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Scientist Seeks Investment For "Alcohol Substitute"
First time accepted submitter MalachiK writes "A senior academic and former UK government drugs adviser reckons that pretty soon it'll be possible to enjoy the fun of being drunk without having to suffer the negative effects of alcohol. In a proposal reminiscent of Star Trek's synthehol, Professor David Nut has identified a number of molecules that he claims offer experiences that are subjectively indistinguishable from alcohol intoxication. Apparently a major advantage of using these more selectively psychoactive drugs is that the effects can be quickly reversed. It's not all good news though as Professor Nut seems to think that the drinks industry is using its financial and political clout to stop this sort of research being undertaken."
Professor Nut
Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
One of the things that cause people to curb their drinking is that morning after hangover. With no pain for indulgence, this could be much more addictive than alcohol, which is already very addictive.
The effects of alcohol are occasionally fun to experience, but what aren't fun are a. attempting to get drunk and failing because it takes a lot, b. attempting to get drunk, overshooting and being too drunk, and c. even after drinking exactly the right amount, getting a hangover because you had to drink a lot to get there. I totally applaud this research.
That said, this is apparently also very old, so I'm not holding my breath ever seeing this in reality. (That is a link to basically the same synopsis of the same guy's research, from 2006.)
"the effects can be quickly reversed"
It's called RU-486
*ducks*
Will it taste as good as a nice bottle of Rum?
Will Prof Nut's concoction taste this good?
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
Dunno, but it looks like these guys would be an obvious choice. Does the good Dr accept Bitcoins?
Three Squirrels
Proffessor Nut?
you don't say.
It is known that certain forms of alcohol (real ale, Wine) have anti cancer elements, drinking moderately extends life. With all this removed you are just left with the drug.
Perhaps the one which reverses the effect of being drunk has more promise (ready to drive home), but again if abused, as I am sure it would be, the kidneys still have to work, if the person is able to drink more it is perhaps less healthy.
I've heard the drinks industry is allegedly involved against the decriminalization of pot. For obvious reasons.
I'd consider pot an already researched and much better alchohol substitute too, but each to their own.
everything that does anything similar is illegal... just look at weed...
I don't drink Alcohol for the effect/buzz etc. I drink it for the taste. I love a cold beer, or nice rum n coke, a scotch on the rocks, or a glass of pinot noir, all depending on the situation. The buzz can be nice, but that's more what the teenagers drink for, IMO.
First of all, it's Professor David Nutt, not "Nut"
Second of all, it's the same Professor who was a British government advisor, who was sacked for "criticising politicians for distorting research evidence and claiming alcohol and tobacco were more harmful than some illegal drugs, including LSD, ecstasy and cannabis."
Seems like a scientist with integrity. Perhaps this is less the risible ramblings of a madnam, and more he's at the "...then they laugh at you" part of fighting the good fight.
(Unless, of course, you think LSD and cannabis are more damaging than alcohol and tobacco, in which case feel free to poke fun.)
After their success with Olestra, I'm sure they have eager investors on speed-dial with money to burn on the next artificial-vice-substitute.
Former member of the UK government's drugs advisory panel, until some pol fired him for pointing out (correctly) that the health risks of horseback riding outweigh those of doing ecstasy. He's the author of Drugs Without the Hot Air, a fantastic book. http://boingboing.net/2012/06/20/drugs-without-the-hot-air.html
There are many substances that effect our bodies in ways that are similar or complimentary to ethanol. Many of those substances are already present in fermented products like wine and beer. Some of those are higher weight alcohols(i.e. - fusel oils) like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophol. There are other components too, such as the chemicals found in hops. Most of these compounds do not metabolize into acetaldehyde so they do not result in a traditional hangover.
http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
No, really, what about those that alcohol has no effect over?
I currently drink once in a blue moon, just because I don't get drunk. I get from the state of "I'm drinking" to the state of "I have a passing hangover like the afternoon of the next day", and only after an hour of drinking. I drink vodka - about 400ml to get me feel something and at about 500ml I am practically sober with alcohol converted to god knows what, but do not experience any pleasant or unpleasant effects any more.
Bullshit. You are not somebody who doesn't get drunk. You are somebody who doesn't realize they are drunk. There are plenty of people like this out there. You're still drunk, you just don't know it. Try drinking 400ml of vodka, then ask an experienced cop to give you a sobriety test.
you should drink for the taste and not the feeling. If you drink only for the feeling, you might be looking at problems no too far in the future..
weed & ativan. there, research done. we can all go home early.
The thing is that most of the "bad effects" of alcohol, e.g. lapsing judgment, are also the "good effects". It's all about context.
Or maybe it's because it's very easy and cheap to get yeast to produce your alcohol for you. Might be ok as a replacement for distilled spirits, but imagine how expensive synth-beer would cost if manufacturers had to pay some chemical company for the added synthehol. Not to mention how it would be nearly impossible to replicate the flavor (think non-alcoholic beer).
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
I don't get hangovers. This is a genetic trait, shared by many serious alcoholics (rather than just opportunist ones like pop-stars), related to the balance between different alcohol-processing metabolic pathways in my body.
If you are interested in my genes, send me some money and your address, and I can stick a sample in an envelope for you. Group discounts negotiable. If you all accidentally raise sociopaths, or in fact if anything at all happens, I take no responsibility at all.
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
Good luck getting that past the FDA. They frown on new 'mind alternating' chemicals.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I guess everyone who said it would take a nut to come up with this was right.
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
People saying the love beer for its taste. Have you seen any stocked a fridge full of non-alcoholic beers?
Alcohol: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
The same could not be said for something like "Synthahol."
Most of the articles skimp on this detail, but the Professor's magical substance is a chemical analog of benzodiazepines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine
They're well tolerated in the short term and often even used as part of alcohol detox treatment ... but in regular, long term use can be more seriously addictive and destructive. In other words, it'll work great for those occasional drinkers who don't need it and its no good for those heavy drinkers who could have benefited from a real "synthehol"
Little bit of alcohol and it's like insta-hangover for me. To make matters worse, I can't stand the vile taste of alcohol, no matter what it's mixed with. I used to think this was a bit of a curse considering how many social activities involve drinking, but with how expensive alcoholic beverages have become, maybe it's not so bad.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
"Scientist Seeks Investment For "Alcohol Substitute" "
Yea, it's called POT. We've had it for a very long time.
A high dose of anything will cause negative effects, if not death. You can even kill yourself from drinking too much water. The problem with some drugs is that the lethal dose isn't too far off from the common dose to experience the effect. Things like alcohol and GHB fall into that category, where the lethal dose is less than an order of magnitude than the effective dose, which make them somewhat dangerous.
The intoxication wears off.
Have gnu, will travel.
That also depends on tolerance, though. As I type this I've consumed 12 drinks tonight, and will consume more. That could kill an inexperienced drinker, but as I'm of Irish ethnicity and have been drinking for years this sort of thing isn't unusual. I've met guys that can drink me under the table; easily 20+ drinks isn't beyond their reach, and without any falling down or embarrassing themselves.
Hi - my partner works in problem gambling and (according to her) there's reasonably strong evidence for a biological (read:chemical) component to gambling addiction. I think the wikipedia article even touches on it. Yep, it does.
The drug "GHB" does exactly this.
Unfortunately, high doses can cause coma.
Unlike alcohol?
And, it is illegal.
Sure is.
"subjectively indistinguishable from alcohol intoxication"
So to do that, too much would have to make you pee a lot, fall down the stairs and wake up in your own vomit, but no hangover?
Now there's a selling point for you.
I wonder what the LD/50 of sand is...
Sigger than your average
No, you can't OD on weed. You can OD on butane hash oil or other concentrates, but that is like comparing heroine to the poppy plant itself.
It's called Synthehol - http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Synthehol With everything else that they have gotten from Star Trek is this not just one more thing?
2 kilograms per kilogram?
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
everything that does anything similar is illegal... just look at weed...
Weed's only illegal because you ALLOW it to be.
Washington and Colorado have made it not illegal, Oregon and Alaska likely to to follow soon, with a whole raft of other states after that
So instead of whining about it, start collecting signatures.
Personally, I'd rather drink than smoke.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
citation? or you mean eating so much hashish that it fucks up your stomach/you do something stupid? or suffocating due to breathing in only smoke for too long in some crazy weed breathing apparatus?
which is quite different from OD'ing on coke or alcohol in which you just drop dead from the stuff itself, right in the middle of the night of partying, without the person doing anything else stupid than taking 16 shots of jagermeister - and the thing with alcohol is that the killing dosage varies so much nobody is going to stop you from drinking potentially lethal amounts in a bar, certainly not the bartender at least if you can behave yourself(which is not a surefire indication of if you're going to drop dead from it or not).
(and by citation I don't mean link to some nutjobs "I took a sniff of hashish and spent 3 weeks in lala land(because I drunk 24/7 during the period) warning story page, but like, to an actual case of somebody's body failing solely because he took too much thc - since there's plenty of cases of alcohol poisoning).
oh and to the actual article.. it's not a problem to find a substitute drug at all. the problem is solely to get the substitutes legalized. alcohol prohibition itself isn't feasible because you can make alcohol if you have food, simple as that.
*) disclosure: I quit drinking because I don't want to repeat acute pancreatitis, but man, a drinking substitute has to be at least as fun as drinking!
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Sorry, I have Irish genes. I haven't had a hangover in 20 years. And yes, I drink like an Irishman.
And it would be damn expensive to do that.
Where's the soma?
Although I guess you could argue salvia is basically soma, but it's now illegal in (I'm pretty sure) every state. I'm still confused why alcohol and tobacco have been excused from the morality legislation. I guess they just got the lucky break of being the state approved soma.
The risk with GHB is that when consumed with alcohol the reaction is very very bad. So the issue is, if we were to supply GHB-based beverages on the market, even with a very controlled low dose, once mixed with alcohol the results can be instant blackout (the reason why GHB is used as a date rape drug), profuse vomiting, coma, seizures, and death. You're essentially asking to end up in the ER if you do this combination to even a bit of excess.
I personally know people who had the attitude of "oh i'm experienced using GHB, I can control myself from drinking too much alcohol while on it" ... right there is half the problem, once some people start drinking the subsequent drinks are consumed with less judgment - surprise surprise considering it inhibits your sense of judgment.
So we're not talking about high doses here, the LD50 for GHB is kind of low, combine that with alcohol and it's even lower.
Tolerance is a mixed bag. You're still likely to be messing up your liver long term. Not to mention that heavy drinkers, _especially_ those with a high tolerance, are at a high risk of an alcoholic stroke.
Alcohol is *NOT* on the lower spectrum regarding addictiveness.
(you can die from alcohol withdrawal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_withdrawal#Prevention_of_brain_damage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
I now understand a shitload of anime that never made sense with regards to this until now, thank you.
I could never understand why they used red face to mean tipsy, I was like "why would even an uptight character be embarassed to be drunk, thats the one time they can let loose and won't give a fuck what other people think until the next day" because in real life none of my friends get red faced when they get shit faced.
Granted I will look at the ones with asian backrounds more closely now, assuming I'm actually sober at the same time which isn't likely as I'm mostly a social drinker. It all makes sense now!
Cannabis:
In summary, enormous doses of Delta 9 THC, All THC and concentrated marihuana extract ingested by mouth were unable to produce death or organ pathology in large mammals but did produce fatalities in smaller rodents due to profound central nervous system depression.
The non-fatal consumption of 3000 mg/kg A THC by the dog and monkey would be comparable to a 154-pound human eating approximately 46 pounds (21 kilograms) of 1%-marihuana or 10 pounds of 5% hashish at one time. In addition, 92 mg/kg THC intravenously produced no fatalities in monkeys. These doses would be comparable to a 154-pound human smoking at one time almost three pounds (1.28 kg) of 1%-marihuana or 250,000 times the usual smoked dose and over a million times the minimal effective dose assuming 50% destruction of the THC by smoking.
Thus, evidence from animal studies and human case reports appears to indicate that the ratio of lethal dose to effective dose is quite large. This ratio is much more favorable than that of many other common psychoactive agents including alcohol and barbiturates (Phillips et al. 1971, Brill et al. 1970).
http://www.druglibrary.org/SCHAFFER/LIBRARY/mj_overdose.htm
http://www.oregon.gov/pharmacy/Imports/Marijuana/StaffReview/ReschedulingCannabis-NOTES_3-10.pdf
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Unfortunately, high doses can cause coma. And, it is illegal.
Sounds like alcohol in the '20s.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Being drunk without the negative symptoms would only cause more problems IMHO. The negative symptoms make sure (at least some) people think about what they are doing. A lot more people would be drunk all day.. Just live with the consequences of drinking regular alcohol...
Also I don't understand why 'drink'companies would have a problem with a substitude alcohol, they've been looking for it for quite some time, all it will do is give them more ways to get people to drink..
without having to suffer the negative effects of alcohol
subjectively indistinguishable from alcohol intoxication.
Make your mind up.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Agreed. Too much alcohol just makes me feel dizzy, and a little sick. I can see how this numbness could be exploited to "escape" reality, but I neither need nor want a chemical to escape anything. If I want to have fun, I'll do it with all my wits about me.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
First of all, I'd like to say that I like Prof. Nutt and the work that he's done. In particular his lead authorship on Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse and Drug harms in the UK: a multicriteria decision analysis represent a great public service.
But frankly this effort seems misleading. Either he's misrepresenting the potential of such a drug, or he's deluded himself. While I can easily imagine a drug that could be qualitatively similar to alcohol, though less harmful to the health of the user, I am aware of no popular recreational drug (outside of a small class of hallucinogens) that is completely non-neurotoxic. Prof. Nutt of course knows this. In particular, any drug that manipulates the excitation-inhibition balance as its primary action is almost certainly going to lead to habituation when used chronically and therefore will cause neuroexcitotoxicity when withdrawn.
Furthermore, any claims regarding lack of addiction potential should also be regarded sceptically. All widely used GABAergic drugs (ethanol, benzodiazepine, GHB) that I am aware of possess significant addiction potential. This may be avoidable, if the new drug were appropriately designed, though I cannot say that with certainty since I am not an expert on the binding properties of such molecules. But I should point out that the binding properties that give them their "desirable" effects also will cause them to bind to the interneurons of the VTA (Ventral tegmental area), part of the mesocorticolimbic dopamine system --- which is believed to be the initial locus of all drug addictions. For more information on this see Drug-Evoked Synaptic Plasticity Causing Addictive Behavior, Christian Luescher 2013 (JNeurosci).
Anyway, I think there are probably good reasons to prefer a tailor-made alcohol substitute, but I find it very strange that Prof Nutt is choosing to promote his efforts in this way. Given his history I would expect him to be a little more rational about how he promotes the work. On the other hand, given how irrational the public and the government are regarding drugs, maybe it's more reasonable to engage in a bit of propaganda. Unfortunately I think it goes against the spirit of his efforts in the last years.
And the fact that GHB is probably highly neurotoxic. There hasn't been a decent primate (non-human or otherwise) study completed yet, but the work done on rats is not encouraging (massive cell death in both PFC and hippocampus). If you're using GHB recreationally, I would seriously recommend reconsidering.
Where is my droud?
No, you can't OD on weed
You can, just like you can OD on water or oxygen. You'd need a monstrous amount though.
No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
What I'd really need is a prefect replication of beer and whine without alcohol ... I love the taste but personally dont care about the alcohol much.
You'd have to have someone apply it to you, unless you think you could eat a half kilo of sticky golden tar.. don't forget that one of the very early side effects of excessive cannabis usage (at a point nowhere near OD also) is unconsciousness.
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
Look into green dragon then :)
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
Which is why brownies were invented.. Can't stand green dragon, I don't react well to simultaneous alcohol and pot consumption. However, thanks to drug testing in my industry, I am no longer able to indulge. I think the number one problem we will see with legal marijuana is the lack of a test that distinguishes between intoxication and recent use. Imagine if alcohol gave positive test results for weeks after consumption. Even if pot is legalized in my province I won't get to enjoy it because of my employer. My employer has some ground to stand on, as I work in a safety-sensitive position and although there's no problem with me drinking after work because I will test negative in the morning - if I were involved in an accident and tested positive for THC nobody would be able to prove I wasn't high when I caused the accident.
Your friends scribbled "Vodka" across a bottle of water and then spent the rest of the week laughing at you behind your back. You aren't going to come to a place like Slashdot making magical claims about being immune to alcohol and have anyone think you're anything more than an idiot.
Hey, if you're at the store, can you pick up a nut case on the way home this evening?
How would "RU-Pentium" work? Would it keep the embryo's cells from dividing correctly?
Alcohol: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
Alcohol. Helping ugly people get laid since...
I'm surprised big pharma hasn't done this already. I suspect that Western ideals of work ethic and morality are really the hindrance.
I would think it would be possible to develop a compound that has the criteria for the ideal recreational drug.
1) Short duration -- effect wears off after ~3 hours.
2) Self-limiting dosage -- rapid diminishing returns of repeated dosing. Perhaps a 10-20% increase in effect with a second dose, but little or no gain with subsequent or increased dosage, either in terms of increased psychoactive effect or duration of action.
3) This is the wrong term, but a long "half life" that makes repeated dosings ineffective within 18-24 hours of a previous dose. Combined with #2, this would make it difficult to abuse by taking it all the time and mitigate the habit forming nature of it by forcing a "down" period before the drug's psychoactive effect can be felt again.
4) A psychoactive effect that is more tranquilizing/calming/hypnotic than energizing or stimulating but without being too somnambulant. This should mitigate some of the social issues faced with stimulants like cocaine, amphetamines or even alcohol.
Obviously it shouldn't have a realistic overdose potential or synergistic effects with any CNS depressants like opioids, alcohol or benzo-type sedatives.
Strangely it seems like cannabis is a good starting point, since it has some of these properties already -- the more you use it, the less the high seems to be, it has almost no overdose potential, and its effect is more sedating than stimulating, and it doesn't have any CNS depressant synergies.
... we will perfect the exercise pill, as well. After all, there's no reason anyone should be inconvenienced by the consequences of their actions.
I'll just sit back, enjoy a GMO meal, a glass of nuohol, and do a VR hike of the Pacific Crest Trail.No actual backbone required.
That dog and monkey had to set some world record for being stoned as fck!
Ethanol and synthehol: http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/edible-innovations/synthehol.htm
Story from 2009: http://io9.com/5434752/real+life-synthehol-will-get-you-buzzed-but-never-drunk
Trekkie: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Synthehol
Barbituates
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
I have a high tolerance Tonight I have consumed many drinks and nothing hs happenef to n y et I am still siber and fyully sgt jcnn
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
citation? without the person doing anything else stupid than taking 16 shots of jagermeister
16 shots of Jagermeister is an excellent example of stupidity. I think people who would do that would drink brake fluid.
legal disclaimer: Since I know ther are people her that probably drink Jag, please do not under any circumstances try to consume brake fluid, or use it as a substitute for Jagermeister
Vicks formula 44 might be a good substitute though.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
That dog and monkey had to set some world record for being stoned as fck!
Wiped a whole town out of Fritos chips.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Agreed. Too much alcohol just makes me feel dizzy, and a little sick. I can see how this numbness could be exploited to "escape" reality, but I neither need nor want a chemical to escape anything. If I want to have fun, I'll do it with all my wits about me.
The Ethanol - you're not doing it right.
Getting shit faced is for teenagers, college kids and severe alcoholics, and if you are dizzy, you are way past what you should have consumed. Lost your wits? Yikes! should have stopped a long long time ago.
Properly consumed in small amounts, it is relaxing and enjoyable. A couple beers, some wine, or a mixed drink or two is actually good for you.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I wonder what the LD/50 of sand is...
Depends on the route of ingestion.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Ah, you haven't even asked what he's drinking. Ginger Beer isn't terribly high percentage by volume after all.
Whereas I've had half a pint of Baileys and Butterscotch Schnapps and I can assure it, it's gorgeous.
Fuck the alcohol effects without the downsides, give me the sugar content and taste without the alcohol effects or the downsides. I drink stuff that tastes nice, not because it makes me drunk.
Well, that's what I mean: what I would consider a "reasonable" amount does nothing except make me feel a little less alert, then a little more makes me feel slightly tingly, and too much makes me feel dizzy/sick. There is no point at which I feel merry, or relaxed.
Depends on how you measure addictiveness. If you compute it by dividing the number of addicts by the number of users, it's a hell of a lot less addictive than nicotine.
As a smoker , hell yes. It's a whole lot harder to stop smoking than drinking
I've got better things to do tonight than die.