Nebraska Scientists Refuse To Carry Out Climate Change-Denying Study

Governor Appointed by Yahooti · 2013-10-27 07:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

How do we keep politics out of this?

Re:Governor Appointed by 0123456 · 2013-10-27 07:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

How do we keep politics out of this?
By eliminating all taxpayer funding of 'science'.
As Eisenhowr said, in the paragraphs everyone ignores just after he warned of the growing Military-Industrial Complex:
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central, it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.
So long as politicians fund science with taxpayers' money, it will be politicized.
Re:Governor Appointed by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

the politicized environment this topic is stuck in.
oil companies make trillions each year, THAT's the source of the politicization (with the help of some media networks, funded by said corps of course.)
Re:Governor Appointed by Microlith · 2013-10-27 08:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

Indeed, it should be entirely privately funded. Thus we can focus on the research that matters: only that which can be monetized within the next 4 quarters or sooner!
Re:Governor Appointed by YoungManKlaus · 2013-10-27 08:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

I Disagree. Publically funded research is essential because there are many fields that private companies would not research (ironically, like climate change) and where monetary interests influence the results. The main problem here is that it seems that there are no checks in place to prevent (obvious) influence from eg. lobbying groups, or prevent bogus research from being funded (like the "only cyclic" climate change that is the topic here)
Re:Governor Appointed by newcastlejon · 2013-10-27 08:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

How do we keep politics out of this?
By keeping politics out of it. Set aside a portion of the national budget to research that will be overseen by an independent trust, then release all the fruits of the same into the public domain.
Sorry, we were talking pies in the sky, weren't we?

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Re:Governor Appointed by hey! · 2013-10-27 08:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

Taxpayer funding of science has *not* produced politicized science; not during the period, say, from the end of WW2 to the end of the 20th C. Yeah, it *sounds* plausible that federal funding should produce politicized research, but if you ever worked in a science lab or with researchers on Federal grants you'd know that it just didn't happen.
So what has changed? Thus far, for the majority of researchers, not much. But there have been two big issues. One is the rise of political concern over climate change research. The second is the shift of the Republican party from a industrial state based, business-oriented party to a Southern regional party driven by social and religious issues. 52% of Republicans believe in creationism in a recent Gallup poll, as opposed to 34% of Democrats (still shocking). Having a majority membership of a major political party has given religious ideologues political influence they haven't enjoyed since the 1920s.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Bob9113 · 2013-10-27 08:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

By eliminating all taxpayer funding of 'science'.
As Eisenhowr said, in the paragraphs everyone ignores just after he warned of the growing Military-Industrial Complex:
Using Eisenhower's warning about the influence of politics on science to reach the conclusion that all taxpayer funded scientific research should be eliminated is about as sensible as taking his warning about the military industrial complex to conclude there should be no taxpayer funded military.

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Re:Governor Appointed by AlphaWolf_HK · 2013-10-27 09:06 · Score: 2

So you're saying nobody anywhere ever, other than the government, would fund climate research? That just makes no sense at all.
First, you have entire industries dedicated to profiting off of the idea that the world is about to explode unless we start going green. Solar panel manufacturers, raw materials recyclers, electric vehicle manufacturers, and much much more. Those groups alone profit from studies predicting a bad future.
Then you've also got the insurance industry who always has to have their ear to the ground when it comes to determining how much it should bill for premiums - a big chunk of their profit model comes from forecasting the climate.
Of course, doing this kind of research costs money. And why on earth would you spend any money on that when it's pretty easy to just get the government to do it for you? All you have to do is whisper into some politician's ear, and they'll eat it up because it makes their constituents feel good about themselves.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Required+Snark · 2013-10-27 09:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

So where did the internet come from? Was it a untapped natural resource that was just lying around, unused until somebody figured out how to make it work?
In case you forgot, the internet started as ARPANET, which was funded by the federal government. It was a research project, which is the R in ARPA. Research means experimentation, which is what scientists do. That this funding came out of the DOD is irrelevant. Quibbling about it not being "science" is also nonsense. The academic field that includes computer networking is called computer science. I don't think anyone has plans to change the name anytime soon.
You are dumber then a box of rocks. You live in an environment created by a huge effort on the part of countless people, many of whom worked for various governments. Jet engines, nuclear energy, computers, all resulted from government initialed efforts.
You're ignorant and ungrateful. I wish there was some way you could be stripped of all the benefits that have accrued from government research. You'd be sitting miserable in some decrepit hovel, which is all you deserve.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Ash+Vince · 2013-10-27 09:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

First, you have entire industries dedicated to profiting off of the idea that the world is about to explode unless we start going green. Solar panel manufacturers, raw materials recyclers, electric vehicle manufacturers, and much much more. Those groups alone profit from studies predicting a bad future.
That is utter crap. Solar panel manufacturing is not that profitable, if it was why is BP winding down its solar division:
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9025019&contentId=7046515
Recycling is also not exactly a sure fire route to buckets of cash. Somethings it is cost effective to recycle like aluminium and maybe steel but most stuff is cheaper to just throw in a hole in the ground. The problem is that nobody wants a landfill next to their house and so the only money is in making rubbish go away as nobody wants to deal with it. Most stuff is simply too damn hard to split out into its raw materials in order to recycle it without serious government grants.
As to electric vehicles it might be trendy but it is nowhere near as profitable as making good old fashioned gas guzzlers. The US auto industry did not need to be bailed out due to everyone buying electric cars, they needed a bailout because labour costs were too high and because more and more people were choosing to buy foreign cars. Most other countries auto industries have done ok.
The reality is that without government funded research coming out of other countries the huge corporations and oil companies would have just out spent everyone else trying their damnedest to sweep climate change under the table.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Yahooti · 2013-10-27 09:59 · Score: 2

Better to a science panel than a professional welfare recipient.
Re:Governor Appointed by TapeCutter · 2013-10-27 10:38 · Score: 2

Government funds the research that private enterprise can't or won't. Private enterprise not only funds research in self-interest often funds research with "no strings attached", the institutions set up by Gates, Gore, Clinton and others are all excellent examples if you can see past the politics of the front man. As much as I hate the anti-science FF lobbyist, the $50M spent on them by corporations over 20yrs is a drop in the ocean, I find it bizarre how what amounts to a "rounding error" spent on anti-science propaganda can so effectively whip up an army of useful idiots.

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Re:Governor Appointed by riverat1 · 2013-10-27 10:42 · Score: 2

If science is done correctly it shouldn't matter what the funding source is. All of the money in the world can't change reality. You can try to put whatever spin you want on science but ultimately the real world will trump it.
Re:Governor Appointed by hey! · 2013-10-27 10:46 · Score: 3, Interesting

Well, I used "creationism" as shorthand for the result. 52% of Republicans believe that the world was created by God some time in the last 10,000 years. 34% of *Democrats* took that position in the Gallup survey. It is possible that not all of the people who believed that call themselves "creationists"; but generally people reject "-ist" labels put on them by others.

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Re:Governor Appointed by BitZtream · 2013-10-27 10:48 · Score: 2

That is utter crap. Solar panel manufacturing is not that profitable, if it was why is BP winding down its solar division:
Because petroleum is far more profitable and a better way for them to make money ... and solar will still be there when the oil runs out.

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Re:Governor Appointed by hey! · 2013-10-27 11:00 · Score: 2

Plus, if you really believe that 34% of Democrats believe in creationism, you seriously need to stop eating what the press is feeding you. The press is nothing but scare-mongering, and whether it's ginning up fears that the terrorists will kill you, or that the creationists will take over, the press is mostly fiction.
I'm just going by what the Gallup poll said. There may be methological flaws, of course, such as relying upon self-reported party affiliation.
As for the power of the religious right in the Republican party, I think the poll's estimate is probably high if you look at people *highly* involved in Republican politics, such as people who volunteer on campaigns or run for office. But if I'm right, that doesn't mean that the religious right isn't influential. Political power is dependent upon your ability to swing results. You don't need to be a majority in the party to have influence; you need to be necessary to forming a winning coalition.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Capsaicin · 2013-10-27 11:44 · Score: 2

Not only that, but there are glaring counterexamples. Koch money, for instance, funded BEST.
Which was a review of extant climate science and would not have been funded but for government funding of science. So perhaps not as good an example as it appears on first appearances.

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Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Re:Governor Appointed by Capsaicin · 2013-10-27 12:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

So you're saying nobody anywhere ever, other than the government, would fund climate research?
Let's rephrase to remove that objection.

Publicly funded research is essential because there are many fields where private funding would be somewhere between insufficient to non-existent, especially those with low potential for obvious commercial application (ironically, like climate change). Additionally there are many fields where monetary interest raises questions about the reliability of industry based research (eg. the efficacy of glucosamine in the treatment of osteoarthritis), which reliability can be assessed only by comparison with publicly funded (as close as we can practically get to independent) research.
To blame the nature of government funded research itself, for the gross attempt at state intervention described in the present article, is not only to misunderstand the nature and ignore the importance of public research, it is to underestimate the transgression contemplated by this intervention. Instead of attacking science funding we ought attack the administrator who fails in their duty to respect independence in publicly funded research. With pitchforks if necessary.

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Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Re:Governor Appointed by qeveren · 2013-10-27 12:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

This, exactly. Business has no interest in pure research - it has no direct, monetizable goal - and it certainly isn't interested in sharing any results if it bothered.

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Re:Governor Appointed by ArbitraryName · 2013-10-27 12:30 · Score: 2

Elon Musk
Musk put about $100 million of his own money into SpaceX. $4-500 million has come from NASA.

Bell Labs
They closed up shop specifically because it was becoming impractical for private companies to make those big gains anymore.

xerox PARC
Up util the mid 70's received huge amounts of funding from DARPA.

Is the government the ONLY one that spends on basic research with no immediate application? Absolutely NOT!
While this is technically still true, this isn't the mid-20th century anymore. That's the exception, not the rule. Keep in mind that that research funding came from an environment of high taxation leading to research being the best way to at least keep some benefit in house.
Re:Governor Appointed by riverat1 · 2013-10-27 13:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sort of like the National Science Foundation?
Re:Governor Appointed by microbox · 2013-10-27 13:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

So you're saying nobody anywhere ever, other than the government, would fund climate research? That just makes no sense at all.
The university system is the USA's last beacon of exceptionalism, and is systematically being eroded by turning professors into professional grant writers. Momentum is mostly what is really keeping it going. The public funding of research also supports education of the entire population. Only a radical would propose undoing such a successful system based on some intellectual theory on how societies and economies work. A theory that most academics disagree with. See Hayek's Fatal Conceit.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Tom · 2013-10-27 14:14 · Score: 2

52% of Republicans believe in creationism in a recent Gallup poll, as opposed to 34% of Democrats (still shocking).
This is what really changed: You've become a country of idiots, morons, fools and imbeciles.
If the USA had had that attitude towards rocket science, it would still try to put a man on the moon, today.

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Re:Governor Appointed by rtb61 · 2013-10-27 16:01 · Score: 2

That is totally wrong. You can fund science and ask a stupid question and then get a stupid answer, then twist that stupid answer into something it is not.
In this case earth cyclic weather change. Well that is utterly meaningless, as it can only really occur due to external circumstance ie solar output and orbital mechanics. Catch is both of those do not explain major ice ages. Which look to be driven by probability based co-incidental major geological events (a series of major earthquakes and major volcanoes at near the same time, which due to probability can be hundreds of thousands or millions of years apart, basically random through extreme complexity) or dust clouds driven by spacial events, as well as major celestial impacts.
Life can of course have an impact, as a result of run away species explosion but these of course are again not cyclic. So here the stupid question is, are there cyclic weather events, the answer yes, stellar output and orbital mechanics. This well then be trotted out as the reason for the current event, even though science has already substantiated that it is not.
Reality is of course we house billions in coastal cities, even if this where a cyclic event we logically should take every means possible to circumvent it and sustain the current sea over the full life of our human society, else those billions will be seeking what is the apparent social cyclic event, of the public execution of those who caused and or allowed the problems to occur.

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Re:Governor Appointed by shutdown+-p+now · 2013-10-27 20:27 · Score: 2

If all you say is so true, then why all Republican candidates in the 2012 primaries were pandering to extreme social conservative wing so much?

Really? by kramerd · 2013-10-27 07:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why do we not need a study on cyclical climate change? Recognizing how much of global warming isn't due to humans is also important.

Re:Really? by ericloewe · 2013-10-27 07:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

That's not the problem, the problem is that they were being tasked with a *wink* independent *wink* study that is definitely not *wink* supposed to benefit climate change deniers *wink*.
Of course, open-minded studies are always needed, but this specific one reeks of political interference.
Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:43 · Score: 5, Informative

Because "cyclical climate change" is voodoo. It doesn't explain WHY it changes, it's just curve fitting.
Moreover, if you'd ever bothered to read ANY of the IPCC reports, you'd see that in the Attributions section it goes into the non-anthropogenic forcings.
However, it's just much easier for you to go "Derpy derp derp!".
Re:Really? by Carewolf · 2013-10-27 07:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

There are studies of it, plenty. What we don't need is politically motivated research with predefined results. That has also been done several times, and they all ended up agreeing with the scientific consensus (though sometimes only after being called out on fabricated numbers and bad science).
Re:Really? by shentino · 2013-10-27 08:01 · Score: 2

Because lopsided focus causes bias.
Re:Really? by Alef · 2013-10-27 08:02 · Score: 5, Informative

If you don't have any understanding of the noise, how can you detect the signal?
You can't, which is of course why that is pretty much all climate research consists of -- separating and modelling different forcings and interactions, some of them caused by human activity, most of them natural. Really, how did you figure climate researchers arrived to the conclusions there are today? Have you even looked at any research?
I don't even know what they mean by "cyclical climate change". There are multiple factors affecting the average energy in the climate system, greenhouse gases (primarily carbon dioxide) and solar irradiation being the most important ones. You need both to explain temperature trends, not only the current ones but historical. It has been studied by many researchers to great detail, and it is being studied still more.
By telling the researchers to "look at 'cyclical' climate change", you are telling them to lock in to a conclusion, that climate changes cyclically, instead of studying and understanding the mechanisms that causes change. It is probably one of the most blatant and ignorant attempt and controlling science for political motives I have seen.
Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 08:18 · Score: 5, Informative

"That's not the problem, the problem is that they were being tasked with a *wink* independent *wink* study that is definitely not *wink* supposed to benefit climate change deniers *wink*."
Yes, it is the problem.
Science is science, regardless of any political reasons for doing it. There is ample reason to study cyclical climate change, which unlike AGW we know beyond doubt does happen.
It is the scientists who are refusing to study it who are being political, to the detriment of science. They should be taken out and shot. Or at least kicked out of any professional organizations they belong to.
You do know that absolutely all serious climate research do this already? That is take into account natural causes in addition to human influenced causes. The "baseline" people keep talking about here is part of every major study on this. It is interesting how easily people seem to think that their own "common sense" trumps science. "Stupid scientists, weather changes, why didn't they think of that!" It explains how people can so readily dismiss science in various areas, like evolution for intelligent design, alternative medicine for medicine etc.
Re:Really? by icebike · 2013-10-27 08:22 · Score: 2

look at 'cyclical' climate change", you are telling them to lock in to a conclusion,

Wrong.
All you are telling them to do is to quantify the noise: Separate natural changes from their claims of AGW.
Some of this has been studied, most of it has simply been denied.

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Re:Really? by sumdumass · 2013-10-27 08:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

Then let the science speak for itself. I mean seriously, if it is already being done then it will independently verify the know results and strengthen the argument fot AGW. If the science shows something different, then the models can be improved but at least it will be science driving it regardless of the motivation for the science. Iff the science doesn't happen because of politics, we will know it is politics.
I simply do not understand how a group can claim something is scietifically true and refuse to do svcience because the results might favor people who do not trust the svientific accuracy of that truth. Its like saying this lock id unpickable and never letting anyone try to pick it.
Re:Really? by sg_oneill · 2013-10-27 08:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

It is the scientists who are refusing to study it who are being political, to the detriment of science. They should be taken out and shot. Or at least kicked out of any professional organizations they belong to.
The problem is, the study they where asked to take had as part of its *premise* that it was caused by non human means.
This is a bit like asking physicists to come up with a reason that newtons apple falls that DOESNT involve gravity. It just stops being science.

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Re:Really? by sumdumass · 2013-10-27 09:00 · Score: 2

Its called a hypothesis and the science will either support it or refute it. That is how science works even if you do not like the hypothesis or the people wanting it tested.
Re:Really? by jjohnson · 2013-10-27 09:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

To paraphrase you: you "should be taken out and shot". They're already studying "cyclical" climate events as a normal part of studying climate change. They're not ignoring anything. The fact that a legislative body is trying to force them to study something that they're already studying, under a label so hilariously inaccurate as to be useless, is evidence of just two things: 1) they have no fucking clue what they're talking/legislating about; 2) they want "science" backing up the conclusion with which they started.
And 3) you're a useful idiot for them.

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Re:Really? by Jane+Q.+Public · 2013-10-27 09:33 · Score: 2, Informative

The problem is, the study they where asked to take had as part of its *premise* that it was caused by non human means.
Um... no, it didn't. TFA doesn't say that, nor does the article that TFA links to.

The ONLY thing even remotely related to that was mention that the word "cyclical" was put in. There is no indication that the study calls for any pre-determined conclusions. It only stipulates that certain parts of the climate equation be studied. Why do you have a problem with that?

I think you've been drinking too much of the Kool-Aid.
Re:Really? by mvdw · 2013-10-27 09:57 · Score: 2

alternative medicine for medicine etc.
Reminds me of the Tim Minchin line: "You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine."
Re:Really? by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-27 10:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

When a politician with openly stated biases comes to you and asks for evidence to support his existing point of view you should be suspicious. No matter how good your study they will at best use one or two data points out of context and ignore your conclusions.
It's a trap.

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Re:Really? by SuperKendall · 2013-10-27 10:16 · Score: 2

You do know that absolutely all serious climate research do this already?
Yes, that's how i could tell these were not serious climate scientists.

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Re:Really? by Alef · 2013-10-27 10:20 · Score: 2

There are a multitude of cyclical climate events that make up part of the models used in AGW theory.
Yes! They are so intimately part of climate change models that it would be impossible to not study cyclical properties. That is why the statement doesn't make sense to me -- it would be like saying "we want you to study climate and focus on molecules", or some other completely generic and inseparable property abundant in every aspect it. And then they call it "cyclical climate change", as if there existed some kind of separate theory of the climate that is purely cyclical. As opposed to what? Linear climate change? Like you said yourself: "You simply can't even begin to have a valid theory if you do not take them into account".
The only plausible reason I can see why they would give that kind of directive to the researchers, is that they have read a claim from someone that "it could all be cyclical" (insinuating somehow not caused by the huge increase in greenhouse gases), and instead of actually trying to understand some of the science, or even the scientific process in general, they buy into those kind of vague, unspecified myths, and now want the scientists on "their" payroll to "investigate" them, nonsensical as they may be.
Either that or pure malice, but since I firmly subscribe to Hanlon's razor, I'm going for scientific illiteracy over malice.
Re:Really? by quantaman · 2013-10-27 10:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

It is the scientists who are refusing to study it who are being political, to the detriment of science. They should be taken out and shot. Or at least kicked out of any professional organizations they belong to.
The problem is, the study they where asked to take had as part of its *premise* that it was caused by non human means.
This is a bit like asking physicists to come up with a reason that newtons apple falls that DOESNT involve gravity. It just stops being science.
It's actually worse than that. The topic of study is on the impact of climate change on Nebraska, but the bill says they're only supposed to look at "cyclical" changes.
I think it's more like asking biologists to study the effects of antibiotic resistance, but they're not allowed to use evolution and must assume that the DNA of the bacteria doesn't significantly change over time.
Not only is it a nonsense question studying a fictitious universe. It's a completely useless question since there isn't any such thing as antibiotic resistance without evolution.
What's the effect of climate change on Nebraska if you assume all the climate changes are cyclical? Well nothing, because if the changes are cyclical there is no climate change.

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Only in America by Billly+Gates · 2013-10-27 07:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

Name one other country with a political party who is so hellbent on reality distortion to do such silly things with tax payer money? Name one other country who will purposedly ally themselves with corporate interests agaisn't the will of the people to do such silly things like publish these studies?

America is turning into the laughing stock of the world. It is truly embarrasing. Conservative Americans might be mad at my post or the suggestions we should all start voting for democrats, but at least they are somewhat sane and do not deny reality.

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Re:Only in America by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:49 · Score: 5, Informative

Canada. Look up Steven Harper and muzzling scientists.
Re:Only in America by nbauman · 2013-10-27 07:52 · Score: 2

Name one other country with a political party who is so hellbent on reality distortion to do such silly things with tax payer money?

Nigeria?
Re:Only in America by gmuslera · 2013-10-27 08:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

If the effects of what they are doing would only hit US, then would be the laughing stock. But you don't laugh at the mad driver that is pulling all of the world to a cliff.
Re:Only in America by mevets · 2013-10-27 08:20 · Score: 2

There is a saying that you get the government you vote for. It is obvious that existing parties have permitted too many special interests (from oil companies to deficits) dictate their priorities. The citizens are supposed to take a participatory role in selecting government and driving its priorities. They have chosen the backseat, or more properly have sold their control for a handful of shiny beads. Blaming your government is blaming yourselves.
This isnâ(TM)t an America only problem; variants of it play out everywhere (except probably in Norway, the bastards). It may be more acute in America, but there is a lot more at stake there.
Re:Only in America by quacking+duck · 2013-10-27 10:24 · Score: 4, Informative

Canada. Look up Steven Harper and muzzling scientists.
And under the banner of a Conservative government.

denier scientists by MightyMartian · 2013-10-27 07:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

Surely some of the AGW denying researchers like Roy Spencer will take up the invitation. Funny thing about Spencer and his ilk, though. They're quick to take Koch money to attack AGW, but seem reticent to do actual research to back up their frequent public skepticism.

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In unrelated news . . . by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:25 · Score: 5, Funny

. . . Scientists refuse to carry out a pedophile-glorifying study for NAMBLA.

In forums all across America, pedophiles complain about "Damn scientists, damn eddekashun, and their political biases."

Skepticism is a scientific virtue. by mc6809e · 2013-10-27 07:30 · Score: 2

But only if that skepticism is also applied to one's own ideas.

Vanity makes it easy to be skeptical of others' theories but it's leaving open the possibility that one's own theories could be mistaken that makes one a scientist.

Misguided. by RightSaidFred99 · 2013-10-27 07:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

These scientists are misguided, to put it kindly. I don't think they've really thought out their positions.

First, science is science. There is value in studying the natural climatic progressions of the planet.

Most importantly, by refusing they are doing far more to help deniers than they would be by doing the study. Just makes them look like they have something to hide to the typical conspiracy minded denier dolt.

Re:Misguided. by artor3 · 2013-10-27 07:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

The deniers will believe whatever their masters tell them. Jumping through hoops to satisfy them accomplishes nothing, and only lends credibility to the false notion that this is still being debated by scientists. It's not.
They need to be minimized, ignored, shoved aside. Lives depend on it, and only a fool would think that another study would satisfy them.
Re:Misguided. by artor3 · 2013-10-27 08:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

We have mountains of evidence supporting AGW, and we know that AGW will result in widespread suffering and death if left unchecked. We do not, and cannot, have "mountains of evidence" against religion in general, and religion in general doesn't kill people.
We do have mountains of evidence against certain religious beliefs, such as faith healing, and in those cases we DO intervene, e.g. by forcing parents to take their kids to a doctor.
People can believe what they want, but when we as a society are making life-and-death policy decisions, we should rely on evidence and scientific consensus.

Re:Science, or sinecure? by polar+red · 2013-10-27 07:35 · Score: 2

here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeYfl45X1wo and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge0jhYDcazY are 2 ways falsify the co2 heating effect. go ahead, falsify.

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Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?

Re: Science, or sinecure? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

Good lord, what the fuck is wrong with the commenters here? It's for the same reason that biologists wouldn't consent to researching intelligent design as a 'falsifiable alternative' to evolution, without evolution being a part of the study. The study is framed in a way that ignores the overwhelming weight of the evidence and lends credibility to crackpots.

Re:Science, or sinecure? by DAldredge · 2013-10-27 07:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

So should government fund Young Earth Creationism "Research" / Intelligent Design research?

Re:So they are unwilling to establish baseline cha by ericloewe · 2013-10-27 07:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

You can't selectively investigate one possibility while completely ignoring the other.

Re:Scientific Method by Guppy06 · 2013-10-27 07:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

> the study specifically calls for the researchers to look at 'cyclical' climate change

It's almost as if someone has proposed a hypothesis to be either validated or rejected by examination.

Except that it would have to be either demonstrable or falsifiable to be a hypothesis. There's no point to "study" the existence of something someone just pulled out of their ass to try to make a political point, especially when there is every indication that the person defining something as ephemeral as "cyclical climate change" will simply claim the study didn't add enough epicycles.

Past all the heiressy by smittyoneeach · 2013-10-27 07:53 · Score: 2, Informative

Atlantic Hurricane Season Quietest in 45 Years
Recalls Ace of Spades:

"If only there were some. . .natural mechanism by which to explain variations in global temperature.
It would have to be massive, though. On the scale of our own Sun."

The idea that, just because I find the "Anthropogenic Global Climate Warming Change" club is tantamount to a religious cult armed with a computer model means that
I am automatically contending that "climate is constant", is more than a little silly. The idea of nature conservation is as conservative as conservare.
If the last decade of ManBearPiggery has taught anything, it is the imperative to reject categorically all appeals to guilt & fear. Make the argument, put the raw data and the model out there for calm reflection, or understand that you've completely undercut your point.

--
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear

You don't really get science, do you? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

Politician: We're commissioning a study on biodiversity. But this study strictly focuses on intelligent design, so don't include anything about evolution. After all, we should explore alternative explanations for a prevailing theory.
Biologist: We refuse to participate in your misleading, artificially limited study.
Idiot Slashdot Commenters: The biologists are an evolutionist cult! They're... they're building a cathedral! Science isn't just confirming what you know! Real scientists would do the investigation to learn more about intelligent design!

And yes, before, you say it, cyclical climate change is a real phenomenon while intelligent design is not. But the idea is the same. You can't analyze an effect and pretend one of its primary causes just doesn't exist.

The study is about the effects of climate change by Xolotl · 2013-10-27 08:01 · Score: 5, Interesting

No one has RTFA it seems ... (I know, I know, /.)

The scientists are being asked to study the effects of climate change on Nebraska, not climate change itself.

in that context restricting them to studying the effects of cyclical changes only is stupid, and the reason for their protest.

Re:So they are unwilling to establish baseline cha by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 08:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

Of course you can. Does smoking cause cancer? That doesn't deny that radiation causes cancer, it just looks at whether smoking causes cancer.

Re:So they are unwilling to establish baseline cha by shentino · 2013-10-27 08:04 · Score: 2

More like they know the human involvement angle is going to be blatantly suppressed.

Re:Here is a hint: by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 08:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

The "president" of the IPCC is the guy that owns the worlds biggest trading company of "carbon credits".

This claim would be more interesting with a citation. The chair of IPCC is Rajendra K. Pachauri (since 2002). What is the name of the carbon credit trading company he owns?

You think that government is apolitical? by xmark · 2013-10-27 08:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

wow

Everyone has an agenda. Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society. It is (and has amply proven itself to be) capable of corruption, graft, and political pursuit of goals contrary to the interests of those who are taxed to fund it.

Concentration of power is the problem. Politically, big corporations and big government are a difference without a distinction. They both pursue their own agendas in service to the elites who are stakeholders, and then use propaganda to claim otherwise.

Re:You think that government is apolitical? by polar+red · 2013-10-27 08:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society.
I disagree. Look into the funding of elections.

--
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by PopeRatzo · 2013-10-27 08:34 · Score: 5, Interesting

Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society.
That stopped being true thirty years ago.
If by "powerful" you mean the ability to influence society, it's not even close. If you mean, "the ability to put armies in the field", corporations are catching up fast. If you mean, "the ability to exert their will on individuals, corporations are way ahead of governments.
With the rise of corporate sovereignty, corporations are now saying, "We don't need governments, so we plan to ignore them".

--
You are welcome on my lawn.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by MightyYar · 2013-10-27 09:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

If you consider that he said "big corporations and big government are a difference without a distinction", then the problems we have with corporate money in politics makes more sense.

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W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by lgw · 2013-10-27 09:03 · Score: 2

Why does that make you want to disagree? Oh, I see. You're still clinging to some outdated notion that there's some difference between government and corporations. How quaint.
Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society precisely because it's the "end boss" of all the large corporate entities.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by Ash+Vince · 2013-10-27 09:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why does that make you want to disagree? Oh, I see. You're still clinging to some outdated notion that there's some difference between government and corporations. How quaint.
Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society precisely because it's the "end boss" of all the large corporate entities.
I think it is the other way around. Due to the huge amount of funding needed to get elected it is those who donate the most to political campaigns who ultimately are in charge, that is the corporations. Politicians simply do what their corporate backers tell them unless they know it will cause them too many problems with their electorate to get re-elected.

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I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by hsthompson69 · 2013-10-27 11:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

Okay, so two thought experiments:
1) big corporations don't exist - politicians exert control over small businesses, extorting money out of them for election funding, and giving favorable treatment to those who pay up, and penalties to those who don't
2) overwhelming government power doesn't exist - big corporations don't throw money at politicians, since they can make better investments that have better returns.
I'm afraid the root cause of the problems of corruption in government are *directly* related to the outsized power big government has - if government was limited, and could not tip the economic scales of the market in one direction or another to benefit their cronies, there would be no incentive for big business to take part in the election process.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by diamondmagic · 2013-10-27 11:39 · Score: 2

Politically, big corporations and big government are a difference without a distinction.
Corporations get stuff done because someone with money thought up an idea.
Governments get stuff done because someone with a personal army thought up an idea.
Now I don't know about you, but I'll take the guy with money any day. I see a kind of big difference between a door-to-door salesman ringing my bell, and the IRS, FBI/NSA, or EPA ringing my bell. (If they're polite enough to not just knock the thing in first.)

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Wonder what the public key field is for?
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by dpilot · 2013-10-27 13:28 · Score: 3, Informative

Actually, I fear the real problem is this: "Homo Sapiens is an oxymoron." Both corporations and government are composed of people, and all-too-often people embrace and extend their flaws, rather than trying to be better people.
As for option 1, you're right. As for option 2, you're nuts. Corporations would do away with regulations, our air would be like China's, The Cuyahoga River would still be burning, and things like the Triangle Shirtwaist fire would be regular occurrances, except "tort reform" would be used to make sure corrective action couldn't be taken.
IMHO the power hierarchy should be:
1 - The voters
2 - The government, but that government should be wise enough to know that that power should be used sparingly.
3 - The rest.
Nifty experiment... Imagine that we could all designate how our tax dollars were to be spent. You can't change the amount, just the distribution. I have this ugly feeling that by the time everyone had stated their wishes, with perhaps a few rounds of iteration on the process, the budget would wind up pretty close to where it is now.

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The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by c0lo · 2013-10-27 16:48 · Score: 2

I'm afraid the root cause of the problems of corruption in government are *directly* related to the outsized power big government has - if government was limited, and could not tip the economic scales of the market in one direction or another to benefit their cronies, there would be no incentive for big business to take part in the election process.
You are right, but for the wrong reasons.
You see, if big business are not limited by anything but themselves (the "free market fairy" hypothesis), then there would be no election process - the big corps don't need it because they don't need democracy to function.

--
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by dpilot · 2013-10-27 23:58 · Score: 2

No, I would say that in China the corporate/government line is even more blurred than in the US, except that in China the power flow is in the other direction. The net result is the same.
There are starry-eyed types on both sides, the side that says government can solve problems, and the side that says government is the problem. You obviously appear to be in the latter camp.
Given the government that you describe, I'll ask my 3 questions again:
1 - What keeps our air cleaner than China's?
2 - What keeps the Cuyahoga river from burning?
3 - What keeps Triangle Shirtwaist factories from burning?

--
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by coinreturn · 2013-10-28 00:27 · Score: 2

Politically, big corporations and big government are a difference without a distinction.
Corporations get stuff done because someone with money thought up an idea.
Governments get stuff done because someone with a personal army thought up an idea.
Now I don't know about you, but I'll take the guy with money any day. I see a kind of big difference between a door-to-door salesman ringing my bell, and the IRS, FBI/NSA, or EPA ringing my bell. (If they're polite enough to not just knock the thing in first.)
I take it you also don't want paved roads, schools, police departments, firemen, or safe food.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by Ash+Vince · 2013-10-28 00:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm afraid the root cause of the problems of corruption in government are *directly* related to the outsized power big government has - if government was limited, and could not tip the economic scales of the market in one direction or another to benefit their cronies, there would be no incentive for big business to take part in the election process.
Actually, the big reason that businesses engage with politicians is not to unbalance the market, it is to make sure they have a nice friendly environment to do business in. They lobby government to pay less tax, be allowed to hire and fire at will, and also get new laws onto the statute book that benefit them like the DMCA.
I know this is going to be a wasted breath, but anyone in the US vaguely interested in how governments work should actually take a look at a few political systems in modern Europe and see how they prevent thing like corruption and use government and regulation as a method of restricting the power of large corporations instead of enhancing it. That might involve looking beyond the news reported by US news networks though as they generally have a serious vested interest in government being weaker so the rich and the corporations that own them gain even more power to push the pro-capitalist propaganda that so many of them are so fond of.

--
I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by Jason+Levine · 2013-10-28 02:52 · Score: 2

Unfortunately, the other end of that is: If government was limited too much, it would not be able to stop abusive practices of big businesses. Some government rules and regulations might be garbage, but others are the result of businesses in the past trying to get away with anything and everything. Minimum wage laws and limits on worker hours or child labor? Because big business used to work people (including children) to the bone for virtually nothing. Workplace safety laws? Look at the garment district in NYC around the 1910's for why these were in place. (Tons of people on the 2nd floor of a building with only one exit - which was blocked off until quitting time - and then a fire started. You can guess the result.)
If we had a truly small federal government, businesses might not lobby the government to do what they want done but only because they would just do it on their own knowing that nobody could stop them. Imagine if Wal-Mart decided that all employees had to work for $3 an hour and needed to work 15 hour days, 7 days a week. Yes, some would quit, but others would likely be in such a bad financial position that they wouldn't be able to leave their jobs. (Especially if other big businesses copied these policies.) Now, imagine the federal government's only recourse was to ask nicely if they would pretty please with a cherry on top stop it. If Wal-Mart said no and the federal government's only available action was wagging their finger at Wal-Mart, it would send a clear signal to all other businesses: Open season on your employees. Do what you like and nobody will stop you.
No, a large, overly powerful federal government isn't good. However, neither is too small of a federal government. The key is getting the federal government *just* the right size and keeping it there. Of course, if you figure out how to do this, you're likely to win a Nobel Prize. If you figure it out AND get it put into action, you're a miracle worker!

--
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.

Great opportunity. by mevets · 2013-10-27 08:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

Method:
1. Collect data on pre-inhabited Nebraska [ say 1CE - 1700 CE - soil samples, tree rings, etc.. ]
2. Take earliest modern measurements [ say 1890 - 1900 ].
3. Superimpose #2 measurements upon #1 curves.
4. Announce expected weather for 1950 - 2050; ignoring actual measurements made during this period.
5. Conclude that the difference between measured, 1950..2013, and expected is human caused.
6. Spend rest of budget on beer + pizza.

It might actually be interesting.....

Re:Scientific Method by Guppy06 · 2013-10-27 09:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

There are known solar cycles for example. There are known cycles in the Gulf Stream, there is ENSO, etc., etc...

And if the study finds conclusions that the legislature doesn't like, that simply means that the study didn't focus on the right cycles, or enough cycles, or the right combination of cycles. And the study will just have to keep going until the data suits the "hypothesis."

Re:Scientific Method by mutube · 2013-10-27 10:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

Grant money is grant money, and publications are publications.

That couldn't be less true if it tried. A PhD/post-doc spent outputting useless intentionally-crippled research is not the basis of a successful career.

I am sure there are many grad students / post docs willing to take on this research.

Find one. I hear Nebraska has some money to spend.

--
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer

Re: Science, or sinecure? by mutube · 2013-10-27 10:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

The majority disagreeing with you |= a conspiracy.

The scientists are free to study what they like (in so far as permitted by their funding). This is a deliberately scuppered study on the effects of climate change on Nebraska. By ignoring the elephant in the room the results become next to useless, even dangerous. Since scientific careers are built on usefulness of research taking this on = ~ 3yr of career down the pan for nothing. "They should study it anyway! Scientific curiosity! Every angle!" Yes, and they should also study whether there are fairies on the moon and whether the solution to this whole climate change thing is copper bracelets or setting fire to icebergs. Nobody has checked that right?! Right!

There are an infinite amount of things to study. Scientists have to use their judgement, based on evidence and experience to determine the validity of a line of investigation.

Your boss comes in tomorrow and says "Hey 'phairy, we've got a problem with the network think we're getting hacked." All the evidence points to Chinese hackers, there are even posts all over Netcraft confirming it. "But," your boss continues, "my new business partner is Chinese so don't bring them into it". "I want the report on my desk pronto - and if it doesn't help fix the problem you're fired!*"

I guess you'll just buckle down and write that report?

*fudged to fit the analogy. Feel free to replace with "you can spend the next 3 years upgrading our network to block everything (except Chinese hackers). If it doesn't solve the problem you're fired!"

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Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer

Re:Science, or sinecure? by Jane+Q.+Public · 2013-10-27 14:33 · Score: 2

There is not a single piece of evidence that could falsity that hypothesis.

You know what? I concede this argument, because I went back to refer to your original comments, and I had mis-read what you wrote (quoted above). I had it in my head that you had written "There is not a single piece of evidence to that effect."

Mea culpa. Misunderstanding. You are correct that there is nothing that can disprove the hypothesis of a "young earth". I had simply not read your comment correctly, and thought you were claiming something you did not, in fact, claim. :(

Re:Wrong! by PopeRatzo · 2013-10-27 14:42 · Score: 2

Government is supposed to play the role of the impartial referee in the game of "Capitalism".

Absolutely not. No less an expert than Thomas Jefferson believed that government's role was to act in opposition to corporate power. Not impartial, but as a counterforce that could bring some measure of moral accountability to the amoral golem of the corporation, with it's shields from personal liability.

Outside of unions and governments, there are no other such forces. And before you say, "Free Market", that only works as long as there is some measure of moral accountability, such as social pressure on corporate leaders. With the rise of the multinational, there is no person to be held accountable. So, you end up where a corporation that has stolen $10billion being given a fine of $1million. I think a 1000:1 ratio between profit and cost is no counterforce at all.

Further, with the enormous consolidation that has occurred in the corporate sector, it is no longer possible for consumers to enforce moral accountability. That's why we're in a post-free market era. There's no free market because there cannot be a free market. Free markets are the LAST thing powerful corporations want.

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You are welcome on my lawn.

Re:The study is about the effects of climate chang by skine · 2013-10-27 15:49 · Score: 2

So, this is really just an example of what we all (should have) learned when taught logic:

False premises lead to whatever conclusion you want.

In order for the statement "If only cyclical changes influence climate, then the effect on the climate of Nebraska will be ________," to even be worth asking, there has to be a good reason to assume that only cyclical changes influence climate, or a good reason not to assume other influences.

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Nebraska Scientists Refuse To Carry Out Climate Change-Denying Study

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