Slashdot Mirror
Explorer Plans Hunt For Genghis Khan's Long-Lost Tomb
Velcroman1 writes "The tomb of brutal Mongolian emperor Genghis Khan — the one who created the world's most powerful empire by raiding and invading across Eurasia, not Kirk's nemesis — is a lost treasure archaeologists have sought for years. And one man thinks he knows where it is. Last fall Alan Nichols, the president of The Explorers Club, mapped out possible locations for the tomb of Khan (also known as Chinnggis Qa'an). His hypothesis: Khan's tomb is located in the Liupan Mountains in Northern China, where the emperor who was born in 1162 and is said to have perished from an arrow wound in August 1227. Next fall, Nichols plans the next phase of his research: pinpointing Khan's exact resting place. 'Ghengis Khan's tomb is my obsession,' Nichols, a noted authority on the emperor, said recently. 'I couldn't stop thinking about it. But I'm not happy just reading about it, or knowing about it. I need to have my feet on it.'"
*gestures*
Will it be possible to identify his tomb after all these years? How are we sure that even if we find such an ornately decorated tomb, that Khan is the one buried there, instead of some relative or whatnot. I don't know, but many cultures have superstitions about their corpse in the afterlife, so that might be a motivation to "hide" the real corpse?
Perhaps China has ideas of it own on this subject. I'd think they would want to do this search themselves.
Virtually all historians, whether Christian, atheist or of some other religion, hold that a man Jesus existed, even if his biography is just so much myth accreted around the historical figure.
>Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
Jesus is everywhere, tending gardens across the United States. Cash only.
Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
That's the difference.
Repeating a fallacy often does not make it true.
Very few reputable scholar who have no axe to grind dispute that there was a historical Jesus figure.
If I had a dime for every time I saw the same thing stated verbatim, I would be a very rich man.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
There is strong evidence that Jesus existed. He may not have been divine, but he was almost certainly a real person.
>Virtually all historians, whether Christian, atheist or of some other religion, hold that a man Jesus existed, even if his biography is just so much myth accreted around the historical figure.
All the honest ones are clear that there is no direct evidence and many of the myths clearly relate to different people at different times. There have been many people names Jesus. With high probability, there has never been magic Jesus, born of a virgin, 2000 years ago, who could perform miracles.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
until I took an arrow to the chest. (MongoliaRim)
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
The Wikipedia page talks plenty about how convinced scholars are (who have a vested interest in that answer) but doesn't actually cite any evidence. It doesn't pass the sniff test.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Founded in New York City in 1904, The Explorers Club promotes the scientific exploration of land, sea, air, and space by supporting research and education in the physical, natural and biological sciences. The Club’s members have been responsible for an illustrious series of famous firsts: First to the North Pole, first to the South Pole, first to the summit of Mount Everest, first to the deepest point in the ocean, first to the surface of the moon—all accomplished by our members.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
That guy is a rich retired lawyer, not an archeologist or historian. See his profile at
http://www.explorers.org/index.php/about/explorers_club_president
There are zero indications in the linked article that they plan to include any professionals on their expedition, and in his portrait there is no record that he has ever teamed up with such on previous endeavors. Looting or just damaging a tomb of this importance by amateurs, should it be found, would be an enormous cultural loss. A painstaking archeological dig would probably take 20 years and proceed with extreme caution. These guys do not look like they have the patience - to me they certainly look like they would prefer instant gratification and fame by brandishing a few choice artefacts from the tomb if they can find it.
Just because someone at Fox News put "Noted Authority" on the Chiron under a TV guest doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.
I actually did a fair bit of research myself into this a few months back, to answer a question on History.SE. There is indeed a romantic notion of there being some undiscovered tomb with untold wealth in it. Then there's the reality:
Depositing the corpse in the steppe was meant to sacrifice it to predatory animals. According to Mongolians this is the last virtous act a person can carry out. This idea is much older than Lamaism and exhibits a really strong shamanistic element of spiritual thought.
I don't think 'lover' is the best descriptor of the man's behavior in conquered lands. He's basically history's most "successful" rapist.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
The guy cited the wrong source. Here is a better one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_Historicity_of_Jesus
Basically what it boils down to is that there are multiple independent sources attesting to his existence.
See Q Source and the Gospel of Mark. Or the Gospel of Thomas. Those are the 2 big ones I can think of. I will grant you that they were oral traditions before being written traditions. I will grant you that there are differences and contradictions between the various sources. But the differences are consistent with the way that oral history spreads.
The Wikipedia page talks plenty about how convinced scholars are (who have a vested interest in that answer) but doesn't actually cite any evidence
You need to improve your reading comprehension skills. The passage cites a reference to Roman documents that mention the crucifixion of Jesus. What are you expecting? A giant Iridium plated monument that says "Jesus Was Here"? Jesus had a tremendous influence on future generations, but very, very little on his own generation. So there is little contemporaneous evidence, just like there is little direct evidence that 99.99% of any other specific first century individuals existed. But Christianity began to take off when there were still people alive that would have had a memory of him, and there were plenty of opponents of what, at the time, was an extremist cult. Yet none of them denied that he had lived.
There is strong, but not conclusive, evidence that he was a real person. There is no evidence that his existence was fabricated. Many of his disciples were tortured and crucified, yet they refused to denounce him. Why would they do that, for something that (in your opinion) they had made up?
Genghis Khan existed. Jesus not.
There is strong evidence that Jesus existed. He may not have been divine, but he was almost certainly a real person.
Imagine if Jesus had hooked Genghis up with his breakthrough water-walking technology. Khan could have taken over the entire world. 100% of the earth's population would be related to him, rather than 10% of Asia or whatever it is. You couldn't ask a girl out without then discovering she's some distant relative. Earth would become Planet Redneck.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
Actually it is the response of people to other people that has had a great effect.
At least I can claim to have done less damage. Yet.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
LOL, Genghis Khan has way more up his sleeve than you give him credit for. Show me a U.S. president that had about a thousand 1st-generation descendants. 800 years later - today - Genghis has about 15 million descendants. This is based on hard science genetic testing, not historic record, by the way. An average male person living 800 years ago has a bit above 500 descendants living today.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Joke all you want, but according to a Darwinian fitness perspective he was one of the most successful humans to have ever lived.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
You know, it's always hard to prove things, just by accounting other people stories. To really prove something you have to show evidences!
Now prove that Genghis Kahn existed!!! It's not easy, and remember that he is +1000 years more recent.
Lets do the opposite... prove that Hercules/ Héracles didn't exist.
when all you have are stories, it's very hard to prove anything. Yes, you can prove some events, but what come first, the event or the story/person?
by the way, do you really exist? are you sure!! prove it!! -> cogito ergo sum :D
Higuita
While the thrust of the military power of the British empire is truly not what it was, he is accurate in saying that "the sun never sets". :-)
Nobody really refers to it as an "empire" anymore, but in addition to Britain and Northern Ireland, the U.K. still controls territories including "Gibraltar, Bermuda, numerous Caribbean islands, Ascension, St. Helena, Tristan da Cunha, the Falkland Islands, and South Georgia." Some have argued that the sun finally set over the empire after the handover of Hong Kong in 1997. But some argue this view ignores two tiny but crucial territories which bridge the gab: the Pitcairn Islands in the South Pacific and the British Indian Ocean Territory -- also known as the Chagos Islands, where Britain and the United States maintain a joint military facility at Diego Garcia. The question is "on midwinter's day in the southern hemisphere, does the sun set over Pitcairn before it rises over Diego Garcia?"
Here's what Peter Hammond's calculations found:
---
[The] results allow for the refraction of the sun's rays when it is close to the horizon. They indicate that, on 21st June, the sun rises over Diego Garcia at 01:22 hrs GMT, more than half an hour before it sets over Pitcairn at 01:59 hrs GMT.
Thanks to Diego Garcia (uninhabited except temporarily by various U.K. and U.S. military personnel) and to Pitcairn (population now about 50), the British Empire appears safe from sunsets for the time being.
---
Is this why all those asians look the same?
Most of the initial consensus originally came from the christian historian. Following up historian never really changed that position no matter their belief. All of the "evidence" are actually from textual criticism. IOW "they can't have invented all that story!" : if you scratch down the paint, there is next to no other evidence than that. Even Bart Ehrman (at least until recentely) admitted that it was only "most likely" that Jesus existed.
The ultimate honesty, is to admit in this specigfic case, that we do not know, but most probably a human at the origin of all the myth existed. Anybody telling you there is a "consensus" of historian, really exagerate the case here. There are many historical figure older than jesus for which we have a LOT of physical and written evidence. For jesus ? Nothing practically beyond the bible. Even Josephus is recognized as dubious, most probably a fraud. And nobody else reported the existence of the guy. That said carrier and other "full" mythicist haven't shown anything reliable in the academic arena (and no a book do not count --- peer review do).
Draw you own conclusion. Me after reading a lot of the litterature I am split 60/50. 60% chance he existed, 40% chance it was either a composite (more than 1 persons) or an elaborate myth.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Let’s consider you point. What is your Epistemology in this situation?
Do you reject evolution? It’s got massive holes. There are bits that don’t (yet) make sense. Yet I still believe it because of the strong evidence. The holes take some extrapolation to move from point to point, but the logic to do so is consistent.
Or, let’s choose an example more on point. Should I disbelieve in Socrates? Like Jesus no primary source material exists. None of his writings exist. Should I take the position that he was just the figment of somebody’s imagination?
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Hitchhikers, and Oolon Colluphid Jr's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters: Where Jesus Went Wrong, Some More of Jesus's Greatest Mistakes, and Who Is This Jesus Person, Anyway? "I refuse to prove that I exist", says Jesus, "for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing." "But", says Man, "a complete historical record would be a dead giveaway wouldnt it? So an INCOMPLETE record proves you exist, and therefore you dont, QED."
How to remember the order of the planets:
[M]ary's
[V]irgin
[E]xcuse
[M]ade
[J]oseph
[S]uspect
[U]pstairs
[N]eighbour
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.