on (as Rice reportedly did) has lost the US a tremendous amount of goodwill. Those that claimed the US administration is an amoral monster that does not understand the concept of "friend" seemed like crackpots before. Now it looks more and more that they might have had a point. Not good at all. The modern world needs team-players. Even a player as big as the US will eventually be left behind if they cannot manage that.

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Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Shocking by echnaton192 · 2013-10-23 10:59 · Score: 5, Interesting

The point you are all missing is that our intelligence service actually does not do that on allies. They have turned a blind eye to US activities in Germany and profited from the results, but try to understand that such spying activity you implicitly accuse German intelligence services is absolutely unthinkable.
That is not naivity from a German citizen, it is a complete misunderstanding about how my country ticks. We have a disgusting Government, just as you do. We have too uncontrolled intelligence agencies. We have some poverty.
But it is not comparable to your country. Our governments tried to be accepted back into the international community by behaving... better... than ever before since WW II. Another war is one of the greatest fears in my country. Kosovo was one thing, because it reminded people of our past. But even for Afghanistan, the chancellor had to threat the bundestag to resign if they did not vote for "unrestricted solidarity" with america. Not because the majority forgot what America has done for us, but because the fear of war has been implemented in the german conscious.
This is a really narrow description and there may be some Germans here describing other or contrary views, and they are valid. But this is not my mothers tongue, so I'll have to simplify a lot.
My point is: You really misunderstood the Germans if you accuse us of spying on our best allies. One does not do that as a good ally, so it would have been conpletely out of the question. No BND buerocrat or MAD soldier would dare to do that, because there would be some serious consequences like losing the job or at least let their career come to a full stop.
I know this sounds crazy to you, but even though I am a strong opponent to every party currently in the Bundestag, you should really try to understand the world better. The outrage is funded, but of course I disagree with the government about the real scandal.
The real scandal fo my government lies in the complete ignorance of "Mutti" when the information about mass surveillance on us all leaked (which is forbidden for our agencies, so they let yours do the job but did not publicly aknowledged the scale ogüf the programs, maybe even actuelly underestimated them). Mutti is outraged because she was spied upon. She did not even raise a finger against the mass surveillance on every German citizen.
My government is bad. But to campare their doings to the atrocities your governemnt did in recent years is unfounded. You still have the nobel prize in the western world for behaving like complete assholes. No, not every country is doing those things. Most of our intelligence agencies are boring beyond belief. And stupid. And blind on the right eye so they let the nazis kill "non-aryans" again, which is a scandal even if the numbers of our nazis today are comparable to other countries.
But mass-surveillance? On a smaller scale and I am talking about per cent, not absolute numbers. And spying on an american embassy or wiretaping members of the american government? You got to be kidding me. You really have no clue. UNTHINKABLE.
Again: This is no full scale political analysis of our politics, it is a very simple description on what is happening here.
And if I were you I would ask myself if it is in the best interest of my country to piss off every ally in the world and at the same time forcing us to boycott american service providers. Do you think I am the only one that is doing the shift away from every cloud remotely american and from any closed source product stemming from american companies? The suisse and SOME German providers are trustworthy. All american dataproducts must be considered to be compromised.
Defend the NSA activities all day long. You are entitled to. But honestly: Do you see me using Windows outside of a very strictly secured vm on a linux machine a year from now? Gaming kept me on windows, but the security risks exposed are too big. I might trust steam on a linux machine enough to let it run while I am playin
Re:Shocking by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 11:10 · Score: 1

So you wouldn't mind one of your friends tapping your phones?
The relationship between nation states - even 'allies' - is not the same as that between friends, so your comparison is irrelevant. To paraphrase Palmerston: nations have permanent interests, not permanent friends.
Re:Shocking by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 11:20 · Score: 1

So you wouldn't mind one of your friends tapping your phones?
I hear that is known to happen inside families: husband-wife, parents-children, sibling-sibling.
The "family of nations" is a dysfunctional family.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Shocking by mwehle · 2013-10-23 11:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yours is a more lengthy and more thoughtful response than usually found on Slashdot. Unfortunately many American Slashdot readers, as Americans everywhere, have very little context from which to view our government's activities, hence the automatic and unfounded reaction that "everybody does it." There's a hubris here that is hard to communicate - an assumption of the US being first among bullies. I flew back to the US from Berlin in August and before getting through customs was already being harangued by officials who treated passengers as if we were prisoners, or cattle, a contrast to the politeness I'd been treated with in Germany. My impression is that many Americans don't see the NSA and other "public servants" as civil servants at all, but rather as hired guns of a sort, who for the best reasons "step outside the law" like innumerable rogue television cops.

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Wir sind geboren, um frei zu sein - Rio Reiser
Re:Shocking by echnaton192 · 2013-10-23 11:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is known to me. When I found out that the password for posteo.de was stored on a french server by an app to give me push notifications for posteo on iOS, I deleted the app and replaced my 32 character password which encrypts CardDAV and CalDAV immediately.
That was a pain in the ass and costed me hours. All britain and french providers must be considered compromised, their intelligence agencies are completely out of control. Both spy on us big time (wiretaping merkel herself might be a bit to stark, but yes, they spy) but have you heard of any service provider in those countries that would lure foreigners into using them? I didn't.
Google, iOS (in the beginning, while the other smart phones were laughable at best), iCloud and gmail are cool, that made us use them in the first place. We actually bought the equipment to spy on us ourselves and felt cool because we owned them. Even George Orwell did not see that coming...
Re:Shocking by bitt3n · 2013-10-23 12:53 · Score: 1, Funny

I wouldn't mind tapping one of my friends...

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how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
Re:Shocking by echnaton192 · 2013-10-23 13:29 · Score: 5, Informative

Sigh. Have you red the articles? And understood them? The numbers appeared on some phone bills, not everyones. And as I use posteo, have you understood wjühat the guy from posteo was saying? There is no way a court would allow all mailboxes being searched or to order them to hand over ALL mailbocüxes to get some of them.
Posteo allows for complete anonymous use of their service, paying could be done with a reference number in an envelope. The laws allows to throw away any data if not needed for the billing, so they do that. They can not identify you if you chose the tin foil hat payment method at all.
Posteo offers to encrypt the CalDAV and CardDAV-accounts not only with their system-wide key, but with the users password, so they can not get the data stored there themselves. 32-character, strong password, so good luck with the decryption. And all this opportunity costs for learning that I have nothing much to hide. Making it as hard as I could to get the useless information should be a fun sport for every geek worldwide. Oh, did I mention they replace my IP in emails with theirs and are working an passwordencryption of the IMAP-account as well?
Have you red the ars technica article and understood what the podteo guy was saying? About our CURRENT laws and our CURRENT situation?
Not so much, did you?
We have overboarding surveillance, but your non existing privacy continues to be a wet dream for our executive powers and some polticians. The danger of my data being compromised is smaller by high factors when using posteo or suisse providers compared to the complete transparent and willingly weakened products of american companies. Good citizens like the lavabit-guy or Zimmerman excluded.
There is surveillance is not equal to "we try to get every single bit of everyone eveytime". Data retention may come to my country as well and I fought against it. But what the Constitutional Court left over from the cases in which the data could be used is absolutely incomparable to the complete Orwellian Scheme of your country. And Data retention is in the debate again thanks to Mr. Snowden. The Data Retention and access to the Data was attempted to be nearly unrestricted. But the constitutional court did not let it stand. I still hate everyone that promotes data retention after two dictatures in the last 100 years. But the checks and balances actually worked as far as the original law is null and void.
Inform yourself. I have no problems with tapped mailboxes if there is some evidence for extremely serious crimes, like the posteo guy was suggesting. Data retention on the other hand is bad. But as stated by our constitutional court, it can not be as bad as it is in your country.
So stop spreading FUD, it is bad enough here as it is already. Thank you very much.
Re:Shocking by ToasterMonkey · 2013-10-23 13:31 · Score: 1

So you wouldn't mind one of your friends tapping your phones?
If your spouse does it, you what, fire them?
Welcome to the complex world of diplomacy.
Re:Shocking by Electricity+Likes+Me · 2013-10-23 14:51 · Score: 1, Interesting

Actually it is considered unacceptable for allies to spy on each other's heads of state. Countries are not supposed to treat their friends this way.
On the subject of the French government's surprise, it isn't because French citizens are being spied on like the summary says. It is that there is mass surveillance of millions of French citizens by another friendly member of NATO.
Of course it's considered "unacceptable". Because the sheep (in this case, tech nerds) just love to lap up the righteous indignation of having their privacy violated, while simultaneously thinking wikileaks is the greatest thing ever (you know, the organization headed by the guy which decided there wasn't too much danger disclosing the names of allied informants in warzones in Afgahnistan and Iraq).
Meanwhile, anyone who can do it is doing it and those who can't are trying to.
Re:Shocking by TheGratefulNet · 2013-10-23 15:24 · Score: 2

I hope the NSA continues to piss off the wrong people.
us little guys have no say in things anymore, but maybe if they ruffle enough big feathers, things will change.
(nah, they won't change. who am I kidding?)

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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Shocking by TheGratefulNet · 2013-10-23 15:26 · Score: 1

wow, just wow. you sure are blind.
'we' are happy about wikileaks since the balance of power was HIGHLY unbalanced. those who had privacy (at the top) were abusing it and causing real world-wide harm. shining sunlight on those who are definitely doing bad things is a Good Thing(tm).
you can't see that? or you are just trolling? I can't quite tell.

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Shocking by LavouraArcaica · 2013-10-23 15:31 · Score: 2

Sorry, but when exactly NSA was part of the solution?
Re:Shocking by LavouraArcaica · 2013-10-23 15:33 · Score: 1

You know, wikileaks is doing the job that a transparent government should do in the first place.
And sorry, but is completely bullshit to compare mass-spying with disclosure of secret acts of the government.
Re:Shocking by ahabswhale · 2013-10-23 15:44 · Score: 1

Team players? lol...you have an extremely naive view of how the world actually works. Everyone spies on everyone, regardless of what team they are on. The only difference here is that the NSA got caught courtesy of a traitor named Ed Snowden. In fact, I'm guessing he will go down in history as the greatest traitor this nation has ever seen.

--
Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
Re:Shocking by maxwell+demon · 2013-10-23 17:48 · Score: 1

>I think the NSA has has/had completely lost sight of the most important thing in politics: Don't piss off your friends.
You are actually naïve enough to believe that Germany has no intelligence gathering in the United States or even in other EU member states? What a laugh.
There are no friends in international politics, my dear child.
I strongly doubt Germany is tapping Obama's phone.
Note that the German government was downplaying the whole thing as long as only ordinary citizens were concerned. The politicians (no matter what country) don't really care about ordinary citizens, they just have to pretend. However it's a completely different matter if they themselves are the target.

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The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Re:Shocking by rve · 2013-10-23 18:02 · Score: 1

I think your mistake is assuming the likes of Germany and France are allies of the US.
There was never a relationship approaching equality, nor particularly close cultural ties like with the English speaking countries, just at one time a common enemy. With the disappearance of the Warsaw pact and the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Germany's location isn't as strategic anymore, and since the Europeans have lost their ability to project military power overseas, they currently are of little strategic use to the US. Asian partners are more important right now.
What both Germany and France are, are major players in a competing bloc (in the economic sense, militarily there is no competition), each with a large population of disaffected Muslim youths.
Re:Shocking by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-23 19:09 · Score: 1

Yes, the NSA has allegedly quite brazenly stepped over some lines with this. But, France has multiple times been caught (and certainly been accused of) dabbling in a little state-sponsored industrial espionage against the US as well in the past.
Has France been caught bugging 400 million US phone calls in one month?
(The NSA bugged 70 million phone calls in a counry of 68 million people in one 30 day period. I know quantity has a quality of its own, but fuck.)

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Re:Shocking by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-23 19:13 · Score: 1

So you wouldn't mind one of your friends tapping your phones?
I hear that is known to happen inside families: husband-wife, parents-children, sibling-sibling.
Yes, this kind of thing often happens before a divorce or a touch of marital violence.

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Re:Shocking by wenchmagnet · 2013-10-23 19:38 · Score: 1

It'd be curious to know how much dirt it has on Pres. Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, The Boehner and other members of Congressional intelligence oversight committees, and how much it's shared with them.
It's MOSSAD that has the dirt on them and them by the balls, not the NSA. :-)
Re:Shocking by Torvac · 2013-10-23 19:44 · Score: 1

Sure suddenly she is pissed. after months of playing this down and going along with the US. And ofc the reason can't be that the EU parlaments position against the NSA spying (suspend SWIFT etc. ) was just published yesterday and she has to position herselfes with the EU now. despicable politicians and their shitty games, really fuck her.
Re:Shocking by X.25 · 2013-10-23 20:05 · Score: 1

I am shocked. Shocked! That a country--any country--would spy on a foreign head of state.
What a world we live in
What is shocking is that US governemnt has been crying how other countries are hacking it and said it will deem cyber attacks as acts of war.
Then, we get to learn that US has been doing these acts of war for years, indiscriminately, to both enemies and allies.
Moral high ground and all that.
So, is this the case where it's ok if US does it, but it's not ok if someone else does it?
Re:Shocking by Vintermann · 2013-10-23 20:10 · Score: 1

If your spouse betrays your trust in such a profound way as tapping your phone calls, then yes, you should consider "firing" them.
International diplomacy has been outside of democratic control for too long.

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xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Re:Shocking by aaaaaaargh! · 2013-10-23 21:00 · Score: 1

You've got an overly optimistic view of the German intelligence apparatus.
First of all, you forget to mention the real reason why the Germans likely do not spy much on the US: After WW2 US authorities recruited Nazis to build up the German intelligence agencies. Although these Nazis might have been willing to spy on Americans, they were under tight supervision by their new allied friends, and overall they were more eager to continue spying on the USSR. Their Nazi origins is also the reason why German intelligence agencies have always been spying on German leftists much more than on right-wing extremists inside the country. (The recent fairly direct involvement of the Verfassungssschutz in the protection of a German right-wing murder cell demonstrates this once more.) German intelligence agencies were practically built by the US, and are therefore still well-guarded against spying against the US, e.g. in the form of old ties, direct collaboration with the NSA, mauls, etc. In other words, they are historically 'entangled' with the US agencies.
Secondly, it is highly unrealistic to claim that Germany does not do mass surveillance. Fact is that Siemens has been caught to build mass surveillance capabilities into telco equipment delivered to foreign states, and there are good reasons to believe that the BND delivers lots of data from some countries, e.g. in the Middle East. There are also good reasons to believe that German authorities helped, on the basis of an official surveillance act from the 70s (and inofficially from the start of the BRD), to install surveillance equipment in German landlines for the NSA. Roughly speaking, much of the BNDs SIGINT is probably delivered directly to the NSA - again, for historical reasons and because German agencies greatly benefit from the data they get from the US in return.
In summary, German intelligence agencies do mass surveilance and not just for themselves but also for the NSA, and this is the real reason why Chancellor Merkel is not saying anything. She's essentially a hypocrite liar about the whole issue, but since she's a person who dislikes lying openly she tried and still tries to remain silent about it as much as possible.
Re:Shocking by gweihir · 2013-10-23 21:08 · Score: 1

You must be stupid: This is not about not spying. This is about spying in a way smart and restrained enough to not get caught.

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Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Shocking by gweihir · 2013-10-23 21:10 · Score: 1

Your mind-set is exactly what leads to the currently observable problems....

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Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:Shocking by Killjoy_NL · 2013-10-23 21:48 · Score: 1

Yeah, I'd fire my spouse, out of a cannon into the sun :P

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This is the sig that says NI (again)
Re:Shocking by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 22:00 · Score: 1

Don't forget jealousy.
But anyway, I hear the European "union" is not a happy one.
Railing against the 'Fourth Reich': Anti-German Mood Heats Up in Greece
And someone is the family might be hearing the voices of ghosts of the past.
Germany shocked by secret service link to rightwing terror cell
And the "hired help" has caused some concerns.
Kohl wanted to reduce Germany's Turkish population by one half
Who can tell what will happen?

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Shocking by soccerisgod · 2013-10-23 22:27 · Score: 1

Fuck her? Not for a million bucks :)

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If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
Re:Shocking by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-23 23:01 · Score: 1

Don't forget jealousy.
So the US thinks the EU is sleeping around, eh.

But anyway, I hear the European "union" is not a happy one.
Oh take your concern trolling and stuff it up your arse.
(Helmut Kohl wanted to reduce the number of Turkish gastarbeiter? Wow, up to date news).

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Re:Shocking by rich_hudds · 2013-10-23 23:18 · Score: 1

The greatest traitor your nation has ever seen? I suggest you read some history mate. And a dictionary.

By the way I'm an agnostic, as any rational person should be, and I don't believe in unicorns. There is no evidence of God and no way of proving there is no God. We could be living in a simulation. No way of knowing, no point in arguing. Agnosticism is the only sensible standpoint.
Re:Shocking by rastos1 · 2013-10-24 02:00 · Score: 1

Exactly, this whole thing has been standard practice for decades.
Besides, what are they going to do about it? Attack?
Re:Shocking by H0p313ss · 2013-10-24 03:44 · Score: 1

Exactly, this whole thing has been standard practice for decades.
Besides, what are they going to do about it? Attack?
The US has taken that attitude for a long time, and to be fair, who in their right mind would take them on?
It's a damn good thing for the world as a whole that the US is mostly a force for good. (So long as nobody crosses the Rubicon)
If the US truly "went rogue" it would be a royal CF for the rest of the planet.

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XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Re:Shocking by ahabswhale · 2013-10-25 13:11 · Score: 1

My mindset is what leads to reality. Yours is some kind of fantasy world that doesn't exist.

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Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?

Shocked by fldsofglry · 2013-10-23 09:55 · Score: 1

I am shocked that they are shocked.

Re:Shocked by Murvel · 2013-10-23 10:01 · Score: 1

Really? Would you say its safe to assume Germany is tapping the white house?
Re:Shocked by DrData99 · 2013-10-23 10:04 · Score: 1

No doubt at least trying...
Re:Shocked by Traksius+Egas · 2013-10-23 10:23 · Score: 3, Funny

Really? Would you say its safe to assume Germany is tapping the white house?
This has been done for hundreds if not thousands of years. Even Bill Clinton was accused of secretly tapping at least one of his interns.
--- Nothing to see here, move along.
Re:Shocked by echnaton192 · 2013-10-23 11:13 · Score: 4, Interesting

You should get out of your country from time to time. Not trying, because that would be against our interest and the poltical will to be an accepted menber of the international community. The persons responsible for such an attempt would piss their pants if it ever came to light. No pension, no longer being a bureaucrat, no longer being paid more than the average citizen.
Our lame inelligence services trying a stunt like that? No fucking way.

Out of any other country, an act of war... by intermodal · 2013-10-23 09:55 · Score: 1

How is it that no nation is treating all these discoveries this with the gravity they deserve?

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In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!

Re:Out of any other country, an act of war... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 10:01 · Score: 2

But they do! They are all "shocked" by these discoveries.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Out of any other country, an act of war... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 10:17 · Score: 1

China may now be more trust worthy than the USA.
Re:Out of any other country, an act of war... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 11:23 · Score: 1

Yet more proof that crack doesn't smoke itself.
Re:Out of any other country, an act of war... by HiThere · 2013-10-23 12:19 · Score: 2

Given that trustworthy means "You can predict how they will react to any particular situation.", you may be right.
Do I think they do less spying? No. But they they don't pretend to be friends, either.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Leader of the free world by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 09:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

Not so different from Russia and China, now are we.

Re:Leader of the free world by gweihir · 2013-10-23 10:34 · Score: 1

More effective at evil, but whether that is an advantage is a good question...

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.

The USA isn't monitoring but what about.. by number17 · 2013-10-23 09:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't think they asked the right question or got the correct response. The fact that the United States isn't monitoring her does not mean that the private company Booz Allen Hamilton isn't.

Re:The USA isn't monitoring but what about.. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 10:21 · Score: 5, Interesting

Perhaps this is why Huawei equipment was banned, it didn't have the right backdoors for the NSA to monitor everything and they were unable to force the company to put them in.
THAT is probably the real security threat, the NSA could not spy as effectively.
Re:The USA isn't monitoring but what about.. by HiThere · 2013-10-23 12:30 · Score: 2

Others have reported that the quality of the software was such that no backdoors would be needed. I haven't examined the equipment myself, so I don't know, but don't let your paranoia lead you to make foolish decisions. The NSA having a backdoor is one thing. Every cracker who feels like it having a backdoor is something a bit worse.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:The USA isn't monitoring but what about.. by MRe_nl · 2013-10-23 13:22 · Score: 1

Others have reported that the software was simply a copy of other software, which already had back-doors.

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"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
Re:The USA isn't monitoring but what about.. by ImOuttaHere · 2013-10-23 21:00 · Score: 1

Huawei was banned because the company is the technology tool of the People's Liberation Army where there is complete transparency between the two entities (in ways that US defense contractors many times don't have). Huawei was banned because they stole a rather large piece of telecommunications software from a US company, slapped their own name on it and tried to sell it back to the US. Huawei was banned because they are up to their necks in intellectual property theft from the West. Huawei was banned because the Chinese government directed the installation of their own "backdoors" into nearly everything they tried to sell back to the West so that China could better spy on us (and they're already doing an incredibly good job of it).
Need I go further?

Perhaps this is why Huawei equipment was banned, it didn't have the right backdoors for the NSA to monitor everything...
Re:The USA isn't monitoring but what about.. by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-23 23:40 · Score: 2

Their high end network hardware is at least as good as Cisco's, although I can't comment on their consumer grade stuff. Either way it's a choice between NSA backdoors or Chinese government backdoors.

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const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:The USA isn't monitoring but what about.. by HiThere · 2013-10-24 07:40 · Score: 1

If it's just a choice between China having a backdoor and the NSA having a backdoor, I'd prefer China. They have less immediate power to make my life miserable, and I'm even less worth their interest.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-23 09:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

- Do you use electronics to communicate?

- Do you live on Earth?

If you answered "yes" to either of these questions, then you can assume that yes, the NSA is monitoring you.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese

Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 10:08 · Score: 1

If you answered "yes" to either of these questions, then you can assume that yes, the NSA is monitoring you.
Along with the Chinese, Russians, French, British, Canadians, ...., and just about everyone else in the local neighborhood.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by WillAffleckUW · 2013-10-23 10:19 · Score: 1

If you answered "yes" to either of these questions, then you can assume that yes, the NSA is monitoring you.
Along with the Chinese, Russians, French, British, Canadians, ...., and just about everyone else in the local neighborhood.
I really like that pool you have in your backyard, and all the video will be useful on the black market, if you catch my drift ...

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-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 11:02 · Score: 1

Now if only there was the slightest bit of proof that sort of thing was even an occasional occurrence regarding the treatment of US citizens by the NSA.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by WillAffleckUW · 2013-10-23 11:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

There's lots of proof, but you're not cleared to see it, and the use of warning letters specifically disallows you from talking about it after you've seen it.
(caveat: due to quirks in NATO regs I'm not bound by the same restrictions)

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-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 11:35 · Score: 1

If that were true I would expect it would be pretty high priority for Greenwald to leak, and there is nothing like it so far from him, or anyone else for that matter. Due to the total lack of supporting data I'm going to call this a wild fabrication.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by WillAffleckUW · 2013-10-23 11:45 · Score: 1

People called the Yakima Listening Center a wild fabrication back when I toured it in the 80s, but it was still there and still listening until it recently closed.
Look, you can pretend all you want, but I personally know what we do, and I've known it for a long long time.
You learn how to correlate data as part of tradecraft when you start. The fact that you personally have not seen such letters or such data is meaningless, because you never were supposed to see such things, and you have no idea how you find out. Nothing bad about that, but commenting on it not existing is just a sign you're incredibly naive.

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-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by Cyfun · 2013-10-23 12:35 · Score: 2

Hell, the "Earth" thing probably doesn't even apply as I'd be willing to bet they have access to NASA's radio transmissions, too. After all, their acronyms are only one letter apart.

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In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 14:10 · Score: 1

I doubt that many people that passed through Yakima Firing Center would consider it a fabrication.
You made a not especially indirect insinuation about the use of national intelligence means for use in personal blackmail of US citizens. I am willing to entertain that such material might be made available for foreign issues. I might be willing to entertain the possibility that such materials could be used as part of a domestic espionage investigation to steer things. But for work a day economic or political matters? I think there is a burden of proof that needs to be met beyond just the fact that the technical means available make such a thing possible.
The US waterboarded three terrorists ten or more years ago* and from resulting scandal and howling, which continues to this day, you could think a regular, large supply of captured terrorists was being fed into a plastic shredder a' la Saddam's Iraq on a daily basis. The revelations about NSA surveillance in the US are largely old hat if you were reading the news in 2006 or even before - somehow they managed to slip out. The idea that the US government could or would engage in casual blackmail of US citizens would be a scandal at least as big as those, and it is hard to see how it would remain quiet. Even the use of national security letters and a variety of other matters has become known.
If you want to tap dance around the subject and hint that blackmail is going on without proof, fine, but I'll remain skeptical. Correlation without documentation doesn't necessarily equal proof. But point me towards something, if you care to. There are plenty of people on Slashdot that "know" things that aren't necessarily so.
*When the US has waterboarded probably tens of thousands of its own special forces and pilots over the years - and continues to do so.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by AHuxley · 2013-10-23 15:47 · Score: 1

Cold you don't seem to understand that the waterboard is not OK under international law. What the US subjects its special forces and pilots does not change the legal definitions.
Snowden is slowly giving the world a look into the US economic and political aspect too. The "engage US citizens" aspect is well understood via historical events such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO.

--
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-24 02:30 · Score: 1

If you answered "yes" to either of these questions, then you can assume that yes, the NSA is monitoring you.
Along with the Chinese, Russians, French, British, Canadians, ...., and just about everyone else in the local neighborhood.
To paraphrase the not-so-great Herbert Morrison, "Oh, the hyperbole!"
The little old lady down the street is not monitoring my, nor anyone else's, communications.
As for the Russians, Chinese, et. al... well, first off, there's zero evidence been offered that would show any of those nations you named have the equipment or capabilities that we know the NSA to have. Secondly, As I reside in America, even if they did I'm not really all that worried about some Chinese party insider getting ahold of my email, seeing that I'm not a fan of their policies, and deciding to use that information against me. My own government, on the other hand, can and has in the past used stuff said online to hunt down and persecute me, Jofi Joseph style.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 03:09 · Score: 1

If you answered "yes" to either of these questions, then you can assume that yes, the NSA is monitoring you.
Along with the Chinese, Russians, French, British, Canadians, ...., and just about everyone else in the local neighborhood.
Sorry, no. No other country has the surveillance capabilities and resources the US does. We spend waaay more on this stuff than anyone else. Sure, other countries spy, but not on the scale and scope of the NSA.

--
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 03:12 · Score: 1

If that were true I would expect it would be pretty high priority for Greenwald to leak, and there is nothing like it so far from him, or anyone else for that matter. Due to the total lack of supporting data I'm going to call this a wild fabrication.
Glenn Greenwald hasn't reported it? Well, I guess that settles it then.

--
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 03:20 · Score: 1

If you want to tap dance around the subject and hint that blackmail is going on without proof, fine, but I'll remain skeptical. Correlation without documentation doesn't necessarily equal proof. But point me towards something, if you care to. There are plenty of people on Slashdot that "know" things that aren't necessarily so.
Indeed there are. I can point you to this: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-nsa-spying-on-and-blackmailing-high-level-government-officials-and-military-officers.html. It's not blackmailing of ordinary citizens, it's actually worse.

--
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Re:Quiz: Is the NSA Watching You? by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 03:22 · Score: 1

Cold you don't seem to understand that the waterboard is not OK under international law. What the US subjects its special forces and pilots does not change the legal definitions.
As I'm sure you've noticed he's a big fan of false equivalences and excusing one's own behavior by comparing it to that of another.

--
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)

Don't get caught by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 10:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

Call it what you want, when close allies catch you spying on their head of state, you're handing them a bag of bargaining chips.

How it happened by Megahard · 2013-10-23 10:07 · Score: 4, Funny

When GWB gave her a backrub, he must have been secretly planting a bug.

--
I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.

Re:How it happened by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 11:04 · Score: 1

When GWB gave her a backrub, he must have been secretly planting a bug.
I'm pretty sure that GWB didn't give her either the flu or crabs. I'm sure we would have heard something about that.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:How it happened by DoofusOfDeath · 2013-10-23 12:12 · Score: 1

Wow, best reverse-porn ever. How much would you pay to not see that?

I wonder what their real understanding is by guanxi · 2013-10-23 10:11 · Score: 1

These governments have all known about this spying for a long time (as has anyone who reads the news carefully). Maybe they feel the need to pretend to be surprised, but I wonder what the real understanding between governments is. When is it ok? How much is too much? What are the lines?

Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by gweihir · 2013-10-23 10:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

The head of state of a friendly government is completely off-limits for spying. That is only permissible for enemies and even there highly problematic as it can be considered an act of war. Those responsible in the NSA must have lost their minds completely and worked themselves into a mind-set where everybody is the enemy. There also cannot have been any oversight that deserves the name.

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by scoticus · 2013-10-23 14:41 · Score: 4, Interesting

Those responsible in the NSA must have lost their minds completely and worked themselves into a mind-set where everybody is the enemy.
Yep. Everyone IS our enemy. We have completely lost our post-WWII advantage of being the only industrial power worth a damn. The world is catching up. If we want to maintain our "exceptionalism", we must consider every last nation a competitor. This means treating even our friends as rivals. It's pretty fucking stupid, but there it is.
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by TheGratefulNet · 2013-10-23 15:33 · Score: 1

The head of state of a friendly government is completely off-limits for spying.
why? WHY??
why would she get more rights to privacy than I would?
I object to that! as any self-respecting free person would. ...not that my objection is worth the electrons its printed on.

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by gl4ss · 2013-10-23 16:35 · Score: 1

Spying on pretty much everyone is illegal by the laws of the countries they(targets) are in.
I think the only way to stop the madness is to find out the actual people doing the spying and bring them lawful consequences in the countries the spying was done in. that would make people think twice about working for nsa(and equivalents in other countries), since it could lead to them being unable(or seriously limited) to travel internationally(due to having interpol arrest requests on their heads).
Easiest way to not get caught is of course to not do such spy hacking.
and after all if I did such hacking on pentagon I would be having an extradition request on my head so why the fuck should they(nsa ops), from my countrys perspective, get a get out of jail for free card?? if I ran an organization like that and publicly announced that I have authority to hack american servers because they are in america and got caught for doing exactly so then surely I would end up on several arrest lists!
and if USA has to spy on their allies to get an edge in negotiations about sanctions on supposed common enemies then maybe something about usa policies is fucked to begin with... well something about usa policies is fucked with for sure when they have to close down visa applications and trade talks(with eu) because they can't fucking decide to spend money they already decided to spend.

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world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by guanxi · 2013-10-23 17:29 · Score: 1

The head of state of a friendly government is completely off-limits for spying.
Is that your opinion about right and wrong, or are you answer the question of 'what are the unspoken rules of international espionage'? If the latter, what is that based on?
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by Vintermann · 2013-10-23 20:20 · Score: 1

why would she get more rights to privacy than I would?
One thing is that as a private person she has a right to privacy just like you.
But she is also entrusted with an office. If you spy on her, you're also spying on that office, and trampling on the rights of the ones who put her there (the German public).

--
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by Tom · 2013-10-23 21:11 · Score: 1

it can be considered an act of war.
This.
Lots of people here are so used to their regular levels of paranoia that they don't get the gravity of these actions anymore.

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by gweihir · 2013-10-23 21:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

It also is going to fail rather spectacularly. The US was never exceptional, except in vastly overestimating its power. Today, it looks more and more like a retarded (nuclear) suicide-bomber that tries to take the world hostage.

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by gweihir · 2013-10-23 21:14 · Score: 1

The principle is to never make it personal, so you can always (re-)open talks if needed. Spying on a head of Government immediately makes it personal as the US is currently finding out.

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Re:I wonder what their real understanding is by JasterBobaMereel · 2013-10-24 00:14 · Score: 1

The NSA only spies on enemies, or potential terrorists, or people linked to potential terrorists, or people linked to people linked to potential terrorists etc ...... oh that appears to be everyone ...

--
Puteulanus fenestra mortis

It's only metadata by WillAffleckUW · 2013-10-23 10:16 · Score: 1

Metadata that just happens to involve who she talked to, what keywords they used, what the tone of her voice was, and all the secret project names for hiding the money Germany stole from Greece during WW II.

I don't see the problem ...

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-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --

Re:It's only metadata by maxwell+demon · 2013-10-23 17:56 · Score: 1

Not really. The banks who had borrowed money to Greece got their money back. With interest, indeed.

--
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Re:It's only metadata by maxwell+demon · 2013-10-24 08:23 · Score: 1

"borrow"
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
LENT money to Greece. LENT.
You cannot "borrow something to someone". Back to primary school with you, and this time stay there until you can actually speak, read and write English at an acceptable level.
I've got news for you: There are people whose native language is not English. Which foreign language do you speak?

--
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.

So what ? by Yoda222 · 2013-10-23 10:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

What's the reccurent argument that we hear from politics, probably including A. Merket or at least some CDU/CSU people ? Something like "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear." Does she has something to hide ?

Re:So what ? by gweihir · 2013-10-23 10:42 · Score: 1

Judging from the history of CDU/CSU chancelors, presidents and other high-ranking politicians: Oh, yes! She will have a lot of things to hide, including things that would cost her her office and maybe things that would have worse consequences if they ever came to light. Not that the SPD politicians are that much better...
BTW. it is "Merkel".

--
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.

it is now obvious by FudRucker · 2013-10-23 10:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

that the NSA is not doing all this spying for looking for terrorists, it is espionage, they are wanting to steal data for their fascist criminal friends that run the military/industrial complex (private sector) for profits, it is basically theft of various sorts (whatever they can get their greedy hands on)

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Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing

Re:it is now obvious by argStyopa · 2013-10-23 11:34 · Score: 2

Or they're performing the BASIC function of an elint organization, that is, gathering any and all intelligence on other states that they can or possible threats to the US.
You *do* know that the US has military plans for fighting any country in the world, including our friends, right?
This is for-keeps geopolitics. This is not playground tiddlywinks.

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-Styopa
Re:it is now obvious by maxwell+demon · 2013-10-23 18:00 · Score: 1

Or they're performing the BASIC function
BASIC? Maybe they should upgrade to a more modern language.

--
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Re:it is now obvious by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 20:30 · Score: 1

The nature of "flamebait" moderation is often interesting. It seems one may always make wild charges about the US and be considered "insightful," but one may not challenge the narrative or it is "flamebait," or a "troll."

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:it is now obvious by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-23 23:44 · Score: 1

I keep plans for murdering all my friends too. This is my life we are talking about, not playground tiddlywinks.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:it is now obvious by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 03:42 · Score: 1

There are legitimate reasons to spy, but that does not make all spying legitimate. The NSA may be looking for all the things you suggested and more. But they were already suspected of using their powers for industrial espionage. So the idea that they are still doing that is not far-fetched.

--
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Re:it is now obvious by IndustrialComplex · 2013-10-24 04:17 · Score: 1

Just because you can, does not mean you should. You can lose bad in geo-politics by alienating your allies. What happens when we need that ally's support in negotiating a trade agreement? What happens when you need their support but you have burnt up feelings of good will?
Think of your best friend. Would he do a significant favor for you? You are asking a lot, but he trusts you.
Now violate his trust. Will he still do a favor for you? Why should he expose himself to harm again? Should he just trust you?
Trust is astoundingly fragile, and it takes a lot of work to earn in the first place. Earning it back after losing it is much harder if at all possible. In my life, I have never encountered a situation where it was more beneficial to violate the trust of a friend than it was to preserve that trust.

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Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj

New handset... by XB-70 · 2013-10-23 10:43 · Score: 1

Time to switch to BlackBerry!

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*** Don't be dull.***

Re:New handset... by TheGratefulNet · 2013-10-23 15:35 · Score: 1

I accidentally put the batteries in backwards and now it turned into a whiteberry.
its quite secure, now. so secure, it won't even power on anymore!

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:New handset... by F.Ultra · 2013-10-24 00:25 · Score: 1

Wouldn't that be a brickberry?

Because they do it too by Overzeetop · 2013-10-23 10:44 · Score: 1

Every government in the world spies on everyone else. You don't think Obama's Blackberry hasn't been the subject of at least a concerted wiretapping effort? Everyone seems so surprised that we have [scary music] spies working in our intelligence bureaus.

That and, lets face it, most nations don't have the cash to pick a winnable fight with the US and the one that does depends on us to buy all of the shit they make.

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Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?

Re:Because they do it too by HiThere · 2013-10-23 12:24 · Score: 1

I think you overestimate China's dependence on the US. Certainly China is quite willing to use us for it's benefit, but dependence means that we produce something they need, and the only such thing is dollars, of which they already have more than they can expect to use.
OTOH, China directly and through middle men probably owns over half of the US. It's hard to be sure. Certainly more than 30%. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they "own" over half of the politicians at the federal level.

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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

recorded phone conversations by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 10:44 · Score: 1

President Francois Hollande claimed to have issued a stern rebuke to President Obama in a phone conversation

Which was carefully recorded and filed along with the rest of his phone conversations.

and why it is like it is by FudRucker · 2013-10-23 11:02 · Score: 2

the governments are above the law, they can do whatever the hell they want to do, until a force bigger than them kicks their ass and says otherwise, it has been that way throughout history and thats the way it always will be

--
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing

it's like he was psychic by themushroom · 2013-10-23 11:11 · Score: 3, Funny

President Obama 'assured the chancellor that the United States is not monitoring and will not monitor' her communications.

The NSA had informed him that she was going to ask him if she was being monitored.

--
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.

NSA by mfh · 2013-10-23 11:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

Let's take it one step further and identify the REAL PROBLEM.

The NSA isn't saying they want to have all information to be free and accessible to everyone uniformly -- they are saying they want to have it forever for their own purposes (whatever those might be).

But when Snowden does the same exact thing as the NSA -- according to them he must be punished as a traitor.

Laws are not therefore uniform. They apply only to some... and when that is happening there is no society. There is only the law of the insect colony and a fat queen riding the heap.

--
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.

Re:NSA by allcoolnameswheretak · 2013-10-23 11:38 · Score: 1

> Laws are not therefore uniform. They apply only to some...
Sorry, but...
can't resist, to say...
NO SHIT Sherlock.
Re:NSA by phantomfive · 2013-10-23 12:33 · Score: 1

Laws are not therefore uniform.

Yeah, specifically, laws in the US don't apply to chancellors in Germany. I know, it's a hard concept.

--
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:NSA by HiThere · 2013-10-23 12:37 · Score: 1

I think you don't understand insect colonies very well. Just because one particular insect is called the Queen, doesn't mean she has any control. Generally she has less control than do the workers, even at an individual level.
Of course, you *could* be asserting this about the heads of state, but it didn't sound like it.

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:NSA by TheGratefulNet · 2013-10-23 15:37 · Score: 1

the bond of trust is broken. its painfully obvious that rules don't apply to those in power. therefore, the rules are void. feel free to follow your concience and break any laws you want.
welcome to the brave new world. maybe world 2.0 will be a better one. maybe.

--

--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:NSA by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 21:34 · Score: 1

Hit him where it hurts, his understanding of insect colonies...
Re:NSA by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 04:11 · Score: 1

the bond of trust is broken. its painfully obvious that rules don't apply to those in power. therefore, the rules are void. feel free to follow your concience and break any laws you want.
welcome to the brave new world. maybe world 2.0 will be a better one. maybe.
This is a good explanation of the problem, that a lot of people don't seem to understand. When people see that the rules don't apply to a certain class of other people, they start to think they shouldn't have to play by the rules either. That's why it is important to lead by example, rather than just insist people obey authority while maintaining a double standard.

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"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)

Blame Bush? by mveloso · 2013-10-23 11:25 · Score: 1

If it wasn't for that other guy, I would never have even thought about tapping your phone. But since he build the framework that allowed me to do it, of course I did it.

Re:This is what NSA should be doing. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 11:28 · Score: 1

That's why I'm relieved that our boys at GCHQ have bugged the Oval Office. Can't really trust those treacherous rebels against their lawful monarch, even if it's necessary to play along with their illegal regime for now.

NSA: your intelligence partner by mveloso · 2013-10-23 11:31 · Score: 1

In a surprise move, it was discovered that the NSA has secretly been moonlighting by outsourcing its collection abilities to third-parties, including foreign governments.

"It's a natural fit," said James Clapper, embattled NSA chief. "We spend billions of dollars yearly on collection, computation, storage, and analysis. By leveraging these investments, we provided intel capabilities to foreign governments at a fraction of their retail cost - and at a significant profit." Intelligence analysts pointed out that by providing these services the NSA was essentially hamstringing foreign intelligence services. "What they don't do they can't get better at" said one anonymous intel source.

While the NSA refuses to break out specific numbers, it is believed that revenue from this operation runs in the billions.

Re:This is what NSA should be doing. by allcoolnameswheretak · 2013-10-23 11:32 · Score: 1

PASS AUF!

I am sendink meine Panzers out to get you!!! Schutzstaffel!

Why write this article... by Coditor · 2013-10-23 12:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

...and not mention what kind of phone it is? The people who want to argue want to know.

are French authorities retarded? by ILongForDarkness · 2013-10-23 12:23 · Score: 1

Can anyone honestly believe the the US isn't spying or trying to spy on them? Countries will spy to try to get a strategic or tactical advantage ... that is what they do, some better than others, the US better than most.

Re:are French authorities retarded? by sydneyfong · 2013-10-23 15:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

Way to justify everything with a sentence.
Can anyone honestly believe [accused] isn't [doing something wrong]? People will [do bad things] to try to get a strategic or tactical advantage .... that is what they do, some better than others, [accused] better than most.
Let's try a few examples.
Can anyone honestly believe Enron wasn't cooking the books? Companies will falsify financial information to try to push up their stock price ... that is what they do, some better than others, Enron better than most.
Can anyone honestly believe men aren't out there to rape women? Humans will use force to try to get a strategic or tactical evolutionary advantage. That is what they do, some better than others, this rapist better than most.

--
Don't quote me on this.
Re:are French authorities retarded? by JasterBobaMereel · 2013-10-24 00:16 · Score: 1

The NSA's job is to spy on anyone and everyone who might be a potential threat to the USA .... the only limit on this is when they are specifically told not to ...

--
Puteulanus fenestra mortis
Re:are French authorities retarded? by ILongForDarkness · 2013-10-24 01:54 · Score: 1

As another poster has already replied the difference is the NSA/CIA and other militaristic government entities are by design meant to look out for any potential threats to the US. Since anyone could potentially be a threat you need to spy on everyone to find out if they are smiling to your face while they arm up.
The Enron example would be more like: "Can anyone honestly believe that an energy company won't look for more resources? That is what they do."
Regardless, the underlying flaw/feature of the three letter agencies and there peers around the world is that it ultimately comes down to a "them/us" comparison where people need to be lumped into categories and have fundamentally less rights depending on which country, religion, political ideology etc you believe in.
Re:are French authorities retarded? by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 04:17 · Score: 1

The NSA's job is to spy on anyone and everyone who might be a potential threat to the USA .... the only limit on this is when they are specifically told not to ...
Might be a potential threat? That's gotta be the broadest brush I've ever seen. If we're guarding against anything that might be a potential threat (under some circumstance at some point in the indeterminate future), then we're guarding against everything. I can think of a scenario in which air might be a potential threat.

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"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)

EU voted in encryption bypass .. by codeusirae · 2013-10-23 12:27 · Score: 1

"Chancellor Angela Merkel .. views such practices .. as completely unacceptable"

Then Chancellor Merkel shouldn't have voted in leglisation that compelled the phone manufacturers to build back-doors into the encryption modules.

Re:EU voted in encryption bypass .. by maxwell+demon · 2013-10-23 18:06 · Score: 1

But how on earth should she have ever guessed that those backdoors will actually be used?

--
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.

just a thought. by chr1st1anSoldier · 2013-10-23 12:59 · Score: 1

The NSA has been caught, granted, but what about other countries like China? They are known for having a cyber army division as a part of their offense/defense. Other countries have the same, recognized and funded divisions of their military devoted to cyber warfare and defense. How deep do their fingers go?

This is embarrassing by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 13:07 · Score: 1

As an American, I'm embarrassed for the acts of our leaders and civil servants.

The sad thing is, I'm sure things like America spying on the leaders of countries we are friends with has been happening on and off - or perhaps continuously - for decades or even centuries.

Incest is OK, as long as it stays in the family by vi.emacs · 2013-10-23 13:29 · Score: 1

Der Spiegel has some information on Germany's own "PRISM" project.

Until now, the monitoring capabilities of the BND have been much more modest than those of its big brother, the NSA, but they basically work according to the same principles. At key junctions for digital traffic in the country, the German foreign intelligence agency has set up its own technical accesses.

-vi

Obama wasn't called by bugs2squash · 2013-10-23 13:32 · Score: 1

President Francois Hollande claimed to have issued a stern rebuke to President Obama in a phone conversation with his wife

FTFY

--
Nullius in verba

"even" their Twitter? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 13:34 · Score: 1

As if that's the difficult or surprising one?

"may have" by manu0601 · 2013-10-23 13:38 · Score: 1

They "may have" being listening to Merkel communication? I admire the journalist that was able to keep it to the fact, and retained being too much affirmative, but I would be very surprised if NSA did not listen to Merkel (and all other EU leaders) communications.

I wonder if they managed to monitor Putin, though.

Don't you mean... by MRe_nl · 2013-10-23 13:51 · Score: 2

"In a surprise move, it was discovered that the NSA has secretly been moonlighting by selling its collection results to third-parties, including foreign governments"?
And yes, but not for cash. Tit for tat. Echelon, Gladio, Five Eyes et al, these are all joint exercises. Everybody is in on it. The only difference at the moment is the NSA got hit by a string of defectors. My analysis would be that it's almost unavoidable once your team get's too big, unless everybody is motivated by a shared powerful ideology (X will save our country, or X will kill us all). But a small team and/or strong shared ideology both have their disadvantages as well.

--
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"

NSA is Out of Control by edibobb · 2013-10-23 13:59 · Score: 2

If the President ordered the NSA to stop spying on U.S. Citizens, Germany, France, Japan, the U.K., and Australia, would the NSA obey? I think not. They are completely out of control, above (or below) the law and the U.S. Constitution.

Re:NSA is Out of Control by AHuxley · 2013-10-23 15:50 · Score: 1

The political leaders become addicted to the intel per election/generation. The US/UK has had this global insight for their top staff for a while. The GCHQ/NSA just keeps on collecting and the cleared political leaders just keep on reading the files they are given.

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Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"

Prophecy? by cffrost · 2013-10-23 15:12 · Score: 5, Funny

Perhaps Dubya was trying to let Merkel know at that G8 dinner party in 2006 — one way or another — maybe not that night, and maybe not by him, but someday, she was going to get "tapped" by a US President.

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Thank you, Edward Snowden.

"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan

Oh what a joke. by geekymachoman · 2013-10-23 15:18 · Score: 2

I feel disgusted every time top politicians plead ignorance about what other countries top politicians/owners are doing. They all in bed and these kinds of news are just a circus for the hungry.

NSA can tap phones beds bathrooms of every each one of European politicians and 5 years later, the EU ones are still gonna down the planes of let's say South American presidents if US gives them a call about it.

That's how the real truth comes out. Everything else is BS and especially this Merkel.

But people love it. There are some, don't like it... don't like the circus.. but most of the people do. It fills their empty lives with low quality content on which they comment and give their opinions, exercise their freedom of speech. Me ? I'm just hangover and talking sh.t.

ZOMG NEWS! by Notabadguy · 2013-10-23 16:19 · Score: 1

This just in....spies suspected of spying. More on this breaking story at 11.

German security fail by putaro · 2013-10-23 17:05 · Score: 1

If this really happened, it's a German security FAIL. A nation like Germany should be able to secure the communications of the head of state. If the NSA isn't trying to tap her phone you can be assured that the Chinese and the Russians are trying.

I've got no issue with the NSA going after foreign governments. My issue with the NSA is that they are turning this nation-level spying apparatus on regular citizens.

Re:This is what NSA should be doing. by maxwell+demon · 2013-10-23 17:58 · Score: 2

Things can change quickly and we might not be allies forever.

Especially if you continue to piss off your allies.

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The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.

Interesting ... by garry_g · 2013-10-23 17:58 · Score: 1

... when all 80 Million Germans were under surveillance, everything seemed to be OK ... political leaders said everything was fine, all questions had been answered, go back to your everyday life ... (mainly because German BND most likely was completely involved, also) But now all of a sudden they are p*ssed because they may have been a target ... sorry, but _I_ am also concerned about _MY_ privacy ... why do you believe you are better than anybody else of the 80 million citizens? After all, _YOU_ are also a citizen, and _WE_ have put you where you are now ... so, next time your citizens are under attack (so to speak), remember what it feels like and do your God damn job right!

Did I mention most politicians suck?

So... by ruir · 2013-10-23 19:56 · Score: 1

you tell me mobster have encrypted lines and software for talking, and head of states just talk about sensitive matters over the phone like us, common people?

Re:So... by Talar · 2013-10-23 21:53 · Score: 1

Different feedback mechanisms. Mobsters who don't encrypt go to jail, politicians who don't encrypt still get reelected.

Das Leben der Anderen by datalife · 2013-10-23 20:25 · Score: 1

Whats wrong with it?

Obama cares ...
about
Das Leben der Anderen.

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There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re:MOD PARENT UP by cold+fjord · 2013-10-23 21:48 · Score: 1

That's a great idea! I'll check to see if they have any openings tomorrow. It would be great to have more time and resources to correct some of the nonsense that floats around the intertubes.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell

US gov't has admitted already by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 22:17 · Score: 1

If you read Der Spiegel, you will see that the US government has admitted to having spied on Merkel already. A spokesperson of the US gov't told Der Spiegel that the US do not wiretap the chancellor's communication, nor will they ever. When Der Spiegel asked if the US had spied on Merkel in the past, the spokesperson declined to respond. Seems clear to me.

Eine Sprecherin des Nationalen Sicherheitsrats der Vereinigten Staaten erklärte zu den Vorwürfen gegenüber dem SPIEGEL: "Der Präsident hat der Kanzlerin versichert, dass die Vereinigten Staaten ihre Kommunikation nicht überwachen und auch nicht überwachen werden."

Die Sprecherin wollte auf SPIEGEL-Nachfrage ausdrücklich nicht sagen, ob das auch für die Vergangenheit gilt. Auf diesen Punkt wurde am Mittwochabend auch in Berliner Regierungskreisen hingewiesen.

Re:Thanks again Snowden by Killjoy_NL · 2013-10-23 23:07 · Score: 1

Personally, I'm glad all of this is coming out, so I do say "Thanks Snowden, good job"

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This is the sig that says NI (again)

Natural selection in politics by Max_W · 2013-10-24 02:07 · Score: 1

It is everywhere. It all started with J. Stalin listening to phone-calls in Kremlin, in 20s. Nowadays all non-eavesdropping political forces died out due to natural selection.

Re:MOD PARENT UP by kilfarsnar · 2013-10-24 02:26 · Score: 1

It would be great to have more time and resources to correct some of the nonsense that floats around the intertubes.

It would, but you post too much and I don't have that much time.

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"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)

"Mr. President" by museumpeace · 2013-10-24 03:09 · Score: 1

"In 10 seconds, the phone will ring. It will Angela Merkel."

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SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.

You spy so you know who your friends are. by tmilne · 2013-10-24 10:30 · Score: 1

How can you be sure they're really your friends if you don't spy on them? How can you be sure they are acting in your best interest? The only hope you can have in privacy is really that either people aren't interested, or at least the people that are interested aren't powerful enough for the NSA to share information with.

Slashdot Mirror

Germany: We Think NSA May Have Tapped Chancellor Merkel's Cell Phone

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