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Bill Gates's Plan To Improve Our World

An anonymous reader writes "Bill Gates has written an article in Wired outlining his strategy to improve people's lives through philanthropy and investment in technology and the sciences. He says, 'We want to give our wealth back to society in a way that has the most impact, and so we look for opportunities to invest for the largest returns. That means tackling the world's biggest problems and funding the most likely solutions. That's an even greater challenge than it sounds. I don't have a magic formula for prioritizing the world's problems. You could make a good case for poverty, disease, hunger, war, poor education, bad governance, political instability, weak trade, or mistreatment of women. ...I am a devout fan of capitalism. It is the best system ever devised for making self-interest serve the wider interest. This system is responsible for many of the great advances that have improved the lives of billions—from airplanes to air-conditioning to computers. But capitalism alone can't address the needs of the very poor. This means market-driven innovation can actually widen the gap between rich and poor. ... We take a double-pronged approach: (1) Narrow the gap so that advances for the rich world reach the poor world faster, and (2) turn more of the world's IQ toward devising solutions to problems that only people in the poor world face.'"

445 comments

  1. Most of the problems listed have a single cause by viperidaenz · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Religion.

    1. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by bondsbw · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Why stop there? If you posit that religion is the single cause for most of those problems world-wide, then you must also see that certain religions are highly correlated to many of those issues, while other religions have a low or inverse correlation.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    2. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Religion is just one form of control. Get rid of it, and something else will be used, be it patriotism, racism, drugs, financial ruin or sports.

    3. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Don't forget money.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    4. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism

    5. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I know a lot of people are going to downvote the hell out of this, but it is a sad truth.

      A lot of the countries that suffer from these problems have a hugely corrupt religious following throughout them, or many warring religions.
      And often times these groups have a pyramid approach where the "more important" people get most of anything and the "poor peasant turds" get the scraps. I remember we got past that corruption of nobility nonsense back in the stupid ages.

      Religion itself is not bad, but without regulation it is.
      And with time, that also gets out of control so trying to regulate it is GOING to straight up require hostile action, regardless.
      It is a tragic world we live in. People like to pretend we are in an age of enlightenment, are we fuck, we are still baby steps at best. It is just like those morons that think humanity is in the space age, NOPE, that is like saying the iron age started when some dude tripped over some ferrite. Not how it works, sorry. Humanity is at best in the baby steps towards an actual space age. Come back in maybe 100 years if we don't blow ourselves up over fossils, again.
      Well, maaaaybe 50 if these space mining operations actually do come about. Planetary Resources actually did have a really huge and so far pretty efficient schedule from what I remember reading recently, they are already sticking to plans more-or-less. I can't WAIT to be a space pir--trucker.

    6. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You must also see that certain religions are highly correlated to many of those issues, while other religions have a low or inverse correlation.

      I.e: "This religion is good. Other religions are bad"

      That's the exact argument that keeps humanity killing each other over stupid ideas. Fuck all of them.

    7. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by JWW · · Score: 1

      Such a bullshit response.

      You have to be completely blind to 20th century world history and quite ignorant on top of that, to truly believe that the elimination of religion would actually solve even some of the world's problems.

    8. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ebno-10db · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Religion.

      Atheism.

    9. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by larryjoe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Magnitude of evil perpetrated by "bad" people with religion == Magnitude of evil perpetrated by "bad" people without religion.

      Religion is almost never the driving factor. In the absence of religion, such people would have found other means and justifications to perpetrate their evil. There are many such examples in history.

      Unfortunately, the castigation of religion often reveals a hatred of religion more than a hatred of the evil acts.

    10. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Although evil has been committed in the name of religion, I would still say that more has been done through religion to ease human suffering than any other system. By contrast, governments have killed more people than religion ever could, and if that government is a theocracy it is still a government. In the 20th century the tyrannical governments of Russia, Germany, and China have slaughtered hundreds of millions of people. Many of the best hospitals in the world are run by religious organizations, there are many religious orphanages, and in every major city you can find a mission that focuses on the homeless. To blame everything on religion is just an easy answer for the popular culture which talks a good game but in the end does very little for the poor unless of course there is photo op involved.

    11. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Wrong, the problem today is corruption and people accepting corruption as the normal. Our current shitty state of the union is not due to any Religion, it's due to corrupt people in power. The only thing mentioning Religion does is to show that religion is not above or beyond being corrupted.

      Fact: The Catholic Church never taught people that pedophilia was correct, or good, or just. In fact they taught (and teach) their followers that it was bad, illegal, and that they would spend the rest of their lives in hell if they were to commit these acts. Meanwhile a bunch of corrupt leaders sat in a back room committing the crimes or covering up for those that did. That's not "Religion", that is "Corruption".

      As long as you have biases and bigotry it's hard to see where the real problems are. While you bitch about "Religion A" being bad, the same corrupt fuckers are sitting behind a corrupted government, doing the same corrupt things. They laugh at how ignorant the masses are, and how easily they are fooled by bullshit propaganda.

      "The Noble Lie" is not something that only "Good" can use, it's also something that corrupt evil people use.

      Oh, and Bill Gates is corrupt lying fuck that I would not trust with my used toilet paper, let alone tell us what changes we need to make in the world or what sciences we should be studying.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    12. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 2

      I know a lot of people are going to downvote the hell out of this, but it is a sad truth.

      Did you forget what site you are on? This is Slashdot, any pro atheist comment gets +5 informative/insightful and anything discussing not just a Religion, but contemplation of a "Creator" gets you -234 Flamebait/Troll.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    13. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Greed. Which is, of course, based on fear, which, is, of course, the penalty of human awareness. Unregulated capitalism certainly equals any other system in terms of global destruction and hardship for the people at the bottom. The greediest and most psychopathic people rise to the top of any unregulated system.

    14. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by zdepthcharge · · Score: 1

      Humans.

    15. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      The usual retort to that is that it's reversing cause and effect.

      Religion does not cause poverty and misery. It's wealth and happiness that leads to secularism, agnosticism, atheism and the sort of bland and bloodless liberal theism which for most practical purposes is functionally equivalent to atheism or agnosticism.

    16. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by icebike · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up.

      The knee-jerk response that Religion is the source of all problem indicates a very poor grasp of history of the last hundred years.
      Religion is at best used as an excuse, but was never the principal cause of any major conflict since the Crusades.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    17. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Tom · · Score: 1

      Fact: The Catholic Church never taught people that pedophilia was correct, or good, or just.

      There are two kinds of teaching - the one "by the letter" and the one by action.

      On paper, the Hells Angels are a Harley Davidson fan club, you know?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    18. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by geekoid · · Score: 1

      True. Your point?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    19. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      Most insightful comment today.

    20. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by geekoid · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Or it represents the majority opinion, but you surely wouldn't allow yourself to accept that now, would you

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    21. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by golden+age+villain · · Score: 1

      Religion is a convenient wrapping paper when you need to move the crowds, that's it. As the masses are by definition uneducated and uninterested morons, it's simpler to pitch geopolitical issues in terms easily understood by many rather than telling the truth. Leaving aside natural events, the only two (human) driving factors for history are influence and wealth. These are the things that trigger wars, civil wars, revolutions, migrations, etc... And this will never stop because if you can't compete for resources and influence in a civilised manner, it might be that your best rational option is to use violence. As Emil Cioran wrote "L'heure du crime ne sonne pas en même temps pour tous les peuples. Ainsi s'explique la permanence de l'histoire." which roughly translates to "Murder time does not come at the same time for all nations. This explains the continuity of history."

    22. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it does. When you go study to become a priest you study a lot of materials ordinary people do not among them those 300 books bible actually is. I've seen students go atheist while studying to become priests.

    23. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by geekoid · · Score: 0

      1) Over population is a result of religion. This is a huge catalyst for many, many problems
      2) Religion gives you an excuse to do what you want. "They had is coming" or "Bad Karma" or "god will sort it out" and so on.
      3) It allows people to accept there current station as a divine will with some purpose. Decreasing peoples motivation to actual improve their life.
      4) It makes society have to deal with crazy talk,
      5) Make people self righteous and when any argument is countered that say 'must be a plan'

      It's a warm blanket that that allow people to feel correct without evidence.

      Removal or religion would lessen nearly every problem we have.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    24. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by geekoid · · Score: 0

      Religion gives one an excuse, Atheism give one responsibility, try again.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    25. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by poity · · Score: 1

      Assholes with power and a laundry list of excuses, religion among them, anti-religion too.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    26. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 2

      Depends. The majority of Slashdot? The majority of the World? The majority of the US? I have no confidence that the majority of Slashdot is atheist, but the mod system ensures that people rarely speak of Religion or creation. If you are talking about the majority of the population, the majority is Religious in one form or another.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    27. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "l. Our current shitty state of the union is not due to any Religion, it's due to corrupt people in power."
      it's SPECIFICALLY becasue of religion. Pay attention.
      We have representatives that want the world to be shitty so their second coming will arrive.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    28. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Religion does not cause poverty and misery."
      telling people to keep copulating and having children or they won't get a place in their heaven causes a lot of poverty and misery.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    29. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by rubycodez · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1. statistically, poor people likely to have a lot kids, whether religous or not. well off people do not, whether religous or not. most well off people in first world countries have a religion, but they don't even have enough kids to maintain population

      2. people do what they want and justify it whether they have religion or not, it's human nature

      3. Many religions have hard work and self-improvement as commandment

      4. Atheists also engage in crazy talk and actions, and have even outdone Hitler in body count on at least two occasions

      5. Science, engineering, medicine, psychology and philosphy have been used as basic for being self-righteous just as much as religion

      Humans are troublesome creatures, the problems will persist with and without religion

    30. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Poor logic, glad to see you play the game certain people want you to play. You can only teach by example when people can see the example. In the case of Catholic priests raping children, it was actively hidden.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    31. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      So every member of a Church is a Priest? If that is not true, then your "Actually it does" is contradicted by your next statement.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    32. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know a lot of people are going to downvote the hell out of this, but it is a sad truth.

      A lot of the countries that suffer from these problems have a hugely corrupt religious following throughout them, or many warring religions.

      One small problem with your theory: Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung and his kids...

      Note that none of them were religious, and indeed they actively worked to stamp out all traces of it.

      Religion-as-control is merely a tool, just like ideology-as-control, or even free stuff as control (see also the phrase panem et circensus.

      The problem isn't in religion, but in the human beings who would use it as a form of control.

    33. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      While an interesting line of conspiracy to study, it's also not relevant to the root cause. Remove the corruption and the problem is solved, argue about it being a luciferian conspiracy and you get nowhere.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    34. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While this is, of course, flamebait, there is an element of truth to it. Basically, the primary long term issue that humans are going to have is overpopulation. Simply speaking, the earth can only support so many people for so long.

      What is the simplest moral way to stop overpopulation? Birth control.

      Who are the main force fighting birth control? The devout religious.

      So in that sense, religion is contributing to these problems listed (which are mostly side-effects of overpopulation). Of course, this issue isn't intrinsic to religion, and I'm not suggesting any kind of negativity toward religion itself. But the fact that many religions have doctrine against birth control, and push their ideals on every one, is truly damaging the world.

    35. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Religion gives one an excuse, Atheism give one responsibility, try again.

      Responsibility for what? For instance, tell us how responsible Josef Stalin felt during his purges.

    36. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "l. Our current shitty state of the union is not due to any Religion, it's due to corrupt people in power."
      it's SPECIFICALLY becasue of religion. Pay attention.
      We have representatives that want the world to be shitty so their second coming will arrive.

      1) very few sects want to bring about any sort of eschaton; I defy you to prove otherwise.

      2) Please prove the one binding dogma throughout all religions that specifically demands that one desires the "world to be shitty". I know of plenty which state that it pretty much is (almost always due to shitty human nature), and most even go so far as to describe how one helps improve said shitty conditions, but nothing really outside of a few whacked-out sects (paging Anton McVey!) that desire or enjoy such a condition.

      3) For a religion that desires a shitty world, one wonders why the first relief services on the ground in the Phillippines were... religious organizations.

      4) Let go of the hate already.

    37. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      "Religion does not cause poverty and misery."
      telling people to keep copulating and having children or they won't get a place in their heaven causes a lot of poverty and misery.

      Wow - did you read the Bible while standing on your head or something? Nowhere outside of one Old Testament reference ("be fruitful and multiply", which was a *blessing*, not a commandment) can you find any such thing.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    38. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

      Religion is just one form of control.

      In world history and human behavior, religion provided a common moral framework which allowed a society to retain some level of stability as it grew in size. A large society without any common moral framework will become increasingly domestically unstable, and ultimately become ungovernable as a single sovereign entity without a civil war & mass slaughter if nothing changes.

      Of course, religion has also been used by tyrants to create fanatics and spark wars. But the fact remains that the beginnings of early civilization would never have succeeded in attaining any long term stability without religion. The Magna Carta and Western ideas of natural rights were based upon tenets taken from Christianity.

      People in general in large societies need to have a spiritual faith in something larger than themselves and belief in a core set of moral standards to give them spiritual strength, sense of mercy and charity, and restraint in their negative animal impulses and temptations.

      The more civil, kind, and peaceful the population is on it's own without coercion by force, the more individual freedom that can exist, and a common moral framework is essential. Technically, I suppose if there were some other *equally effective and voluntarily as attractive/popular* non-religious societal moral framework, it could take the place of religion, but I know of none that can adequately meet all those essential requirements.

      So far, there has never been a society that had Atheism as one of it's tenets that didn't end up a totalitarian hellhole that killed millions and horrified the world at large. There has also been any number of horrible societies/nations that are/have been fanatically religious, or more realistically, have had a group of leaders who use/used certain selected parts of religions to create fanatical supporters/fighters, like Christian fanatics during the Crusades and the current attacks by religious-fanatic Islamic extremists.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    39. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the fun - always enjoyable to tweak the Evangelical Atheists.

    40. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by oztiks · · Score: 1

      Hardly see how. Religion offers the incentive that if you're to kill someone you might go to hell over it. Atheism lends itself to the fact that there is nothing after death so we might as well do whatever we like.

      Careful, your neighbour might be an Atheist and at any point jump the fence and fuck your wife while you're out ...

      See same old prejudices, same only rhetoric. Atheism is just the new black in the sphere of religion.

      So, if you feel that Atheism gives you a sense of responsibility and place in your community. Then I guess it's the appropriate Religion for you after all. Ha! Atheism a religion! you gotta be crazy right?

      Religion = a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
      Atheism = disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

      A Religious Atheist. Someone who has a great devotion to the lack of belief of God [or gods].

    41. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Entropius · · Score: 2

      Atheism is not a "tenet". It is simply the lack of faith in the supernatural.

      There are quite a few irreligious societies, in fact if not in name, that are doing quite well -- the Japanese, for instance, and some European countries (~20% religious).

    42. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well stated. If Bill Gates really wants to help poor people, why doesn't he arrange for those with electricity get free computers with free software? Oh, that might reduce his income, never mind.

    43. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Tom · · Score: 1

      Poor logic, glad to see you play the game certain people want you to play.

      Put your energy to thinking deeper instead of personal attacks.

      In the case of Catholic priests raping children, it was actively hidden.

      From the outside world, yes. Within the catholic church, the guilty were actively protected. Supporting people in their actions is a common way to show them they are ok. The same effect is visible in many other areas.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    44. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      There really was not a personal attack, I was pointing out what would be obvious if you were not guilty of what you claim I need to do. Put your energy into deeper thinking. I gave the examples, you refuse to attempt comprehension.

      If what you stated was true, hundreds of millions of Catholics would have been involved in raping children and covering up the crimes. What is there, about a billion registered Catholics in the world? (Rough guess, I'm not going to waste time on digging up that stat for your ludicrous line of thinking.)

      In reality, there were a hundred or so priests over a couple of decades engaged in the acts and probably a few hundred higher level clergy (bishop/cardinal/pope) that knew about the crimes and facilitated the cover ups. Meanwhile, the billion or so (roughly) Catholics had no idea so could not have learned from the example.

      It's either you are wrong, or by your reasoning if you work in a company that has a criminal that you don't know about, you are going to be guilty of the the same crimes because you can learn by osmosis and don't actually have to see an example to learn from it. I believe you realize how stupid that would be, but would probably have difficulty putting your own bigotry in that example because, well, it's bigotry.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    45. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by anubi · · Score: 1

      I think you are pretty close stating religion as the cause; from what I see every war that has ever been waged has been a banker's war... over who owns what.

      In the early Bible days, it was over who had dominion over the tax paying / tithing populace.

      Every war I have studied was over who had rights to tax others. Right now it seems the America is being allowed by the world bank to run rampant with bad money policy because our armed forces enforce the banking elite's ownership claims. Our government seems to have been sold to the bankers. And as long as money can buy enforcement of claims, bankers will continue printing it.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    46. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ebno-10db · · Score: 0, Troll

      Atheism is not a "tenet". It is simply the lack of faith in the supernatural.

      A tenet may be a belief. Lack of faith in the supernatural (God, gods, whatever) is the central tenet of atheism. Like it or not, the thing that atheism has in common with religion is that both are belief systems.

    47. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is evidence that suggests that prevalence of religiosity correlates negatively with overall societal heath. link Non religious states have less violence and more equitable.

    48. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by atlasdropperofworlds · · Score: 1

      > So far, there has never been a society that had Atheism as one of it's tenets

      I think the problem with Stalinist Russia was Stalin. It was also not free of religion, it placed Stalin in that role instead.

      The concept that you need religion to preach morals is completely preposterous. Religion is a human creation after all, so clearly we already have an ingrained sense of morals.

    49. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Gumbercules!! · · Score: 0

      Not really true at all, I'm afraid.

      Unquestionably we have conflicts at the moment between a clash of two cultures, one of whom is increasingly secular (but not even close to entirely) and the other of whom is increasingly non-secular. However, if you look at your recent (say last 200 years) history, this is really an anomaly (and it's debatable how much of the current conflict is truly about one religion fighting another). Most of the headline conflicts of the last 200 years really stem from European desire to control the world and to fight amongst themselves and almost every single war in the last very long time - and many of the current world hotspots - stem from the oppressive rule of the British Empire, the subsequent collapse of said empire and the complete an utter mess they made on their way out the door. Their arrogant belief that they could ignore local facts on the ground and just draw arbitrary lines on a map and say "you're now a country and you're now a different country" has created a huge problem in many, many places. Religion has little to do with this; a confounding factor at most.

      Let's look at the list of conflicts and ask how many the British had more than a little bit of a hand in, shall we?
      The Boar War: British.
      Countless intra-European wars in the past few hundred years: all the same religion.
      WWI? Obviously Britain was front and centre, here.
      WWII: Arguably a continuation of the never finished WWI and you can certainly look at the way the French and British punished Germany as complicit in Germany's selected path here (but certainly still a battle about colonial Europe and no, I am not discounting Germany's culpability for this conflict).
      Vietnam: Not really the British's fault directly but unquestionably a region that was left in a power vacuum at the end of WWII without it's "colonial masters".
      Afghanistan: Guess who stuffed up the borders of that country, as well as massacring the population for most of the 1800's?
      England/Ireland: Obviously Britain is involved in this conflict.
      India / Pakistan: Hello Britain!
      Israel/Palestine: Britain again. As with India and Pakistan, they didn't just make arbitrary lines on map with no concern for what the local populace felt, they also made promises to both sides they never intended to keep and fanned the fires. Hell, most of the Middle East in fact has borders drawn by Britain.

      The list goes on, and on and on and we haven't even started on the forgotten conflict slaughters, like the indigenous population of Canada, Australia, the USA, New Zealand, the pacific Islands, etc. etc.

      Forget religion: Britain has the most to answer for, with colonial Europe in general. I am sure plenty of people will respond that religion is why the people in these areas are fighting - but that's just a very, very simplistic and frankly uninformed opinion. There's significant evidence that when these regions had stable power bases (British or otherwise), local populations of mixed religions and sects managed to get along just fine (certainly with some incidents but generally fine). It's only when they struggle for control kicks in that everything goes to hell - and it does this everywhere, every time, even when the populations are the same religion.

    50. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I, for one, thank you for actually using logic as athiests claim to do.

      Unfortunately, your reason and logic fails in the face of his blind and overwhelming hatred. Sometimes people build it up using whatever piece of convenient bias they hear and by this time they can't unwrap it now or feel foolish. And there are many who would sooner die than lose their pride.

    51. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by green+is+the+enemy · · Score: 1

      Wrong, the problem today is corruption and people accepting corruption as the normal.

      Corruption, as in caring only about oneself and fuck everyone else, is a natural instinct. Unethical behavior is fair game if you can get away with it. The animal world works almost exclusively on this principle. Why is it any wonder that people accept corruption as normal?

      We should be designing our society not based on the premise of moral players, but immoral ones. This is why Capitalism has been celebrated as such a success: It converts natural purely selfish behavior into benefit for the common good. Even sociopaths can be productive members of society! Hurray!

      However, pure Capitalism tends to let a sizable percentage of the population just starve. So we tried to build a public institution that would help all the citizens achieve their full potential: a large, sophisticated government. Unfortunately, government work requires ethical conduct, and temptation to corruption is great. To achieve further progress, we need to place more checks on corruption wherever it can do the most damage. Right now the lack of oversight of the NSA, and their resulting unethical conduct, are generating news. The power of lobbyists is also going unchecked, and we have had some poor legislative outcomes that do not benefit the greater society because of this. Many politicians rely on corporate money to get elected, and so legislate favorably to the corporations, not the general public. These are definitely problems that needs addressing. However, no one is suggesting that what they are doing is unnatural or unexpected. Corruption is very natural.

    52. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Gumbercules!! · · Score: 0

      "Be fruitful and multiply" *is* 100% a commandment. It's the first of the 613 commandments mentioned in the Torah (see item 125 here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments).

      And as for the guy you're responding (geekoid) to's assertion that having too many kids is bad, I would ask him what he instead recommends? Would he have it that all those lives never existed and all the potential those children bring with them never exist because those children aren't as worthy as he is? His parents had less kids and he has more material things so his life is somehow worth more than theirs?? Should we go to South East Asia where there's massive over population (and, I point out, very little western religion) and explain to those kids they should never have been born, so other kids can have a nicer life? I'd argue kids in poverty stricken areas probably do a lot *less* damage to our world than us entitled 1st worlders, in the grand scheme of things.

    53. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What responsibility? To be a total and complete idiot all the time, feeling that you're so right?

      Tell me, does that remind you of anyone?

    54. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Fact: The Catholic Church never taught people that pedophilia was correct, or good, or just. In fact they taught (and teach) their followers that it was bad, illegal, and that they would spend the rest of their lives in hell if they were to commit these acts.

      I'm curious where this actually comes up in Catholic dogma. Has the Catholic church traditionally had a problem with this? Obviously they've always objected to adultery, so they would require a properly sanctioned marriage. Aside from those objections, however, are there any traditional catholic age limits?

    55. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Corruption, as in caring only about oneself and fuck everyone else, is a natural instinct. Unethical behavior is fair game if you can get away with it. The animal world works almost exclusively on this principle. Why is it any wonder that people accept corruption as normal?

      Humans have a learning potential that animals do not. If you buy into the bullshit that 'you are just an animal" then shame on you. I'm guessing that you have never or read some very critical Philosophy work, or never quite grasped the full meaning if you did. Spend some time studying the whole of Plato's "The Republic". No, reading the Wiki page does not count.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    56. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like it or not, the thing that atheism has in common with religion is that both are belief systems.

      Does your brain hurt when you try to formulate a sentence to justify garbage like that?

      READ MY LIPS. Being skeptical of weird stuff is not a "belief system" just a rational mind doing its work.

      Not falling for supernatural scams is not a "lack of faith", it's not a lack of anything, just a rational mind doing its work.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    57. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by green+is+the+enemy · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing the line "unethical behavior is fair game if you can get away with it" set off this response. I do not want to say that unethical behavior is OK, but rather that it is an instinct. It is foolish to expect everyone (especially those in power) to grow beyond their primal instincts and act ethically. Personally, I do not condone unethical behavior.

    58. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Please explain how religion has no part in the mistreatment of women.

    59. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Atheism is a religion.

    60. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Do you think Christianity is the only religion?

    61. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ebno-10db · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Does your brain hurt when you try to formulate a sentence to justify garbage like that?

      A strong, almost violent, reaction to questioning what they've said is an unfortunate trait of religious fanatics. As a defense mechanism, they attempt insults or ridicule, rather than engage in reasonable debate.

      READ MY LIPS.

      George Bush, Sr. posts on Slashdot? Cool. What were you saying about new taxes, Mr. President?

      Being skeptical of weird stuff is not a "belief system"

      Do you not believe in it, or are you, as you stated, just skeptical? That would make you an agnostic. It's true that agnostics don't have a belief system, as by definition they don't know what to believe. Atheists are another matter.

      Not falling for supernatural scams is not a "lack of faith"

      Take it up with the GP, he's the one who chose the phrase "lack of faith". Does this disagreement between you and him arise from a schism in atheism?

      it's not a lack of anything

      Perhaps a refresher would help. "Lack" as a noun is defined as "the state of being without". If you do not have a belief in something, then you lack that belief. Similarly, I do not have a third arm, hence I lack a third arm. Or am I being culturally insensitive, and the use of the word "lack" signifies a transgression or taboo amongst atheists?

    62. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      In world history and human behavior, religion provided a common moral framework which allowed a society to retain some level of stability as it grew in size.

      The problem is that all religions are based on untruths and most of them on lies. Unless all forms of advancement are ruthlessly suppressed, the untruths will be identified and corrected, undermining the religion. Hence religions are inherently unstable, and cannot provide a long term basis for a behaviorally stable advancing society.

      What is needed is a rational, true philosophy. Religion by its very nature cannot provide such a philosophy because religions claim to have the ultimate, perfect, immutable truth: sooner or later reality is seen to conflict with the religion and if it changes then it will be seen not to be perfect.

      Of course, most people are either too stupid or too uncaring to notice such changes, and historically many religions have lost many of their fundamentals through such changes, resulting in their failure as a guiding force.

      But the fact remains that the beginnings of early civilization would never have succeeded in attaining any long term stability without religion.

      Early civilization is too far removed in time for us to know what was going on, much less what mechanisms held it together. To say religion held it together and spurred it along is mere speculation without any predictive power. It's much more likely that the advantages of trade, division of labor, and the shift to farming made civilization possible. A common religion is not necessary to civilization as long as enough members accept nonviolence and honesty as their normal practice.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    63. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I'm not claiming you are wrong, or that the person you responded to is wrong. As mentioned, that discussion does not change or solve our current problems so it's unprovable conspiracy theory for now. If you want to study a bit of that conspiracy Mark Dice's books do a decent job of it. "Illuminati Fact vs. Fiction" is interesting not just for the luciferian connecting conspiracy, but points at hundreds of other books that go back to the 1800s showing similar conspiracy discussions.

      A few things on your points: 1. It does not take a large sect or group of people to want shitty conditions to get us shitty conditions. The state of politics in most places should make that apparent. 2. I personally don't know crap about the current teaching of luciferian cults. Reading some of the documents confiscated in the 1700s and assuming similarity to their teachings today, you can't compare them to what you know of Religions. 3. See item 2.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    64. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the castigation of religion often reveals a hatred of religion more than a hatred of the evil acts.

      The fundamental problem with religion is that it encourages fuzzy, bullshit thinking. Before you know it you've proven that black is white and you know how that winds up.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    65. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by smugfunt · · Score: 1

      Religion is almost never the driving factor. In the absence of religion, such people would have found other means and justifications to perpetrate their evil. There are many such examples in history.

      Yes, but those evildoers would mostly be beneath the notice of history if it wasn't for their ability to move the masses with the lever of religion.
      There are other levers, but religion is the longest and comes most easily to hand.

    66. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I think you are pretty close stating religion as the cause; from what I see every war that has ever been waged has been a banker's war... over who owns what.

      You've got it. Personal property is the root of all evil. Doesn't matter whether you're claiming dominion over a piece of ground, or a piece of food, or a piece of ass. When you act selfishly, others will get left out.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    67. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I don't agree that instinct is at play as much as social teachings. Human nature is selfish to a point, that I would agree with. That said, we have society's that at least for a time were not full of self serving people and ruled by selfish people. Take most of ancient Greece for example, and even early Rome that adopted the Athenian form of Government. It fell apart the first time when the Government started to be ruled by people that were completely self serving. I won't go further on Rome because it's too complex or a Slashdot post, but the point is that we can learn not to be "selfish animals" and have done so for small periods of history.

      Personally I believe that the "you are just an animal" arguments serve the corrupt in power much more than they serve you, so ask if it's possible to be untrue and just part of the game to keep you in the proverbial cave.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    68. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Religion offers the incentive that if you're to kill someone you might go to hell over it.

      Wow, do you ever have a narrow vision of religion. Consider Valhalla.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    69. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      To your first question, this comes up in a whole lot of anti-religion posts, and is probably the number 2 on the "reasons to hate Religion" topic list. First would be blaming Religion for all the wars and deaths from wars.

      To your second question, I have no idea if there is an age limit that can be fixed (meaning impossible due to lack of historical records). It would probably match the historical average for the region where they were practicing. Back then, they didn't mark legal age by a fixed number of years but rather by convenience. This was especially true with women where the practice was to pay the prospective husband to marry the woman. If the family could not afford a dowry, it may be 20 years old before marriage. If they could afford the dowry, the recordings say "youth" which assumes passed childhood probably marked by puberty and the woman's first period. Since men were waiting for dowries there is no reason to believe that their selection was any different. Perhaps a strong large guy would have been married off quickly, but the majority would have been mid-teens by most records.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    70. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      While I'll admit that Slashdot has a pro-atheist slant, I've posted things in the past mentioning my religious beliefs without getting modded down as a troll. The trick is not to toss your religion out there as "The One True Path That Everyone Should Convert To Now" or use your religion as the sole basis of your argument and expect that everyone else will fall in line (e.g. "my religion says X and that's why it should be a federal law").

      However, if you are expressing a personal opinion that only affects you based on a religious belief, people won't automatically shout you down. Some will disagree with you, sure, but they tend to be calm and reasoned about it. Yes, some will feel the need to "disagree" by insulting you for having any sort of religious belief at all - as if this is better than the religious folks who insult people who don't follow "The Right Religion" - but they are the minority and easily ignored.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    71. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I have argued not a Religion, but that the concept of having a creator is valid from a Philosophical perspective on several occasions and was marked off as Troll or Flame bait for doing so. I'm sure it depends on who has mod points on a given day.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    72. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      This is what I keyed off of (which is, incidentally, what your Wikipedia cite refers to).

      I'm thinking that someone at Wikipedia was more or less asleep at the switch. ;)

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    73. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Any attempt to narrow down the driving forces of history results in willfully ignoring some factors and squeezing others into categories into which they do not fit. How do you factor ideology (many cases) or mental disease (Idi Amin's syphilis, for example). I've seen it argued that the Gutenberg press caused the American Revolution. Do you honestly think that influence and wealth ran the Underground Railway, or caused John Brown's attack at Harper's ferry?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    74. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Mao Zedong's One Child Policy and the resultant selective abortion of girls (due to cultural preference towards boys) stands out as an example...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    75. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Obama would still be a terrible danger to this country if he were not corrupt. It's entirely possible that if his minions were not busy feathering their own nests and hiding their blunders, they'd be much more effectively advancing their evil agenda.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    76. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by green+is+the+enemy · · Score: 1

      So your suggestion is to educate everyone to be more ethical and less susceptible to corruption, right? This might be doable, but it is very difficult. A large number of poor people lead very difficult lives. They would be very difficult to persuade into purely ethical behavior, when they perceive lots of injustice being done to them by the ruling class. Athenians might have had a more ethical citizen body because not everyone was allowed to be a citizen. We do not have that luxury. Also, any system relying on trust in ethical behavior is unstable and susceptible to subversion. Basically, a smart unethical actor has an advantage over a large number of ethical ones. Anyway, this is an interesting topic.. I wish more people participated.

    77. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Under pure Capitalism there is no such thing as a minimum wage or most other rules that make employment expensive. A minimum wage is the primary cause of unemployment, which can lead to not having enough money to feed oneself.

      Both historically and theoretically Capitalism provides the greatest food production.

      So we tried to build a public institution that would help all the citizens achieve their full potential: a large, sophisticated government.

      Your joke isn't funny.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    78. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      I'm curious where this actually comes up in Catholic dogma.

      It's in the catechism itself (look for item 2389, halfway down the page) :

      "Connected to incest is any sexual abuse perpetrated by adults on children or adolescents entrusted to their care. The offense is compounded by the scandalous harm done to the physical and moral integrity of the young, who will remain scarred by it all their lives; and the violation of responsibility for their upbringing."

      Also, consider that even without that specific prohibition, child marriage is (and has pretty much always been) prohibited, as is sex outside of marriage. Combined, it covers things neatly.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    79. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I never said it was easy, I said it was possible. Public schools in my opinion should spend a long time teaching people about Plato's "The Republic". Socrates had most things correct. It's not easy to grasp many of his concepts but every child in elementary school should be able to understand the majority of "The Allegory of the Cave", defend themselves against common fallacies, and be able to communicate without fallacy. Those three things alone would make a huge difference.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    80. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      It's usually the first that comes to mind (and is the largest globally by population), but very few others actually require one to pump out kids.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    81. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Gumbercules!! · · Score: 1

      Not really sure what you mean, sorry? In any case, "Be Fruitful and Multiple" (pru urvu) is a commandment. It's one of the 613 commandments (mitzvot) Jews are obligated to live by (and the Torah is, after all, a Jewish text).

    82. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Under pure Capitalism there is no such thing as a minimum wage or most other rules that make employment expensive. A minimum wage is the primary cause of unemployment, which can lead to not having enough money to feed oneself.

      WHAT? Where did this insane idea that Capitalism is a free for all without regulation come from? It's surely not in Adam Smith's work when he defined the economic system. Adam Smith was very clear that the Government must be a regulator for Capitalism to work.

      You are also absolutely wrong about minimum wage being the primary cause of unemployment. I was trying to think of an analogy to show how wrong that was, and I can't because it's a very bizarre thing to say. I guess it's kind of like claiming that having dimes causes the devaluation of currency. I'm sure I can come up with some arguments to try and show that statement is valid. If you spend a couple seconds to consider the complexity of the subject you should realize that my arguments, even if true, don't mean that if we did away with dimes devaluation would suddenly vanish.

      Trade deficits without penalties or tariffs on imports cause much more unemployment than having a minimum wage. No cap on salaries and bonuses for executives cause more unemployment than minimum wage. The unfair tax system causes more unemployment than having a minimum wage. Those are three starter topics, but the complexity of unemployment currently is much more than the four items mentioned. I'm just trying to show where your statement is wrong.

      Both historically and theoretically Capitalism provides the greatest food production.

      So we tried to build a public institution that would help all the citizens achieve their full potential: a large, sophisticated government.

      Your joke isn't funny.

      That point, I very much agree with you on though I don't perceive the person you responded to was joking.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    83. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Yes.
      2. Yes.
      3. Yes... and almost none of them have much to show for it.
      4. ... Not in the name of atheism. There is a different there.
      5. How? When? Where? Are you referring to eugenics somehow?

      I think "troublesome" is the wrong word. "Troubled" would be accurate, but "troublesome" implies that there is someone else besides ourselves who we are troublesome for. Atheism is a necessary, but not alone sufficient, condition for progress.

    84. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      and carrying on the family name has its base in religion.
      You can't tell me marriage doesn't have its roots in religion.

    85. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      2.1 billion Christians vs 2.4 billion Muslims.

    86. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Looked into this a bit more. It looks like it was typically 12 years of age, based on pre-catholic roman law, but was as low as 7 years old and sometimes younger in catholic medieval europe.

    87. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by tragedy · · Score: 1

      That's a law against incest that broadens the definition of incest to include adopted and foster children and godchildren, wards, etc. That clearly covers special cases and not the general case. From what I can find from a little searching, it looks like the Catholic church mostly adopted the pre-christian Roman marriage age of 12 years old, but allowed marriages at 7 years old or younger in medieval Europe.

    88. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >So far, there has never been a society that had Atheism as one of it's tenets that didn't end up a totalitarian hellhole that killed millions
      >and horrified the world at large. There has also been any number of horrible societies/nations that are/have been fanatically religious,
      >or more realistically, have had a group of leaders who use/used certain selected parts of religions to create fanatical
      >supporters/fighters, like Christian fanatics during the Crusades and the current attacks by religious-fanatic Islamic extremists.

          " The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable. "
              —Sam Harris[102]

    89. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by zwei2stein · · Score: 0

      "Lack" implies you have deficinecy.

      You can not say you lack third arm, because you would not have third arm.

      Telling people they "lack faith" implies you think less of them for not being religious. Not a way to win hearts and minds, but good way to get people adversarial (as your exchange nicely illustrates).

      If people come to conclusion that "there is no god" is rational answer with no contrary evidence, you can not disreard it as a belief and be done with it.

      Simply put, using word "lack of faith" makes you insulting asshat.

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    90. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "Did you forget what site you are on? This is Slashdot, any pro atheist comment gets +5 informative/insightful and anything discussing not just a Religion, but contemplation of a "Creator" gets you -234 Flamebait/Troll."

      Most of slashdot would have no problem with the hypothesis of a creator if it wasn't tangled in with the mysticism of religions we know are not from any higher intelligence. The problem with your opinion is the vast overwhelming majority of 'creator believers' are religious, i.e. they get their idea of what caused life/the universe to exist from a source people more intelligent then you know to be false. Many of whom were raised in such religions and outgrew them and found them wanting due to the amount of thought, effort and struggle to free themselves from the lies they were taught.

      That means people who espouse such beliefs are getting their beliefs from a source that is known to be filled with lies and nonsense that is not true. Maybe, just maybe, people look down on religious people for their lack of effort they put into disproving their own beliefs? To pursue truth you must want to ask the question, how can this be false? That's what a good truth seeker does. Religious people do the opposite, they take a belief and then build mountains of bad thinking on top of their feelings.

      Their feelings are not checked by an honest appraisal of the evidence but dis-ingenuousness wish fulfillment they call 'faith' run amok. The reason why many people are so hostile is because religious people who make such statements like yourself are oblivious to their own errors and mistakes of thought. Many used to try to reason with such people, but many such peoples minds are too far gone. They are incapable of seeing their own errors and thinking straight. Hence many people on slashdot downvote such comments because it shows at the very least, an immense amount of intellectual dishonesty or not anywhere near enough time spent actually reading the bible itself and other works of critical thinking.

      Religious belief in creator is the equivalent of fox news to intelligent people on the planet. Nerds tend to be disbelievers because - I know you might find this hard to believe, many of them came from homes and were former believers themselves at one point. So maybe, just maybe. They are more aware then you of how false religion really is.

    91. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But religion persists as a reason for these acts as it is so intangible that it is almost impossible to 'pin against the wall' and argue against.

      In a non-religious world, someone speaking to an ethereal being that no-one else can see is crazy.
      In a religious world, they are 'touched by god' and are elevated to a much greater social status than they should ever have been given, and (given the right circumstances) will exert great influence over many people.

      At least with a belief structure based much more in logic and truth, you might have a fighting chance of enacting the correct social change if you can prove it.

      I also believe that it wouldn't fix the world's problems, but getting rid of religion would be removing ONE of the world's major problems, which is a start.

    92. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Tom · · Score: 1

      In reality, there were a hundred or so priests over a couple of decades engaged in the acts and probably a few hundred higher level clergy (bishop/cardinal/pope) that knew about the crimes and facilitated the cover ups. Meanwhile, the billion or so (roughly) Catholics had no idea so could not have learned from the example.

      So we are simply talking about different n. For you, the base sum is all catholics, while for me it is the priesthood. On which it seems we both agree even the highest levels were involved.

      And incidentally, yes you can be jailed for being a member of organized crime, even if you claim (truthfully or not) that you knew nothing about it.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    93. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Do you not believe in it, or are you, as you stated, just skeptical? That would make you an agnostic.

      Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Are you just skeptical about it? Are you a-flyingspaghettimonster-ist or just agnostic?

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    94. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by green+is+the+enemy · · Score: 1

      That point, I very much agree with you on though I don't perceive the person you responded to was joking.

      Yeah, the wording was not historically accurate, nor 100% serious either. I was trying to make a point that government is not working well because it relies too much on the people in it being ethical. My opinion is that the type of government we currently have is not necessarily a total failure. Instead of drastically downsizing it and cutting social programs, we should consider introducing more checks against corruption. I kind of know what to expect from the libertarians here on Slashdot, so I'm not eagerly awaiting the alternative opinion (or more flame). That path has been tread many times before on this site.

    95. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      "Religion does not cause poverty and misery."
      telling people to keep copulating and having children or they won't get a place in their heaven causes a lot of poverty and misery.

      Well, yes, but only if people listen. People only seem listen to religion's "advice" about family planning or the lack thereof in countries where there is no pension system and women aren't allowed into the work force, which pretty much means that the pension system is giving birth to at least two sons who can provide for you when you are too old to work.

    96. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      The fact that you think that supernaturalism and religion are synonymous demonstrates that you don't understand religion very well. Atheism just means not a theist -- 'a' is a prefix that means 'not.' If you don't believe in God but you believe in ghosts, you're an atheist. Sure, some religions incorporate supernaturalism -- fundamentalist Christians and some variants of Hinduism, for example -- but many do not and supernaturalism isn't a necessary component of religion. Zen Buddhism, Taoism, non-fundamentalist Christianity, and non-Orthodox Judaism are a couple examples.

      A common trend you'll see among the religious -- that the stupid also believe in the supernatural -- you'll see among atheists as well. An atheist who believes that aliens built the pyramids is just as crazy as the Christian who believes that Jesus of Nazareth performed miracles. The crazies will be crazies, religion or no religion.

      Being skeptical of weird stuff doesn't mean one can't be religious so that's not a valid definition of atheism. Atheism is a strict belief that any form of theism is incorrect. That may not be a very complicated (or rational) belief system, but it's still a belief system.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    97. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      Or it represents the majority opinion, but you surely wouldn't allow yourself to accept that now, would you

      There's no '-1 disagree' option in moderation.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    98. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by cusco · · Score: 1

      it's not a lack of anything

      Well, perhaps a lack of gullibility . . .

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    99. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by cusco · · Score: 1

      My 1980s biology textbook has the rather startling fact that the worldwide spending on finding a cure or treatment for malaria, at that time the world's largest killer by far, was $8 million. The spending on just cancer research in just the United States that same year was over $500 million. The Gates Foundation should be long remembered for its efforts at spurring research on malaria remediation alone, even if it did nothing else.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    100. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by N0Man74 · · Score: 1

      Atheism is not a "tenet". It is simply the lack of faith in the supernatural.

      A tenet may be a belief. Lack of faith in the supernatural (God, gods, whatever) is the central tenet of atheism. Like it or not, the thing that atheism has in common with religion is that both are belief systems.

      Atheists don't sit around actively disbelieving; they just don't actively believe. The thing that most theists tend to not understand about atheists is that we mentally categorize the invisible man in the sky with things like fairies, unicorns, and the modern moderate republican.

    101. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I'm not really nitpicking, but pointing out some very obvious issues with your points. Studying is a time consuming task, but important for the debate. If you study the concepts of Capitalism and the US form of Government your arguments are simply incorrect.

      I was trying to make a point that government is not working well because it relies too much on the people in it being ethical.

      Would this statement not be true for _any_ government to work for the benefit of the members of society instead of the minority in power? British Parliament for example has the same reliance on ethical people holding votes as the US does.

      My opinion is that the type of government we currently have is not necessarily a total failure. Instead of drastically downsizing it and cutting social programs, we should consider introducing more checks against corruption.

      Those two sentences contradict each other. Our Government worked for a long time because it was designed where the Federal Government was very small and easy to have oversight on. Our "type" of Government is based on Socrates definition of "The Republic" as recorded by Plato. If you study that work, then read the Federalist Papers, Constitution, and Bill of Rights things should make sense.

      In other words, out Government currently is not the "type" it was designed to be. Our Government was designed as the rudder of a ship, and what we have now is the Government trying to be the whole ship and most of the water the ship is sitting in. It can't work that way and remain a Democratic Republic. You don't fix it by simply adding more checks to the system. We already have checks in Government and those also have become too big to be effective. The whole purpose of the GSA for example is accountability. Maybe you heard about these guys throwing lavish parties on your tax dollars, and if not, well, you can read up on it.

      I kind of know what to expect from the libertarians here on Slashdot, so I'm not eagerly awaiting the alternative opinion (or more flame). That path has been tread many times before on this site.

      I'm not sure how it's expected to be a rational debate when there is little to no rational arguments. If you had given more accurate information people would have difficulty flaming you. Where people on both sides turn to the flame wars is because neither side relies on the truth in their arguments, but rather false information, fabricated history, and wild fallacies.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    102. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      No, we are not talking about a different "n". You claimed that every Catholic was learning by example that pedophilia was "right". Now you moved the mark and claimed it was just the priests, which would still be incorrect as there are probably a million or so priests and the majority had no idea the crimes were happening. Many priests left the clergy when they found out what was happening, and the majority of clergy was just as outraged as the rest of us when the can of worms was opened.

      Your logic would still be wrong for all of the Bishops and Cardinals where there are many tens of thousands of those, and a very small percentage (less than .1%) was complicit in the cover up and knowledge of what was happening.

      Reread your last statement, its nonsense as written. I gave a correct analogy which you did not or can not counter. A person can not learn by osmosis, which is what you are still trying to claim. You don't have to like the fact, but the fact is that you are biased to a point of being irrational. If you don't like being irrational, you can work to change it. Hell, I have spent decades contemplating my own biases and trying to get rid of them (with a reasonable amount of success).

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    103. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Probably because one can't discuss religion without making some massively irrational statements. That's the whole issue: religion is based on assumptions, and when one tries to use those assumptions in the real world, in the presence of others, they will be called into question. And quite rightly so.

    104. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by dave420 · · Score: 1

      They all replaced religion with a new religion featuring them as the figurehead.

    105. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Was it Roman law that it was 12? Curious to your resource if that is true since I have never seen the Roman Law on age. Most other societies near the time of Rome had no fixed age for marriage. Jewish society said that "Children" could not be married, but then as now the onset of puberty varies which would have marked a person as a "youth".

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    106. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      So the Philosophical question "Does the Universe require a Creator?" is nonsense, irrational, has no purpose, or has been answered? Perhaps you have no interest in the question, however that question does have bearing on ethics and morality. Theology at least from the perspective of "The Noble Lie" is a valid line of questioning and reason.

      Sounds like you have a lot of bias and would not be able to discuss these concepts fairly, so I won't go further than pointing out that your statement is full of bias.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    107. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you go this way, never forget to count two towns full of civilians blasted by nuclear fire.

    108. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by green+is+the+enemy · · Score: 1

      Thanks for your replies. I can't agree with you on everything, but that's fine. The government we currently have is mainly a function of what the people have voted for over the centuries. It is a bit pointless to argue about what it was designed to do at the very beginning. The people living today are the ones responsible for their government.

      Clearly there is a difference between how the US government and most European governments are structured. Europeans tend to get better representation of the people in their governments. Perhaps it is due to proportional representation or other differences in the way elections are conducted. The US electoral system does seem outdated in comparison (but really hard to change). And the Europeans also tend to have large governments financing social safety nets, while still managing to keep corruption low. I'm guessing your opinion is that the Europeans are better educated, and so able to construct better governments. I can't really argue against that. I think it is more or less true that the people get the government they deserve.

    109. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Wish I had mod points, that is easily the best analysis of the existence of religion I've seen yet.

      I would point out something though- the Christian Fanatics during the Crusades were reacting to 600 years worth of attacks by religious fanatic Islamic extremists- and they failed because they were less fanatical than their counterparts. In a war of fanaticism, the crazy always wins.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    110. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Given what has happened to the European Union economically in the last 10 years, and what has happened to the Japanese in the last 20, I can't call either "doing quite well".

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    111. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      "READ MY LIPS. Being skeptical of weird stuff is not a "belief system" just a rational mind doing its work."

      Says the fanatical extremist believer in skepticism.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    112. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      If you take my rudder vs. ship example you can see the issue I have with your arguments. That people are convinced that Government needs to be a big ship does not make it correct. People need to understand the rudder analogy and push for those changes to reign in what we have now in Government. If people have been duped over a long period of time or a short period of time makes no difference. The purpose needs to go back to being a rudder.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    113. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Darby · · Score: 1

      Do you not believe in it, or are you, as you stated, just skeptical? That would make you an agnostic. It's true that agnostics don't have a belief system, as by definition they don't know what to believe. Atheists are another matter.

      So completely wrong and people are modding this insightful?!?

      A skeptic and an agnostic are not the same thing.
      An agnostic is not defined anything like "they don't know what to believe".

      An agnostic is one who thinks that it is not possible to know whether or not there is a god.
      A gnostic thinks that it is possible to know whether or not there is a god.
      Gnosticism speaks to what can be known, it doesn't say anything about belief.

      So if you think it's impossible to know whether or not god exists, but choose to believe that he does, then you are an agnostic theist.
      If you think that it is possible to know that (whether or not you actually do know) and choose not to believe, then you are a gnostic atheist.

      The other two combinations are left as an exercise for the reader which I would suggest you actually do since you are this badly informed on the topic

        "As a defense mechanism, they attempt insults or ridicule, rather than engage in reasonable debate."

      That's known as projection on your part.

    114. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Tom · · Score: 1

      You claimed that every Catholic was learning by example that pedophilia was "right".

      You want to read that into my words. So are we here to win an argument and imaginary points or is this going somewhere?

      A person can not learn by osmosis, which is what you are still trying to claim.

      There's a difference between osmosis and example. Again, you are twisting my words in order to win an argument.

      My original point was very simple: You don't have to read something from a book to teach it. Behaving in a certain way teaches people that this behaviour is ok, without anyone explicitly stating it.

      In the catholic church, the fact that these crimes were covered up by the highest levels certainly sent the message that they were acceptable. I didn't say "good" anywhere - there is also tolerance. Here's a less political example: Everyone drives 10 above the speed limit where I live. Literally, everyone. You're honked at if you drive the speed limit. Nowhere in any book does it say that 10 above is legal. Few would go on record saying it's the right way to drive. But everyone does it, because it is widely accepted. And new drivers quickly learn it as being the norm.

      When you're a catholic priest and you rape a dozen kids, and nothing at all happens, and ten years later someone learns about it within the church and their official reaction is to move you to a different country so you can't be prosecuted - that doesn't exactly teach you that you were wrong, does it? The rest of society pretty much agrees that the proper way to teach you this was wrong is 20 years in the slammer, not a promotion.

      Am I biased? You bet I am. That doesn't mean I'm wrong.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    115. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I read Am I biased? You bet I am. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. and I have to laugh. You admit that you are biased so your vision of right and wrong is by definition skewed. Your appeal to emotion and denial of your own words shows how delusional bias can make a person.

      I have no patience for bigots that deny facts to support their beliefs. Have fun in what ever fantasy land you are living in.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    116. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Tom · · Score: 1

      You read what you want to read.

      That I am biased doesn't make me wrong. It doesn't make me right, either. But it is stupid to attempt to derive truth out of the fact that someone - omg! - happens to have an opinion.

      You admit that you are biased so your vision of right and wrong is by definition skewed

      Merriam-Webster defines bias as ": a strong interest in something or ability to do something", among other things. There is an element of prejudice in bias. But wherever you get your definition from is a fantasy land of pure logic that doesn't exist. You are biased, too. Maybe less strongly, certainly less obviously, and definitely less openly.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    117. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Amazing that someone with a 3 digit ID can't read a dictionary. Either that or you are so defensive to your asinine belief that you refuse to look at simple fact.

      bias bs/ noun noun: bias;plural noun: biases 1. prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.

      No more nicety, no more discussion. Go pound some sand bigot!

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    118. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by tragedy · · Score: 1

      The wikipedia article on marriage in ancient rome has a quote:

      Later the jurist Ulpian wrote on the Lex Julia et Papia, “Only those women with whom intercourse is not unlawful can be kept in concubinage without the fear of committing a crime”.[45] He also said that “anyone can keep a concubine of any age unless she is less than twelve years old.

      So, that pretty strongly indicates that the permissable age for sex (not going to call it the age of consent, because consent certainly didn't have much to do with it in many arranged marriages) was typically 12 years old. Once again, this would have varied depending on the times, although it probably didn't go higher than 12. Naturally it would also vary depending on who was getting married. For marriages that were important for business or political reasons, exceptions surely would have been made.

    119. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      The Soviet union based their belief structure, education, and economics on logic and science and engineering, and outdid Hitler with body count

    120. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Entropius · · Score: 1

      The bits of the EU that are worst off are the more religious bits, incidentally.

    121. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by Tom · · Score: 1

      Amazing how you turned away more and more from discussing an argument to personal attacks, ignoring and dropping the points you couldn't refute at every step, until there's just 3 lines left. Your next response, if you have one left at all, will probably be less than one sentence.

      It's been enlightening. :-)

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    122. Re:Most of the problems listed have a single cause by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Nice catch! Thanks for the response and information.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  2. Fan of capitalism by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course someone who made a lot of money helping a lot of other people make a lot of money helping millions of people have jobs to do. While pissing off the largest portion of the readership here due to quality of the product. I'm pretty sure this isn't going to get a fair shake here on Slashdot.

    --
    Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    1. Re:Fan of capitalism by Tailhook · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure this isn't going to get a fair shake here on Slashdot.

      About 75% of the readers will go apoplectic and started bleeding from the ears when they hit the "capitalism" part.

      So yeah, let the hate-fest begin.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    2. Re:Fan of capitalism by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Funny

      Microsoft hating is soooo 90's, and we didn't know how good we had it back then. With the NSA around, why bother to get upset about bad software?

    3. Re:Fan of capitalism by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure this isn't going to get a fair shake here on Slashdot.

      No, no, I'm willing to be fair about this. Now that the web has such rich functionality, let's say he takes an important flagship product and makes the core functionality available easily to the poor over the web, so anybody could use it as long as they have some basic internet access.

      It wouldnt need a lot of enterprise features, just something that people can use to perform basic functions. Start with a word processor and a spreadsheet, and make it possible for poorer users to maintain data without having to own and maintain their own hardware.

      Only relatively richer people can afford that right now, and even if it wouldn't make that much of a difference, it would be a place to get started, and could be implemented by paying a few developers, maybe even the ones who contributed to the original products.

    4. Re:Fan of capitalism by brainboyz · · Score: 1

      Try again. He's shed a large chunk of his wealth into charity. If I remember correctly, most of his wealth is invested to make money to give to charity and provide a continuous income stream for charity.
      http://www.davemanuel.com/net-worth/bill-gates/

    5. Re:Fan of capitalism by icebike · · Score: 1

      His aid does not cross borders if the government has decided public research paid for by taxpayers should not be locked up by mega-corps.

      Citation needed.
      If you look at what the Gates Foundation does, and where they do it I think you will find yourself guilty of a cheap shot of the most misguided kind.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    6. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      the poor .. anybody could use it as long as they have some basic internet access.

      I don't know if you're familiar with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, but he's aiming at people a couple of rungs farther down on Maslow's pyramid than that. I don't give too many fucks about the performance of Office365 when I have fucking malaria, you know?

    7. Re:Fan of capitalism by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      the poor .. anybody could use it as long as they have some basic internet access.

      I don't know if you're familiar with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, but he's aiming at people a couple of rungs farther down on Maslow's pyramid than that. I don't give too many fucks about the performance of Office365 when I have fucking malaria, you know?

      Exactly. Products like solar-powered cell towers that also keep vaccines and medicines cool so that people can be immunized and low tech solutions to deal with the impacts of malaria are quite useful when most of your kids don't make it to adulthood, or even 5 yo.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    8. Re:Fan of capitalism by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Try again. He's shed a large chunk of his wealth into charity.

      Tax write-offs are beautiful things, ain't they?

      I'll believe the philanthropy when he puts all but a maybe one or two million bucks into charity (and even then only to live off that as a pension).

      Until then he's no different from any other human who craves headlines, relevance, and most of all, influence.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    9. Re:Fan of capitalism by Bogtha · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem I have with Bill Gates is essentially the broken window fallacy. Microsoft had a stranglehold on the computer industry. They held back the computer industry by years. A decade even! In the web development industry alone, we're still shaped by the impact Internet Explorer 6 left - which was released in 2001, twelve years ago. What economic value would Be Inc. have brought? What charitable donations would have resulted from that company? Or Netscape? Or any of the tens of thousands of companies Microsoft had a deleterious impact upon?

      He has since spent some of the money he earned holding back some of the most important industries in the world trying to help people. That's good. He didn't have to do that. But people judge that work as if it stands alone. It doesn't. The work he does with the money he has comes at the expense of the tens of thousands of companies that were held back or destroyed by the illegal and monopolistic actions he took.

      I think it's unlikely that, economically speaking, the actions he took were a net win for society. Yes, once he had the money, he did good things with it. But the cost to society for him to obtain that money is far too high in my eyes. Higher than the value he brought.

      Essentially, he took it upon himself to be Robin Hood. He stole from the rich - Western society - to give to the poor. However I don't see any reason to believe that the theft he perpetrated - the value he stole from society - was less than the value he brought to society. And I don't think it was his right to commit those crimes to do those things.

      By all means, judge him for what he has brought to society. But you should not do that without judging him for all that he has took from society as well.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    10. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well I know if he gave me a couple of Million he sure would improve my world 100%

    11. Re:Fan of capitalism by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Try again. He's shed a large chunk of his wealth into charity.

      Tax write-offs are beautiful things, ain't they?

      I'll believe the philanthropy when he puts all but a maybe one or two million bucks into charity (and even then only to live off that as a pension).

      I thought that was his original stated goal way back when he first started raking in the billions.

      I'm not going to deplore his charitable actions, but there are a couple of alarms that go off. For example: " I don't have a magic formula for prioritizing the world's problems." No, and as such, he's also admitting he doesn't have a magic formula for solving the world's problems.

      Which is honest of him. but the corollary to that is that while he may not have the perfect (or even best) answer, he has a lot more influence over priorities and solutions than all but a few people on this Earth.

      Monopolies aren't just businesses. It's possible that because he has so much more cash to throw at problems than everyone else, he could even be doing harm by overwhelming other possible solutions.

    12. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Malaria doesn't exist in the first world to any extent due to better standard of living, nutrition etc. It does not need a "cure" that Pig Pharma and Bill can sell to the third world. Bill and his ilk just need to FOAD already.

      P.S. Wow epic Captcha " Vulture"

    13. Re:Fan of capitalism by davydagger · · Score: 2

      because microsoft is complicit in helping the feds set up monitoring.

      If Bill Gates wants to end capitalism it starts with microsoft and the exploitation of tech workers.

      I don't take anyone seriously who wants to end exploitation, but won't end or denounce the exploitation they participate in, or solicit first.

    14. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry but he is still a net drain on humanity he was before and he still is. He is not "giving" to the poor, everything has strings attached.

    15. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have missed his stump speeches when governments in some countries where going to start making their own vaccines. You are the one that is misguided, or more likely a turfer.

    16. Re:Fan of capitalism by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      because microsoft is complicit in helping the feds set up monitoring

      Along with a bunch of companies that geeks lionize.

      If Bill Gates wants to end capitalism

      Hell of a hypothetical there - he specifically said he didn't.

    17. Re:Fan of capitalism by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      It's possible that because he has so much more cash to throw at problems than everyone else, he could even be doing harm by overwhelming other possible solutions.

      What philanthropist, charitable organization or aid/relief agency isn't that true of?

    18. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, ya, Bill Gate's capitalism, is monopoly and ridiculous IP laws. Cue the BG apologists in... oh, I'm too late!

    19. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except no, his net worth has increased a lot since he started "donating" to charity. Most of the money he "donates" are investments that go right back into his pockets. This is a PR excercise.

    20. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really hate fest. The Capitalism he has in mind has very little resemblance to what mainstream Economic theory says what it is. In Capitalism, there will be blood -- of mostly Capitalists; most businesses die and those who live on do so on meager margins.

      Mr. Gates wouldn't have made this much money if the Capitalism wasn't redefined to suite the Capitalists, supported by Copyrights, Patents and you name it.

    21. Re:Fan of capitalism by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      So is your cell phone provider.. unless you've dropped your cellular service?

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    22. Re:Fan of capitalism by demachina · · Score: 1

      My concern with the Gates Foundation, like most of their ilk, is the paradox of doing good. Do the people who want to eradicate poverty, feed the world and cure all diseases ever stop to think what the long term consequences will be if they actually succeed?

      They are contributing to an eventual population crisis and a crash which will be ever more spectacular the longer we keep staving it off with tech.

      There should be an iron clad linkage that if you are going to be a do gooder that you are also going to figure out a way to insure all the people you are saving are going to stop having babies. Improving education and economic well being may eventually lead to this result but its slow and not a certain outcome.

      You simply can't keep delivering ship loads of food aid to cultures where couples insist on having 12 children whom they can't feed without ship loads of food aid.

      Religions like Catholicism and Islam who compel their flock to breed like rabbits are also doing this planet no favors. Many developed countries are finally starting to get their demographics under control, Japan and Russia are apparently heading towards demographic crashes. Unfortunately Africa, India and various parts of Asia are still breeding too fast for a planet that is being stretched to its breaking point, they need to stop.

      China'a one child policy, as ruthless as it is, is doing more good than anything the Gates foundation will ever do for the planet.

      --
      @de_machina
    23. Re:Fan of capitalism by JakartaDean · · Score: 1

      Monopolies aren't just businesses. It's possible that because he has so much more cash to throw at problems than everyone else, he could even be doing harm by overwhelming other possible solutions.

      It's possible but it's not currently happening. The types of things he's doing are, as he specifically states in the article, complementary to what others, largely governments, are doing. The point he doesn't mention in the article, but which I think is critical, is that some of the problems his foundation is tackling are bigger than anything governments can do. Infectious diseases cross borders, so are beyond the scope of any single national government to solve. The work on malaria builds on, and exceeds, anything a government can do. Philanthropy sometimes gets a bad name, even among those in the CSR field (where I work) but there are some things that can only be solved by huge philanthropic investments. Polio and malaria are among them.

      --
      The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
    24. Re:Fan of capitalism by icebike · · Score: 2

      So you didn't read the link I posted, just used it as a ladder to climb up on your soap box?

      Some of the biggest components of the Gates Foundation are Birth Control and Education.

      You know, people have been predicting that we will exceed the carrying capacity of the earth, and be forced to put more marginal land under the plow since Thomas Malthus, about two hundred years ago.

      Yet we are using LESS land these days, growing more food, and growing it cheaper. There is not a world wide shortage of food. (There are distribution problems).

      If a theory was wrong when it was first published, has been wrong for 200 years, don't you think its time to get a new theory?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    25. Re:Fan of capitalism by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1, Interesting

      He didn't rob from anybody, He exchanged value for value.

      The only transactions that are not a net win are when one is at the point of a gun. Bill Gates never pointed a gun at anyone.

      He didn't hold back anything. Industry flourished during the biggest part of the Microsoft heyday 90s and 00s.

      If there was no value in Microsoft products then people wouldn't buy them. Period. That was the choice I made in Dec of 1998. My Windows 98 box died (was probably a hard drive crash as I replaced it anyway) At that point I had played some with Linux and decided that it was what I wanted moving forward. That year, 1999, was my "Year of the Linux desktop"

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    26. Re:Fan of capitalism by doesnothingwell · · Score: 1

      By all means, judge him for what he has brought to society. But you should not do that without judging him for all that he has took from society as well.

      I can only wish Bill Gates wakes up in the middle of the night screaming "I'm not a douche bag" at least once.

      --
      They can have my command prompt when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
    27. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only transactions that are not a net win are when one is at the point of a gun. Bill Gates never pointed a gun at anyone.

      No, he didn't point a gun at people, but he DID point a gun at their data that were locked in proprietary MS formats. Vendor lock-in happens when the cost of losing old data becomes higher than short-term benefits of switching to a superior product. (Even if the long-term benefits are much higher than the cost of switching, they're rarely taken into account when the decision whether to switch or not is being made.)

    28. Re:Fan of capitalism by nukenerd · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Arson Smith wrote :-

      [Gates] didn't rob from anybody, He exchanged value for value.

      He robbed me by making me pay for pre-loaded copy of Windows when I bought a PC, a copy I did not use. No "value-for-value" there.

      The only transactions that are not a net win are when one is at the point of a gun. Bill Gates never pointed a gun at anyone.

      You don't need a gun to force people to do things. Like "buy Windows or you can't have a PC"

      If there was no value in Microsoft products then people wouldn't buy them.

      People can buy things because they are forced to (see above), or because they are ignorant. You should read this The Grantham Grocer Fallacy

    29. Re:Fan of capitalism by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      You know, people have been predicting that we will exceed the carrying capacity of the earth, and be forced to put more marginal land under the plow since Thomas Malthus, about two hundred years ago. Yet we are using LESS land these days, growing more food, and growing it cheaper.

      Extrapolate the earth's population growthand it reaches to infinity, and approaching it faster and faster. You think the earth's (or the Universe's) resources are infinite? Would you admit there was a limit when the entire mass of the Universe has been turned into human biomatter? From where I am, it looks like Malthus's prediction is on course. As for using less land, that seems pretty unlikely, considering that around 1813 the mid-west of the USA and most of South America was natural prairie, now farmed.

      You also say nothing about the quality of life. I don't want to live in a pod like some Japanese do, with nowhere to go for peace and quiet. Fine if you like to spend all your time in crowded parties; I don't.

    30. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What broken window? There is no business, ever, which has become large and successful without negative externalities. The cost to society was to put Windows + other M'soft products on people's desks, vs. other options.That's not ideal, but hardly enough to override the positive effects of business + his philanthropy. Name one other large business which has unarguably supported competition and induced only positive externalities.

    31. Re:Fan of capitalism by dave420 · · Score: 1

      The less likely a couple's children are to die before they grow up, the more children they have. An increase in food, health, education, and so on means birth rates will decrease, not explode and take over the world.

    32. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gates reminds me of John Lennon. When he was doing what he had a talent for, he really did enrich the world. Since he's decided his business is saving the world, he's done little but make a fool of himself.

    33. Re:Fan of capitalism by Your.Master · · Score: 2

      If you got Windows pre-loaded, there's a fair chance that you paid *negative* dollars for it. Using made-up numbers, if Dell puts Windows on the PC for $25 bucks, then gets paid $10 for each piece of crapware they pre-install on it, and they put 3 items of crapware there, the cost to Dell was -$5, so the cost to you should be down, not up, and you didn't have to suffer any of the crapware because as you say, you didn't use Windows in the first place.

      The people distributing crapware got boned, though.

      This would also be why Microsoft didn't try much harder to stop the crapware preloads, which Microsoft *knows* cause a lot of pain for their users and endless nightmares. It's a Faustian deal for them. They suffered through it for years because that's how they can compete on price with free software.

      I don't know for your particular case, or most particular cases. I know it's a pattern that existed. You see the phenomenon when the big players sometimes flirt with Linux preinstalls, and Slashdot flips their shit because they sometimes charge *more* for the same system configuration except Linux preinstalled instead of Windows.

      In this new world of tablets, I'm not sure that trend still exists (not sure it doesn't, either, though obviously Microsoft's own products don't fill up with 3rd party BS for a discount, only 1st party BS that everybody gets).

    34. Re:Fan of capitalism by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      I have never recalled an era in history where I couldn't buy a PC without Windows, or when there weren't other OS options available (perhaps you're from an alternate universe where this was once the case). The only times I have ever bought one was when I could get a PC with Windows CHEAPER than I could buy one without. I hardly consider that robbery.

      My first PC was custom built with OS/2 Warp. My second was custom built with Red Hat Linux. My third came with Windows, but I only bought it because I didn't feel like building my own (or buying one custom built) that time, and it was cheaper than the custom built one. My most recent one was an Apple. AFAIK, Bill Gates and MS have never "stolen" anything from me. And the only time I have felt forced to use Windows was when I was gaming (and that was because of the game developers, NOT Microsoft).

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    35. Re:Fan of capitalism by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      The less likely a couple's children are to die before they grow up, the more children they have. An increase in food, health, education, and so on means birth rates will decrease

      I think you meant "more likely" there not "less likely", to make sense. Taking your point as corrected, there is wishful thinking there. It depends on the culture. In some cultures, the number of sons you have is a status symbol and a supposed statement of your virility (never mind that any one male orgasm produces enough sperm to fertilise every woman in the world). Also in some cultures the numbers of kids you have = the number of slaves at your disposal (and maybe the size of your private urban gang).

      Increased healthcare/wealth/food/whatever will be taken in these cultures as a chance to have even more children. Osama Bin Laden's father had 56 children, and I don't believe it was because he was short of heath care.

    36. Re:Fan of capitalism by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

      Start with a word processor and a spreadsheet, and make it possible for poorer users to maintain data without having to own and maintain their own hardware.

      Isn't that what Google Drive is doing?

      --
      "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    37. Re:Fan of capitalism by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      That was actually my point, unnecessarily made in a roundabout way. It took Google to make a Microsoft product available to a wider group in the way that Gates is asking for. When I hear him sing their praises for doing that, I'll reevaluate his intentions.

    38. Re:Fan of capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there was no value in Microsoft products then people wouldn't buy them. Period.

      Buying a Microsoft product was (and is) like buying a dog. You get good things, such as affection. You also get shit on the carpets. We just want Microsoft to stop shitting on the carpets. Unlike the dog, they had (and have) a choice.

    39. Re:Fan of capitalism by icebike · · Score: 1

      The more likely a couple's children are to die before they grow up, the more children they have. An increase in food, health, education, and so on means birth rates will decrease, not explode and take over the world.

      Fixed it to what I think you meant.

      And this has been proven true all over the world, even high birthrate countries like China, where the better off affluent educated seldom seem to get into a problems with with the country's draconian birth regulations but the country bumpkins still do.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    40. Re:Fan of capitalism by davydagger · · Score: 1

      because I, the worker, have no choice in buying services, I am just as complicit in setting up systems of exploitment I have NO CONTROL of changing.

      the diffrence is Bill Gates has not only the economic status, but social, and political status to change the system. I do not.

    41. Re:Fan of capitalism by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you got this notion from but it's largely false. Dell and others added a nominal charge to each machine to cover the cost of Windows. I believe it was about $35. The crapware was to pad profits on the machine because margins on hardware are very low. Even if you told them you didn't want Windows or anything installed, you still had to pay for it. In essence, everyone paid a Microsoft tax to buy a pre-built machine. Microsoft had an undeclared monopoly with all the benefits and none of the penalties. It took forever for the government to catch up and put a stop to it but by then the damage was done and lots of companies were laid waste by Microsoft and they anti-competitive business practices. They even paid the publishers of the day to talk about how wonderful their software was and how all of their competitors pretty much sucked.

      In short, they're evil fuckheads and they'd still be doing all of this shit if they could get away with it.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    42. Re:Fan of capitalism by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      I have never recalled an era in history where I couldn't buy a PC without Windows,.............. (perhaps you're from an alternate universe where this was once the case). ...My first PC was custom built with OS/2 Warp. My second was custom built with Red Hat Linux. My third came with Windows, but I only bought it because I didn't feel like building my own.......My most recent one was an Apple.

      So you concede that the only PC's you have owned without having to buy Windows are ones you built yourself. I concede that you can buy an Apple (or Chromebook) without Windows, if you stretch the definition of a PC that far.

      My alternate universe is the UK. Here it has not been possible to buy a PC without Windows, except from one or two specialist builders where everything is bespoke and you pay accordingly. I have seen no mainstream or High Street retailer in the UK where you could buy a PC without Windows since about 1995.

  3. Problems the poor world faces, hm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " turn more of the world's IQ toward devising solutions to problems that only people in the poor world face. '

    Like the US and Imperialist Europe and their economic manipulation/hegemony? Great, get to work Bill.

    1. Re:Problems the poor world faces, hm... by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Like the US and Imperialist Europe and their economic manipulation/hegemony?

      It's always so much easier to blame "them", and ignore the problems that many 3rd world countries have created for themselves.

  4. Socialism vs. Capitalism by wrackspurt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am a devout fan of capitalism. It is the best system ever devised for making self-interest serve the wider interest.

    The argument can be made that capitalism widens the divide between rich and poor. The old question remains whether unbridled capitalism and philanthropy can better address the world's woes, or, would a more socialist political structure like those seen in Scandinavian countries better address and more quickly narrow the divide.

    1. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by operagost · · Score: 2

      The argument can be made that capitalism widens the divide between rich and poor.

      Yeah, like he said in the summary. But you were rushing in too quickly with your "government solves everything, even though it's made up of the people we think are too greedy to handle their own money properly, much less other people's" ideology.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    2. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The bit you quoted continues on with "market-driven innovation can actually widen the gap between rich and poor" so that's hardly a surprising argument.

      But really why does the divide matter? Aside from that people are greedy and jealous and are happier when other people are less well off.

      If we pick some arbitrary unit of "richness", then if capitalism ends up making 1% of the people have 1,000.000 such units while the poor have only 100. Why would that be worse than an alternative in which the 1% only have 120 units and the poor have 90? If capitalism makes the gap larger but also raises the minimum - surely that's better than a system with a lower minimum but a more even distribution?

      Note: I'm not actually claiming capitalism does such a thing. I'm just don't see why "the gap" is a problem in and of itself. A smaller piece of a larger pie can be better than a bigger price of a small pie...

    3. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A thought just occurred to me on the subject improving the world. I don't disagree that the a more socialist structure does more to ensure that the basic needs of the lowest rung in their society are met. Many countries have show this with plenty of gradient in between. What though, of the the lowest rung of other countries? The US is often seen as throwing its money away on defense when it should be helping its poor but where are Sweden's aircraft carriers providing supplies and air support for natural disasters in Asia? Nuclear weapons move us every closer to destruction but how much has Norway done to explore other planets? If we want to talk in arguments of scale we have to compare the US to the EU, many nations of which have been able to feed social programs for their own citizens while outsourcing defense, intelligence, and a large amount of research and aid spending to a nation that they mock for not providing free healthcare and secondary education.

      Maybe the socialist mindset works better at focusing people inward, maybe immigration backgrounds, not capitalism, focus more attention outward. Perhaps it's just a coincidence, part of the law of unintended consequences.

    4. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, the more socialist structures like the Scandanavian countries survive off the capitalism elsewhere in the world.
      Capitalism works fine, most all governments able to spend more than they take in, not so much.
      When capitalism cannot support even the USA govt, someone is fucking things up, and it ain't private businesses.

    5. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because anarchy will just make things better, of course.

      Seriously, stop buying into this "government is evil!" propaganda -- governments have problems, like anything else, but they're the only mechanism we've really come up with to control any of this stuff. About the most that can be sanely argued is that the current governmental structure is poor, so we need a new one.... Which is pretty much what the GP said, when referring to the political institutions seen in parts of Europe being preferable in their opinion.

      You institute structures similar to those those, along with non-governmental organizations that stand for workers' rights (i.e., unions -- a form of 'checks and balances'), and you'll get a system that's a heck of a lot more equal than the current one. Hell, the libertarian morons who like throwing around the term "meritocracy" would also get much closer to that out of such a system -- the current system has the business owners exploiting their workers, and acquiring several times the money from each worker's labour than those workers are paid. In a real "meritocracy", those workers would be getting paid the majority of that (after all, it's the value that those workers are creating), such as happens in a co-op.

    6. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by green+is+the+enemy · · Score: 1

      Could we discuss this issue instead: Is it better to allocate your donations yourself, or to simply give it to the public (government) and let the public decide? What makes one think that they are better qualified to allocate public spending than elected representatives? (Yeah, you can make the argument that it's my money, I decide how to spend it. But, you already decided to donate it to public causes....)

    7. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Tom · · Score: 1

      > I am a devout fan of capitalism. It is the best system ever devised for making self-interest serve the wider interest.

      The argument can be made that capitalism widens the divide between rich and poor.

      Oh, please. Even addressing that point seriously is just stupid. Of course he's a fan of capitalism - it made him the richest man on the planet for many years.

      People at the top are significantly more likely to be fans of the system than people at the bottom. What a surprise!

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    8. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not actually claiming capitalism does such a thing.

      Good, because there is no evidence for it.

      I'm just don't see why "the gap" is a problem in and of itself. A smaller piece of a larger pie can be better than a bigger price of a small pie...

      Two reasons. First, nobody believes your hypothetical any more than you do. Second, when income disparity goes beyond a certain point, many people start to think it's unfair. There are even theories that a dislike of unfairness is innate to a large degree (toddlers display it, including acting fair towards their peers), and a sense of fairness serves a social purpose. If you think that's childish, consider this. Your rich Uncle Ned dies, and his only heirs are his three nephews. You're one of them. You and Bob each get $1k. Dave, who always treated Uncle Ned like crap, gets $1B. Do you have any cause for complaint? If so, why? You are $1k better off than you were before.

    9. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I large gap ties up the money supply at one end of the population. This in turn makes the economy dysfunctional. Last time the gap was where it is now was in the 1920s.

    10. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The argument can be made?" Indeed. The argument has been made, thoroughly exposed, and proved to an irrefutable point. Capitalism is the division between the rich and the poor. Acumulation and centralisation of wealth on one hand, and explointation by means of unpaid labour on the other. And philanthropy won't help it. Besides, as Oscar Wilde pointed out, using the private property you acquired by exploiting the poor to ease the misery caused by that very system of exploitation is immoral.

    11. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      silly me, I thought capitalism made a middle class in my country

    12. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by poity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How many times will misinformed people trot out this crap? Scandinavian countries are, to the last one, all capitalist free market economies. Capitalism and the laws that protect private property enable those countries' people to generate the excess wealth with which to fund their social welfare programs.

      Scandinavian countries are actually examples of "capitalism and philanthropy" being "better at addressing woes"

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    13. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's "your donations" you can allocate any way you wish. You were smart enough to accumulate it in the first place, you're probably smart enough to know how to distribute it.

    14. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Capitalism was designed and discussed as the economic form for this shiny new "Democratic Republic" form of Government. They have to go hand in hand, or you miss the whole point. The principles in Capitalism are very sound, just like the principles of a Democratic Republic are sound. Government is not the answer to the problems, but needs to be a regulating and enforcement body when things get out of hand. Adam Smith was pretty clear that for Capitalism to work, monopolies could not be allowed to be formed. Well, if that whole concept has not gone to hell in a hand basket because our corrupt Government is not doing their job.

      So I agree that "Government" does not solve all problems, but some Government is needed to keep _any_ economy from going to the shitter. Too much, or a corrupt Government gets us to the shitter much faster, as the last 30 years of economic disparity charts easily show.

      To the AC that follows, there is no magic bullet in a Government agency. Don't just listen to Adam Smith, but Milton Friedman who says the same things with a more modern twist.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    15. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Modded down again. Clearly I have blasphemed against the God of the Free Market.

    16. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Smart enough or crooked enough? There is a big difference, and a person can get rich either way.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    17. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > But you were rushing in too quickly with your "government solves everything"

      Way to go with that strawman attack! Because clearly if he disagrees, that means he must believe the extreme polar opposite to what you said, right?

    18. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by wrackspurt · · Score: 1
      I was thinking generally more along the lines of progressive taxation and wealth distribution. Tax in Norwaysuggests wealth distribution is dealt with by way of progressive taxation. While I don't have any numbers on hand and I'm too lazy to round some up, I'll go out on a limb, and suggest the taxation systems in Scandinavian countries is much more progressive than in the U.S.A.

      The relatively high tax level is a result of the large Norwegian welfare state. Most of the tax revenue is spent on public services such as health services, the operation of hospitals, education and transportation.

      Wikipedia

    19. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the American...

    20. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I don't know which country is your country, but the middle class continues to dwindle in the USA.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it were really so easy to start a business, then why didn't the "undervalued" workers do it themselves rather than work for the "exploitative" business owners? Then they could have kept all the profits as you suggest. Maybe it's because it's not as easy as you flippantly proclaim, and because you overvalue the contributions of lower-tier employees and undervalue the contributions of entrepreneurs. Luckily for us you don't run the economy.

    22. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is this rated insightful? GP wrote "more socialist". And this is obviously true. The point being that the world is not black and white, and socialist elements can benefit a society a lot.
      If your point is that only capitalism and free markets can create wealth, this is clearly not true as history shows. It also has to be pointed out that capitalism and free markets are different things, and while free markets can be an extremely efficient tool to allocate resources (if regulated in a sensible manner), it is less clear that capitalism is necessary.

    23. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As though small population sizes in combination with wealth (oil and IKEA) have nothing to do with it?

    24. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Scandinavians agree it's the government's responsibility to oversee the society and enhance the well-being of all residents through laws and taxes. I don't see such thinking among the Americans.

      To a Scandinavian, capitalism is a tool. To an American, it is an axiom.

    25. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The argument can be made that capitalism widens the divide between rich and poor

      In capitalism, everyone gains, but the rich gain more, partly because they have capital to invest and partly because they keep having the traits and the environmental factors that made them more likely to gain wealth in the first place. Any system has such effects. A government can attempt to reduce the gap by transferring income or wealth from the rich to the poor (socialism), but this comes at the price of less growth for everyone: the rich can invest less (leading to less production and fewer jobs) and the poordo not gain any intrinsic capacity to provide for themselves, they are merely subsidised by other people's productivity.

    26. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30% minimum tax rate (Sweden) is not philanthropy.

    27. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The argument can be made that capitalism widens the divide between rich and poor. The old question remains whether unbridled capitalism and philanthropy can better address the world's woes, or, would a more socialist political structure like those seen in Scandinavian countries better address and more quickly narrow the divide.

      Corporations or the government - what's the difference? I'm betting on open knowledge and open designs. Not to replace governments and corporations completely but to make them afraid that we could if we wanted to.

    28. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one said that Scandinavian coutries are not market economies. They do however have a significant welfare state and tend to not only rely on market strategies but also inteligent longterm planning by the state (e.g. Norway). It's not about capitalsim vs communism anymore. But there are greate nuances between say English, U.S., German, Scandinavian capitalism. It seems to me that it is not clear which is best, there does not have to be a single optimal solution. But one can clearly not state that those states with a large welfare system, like Germany and Scandinivian countries, don't have avery dynamic and competitive economy. One of the many reasons is that a functioning wellfare system also allows entrepreneur to take some risks in terms of innovations.

    29. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm just don't see why "the gap" is a problem in and of itself. A smaller piece of a larger pie can be better than a bigger price of a small pie..."

      rationally I would agree. However there are some interesting behavioural expreiments with monkeys (and humans). If the gap is to large it is percieved as unfair, and actually causes chang in brain chemistry leading to an actually decrease in happieness.

    30. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note: I'm not actually claiming capitalism does such a thing. I'm just don't see why "the gap" is a problem in and of itself. A smaller piece of a larger pie can be better than a bigger price of a small pie...

      The gap is a problem because it limits the number of people who can do something to grow the whole pie. Also, even though the pie as a whole grows, all pieces below certain size may shrink in absolute numbers. Imagine a company grows the pie by 10% but gets 15% bigger slice out of it (both percentages from the same base). They have effectively eaten everything they added and then they've eaten another 5% from somebody else's plate on top.

    31. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This argument maks sense when people are treated differently under the same circumstances, but not when different people doing different work get different salaries.

    32. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by operagost · · Score: 1

      You forgot to mention Somalia.

      Why don't you stop using straw men, you blustering fool?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    33. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      The old question remains whether unbridled capitalism and philanthropy can better address the world's woes, or, would a more socialist political structure .. better address ...... the divide.

      While I dislike necessarily connecting this with "socialism", I don't think the question even remains. History tells us what happened under unbridled capitalism - take a look at the industrial areas of the UK before government regulation intervened to stop such excesses as children in coal mines and to impose minimum standards for drinking water and sanitation. Yes, there were a few philanthropic capitalists (or more likely their wives), but they were lone voices.

      It is clear fom Slashdot comments that Americans have a deep built-in phobia about anything done by government. No doubt this is rooted in the "free man" culture with which the USA was founded, the fact that the USA industialised after the worst period of laissez faire capitalist exploitation in Europe, and the myth of British tyrranic governance which fuelled the revolution; but it does gets beyond reason at times.

    34. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scandinavian countries are a miracle based on the culture phenomenon, not a socialism. It can only go so far till people realize that it is easier to just live on welfare than work for not much more. Fact that they live in small and very hermetic communities helps a lot - imagine sharing stuff with someone you know and like and on the opposite sharing with people you don't know at all and no-one cares for others do.

    35. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm just don't see why "the gap" is a problem in and of itself.

      When wealth and power are controlled by too small a number of people, you no longer have capitalism, you have an oligarchy. You lose the benefits of a free market and become a command economy. As the abuses get worse, the 99% get restless and eventually revolt. This happens again and again. Luckily, democracy allows that revolt to be bloodless.

    36. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a dislike of unfairness is innate to a large degree

      capuchin monkeys have it too.

    37. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Scandinavians agree it's the government's responsibility to oversee the society and enhance the well-being of all residents through laws and taxes. I don't see such thinking among the Americans.

      Try looking. Huge amounts of money (all tax dollars) get spent by the US government on research to better the condition of the human race, much of it long term research with no immediate economic benefit. Huge amounts of money get spent on education. Huge amounts of money go into the US Social Security system and the Medicare system (such things make up the lion's share of the US federal government's budget) to enhance the well being of all residents.

      Also, the USA has the Interstate Highway system, and the National Park System, both funded by taxes and protected by laws. There's also the state park system (some of the state parks, such as the Adirondack park, are larger than entire countries). There are enormous amounts of National Forest, overseen by the government for the public benefit.

      While we're on the subject of the environment, there are lots of environmental protection laws, and large agencies that work to enforce them. New cars sold in the US are some of the cleanest in the world, due to emissions regulations (it's very expensive to import a car from another country that isn't designed specifically for the US market, precisely because of the lack of such systems, meaning they have to be added after-market, with all the complexity that entails).

      Then we have the public library system, which is awesome in it's own right... The Inter-Library loan system allows one to get just about any printed book, and many libraries include DVDs in their holdings, available to the public just like books are.

      Then we have all the public agencies (federal and state) that support disaster recovery, and also those that work to prevent disasters in the first place (such as the weather service).

      If anything, European nations mooch quite a bit off work done in the USA. So-called "Socialist Medicine" couldn't even exist in Europe without all the capitalist underpinnings, let alone the medical research, much of which comes from work done in the USA. It's not the Socialist Medical systems that design and build the lion's share of the advanced test equipment needed to diagnose advanced medical issues, or research and produce the drugs needed to treat those issues, but rather the unwashed capitalists (many of them US capitalists).

      I realize all the cool kids are bashing Americans these days, but you might consider the value of getting a few facts first ...

      To a Scandinavian, capitalism is a tool. To an American, it is an axiom.

      Also completely wrong. Much of the political debate in the USA is about when it is reasonable to place limits on capitalism, and that has been true for at least a century. Many such limits have been implemented. Capitalism is certainly not an axiom to an American.

    38. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by redlemming · · Score: 1

      It is clear fom Slashdot comments that Americans have a deep built-in phobia about anything done by government. No doubt this is rooted in the "free man" culture with which the USA was founded, the fact that the USA industialised after the worst period of laissez faire capitalist exploitation in Europe, and the myth of British tyrranic governance which fuelled the revolution; but it does gets beyond reason at times.

      Wrong. Only a tiny minority of people in the USA would claim that the core services that government provides could or should be provided without government.

      Regulating capitalism, maintaining the roads, public education, providing or regulating public utilities, the police, long term medical and scientific research, maintaining public libraries, protecting public lands, and protecting the environment: all of these (within reason) are legitimate functions of government (as are doubtless many other things I haven't listed), and you will find relatively few people in the USA that dispute this.

      The problem is not that government is bad as an abstract concept, the problem is that government as realized in the USA is sometimes corrupt, is often excessively bureaucratic, and is sometimes just plain incompetent.

      Hence, there is no phobia about "anything" done by government, but rather there is deep concern about the current state of government.

      A government that is massively in debt, with an out-of-control legal system driven by ethical conflict of interest (and with an ever-increasing rate of abuse of fundamental rights), is not a government that generates much trust or goodwill.

      No amount of propaganda by the mainstream political parties and politicians can keep people from seeing the problems, but the fact that the propaganda exists in the first place makes people very suspicious that anything useful will be done to correct the problems. That's not a phobia, just plain common sense.

    39. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If capitalism makes the gap larger but also raises the minimum - surely that's better than a system with a lower minimum but a more even distribution?

      Note: I'm not actually claiming capitalism does such a thing. I'm just don't see why "the gap" is a problem in and of itself. A smaller piece of a larger pie can be better than a bigger price of a small pie...

      Good, because there is no evidence for it.

      Actually, there is substantial evidence supporting this. I expect you'll find a discussion of this in most introductory economics books. See, for example, "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell.

      In practice, in the USA at least, economic movement is quite common, and thus the concept of a "gap" between classes of people is quite misleading. Few people stay in poverty for their entire lives. Most people in the top 10% do not stay there for more than a few years, either. This is demonstrated by tax records and has been studied extensively by economists.

      Further, the standard of life for most people has improved considerably over the past century. Few people have no access to machines that take care of the nasty and time consuming tasks of life in the old days, such as washing clothes. Similarly, the public library system is simply awesome today, with much larger libraries having far more books, due to the lower relative cost of books (relative to inflation and available purchasing power), not to mention the increasing availability of DVDs and Internet in the public libraries. Thus, in terms of the actual purchasing power of people, and the availability to the public of many types of formerly rare resources, the "gap" is significantly smaller than the numbers might suggest to the uninformed. Many a noble of even Victorian Europe would envy the tools and resources available to the majority of people today.

      If we look at things from an international economics perspective, we find a similar result. Many countries in the so-called 3rd world have seen substantial improvements in the economic state of most of their citizens in the past century. Those countries where local conditions made the investment of capital by foreign investors a reasonable risk have tended to benefit the most. Again, read some good economics books for specific details.

      For yet another example, look at the case of China and India. In both cases, a large percentage of citizens have seen improvements to their quality of life with the switch of both countries from state controlled economies to a form of capitalism.

      Historically, you will also see this kind of economic movement, and the closing or reducing of former gaps, over many historical periods. People or families rarely stay at one economic level over the long term. For example, the land owning nobles of Europe were largely superseded by a capitalist merchant trading class (obtaining wealth from trade rather than land), supplemented by a class of industrialists (also capitalists). Lots of formerly wealthy nobles (consider, for example, England) lost their vast estates and privileged positions in the process, and the majority of people today are certainly far better off than the peasant of yore! You'll find discussions of this kind of thing in many history books, as the study of economic history is now included in most general histories.

      If one believes that limiting long term accumulation of wealth is a good thing, that can be accomplished without abandoning capitalism in the process. Reform of inheritance laws would go a long ways towards making this happen on a shorter time scale than it otherwise would.

    40. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a load of nonsense. Socialists are against redistribution of wealth.

    41. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      yes, because capitalism is being replaced by some other things. Big corporations with government in their pockets taking away people's rights and making a police state is not capitalism, that's called corporate fascism

    42. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I don't know, buying politicians for whatever the market will bear seems to me to be very capitalistic.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    43. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by pweidema · · Score: 1

      Is it better to allocate your donations yourself, or to simply give it to the public (government) and let the public decide?

      This! I am so tired of mega companies complaining about the state of education, while at the same time taking advantage of every tax dodge.

    44. Re:Socialism vs. Capitalism by green+is+the+enemy · · Score: 1

      I was hoping for strong counterarguments. Most people decide to allocate their donations themselves, so my argument must be really weak. (Perhaps weak enough for people just to ignore it..)

      Here are some of the weaker counters I can think of:

      "The government will squander your money. They are a bunch of corrupt fucks." Yeah, this is mostly true. But government spending is mostly recurring expenses that are not decided on a whim. Some of your money will go to finance science, infrastructure, the justice system, defense, and many other essential things we almost take for granted. Also, donations are tax deductible, so you are taking some money away from the government when allocating your donations yourself.

      "Allocating our public spending yourself gives you a real voice in how the money is spent, whereas the government are a bunch of puppets of the ruling elite and do not care about you very much." Yeah, this is also mostly true. However, democracy is usually loosely understood as "one man, one vote." If you make an average amount of money, your public donations are more-or-less democratic. If you are a billionaire like Bill Gates, suddenly you have a much greater amount of votes in this "democracy." Not that our actual government is very different from this..

      Any other points one way or the other?

  5. is this guy still relevant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought he retired.

    1. Re:is this guy still relevant by Jakeula · · Score: 1

      The dude still brings home like 5 billion a year. He's always relevant.

  6. Another alternative being "better?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And you assert he is wrong, because....? Jealousy, or just because rich people necessarily must be "evil" in order to further the cause of class warfare?

    1. Re:Another alternative being "better?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jealousy? Rich people are not evil, but are too often either disconnected or ethically ignorant, or just blind.:

      Its too easy to sanctify the system that got you filthy rich, and then sit idly on a lounge chair while coming up with Investments in Controversial Corporations.

      In bill's SPECIFIC case

      http://www.socialmasala.com/business/bill-gates-a-billionaire-with-controversies/

      http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/15/cimmyt-bill-gates-gm-crop-center_n_2695241.html

      I could go on, but you know the drill.

    2. Re:Another alternative being "better?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Juh-neh-diks is skarry! Just like the raydeeashuns!

    3. Re:Another alternative being "better?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So here's the thing. You're idea of "poor" seems vastly skewed. There are (a lot) of people in the world who would consider most of the "poor" in developed countries to be living in luxury. It's very easy to forget that you're actually the rich one when you see people who are so much richer than you are.

      I will still happily praise Bill Gates for the good he's been able to accomplish. Some people happen to disagree with some of the things he's helped fund. Big whoop! Find me someone rich and powerful who doesn't have any critics. Tip: There isn't one. Furthermore, if funding GM crops happens to ACTUALLY HELP FEED STARVING PEOPLE then he's doing the right thing. If not, he made a mistake and over time he'll realize it and correct course. Honestly, most of the anti-GM crap is worthless fear-mongering from tree-huggers gone wild. There obviously needs to be sane regulation and testing, but developing technologies that result in higher yields of crops that are more hardy and resistant to disease is an unquestionable boon for increasing food production, especially in some of the areas where that is most badly needed to curb starvation (you know, actual people dying, not idiots claiming that GM corn must be "poisoning" them even though there's basically no data actual even remotely supporting that position).

      Captcha: Feasted

  7. Bill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Keep in mind that Bill Gates has always had a Poker Face for business.

    Anything he could do to to grow businesses that reduce poverty, is in his interests. However you won't see him just throwing money into impoverished nations or even funding initiatives on American soil that won't have results.

    Ask yourself, which is more likely to have results, spending 10 million dollars on developing better educational facilities, or handing out 10$ to one million people in poverty? The better long term outcome is the better educational facilities since it may help for 50 years. Yet many people would rather take the handout and keep taking handouts as long as someone is doing the handouts. This is why the concept of "welfare" is broken in developed countries. In developed countries, the welfare system allows people to never work at all during their lives and produce as many babies as possible. So all this does is lead to a population explosion of yet more people on welfare.

    You'd be surprised at how often kids just do exactly what their parents did. You don't break that cycle unless you can education them out of that cycle.

    1. Re:Bill by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      In developed countries, the welfare system allows people to never work at all during their lives and produce as many babies as possible. So all this does is lead to a population explosion of yet more people on welfare.

      Wow, are you living in the past (particularly about the US). Welfare queens driving Cadillacs was a line Reagan pushed in the 80's. In case you pulled a Rip van Winkle, here's an update: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act

      P.S. Don't say anything good about George III.

    2. Re:Bill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NIce Straw Man Ya got there. Who the Fuck said anything about welfare? For a start BIll could try being honest for a change. Is he developing those education facilities in third world or just trying to sell third world governments more vaccines?

  8. Whups by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

    'We want to give our wealth back to society in a

    ... BURN THE WITCH!

    No, seriously. As a percentage of net earnings, the rich contribute far less as an aggregate group than the poor. There's an inverse relationship between income and charity. The more you make, the less you give, proportionally speaking. You can outline all the reasons why it would be better if this wasn't the case... I doubt you'll find much disagreement here. But making the case for it doesn't mean anyone's going to adopt it; A concept Mr. Gates and the company he used to captain both seem ill-equipped to grasp. Simply understanding the problem better doesn't result in a solution; It is one of the oldest delusions humanity has to offer... that knowledge will lead to action.

    Instead, we need to figure out why people give proportionally less, and address the issue within that cognitive framework. And the Just world phenomenon is a great place to start: The belief that you deserve whatever is happening, or has happened, to you. Fundamentally, I think you'll find the reason the rich give less is because on a subconscious level, having adopted the belief that they earned their wealth rather than simply having won a cosmic lottery, they then build on that with confirmation bias. That is, every action that comes after that in some fashion just confirms that they're more deserving than the next guy... and eventually, that makes them not very charitable. Afterall, if I did it, you can do it, right? It's such a basic failure of reasoning that entire books have been written on the subject, and yet... here we are... still not getting it.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Whups by Fwipp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Instead, we need to figure out why people give proportionally less"

      Seems to me it's probably because poor people can better empathize with what it's like to not have enough, and they likely remember how much they appreciated it the last time somebody helped them out.

    2. Re:Whups by JWW · · Score: 1

      Add in the fact that a good portion of the rich, in addition to believing they're more deserving of wealth, have also taken moral and ethical shortcuts to increase that wealth. These ethical and moral lapses are very contrary to charitable giving.

    3. Re:Whups by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      As a percentage of net earnings, the rich contribute far less as an aggregate group than the poor.

      But that hardly seems to apply to Gates (damn, second time I'm defending him, truth is stranger than fiction).

    4. Re:Whups by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Seems to me it's probably because poor people can better empathize with what it's like to not have enough, and they likely remember how much they appreciated it the last time somebody helped them out.

      That does not explain how people who were previously poor, and then became wealthy, also follow the same pattern. Not everyone who becomes wealthy changes their social class, but most do. Put another way, once you're rich, you don't hang around with poor people much. And thanks to socialization, it's not very long at all before those old behaviors and worldview fractures and dissolves. Does it happen to everyone? No. But it seems the only people resiliant to this are those that suffered a significant trauma prior and usually early on in life that became a core belief.

      It's not a coincidence that when you read about people who ran into burning buildings to save a bunch of children, or saw a car run off the road, lept from their car to go assist... everyday heroes tend to have one thing in their background: They grew up in a small town. Go look it up. And surprise, most people who join the military also come from small towns. Their personalities are no different than those in the city, but their social environment imparted certain values -- specifically, that they're not just a face in a crowd. In the city, we choose our own subculture, our own groups to be a part of. In a small town, you have to learn how to be part of a community you may not strongly identify with. Avoiding certain types of people isn't an option. So as a consequence of that, we get people who later move to the big city or whatever, and retain that sense of community... so when they see someone in trouble, they don't have a tribalistic view.

      We are social creatures; And our desire to help others is based directly on how much they are like us. They have to be part of our tribe. It's how we're wired. And social class is a big division -- when you surround yourself with rich people, you start to think like rich people do. It seems like a really obvious thing to say, but then I see people like you say things like this and I realize... you're not understanding this tribalistic element of human behavior.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    5. Re:Whups by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the previous poster is correct to talk about the "just world fallacy". Without getting into too much of an argument as to who is "right", we all create a world view that helps to prop up our own ego.

      It's common for rich people to believe (or want to believe) that we are all in control of our own lives, and the reason they have so much is because they deserve it. They think that they're either inherently superior people, or at least that they've done better things and made better choices. To believe otherwise would induce a lot of angst.

      Meanwhile, if you're poor, it's much more ego-soothing to believe that we are powerless in our own lives, and the reason you have so little is either because of luck, or because someone has screwed you over. To believe otherwise would imply that you are somehow inferior to everyone who makes more money than you.

      If all that is true, then it would help to explain why poor people would give more, proportionately. You have one set of people who believe that poor people are unfortunate, and another set which believes that poor people deserve their problems. Which would you expect to donate more to charity?

    6. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It really boils down to what you believe "helping the poor" really means. If somebody gives $10 to the Red Cross, United Way, or one of the other seemingly countless charities that offer free services to poor people, most people count that as helping the less fortunate (even if the money is completely wasted and no one really benefits from the gift).

      However, if some rich guy like Bill Gates invests $100 million of his own money to get a new company off the ground and that company provides gainful employment to hundreds of people (who in turn spend their earnings on things that cause other people to be employed); builds truely useful products that improve the lives of everyone who uses them; then they are just "greedy capitalists" who could not care less about poor people to the anti-captialist crowd.

    7. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on the person. John D Rockefeller titled 10% of his income during his adult life, unlike Gates who decided to become philanthropic after he retired and decided he better start some charities so history will remember him better. Not to mention that Gates' charities also end up funneling money back into MSFT.

    8. Re:Whups by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      And I'd say the converse of that holds as well. Consider how many people live off of $35,000/year (gross income)--not even nearly poor--and the reaction you see from so many people on /. about how "hard" it is to live off twice as much for a salary. Certainly locality has something to do with it, but that doesn't explain the rich or very rich for which no locality is so expensive that they ever have a "hard" time living off what they earn. Instead, they have a hard time seeing any real benefit to giving to others. It's easy to understand why, too. If giving just means more people asking for more, with a lot the people able to live fine without the money, it's hard to remain charitable or focus on the people who really need the money.

      But, then you start to ask if they "deserve" the money. Well, no, probably not. But, then, did you "deserve" the money, either? A poor person who suddenly is paid well can begin to really appreciate that question, but when you're wrapped into the ideas of capitalism and the theory behind it without really considering its practical effects, you have people who have a very warped concept of the word "deserve". Add to this the idea that everything has to work on incentive--as if the poor would suddenly all become well-fed multi-millionaries if they only tried harder--, and it's little wonder that charity "begins at home" a lot more than it is out helping random strangers.

      It's one of the reason why it's hard to take most rich people seriously when they give to charity. I'll give Bill Gates some credit for the point that he seems to have vision and knows enough about strategy to get things done. I don't particularly question his motives or necessarily his methods--you should see the sort of things the Salvation Army will sell*, for example. That said, a large part of Bill Gates' success with Microsoft was Steve Ballmer--a businessman who could work that part of the relationship. I presume that Gates needs someone similar in the charitable space to actually succeed in a significant way. Who that person might be, I don't know.

      *This weekend, I happened across a copy of Carmageddon at a Salvation Army, so that was interesting.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    9. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point of charity is to aid others.
      The point of investment is to enrich the investor.

      Can you see a difference yet?

    10. Re:Whups by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      As a percentage of net earnings, the rich contribute far less as an aggregate group than the poor.

      It's worth pointing out that this statistic takes into account all spending by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for over a decade. The Foundation was started in 1997. Sixteen years of fairly spectacular giving by the Foundation has failed to move that bar. I haven't seen the most recent statistics that would take into account Warren Buffet's mammoth donation of Berkshire Hathaway stocks to the Gates Foundation, but I suspect the rich still contribute a lower percentage.

      I don't think knowing why will make any difference, either. If indeed the reason can be known. Certainly the I Deserve It and lack of empathy theories sound very reasonable, but social "science" isn't science. Science requires facts, and those motivations are unknown even to the people acting on them because people are so good at lying to themselves. Peel away the self-deception and other-deception and those theories would simply become justifications and the relative net giving would remain more or less unchanged. And that doesn't even take into account the fairly self-evident fact that an unusually large percentage of rich people display sociopathic or psychopathic behavior. People with those disorders famously lack empathy. For those people, no self-deception is involved—they have no empathy and therefore have no need to justify their behavior to themselves. "Because I want to" is sufficient and the plight of the poor is entirely irrelevant to their decision-making processes.

    11. Re:Whups by geekoid · · Score: 1

      This is becasue the poor tend to be more devote* and as such easier to manipulate into tithing.

      *got have some reason for being in a crappy situation

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    12. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's irrelevant why some people give proportionally less. I'll explain with an example. Where does the value Microsoft produces come from? Does the value generated by their offshore technical support workers compare with their equivalent in salaries? What about the people who build the (half a dozen) devices they sell?

      Instead of "giving back", how about exploiting people a little less to begin with?

      Also, they did earn their wealth. And your "Just world phenomenon" comes from Calvinism. By your terms they have either earned their wealth or won a cosmic lottery. Which one is it? It can't be both.

    13. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That may be true of others, but gates definitely percentage wise gives more than the vast majority of the population, especially considering his plan is to give almost everything to charity except for a token amount for his children.

    14. Re:Whups by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

      Gates was extremely philanthropic even during his working career. It massively increased on his retirement but he has always been a very generous and mostly modest person that doesn't flaunt his wealth.

    15. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bullshit, Gates charity significantly hurts MS, it doesn't channel money into it. Gates offloads millions of shares every year in MSFT to transfer to his charity, this depresses the share price for the whole company and has been diminishing his shareholdings to the point where in a few years he won't even be a significant MS investor. Gates has also ALWAYS been very charitable, he has been a long term contributor and supporter of many charities and this didn't suddenly start when he retired.

    16. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Money becomes more scarce the more you have.

      A person with ten dollars to his name cannot buy a house, let alone a network of businesses, so that ten dollars (even though it is all he has) is not worth very much to him.

      A person with a million dollars to his name can buy several houses, or businesses, or better providence for his family, etc. So that million dollars becomes more scarce by virtue of having so many more uses. By giving away, say, half of that million dollars, the owner is giving up far, far more potential options than the poor man gives up by sacrificing all ten of his dollars.

      So, in a very real and practical sense, rich people make greater sacrifice (of potential options) with their donations than poor people.

    17. Re:Whups by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

      Instead, we need to figure out why people give proportionally less, and address the issue

      We used to call that "progressive taxation". Policy makers were smart enough to realize that the rich could not be trusted to support society out of the good of their own hearts (HA!), but apparently not smart enough to prevent the infiltration of government and dismantling of sensible tax policy.

    18. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That does not explain how people who were previously poor, and then became wealthy, also follow the same pattern.

      I can explain it: "fuck you, I got mine".

    19. Re:Whups by s.petry · · Score: 1

      While I agree with your statements, I will point out that we have had a solution for a couple thousand years. Socrates' Allegory of the Artisan explains the problem and solution very well, and assigns the "Government of the People" as responsible to ensure that we don't see the crap we have today.

      Simple question: How much money is too much money? The answer to that question from just about everyone today will be "no such thing". If there is no cap or control, you end up with people that hoard and gain control of everything while the rest of society gets buy on scraps.

      Up until the 70s this was mostly controlled by taxes. Rich people paid between 80 and 90% in taxes. It still allowed wealth accumulation without the extreme monopolization we have today. Was that the best answer? I have not heard any alternatives only denial that it's beneficial, contrary to reality we saw with "Reaganomics".

      I still can't believe that people buy into "Trickle Down Economics" after 3 decades of it being proven wrong (not that you believe it, but see how many do in responses).

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    20. Re:Whups by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      It's not a coincidence that when you read about people who ran into burning buildings to save a bunch of children, or saw a car run off the road, lept from their car to go assist... everyday heroes tend to have one thing in their background: They grew up in a small town. Go look it up. And surprise, most people who join the military also come from small towns.

      Perhaps you're confusing cause and effect? Small towns have shitty building codes and horrible drivers. People from small towns would do anything to escape, including join the military.

      Their personalities are no different than those in the city, but their social environment imparted certain values -- specifically, that they're not just a face in a crowd. In the city, we choose our own subculture, our own groups to be a part of. In a small town, you have to learn how to be part of a community you may not strongly identify with. Avoiding certain types of people isn't an option. So as a consequence of that, we get people who later move to the big city or whatever, and retain that sense of community... so when they see someone in trouble, they don't have a tribalistic view.

      Um, did you actually grow up in a small town? Because about everything you just said was wrong from my experience. I'd argue it's not the sense of community that has anything to do with it but that in small towns there's little room for stratification of classes. To move to a large city after growing up in a small town is likely to result in one being surrounded by similar class people--be it you living in a ghetto or a "good" neighborhood--and its still that which defines their behavior. Ie, they moved from one small town to another in their mind.

      Nah, the GP's observation is correct probably for the bigger truth: most poor stay poor. Those who don't often want to forget that life and will readily accept they earned their new position and hence everyone else "below" them doesn't deserve charity. Honestly, I'd imagine the rich born could empathize more through, as you almost suggest, a tragic life event--being forced to be poor by a parent for a while might do the trick.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    21. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems to me it's probably because poor people can better empathize with what it's like to not have enough, and they likely remember how much they appreciated it the last time somebody helped them out.

      And there is some magical "rich" point that gets thrown about. That's usually people earning a bit more than the median income. I am in that category, and I can tell you I have less disposable income than about 20k/year ago.

      Tax increases. There are all sorts of new "levies" (a nice euphamism for "tax") to pay.

      Useless bitch^W^WChild support increases as a proportion of income (it's calculated pre-tax, but tax just increased non-linearly so I have disproportinately more of my after-tax income stolen) at about that point.

      Government handouts stop.

      Low income discounts evaporate.

      I'd love to give more to charitable endeavours, but I just don't have it to give anymore because I'm basically paying the biggest 'charitable' handout of them all.. more tax!

    22. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are poor, it isn't merely "ego-soothing" to believe that you are powerless. You ARE powerless, whether you admit it or not. That's what it means to be poor.

      Here's another fun fact: I know that Bill Gates isn't generous. How do I know this? Because he's still obscenely rich. Duh. How the hell could that be unless he's still a greedy, money-grubbing bastard? This is also why poor people are more generous. Some of them were rich and became poor through wanting to make this world a place worth living in, and thus became poor. That's what it truly means to be generous.

    23. Re:Whups by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      > we need to figure out why people give proportionally less

      I think Bill is trying to answer why he didn't give when he was building wealth. If you recall Bill was a very small giver at that time, his answer was that he was going to give to charity, but he said it was better that he invest the money, because he could do better building a larger fortune to do more good, than the small quantity he could do then. At the time most rolled their eyes at this excuse, but then he followed through.
          My guess is Bill had reasons such as:
              1) Lack of well managed worthy causes that make a difference. Everyone begs for money from him with a good story, but finding which one takes more effort than he wants to take from day to day work.
            2) Lack of time to manage giving. Again, he was focused on building something early, without #1 he had to basically retire to do this one right.

      So I think Bill is looking at why he didn't give, and trying to address that first. Personally these reasons hold me back. While not that rich, so why would I give to the Susan Kolmans of the world, so that she can live better than me but do good with the leftovers. I would rather give to someone like Gates, but I am more selfish, wanting to see results in person (IE locally) if I am sacrificing on my quality of living for them.

    24. Re:Whups by ChrisMaple · · Score: 0

      Assuming your claim that "As a percentage of net earnings, the rich contribute far less as an aggregate group than the poor. There's an inverse relationship between income and charity." is true, it explains a lot. Such as why the poor remain poor; they're throwing away their money on the undeserving, the other poor; thereby maintaining their own poverty and removing from the object of their charity the incentive to improve.

      The people most effective at production make more when they have more to work with. If they give it away, they have less to work with and thus produce less, civilization loses. The math is pretty simple, but if you try to mix it with pop psychology and an arbitrary moral system, you'll achieve just what you did: nonsense.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    25. Re:Whups by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The causality runs in both directions, and the direction opposite yours is the more obvious and powerful truth.

      A person who believes his actions affect his future is motivated to act to improve his future, which is the best way to improve his future. The person who believes his actions are futile sees no incentive in acting to improve his future, and won't act, and heads toward poverty.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    26. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You hit this right on the head. I enjoyed reading that. I'm glad there's more people out there that truly understand this
      concept. My opinion on the subconscious dominoe effect of success you mention is simply one of greed and selfishness. Besides,
      there's not a man alive today that honestly and rightfuly, has become "rich". Including Gates himself which got to where he is
      by stealing and decieving his way to the top. Some get there by inheretence, some by cheating and dishonesty. No one becomes
      wealthy anymore by simply working hard, all thanks to these large monopolies like Microsoft which put an end to
      entreprenuership. Just my opinion....

    27. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Instead, we need to figure out why people give proportionally less"

      Seems to me it's probably because poor people can better empathize with what it's like to not have enough, and they likely remember how much they appreciated it the last time somebody helped them out.

      In John Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" Ma Joad, after
      getting credit in a store from a clerk rather than the store, says
      "`I'm learnin' one thing good,' she said. `Learnin' it all a time,
      ever' day. If you're in trouble or hurt or need-- go to poor
      people. They're the only ones that'll help-- the only ones.'"

    28. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rich people generally do not have liquid wealth that is easy to give, for one thing. Poor people do. Rich people can't cash in all their stock, sell their properties, etc very easily. The market for ivory-handled back scratchers is limited. So as a percent of their wealth, liquid wealth that they can give is much smaller than poor people. Meanwhile, poor people have only liquid wealth because they don't have any other assets.

    29. Re:Whups by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      Small towns have shitty building codes and horrible drivers.

      Is there any evidence of this whatsoever?

      It might even be true; I certainly haven't surveyed a representative sample of small towns. In the one I grew up in, and the ones around it, and the others I've been to enough to about these things, these things are not true. And my instinct is to say that city drivers are much shittier than small town drivers, particularly during inclement weather (partly because city-dwellers they have the option of not driving during inclement weather). Building codes, I really don't know. I would have guess that both cities and small towns have wide variance, but the average of cities and average of small towns is about the same.

      In the interest of fairness, I'm also not sure of the "most heroes are from small towns" claim. I wonder if it's just unreported when [city A dweller] does cool thing in [city A], since you assume by default that he lives there so it doesn't need to be mentioned.

    30. Re:Whups by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Yours is not a "more obvious and powerful truth". In fact, it already assumes the first of my viewpoints, that people who do better things are going to be more successful. If you are powerless to effect your own future, then your motive to act is irrelevant.

      I'm not saying that the first viewpoint is wrong, but I'm not saying it's right either. I would like to point out that:

      (a) it is a viewpoint that you're being sold, force fed all the time, by various people
      (b) It is a viewpoint that will be stronger among the wealthy and powerful
      (c) It's a viewpoint that benefits the wealthy and powerful to convince us all of, because it tells us that they're wealthy and powerful because they deserve it
      (d) The "power of positive thinking" is likely to be a successful meme, since people are more likely to spread that idea than the alternative. That is, if you think you can change things with thinking, then you're likely to keep thinking it and spread the thought to other people. If you don't believe that, then there's no motivation to spread your ideas to others.
      (e) The success of a meme is not necessarily an indicator of its truth

      If you want to know what I think, it's that the "truth" is significantly more complicated than either of these viewpoints would indicate. The degree of control we have over our own futures is very unclear, and probably extremely variable. Some of us probably have much more control than others, but it depends on what you consider to be "control".

    31. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems like too complicated an answer.

      If it's really the proportion we are talking about, then it comes down to simple ratios.

      If a rich person, and a poor (but not destitute) person both encounter someone in need, and both make the decision to buy that person a meal, or give them bus fare, or what have you. The need was the same, the solution the same, but the ratio obviously differs.

    32. Re:Whups by cavebison · · Score: 1

      An interesting irony is that most people who love Capitalism do what benefits themselves, while looking at society's problems as "somebody else's problem". But who is this somebody else? It's like how most people think they are above average intelligence.

    33. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Might not want to forget a minor point here: the wealthy, while giving a smaller portion of their earnings, are able to give it in larger blocks. Seven billion people living marginally above subsistence levels may give more, in total, but are likely to spread it out over a larger number of charities, meaning that even if there are charitable kickstarters that work, you will likely miss out on a number of larger projects, such as the Allen Brain Institute. Also, given that poverty tends to result in managing finances more poorly even after poverty itself ends, it seems likely that the bulk of this charity would be spent less than ideally.

      In short, well targetted donations of a substantial magnitude from individuals of means may (or may not; I'm not even gonna hazard a guess, lacking the data for one) be more valuable to humanity in the long run than a larger number of random donations of a globally insignificant magnitude, even with perfect infrastructure for such donations to be made.

      You could collect some data on this, though: try setting up a kickstarter to collect a billion dollars to recoup some of the R&D costs of the first company to make significant infrastructure for the space age, with the goal of motivating such efforts. It's about three orders of magnitude short of my back of envelope calculation as to the cost of a reusable platform for manned Mars missions in the multikiloton vessel range, so it wouldn't make much of a dent in a colonization project, but may serve as an incentive for lead-in projects. If you meet the funding goal before someone has done a manned mission to Mars, I'll be inclined to think we may stand to gain as a species by distributing wealth better, and vice versa if you don't.

      Captcha: trapped [on Earth]

    34. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Justness is a human concept, of which the universe knows nothing, but the derived just world hypothesis appears beneficial for the rearing outcome in children.

      We should not formulate any theory in terms of justness or its absence.

      The reason a Norwegian born with a permanent disability will have more than twice as much material wealth on welfare as a typical entire household in the USA (by typical, I mean the peak of the bell curve) is because of choices that have been made over generations, including how to use our natural resources correctly. Luck plays a factor in where you are born, and with what genes and what parents, obviously, and we can do things to make things more equitable in order that each be able to realize more of their own potential on their own merits, rather than the merits of their background, but regardless, luck plays little role in how you play the hand you were dealt; and unless you live close to the noise floor or some other rectifying element (i.e. one making negatives more persistent than the positives), luck averages out in the outcome. The initial luck of the draw, however, is obviously and largely unavoidably fixed.

      I think it's important to avoid an inverse just world fallacy, wherein we ascribe to luck what is more correctly ascribed to choices, which is what believing yourself to have been screwed over at random amounts to, for instance (we're all screwed over, regularly, and it evens out when we live above a certain minimum standard). In essence, any random component to our lives, other than where we started, is largely going to represent a random walk that evens out to where we push to go with the power available to us. This inverse fallacy seems prominent in a lot of people who are aware of the main (and more common) fallacy.

      As an aside, money is power and vice versa, with money being comparable to the nebulous term energy: action potential. Setting aside leverage (e.g. contacts) and the overhead of interconversion. Labor converts power into money, but not necessarily very efficiently, and the action may be harnessed for more than you'll ever get out of it yourself in the context of a company for which you work, for instance. By definition, rich people have more power, and can influence their lives more than poor people. For them to believe anything other than that their choice of how to wield their power plays a major role in their lives would be ludicrous. Similarly, poor people have less power, and thus less influence over their own lives. For them to believe themselves other than (comparatively) powerless would also be ludicrous, and this has nothing to do with soothing their egos and everything to do with simple fact (attributing it to malice in others, though, is soothing the ego, and likely not correct in the first place).

      Luck doesn't come into it, save for luck of the draw. Power does. Power, usually acquired over generations, in the form of genes, money, contacts, assets, status and knowledge. This is probably a good thing, outside a growth economy (growth can emulate an open system by abusing the time direction; in a closed system, accumulated power is potential for change). Luck is mostly buried in the noise floor, for most of us, or a misattribution of choices to this nebulous luck thing. We can invoke the term when we get struck by lightning from a clear sky, but that is rare, hardly a factor to base sociology on. Sociology should probably look more to how we can increase the power of the poor over generations, and conspire with ethics to determine if it is justifiable to disempower the powerful to accomplish this. I tend to think there are serious problems with a society cannibalizing its most powerful members, but that may just be me. For a society to invest in its future, on the other hand, seems quite sensible, and makes economic sense, even for the wealthy.

      Incidentally, the just world hypothesis seems to play out differently in different cultures.

    35. Re:Whups by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gates was extremely philanthropic even during his working career

      But as far as I can recall he didn't become philanthropic until Melinda came into his life. She started him on the philanthropic path.

  9. Nothing is ever that simple by Anubis350 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Nothing is ever that simple and any attempt to boil something so vast down to a single word, no matter how far reaching, is naive. Religions exists because of various human needs, and people believe because of various needs. It can enrich lives or impoverish them. It can motivate, or demotivate. It can create and destroy. Help and Harm. Like anything manmade it can be used for peace, and for war.

    Terrible acts done in the name of religion are symptoms of deeper, more intertwined problems in how we relate to one another, terrible teachings symptomatic of human needs for order, control, and normalcy. Absence of religion would not simply make the world a better place on it's own, something else would take the place, both good and bad, that religion serves . "If god did not exist it would be necessary to invent him"

    --
    "goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
    1. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For sure, it's not that simple. The very fact is that the nature of the religions embodies their own evilness. Religions are all based on dogmas and by definitions dogmas are inalterable, non debatable. Religions were, until proven to the contrary, created by humans and humans are fallible. Consequently, mistakes and errors in religion are there to stay. Creationism ? Universe 6000 years old ? We are the chosen one and all others are wrong ? ... ? ... ?

          These mistakes and error are the first steps to hate and bloodsheds.

    2. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by geekoid · · Score: 0

      The needs belief fulfilled don't exist anymore. We don';t need to grasp blindly and any reason for something, we have science.

      " Absence of religion would not simply make the world a better place on it's own, something else would take the place, both good and bad, that religion serves .
      No, that's not true at all.

      Tenants of religion underlines and enhances most of societies ill on the global level.

      " "If god did not exist it would be necessary to invent him"
      We did invent him, but we don't live in caves fearfull of lightning. We don't need to have one leader in order to survive.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by painandgreed · · Score: 2

      The needs belief fulfilled don't exist anymore. We don';t need to grasp blindly and any reason for something, we have science.

      Science has particularly unsatisfactory answers to "Why am I here?", "Where am I going?", "Why do bad things happen to me and not others?", "Did I do ok with my life?", etc. It pretty much lacks any sort of philosophy as to how one should live their life. Add in that many people probably don't want to spend that much time thinking on such and the societal need for exactly that to continue functioning smoothly, and you have why atheism just doesn't appeal to human nature. Mankind has had philosophy for much longer than science, and it is more important to mankind than science.

    4. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Science has particularly unsatisfactory answers

      I sort of think this might be the issue. People don't seem to ever want to accept an answer that makes them uncomfortable so they turn to something that tells them a happy lie to remove the discomfort, and then convince themselves that the lie must be true.

    5. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      People don't seem to ever want to accept an answer that makes them uncomfortable

      True. For some people a belief that there is no God is uncomfortable, and for others a belief that there is a God is uncomfortable.

    6. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      The very fact is that the nature of the religions embodies their own evilness. Religions are all based on dogmas and by definitions dogmas are inalterable, non debatable. Religions were, until proven to the contrary, created by humans and humans are fallible. Consequently, mistakes and errors in religion are there to stay.

      Those statements are pretty dogmatic.

    7. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Religion is needed cause humans are ignorant in some cases. Heck, I am in some cases....

      But, how we practice religion... that's another discussion and a source of many ills of the world.

    8. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Science has particularly unsatisfactory answers to "Why am I here?", "Where am I going?", "Why do bad things happen to me and not others?", "Did I do ok with my life?", etc.

      So it's just like religion then.

      It pretty much lacks any sort of philosophy as to how one should live their life.

      That's a load of cockery. Science tells us how we should live our life if we want to accomplish particular goals. For example, if we want to continue to have a climate which supports our existence, we have to stop shitting all over our environment.

      Add in that many people probably don't want to spend that much time thinking on such and the societal need for exactly that to continue functioning smoothly, and you have why atheism just doesn't appeal to human nature.

      I'm a human. Atheism appeals to my nature. Atheism appeals to human nature. Some people have been scared into thinking that they need religion, though.

      Mankind has had philosophy for much longer than science, and it is more important to mankind than science.

      Just because we weren't calling it science doesn't mean we didn't have science. People came up with hypotheses and tested them before we knew what a hypothesis was.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Dogmatic is precisely what they're not. Do you not understand what "until proven to the contrary" means?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    10. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Why am I here?

      There's a very mechanistic answer to that. If you're looking for something "deeper" than that, then the lack is in you and not science. It is not shallow or trivial to say "Life is what you make it."

      Where am I going?

      Once again, that's up to you.

      Why do bad things happen to me and not others?

      Usually, that's a question to be addressed to an expert in mental defects. Beyond that, the answers are again mechanistic. You got hit by that car because you were walking in a busy highway, stinking drunk.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    11. Re:Nothing is ever that simple by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Science has particularly unsatisfactory answers to "Why am I here?", "Where am I going?", "Why do bad things happen to me and not others?", "Did I do ok with my life?", etc.

      "If you ask the wrong questions you get answers like '42' or 'God'."

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
  10. Absolutely false. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Bzzt. Thanks for playing.
    You can highlight lots of examples of power-hungry idiots using certain religious ideology to cause harm, but it's no more dangerous than power-hungry idiots finding some other, perhaps less convenient, excuse to do the same thing. Many have done that as well.
    Even if you had a point, which you don't, "correlation does not equal causation" (we can't have a Slashdot post that doesn't mention that fact, or Nazis, or "trusting trust")

    1. Re:Absolutely false. by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      it's no more dangerous than power-hungry idiots finding some other, perhaps less convenient, excuse to do the same thing.

      Except that religion explicitly insists on unconditional, unquestioning, evidence-free belief.

      That is dangerous in itself.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    2. Re:Absolutely false. by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      it's no more dangerous than power-hungry idiots finding some other, perhaps less convenient, excuse to do the same thing.

      Except that religion explicitly insists on unconditional, unquestioning, evidence-free belief.

      That is dangerous in itself.

      Maybe some particular religion insists on those things, but there's nothing about religion in general that demands unconditional, unquestioning, evidence-free belief. The Dali Lama, one of the most influential religious leaders in the world, has explicitly stated that one should not be so devout as to have unconditional, unquestioning, evidence-free belief. In fact, he's stated that throughout his life he's often doubted his faith and challenged himself to question its basic tenants.

      Evidence-free belief also isn't as egregious as you make it sound. Not everything is a science experiment. Moral questions aren't the type that can be answered with empiricism.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
  11. I like his choice in where to focus by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    In the old days when this was a small town calling itself a city, I'd frequently be at a play with Bill or some other event.

    I like his focus on where we need to fix it, but the cold hard fact is he lives in an area where the ultra-rich are taxed much less than the poor, and he goes to great lengths not to pay taxes on many levels.

    Capitalism is no problem - but Adam Smith, the Father of Capitalism, railed against Mercantalism that Bill worships at the head of.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by operagost · · Score: 1, Interesting

      We'll ignore your claim that the ultra-rich pay fewer taxes than the poor.* But imagine that every rich person filled the gap with charitable contributions. Why do you care that they're paying fewer taxes, when they're getting the wealth to the people who need it more directly?

      * Indeed, in the USA, the poor not only avoid all federal and state income tax but they receive credits; this usually helps negate what little other taxes they pay.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    2. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 0

      We'll ignore your claim that the ultra-rich pay fewer taxes than the poor.* But imagine that every rich person filled the gap with charitable contributions. Why do you care that they're paying fewer taxes, when they're getting the wealth to the people who need it more directly?

      * Indeed, in the USA, the poor not only avoid all federal and state income tax but they receive credits; this usually helps negate what little other taxes they pay.

      Um, our state (where he lives) has no income tax. His federal return is usually around 8 percent, like mine.

      I know you worship the rich, but you sure don't act like them.

      Most of our taxes are sales taxes (which he doesn't pay much of, and his nonprofits either) and property taxes (ditto).

      Please take your anti-tax screed worship of the ultra-rich somewhere else.

      There's a reason why you hire good lawyers and accountants first, and set up trusts.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by icebike · · Score: 1

      Why do you care that they're paying fewer taxes, when they're getting the wealth to the people who need it more directly?

      Exactly right.
      Giving money to government is the LEAST efficient way to improve the lives of the poor.
      Look at the graphic on this page: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258 as to where your federal tax dollars go.
      Compare that to where the Gates Foundation spends their money.

      It quickly becomes apparent that the Gates foundation can get more money and programs into the hands of the poorest people
      in the world by completely bypassing government at all levels. Apparently WillAffleckUW thinks that Gates should strip 20% off of the
      top of the billions he spends and use it to beef up the US Military, and another 60% to fund US based welfare programs, and maybe allocate
      1% to his programs in Africa, South America, and elsewhere around the world. That's how government does it. All Hail Glorious Government.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    4. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The middle class gets screwed. The middle class picks up as much of the tax bill for the top 10% as they do for the bottom 50%.

    5. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by geekoid · · Score: 1

      * Indeed, in the USA, the poor not only avoid all federal and state income tax but they receive credits;

      false. The poor pay a hire real amount then rich people do.

      Not to mention it cost more to be poor.
      See: Vimes boot theory of economics.
      Also
      http://www.salon.com/2013/09/06/the_secret_tax_on_the_poor/

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by operagost · · Score: 1

      Your personal attacks don't constitute a rebuttal. You know nothing about me.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    7. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by operagost · · Score: 1

      That article has no actual content. It mentions unnamed "public services" that "poor" (really, everyone) people have to pay for, when they (it's implied) in the past were a shared cost. Maybe the government should stop forcing people to accept these services?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    8. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude he served u

    9. Re:I like his choice in where to focus by petman · · Score: 1

      You mean less taxes, not fewer. You're talking about the proportional amount, which is uncountable, so less should be used. Curious, because the post you're replying to actually used the correct word, less, but for some reason you felt it fit to paraphrase his words and incorrectly used fewer instead.

  12. He forgot hair loss and erection problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I saw a documentary once and it said that in the future we'll have our greatest minds working on those.

  13. Bill, its not the disparity in income that matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to the poor, its the standard of living their income provides that matters. If the entire World were millionaires it doesn't matter that some people like you are 10,000 times richer. Technology trickles down to the poor. There are cell phones in Africa and they're not there because of charity, they're there because mass production have made them economically viable.

  14. Things have changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most of the hate for Microsoft was due to their monopoly status; not so much anymore. That monopoly let them sit on their laurels and collect money without needing to produce the best product quality. Today, MS the _underdog_ in a lot of hugely important markets. Furthermore, Gates is only a Chairman at MS anymore and has little or nothing to do with day to day operations. He's spent a an enormous amount of time, effort, and money sincerely trying (and in many cases succeeding) to make things a little better for humans everywhere. People need to let go of the hate, it's no longer useful in this context.

    1. Re:Things have changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't hate Microsoft because of their monopoly status. I merely disliked the unethical behaviors they used when they abused others by means of their monopoly. I think that was true for most Microsoft haters. If Microsoft had advanced the state of the art, and got a monopoly that way, I'd love them. But that wasn't what they did, nor is it what they are doing now. They are shooting themselves in the foot, much like IBM used to. As people have used other operating systems and software on other platforms, people have abandoned their PC's in great numbers. This is no accident, this is not because people hate Microsoft, but because people are more attracted to better experiences.

    2. Re:Things have changed by davydagger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      that said, they still sit on their lareuls and collect money via patent trolling.

      Bill Gates can talk about being a do-gooder when he renounces patent trolling, or more aptly sells his stock in monsanto, and denounces that too.

    3. Re:Things have changed by emuls · · Score: 0

      Oh shutup.

    4. Re:Things have changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy shit, are you kidding me? What, praytell, have you done for the world that is on par with the achievements of Bill Gates?

      Answer: Nothing. He's done more for humanity than you could ever fathom doing.

    5. Re:Things have changed by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      You're seriously going to argue that Microsoft is an underdog? Because I find it difficult to swallow that a corporation sitting on $80 billion that still completely dominates laptop and desktop operating systems, plus office suites, and console gaming to be an "underdog" in anything. If they are getting their asses handed to them in the phone and tablet market it's because they ignored it for too long. That's not being an underdog, that's being fucking stupid.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    6. Re:Things have changed by davydagger · · Score: 1

      He's also done far more to HURT humanity than I could ever dream of doing.

      What have you done btw, besides talking shit on as AC.

  15. Most of the problems listed have a REAL cause by operagost · · Score: 1

    Human beings.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    1. Re:Most of the problems listed have a REAL cause by pushing-robot · · Score: 1

      To be fair, you should have seen the mess after the alpacas had their turn.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    2. Re:Most of the problems listed have a REAL cause by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      I for one welcome our Alpaca Space Alien overlords and welcome their return to our out of control human reservation ...

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  16. A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by gilgongo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is worth a read:

    http://newint.org/features/2012/04/01/bill-gates-charitable-giving-ethics/

    TL;DR

    Gates's and others' philanthropy prolongs poverty by sowing as it does the seed of more inequality (in Gates's case, through the formation of health policies in the third world that make it easier for Western drug companies to open up markets for treatments there). They give away the fruit, but never the trees.

    As Oscar Wilde observed of the philanthropists of his era: ‘They seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see in poverty, but their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it.’ Then and now, as Wilde said, ‘the proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible.’

    This is really the question that needs to be addressed: why is poverty still possible - and why can it even get worse - after 200 years of Gates's capitalism? Surely by now if capitalism was the answer, we'd not be where we are today.

    --
    "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    1. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by JWW · · Score: 1

      But yet there is still truth in the expression:

      "Capitalism is the worst economic system devised by man but its better than anything else that has been tried."

      If everyone in the world were still subsistence farming, then we would have equality for all, but it would still be worse than what Capitalism has generated.

    2. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's always been capitalism's strength. It adds gap to rich vs poor, but even the poor are richer. The USA has history's richest "poor".

    3. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The reason Capitalism is breaking is that a core underpinning is being broken by technology. For the longest time the reason that labor had value is that the skills necessary were held behind a paywall - lack of ready communication, then guilds just after the printing press, then unions in the industrial era, now ... labor has nothing. Education via communication is becoming cheaper and work is being done by automation or easily moved somewhere with no rules / cheaper labor. We are nearing singularity and as we get closer all labor drops in value. At some point labor is worth very little and capital is all that matters, unfortunately the vast majority of people only have their labor to offer. When capital becomes fully "king" we are all serfs again.

      Capitalism tries to balance relative value of inputs (capital, labor, raw material, land) but if the sole input most people can offer, labor, isn't worth enough to keep them alive then the system becomes unstable and untenable. Why? your markets will disappear if the serfs can't buy anything. It staggers the mind how our current crop of economists can't see this coming.

      You have poverty when your labor isn't worth anything and your ecology and/or economic structure and/or population's expectations cannot support a hunter-gatherer or subsistence farming lifestyle.

    4. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by paiute · · Score: 1

      This is really the question that needs to be addressed: why is poverty still possible - and why can it even get worse - after 200 years of Gates's capitalism? Surely by now if capitalism was the answer, we'd not be where we are today.

      When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist.
      --Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    5. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Warren Buffet once said of his approach to finance: ‘I don’t look to jump over seven-foot bars. I look around for one-foot bars I can step over.’ Gates asserts his philosophy of philanthropy to be the opposite: ‘We should be looking around for the seven-foot bars; that’s why we exist."

      Looks like someone's been spending time in those bars indeed. :)

    6. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      False dichotomy: Capitalism or subsistence farming. Really?

    7. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But yet there is still truth in the expression:

      "Capitalism is the worst economic system devised by man but its better than anything else that has been tried."

      Wrong, better things have been tried.

    8. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by TheSync · · Score: 1, Interesting

      why is poverty still possible

      The problem is that there still remains too much socialism and regulation of free market activities in much of the developing world. A graph of economic freedom versus per capita GDP tells the story. Countries with lower economic freedom tend to have lower GDP per capita, correlation=0.67.

      The good news is that the adoption of less socialism and more capitalism (especially in India and China) has lead to less global income inequality:

      "The period between 1988 and 2008 witnessed the first decline in global income inequality since the Industrial Revolution"

      I'll admit that the best thing Gates could do is to research why it is so hard to eliminate entrenched power structures that continue to keep low levels of economic freedom present in many developing countries, and what could be done to change things there.

    9. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "richest" poor? What an oxymoron. And in what sense does USA the "richest" poor? Americans are a paycheck away to lose their homes. And that's not since 2008....

    10. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      Well said.

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    11. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Because government is in the way. Let the market regulate itself and poverty will disappear.

    12. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't so much capitalism, it's perversion of capitalism. The corporate oligarchy has found free-market capitalism to be inconvenient, and used the tools of political influence and legal bullying to arrange monopolies in a lot of places where there should be free markets. While this is widely labeled as 'capitalism' by people with various agendas and/or levels of ignorance, it isn't; it is more akin to feudalism.

    13. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by spiffmastercow · · Score: 2

      But yet there is still truth in the expression:

      "Capitalism is the worst economic system devised by man but its better than anything else that has been tried."

      That statement is obsolete. Look here for details.

    14. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is poverty still possible? Because the rich and educated are allowed to migrate but not the poor and uneducated. Allow free migration and you'll see conditions in the poor parts of the world raise, while conditions in the rich world decrease, until an average is reached. Until this average isn't reached you can't have a fair wage to negotiate from, and capitalists will be free to move their money wherever it'll get them a better deal.

      I'm a capitalist, BTW, and if I can pay a worker in Vietnam less than a worker in the US for an equivalent amount of work, I'll pay the Vietnamese. Give me the same wage for all my options and I'll just put my money wherever it's more convenient.

    15. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is better:

      A largish group of free people with plenty of leisure time, but no food, shelter, clothing, nor any means of obtaining such...

      or...

      A largish group of people who are compelled to perform labor for most of their lives, but have access to food, shelter, clothing, medicine, sufficient providence for their families, and a few luxury items now and then.

      If making foreign business opportunities profitable in poor regions produces the second state, it is by far preferable to the former. While an idealized third state might be even better...the reality is that these people cannot lift themselves to that third state by themselves, and foreign investment will only produce the second state.

      So, you can do nothing, or you can do something even if it is not everything. Your choice.
       

    16. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      GDP per capita is a boring, irrelevant statistic when we're talking about quality of life for the masses.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    17. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gates's philanthropy prolongs poverty by KEEPING POOR PEOPLE ALIVE.

      The most efficient way to eliminate poverty is to let all the poor people die. Do you want to make that call? Could you still sleep at night?

    18. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by TheSync · · Score: 1

      GDP per capita is a boring, irrelevant statistic when we're talking about quality of life for the masses.

      So quality of life in Chad ($885 GDP per capita, economic freedom index 45.2) is better than Sweden ($55,244, economic freedom index 72.9)?

      How about the relationship between economic freedom and life expectancy then?

    19. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Clearly not, but there are plenty of countries with a lower GDP than the US who enjoy a better quality of life.

    20. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not at all clear the statement is obsolete: the Nordic countries are certainly depending upon the benefits of capitalism to provide the foundation for their socialism. After all, they can't produce everything they need, and the low costs of imports such as food and raw materials needed to run their economies depend upon capitalism existing in other countries.

      Further, the funding for research and development needed to develop advanced technologies for health care (MRI, Ultrasound, etc) and the funding for drug development, primarily comes from capitalist countries, which means the lives of their citizens literally depend upon capitalism!

      Without such a capitalist foundation to provide low prices on fundamental goods, it's far from clear that their system would work, and it's also far from clear that the system could be generalized to other nations without turning into something much like a Ponzi scheme, with the last capitalist nations holding the bag for the "entitlements" of the rest of the world.

      Probably the best way to view these systems is to view these countries as mooching off everybody else in order to let themselves think they're occupying the moral high ground. Not particularly an improvement of capitalism, but great propaganda.

    21. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me give you the magic decoder ring for translating this article:

      "Depending on what side of bed Gates gets out of in the morning, it can shift the terrain of global health." -- He won't fund my research, because it sucks.

      "We depend on them learning, and it's not as if there are many points of influence for this." -- He won't fund my pet schemes, thus taking away from my corrupt buddies the opportunity to skim.

      "As these institutions are clearly also trying to influence policymaking, there are huge conflicts of interests..." -- They don't want to pay bribes to my corrupt buddies or let people skim.
      (What a bunch of American arrogance. They simply don't understand the way things are done in our part of the world. They actually believe they have some sort of right to spend their money however they want!)

      "Some of the research Gates funds is ill-advised" -- We get paid to advise people on research, and he won't use our services because we suck (or we get too cozy with known corrupt people).

      "Issues which are not necessarily top priority for people in the recipient country." -- The establishment in the recipient country wants bribes to let charities operate there.

      "The way 'venture philanthropy' focuses on measurable impact may obscure the less tangible, but equally important, goals of democracy and empowerment" -- We need to empower the existing entrenched interests in various corrupt governments so they can make money "off the books" (less tangible) while claiming to be acting in the interests of "democracy" (cover, while simultaneously blaming Americans (who everybody knows are corrupt and incompetent) for any failures of the program)

      "Appealing to the mega-rich to be more charitable is not a solution to global health problems. This kind of philanthropy is either a distraction or potentially harmful" -- (A nice sound bite, since it has zero information content, but then that also applies to the entire article, so it shouldn't come as a surprise. Think: A crayon is potentially harmful, and can certainly be a distraction, therefore we should ban all crayons).
      Translation: socialism == good, capitalism == bad.

      Vague innuendo and allegations are always a popular tool amongst propagandists. It might not hurt you to take a course in critical reading skills ...

    22. Re:A reasonable critique of Gates's philanthropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously? coralation=0.67? You're using that as evidence?

  17. How about we start with Microsoft? by nine-times · · Score: 1

    I don't have a magic formula for prioritizing the world's problems. You could make a good case for poverty, disease, hunger, war, poor education, bad governance, political instability, weak trade, or mistreatment of women.

    All of those things are good causes, but since Gates is struggling to find a place to begin, I'd like to suggest that he starts by fixing the blight-on-humanity that he created. Microsoft screws many of us over on a regular basis. It hurts the economy. It hurts technological progress. How about pushing his company to be more cooperative? How about pushing for open standards? How about pushing back against terrible patent and copyright abuses, insane EULAs, and absurd licensing fees? How about open sourcing old versions of their software so that software from a few decades ago can be preserved for historical/artistic purposes, if for no other reason?

    It's like a man coming into your house, pissing all over your rug, and then saying he's struggling to figure out how he can improve your property value. Maybe start by not pissing on my rug anymore?

    1. Re:How about we start with Microsoft? by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Microsoft screws many of us over on a regular basis.

      Much as I hate having to use Microsoft products, I don't feel too sorry for myself compared to people living with endemic malaria.

    2. Re:How about we start with Microsoft? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying it's the worst problem. Going back to my metaphor:

      It's like a man coming into your house, pissing all over your rug, and then saying he's struggling to figure out how he can improve your property value. Maybe start by not pissing on my rug anymore?

      Now maybe this man is a carpenter, and he can fix your roof and refinishing your basement and do all kinds of things to fix up your house. And ultimately, pissing on your rug is probably not the biggest issue in your house. It can be cleaned up. The rug can be tossed and replaced. It's not the biggest deal. But still, if you're trying to fix up the house, stopping your habit of pissing on the rug is probably a good place to start.

    3. Re:How about we start with Microsoft? by davydagger · · Score: 1

      or why doesn't bill gates get his friends in glaxoklinesmith let one of the countrys with a malaria endemic to have a free license to manufacture the malaria drug themselves?

      The reason why they need the drug from westerners in the first place is because restrictions on intellectual property prevent them from making it themselves.

      Or if Bill Gates wanted to help the worlds population, instead of having UNICEF pay for monanto crops, yearly, per license, why doesn't he tell them to stop pursuing Intellectual Property infringements and let people feed themselves.
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/18/monsanto-brazil-soybean-farmers_n_1606267.html

      The real danger of intellectual property isn't music or software being yanked from westerners, its the same strong arm tactics being applied to food in medicine, in the developing world, and in poor areas of the so called developed world.

      So what does that have to do with Gate's philanthropy?
      Well, they own a nice sizable stock intrest in monsanto.

      http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2010/sep/29/gates-foundation-gm-monsanto

      So, if Bill Gates wants to stop capitalism, he can start by stop being a capitalist. He gives with one hand and takes with another.

      What he's taking is peoples ability to produce what they need independantly, and giving them dependance.

      Again, just like he gave out free copies of windows in the 1900s, just to make people pay for upgrades, when the third world depends on him for food and medicine, is he going to start charging money?

  18. Religion is a nice fairytale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to explain off world intelligence - at the same time insulting our own

  19. All take, no give by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are millions of poor kids in America, Gates.
    Don't you care about them?

  20. Re:Ouch by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

    Yeah Right -provided you are on the right end the rich interest's end.

    Look at it in context. He starts by paying homage to capitalism so people won't call him a blasphemer for saying "capitalism alone can't address the needs of the very poor" (damn, am I really defending Bill Gates?).

  21. Memories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember when every /. article related to Microsoft had that cyborg pic of Willy next to it? So glad he didnt turn out like the Waltons! :)

    That and I dont think Ive heard the plight of our people and the path towards resolution ever put so succinctly.

    Altruistic capitalism. Bravo Willy, bravo!

  22. self-interest serve the wider interest. by wjcofkc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am a devout fan of capitalism. It is the best system ever devised for making self-interest serve the wider interest.

    Someone forgot to tell Bain Capital.

    I personally know someone who worked for a mid-sized IT firm out of Texas. They were small but growing and successful. Then Bain Capital stepped in, waived some money around and purchased the company. The day after the deal was finalized, everyone was fired and the company was liquidized - sold of bit by bit. The poor lady is now in the Mid-West working in a call center.

    Capitalism for the wider interests my ass. When the wider interests are served, it's incidental. Capitalists only care about the 99% when it means making more money off of them, and they wouldn't serve the wider interests if they didn't have to. Granted, they often do, but it's not because they are on the moral high ground. Perhaps Bill Gates really truly is trying to say that the evils of capitalism truly equal good for the people, but I don't think that makes it a good system - it's open to mutation and a future where we see the raw, unabashed, exploitation of the people. Like I said, it's incidental. We are carefully watching the US government become dystopian, while corporations are more quietly doing the same. Bill gates might be a true philanthropist, but he is nearly alone in his level of giving and is kidding himself if he believes all capitalists have the greater good or wider interests at heart.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    1. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by TheSync · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I personally know someone who worked for a mid-sized IT firm out of Texas. They were small but growing and successful. Then Bain Capital stepped in, waived some money around and purchased the company. The day after the deal was finalized, everyone was fired and the company was liquidized - sold of bit by bit. The poor lady is now in the Mid-West working in a call center.

      Seen vs. unseen...

      First, if Bain Capital was called in, it is likely the company was in trouble, so she would have been laid off anyway.

      Secondly, the owners of the company felt it was worth it to sell out to Bain, so they benefitted versus possibly having their investment worth nothing.

      Thirdly, the company had assets, and these assets have been redeployed to more profitable use, likely employing new people who you don't know.

    2. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bill Gates, is that you?

      Seriously though, that's an awful lot of faith concerning a situation you know nothing about. The idea that "job creators" always do the right thing is a big fat fallacy. Remember the housing crash? The bailouts? The fact that its been "omg teh economy!" for 5 years now?

    3. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      I remember the housing crash - caused by perverse incentives and outright extortion from the government - and the bailouts, a corrupt government approach to a government-caused problem.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    4. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, if Bain Capital was called in, it is likely the company was in trouble, so she would have been laid off anyway.

      Conflicts with the later statements:

      Secondly, the owners of the company felt it was worth it to sell out to Bain, so they benefitted versus possibly having their investment worth nothing.

      This is pure capitalism, of course: get some money out, dump the people. The money that was getting paid out could have used for salvaging the company.

      Thirdly, the company had assets, and these assets have been redeployed to more profitable use, likely employing new people who you don't know.

      So why not continue to employ the old people one knows? Because one can possibly get a cheaper deal on new ones, and the company transfer is a good excuse not even to try.

      Strongly reminds me of burger vegetarians: they don't eat meat they have killed themselves. Pay someone else to bleed out the carcass, and your hands are clean of blood.

      There are laws against money-laundering. But money itself is responsibility-laundering: if you find someone willing to do the job for money, it's not your fault.

    5. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wasn't the last round caused by banks selling the mortgages on to other entities, and not telling them that the mortgages had already been sold? Then, when the other entities all decided they had priority, the mortgagee could only afford to pay one, and the other foreclosed, taking all their assets? Yeah, that's definitely the government there...

      Your faith is misplaced. Watch The Trap and learn why...

    6. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Believe in the Market....believe in the holy holy Doljus and be SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVED!

    7. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by fredrated · · Score: 1

      Wow, you get a lot out of pure speculation.

    8. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such a low id, such faith in Capitalism !

    9. Re:self-interest serve the wider interest. by TheSync · · Score: 2

      Such a low id, such faith in Capitalism !

      I have a low ID because I was in the Internet industry in the early days. I saw the value of angel investors, venture capital, public markets, and private capital organizations make this incredible network that we are communicating over right now.

      I was part of building the first e-commerce web sites. I was part of the first Internet video transmissions that now represent over 50% of Internet traffic, and let grandparents see their kids on the other side of the country or the world.

      I also have been involved in worldwide industry, and know how tough the regulatory environment is in developing countries - how it makes starting a (legal) company difficult, makes you scared to hire people you may not be able to ever fire, makes it difficult to legally import equipment, etc. There is a reason why these countries remain poor. Go there and try to do business, and you will figure it out.

  23. Great! by quilombodigital · · Score: 1

    Does this means he will fund Linux?

  24. messing with local elections??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Bill Gates combined forces with Bloomberg and the teacher's union in Douglas county to try to politically turn over the Douglas county schoolboard, AGAINST the will of the people in Douglas County. I don't want this kind of "philanthropy" from any of these types of people. No thanks.

  25. Philantropy for dummies by Tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'We want to give our wealth back to society in a way that has the most impact, and so we look for opportunities to invest for the largest returns.

    Well, Mr. Gates, here's how:

    Don't take away their wealth in the first place.

    It's well-established fact that the poor make the best use of money. There is less waste and more immediate progress than with any organisation or institute. Micro-credits are a blasting success wherever they are granted in the interest of helping people. (they fail when the same banks that caused the housing bubble/burst get in on the game hoping to make a quick buck, because they don't screen the applicants).

    Monopoly rent is known to damage the economy disproportionately. For every $ you give to charity now, Mr. Gates, you've already taken two away.

    "Don't be a greedy bastard." is a much, much better formula for helping other people than giving away even most of your money. Because it's not a zero-sum game, it's not just redistribution of wealth, the 1% gain most of their wealth not just by taking it from the rest, but by causing damage in excess of their profit.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:Philantropy for dummies by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Micro-credits are a blasting success wherever they are granted in the interest of helping people.

      Micro-credit exists where a functional banking system for the poor is regulated out of existence...it is more a symptom of an over-regulated & poor economy than a solution to one.

    2. Re:Philantropy for dummies by geekoid · · Score: 2

      "It's well-established fact that the poor make the best use of money.
      no they don't. They can't becasue ti takes money to us e money wisely. The poor do what they can to maximize the moment, and in the long run that is far more expensive.

      "There is less waste and more immediate progress than with any organisation or institute. "
      No. for the same reason as above.

      You want to help the poor? the best way I can see is double min. wage, and force them to put 15% away in a saving fund for 5 years.
      Another way would be to have planning be part of mandatory education, throughout their entire schooling.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Tom · · Score: 1

      They can't becasue ti takes money to us e money wisely.

      That's a myth.

      The poor do what they can to maximize the moment, and in the long run that is far more expensive.

      That, too.

      There is a mountain of evidence from the various micro-credit and micro-lending programs in place around the world. While there are some effects of the kind you mention, they are easily guarded against by screening applicants. Not even very deeply.

      You want to help the poor? the best way I can see is double min. wage,

      That is one reason the 1% have so much and poverty even exists anymore: The income gap. There's an interesting project in Switzerland - not exactly a country you'd count as communist - to limit the income of CEOs to 12 times that of their lowest-paid employees. Of course, the real goal is not to make the CEOs richer, but to give them an incentive to pay their people better.

      It asks some interesting questions, like: What exactly does the CEO of a company do that makes him worth more per hour than the people who actually manufacture the products earn in a week ?

      However, the formula is actually the very same that I was getting at: Don't hand out money, stop taking it away in the first place.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    4. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Tom · · Score: 2

      Micro-credit exists where a functional banking system for the poor is regulated out of existence...it is more a symptom of an over-regulated & poor economy than a solution to one.

      Where do you get your information from? Some of the countries that have the highest success rates with micro-credits have pretty much no regulation whatsoever in banking.

      Banks don't do what micro-credits do, period. If they would, they had a century to prove it and failed. Interestingly, after micro-credits were successful to the point of attracting the interest of the Nobel Price committee, several banks tried to move into this sector, smelling good business. They failed miserably.

      If nothing else, that proves that you're dead wrong. Even where no regulations or economy stop them, banks a) didn't provide this service and b) when they tried it was a failure. In the same countries, micro-credits driven by non-profit interests were and are successful.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    5. Re:Philantropy for dummies by labnet · · Score: 1

      I'd like to add to Toms comments.

      Micro finance is a system of loaning small amounts (avg $130) to the very poor, who use it as capital to start a business. eg They might buy a Pig, or Sowing machine. The lender usually forms a group of about 15 people who meet weekly and co-guarentee their loans. The weekly meeting allows mentoring and accountability. Women make up >90% of the loan applicants (because 3rd world men can be lazy pricks) and have defaults of less than 2 percent. Microfinance really lifts people out of poverty by increasing productivity of the community.
      It requires the lender to love their client in a way no commercial bank would/could, thus it is predominantly executed by Christian (and Muslim) organisations who have an accountable humanitarian desire.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_International

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grameen_Bank

      --
      46137
    6. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is funny reading a bunch of rich geeks pontificate about what the poor do and don't do, without citing a single statistic to back any of it up.

      Do you realize that doubling the minimum wage will also result in a net loss of jobs? The few who have jobs will be better off, and the rest will be even worse off. It will make it even harder for entrepreneurs to start new businesses, which will give even more of an advantage to the large monopolies (which means less competition and hence even fewer jobs).

      Also, your forced savings is basically what Social Security taxes are.

    7. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, "regulated out of existence", good riddance since ursury where the poor have to pay a 3000% interest isn't much better. Rather have banks regulated where they don't deal with me because they think it's a bad investment rather than stealing what few possessions I have left because of the 3000% interest.

      3000% interest? Can't be true? Yes it can, unregulated micro loans over the phone in Sweden. When the gov't just hinted at regulating the assholes they all fled. The parent commenter would probably consider it "hinted out of existence".

    8. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly has Bill Gates been taking wealth from third world countries? We are talking about areas where 99%+ of any software is pirated.

      He's taken plenty of money from wealthy Western companies and individuals.

      Robbing the rich to give to the poor. I don't see the problem here.

    9. Re:Philantropy for dummies by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      It's well-established fact that the poor make the best use of money.

      That explains why jobless single women on welfare are rich. Oh, wait...

      You're missing something. There's more to micro-credits than poverty.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    10. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I don't necessarily like Mr Gates or agree with all of his philanthropic strategy, I think it's dumb to diss the some of the 1% who are trying to do something - anything that isn't a high society social event dressed up as a fundraiser.

      If I had his money I'd be having blow jobs at breakfast and... and... nope, that's pretty much where my daily ambition would end.

    11. Re:Philantropy for dummies by ChrisMaple · · Score: 0

      You want to help the poor? the best way I can see is double min. wage...

      And the next week, you'll be wondering why their greedy employer declared bankruptcy and went out of business.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    12. Re:Philantropy for dummies by ChrisMaple · · Score: 0

      That you think that a CEO's actions can be defined exactly, explains why you don't understand that he's worth his salary.

      The CEO has a multitude of responsibilities, plus he must create the company's future, plus he must respond to unpredictable events outside the company. If he makes a serious mistake, the company may be destroyed.

      The worker seldom does anything not rote, and a mistake means he's broken a widget.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    13. Re:Philantropy for dummies by JakartaDean · · Score: 1

      It seems that Tom's post is stuck at 2, and I don't understand why, so let me chime in. He's right. I have managed CSR programs in Indonesia, including one at a firm where they had previously invested around $10,000 to establish a microfinance lender. The lender has grown every year, and now has deposits and loans worth around 250,000. They employ people, but nothing compared to the employment their borrowers create. They are careful about screening applicants, and people pay back -- NPL (Non-performing loans) under 2%. I have had experiences with other projects which have generated much poorer returns, I suspect largely due to poor enforcement of the obligation to make regular payments. This stuff is capitalism at it's absolutest finest.

      Banks can't do this stuff because their overheads and cost allocation models tell them it's unprofitable for them. That doesn't mean it doesn't work just fine if you don't have their overhead allocation methods. The only alternative for the rural near-poor (under $2 / day) are loan sharks, who charge 5-15% interest per month, which is a good example of unregulated banking at its lowest.

      --
      The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
    14. Re:Philantropy for dummies by TheSync · · Score: 1

      I have managed CSR programs in Indonesia

      Indonesia's banking system still needs reform:

      "The Indonesian banking system is centered around 30 inefficient public sector banks that control over 40 per cent of bank assets. The central government owns four banks, and 26 regional development banks are owned by one province or jointly by a number of provinces. The dominance of public banks stems from policies issued in 1967 by the New Order government, which required all public sector entities (including about 150 state-owned enterprises) to deposit their financial assets at state-owned banks. Meanwhile, the financial assets of local governments (including their enterprises) had to be deposited only at the local province-held bank. In 2012, the four state-owned banks still controlled 36.3 per cent of all assets held by banks in Indonesia."

      Let me know when Indonesia privatizes all banks, ends regulations requiring SOEs to deposit their money in certain banks, and fully opens up the banking sector to international competition...

      It is trivial even for the poorest people in the US to get a credit card or bank account. In other countries with corrupt government-controlled banking sectors, they need micro-credit.

    15. Re:Philantropy for dummies by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Some of the countries that have the highest success rates with micro-credits have pretty much no regulation whatsoever in banking.

      What countries are you speaking of? India, where public sector banks have 70% of the sector's assets and new bank licenses are a "once in a decade affair"? Or where mobile money schemes like M-PESA are forced by regulation to be attached to a bank?

      Or Bangladesh, where the 2013 Index of Economic Freedom says "Reform of the financial sector has been ongoing, but government ownership and interference remain considerable, undermining much-needed increases in efficiency"?

    16. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said, I was about to post this same but found yours first. I can't believe this clown calls this rent seeking philantropy.

      I'll consider changing my opinion on Gates philantropy the day he makes a sizable donation to the Free Software Foundation to try and undo a small part of his sins.

    17. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I understand the role of a CEO. I've worked closely with the C-level executives in the #3 company in its sector in my country for 8 years.

      The typical Cxx works long and hard and I've seen first hand that some have sacrificed family and marriages for the company. I never said they aren't worth a solid salary.

      But what exactly does the CEO do that justifies one thousand times the salary of an average worker in his company? That's why the Switzerland proposal is interesting. They don't deny that the CEO is worth several times a low-grade worker. They just say that there's a limit. That he can be worth five, six, ten or twelve times as much, but not 200, 500, or 1000.

      Think about it. Some of the CEOs of large companies earn more than an entire factory, combined. If you seriously claim that that's what they are worth, then you are the one making the extraordinary claim and thus you are the one who needs to provide evidence for his claim.

      The worker seldom does anything not rote, and a mistake means he's broken a widget.

      Only if your definition of "worker" begins and ends with burger flipping at McD.

      I've been and worked with regular employees whose responsibilities and skills were essential to the company. I've been in a position were a company of 150 people could have shut down if me and two others had left. I've seen employees sweat over tasks because mistakes would cost the company seven-digit figures.

      Oh, and next time you fly: That pilot who has your life in his hands, he's a "worker who seldom does anything not rote", too.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    18. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Tom · · Score: 2

      I don't get why you weren't moderated up.

      Yes, it is great that at least he's giving something to charity.

      I will still continue to diss him, because calling him a good person now also means accepting how he acquired the money he now gives away. There's even a term for what Gates is doing: Whitewashing.

      I stand by my words: The better thing would have been to not take this money first of all. Giving it away now is better than keeping it, yes, but only marginally so.

      Why? Because it is not a zero-sum game. Economics tells us that monopoly rent disproportionally damages the economy. For every $ he gives to charity now, he has already causes several $ in damage. He's a criminal who took everyone's cow and now offers to give everyone a free chicken. Sure, better than having nothing, but not having your cow stolen would've been the better solution.

      So, as long as Gates does not speak out against the monopoly-rent collection his company is still engaging in, his charity work is fundamentally dishonest.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    19. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Tom · · Score: 1

      We live in a world where everything is interconnected.

      If you think you can take from A and give to B and there is no causal connections between A and B, you are missing the complexity of the world.

      Fortunately, even in complex systems, there are a few well-established facts. One of them is that monopolies are damaging to the system as a whole even if you count in the monopoly-rent collected.

      No matter how much money he gives to charity, Gates total contribution to humanity is negative.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    20. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Tom · · Score: 3, Informative

      Do you realize that doubling the minimum wage will also result in a net loss of jobs?

      For someone who complained about lack of citations and statistics the sentence before, you sure make bold claims with nothing to back them up.

      Loss of jobs has been the #1 agenda item for those against... uh, actually pretty much anything that might help the low-income people, be it minimum wage, unions, employee protection laws or really anything else.

      Rarely is there any evidence for it. Two recent papers show that there is no significant impact:
      http://www.nber.org/papers/w4509
      http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf

      Now pony up your evidence or accept you've fallen for cheap rhetorics.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    21. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy balls, that was an epic smackdown. You win an Internets. I don't deserve the one I scored a few months ago, you can have it.

    22. Re:Philantropy for dummies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that's why the number one predictor of corporate success is being slightly taller than average.

      Across all companies, this is the only common denominator of CEOs.

    23. Re:Philantropy for dummies by RuffMasterD · · Score: 1

      Totally agree. These salaries are usually set by the directors, who are themselves former C-levels at other companies, so each scratches the others back for mutual benefit. Nobody would turn down 100 times average salary if offered. I wouldn't turn it down myself, so I don't blame them, but there is now way one person can do as much work as 100 or more people, no matter how smart they are or how hard they worked to get there.

      I would really like to see a system where employees set the C-level salaries, just like the C-levels set employee salaries. The whole system should reach an equilibrium. If employees take a pay cut, then the employees will retaliate by giving C-levels a pay cut. Fair is fair. If employees set C-level salaries too low and good talent leaves then everyone will suffer, so it is in employees best interest to set it high enough. C-level wants a bonus, then they better pay it forward. Want a private jet? Better shit gold buddy otherwise it ain't gonna happen. Everyone should be accountable to everyone else.

      --
      Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
  26. Just a smoke screen....... by BlindBear · · Score: 1

    Bill wants you all to love him, that's all.... and vote him a Nobel Peace prize for saving the world. He's been trying for a while now, one wonders how much money he has invested in pursuit of the prize.

    --
    I prefer Classic Slashdot.
  27. No thanks by paiute · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After the way he "improved" my computing experience over the last few decades, I will take my chances without his plan.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  28. gates's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Gates'

    The apostrophe defeats programmers yet again. Programmers who eagerly want to learn as many complex and disparate ways of doing the same thing but are confused for all eternity by '

  29. Gates = inBloom, Common Core, and NSA Kinect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bill Gates is a depravity who is PROUD to model himself on the founders of America's 'great' eugenic foundations- you know, the organisations that gave the world "racial science" that Hitler and the Nazis (amongst other monsters) so willingly adopted. Go read about the history of IBM and the Nazis of WW2.

    Of late, Gates has been the main driving force behind three horrifying initiatives in the USA
    1) The inBloom full surveillance database of every child in the USA, across the entirety of their childhood. Bill Gates built the inBloom system in partnership with Rupert Murdoch. Now I KNOW you sheeple are thick- so very very thick- but how do you explain Rupert (FOX NEWS) Murdoch working hand in hand with Bill (MSNBC) Gates, when you sheeple are told that every conventional 'liberal' considers the war mongering right wing filth behind Fox News to be the very definition of evil?

    2) The 'Common Core' curriculum. You cannot dumb down people properly unless you take control of their early education.

    3) The 'NSA in every home' platform we know as the Xbox Kinect 2 sensor system. When SF, futurist and political writers of the past wanted to BANG their readers over the head with a vision of the ultimate nightmarish police-state future, they imagined a world where every ordinary person had government cameras in their own homes, and government broadcast services that could not be switched off. No sane person wants the government in their homes, and none of the early adopters of the WWW (which obviously excludes Gates and Microsoft- they were VERY late to the party under Gates' braindead leadership) desired that the Internet would take that direction.

    Gates, like Tony Blair, travels the world, meeting with people FAR more important than you (by the definitions of 'importance' used by Blair, Gates, and the other monsters in their circle), constantly pushing a single theme- modern technology, including the media and computers, MUST be used to take rigid control of the sheeple once and for all. Gates is a member of Blair's Fabian cult- a cult that states that ALL types of Human must be given the chance to rise to the top (no racism or any similar pathetic nonsense tolerated). BUT, after a suitable period where equality of opportunity has existed, those that fail to rise to the top MUST be recognised as cattle, just as those that successfully rose are recognised as 'masters'.

    Gates and Blair both actively call for a massive cull of the 'useless eaters'- a process by which the 'ideal' population of the Earth is determined, and excess population eliminated by any possible means. Blair tells all those that will,listen that this MUST be accomplished by another World War- cleansing the Earth and moving Mankind into the next era, just as his ilk claim WW2 (and to a lesser extent WW1) did. Gates prefers a more 'scientific' approach to the culling of billions of Humans. Like those that headed America's eugenic foundations before him, Gates would prefer a world that accepted compulsory sterilisation and euthanasia.

    The NSA revelations should have blown away any illusions you sheeple have about the inherent 'goodness' of your masters. Humans who achieve power over other humans inevitably despise those people who accept their position in life 'on their knees'. When you let Gates put NSA spying in your home via the Xbox One, or do not destroy Gates' inBloom and Core Curriculum assaults against your children in your local communities- then you are choosing to live on your knees.

  30. figured this needed repeating... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Oh, and Bill Gates is a corrupt lying fuck that I would not trust with my used toilet paper, let alone tell us what changes we need to make in the world or what sciences we should be studying.

  31. Really Bill? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    I am a devout fan of capitalism. It is the best system ever devised for making self-interest serve the wider interest. This system is responsible for many of the great advances that have improved the lives of billions—from airplanes to air-conditioning to computers.

    Airplanes got invented by individuals - the french were gliding down hillsides and the Wrights read about that and said "fuckin' cool lets do that" and then did it better than anyone else. Only after did they try to commercialize it and capitalism caused some ugly things along the way. Air conditioning I'm not sure about. And Computers were invented for war, not capitalism. Of course business will take anything and try to market it to everyone in order to make a buck, so business does bring advances to the people. That doesn't mean it's the only way, but it was proven effective. In general it doesn't cause innovation. Shit, DOS was a personal project that Bill Gates bought from his friend (without disclosing who he was selling it to and hence got it relatively cheap) - point is that these things often come about due to interests other than capitalism.

    1. Re:Really Bill? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your invented for war point is bang-on. Computers are probably one of the most subsidised businesses ever to exist outside of pure weapons manufacturing. We can look at the WW2 projects like Bletchley's code-breakers & similar work in the US (interestingly Konrad Zuse in Germany invented his own computing machines and the Nazis didn't see it as a military priority, hence damning the Germans to obscurity in the history of information technology). After the war the US government was buying up almost all the transistors for military projects. Most of the university machines were paid for by Uncle Sam's generous taxpayers & considerable amounts of underlying science research was indirectly funded by the military, often in secret. From satellites to ICs, to AI projects ('smart missiles' etc.) to GPS and the Internet's core, the computer industry has long had public sector benefactors.

      These days? Sure Amazon & Google have their clouds, but government still purchases most supercomputers & funds speculative tech (Look at Sandia Lab's Mems page for instance). The taxpayer coughs up the money for all those millions of computers in schools we apparently need to teach kids MS Office. Decades of public research have also unfortunately given us drones and the world's best hacking agency, the NSA.

      To be fair the private sector & Bill's cohort did figure out you could build an affordable computer from cheap parts, but the parts were only cheap thanks to the American taxpayer.

      There's an interesting point though about American capitalism - the military spend years funding a specific technology, then when its done its classified/war stuff basically give it to the private sector who immediately make pots of cash and are hailed as wonder boys for building new businesses*. This is the principle reason why American high-tech still dominates but the mainstream press ignore because, well, its kind of an example of working socialism and we can't have that now, can we?

      *i.e. GPS on phones, civilian drones used in media/police work, self-driving cars, private space flight (for fun look at the recent videos of the SpaceX Grasshopper taking off - then compare to the Delta clipper from 20 years ago).

    2. Re:Really Bill? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go ahead and try to fly a Wright Brothers airplane across the country to visit your folks for Christmas. Good luck with that one.

      Have fun taking a 1940's computer and doing anything with it.

      Even if you had the raw materials and tools, you couldn't begin to produce all the air conditioners routinely used in the tropical parts of the world.

      "Advances that improve the lives of billions" does not mean the same thing as "being the first to do something on a toy scale".

      You benefit from enormous numbers of innovations, every single day, and don't have the slightest clue that they exist. Hundreds of thousands of scientists and engineers have developed the tens of thousands of innovations that make the modern microchip possible, which in turn makes things like computers, cell phones, and modern cars possible (not to mention high end medical diagnostic equipment that saves people's lives every day).

      Every paper published in a peer-reviewed article on any of the myriad aspects of chip design contains an innovation, in the eyes of the reviewers. Innovation happens on an astonishing scale in today's world, and capitalism in turn provides the incentives and funding that makes that possible.

      Despite having many smart people, the folks in India, China, and the Soviet Union were never able to keep up with the West (in terms of overall innovation) while they pursued state controlled economies. They weren't even within shouting distance. That's rapidly changing, now that the state controlled economies are largely a thing of the past.

      You badly need to correct the gaps in your education. Go read at least three books on economics (pick different authors), and another three on manufacturing.

  32. Bill Gates's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's not how apostrophes work.

  33. Well... by Ramirozz · · Score: 1

    "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." I think that is true enough... may be just a saying but how in hell he will do that. I mean. First, Capitalism is a competitive thing... people loose, people win, that should be clear even for Bill Gates. What we need here to erradicate poverty is a cooperative system. Money is just a device, an invention that grew bigger than its purpose. This guy may be the smartests guy alive for business but he needs to see outside the box. Funny thing is he has the time and the money to do so... so questions arise on what is the real plan or how he plans to do it. For as long as I remember each year we have more benefical concerts, programs, donations, etc... the amount of money destined to charity is huge... I agree is not well managed but poverty increases at a higher rate. Something must be wrong in the wiring of capitalism.

    --
    http://www.quasarcr.com/
    1. Re:Well... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 0

      What we need here to erradicate poverty is a cooperative system.

      What do we need to eradicate your illiteracy?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  34. so bill will open source and make free windows? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so bill will open source and make free windows?

  35. Re:a wealthy, intelligent idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Has it ever occurred to you that if capitalism worked so well 100 years ago, we wouldn't have instituted the policies we did?

  36. Re:Ouch by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Bill Gates isn't some evil person. He ran a business, did some thing we don'y like, paid for those mistakes.
    Now he is rich and helping the world.

    He is a person.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  37. 33.1 trillion tax evaded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    40.1 trillion world debt

    imagine if the bill gates rich pricks were not all busy lying and cheating and then giving lil tidbits to make themselves look good how the world will be

    1. Re:33.1 trillion tax evaded by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I'm unclear, does that mean I should feel sorry for myself compared to people living with endemic malaria?

  38. Re:a wealthy, intelligent idiot by geekoid · · Score: 1

    " The rich of today pale in comparison to the wealthy of the last century. "
    laughably false.

    ", the 'wealth gap' was much wider, yet the standard of living for the poor was rising, "

    It was rising because the gap was getting narrower.

    " not falling the way it is today."
    when the gap is increasing.

    100 years ago free market enslaved children in sweat shops, poisoned bodies of water, allow real owners to destroy anything in their past. Whole cities would have coal ash in the air all the time, created monopolies that remove choice.

    Study some fucking history.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  39. A Free Press Foundation by al0ha · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Jeezus Bill, if both you and Warren Buffet really want to make the greatest impact on humanity, use every cent of your wealth to establish a global free press foundation beholden to no person or government. Only via this method can humankind be as sure as is humanly possible that we're getting an unbiased view. Fund a Free Press Foundation now!

    --
    Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
  40. Re:Ouch by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

    He is a person.

    People suck.

  41. How Do I Get My Ideas in Front of Him? by Jhyrryl · · Score: 1

    I'm guessing that he's not taking submissions...just pursuing things on his own?

    --
    Jhyrryl
  42. Re:a wealthy, intelligent idiot by careysub · · Score: 1

    The rich of today pale in comparison to the wealthy of the last century. Rockefellers, Carnegies had 10 times as much wealth as Bill Gates, the 'wealth gap' was much wider, yet the standard of living for the poor was rising, not falling the way it is today.

    Wow! 10 times more!? Got a source for this interesting claim? You wouldn't just be makin' stuff up would you?

    From what I can find the incomes of the top 1%, and the top 0.01%, etc., is at or above the GDP share of the beginning of the 20th century.

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
  43. The road ahead by amightywind · · Score: 0

    But capitalism alone can't address the needs of the very poor.

    Your signal to double down on capitalism.

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
  44. Re: Most of the problems listed have a single caus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The argument "it worked for the ancient people it must be OK" is not a good one. Although it may have indeed been helpful, people of ancient times would also tell you that acupuncture works and that rhino horn will give you a bigger human horn. Some people still believe that today because it is ancient tradition, see the theme here? Keeping religion out of habit is a pretty poor idea if there were some alternative that didn't leave people willfully ignorant and hostile to advances in society. Don't just get rid of religion, replace it with something more attractive and less damaging. What that alternative is, I have no idea, we can only hope its not Google +

  45. Overpopulation. Period. by srobert · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "poverty, disease, hunger, war, poor education, bad governance, political instability, weak trade, or mistreatment of women". We could add deforestation, global warming, dwindling supplies of fresh water, etc.
    But aren't all these symptoms of an exploding human population over the last few centuries and especially the last few decades. If you don't do something to fix that problem, then you're wasting your time and money on anything else. I like capitalism too but I don't think capitalism solves all problems and a fair number of problems are better addressed with socialism.

  46. Re: OpenSource by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is fucking stupid.

    Sort of like Republicans proposing tax cuts like a solution to everything, even if the problem was a meteor smashing into the Earth's surface.

  47. How by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Bill Gates has found the biggest way to impact the world with his money is to make sure African women can't reproduce.

  48. Aimed at US readership by golodh · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Please keep in mind that Bill Gates' interview was aimed at a US readership, and that comes with certain complexities.

    All of us know that whosoever dares criticise the "free market" in any form or way whatsoever in front of a US audience will automatically be branded a 'Bleeding Heart Liberal', a 'Socialist', if not 'Communist' by that same audience (depending on their mood and how threatened they feel) without further investigation of what he actually has to say.

    Practically the only way a US audience will pause long enough to actually listen is to bring impeccable credentials as a 'Capitalist' and to start off by clear endorsements of Capitalism in general. Only then is it considered acceptable to point out one or two weaknesses or deficiencies of the system and suggest improvements.

    This is what Bill Gates has done, and he's one of the few people alive who can not only say something like that and still be listened to, but who *wants* to point anything like that out to the world. I guess that Warren Buffet is another, but I wouldn't know many others. That's why he said that.

    And please note that the quality of MS software or its competitive practices have no bearing on the issue.

    1. Re:Aimed at US readership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My pasty white hairy ass they don't have any bearing on the issue! He obtained the money he's supposedly "giving back" from just those two things. He talks about how one's self-interest can serve the whole, but no one is taking into account whether or not what he's giving back makes up for what he stole. I for one doubt that anything he's doing makes up financially for the damage done by the monopoly he created setting back the entire computing industry. We're still suffering from it to this day.

    2. Re:Aimed at US readership by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of us know that whosoever dares criticise the "free market" in any form or way whatsoever in front of a US audience will automatically be branded a 'Bleeding Heart Liberal', a 'Socialist', if not 'Communist' by that same audience (depending on their mood and how threatened they feel) without further investigation of what he actually has to say.

      Thanks for the propaganda. Try reading any economics journal published in the US, or any of the "introductions to economics" books written for non-specialists. You'll see lots of criticisms of various aspects of the free market, and often plenty of investigation of what other people have said, without anybody being branded.

  49. Well, 5 years ago I would have suggested .. by OhANameWhatName · · Score: 1

    outlining his strategy to improve people's lives

    His resignation and suicide. But since he's put in such a fine effort to date, I'm inclined to be more leniant.

  50. Bill Gates...Parasitic Robber Baron. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The people that truly made the great discoveries of the modern age made very little. Gates road his particular brand of morally bankrupt and ethically void "Capitalism to billions. And he is still focused on making the most of others suffering. Witness his "The first hit is free" work with the pharmecutical companies, and his foundations track record of investing in companies doing more harm than good. The world will be much better when he goes the way of Steve Jobs, hopefully with more pain

  51. Here's a bold first step! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It could start with getting rid of MS Windows!

    I kid, I kid! :D

  52. Cognitive Dissonance For Bill by organgtool · · Score: 2

    .I am a devout fan of capitalism....turn more of the world's IQ toward devising solutions to problems that only people in the poor world face.

    Capitalism is all about maximizing profit, so using the world's IQ toward devising solutions for people who cannot afford to buy products is a horrible capitalist strategy. It's taking resources that could be spent on maximizing profits by developing products for more profitable demographics and shifting them towards something systemically unprofitable. I'm not trying to take anything away from the hard work that Bill is doing - he seems determined to use his money to make the world a better place, but I can't help but see some cognitive dissonance going on in his defense of capitalism.

  53. Re: Hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are unable to love but fake it towards people. Even if they didn't pick up on that on a subconscious level, they could still never love you because the only person they get to meet is the role you play for them. You are your own punishment, so you seek to spread your sickness to others but emotionally healthy people will never eat your shit because they instantly realize what a sad, empty existence it must be to live in your hell.

  54. Re:Ouch by davydagger · · Score: 1

    he didn't pay for those mistakes, he simply bought a cover up.

    Charity and donations won't change the nature of the system of exploitation.
    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2010/sep/29/gates-foundation-gm-monsanto

    especially when its for profit.

  55. Re:Ouch by davydagger · · Score: 1

    He's also critizing capitalism elsewhere to shift the blame of his own, continuing capitalist endevors.

    He also uses his status as a philinthroper to specificly target and silence unrelated critism of himself and his work at microsoft.

  56. Re: Most of the problems listed have a single caus by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    The argument "it worked for the ancient people it must be OK" is not a good one.

    Oh? Has basic human nature taken a sudden radical evolutionary turn since the beginnings of modern human societies some 5,000 years ago?

    Although it may have indeed been helpful, people of ancient times would also tell you that acupuncture works and that rhino horn will give you a bigger human horn. Some people still believe that today because it is ancient tradition, see the theme here?

    I never said religion was not without faults, pitfalls, and dangers. Religions, like governments, are made up of people susceptible to all the faults that all people are susceptible to.

    Hence why you're far more likely to be killed by your own government than any terrorist group However, as you noted and I also noted in my preceding post, there hasn't been any comparable belief system tried that could take it's place without horrific consequences.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  57. Billy Gates by Suffering+Bastard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's hard for me to see Bill Gates beyond being a spoiled, insecure boy. He talks about all these grand visions (The Road Ahead, et al) yet clearly is out of touch with the real world and the realities of human nature to the point that he dreams up these fanciful dreams of utopia that only get taken seriously because he happens to be insanely rich. It's hard for me to see Bill Gates as machiavellian or otherwise diabolical (not that he doesn't throw a good capitalist tantrum now and again), because he's so clearly scared of being caught for what he isn't -- a man in charge of his own fate. He can't possibly be able to imagine living a life not saddled to his silver, free to be bold like many of the "not haves". If he were to no longer "have", then he'd lose the very thing that defines him -- massive wealth. His ego must be terrified at the idea that he is nothing more than paper and ink.

    So he props up these grand visions and philanthropic ventures as a way to give validation to his existence, never manning up to working out his own inner deficiencies. And since he lacks the real world understanding to do so himself, he allies with Warren Buffet types to guide him on what he should do, swallowing completely their belief in the supremacy of the capitalist ethos. But his "plans to improve our world" always come off as childish and unworkable. Indeed, can anyone here enumerate the number of grand plans Bill Gates has put forth that have fulfilled their objectives in improving our world? (that's an honest question, by the way)

    --
    "Molest me not with this pocket calculator stuff."
    - Deep Thought
    1. Re:Billy Gates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > plans to improve our world" always come off as childish and unworkable.

      Tell that to the folks that now won't die of Malaria.

  58. about taht: Dear X v Y noobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humans are the anomaly to the perfect economy.

    Think about the age old saying "power corrupts". A man can be corrupted into abusing his power, but people are just as guilty of this. Think about the part of our government who's careers depend on take from the rich and give to poor.

    That's why Marx said that socialism was an inevitability, it is. It has to be. As more of the population realizes they can keep getting free shit, they'll keep electing those officials responsible.

    But on the bright side, there will eventually be a revolution against the future communistic state that ends up emerging from the collapsing capitalistic system in place, and the process can start all over again.

  59. Thanks for Spending Android Patent Royalties by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bill,

    How about giving back by accomplishing the following:

    -Lobby to fix the patent system. We all know that software should not be covered.
    -Kill Intellectual Ventures. Your (and Nathan's) ace-in-the-hole troll.
    -Stop taxing the competition. 2 Billion a year from Android Royalties?

    Oh yeah. You bent the system to make those nightmares a reality.

  60. Thanks for making this point by aendeuryu · · Score: 1

    "There's an inverse relationship between income and charity. The more you make, the less you give, proportionally speaking."

    Compounding this problem is the fact that we tolerate it.

    A recent example of this is with the recent Philippines tsunami. The NBA players association decided to give 250,000 in relief aid, as mentioned in a PR statement that was apparently issued with some pride. In case it's not clear, we're talking about a group of crazy-rich athletes with an average salary of $5,000,000 donating about $600 each. To see just how terrible this, consider this. If you earn $50,000 a year, and you decided to forego a $25 pizza for the family for one week and donated that money to the disaster victims, mathematically you're FOUR TIMES as generous as an NBA player.

    They recently decided to double it to $500,000. What a bunch of heroes.

    And yeah, before you ask, I gave. I earn less than $30,000 a year, and I sent over $100. I'm not knocking anybody in my pay range for not sending as much. I'm talking about the superrich expecting accolades for doing jack shit, and the idiotic masses obliging them.

    1. Re:Thanks for making this point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really don't see how relevant someones income is to the size of the donation. Disaster relief is paid in currency, not in percentage of donor income.

  61. Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm glad he's such a fan of Capitalism.

    Now where exactly does one find this capitalism? Whatever the system in the US of A is, it is not capitalism, just mislabeled as such. Government regulations prevent true private decisions.

  62. You wanna make the world a better place, Bill? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go kill yourself.

  63. Subterfuge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the Real Shit Hole.

  64. Re:a wealthy, intelligent idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That value is inflation adjusted based on CPI, which you and I both know is complete bullshit. The important question is how does their net worth compare when measured in kilograms of rhodium?

  65. InBloom by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

    I was getting a better opinion about Bill Gates with his charitable efforts and then he went and created InBloom (along with Rupert Murdoch's News Corp). For those who don't know, InBloom was created to help school districts manage data. To that end, they are collecting hundreds of data points on students. Examples include home addresses, SSN, medial diagnoses (autism/deafness/emotional disturbance), whether they were disciplined and how much including any jail time, and whether the student gets pregnant. To make matters worse, they are storing it in the cloud. (We all know cloud storage is 100% secure, right?) Not only don't they need parental approval (the law governing schools protecting student information was amended to allow the schools to participate), but parents can't even opt out. Yes, if you have kids in Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Kentucky, North Carolina, Massachusetts, Louisiana, or New York, your childs' information may already be in the cloud.

    Thanks, Gates for seriously compromising my son's personal information and leaving me nearly powerless to stop it. (I can protest, but the politicians here have all drunk large amounts of InBloom Kool-Aid and think us parents are just annoying pests to be ignored.)

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  66. Wasted Brains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the 1940s through the 1990s, half the world's scientists worked on the nuclear arms race. Now most of the top math graduates are quants, writing programs that exploit the expected behavior of other quants' programs in order to make money on stock market trades. How do we pull brain power into anything worthwhile?

  67. Double speak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am a devout fan of EVOLUTION. It is the best system ever devised for making self-interest serve the wider interest...

    There's just this nasty bit involving death, so if we can just get the sharks to start babysitting the little fishies instead of eating them, but golly, all will be well!

  68. Have to agree with Gates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Capitalism cannot help those who are the victims of Capitalism.
    From wage theft to theft of time, from exploitative financing of necessary services or goods, from payday check cashing for 10% of gross pay to sleezy salesmen of Capitalist solutions for unemployment (Start your OWN business they said, with what came the reply, followed by silence), the gain of the few is paid for with the destitution of the many.
    This is not an accident, this is the design criteria for Capitalism, just as Adam Smith noted in his seminal treatise, An Inquiry into the sources of the Wealth of the Nations.
    When communism starves 20 million to death, it is because someone refused the tenets of Communism.
    When Capitalism sets the price of food just above the 'feed everyone' level, using the simultaneous equations that yield maximum income, and starves 12,000 PER DAY in Capitalist India, it is because everyone who has food OBEYS the tenets of Capitalism.

  69. Re:a wealthy, intelligent idiot by tragedy · · Score: 2

    While you've been exceptionally polite about just how right you are, I somehow can't feel too bad pointing out a small flaw in your reasoning. The method of calculating his adjusted wealth used there is percentage of GDP, not standard adjusted dollars. In regular old adjusted dollars, his net worth, when he had $1.5 billion sometime around 1930 was about $21 billion. It actually goes up if you go back a bit, but it never goes up above about $25 billion in adjusted dollars. If you think about that in terms of wages, a job that roughly equates to a minimum wage job in 1914 would be 50 cents per hour. Map that to a modern $8.00 an hour job and you're looking at about a 16 times increase, so that pretty much puts Rockerfeller's wealth, relative to the average working stiff of his time, in the neighborhood of a modern billionaire with something like $20 to $30 billion.

    The percentage of GDP theory is an interesting one, but it isn't a realistic way of comparing wealth across a century of time. The problem is that you're basically saying that a big 10 kg fish in a small pond is bigger than a 20 kg fish in the ocean beause one is in a small pond and the other is in the ocean. Would rockerfeller have been richer if he had the same wealth and moved to a country with a smaller GDP (but the same or higher gdp per capita)? Would he have been poorer if he moved to a country with a larger GDP (but, once again, the same GDP per capita)?

  70. He's making it worse by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    You could make a good case for poverty, disease, hunger, war, poor education, bad governance, political instability, weak trade, or mistreatment of women

    I recall that he's doing work on disease and education, and he supports certain political beliefs. It looks like he's making some headway on disease, but his political choices are dubious. He's active in developing and proselytizing "Common Core", a markedly inferior lockstep education system that extends America's slide into inferiority.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  71. Is he going to shutter mickeysoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is he going to shut down mickeysoft for good, give back all the money he stole from companies/developers and confess to the federal courts? No? If not then quit posting this rubbish on /.

  72. Monopolies by Kirth · · Score: 1

    Ah, yes, it sure helps to lobby for strong copyright protections so the poor won't be able to afford education. And while we're at it, also lobby for veto-rights on ideas, so if any poor sob has the same idea as you already patented can be sued into oblivion.

    Hypocrisy at its best.

    --
    "The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
  73. Strange Thing (TM) by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    Very rarely have I agreed with Bill Gates to such an extent.

    My 2 cents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  74. Whatum you mean 'We' ... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People who use the term 'We' are usually the ones who talk big but wind up spending other peoples money.

    Cmon Master of Shoddy, start using the personally responsible word 'I' when you speack of such things.

  75. THIS by armahillo · · Score: 1

    "But capitalism alone can't address the needs of the very poor."

    Nice to see a hyper-wealthy businessperson actually admit this.

  76. Out of touch by xednieht · · Score: 1

    If capitalism is so great why is the U.S. only #1 is stealing wages from workers? The U.S. ranks poorly in healthcare value, education, quality of life, and a host of other areas. Whatever the U.S. has, it is certainly NOT capitalism. Try selling narcotics and see how capitalism works for you.

    --

    Hope is the currency of fools
  77. one more by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    Prong 3: get rid of Windows 8

  78. Gates vs. Jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Compare the people: Bill Gates - Steve Jobs. Both fought hard for their companies, etc. However, that is where the similarities end. I find the only redeeming quality about Micro$oft is Bill Gates and his charities. The same can't be said for Steve Jobs, the iDick. The "I" pun was intended.

  79. You don't say? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    "This means market-driven innovation can actually widen the gap between rich and poor."

    Somehow I see republicans everywhere hissing "lies!" *gasp*

  80. Atheism is more often faith-based than not. by Medievalist · · Score: 1

    Atheism is not a "tenet". It is simply the lack of faith in the supernatural.

    There are at least a half dozen distinct different forms of atheism. The few that are inherently compatible with agnosticism are not faith-based, but the rest of them quite necessarily are.

    But your definition of atheism is easily disproved anyway; absolute statements require only one counterexample. I have no belief in the "supernatural" whatsoever. Everything that exists, exists in nature. I am not an atheist and would resent being called one; I am an ordained religious theist (pantheist, essential monist variety). Therefore your definition of atheism is false, according to the rules of logic and science.

    Did you know that there are several atheist religions? Did you know that many atheists believe in the supernatural? No, of course you didn't. We are all subject to the Dunning-Kruger effect; if you decide to study theology you'll be come less confident of your understanding of atheism the more you learn. A planet is smooth as a billiard ball if you look at it from far enough away.

  81. Another talk about where tech seems to be headed. by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

    An interesting talk about what Tech tends to do and what Tech should do.

  82. This from the guy who replaced DOS with crappy Win by MXB2001 · · Score: 0

    Yeah right, thanks Bill for dumbing down computers. Just what we need, more "help" from this guy...

    --
    01/01/01
  83. real problems left out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    List was a bit lacking? Any problem on the list to which "loss of habitat" belong. Chernobyl, might be an instructive and weak example of the problem. Any1 else feel something was missing on his list?

  84. Is this the same Bill Gates who by Deons+Dreaming · · Score: 1

    Is this the same Bill Gates who wants population control with health care and vaccines? Or do I understand what he said at T.E.D wrongly?

  85. Bill Gates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    gosgog:

    I'm not a Bill Gates fan as far as Microsoft days, I used it because I didn't know any better, until someone put me onto LINUX. However, he made a ton of money, because he's smart, & y'all griping about Morality, is to me a waste of time. CAPITALISM is what makes the world go round, but there's a hell of a lot of immorality involved, why? LAWYERS, lot of them elected to Gov't ...that's why! they have been twisting MORALITY to suit themselves (by that I mean getting RICH!) & the U.S., has done that better than anyone else....just look at our Gov't....full of Lawyers!!
    Getting back to Gates for a second, he's made a pot full, but he is at least spending tons of it to try and benefit the less fortunate world so I say "Bully for Him" and those other folks who have made a ton but do try and spend a bunch to help where it can benefit those less fortunate. So you ASSHOLES who are now bitching about him...."what rthe Fuck have you done to benefit mankind???"

  86. Healthcare by NewYork · · Score: 1
  87. RE: BILL GATES/STEVE JOBES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ALL SAID/ I among others in my camp, think bill gates should run for president and Hillary as vice pres. To bad Steve is not alive he and bill would have made a number 1 team ;~}

  88. I have no problem in establishing priorities by Optali · · Score: 1

    The first problem is POPULATION.
    period.

    It's just that nobody dares to even mention it.

    People talk about global warming, pollution, even to some extend about the swindling soil resources, but nobody has balls to tell the people that we are just too many using up too many resources and that the obvious solution is just to stop crapping out more humans as if we were a plague of afids. And this is valid for both, the poor countries and the rich ones where a single children uses up so many resources as a whole small village in Africa. And that just because children are considered a sort of consumer item such as HD TVs or mobile phones.

    And instead of attacking the problem we are wasting time, resources and efforts in empty symbol-politik such as vaccinating the newborn in Africa to rid them from smallpox so that they can die later from AIDS, starvation or killed in a war.

    Stupid humanity, stupid plague.

    --
    -- 29A the number of the Beast