Scientist Seeks Investment For "Alcohol Substitute"

First time accepted submitter MalachiK writes "A senior academic and former UK government drugs adviser reckons that pretty soon it'll be possible to enjoy the fun of being drunk without having to suffer the negative effects of alcohol. In a proposal reminiscent of Star Trek's synthehol, Professor David Nut has identified a number of molecules that he claims offer experiences that are subjectively indistinguishable from alcohol intoxication. Apparently a major advantage of using these more selectively psychoactive drugs is that the effects can be quickly reversed. It's not all good news though as Professor Nut seems to think that the drinks industry is using its financial and political clout to stop this sort of research being undertaken."

Comments

You had me at ...

[bigjocker]

Professor Nut

Re:You had me at ...

[NettiWelho]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/30/drugs-adviser-david-nutt-sacked

Professor David Nutt, the government's chief drug adviser, has been sacked a day after claiming that ecstasy and LSD were less dangerous than alcohol.

His claims are factual but go against official-opinion-on-the-matter(tm)

Re:You had me at ...

[Anonymous Coward]

When a government scientist gets sacked for stating an obvious fact you know things are fucked.

Re:You had me at ...

[Anne_Nonymous]

The Nut son married a Sachs girl and they now have a bunch of little ones running around with a wonderfully hyphenated last name.

Not all good

[houstonbofh]

One of the things that cause people to curb their drinking is that morning after hangover. With no pain for indulgence, this could be much more addictive than alcohol, which is already very addictive.

Re:Not all good

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, there will be no need to 'curb your drinking' when you can control the effects instead of the effects controlling you.

Re:Not all good

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the things that cause people to curb their drinking is that morning after hangover

No.
If you're an alcoholic, the hangover is just a reason to start drinking early, not a deterrent. No hangover? I'll drink to that!

If you're not, then you don't really need to "curb" it, and the memories of the dipshit things you did will be just as much of a deterrent. In fact, since you'll have a clear head and fully remember all your antics from the night before, the lack of hangover would actually increase the chances you'd think twice before having that last six shots of Tequila.

As for the article, we already have alternates to booze and it's called Marijuana. But because it's not physically addictive and doesn't cause horrible health effects, that means it has an even higher potential for abuse and is thus even more "addictive". Legally speaking, that is. I have a feeling that anything this guy comes up with is going to end up in the same boat. Either it'll have some nasty side effects (like so-called 'bath salts') or it'll be "too good" to allow people to use.

Re:Not all good

[fey000]

Then again, there will be no need to 'curb your drinking' when you can control the effects instead of the effects controlling you.

The problem depicted is not that of hangovers, but rather that of excessive drinking leading to a severe lapse of judgment and restraint. This seems like a smart consideration to make.

I have seen drunks with little regard for their own or other's safety, and I would prefer if such behaviour stayed rare and infrequent. We already have problems with drug addicts behaving in undesireable ways, so let's take a moment to ponder if we want more alcoholics that behave in a similar manner.

Also, it should come with a redshirt.

Re:Not all good

[jrumney]

Psychological addiction is all in your head. You can get addicted to absolutely anything (including non-chemical things like gambling), and you can wake up one morning and quit cold turkey. The real danger from alcohol is the physical addiction. Alcohol is one of the few drugs that can be life threatening if a serious alcoholic suddenly can't get any. As long as the replacement drug is not physically addictive, then it is a big improvement.

Re:Not all good

[PopeRatzo]

One of the things that cause people to curb their drinking is that morning after hangover.

That is absolutely so. I haven't been drunk since shortly after college and it's because I hate how it makes me feel the next morning.

I don't know about the rest of the comment though. I don't quite understand why people feel that intoxicants are inherently bad. I don't use them, but I don't share the moral objection to them.

If someone can use an intoxicant and still manage their life in a way that is satisfactory to them, I don't believe that society needs to place artificial strictures on intoxicating substances.

Re:Not all good

[Altus]

You do understand that alcohol withdrawal can kill you right? It's phyxical effects are more dangerous than heroin withdrawal. Not that psychological addiction should be scoffed at but alcohol addicicion is no small matter.

Re:Not all good

[Charliemopps]

This begs the question: If a drug has no pain for indulgence, and you can turn off the effect almost immediately with a counter-acting dose... Does it matter if you're addicted to it? Do we have a problem with people using drugs of their own free will if those drugs have no negative impact on their lives?

Re:Not all good

[Anonymous Coward]

No, there are certain people (mostly Asian) that have a genetic mutation involving how Ethanol Metabolizes that causes their hangovers to come on quicker and stronger. It's been proven that these people have significantly lower rates of alcoholism. It's been proposed that this common genetic mutation among Asians is a contributing factor to eastern societies relatively low rate of alcohol consumption.

Spoken like a man that has only studied East Asia in books and journal articles, having never been there. They drink like fish and are stone alcoholics, too. Not sure where you're getting your information, but it's not from reality. Lying to save face is also extraordinarily common. Just look at Fukushima!

Re:Not all good

[germansausage]

You should hang out with some Koreans some time. Their genetic mutation seems to be 2 parts Irish and 1 part Russian.

Re:Not all good

[spaceman375]

You have it backwards. Asians are one of the few human lineages that haven't developed an adaptaion to the consumption of alcohol. Specifically a liver pathway for dealing with ethanol rather than a more generalized one. It's a little slower to metabolize the ethanol into the first step, an aldehyde, and the one produced has a different feel to it. Less euphoria, more blushing red face IIRC.

Re:Not all good

[Dahamma]

Sorry, your post is factually incorrect. The common mutation to the pathway is with ALDH2 (aldehyde dehydrogenase), the *second* step of the process.

What happens is ethanol is broken down into acetaldehyde by alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH), and then the aldehyde into acetic acid by ALDH2. When ALDH2 is not effective, aldehyde (a toxin) builds up in the bloodstream and causes flushing, nausea, headaches, etc. And it's been traced down to a single amino acid substitution in ALDH2 with partially dominant expression.

One interesting anecdote I've seen from this is the use of certain drugs (an antihistamine, I think?) as off-label ALH inhibitors - basically to slow the pathway down and reduce buildup of acetaldehyde. In fact, an anesthesiologist friend was giving it to all of the Asian guys at the last bachelor party I attended :)

And do the slightest research into it and you will see the OP was correct - one study showed something like 40-50% of Japanese had ALDH2 deficiency as a whole, but less than 5% of Japanese alcoholics had it. If you almost immediately got flushed and sick when you drank you'd obviously be more likely to avoid it in general...

As someone with a high tolerance...

[neminem]

The effects of alcohol are occasionally fun to experience, but what aren't fun are a. attempting to get drunk and failing because it takes a lot, b. attempting to get drunk, overshooting and being too drunk, and c. even after drinking exactly the right amount, getting a hangover because you had to drink a lot to get there. I totally applaud this research.

That said, this is apparently also very old, so I'm not holding my breath ever seeing this in reality. (That is a link to basically the same synopsis of the same guy's research, from 2006.)

Already exists !

[bob_super]

"the effects can be quickly reversed"
It's called RU-486

*ducks*

Not just this research.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard the drinks industry is allegedly involved against the decriminalization of pot. For obvious reasons.

I'd consider pot an already researched and much better alchohol substitute too, but each to their own.

Re:Already Exists

[Xicor]

everything that does anything similar is illegal... just look at weed...

Taste vs Effect

[Lanforod]

I don't drink Alcohol for the effect/buzz etc. I drink it for the taste. I love a cold beer, or nice rum n coke, a scotch on the rocks, or a glass of pinot noir, all depending on the situation. The buzz can be nice, but that's more what the teenagers drink for, IMO.

Re:Taste vs Effect

[Anne_Nonymous]

What's interesting is that the alcohol is such an important part of the taste of these drinks. I did an unfortunately large amount of research to find my wife a decent tasting NA beer to drink while pregnant (yes, I know there's still some alcohol in NA beer). And even the best of them (IMHO Thomasbrau, by Paulaner), just didn't taste right without the alcohol. I'd say the same of red wine where I did less extensive tasting and could find no NA wines that were even in the acceptable range.

Re:Taste vs Effect

[chameleon3]

I don't drink Alcohol for the effect/buzz etc. I drink it for the taste.

I love the taste of alcohol, too, but the buzz is part of the reason we got to liking it in the first place-- simple classical conditioning.

Nutt, not Nut

[Okian Warrior]

First of all, it's Professor David Nutt, not "Nut"

Second of all, it's the same Professor who was a British government advisor, who was sacked for "criticising politicians for distorting research evidence and claiming alcohol and tobacco were more harmful than some illegal drugs, including LSD, ecstasy and cannabis."

Seems like a scientist with integrity. Perhaps this is less the risible ramblings of a madnam, and more he's at the "...then they laugh at you" part of fighting the good fight.

(Unless, of course, you think LSD and cannabis are more damaging than alcohol and tobacco, in which case feel free to poke fun.)

it's Nutt, you nut

[SuperElectric]

Former member of the UK government's drugs advisory panel, until some pol fired him for pointing out (correctly) that the health risks of horseback riding outweigh those of doing ecstasy. He's the author of Drugs Without the Hot Air, a fantastic book. http://boingboing.net/2012/06/20/drugs-without-the-hot-air.html

Re:I Have a Glass of 2006 Ribera del Duero Here...

[DaveAtFraud]

Will Prof Nut's concoction taste this good?

I know it's a rhetorical question but can't stand not answering with a decided *NO*. I've tried both "near beer" and "non-alcoholic wine" and neither tastes anything like the real thing. They aren't even poor substitutes; they're horrible.

Professor Nut seems to think that the only reason people drink is to get drunk. He definitely needs to expand his circle of drinking companions as well as what he drinks.

Lastly, I would be afraid that his cure would be worse than the disease. This sounds like the next "date rape" drug.

Cheers,
Dave

Higher alcohols...

[jasno]

There are many substances that effect our bodies in ways that are similar or complimentary to ethanol. Many of those substances are already present in fermented products like wine and beer. Some of those are higher weight alcohols(i.e. - fusel oils) like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophol. There are other components too, such as the chemicals found in hops. Most of these compounds do not metabolize into acetaldehyde so they do not result in a traditional hangover.

Re:I Have a Glass of 2006 Ribera del Duero Here...

[Trepidity]

I have a can of Natural Ice here, and have a similar question to ask.

Re:Already Exists

[Joining Yet Again]

The thing is that most of the "bad effects" of alcohol, e.g. lapsing judgment, are also the "good effects". It's all about context.

Re:Already Exists

[Cryacin]

I guess everyone who said it would take a nut to come up with this was right.

Chemical basis for gambling addiction

[Any Web Loco]

Hi - my partner works in problem gambling and (according to her) there's reasonably strong evidence for a biological (read:chemical) component to gambling addiction. I think the wikipedia article even touches on it. Yep, it does.

"subjectively indistinguishable"

[Hartree]

"subjectively indistinguishable from alcohol intoxication"

So to do that, too much would have to make you pee a lot, fall down the stairs and wake up in your own vomit, but no hangover?

Now there's a selling point for you.

Re:Less healthy?

[cmdr_tofu]

Yet alcohol is a risk factor for developing cancer of the throat, mouth, and basically the rest of the digestive tract. The anti-oxidants in wine are also readily available (without risk-factor alcohol) in the form of grape juice or grapes.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/alcohol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer (3.6% of cancer cases and 3.5% of cancers deaths are attributed to alcohol)

Research into a healthier alternative (maybe added to a high anti-oxidant blueberry juice) is certainly worthwhile.

Re:Already Exists

[Hamsterdan]

Alcohol is *NOT* on the lower spectrum regarding addictiveness.

(you can die from alcohol withdrawal)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_withdrawal#Prevention_of_brain_damage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg

enlightenment

[Anonymous Coward]

I now understand a shitload of anime that never made sense with regards to this until now, thank you.

I could never understand why they used red face to mean tipsy, I was like "why would even an uptight character be embarassed to be drunk, thats the one time they can let loose and won't give a fuck what other people think until the next day" because in real life none of my friends get red faced when they get shit faced.

Granted I will look at the ones with asian backrounds more closely now, assuming I'm actually sober at the same time which isn't likely as I'm mostly a social drinker. It all makes sense now!

Re:Already Exists

[ozmanjusri]

Cannabis:

In summary, enormous doses of Delta 9 THC, All THC and concentrated marihuana extract ingested by mouth were unable to produce death or organ pathology in large mammals but did produce fatalities in smaller rodents due to profound central nervous system depression.

The non-fatal consumption of 3000 mg/kg A THC by the dog and monkey would be comparable to a 154-pound human eating approximately 46 pounds (21 kilograms) of 1%-marihuana or 10 pounds of 5% hashish at one time. In addition, 92 mg/kg THC intravenously produced no fatalities in monkeys. These doses would be comparable to a 154-pound human smoking at one time almost three pounds (1.28 kg) of 1%-marihuana or 250,000 times the usual smoked dose and over a million times the minimal effective dose assuming 50% destruction of the THC by smoking.

Thus, evidence from animal studies and human case reports appears to indicate that the ratio of lethal dose to effective dose is quite large. This ratio is much more favorable than that of many other common psychoactive agents including alcohol and barbiturates (Phillips et al. 1971, Brill et al. 1970).

http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/LIBRARY/mj_overdose.htm
http://www.oregon.gov/pharmacy/Imports/Marijuana/StaffReview/ReschedulingCannabis-NOTES_3-10.pdf

Re: Already Exists

[gzuckier]

I have a high tolerance Tonight I have consumed many drinks and nothing hs happenef to n y et I am still siber and fyully sgt jcnn