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Arizona Commissioner Probes Utility's Secret Funding of Anti-Solar Campaign

mdsolar writes "An Arizona utility commissioner is asking for all the key players in a debate over a solar energy policy in the state to reveal any additional secret funding of nonprofits or public relations campaigns. The probe comes after Arizona Public Service, the state's largest utility, admitted last week that it had been secretly contributing to outside nonprofits running negative ads against solar power. As The Huffington Post reported Friday, APS recently admitted that it had lied for months about paying the 60 Plus Association, a national conservative organization backed by the Koch brothers, to run ads against current solar net-metering policy. APS is currently pushing the Arizona Corporation Commission to roll back the policy, which allows homeowners and businesses with rooftop solar energy systems to make money by selling excess energy back to the grid. Solar proponents say that the policy has facilitated a solar boom in the state, and that changing it could have a huge negative impact on future growth."

207 comments

  1. Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is a shame that the solar debate is guided so heavily by politics. It is a shame that APS cannot have a public discussion regarding the negative side of solar projects without being bashed by politicians and a list of anti-everything groups that have no accountability. It is shame that APS feels the need to quietly support the dissemination of this information through indirect channels, and not be forthright about it when questioned.

    A key red flag in the article is the question of using 'ratepayer money'. That is a political ploy meant to inflame. The rate base is negotiated between the PUC and the utility based on a range of factors including cost of operation, capital needs and others. It also includes profit for the utility. There should be no restrictions on how the utility uses that profit. It is funny that nobody complains about money sources when APS finances an efficiency campaign. Let’s be honest, the outrage is simply the fact that the drawbacks of solar are being promulgated. Would these same politicians be outraged if this money went to a pro-solar entity? A climate exists where large utilities or other entities must publicly profess that solar is always wonderful or otherwise get labeled as money hungry evildoers.

    Facts are facts. Solar is clean, diverse, expensive and unreliable. There is a fit for it in the mix. There is also a point where it causes problems for the grid that will require significant waste or expense to alleviate. Growth must be managed properly to get the maximum benefit. In most cases, we could reduce environmental impact much more per dollar by investing in energy efficiency rather than solar. Unfortunately, that approach does not produce a visible "green" trophy. Installing solar thermal water heaters would yield much better financial and environmental returns than solar PV.

    Most residential solar units are installed by wealthier Americans who are taking advantage of huge tax incentives. Essentially, we are paying for much of their energy cost via our tax dollars. I find it amazing that some of the same folks who complain about the very wealthy are so willing to give them money in this manner.

    Solar has a place in our energy mix. Solar also has its drawbacks, and its OK to talk about them. Or is it an outrage?

    1. Re:Its a shame. by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Political ploy? If they charge that they should pay it, or damn near it. A utility should have severe restrictions, you get those when you are a monopoly. I would prefer if the lines were owned by the state and the power provided by many providers.

      It is fine to talk about them, it is not fine to fund FUD from far right wing groups.

    2. Re:Its a shame. by CaptainLard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem here is "APS recently admitted that it had _lied for months_ about paying the 60 Plus Association". Things may have been different if they'd just come out with their side of the story on why solar is bad. The way they went about it is indeed an outrage.

    3. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's interesting is that the Republicans here are showing their true colors, fighting against an independent populace when they want the populace to be heavily dependent on their corporate owners. Imagine the nerve of suggesting that people might not only live off the grid, they could invest their money in a means of production and then sell that product! Oh dear! If this continues, we might have unbridled capitalism, and where would Republicans be without corporate graft?

    4. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Using shills to push your agenda is not having a public discussion. If the folks at this company had wanted to participate OPENLY in the debate, that would be one thing. Instead they chose to use fronts to get away from the public eye.

      That invalidates their participation, as they are not honest, but instead deceitful. They can't be trusted now, nor can any of the claims made by their agents.

      We probably need to treat them like Enron, so that others learn a lesson from this. Be forthright.

    5. Re:Its a shame. by khallow · · Score: 3

      Imagine the nerve of suggesting that people might not only live off the grid, they could invest their money in a means of production and then sell that product!

      It's not a market. The purchaser is forced by law to buy the power.

    6. Re:Its a shame. by fche · · Score: 1

      "they could invest their money in a means of production and then sell that product"

      If that product were sold at voluntary market rates, and its means of production were not grossly subsidized, all the more power to them. (Neither would be true around here in the great white up.)

    7. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wealthy Americans? That's a bit relative ... it's mostly the middle class benefiting.

      If residential solar creates too unreliable a mix then APS can simply stop building their own solar plants BTW.

    8. Re:Its a shame. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Imagine the nerve of suggesting that people might not only live off the grid, they could invest their money in a means of production and then sell that product!

      In other words, people with excess solar capacity are small-business owners.

      To be fair, Republicans fully support small-business owners, unless they interfere with big business, or Conservative moral/social agendas, or a politician's chances of getting re-elected, or those people have anything to do with minorities, women, reproductive rights, sexual orientation ... Wait, what was I talking about again?

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    9. Re:Its a shame. by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And you are forced by law to buy his power.

      I cannot turn off the electricity to my home without having it condemned. I cannot select another provider. I cannot buy power upfront for a lower cost.

      There is simply no real market activity for anyone in this arrangement.

    10. Re:Its a shame. by couchslug · · Score: 2

      "It is shame that APS feels the need to quietly support the dissemination of this information through indirect channels, and not be forthright about it when questioned."

      Pity the unfortunate wealthy businesses who feel the need to Astroturf, and pity the poor Slashdotters who confuse the need for debate with the need for Astroturfing.

      (weeps)

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    11. Re:Its a shame. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

      Things may have been different if they'd just come out with their side of the story on why solar is bad.

      Utilizing Solar energy may have issues, but I'd be hard pressed to describe it as "bad" - unless you're a fossil-fuel company. Perhaps, I'm misinformed, but all I can imagine is Mr. Mackey from South Park saying, "Solar energy is bad, m'kay."

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    12. Re:Its a shame. by baffled · · Score: 3

      Facts are facts. Solar is clean, diverse, expensive and unreliable.

      Expensive? Get your facts straight.

      http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/capitalcost/
      Check out Table 1 from this report we paid for. Assuming the guys we paid to assemble the report did their jobs well, it shows capital costs and operational costs on-par or better than most forms of energy except natural gas.

    13. Re:Its a shame. by abhisri · · Score: 1, Informative

      Clever arguments... a bit too clever.

      I think folks in the energy/power sector are just worried about things turning out the way they did in Germany.

      http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/08/20/2140215/germany-produces-record-breaking-51-terawatt-hours-of-solar-energy-in-one-month

      Well... until and unless you actually want to argue that Germans are better at this stuff than Americans. But I doubt that so I will wait for some more clever explanation and excuses why the Germany story was a one-off and Sun is closer to the sun and/or sun is a communist.

    14. Re:Its a shame. by abhisri · · Score: 1

      Correction ...Sun is closer to Germany and/or sun is a communist.

    15. Re:Its a shame. by Skapare · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And, the utility is forced to buy the power from it's customers at the same rate they sell power to them ... which means they cannot recover distribution costs or make at least some profit. Electric distribution utilities need to be able to buy the power at a lower price than they sell it.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    16. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solar has a place in our energy mix. Solar also has its drawbacks, and its OK to talk about them. Or is it an outrage?

      Solar's best spot is peak market or off-grid. There should only be 2 policies

        1. solar sells at spot price
        2. solar and other non-CO2 producing power sources (hydro, wind, nuclear, "bio gas" etc.) get preference over carbon sources w.r.t. long term contract pricing vs. spot price.

      So if spot price goes below long term gas/coal/oil plant contracts, then non-CO2 take priority and there is a swap in pricing - CO2 gets lower spot price and non-CO2 get long-term-contract pricing with option to reduce output to 0 on the swapped out portion of the contract.

      Then we have a policy without favouritisms and self-interest. No short sighted "net metering", but a possibility of nil daytime CO2 emission - that would be a huge accomplishment in itself.

    17. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 0

      Are you making the common mistake of not including the cost of replacement generation to backup the solar and the costs of managing that generation profile?

    18. Re:Its a shame. by Skapare · · Score: 1

      I'm all for using solar power. BUT ... This needs to be done in a sane way. The electrical distribution network is NOT designed for taking power from customers that were expected to buy it, at a volume greater than some small percentage, measured separately in various branches of the distribution. This is especially so for small single phase branches. And it needs to accommodate paying for the maintenance of the distribution network with at least some profit for the company running it. The latter problem can be corrected with smart meters that calculate incoming vs. outgoing power separately so the outgoing (to the electrical network) can be paid at reduced rate (though not as low paid to the grid since on a small scale it is only using the local network to deliver power to others).

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    19. Re:Its a shame. by Khyber · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Facts are facts. Solar is clean, diverse, expensive and unreliable"

      You're absolutely wrong on the last two. The fucking sun rises and falls every day, that's goddamned reliable. Solar panels are so cheap that I could power my entire house (not including Air Conditioning) for $0.60/w or LOWER.

      "There is also a point where it causes problems for the grid that will require significant waste or expense to alleviate."

      What the hell are you talking about? Oh, you mean lower base loads? Guess what? To prevent the inrush of power, THE OWNER OF THE PANELS can install a very simple box to simply not give power back to the grid to avoid overloading it. The cost for this solution is about $5. What waste? All that solar we're not collecting and utilizing already? Give me a break.

      You don't know what the hell you're talking about, and half of your words are weasel words.

      ~Lighting research director

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    20. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The trick is not just producing a lot of power. The trick doing is doing it consistently, at low cost, and when you need it.

    21. Re:Its a shame. by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 1
      --
      All rites reversed 2010
    22. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      Actually, that you mentioned inrush as having anything to do with this debate proves to me you do not know what you are talking about.

      Go and make up a bill of material for a solid, working, code compliant solar PV solution for your home, or get a quote on one that does not discount financial incentives, so we have a true cost, and then come back with a real argument.

      I am surprised that you have not already installed such a cheap solution. What are you waiting for?

    23. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I love how you say it's the wealthier Americans. Have you driven thru the Indian Reservations on the way to Four Corners in Arizona? Tell me how many wealthy Americans have solar PV on their mobile home as you drive by. Almost every single one of them. Why pay APS, when I can invest a small bit now, and pay nothing forever? And why are there tax incentives? Ohh yeah, so we don't depend on big oil, remember? Nuclear? NIMBY, right? Global warming? By all means, let's fire up another natural gas power plant from frack'd gas. So in 10 years after that cheap gas is gone, now what? How many tax incentives does APS receive? PV isn't dependable? Really? Sun doesn't come up on your side of the planet? How much longer are you going to be driving a gas powered car? 5 years, 10 years, 15 years? What are you gonna charge it with? I've never seen anyone argue in favor how much they like paying for utilities. Nor how much they love paying for gasoline at the pump. Support the grid? I am supporting the grid, so company shills like you that don't use solar PV doesn't make APS build another plant and pass the savings to all of us. I'd rather not have APS fire up another reactor or build another plant based on growth. What APS is more worried about, and they should, is all the new houses that come with solar PV built in. Have you seen them on Sun Valley Parkway? This is all about APS not getting 100% of their perceived money, based on house count. What if every house had solar? Ohh shit! Imagine if you were charged for what you used, and were given credit for what you put back. Ohh wait, we are.

    24. Re:Its a shame. by khallow · · Score: 1

      And you are forced by law to buy his power.

      Not at all. You can always live off the grid.

    25. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop paying your electricity bill.
      I guarantee you won't be connected to the grid for very long.

    26. Re:Its a shame. by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

      The debate also has to encompass the cost of maintaining the transmission line infrastructure. Solar isn't this magic talisman that's going to furnish everyone's energy needs. Industrial energy needs are usually significantly higher than that of a house. What opponents of net-metering are worried about is the eventual death spiral where APS won't be able to afford to maintain the infrastructure. The question is: who sets the rates for energy purchase? Does the Corporation Commission decide what APS is going to pay homeowners or is it a true commodity? If it's the former, then the net outflow might exceed what they are able to charge non-generating customers plus the cost of maintaining the network.

    27. Re:Its a shame. by Old97 · · Score: 1
      Yes, the use of the term "ratepayer money" is prejudicial and inflammatory as well as misleading. That's pretty typical with Slashdot and almost every other source on the internet. However, the primary objection expressed is that APS lied. I, and others, object that APS, Exxon, Koch brothers and others astroturf their positions, i.e. they set up phoney "citizen" organizations and sites to push their views so people will not be aware of their financial interests in the debate's outcome. That's dishonest and does not contribute to honest open discussion and debate or to science. It's O.K. to promote a position that you benefit from - whether its financial or biological (like health), but it's not O.K. to use deceit to hide your motivations. What they are afraid of, I think, is that people will more closely examine their scientific methods and conclusions if they know you have a vested interest in a particular outcome.

      Just to be preemptive, advocates on any side of any position can have a vested interest in a particular outcome. We should always be skeptical.

      --
      Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
    28. Re:Its a shame. by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest, the outrage is simply the fact that the drawbacks of solar are being promulgated.

      That is not honest. My displeasure with this is that they are funding intentional misrepresentation of solar. If the objective of 60 Plus were a more informed electorate, I would have no problem with it. It is not. Their approach is to distort perception in favor of a given viewpoint, because they know that is more cost effective than developing objectively informed skepticism. The problem is the propaganda, not the information.

      Would these same politicians be outraged if this money went to a pro-solar entity?

      I think you don't live in Arizona. We don't have a whole lot of political appointees with left-wing axes to grind. Ones that do don't have very long careers 'round these parts. What we do have is a lot of cranky old folks who don't like corruption.

      In most cases, we could reduce environmental impact much more per dollar by investing in energy efficiency rather than solar.

      You say that as though we should be spending money there instead of solar. That is a false dichotomy. We already do invest in efficiency programs; Energy Star, insulation programs, CFL and now LED stimulus, and many more. Solar is another path to future energy solutions. Funding only efficiency would be as stupid as your false implication that we are only funding solar.

      Most residential solar units are installed by wealthier Americans who are taking advantage of huge tax incentives.

      Solar installs are expensive, and the only way to get close to cost effective is to do a large scale install. Most of the taxpayer subsidized installs are going in on schools, libraries, and other public facilities, not rich people's houses. It's even happening right here in El Mirage, a heavily blue collar area.

      Residential installs are happening here as well, though they are more common in wealthier neighborhoods. That is not because the rich are being targetted with huge tax incentives -- the tax incentives involved are a small portion of the total install cost. It is because the up-front cost of a solar install that is large enough to make sense is enormous. Economies of scale, not targeting of the rich, is what dictates that the people most able to foot the majority of the bill (with a small boost from tax incentives) to get us over the startup hurdles are the wealthy.

      Or, more succinctly: You are a shill. Bugger off.

    29. Re:Its a shame. by baffled · · Score: 1

      If we're going to play that game, then don't forget backup generation for the coal/gas plants. The electrical grid has its uses. Also, apparently that table doesn't include fuel costs, strangely enough.

    30. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is shame that APS feels the need to quietly support the dissemination of this information through indirect channels, and not be forthright about it when questioned.

      Is this seriously an issue? Just because no one ever talks about how solar cells only produce power during the day isn't some conspiracy, and whatever other challenges it faces I'm sure are being considered by engineers and investors alike. It sounds like you want to justify dissemination of information with FUD tactics because "[anti-solar] can't be discussed without being bashed by anti-everything groups".

    31. Re:Its a shame. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Then the city will condemn my house.

      I must have water and electric connection as well as some form of heat in the winter.

    32. Re:Its a shame. by cusco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Depends on local zoning. In some areas homes that are not connected to the power grid are considered 'uninhabitable', no matter how absurd that might be. That includes homes that are empty because the owners may be working overseas or who only occupy a vacation place a few months out of a year. My grandparents couldn't turn the electricity off to their house in Florida, even after they had definitively moved back to Michigan when she got sick, because they would not have been able to sell an 'uninhabitable' home for a fair market price.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    33. Re:Its a shame. by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then charge a distribution fee. The should buy and sell power at the same rate and only charge for infrastructure use.

      Utilities as they are monopolies the law forces me to buy from should not be for profit.

    34. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Correction ...Sun is closer to Germany and/or sun is a communist.

      And now you know the real reason for German reunification. To get that commie Sun from East Germany!

    35. Re:Its a shame. by khallow · · Score: 2

      It sounds like you may have agreed to limit your choices by living where you do.

    36. Re:Its a shame. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      Then charge a distribution fee.

      You haven't looked at your electric bill, have you? Here in PA, where we have electric choice, you can choose your electricity provider to get the best rate, BUT your electric company still charges you for distributing that power.

      Those costs usually represent almost half your total bill.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    37. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      the tax incentives involved are a small portion of the total install cost.

      Solar Investment Tax Credit (ITC) = 30% of total cost. No small portion by any means.

    38. Re:Its a shame. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I have, and I fail to see how this is not a solution to the problem at hand.

      I assumed AZ did not have such a fee if this was an issue for them.

    39. Re:Its a shame. by Entropius · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This isn't a natural limit, it's one imposed by the law. Saying "Well, you can just move somewhere else" is never a justification for shitty laws.

    40. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, those numbers are really hard to use to make a point because it is not clear exactly how they handle all those surrounding parameters. Are they generator lead costs or breaker costs? Are they average, best case, or worst case? Solar PV cost/MW varies widely by location, with higher costs at higher latitudes due to reduced effective solar exposure time. Fossil & nuclear costs a bit more in warmer latitudes due to cycle efficiency loss. Solar is clearly trending down in cost, that can be readily understood.

    41. Re:Its a shame. by cusco · · Score: 1

      That's Arizona. The sun is probably more consistent there than pretty much anywhere else on the continent. The need for electricity peaks during the daylight hours, when air conditioning usage is high. So yeah, they're doing it right.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    42. Re: Its a shame. by apc512599 · · Score: 1

      Why is the Soviet Sun always smiling in the morning? Because by evening it will be in the West.

    43. Re:Its a shame. by jd.schmidt · · Score: 1

      It is an outrage, and possibly a crime.

      Utilities are monopolies and thus government regulated. Because everyone must purchase services from the utility, they have very stringent ethics rules of necessity. And trust me, if they HAD been contributing to liberal causes, politicians, especially conservative ones, would have been beside themselves with outrage.

      As for solar power itself, power utilities donâ(TM)t like them because they reduce utility profits, period. There is no real science behind their dislike. As for the specifics of the propaganda against solar power, maybe it was accurate, maybe not I suppose we would have to see it first. But if money is being sent secretly and lied about, on the face of it I am unsure how much I would trust such information.

    44. Re:Its a shame. by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      I find it amazing that some of the same folks who complain about the very wealthy are so willing to give them money in this manner.

      I'm always on here lambasting the ultra-rich, but this is just disingenuous. While it's true that you won't see poor people putting solar panels on their house (mainly because they don't have a house), you don't have to be "very wealthy" by any reasonable person's measure to afford a PV installation. My parents have panels on their house, and they immigrated to this country with no money and no English, didn't have any higher education, worked clerical and truck driving jobs, and didn't win the lottery. They're nowhere near upper middle class, let alone "very wealthy" by American standards.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    45. Re:Its a shame. by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

      And the individual is forced to buy the power from the utility at the same rate they sell power to them ... which means they cannot recover distribution costs or make at least some profit. Individuals need to be able to buy the power at a lower price than they sell it.

      Why is it that utilities "need to be able to" profit, but not individuals?

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    46. Re:Its a shame. by number17 · · Score: 2

      get a quote on one that does not discount financial incentives

      When asking for such a request you should also provide your own quote for non-subsidized fossil fuel without subsidies. My source for Ontario says residential pricing would increase 35%:
      http://www.cleanairalliance.org/files/active/0/taxshift.pdf

      The total dollar value of Table 1’s four remaining taxpayer financed subsidies for grid-supplied electricity is $4.785 billion per year. If these subsidies were to be immediately eliminated, electricity rates would rise by approximately 35%.

    47. Re:Its a shame. by cusco · · Score: 1

      Are you making the even more common mistake of not including the environmental/health/disposal costs for the non-solar generation profile?

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    48. Re:Its a shame. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Sorry, no. If you can't stand up and own up to your convictions, you should rethink your position. That has always been the case.

    49. Re:Its a shame. by sjames · · Score: 1

      You know the Germans always make good stuff.

    50. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not a counterargument. You just used the childish stance of "What you said was not good enough for me, so I will ignore it unless you do orders of magnitude more due diligence than I am willing to do."

      With an attitude like that, I fully expect for you to ignore any and all evidence contrary to your position and continue to use fallacies of incomplete evidence, equivocation, ad hominem, and ex post facto reasoning. Half of your words really are weasel words, same as your faulty logic.

    51. Re:Its a shame. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Go and make up a bill of material for a solid, working, code compliant solar PV solution for your home, or get a quote on one that does not discount financial incentives, so we have a true cost, and then come back with a real argument. "

      Already have, it's what runs my research facility. Not my home. I don't pay electricity bills (nor water, gas, or sewage,) that's included in the set monthly.

      And it didn't cost much at all to fit the research facility.

      Oh, and I do this internationally (that's my UK facility. I have one in Australia one here in the USA, and one in Morocco.) I know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm globally licensed. Are you? No? Thought so.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    52. Re:Its a shame. by evilviper · · Score: 1, Insightful

      To be fair, Republicans fully support small-business owners

      Even with your list of exceptions... still no.

      Republicans give lip service to supporting small business owners, because the fascist things they want to do to funnel money to big businesses, can be disguised as possibly helping a few small businesses slightly, while big businesses get billions out of it. It's just a cover, and they have no intention of helping them out, at all.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    53. Re:Its a shame. by Khyber · · Score: 1

      " reduce those numbers to likely engineering numbers of 20% efficiency, 600W incident solar radiation per square meter,"

      Well, your math is already off because 600w isn't 80% of solar insolation at 1000w.

      "6-8 hours of direct sun per day "

      Again, well off your 20% mark. 9.6 hours is 80% of 12 hours.

      "1000W incident solar radiation per square meter (also wildly optimistic)"

      That's TYPICAL AT NOON. Not even close to wildly optimistic, and includes atmospheric filtering but does not include cloud cover or lat/long. In many places, that level of insolation can be sustained starting about 9AM-4PM - 7 hours. The rest of the daylight hours would make up easily for the lower levels of light.

      "Assume 40% efficiency (wildly optimistic)"

      25% efficiency cells are quite commonplace now, and those were commercial-only due to price until about a decade ago. 40% shouldn't be that far off from now, given the recent leaps we've had in semiconductor manufacturing and research.

      Are you going to keep spouting off nonsense or are you actually going to pay attention to studies we did almost two decades ago that showed a couple of Arizona-sized solar plants with today's technology could power the world (excepting vehicles.)

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    54. Re:Its a shame. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      The view from Arizona: The debate is not over the efficacy of solar, but about APS buying excess power that residential solar installations already generate. The utility wants to install smart meters, which would give them control over major appliances as well as making it easier to account for power generated by small users. If APS wants its smart meters, it should be buying our generated power as part of the bargain.

    55. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bet on Solar!

    56. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their participation would have been challenged on different grounds, they could have addressed that with an open and honest rebuttal, or let the facts speak for themselves, but instead they chose to attempt to hide their involvement.

      It's fine to be anonymous sometimes, but there are other times where being anonymous will be taken as an attempt to hide your agenda from public scrutiny.

    57. Re:Its a shame. by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      It's very impressive that you can discern someone's political leanings from their stance on a fundamentally mathematical question of how to best manage the power grid.

      Just looking at this without doing any deep research, I have to ask what compensation is APS going to receive for peaking power plants they presumably have installed to accommodate peak demands which will no longer be fully utilized ? Should the general population have to pay higher rates because a small percentage wanted to go solar ?

    58. Re:Its a shame. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter; "Unabomber option" still exists, therefore Libertarians are satisfied.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    59. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Those costs are included for nuclear, at least to the extent practicable, probably not so much for coal or gas, for those I really don't know. Just more confusion that makes it hard to use those numbers at face value or without specific context. But since solar is shut down a majority of the time, that becomes a huge factor in how it is integrates and those costs are unique to solar and wind. Fossil and nuclear also shut down, but that is typically on the order of 5% of the time and can be scheduled in spring and fall so there is minimal impact on the grid.

      Like I said, solar has a place in the generation mix, it just has to be managed and phased in smartly, as other energy sources are adjusted as well.

    60. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bet on Solar in a Free Market!

    61. Re:Its a shame. by Skapare · · Score: 2

      It can be part of the solution. But it also means the meters have to be changed, and people will get less money for the electricity they push into the network, or have to pay the distribution cost based on how much they push. And yes, generation cost and distribution cost is near 50/50. The old analog meters cannot do it, but most will just run backwards when power is pushed out (negative current/voltage ratio).

      On a small scale, the solar feedback is not much of a deal because the power pushed out by one home would be used by the home across the street. But on a large scale in places like Arizona, entire neighborhoods could become sources of power, and that can have technical impacts on the core electric distribution network. For example many 3-phase transformers are the "delta-wye" type under the assumption of power going in one direction. Reversing the power through such a transformer creates many new complications. They would have to replace these with "wye-wye" transformers (which would require some other changes as well, adding cost).

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    62. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, Republicans fully support small-business owners, unless they interfere with big business, or Conservative moral/social agendas, or a politician's chances of getting re-elected, or those people have anything to do with minorities, women, reproductive rights, sexual orientation ... Wait, what was I talking about again?

      At first I thought you were being sarcastic, but upon re-reading, I think you were serious.

      Truly, unintentional self-parody does provide some of the most insightful humor.

    63. Re:Its a shame. by mythosaz · · Score: 2

      You'd think - but that's not true.

      Electricity usage peaks in the early evening when people get home and crank down their air conditioners, right around the time when solar stops being effective.

    64. Re:Its a shame. by mythosaz · · Score: 2

      Solana, the newly opened solar/salt power plant here in Arizona, will produce 5% of our power and takes up NOWHERE near 5% of our available land.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solana_Generating_Station
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Arizona

    65. Re:Its a shame. by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      We don't have a NIMBY problem with nuclear. We've got one of the biggest plans in the country right outside town and we love it.

    66. Re:Its a shame. by Outta_the_way_peck! · · Score: 1

      I'm not living in my house right now after it was flooded, but still have the electric service on so I can work on it. My bills lately have been $15 worth of service/distribution charges and $2 for the actually electricity.

    67. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know the Germans always make good stuff.

      Kudos for subtly introducing Sham WOW!!! into a enviro-religious argument sparked by a conspiracy heavy article published by the Huffington Post which demonizes a heavily-regulated utility company based on statements by a govt regulator fishing for information that could be used to undercut the political activity of the utility company that is attempting to have input into the very political process that puts its every business decision under a microscope. Kudos also to HuffPo for interjecting the Koch bros into the conversation and for reducing the discussion to nothing more than soundbites suggesting that the only issue involved is the effort by an "evil" company to thwart the inevitable march of society towards a glorious, clean solar future.

    68. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd think - but that's not true.

      Electricity usage peaks in the early evening when people get home and crank down their air conditioners, right around the time when solar stops being effective.

      So what's the problem for the utility then? If this is the case they will still be providing the power for peak usage times.

    69. Re:Its a shame. by khallow · · Score: 1

      This isn't a natural limit, it's one imposed by the law.

      And your own decisions.

    70. Re:Its a shame. by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      I believe their major beef with RESIDENTIAL SOLAR it is that they're buying non-peak solar from home installations, and then providing peak grid to them -- which means they need to continue to engineer for peak, and don't get much in return from non-peak solar, except they probably get to burn a little less coal/gas during the day.

    71. Re:Its a shame. by Xyrus · · Score: 1

      Imagine the nerve of suggesting that people might not only live off the grid, they could invest their money in a means of production and then sell that product!

      In other words, people with excess solar capacity are small-business owners.

      To be fair, Republicans fully support small-business owners, unless they interfere with big business, or Conservative moral/social agendas, or a politician's chances of getting re-elected, or those people have anything to do with minorities, women, reproductive rights, sexual orientation ... Wait, what was I talking about again?

      Something about republicans being something along the lines of riding a mountain bike on bumpy terrain without a seat.

      --
      ~X~
    72. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just want to point out that your average house uses quite a few Watts. A 'normal' lightbulb is 60W. The equivalent CFL is roughly 12W.

      So, powering that single lightbulb with solar has a cost of ~$36 or $7.20 for the CFL. The typical house has several of those running at any given time (more so at night), requiring banks of batteries (or some other medium) to store usable power when the sun isn't shining (eg: at night). God forbid you want to heat some water, keep your food cold, or wash a load of laundry.

      That power storage medium isn't included in your$0.60/W cost. Nor does your cost include other factors which make solar *less* effective. The solar installation for a normal house that is at least *theoretically* able to be 'off the grid' runs about $10,000.

      I find it interesting that you think your Air Conditioner changes the price per Watt of your hypothetical solar solution. Does your AC run on unicorn farts or something?

    73. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. You *really* didn't understand a single thing from his post.

    74. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Electric use is overwhelmingly driven by business uses during business hours. Residential use of air conditioning when people get home is a big demand, but it's offset by all those buildings they worked in all day going dark for the evening.

    75. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " reduce those numbers to likely engineering numbers of 20% efficiency, 600W incident solar radiation per square meter," Well, your math is already off because 600w isn't 80% of solar insolation at 1000w.

      Hey Khyber, you big dummy, efficiency and incident power are independent inputs to the calculation. Also, insolation is a measure of energy and W are units of power, you double big dummy.

      That's TYPICAL AT NOON. Not even close to wildly optimistic, and includes atmospheric filtering but does not include cloud cover or lat/long.

      Hey Khyber, you dummy, those caveats are pretty damn important unless you are planning on putting solar panels in orbit which may add somewhat to the capital costs.

      25% efficiency cells are quite commonplace now, and those were commercial-only due to price until about a decade ago. 40% shouldn't be that far off from now, given the recent leaps

      Hey Khyber, you dummy, there are physical limitations to every tech. You cannot assume a steady march to perfection. If you could, then the internal combustion engine would be 100% efficient by now.

      a couple of Arizona-sized solar plants with today's technology could power the world

      Oh, well no big deal then. All we have to do is place a couple of Arizona-sized solar energy capture systems outside the atmosphere and then transmit and distribute that energy to every place in the world that needs it. But, why stop there? Why not build a Dyson sphere or create a mini-blackhole and use its captured and controlled energy to power that big dildo that you had implanted in your ear, the vibrations of which have scrambled your brains, you big dummy.

    76. Re:Its a shame. by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Usage patterns like those you describe hold for milder climates like the New England and Northern Europe. For sunnier climes the peak occurs in the middle of the day when the temperature goes up and ACs work overtime. As well, one could program the residential ACs to come on around noon and lower tto 50-60F by 4pm.

      By the time people come home it would be back up to around 70F with no further demands at night since temperature drops rapidly past 5pm in Winter. In the summer this is not a problem since sunset is later which allows home ACs to run for an extra hour or two on solar.

    77. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they are making so much money that they can do this then we should be getting a reduction in our bills. I don't mind them making a little profit but so much profit that they can kill off other industries is complete bullshit for lack of a better term. Actually, no! That is the best term to describe this. Complete fucking bullshit!

    78. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I don't see any actual costs listed in your response. Interesting video though. Are you using solar power to make all that light?

    79. Re:Its a shame. by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Hmm ?
      So that would apply to Abolitionists in the antebellum south ?
      Etc Etc Etc.

      What your statement reduces to is if you are not in the majority you should knuckle under. More or less, in our day and age that effectively cedes arbitration of all issues to the mass media and the people who control them.

    80. Re:Its a shame. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      ..or far left wing groups.

    81. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cannot turn off the electricity to my home without having it condemned.

      You seriously don't know how to flip a switch? Maybe you shouldn't be owning a home then...

    82. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since the cost per watt is more expensive with solar compared to other forms of energy it sounds like you should be thanking the Republicans for attempting to protect the consumer from the green lobby. Oh and BTW, the Green lobby works against the independence of the populace to reduce their freedom to choose which energy source they want.

    83. Re:Its a shame. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Don't evade. Acknowledge the fact it's a shitty law.

    84. Re:Its a shame. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Even if you turn off the breaker you still pay to have service. Maybe you should read your bill one time.

    85. Re:Its a shame. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      I suppose liberals are communists then?

    86. Re:Its a shame. by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Which are?
      Really I can't wait to hear this.
      The far left in the USA like the wobblies were marginalized a long long time ago.

    87. Re:Its a shame. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      You guys lack reading comprehension. Then he gets evicted from his 'condemned' home. This is an artificial consequence placed on him by the local authorities, not a natural one.

    88. Re:Its a shame. by sjames · · Score: 1

      How do you figure. Can you point to any abolitionists that hired a PR firm on the down low to advocate for their belief?

      That is quite different from those who chose to remain quiet and act for what they believed right or the more daring ones who chose to speak and act.

    89. Re:Its a shame. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      To be fair, democrats fully support living as well as one can from what was earned, except when social lobbies need more money and enforcement, because denying unbridled access to these means society hates minorities, women, reproductive rights, or homosexual orientation. What, what was I talking about again?

    90. Re:Its a shame. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Something about republicans being something along the lines of riding a mountain bike on bumpy terrain without a seat.

      To continue that analogy, stand-riding is perfectly acceptable, even preferable in those circumstances.. Not every road in life is a well paved, graded, and limited-access superhighway that makes all your (life) travel decisions for you. There is more to life than safety and convenience.

    91. Re:Its a shame. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      At first I thought you misunderstood what I meant by "Unabomber option" but then I realized the mistake is mine - khallow is arguing for fascism, not libertarianism. I suppose that's what you were trying to point out by analogy.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    92. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I support black's/gay's/women's rights.

      But due to circumstances, it is wiser for me to anonymously go about promoting such a position.

      Sorry, no. Sometimes it is not the case that the position you are anonymously promoting should be re-thought. Or am I misunderstanding you?

      *This of course is completely beside my feelings on TFA. I am merely arguing against your "it is always so" claim.

    93. Re:Its a shame. by sjames · · Score: 1

      So you believe the power company is in physical danger simply for uttering a word against solar power?

    94. Re:Its a shame. by suutar · · Score: 1

      Not having to build new peaking plants to handle growth in demand for a while?

    95. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both on and off peak are kept track of on your bill, and credits accumulate for both (if any) just like cell phone minutes.

    96. Re:Its a shame. by chihowa · · Score: 1

      So the utilities agreed to limit their choices by operating where they do.

      Are you seriously saying that the law requiring utilities to buy back power from solar installations is a horrible breach of the free market but that the law requiring residents to do business with a company is just poor choice?

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    97. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Utilities are monopolies and thus government regulated.

      You are confused. Electrical utility companies are monopolies because the govt passed laws to define them as monopolies. They aren't regulated because they are monopolies. It would be cool to know how much money was paid under the table to "buy" a monopoly for a utility company back in the day.

      And trust me, if they HAD been contributing to ...

      Govt protected monopolies are political animals by their very nature. Corruption is automatically associated with them; partisanship and ideology are secondary to the fact that they are govt defined monopolies.

      As for solar power itself, power utilities donâ(TM)t like them because they reduce utility profits, period.

      Thanks for implicitly acknowledging that solar energy generation is inherently less economical than generation by traditional means.

      I am unsure how much I would trust such information.

      I know I don't trust the opinions of someone who speaks of companies and profits as things that are distasteful.

    98. Re:Its a shame. by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Here in Oregon I pay more for delivery than for the electricity, and that is with a high quality public utility.

      These anti-renewable PR campaigns are the only thing keeping most Americans from paying less for their power. Won't really change the delivery cost, though.

    99. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What part of "This of course is completely beside my feelings on TFA. I am merely arguing against your "it is always so" claim." confused you?

      I am not commenting about power companies and solar power. The only thing I am commenting on is your assertion that being anonymous somehow always proves that there is something "wrong" with the position of the anonymous person.

    100. Re:Its a shame. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Those are all concerns that can be addressed by engineers, accountants, and actuaries meeting with the utility commission. The fact that they secretly engaged in a PR smear campaign instead should indicate that perhaps the factual concerns are without merit, and home and small business power generation actually reduces the strain the infrastructure.

      Here in Oregon we have mostly a mix of a non-profit and public utilities, with very permissive generation rules. There are no State regulatory requirements, such as professional install. Those requirements add thousands of dollars to the cost... of professional installs! LOL My utility only requires you to have an approved inverter installed. That protects their infrastructure. And they don't require a fancy expensive one, the cheapest approved model is only about $750. The whole thing saves them money. A public utility, which doesn't make money, and can't make money, just loves it. It slows down the growth pressures on the infrastructure, because the power you feed into the grid goes directly to the people in your neighborhood who are drawing power at that time. So less power is being moved around between their sub-stations.

      And since most cities are growing, that means less future infrastructure upgrades are needed. And regardless, the compensation rate is always lower than the retail rate. And for the reasons I mentioned, it is rarely transported. The power goes right to your neighbor with no work from the utility, the utility charges your neighbor retail, and pays you wholesale. So even in the extreme, unrealistic, silly case where 100% of the power is generated from utility customers, the utility would have very little distance transmission, and would have the whole delivery percentage.

      So without looking at the exact numbers in their case, I think it is safe to say that the system of home generation is viable at any scale, and any legit concerns about exact rates should be left to engineers and actuaries.

    101. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hawaii had an issue with just this problem. To many people have apparently converted to solar and are selling back. During peak times, the people selling back run the risk of overloading the grid and causing damage which leaves everyone with no lights after dark. The problem is the old equipment needs to be updated but that of course cost money.

    102. Re:Its a shame. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The term "ratepayer money" is not prejudicial, inflammatory, or misleading. In most States there are laws or rules against using the ratepayer money to lobby the government for rules changes. Because of the local monopoly implied by ownership of transmission lines, utilities have a tendency towards excessive power. It is the job of the utility commission to balance that power for the interests of the customers. Nonprofit and public utilities generally have a positive, cooperative relationship with the utility commissions, whereas with a for-profit utility the commission is often placed in the position of being the only party who can advocate for the customer.

      Because of all that, there are accounting rules that define very precisely which money has which label. So if a company wants to increase their rates, they show that they have a real need, based on those accounting labels. If in fact they were siphoning off ratepayer money and using it to lobby the commission with a PR campaign, and pretending it was expenses, that has a real (and fraudulent) impact on all the rest of their regulator filings.

    103. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The general population will need to pay enough to keep the energy company running. If enough invest their own money into going solar, why should they be penalized for this? If that were the case, I'd likely spend the extra on a stand alone system.

      There really is no reason for me to try and be as independent as possible if other people are going to insist on voting their ways into my pocket book when I've done my best to limit taking from the public commons.

    104. Re:Its a shame. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      No, only the for-profit utilities. Non-profit and public utilities love it!

      I hope the for-profits keep up these shenanigans, in the end it will mean more people wise up and start a Public utility. All you need to make it work is voters that are smart enough to elect retired engineers to the Board/Commission.

    105. Re:Its a shame. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      In most places you can actually get a permit to install your own power delivery infrastructure, if you want. The reason utilities are monopolies is that it rarely makes sense to install redundant infrastructure. It only makes economic sense to install it in places where it isn't already available. In many cases the government paid to have it extended to everybody, and so the companies that were already delivering power to adjacent areas got that subsidy.

      So it is nothing at all like a New York hot dog permit!

    106. Re:Its a shame. by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      The hottest part of the day runs around 4pm in the summer here, and the mid-afternoon temperatures can last well into the evenings.

      http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KPHX/2013/7/1/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

      Overnight lows near 100 aren't uncommon.

    107. Re:Its a shame. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Well, on the specific point of smart meters, I propose that the controversy stems mostly from APS wanting to install sucky smart meters, if indeed these meters can control appliances!

      I've got a public utility that loves home generated power. All you need is an approved inverter (you need one anyways, and they are part of all the kits/installations)... and a smart meter. The old meters are simply one-way, they can't do it. You absolutely are going to need a meter that was designed to measure in both directions. It is unrealistic to think that people are going to support a whole new generation of inaccurate analog meters for this, when for digital meters it is a simple and easy feature.

      Here, right now you have to buy the smart meter to participate. In a couple years after they roll out the smart meter to everybody, you won't. (the full roll-out will be paid through increased rates)

      People here are whining even about the wifi in the smart meter. That's great, I'd rather it have an ethernet plug, but good luck finding the same person who is against smart meter wifi, and FOR universal cheap ethernet from the utility (which puts them in a position to read the meter remotely even if you don't have residential internet)

      I hope APS makes more big blunders, over-playing their hand in response to the wacky fringe, and making themselves look foolish and backwards to the educated. It will mean more public utilities in the long run.

    108. Re:Its a shame. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      While you may indeed know what you're talking about, you shouldn't use licensing as proof. These days, it's just a way for the government to pick the winners.

    109. Re: Its a shame. by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      I wish I could find someone competent in my area to design a system! The only one I've found so far was fly by night, extremely overpriced, and *I* had to inform them of mount options that they were unaware of :-( I have a friend in Texas with a system who's bills have dropped to near zero with his modest system - ac blasting all the while.

      The idea that solar is "unreliable" is laughable. The cost is dropping and efficiencies going up with each new generation of panels. To see someone argue against it is pretty amusing. Frankly I'd be okay selling back at a lower level to help support the distro costs of the grid. I also find the argument that peak times for use aren't during the day amusing since anyone buying power at rates that vary, say those with GM Volt, find that they pay the lowest rates at night - apparently not so peak usage after all then...

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    110. Re:Its a shame. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      "Facts are facts. Solar is clean, diverse, expensive and unreliable"

      You're absolutely wrong on the last two. The fucking sun rises and falls every day, that's goddamned reliable.

      No, that is predicable. Reliable is when something is there and works whenever you need it. Predictable is being able to know when it is available. Solar power is only available for several hours a day, but we need power the entire day, so therefore it is not reliable. It is predictable, but only to an extent, as we can't predict when a cloud will pass over, or what the output will be next week. Solar is much more predicable than wind, and more reliable as well, I'll give it that.

    111. Re:Its a shame. by Old97 · · Score: 1

      There is nothing in the post that provides any indication much less evidence that the money spent on this by APS came from anything that was in violation of the terms of their monopoly and rates. So unless you have special inside information you are not sharing, you've just proved the point that the term "ratepayer money" used in the summation is prejudicial and inflammatory. In the meantime you can share with me a justified outrage about their admitted lying.

      --
      Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
    112. Re:Its a shame. by gmanterry · · Score: 1

      Then charge a distribution fee. The should buy and sell power at the same rate and only charge for infrastructure use.

      Utilities as they are monopolies the law forces me to buy from should not be for profit.

      Not so. APS is one of the owners of the Palo Verde power plant, the largest nuclear plant in the U.S. That plant, for instance, has fixed costs to run no matter what level they are generating at. It is like when during the gasoline shortage that the States had to raise the taxes on gasoline because the lower income from reduced gas sales didn't cover the costs to maintain the roads. If electricity is supplied from outside, APS, Salt River, etc all still have to pay the costs of running and maintaining Palo Verde. If they can't get the costs from selling the power they generate, they will have to raise rates on their customers to cover that shortfall. I get my electricity from APS and for the record, I am also a retired APS employee. If all the power was generated by someone other than APS you would still have to pay APS to for the maintenance costs of their distribution system, expansion of that system for new houses built in their area, reading your meter and providing a billing mechanism. Capitalism doesn't work when there is one wire, or one pipe coming to your home. We pay for that service, water, landline telephone, sewer and Internet and hope the folks we elected to the Corporation Commission will have our best interests at heart and not let those utilities abuse us. Solar users are pumping their excess power into APS' grid and should have to pay their fair share of the cost to maintain it. It's not up to us non solar customers to subsidize it. This is my personal opinion not APS'.

      --
      Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
    113. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya it's a shame that you don't want this. Do you even realize how easy it is to block that energy from ever hitting the grid. And if it's privately handled then we don't have to pay for maintenance or failures. In face it costs money to get your equipment certified to allow distribution back onto the grid. So what your effectively saying is that you don't want people compensated for going through all that trouble. That means you want little to no incentive for them to use their equipment for public benefit, even if they have a lot of excess.
      I would not expect you to receive the same rates that they charge, after all they are making no guarantees to their customers that you will be an always on provider, they are not responsible if your equipment fails, nor do they hold you responsible if your equipment fails (unless it somehow damages their systems or equipment.) In fact if you receive half what they charge you, I would consider that being generous, requiring a near 100% charge reversal is upserd.
      I do think you should receive something as you are helping them handle their load, especially in summer when solar is plentiful and energy is in high demand. If for no other reason then the simple fact they are using your equipment on your land, something they would need to have paid for otherwise. I also feel that the cost savings should be passed onto their customers. In such an environment everyone benefits, and would encourage more people to invest in solar for their homes. Ideally this would result in service users providing 100% or greater of energy needs, eliminating the need for fossil fuels in most areas. Transforming company's like APS into merely energy management companies, rather than an energy provider. (Of course going over 100% would result in the monetary compensation that an individual would be receiving for providing solar in this way being reduced.)

      However, I am saddened by the argument of Fair Share. This is like saying they expect solar customers to pay them, even though they are not using their resources. If they feel this charge is truly necessary then Fair Share is a stupid argument. State the costs that APS has to incur because of solar customers, if there are none, then there is no reason to increase rates. Solar cells are expensive, and it takes years to recoup the costs via savings on electric bills, they paid their Fair Share that way, even with government grants and programs they are still expensive, if that weren't the case then they wouldn't be a thing for the rich, everyone would have them. The idea of Fair Share in this context is a socialist concept, where even if you work harder you should still receive the same benefits as everyone else. All I can say to this is that somewhere in the line someone is either loosing money to solar, or they are have found an unethical way to make money off solar. The problem is there, find it, isolate it, and fix it there.

    114. Re:Its a shame. by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      The thing is that Arizona is right in the part of the USA that is among the best places on Earth for solar power generation, period. There are enough sunny days in much of Arizona where large scale solar power projects are actually financially viable.

    115. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, what was I talking about again?

      I have no idea. It seems you got caught up in partisan bickering, the major underlying reason for most of the problems in the US as of late. You're part of the problem. You probably don't understand that you are. And that makes it worse. Do try to wake up.

    116. Re:Its a shame. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine the nerve of suggesting that people might not only live off the grid, they could invest their money in a means of production and then sell that product!

      In other words, people with excess solar capacity are small-business owners.

      To be fair, Republicans fully support small-business owners, unless they interfere with big business, or Conservative moral/social agendas, or a politician's chances of getting re-elected, or those people have anything to do with minorities, women, reproductive rights, sexual orientation ... Wait, what was I talking about again?

      Something about republicans being something along the lines of riding a mountain bike on bumpy terrain without a seat.

      Voting Republican is like buying a mountain bike without a seat. It's a viable option to save a pittance in the best of possible conditions, but a pain in the ass if there's ever a bump in the road.

    117. Re:Its a shame. by volmtech · · Score: 1

      The minimum charge is about $10 a month. Just auto pay the bill. I live in Florida and that is what FPL charged for each of irrigation pumps I didn't run for six months a year. A residential connection may have a higher minimum.

    118. Re:Its a shame. by gmanterry · · Score: 1

      This is not the law in Arizona, where APS (Arizona Public Service) is. If you, for example don't pay your electric bill, after a couple of months APS will cut your service but that's all. The State does not become involved unless there is a safety issue for children or others.

      --
      Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
  2. Arizona Public Service is misnamed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's just the name of a subsidiary of Pinnacle West Capital Corporation, not an actual Public Utility concern.

    1. Re:Arizona Public Service is misnamed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      APS really stands for Arizona Perjury Service: we'll lie about anything, just ask us!

  3. But, But ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " ... and that changing it could have a huge negative impact on future growth."

    But all these "renewable energy fools" are having a negative impact on APS's ability to enforce their monopoly and control the future of energy in the state.

    Won't someone think of the utilities?

    1. Re:But, But ... by Skapare · · Score: 0

      I do. The can't make a profit when buying power at the same rate as selling it. AND they can't maintain the electrical distribution network without any difference in those rates. Sure, it's a big corporation that wants a monopoly and control of the prices. But the "buy customer's solar production" concept needs to involve selling power to the utility at a rate that allows for distribution and maintenance costs to be covered with at least a reasonable profit from that.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:But, But ... by sjames · · Score: 1

      I don't live in Arizona, so I don't know their exact setup, but in general you pay a monthly flat fee for being connected to the grid and then you pay more on top of that for the actual power you use. The flat fee includes (for hysterical raisins) enough to have a meter reader show up once a month in person to read the meter among other things. Those costs have gone way down with smart meters and such.

      If enough people do enough net metering that the power company is actually feeling a pinch their public service commission (whatever they call it in Az) can/will address the issue. However, apparently they are unable to put together a report containing hard numbers showing that maintaining the grid has become unprofitable so rather than approach the commission, they spend money buying astroturf FUD.

  4. Solar energy? In Arizona? by themushroom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, let's run a smear campaign against not only one of the cleanest forms of energy available, but the source most plentiful and free in that particular state. A utility should be getting onboard, not trying to harpoon something that could benefit them.

    1. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      "most plentiful and free in that particular state"

      Except, perhaps, at night. See, there is one of the problems; Solar make sense when it;s available, but not when it isn't. Arizona is blessed with largely cloudless days, but the nights include half the peak demand, and so some other sources are needed alongside solar.

      And yes, this did seem like a troll right up the point where you are encouraged to look back at the solar claims; clean, available. Either of these have debatable points.

      Not that I care much for APS or SRP, as a customer of both I'd rather see them play fair, but no one is playing fair in this. NO ONE.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    2. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nobody is saying Arizona should go 100% solar power, but solar reaches peak power output during midday, which is also the same time of day Arizona has peak power usage due to air conditioning.

      In addition, you are forgetting about solar-thermal plants, which do provide some residual power output after the sun sets.

    3. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Solar thermal can run at night just fine.

      If night is half the demand of the daytime then you could have half your power via solar voltaics.

    4. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, great! So let's go with a documented dirty energy source then, right?
      Notice that you are commenting on an article about fuck-stupid lobbying against something good.

    5. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Except, perhaps, at night.

      And this is a problem with the buyback programs: The utility is expected to bear the cost of storing off peak power.

      The solution might be to separate energy and system infrastructure costs. And then assess a power storage charge against the solar installations (that don't have batteries plus smart grid coordination) for the power that they deliver when it can't be used.

      Solar energy could then incorporate intermediaries who could buy, store and sell energy on the grid to match demand.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    6. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

      There are tons of clean ways to do solar energy in a place like Arizona that provide power in off peak times, you don't have to be anywhere near as efficient when you're in a desert.

      The most obvious, even to a layman, is steam. Is this so hard to understand that you'd rather burn oil and coal.

      *sigh*... Humanity...

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    7. Re: Solar energy? In Arizona? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Midday is not the only peak demand.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    8. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      "most plentiful and free in that particular state"

      Except, perhaps, at night. See, there is one of the problems; Solar make sense when it;s available, but not when it isn't. Arizona is blessed with largely cloudless days, but the nights include half the peak demand, and so some other sources are needed alongside solar.

      And yes, this did seem like a troll right up the point where you are encouraged to look back at the solar claims; clean, available. Either of these have debatable points.

      Not that I care much for APS or SRP, as a customer of both I'd rather see them play fair, but no one is playing fair in this. NO ONE.

      I am so very tired of the lame old oil-sucker counter to solar power.

      I don't get my electricity from an oil company, I get it from an electric company. My local utility has the ability to generate power from about 4 different sources, depending on which ones are most economical at the time.

      If Arizona wants to get its some or all of its peak-demand (daytime) power from solar and revert to hamster-powered treadmills when the sun isn't available, what of it? If they can build smaller fossil-fuel plants or buy power from the interstate grid, fine. They can import it from Philadelphia. I hear it's always sunny there.

    9. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except, perhaps, at night. See, there is one of the problems; Solar make sense when it;s available, but not when it isn't.

      You can't be serious, can you? You never heard of storing energy in batteries?

    10. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by Wookact · · Score: 1

      Why store it? They should produce less power using natural gas during the day, and then ramp it back up to needed levels as the sun goes down. Easy solution.

    11. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe the utility is harpooning solar power, I believe it is harpooning the Net Energy Metering (NEM) program which pays Solar customers retail rate. For most cases the utility retail rate includes operational and maintenance costs of the grid infrastructure, cost of fuel, worker salaries, etc. With NEM the utility is paying the customer retail rate for just the fuel/energy and not the remaining items that make up the needed mix to maintain a stable and reliable grid. The Net Energy Metering program makes solar the most expensive fuel instead of what solar was intended to be, a "free" source of energy.

    12. Re: Solar energy? In Arizona? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      And batteries are part of most solar installations?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    13. Re: Solar energy? In Arizona? by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      The issue is that the utilities are being coerced into buying back excess subscriber solar production, not that they could or not engage in their own production.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    14. Re: Solar energy? In Arizona? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Nope. It's just harder to DO than just running a gas plant.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    15. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The life cycle of turbines decreases as you turn them off and on. Typically the turbines can be cycled off and on about 300 times before they need to be replaced (Millions of dollars spread to the rate payers). To better understand this, think of the expansion and compression from the thermal changes of the turbines. Another thing to consider is most grid tied solar inverters depend on the grid's frequency in order to run. In other words power has to come from a conventional machine in order for the PV inverters to operate.

    16. Re:Solar energy? In Arizona? by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      Arizona is located smack dab in the middle of one of the best regions in the world for solar power generation. Why not take full advantage of it?

    17. Re: Solar energy? In Arizona? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No idea, but they should be.

      Generate electricity throughout the day and save the overage in batteries. Discharge batteries at night, or on cloudy days. The problem, as you pose it, is solved.

  5. How about we eliminate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    ...all government funding and promotion for "green energy"? Especially since it seems to be almost entirely an exercise in crony capitalism and kickbacks for campaign donors.

    Government shouldn't be picking winners and losers in energy.

    1. Re:How about we eliminate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Fair enough, let's also withdraw all US military support from the Mid-East, all US protections for coal and oil production, as well as environmental immunities, let's stop eminent domain being used to allow the construction of pipelines and seaports used for fossil fuel production, and let's allow every individual to properly file suit against any corporation that has endangered them by the pollution of the Earth. Or heck, let's just stop protecting them from trespassing, vandalism and assault.

      Oh wait, you don't want to go for a real and true anarchy, but want to keep drawing your own arbitrary lines, conveniently protecting those you like, while excluding those you don't.

      Good-bye moral high ground.

      Sorry, but the government has long protected "non-green energy" and if you are going to insist on preventing crony capitalism and kickbacks, and don't want to pick winners and losers, you're going to have to make a real commitment to it, not a phony sham one that ignores the vast amount of protections and services received by the fossil fuel industry.

    2. Re:How about we eliminate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not the person you were replying to, but I agree with him. And you, too. Just because the government should stop doing many other things as well doesn't make his comment wrong.

    3. Re:How about we eliminate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His comment is a phony sham one unless he can make the full commitment to the principles expressed in it.

      It's the integrity, or lack thereof, that makes it right or wrong.

    4. Re:How about we eliminate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They don't pick winners and losers, they only pick losers and prevent winners.

    5. Re:How about we eliminate... by number17 · · Score: 1

      Government shouldn't be picking winners and losers in energy.

      Are you being paid-off? Why stop at only 20% of the kickbacks?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies

      The global fossil fuel subsidies were $523 billion and renewable energy subsidies $88 billion in 2011.

    6. Re:How about we eliminate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fair enough, let's also withdraw all US military support from the Mid-East

      ... which would result in a power vacuum which would be filled by either Russia or China and would create political and military chaos in addition to an avalanche of bitching by Europeans who are far more reliant on ME energy and the free flow of trade through the Suez than is the US. (That would be the same Europeans who currently condemn the US for its involvement in the ME.) I do think that the current direct US military activity in the ME is unnecessary and largely counterproductive, but complete US withdraw and disengagement from the region is something which no thinking person of good will in the West really wants.

      all US protections for coal and oil production

      What "protections" are those specifically? The US projects power around the world and protects its interests generally. That US power projection is also of tremendous benefit for every company and country that engages in international trade as well as all consumers who purchase products made overseas, including US consumers who buy windmills or PV products produced in China. I realize that you have probably been taught to hate the country in which you live and to view it as an impediment to all human progress, but you should try to recognize that you have been fed a political narrative which, at the very least, does not tell the whole story.

      as well as environmental immunities ... let's allow every individual to properly file suit against any corporation that has endangered them by the pollution of the Earth

      The US has an extremely robust tort system, many would say too robust and much more robust than that of virtually every other country. The only thing that prevents anyone from filing lawsuits against a corp for polluting is "standing", that is, some indication that a person has actually suffered harm from the pollution. Fortunately, that does not allow the filing of lawsuits based on some vague hand waving assertion about 'being endangered by the pollution of the Earth'. If suits based on such vague claims were allowed, it would mean the destruction of our entire system of political economy. It would be impossible to run any business no matter how big or small without that business being vulnerable to an unending string of frivolous lawsuits that, whether successful or not, would consume that business' resources and drive it out of business. Universal standing in US courts for "causing climate change" or "damaging the environment" in a generalized sense is a fantasy desire of political radicals because it would become an unstoppable tool of destruction. What do those political radicals want after they have finished with their destruction? That is a question you should ask yourself. I guarantee it has nothing to do with a clean environment. Environmentalism is just a political weapon to such people.

      let's stop eminent domain being used to allow the construction of pipelines and seaports used for fossil fuel production

      While we are at it, let's stop eminent domain being used to allow construction of roads or public transit systems too. It is telling that you want to not just end what you are suggesting is the special treatment of energy companies, but the deliberate use of govt power to target and destroy those companies. The people whose lives would be ruined by the loss of jobs, the skyrocketing costs of living and the social, cultural, medical and economic costs of rolling brown outs would be hunting you for a lynching. Do you ever think anything through its logical consequences?

      Or heck, let's just stop protecting them from trespassing, vandalism and assault. Oh wait, you don't want to go for a real and true anarchy,

      Exactly. The notion that people who don't want the govt in charge of everything favor anarchy is simply another idiotic assertion flun

    7. Re:How about we eliminate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let rise Fossil Fuel subsidies before we talk about solar subsidies!

  6. Energy buybacks have their problems by bhlowe · · Score: 1

    Forcing utility companies to buy back energy will eventually bankrupt any electricity company. It forces all of the expenses of running their entire grid on a smaller and smaller pool of paying customers. Those customers would be businesses and the "renting" poor, and those unlucky enough not to be able to install solar. However, the electric grid as we know it should eventually become obsolete, as alternative energies such as solar take over. It will just be a complicated period of adjustment.

    1. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Not that I strictly disagree, but your whole post is a bare assertion of a future narrative, without any sort of substantiation.

    2. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by CaptainLard · · Score: 2

      Perhaps. If current trends continue, that may be a real problem for utility monopolies in 50 years or so. In the mean time the load shed of residential solar is doing a small part to help utilities avoid shelling out $billions for new power plants.

    3. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Eventually, perhaps, these net generators need to reconsider selling their excess at all, but banking it instead. Supercapacitors, better batteries, even underground pneumatic makes as much sense as selling to the utility and then buying it back in the evenings at a markup. At least, if solar installations make sense at all, then maximizing it makes sense in most cases.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    4. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Regulated monopolies will not go 'bankrupt'. As cheaper and cleaner sources of electricity are added to the grid, older and dirtier sources can be retired. Rates will be adjusted. Those that are 'lucky enough' to purchase solar panels are paying up front for a long term benefit. Those 'unlucky' subscribers are getting cheaper and cleaner energy over time without having to change a thing. Even if the rates go up, the difference is actually the true cost of electricity as coal had huge externalized pollution costs we will be paying for years to clean up.

    5. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Only forcing them to buy it back at rate can ever do that. But they need to be forced to buy it back at a significant percentage of rate or it's bullshit

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      The development of practical and cost effective local/distributed storage technology would greatly enhance the profile for solar and wind generated electricity. It would also enable the development of a truly "smart" grid. Thus far, those technologies fall short on cost and efficiency. We need to keep working on them.

    7. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      The simple solution is to uncouple maintenance and power costs. Let the state own and maintain the grid while many providers including individuals with panels provide power.

    8. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps heavily regulated but necessary utilities should be publicly owned then so they don't have to worry about profits or even eventual extinction?

      What's more important to you? That you have reasonably clean and efficient electricity available or that some company is making profits? Because if history is any indication you aren't going to get both.

    9. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by slashmydots · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's not exactly how it works. First of all, the industrial grade inverter to supply energy back to the grid cleanly is about $2000 on the low end. Secondly, practically nobody has an array big enough to have a net gain where they actually get a check from the electric company. Maybe their electric bill went from $200 to $100 but to go -$100 is pretty unheard of. Third, the buyback rate is structured so that even if the company turned their power plant completely off because 10,000 private solar array owners were sufficient to power the entire local grid, they'd be paying out about what it would cost to run the power plant. In other words, there's still a profit built in.

    10. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by PPH · · Score: 1

      This is what will happen. But keep this in mind: A significant portion of your per/kWh charge is actually covering utilities fixed costs. It differs between regions, but I live in the Pacific Northwest and energy/fuel costs are a very small portion of my utilities operating costs.

      Now imagine a rate structure where I pay for my fixed costs separately from my energy costs. The energy portion would drop to near zero and my motivation to conserve it would do so as well. Fixed costs would depend on my peak consumption, which would motivate time of use metering as well as peak shifting (aka. a smart grid). Implementing this isn't cheap. My utility is partway there with remote metering. But their IT infrastructure is basically garbage and they failed as an investor owned utility. So raising capital is a show-stopper for them.

      In some ways, a utility operates like a bank, shifting one type of resource (lots of variable small loads, maintenance expenses, fuel costs, etc.) for block power purchasing deals and raising capital at fixed costs. Mandating a change in the way they structure their business is going to produce some winners and losers (my local power co being on the losing side). And much like banking, people will not put up with the system shutting down. So there will be a bailout. And guess who will pay for that.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    11. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by medv4380 · · Score: 1

      Yes, lets repeat the energy deregulation that California did. That worked out great for everyone didn't it?

    12. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Yep, it's essentially the same conflict of interest as allowing cable & telco companies to maintain infrastructure and provide content.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only forcing them to buy it back at rate can ever do that. But they need to be forced to buy it back at a significant percentage of rate or it's bullshit

      Utility should never be forced to buy back, per say. But there should be laws on the books that solar and other non-CO2 sources get priority over CO2 sources.

      So if spot is higher price than long term contract price (LTCP) of coal plant A and LTCP of gas plant B, then solar gets spot. When spot falls below A's but not B's LTCP, then solar gets to "swap" the price of contracted price with lower spot. Utility will get spot until spot rises above its LTCP or solar falls out of the mix.

      That way solar gets maximum price that is currently being sold to the grid, in preference to CO2 emitters.

      So if there is a coal plant selling at $50/MWH and spot is $45 and there is a MW of solar available, then the coal plant can either idle, or sell at $45 - essentially giving solar $5/MWH subsidy.

      Not perfect, but I think more fair than net-consumption.

    14. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by Ichijo · · Score: 2

      Now imagine a rate structure where I pay for my fixed costs separately from my energy costs. The energy portion would drop to near zero and my motivation to conserve it would do so as well.

      If the costs of all negative externalities were included in the rates, then you would voluntarily conserve without any social engineering.

      Correcting market failures is always good for the economy, despite what those who oppose carbon taxes would have you believe.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    15. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by number17 · · Score: 1
      In Ontario we pay more in the short-term because of the de-coupling, but in the long term it will do as you say.
      http://www.canadaenergy.ca/index.php?hydro=competition&direct=act&electricity=1998

      The Electricity Act guaranteed:

      • an open wholesale electricity market
      • retail choice at the consumer level offered by retailers such as Canada Energy Wholesalers Ltd.
      • access to the power transmission grid for new competitors in generation
    16. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by cusco · · Score: 1

      PSE is doing a shit job of maintaining their infrastructure, too. They've cut back on inspections, tree trimming, maintenance operations, and farmed out almost all the new construction to low-bid contractors. On the other hand, I worked for the Snohomish PUD for a while, and the difference between the Public Utility District's power line right-of-way and Puget Sound Energy's is obvious just driving by.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    17. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You'd be right, if not for the fact that utilities pay laughably low prices for bought-back energy. Prices they can change at a whim.

      They're in no danger of being bankrupted.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    18. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      It is bullshit. They buy back power for a tiny fraction of the price they sell it, just enough that it makes more sense to sell the energy to them than to bleed it off through a resistor bank.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    19. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by lgw · · Score: 1

      My water bill is 80% fixed infrastructure cost (and/or PUC graft) and 20% usage. There's no reason not to do electrical billing the same way. Pay a fixed monthly amount to cover infrastructure (based on the size of the bribes to whoever decides the amount), then a usage amount on top of that. That way folks on solar with net 0 usage, but who depend on the grid for power at night, would still pay.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Utility should never be forced to buy back, per say.

      When someone writes "per say", I automatically know they have nothing valid to say. Done and done.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It is bullshit. They buy back power for a tiny fraction of the price they sell it, just enough that it makes more sense to sell the energy to them than to bleed it off through a resistor bank.

      In a few markets, they have been forced to pay market price...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    22. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps heavily regulated but necessary utilities should be publicly owned then so they don't have to worry about profits or even eventual extinction?

      Why stop with electrical utilities? Internet access is a necessary utility, isn't it? So is food, isn't it? (If you don't think so, you obviously want people to starve.) The USSR applied "public ownership" (a practical impossibility in any group of people larger than 20 or so) to everything and that worked out great. Centralized economic planning - always a fantastic idea!

      What's more important to you? That you have reasonably clean and efficient electricity available or that some company is making profits? Because if history is any indication you aren't going to get both.

      Pass anti-pollution laws (actually they already exist in developed nations), let companies compete to deliver electricity, maybe throw in a few extra laws governing distribution grids and deal with the occassional eminent domain issues - problem solved. Why do you hate distrust "companies", hate "profits" and trust govt so much? There is no reason why a company can't both make money and efficiently provide cleanly generated electricity. History is *not* on your side.

    23. Re:Energy buybacks have their problems by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Many of us already have this, or nearly, because we have Public Utilities and we vote for the Board members that run it. And it does solve the problem, instead of doom and gloom about home generation, they encourage it, and have people on staff whose job it is to explain it to the public and help people find the information they need to make informed and responsible choices. And they set up the rules to make it easy for both professional installers, and do-it-yourself-ers.

  7. Seriously? by Dega704 · · Score: 1

    I suppose I'm not too surprised, but wow. All that is missing is a mustache twirling villain rubbing his hands together as he chuckles maniacally.

  8. No surprise where the trail goes by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Tea baggin' Koch Bros...

    "The utility, the Arizona Public Service Company (APS), outed itself as a funder of two secretive nonprofits fueling the anti-solar fightâ"and revealed that it had funneled its anti-solar money through a political operative associated with the Koch brothers and their donor network."

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    1. Re:No surprise where the trail goes by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

      That family is starting to look like a bad Satan parody. What next, secretly funding child slavery rings for hamster wheel electrical generators?

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    2. Re:No surprise where the trail goes by sjames · · Score: 1

      If they could make a penny doing it, I have little doubt they would.

  9. What a shocker by buttfuckinpimpnugget · · Score: 0

    A government granted monopoly trying to keep it's power? How is that even possible?

  10. Net-Metering doesn't make money... by rahvin112 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Net-Metering doesn't make money for the property owner. The Net of the front of that means that at the end of the year if you generate excess power (vs what you used when the sun didn't shine) the balance is wiped to zero and the utility doesn't pay you a cent.

    What this means is that solar panels generate power during peak usage when commercial power rates are the highest, the home owner typically buys power at night when rates are the lowest. The net-metering means the meter spins backwards during the day. If at the end of the year the meter is less than when the year started the balance is zeroed and they start over. If it's positive the homeowner cuts a check for the amount.

    The debate is that as solar power use grows the people using with zero bills aren't paying any maintenance dollars to support upkeep of the grid. Right now power rates combine generation and grid maintenance costs in one per/kw number.

    The counterpoint is that the number of people at zero is INCREDIBLY small because any excess capacity is handed to the power utility for nothing.

    The reality is that as the number of people at or near zero increases, the system needs to adjust to separate power costs and grid maintenance. The solution the utility wants, is to end net-metering, the solution that should be implemented is a fixed line minimum grid maintenance fee (either monthly or yearly). It should be noted that the utility is mostly opposed to this because it would mean they would have to actually disclose what grid maintenance costs and what power costs. And of course the astro-turfed opposition is funded by the two largest private owners of hydrocarbon based energy in the US.

    1. Re:Net-Metering doesn't make money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why does everyone here think they aren't paying for the distribution equipment? Have you looked at your electric bill? Half your bill is static charges that do not change even if you use 0kw a month.

    2. Re:Net-Metering doesn't make money... by Solandri · · Score: 1

      The debate is that as solar power use grows the people using with zero bills aren't paying any maintenance dollars to support upkeep of the grid. Right now power rates combine generation and grid maintenance costs in one per/kw number.

      That sounds like it'd be rather simple to solve. Instead of the meter running backwards when the home is generating excess electricity, newer meters should measure electricity sent to the home separately from electricity sent from the home. The electricity generation charge can then be based on (IN - OUT), and the maintenance charge can be based on (IN + OUT).

    3. Re:Net-Metering doesn't make money... by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      What a waste of money AND a silly idea. The maintenance costs are fixed regardless of energy use. It doesn't cost the company any more to have the line unused than it does to have it pumping power in either direction.

      It's a fixed cost, it could easily be divided up into a monthly rate, separated from the power portion (like some of the other fees) and then charged independent of power flow. If you are hooked to the grid you pay $X amount per month regardless of power flow. This plan also doesn't require the expenditure of a billion dollars to replace perfectly viable electricity meters.

      As I noted the Utilities oppose this because they would have to first diverge the actual costs and these numbers might run counter to what they've told the utility commission for the last 70 years when setting rates. It would also be a step in the direction of separating the grid from power production like California did that allows the public to buy power from anyone they want and treats the grid as common infrastructure.

      It's being backed by people who have bet their fortune on a market that is dependent on fossil fuels who stand to lose big when solar becomes viable competition (which it might already have happened).

  11. Arizona Net Metering Policy by mdsolar · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Arizona net metering policy is already very protective of utilities' interests. http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=AZ24R&re=1&ee=0

    System size can't be larger that 125% of a customer's normal use and customer/generators only get paid at the avoided cost rate, not the retail rate for power generated beyond their annual use.

    In New Mexico, First Solar is selling power at 5.79 cents a kilowatt-hour http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-01/first-solar-may-sell-cheapest-solar-power-less-than-coal.html so it seems hard to believe that this campaign is anything but a way for the Koch brothers to shake down APS.

    1. Re:Arizona Net Metering Policy by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      System size can't be larger that 125% of a customer's normal use

      Over what period? In the long run it might be worth it to leave some AC units running in an open garage for the month before you set up your panels...tell your EV-owning friends they can charge at your place too ;-)

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Arizona Net Metering Policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      System size can't be larger that 125% of a customer's normal use

      Over what period? In the long run it might be worth it to leave some AC units running in an open garage for the month before you set up your panels...tell your EV-owning friends they can charge at your place too ;-)

      In Colorado, the maximum allowed under the program is 120% of the previous 12 months from when the contract was signed. The solar companies (SolarCity in my case) typically size it to be just under 100% of the previous 12 months to allow a little wiggle room.

      SB

    3. Re:Arizona Net Metering Policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2 year power history.

  12. similar campaign against wind power in Idaho by slickrockpete · · Score: 3, Informative

    There's a similar campaign against wind power in general going on in Idaho. I've only really seen billboards with vague questions associating wind power projects so corruption and insider deals, but it is pretty obviously a political campaign to stir up ill will in the voting public.

    As if the utilities never made any corrupt or insider deals.

    The way public utilities were originally set up was intended to deal with a regulated structural monopoly and keep a fair balance between ratepayers and the "owners" of the infrastructure. Since laissez-faire capitalism has been the fashion for the last 30 years the utility commisions have been packed with insiders and had any regulatory teeth taken away. Thank you Saint Ronnie of Alzheim.

  13. That is not net metering by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Net metering gets settled up annually in most places. In Arizona, excess generation is compensated at the avoided cost rate, however much getting that free electricity reduced costs for the utility. This can be less than the market wholesale rate. A supercapacitor or anything else does not help with what to do with an annual excess. It might make the grid irrelevant though.

    1. Re:That is not net metering by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      In Oregon it is typically taken off the monthly bill at a wholesale rate adjusted for both season and time of day. The good news is, PV is at the premium time of day (regular business hours) when the utility is most likely to be buying expensive market power.

      It is trivial for the engineers and accountants to work out the number that saves money for both the utility and the customer, based on what their community is actually using and producing.

  14. Net Metering by Cow007 · · Score: 1

    My comment is regarding net metering in general not specifically as it applies to solar. This is a bigger issue; it's not just with solar that net metering comes into play. I know someone who has a factory and a hydroelectric plant. He sells the energy to the electric company and buys it back at a very small markup. "If you make extra power the electric company is bound by law to buy it." I see no reason to change this; its simply common sense and it applies to more than just solar. These rules have been around for longer than solar was a thing for private citizens and everyone wins. Use of smart meters is especially helpful in these scenarios since the grid is aware when extra power is being generated as well as when it's needed.

    --
    411 Y0UR 8453 4R3 8310NG 70 U5!! -NSA
  15. "Except, perhaps, at night" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I use solar power at night. I have this marvelous invention called a "battery". You may have heard of them....

  16. Depends on the State by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    In Arizona the compensation is at the avoided cost rate, in Maryland it is confiscated, for example.

  17. Mod this up by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Utilities already have connection fees. Should they not just get the accounting right?

  18. The shame is in the way ... by golodh · · Score: 1
    this power company secretly funds political propaganda.

    I agree with their and your point of view that everyone connected to the grid should pay a fixed amount for upkeep and maintenance, regardless of how much they use. If people don't like it, they can go off the grid.

    And I can't even blame the company for spending money on spreading the word of that to the public. But why can't they set up a publicity campaign just publicize their point of view and put their name to it? After all ... it's a legitimate use of (semi) public funds to educate the population about skewed distribution of maintenance costs.

    So why sneakily funnel money to some right-wing propaganda groups to say it for them? That sort of thing is dangerous. Because ... who audits the money spent in this way? Who decides and who authorizes the expense? And besides ... why did they deny it first?

    Their statement was "counter-factual", to put it politely. And this phrase "I know what I told you before but that was my understanding at the time" does sound like a blanket cop-out for everyone who wants to lie or deceive, doesn't it? So: what else does that company fund they're not telling us about, eh?

    In summary, I'm afraid the company left the straight and narrow of technical necessity and business commonsense and plunged straight into politics when they surreptitiously funded a political faction to say things on their behalf.

    1. Re:The shame is in the way ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this power company secretly funds political propaganda.

      You do realize that it isn't just companies that fund political propaganda don't you? Every govt employee is a potential source of propaganda. Every political donation made by a govt employee is potentially going toward the dissemination of propaganda. Every organization that receives tax dollars in any way, no matter how indirect, is potentially a source of propaganda. That includes environmental organizations, universities and govt agencies. Most slashdotters need to spend more time thinking about that.

      right-wing propaganda groups

      Oooo. "right-wing", how evil.

      the company left the straight and narrow of technical necessity and business commonsense and plunged straight into politics when they surreptitiously funded a political faction to say things on their behalf

      A heavily-regulated company which has been granted a govt sanctioned monopoly, laws requiring energy buy-backs from private individuals generating excess power (only if generated using solar tech?), smart meters which monitor and control usage and energy feed back to the grid, govt regulators - I would say that politics and political agendas were involved long before the current kerfuffle. APS clearly exists in a bubble of politics.

      I don't live in AZ and don't know all the details of this case, but the bigger issue is the fact that the govt is so deeply involved with electrical utilities that nothing involving the delivery of electricity is ever free of politics. Maybe getting the govt out of everyone's bidness is an idea worth considering? Too many people today seem to think that nothing can ever get done without a truck load of govt bureaucrats being involved. Believe it or not, most problems are best solved by getting the govt out of the way.

  19. Point by point examination of your post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is a shame that the solar debate is guided so heavily by politics. It is a shame that APS cannot have a public discussion regarding the negative side of solar projects without being bashed by politicians and a list of anti-everything groups that have no accountability. It is shame that APS feels the need to quietly support the dissemination of this information through indirect channels, and not be forthright about it when questioned.

    Agreed. Well said! The browns should stop being such puling cowards, and the greens should stop being so holier-than-thou. People who are uninformed can't get the real facts unless all ten sides of the argument are openly presented.

    Let's be honest, the outrage is simply the fact that the drawbacks of solar are being promulgated.

    False statement. The outrage is principally over their lying, and their possible participation in one of the Koch brothers' anti-free-market conspiracies. Many people believe these men routinely use their enormous wealth to undermine the political, economic and security apparatus of the United States of America, and will be outraged by any secret scheme that involves the Koch borthers in any way. This is the cause of the outrage.

    Would these same politicians be outraged if this money went to a pro-solar entity?

    Yes. If not them, then some other politicians. See Solyndra etc. for oceans of outrage. You can hire politicians to be outraged over anything, and they will also be routinely outraged by anything their pollsters tell them will get them air time.

    Facts are facts. Solar is clean, diverse, expensive and unreliable.

    Partially true. Solar is the most reliable source of power we have. The sun is a fusion plant that operates without maintenance for billions of years. Solar panels require less maintenance investment and less maintenance downtime compared to any other mainstream technology, and have trivial decomissioning costs. The sun is shining somewhere nearly 24 hours a day, nearly 365 days a year, and both energy transmission and energy storage to meet baseload demand are solved problems despite many absurd claims to the contrary.

    There is a fit for it in the mix. There is also a point where it causes problems for the grid that will require significant waste or expense to alleviate. Growth must be managed properly to get the maximum benefit. In most cases, we could reduce environmental impact much more per dollar by investing in energy efficiency rather than solar.

    Completely and unequivocally true. Attempts to implement solar incorrectly will result in waste, and regardless of what technology is adopted increasing energy use means the grid requires expensive upgrades, and solar cannot prevent that. Efficiency is absolutely the highest payback investment, but existing industries (like the incandescent bulb industries) engage in unfair market manipulation and outright propaganda to divert people's focus away from that simple fact.

    Most residential solar units are installed by wealthier Americans who are taking advantage of huge tax incentives. Essentially, we are paying for much of their energy cost via our tax dollars. I find it amazing that some of the same folks who complain about the very wealthy are so willing to give them money in this manner.

    Half truth. There is no doubt that the majority of residential units are installed by upper middle class or wealthier Americans. The incentives, however, are miniscule compared to pretty much any other government handouts - such as, for example, the corporate welfare programs enjoyed by all other energy industries - and every single creature that breathes air benefits from residential solar installations, so it is not an inappropriate use of tax dollars... especially since the majority of the heavily taxe

  20. Wind power as well by Alomex · · Score: 2

    Around here we saw a similar astroturf campaign agains wind power. Call in radio shows were full of irate "farmers" complaining against wind mills. I spent a week in the region talking to actual farmers and they were all in favor of wind mills. They average farmer here earns somewhere between $30K-100K of rental income from the windmill companies and they couldn't be more thrilled about it.

  21. I'm open to hearing informed arguments but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As soon as I hear that word, "secret", red flags go off in my mind. This is not nuclear missile codes or someone's private struggle with a disease. If you do indeed have a valid position on a public issue why all the cloak and dagger?

  22. Prison is the solution. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or kill them.

    Beheading in public is to good for them, Beheading them and their family is not punishment enough.

    1. Re:Prison is the solution. by ralphaostrander · · Score: 1

      Perhaps have a 8 year old swing the ax will do it.

  23. A link to the ad being talked: by BradMajors · · Score: 2
  24. no more solar farms! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    like anything "for the masses" there needs to be some regulation. also for solar. there is this notion that the public grid cannot deal with the fluctuating power generation of solar panels. of course this can be simpley mitigated by requiring that personal solar generation facilities can only be 110% the size of the average 5 year period consumption of electricity. solar fits very nicely into any democracy. everybody gets the chance to "help out". what we dont need are massive solar farms that bring online mutiple mega watt just to then dissappear again when the sun goes down and again concentrate electricity generation into central locations and hands. the sun might shine a bit more further south, but transporting this southerly solarpower to another place where the sun also shines is utter crazyness.

  25. Arizona Conmiisioners' Bios by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Four of five members of the state’s energy regulator are tied to the conservative anti-clean energy group, the American Legislative Exchange Council. http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/11/01/2873071/arizona-solar-battle/