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Indonesian Politicians Plan To Quiz Snowden Following Visit By Russians

Posted by Unknown on from the good-luck-with-that dept.

cold fjord writes "Yahoo reports, 'Indonesian politicians plan to quiz former US National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden in Russia about revelations Australia tapped the phone of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. The move came as Indonesian protesters again laid siege to the Australian Embassy in Jakarta, burning images of Tony Abbott, throwing eggs and calling for a hard line against Australia. More than 1600 police were deployed to the Australian and US embassies and at several other potential targets in the capital after reports that hardline group the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) planned to hold the rallies ... Indonesian media reported MPs had 'permission' from Moscow to go to Russia to meet with Snowden ... The Jakarta Post said a delegation of Russian politicians was in Indonesia this week to discuss the Australian phone tapping revelations. Indonesia also launched an investigation into local telecommunications companies to see what role they may have played.'"

78 of 121 comments (clear)

  1. Wonder is well see by future+assassin · · Score: 1, Interesting

    the end of an Empire or a WW soon? Russia must be loving this as the US keep inching towards their own noose and their allies looking quite guitly.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    1. Re:Wonder is well see by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the end of an Empire or a WW soon? Russia must be loving this as the US keep inching towards their own noose and their allies looking quite guitly.

      Oh hardly. This is a tempest in a teapot. Every country spies, but they have the good sense not to get caught out on it. Now these NSA "revelations" have just become cannon fodder for anyone with an agenda. To suggest it'll lead to military action though is far-fetched to say the least. This is how international politics play out. It's nothing of any real import.

      Many people gain by seeing the US cock-blocked in certain economies. Cisco was on track to grow 12% this quarter and instead shrunk by 6% -- as a major telecommunications provider, Snowden and this NSA business have cost them billions. And those billions have gone to its competitors.

      All this talk isn't about the military, but about the economy. Anything that can be used to give other countries an edge against the largest country's economy is going to be leveraged to its fullest.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    2. Re:Wonder is well see by future+assassin · · Score: 3, Informative

      And once the rest of the word locks down those holes all the US will have is intelectual property which no one will give a flying fuck about. Thats why they're so desperate to get TPP finalized in secrecy. You'd be a fool to think a major "stay relevant" conflict in not going to happen on the next 10-20 years as the US becomes less important and its citizens want their American Pie culture back. By then they'll just be straight consumers with verry little to offer to the rest of the world.

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    3. Re:Wonder is well see by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re any real import?
      The telco codes are weak for any group/country to use as the NSA and friends did.
      The global competitors will have to do a better job than the existing US products and prove they are not equally compromized.
      US telco/networking brands will never be trusted again but US web 2.0 will be enjoyed.
      The quality of use of US brands is over. Its products are still fun just not useful to many nations anymore.
      Its not so much leveraged as people wanting their phone networks back, their banking back, their rights back, their domestic politics safe from expensive junk US tech.
      In the long run expect to see the US try and influence any new brands well outside direct US control- from to staff, NGO work, colour revolutions and coups - anything to stop viable non US/UK crypto from emerging and gaining too much traction.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:Wonder is well see by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "All this talk isn't about the military, but about the economy. Anything that can be used to give other countries an edge against the largest country's economy is going to be leveraged to its fullest".

      There some problems with "largest country's economy" (or "largest country's economy"). From Wikipedia:

      China is the world's second largest economy by nominal GDP and by purchasing power parity after the United States. It is the world's fastest-growing major economy, with growth rates averaging 10% over the past 30 years. China is also the largest exporter and second largest importer of goods in the world. China is the largest manufacturing economy in the world, outpacing its world rival in this category, the service-driven economy of the United States of America.

      The relevant part here is that the US economy may be larger but much of is becoming people scratching other peoples backs; think of hair dressers, restaurants, banking etc.

      CH: GDP by sector agriculture: 10.1%, industry: 45.3%, services: 44.6%% (2012 est.)
      US: GDP by sector agriculture: 1.2%, industry: 19%, services: 80% (2011 est.)

      Oh, there is ample of oomph left:

      The US has abundant natural resources, a well-developed infrastructure, and high productivity.[24] It has the world's sixth-highest per capita GDP (PPP).[2] The U.S. is the world's third-largest producer of oil and second-largest producer of natural gas. It is the second-largest trading nation in the world behind China.[25] It has been the world's largest national economy (not including colonial empires) since at least the 1890s.[26] As of 2010, the country remains the world's largest manufacturer, representing a fifth of the global manufacturing output.[27] Of the world's 500 largest companies, 132 are headquartered in the US, twice that of any other country.[28] The country is one of the world's largest and most influential financial markets. About 60% of the global currency reserves have been invested in the US dollar, while 24% have been invested in the euro. The New York Stock Exchange is the world's largest stock exchange by market capitalization.[29] Foreign investments made in the US total almost $2.4 trillion, which is more than twice that of any other country.[30] American investments in foreign countries total over $3.3 trillion, which is almost twice that of any other country.[31] Consumer spending comprises 71% of the US economy in 2013

      Note that consumers spending comprises 71% of the US economy in 2013 and put that in relation to

      US Exports: $1.56 trillion (2012)
      US Imports: $2.3 trillion (2012)

      Ouch.

      This is a tempest in a teapot? Oh hardly.

      .

      .

      Sources
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_US

    5. Re:Wonder is well see by dbIII · · Score: 1

      In the case of Cisco their prices are inflated more than their competition since they could sell at that value due to their reputation. When they do that instead of major quality or technical excellence differences at this point of time, just relying on perceptions of their being a gap in the past, it's no wonder they take a hit when their reputation drops and they don't drop prices to keep sales.

    6. Re:Wonder is well see by onyxruby · · Score: 2

      It's a tempest in a teapot because /every/ nation spies on every other nation to the greatest extent that their technology, budget and legal system allows. It has been this way since pre-biblical times (hell even the old Testament in the Bible records nations spying on nations amongst other ancient stories). I don't know if you noticed or not but while a lot of people became upset, and certainly a number of companies became upset about the Snowden revelations almost no governments became upset.

      Think about it, why did almost no government become upset? Why did almost no government condemn the spying unless it was a small government that simply lacked the resources to do any level of spying at all? Use Occam's razor and give me an answer, any answer that doesn't come down to this:

      Every nation spies on every other nation to the greatest extent that their technology, budget and legal system allows.

      There are no innocent parties, and to be frank if there were they would be incompetent and in need of replacement for endangering their citizens. Unfortunately history has a habit of supplying example upon example of this occurring through less than peaceful means. You might recall a time and a quote "gentlemen do not read each others mail". It was spoken by a Mr Henry L. Stimson, Secretary of State in 1929 right before Japan started their half of WW2 and used to justify cutting off funding of US Cryptographic efforts for breaking other countries communications. Similar examples from other nations that were caught and surprised with an invasion abound through history.

      Tempest in a teapot? This tempest in a teapot has been brewing for thousands of years, only the names have changed. Those nations that have taken this teapot off the stove have paid the price time and again...

    7. Re:Wonder is well see by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      I have to speak up here on the agriculture thing. I own about 500 acres of row crops raising wheat, soybeans, and rice primarily. Every now and then there is 20 acres of corn on one field. At any rate I monitor global agriculture trends pretty closes. For instance the growing seasons in S. America are the single biggest factor these days on what the price of Soybeans will be come harvest time in the US.

      I'm not sure where this 1.2% GDP comes from exactly. Because right now food and food stuffs are one of our largest exports. Now I do believe that we don't have nearly as many people involved in that sector because we are highly mechanized. The framer who rents my 500 acres farms 4500 acres with himself, his father, an uncle, and two hired hands. I imagine the Chinese use quite a bit more labor and as a result has a larger percentage of GDP involved in that sector than we do. Now we are approaching a crisis in farming because the average age of a farmer, at least a couple years ago, was something like 58 years old. Young people have not replaced the aging workforce.

      However take a look at this: http://www.pecad.fas.usda.gov/ogamaps/Default.aspx?cmdty=Corn&attribute=Production

      When it comes to global trade, it's an extremely powerful weapon, especially against China. One of China's main imports is food other than rice. Even in the world, while we don't have the dominance we once did, if the US withheld it's grains from the global markets just watch as the prices jump and parts of the world literally erupt into flames.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    8. Re:Wonder is well see by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      There some problems with "largest country's economy" (or "largest country's economy"). From Wikipedia:

      ... And then there was a very long collection of wikipedia quotes, confirming that, indeed, America is still numero uno. One. Top dog. Best in class. Aced it. Nailed it. America - Fuck Yeah.

      This is a tempest in a teapot? Oh hardly.

      As far as the OP claiming this would result in military action, yes. We're not only the biggest economy on the planet, we also have the biggest military. Nobody's gonna fuck with us over some punk kid making public what every country on the planet already knew in private: We all spy on each other.

      This is a tempest in a teapot. Sorry.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    9. Re:Wonder is well see by JakartaDean · · Score: 1

      All this talk isn't about the military, but about the economy. Anything that can be used to give other countries an edge against the largest country's economy is going to be leveraged to its fullest.

      I live in Indonesia.

      In this case it's not about the economy, it's about politics. Indonesia will have parliamentary elections in May 2014 and politicians of all stripes are looking for ways to distinguish them from their competitors. Since none have any platforms to speak of, and all are disgustingly corrupt, they use chest-thumping nationalism as one way to garner attention and hopefully votes. This has just given them a great opportunity and all are trying to out chest-thump the other parties. Mostly harmless.

      --
      The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
  2. Douches by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    All these aggrieved politicians who wouldn't have anything to talk about were it not for Snowden, but not a single one of them is talking about offering him asylum.

    Indonesia's got its problems (seems to be on the 2-steps forward, 1-step back path to social modernity) but it is hard to think of a better place to live your life in exile than Bali. Beats the hell out of those russian winters.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    1. Re:Douches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Indonesians apparently can't stop the Australians from spying on their politicians and wouldn't have known about it even without the Snowden disclosures. I'd expect the CIA two weeks tops to either capture or double-tap strike Snowden if he were to start living in Bali, and if it takes them any longer than that someone's getting a fail on their annual employee review.

    2. Re:Douches by AHuxley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Indonesia knew exactly what Australia signals intelligence could do during Timor ~1999.
      Regional radio traffic was well understood by Australia. Indonesia knew of Australia having both NSA help and its own internal radio tracking efforts with teams of skilled linguists.
      The Snowden news added nothing new to the mil history aspect.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Douches by erikkemperman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Indonesia knew exactly what Australia signals intelligence could do during Timor ~1999.

      I'd guess they might have known way earlier. After all the near-genocidal Indonesian invasion (1975) and prolonged occupation (1975-1999) of East Timor enjoyed the sustained support of Australia and the US... Despite massive torture, extrajudicial executions and deliberate starvation.

      It wasn't until some Western journalists (the tireless Amy Goodman among others) managed to get video footage of the 1991 Dili massacre out of the area that those accomplices had to answer questions by their electorate about why such a brutal and sustained onslaught on human rights was being supported and partially facilitated by their governments.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    4. Re:Douches by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The difference here is a Powerpoint presentation on how to hack the President of Indonesia's phone ending up in the hands of a US contractor. That's pretty insulting.
      It's like the difference between knowing someone can urinate and watching them urinate on your countries flag.

      Or maybe not, but I like that analogy.

    5. Re:Douches by Pav · · Score: 1

      I've heard it cynically said that this happened because it allows western oil companies wanted better deals on offshore oil fields - there was certainly a public outcry when the Howard government wanted to practically shove East Timor off the fields very soon after they became a nation. The boundaries are disputed, and I'd imagine negotiating with East Timor as a separate entity is much easier than with Indonesia.

    6. Re:Douches by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      The Snowden news added nothing new to the mil history aspect.

      On the other hand we now see Russia deploying political action teams to stir the pot and exploit the ensuing political chaos to their favor. A textbook example of political warfare 101 by Russia courtesy of its Soviet roots, almost as if they planned it.

      I'm a little surprised you didn't pick up on that given your nose for conspiracy.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    7. Re:Douches by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      LOL Cold, the US helped Indonesia clear out most of its "Russian" influence back in during the Cold War.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia
      China in the region is doing what China always did - longterm investment, aid, trade and gov friendship.
      Russia is learning to follow China in the region with - longterm investment, aid, trade and gov friendship.
      Snowden adds nothing new to what Indonesia or any other country knows of the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD was Defence Signals Directorate DSD) or NSA capabilities in the region.
      The Timor issue showed Indonesia Australia had total mastery of all Indonesia military communications systems without needing US help.
      Indonesia knows what Australia can do on its own and what the NSA gifts to Australia re Indonesia signals and telecommunications.
      Like Germany the only question for Indonesia is why did top Indonesia crypto staff let Indonesia political leaders use the junk phones....
      Cold the release of papers of the 1984-89 Labour Prime Minister (David Lange) showed all in Asia just what the NSA and NZ Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) where doing. A highly classified annual report made it to the press and showed what NZ could do France, Japan, the Philippines and parts of the South Pacific - total telco access for NZ up into Asia.
      This is nothing new for Asia, nothing new for Indonesia wrt to the NSA, Australia or NZ, nothing new for Australia.
      Australia knew it could do what it wanted in Asia but also knew not to upset the one country in the region it worked very hard to be on good terms with.
      i.e. no political chaos just Russia, China with stuff to sell and the US trying to keep Indonesia as a client state. Australia trying to keep the US happy and still be part of a growing Asia.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  3. Blame it on Snowden by Art+Challenor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't condone the violence, but it's interesting that you'll get headlines blaming the violence on Snowden and his release of the documents - not on the real source of the problem which was the covert activities of the US, and it seems now also the Australians.

    1. Re:Blame it on Snowden by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, the two are actually separate. The protests only happened after the revelation which wouldn't have happened if the secrets were actually secret.

      Its like telling a kid he was adopted. As long as he doesn't know and is a part of a loving family, he is happy or as happy as he was until he found out that his parents aren't really his parents. So it might not be the secret but the revelation of the secret that is the problem that causes the protests.

      That is not to say the problem wasn't real until then, it is to say the problem wasn't as big of a problem until then.

    2. Re:Blame it on Snowden by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes the UK and US sell weak encryption, give the keys to Australia and Australia goes and 'plays' spy in the region.
      The problem for Australia is they where very nice to Indonesia in public pre Timor, over oil, gas, during and after Timor, with unique security agreements, generations of military training and lots of aid.
      Now the usual sock puppets try and spin 'blame' Snowden on the release :)
      Australia could have been more diplomatic over the issue but selected the classic Dutch, cold war CIA/Moscow 'talking to' Indonesia approach.
      Decades of hard diplomatic work by Australian govs is now been lost over wanting spy gossip. Russia and China will be back in the region offering their tech help, trade deals, friendship and regional expertise.
      Indonesian experts have learned not to trust crypto offered and will work harder to protect their networks.
      Australia is left looking a bit lost. The UK and US trusted Australia with the keys to crypto, Indonesia was on good trade terms.
      The main problem for Australia is they only had one good trick - the NSA magic and deep reach for all regional signals. Now the region knows and Australia is back to been seen as a colonial outpost, a listening station for the UK and USA.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Blame it on Snowden by sd4f · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      The problem is, not that long ago, the Indonesians didn't consider Australia, a 'colonial outpost, a listening station for the UK and USA' but rather 'South Irian'.

    4. Re:Blame it on Snowden by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      I don't condone the violence, but it's interesting that you'll get headlines blaming the violence on Snowden and his release of the documents - not on the real source of the problem which was the covert activities of the US, and it seems now also the Australians.

      It isn't even that. The problem is the asymmetric nature of the release. Indonesia is riddled with spies, at least some of whom are there to spy on the many terrorists and terrorist supporting groups in Indonesia. Unfortunately only the activities of a couple of nations have been revealed, and the others haven't. That allows people to pretend that the problem is the US or Australia, that other nations aren't involved, and that there is no reason for intelligence gathering in Indonesia. The article documents that Russia has a political delegation there, and you are kidding yourself if you think they don't have spies there conducting intelligence operations. The US, UK, Australia, Germany, Sweden, Finland, France, Canada, and many other countries are full of Russian spies, not to mention Chinese and other nations.

      I also note that you apparently have nothing to say about Russia stirring the pot on this with their political delegation. It didn't occur to you that they are at the least exploiting this to their advantage? Or that they may have even had a hand in it?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    5. Re:Blame it on Snowden by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      It is more like the neighbors discovering the kid was being abused by his parents. As long as they didn't know it was happening, it was a happy neighborhood.

      Not at all. The information wasn't being used to hurt anyone which is why child abuse is such a silly comparison.

      Only if you rather have ongoing child abuse instead of truth.

      No one got hurt, if you must compare it to child abuse, it would be the angry father in his wife beater T-shirt yelling at the kid because he thought he might be doing something wrong and the neighbors crying abuse when they hear him yelling and start assaulting him.

      I swear, don't over dramatize this as no one got hurt and no property was destroyed until after the reveal and the protests started. You sound just like those idiots who burned down a pediatrics office/house/whatever the hell happened- mistaking the title for a pedophile.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4719364.stm

    6. Re:Blame it on Snowden by Art+Challenor · · Score: 1

      I also note that you apparently have nothing to say about Russia stirring the pot on this with their political delegation.

      Not a thing. If you cheat on your spouse and your buddy posts it on Facebook, they may be an asshole, but you still cheated on your spouse.

      And just because everyone else is doing it and not being discovered (asymmetry) doesn't mean that you should.

      For they US you really have to stretch the analogy. They didn't just cheat on their spouse, they went to everyone of their friends houses and cheated on someone there also.

    7. Re:Blame it on Snowden by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Australia could have been more diplomatic over the issue ...
      Decades of hard diplomatic work by Australian govs is now been lost ....

      A., you may recall that Indonesia's former head of their national intelligence has admitted to tapping the phones of Australian politicians in the recent past. This is the pot calling the kettle black, and politicians overreacting, .... at least in public.

      You also mention "weak encryption," I believe that is the one thing that hasn't been shown and that Snowden directly said still was OK when properly used.

      It is also worth pointing out that Snowden admits his actions. Those are actions that will have many consequences in many areas, not all of them foreseen, and many of then undesirable. This is likely to be just the beginning.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    8. Re:Blame it on Snowden by cold+fjord · · Score: 2

      Indonesia hardly has grounds to complain since the former head of its national intelligence agency has admitted to tapping the phones of Australian politicians in the past, and that Indonesia taps the phones of many nations.

      Besides that, relationships between nations aren't similar to marriages, and Russia's actions aren't the equivalent of just posting on Facebook. And where do you get the idea that nations either don't or "shouldn't" spy on each other? In a perfect world, maybe, but then the world would need to be crime free before you could get there. Is your state crime free?

      Let me see if I can give you something closer to the actual context. An unmarried couple (X & Y) of swingers live in an apartment building full of swingers that has an orgy at least once per week. The rule is that you have to choose anyone other than the one that came with you. At this one particular weekly orgy, Mr. Y decided to break the rule during a blindfold game and took Ms. X, his live-in girlfriend, who couldn't see it was him. Mr. Z, who has always fancied Ms. X, took a photo of that rule breaking in progress and posted it on the internet anonymously. Ms. X is upset that the photo is on the internet, unhappy with Mr. Y for breaking the rule, and Mr. Z is using the unhappiness to try to break them up so that Ms. Y will move in with him.

      Although that is imprecise, and with further thought might be improved upon, it is closer to the actual situation than your marriage example. I leave it up to you to figure out who Australia, Indonesia, and Russia are in this.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    9. Re:Blame it on Snowden by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You know when you are trying to say the fish was this big and you are an expert fisherman second to none but it was only that big and floating next to the shore already dead- that is you.

    10. Re:Blame it on Snowden by Art+Challenor · · Score: 1

      I answered that already. Your basic premise is that everyone is doing it. That still doesn't make the action morally acceptable. If it were, there would be no reason to keep it secret. We could just have a list of who's phone is being tapped on the NSA website.

      That they don't have it there tells you that they have something to hide, that they are doing something that the population would find unacceptable. And yes, there are legitmate reasons to gather intelligence secretly, but these should have clear oversight (not the kangaroo court that currently overseas it) and should be publicly available after the reason for secrecy is past (not 50 years). This is different from the secret, mass surveillance without a legitmate cause that Snowden revealed.

      Oh, and in your example it seems everyone is wrong, with which I don't argue.

    11. Re:Blame it on Snowden by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Cold the NSA and GCHQ put that junk encryption in place, sold it to the world. Australia, contractors, ex staff are all using the 'keys' for their own ends.
      All Snowden did was tell the world so more skilled people can fix the junk sold to them by US brands.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    12. Re:Blame it on Snowden by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Your previous answer and this one are largely nonsense. Nations aren't people, and the ethics that guide us individually aren't necessarily appropriate guidance for the use of the power of a state. Do you personally imprison people? Or tax them? Why not, the state does it? Could it be that you don't have the power to do that, and it isn't appropriate for you to do so? The same thing goes with spying on foreign powers. The state has to do things that you don't.

      You hide intelligence operations so they succeed, and the other side doesn't know what you know, and what you don't. That way they don't know your weakness.

      Your ideas on this are both faulty and contrary to the long experience of American and other intelligence agencies. I'm sure your ideas have a source, but whatever it is doesn't seem to be a reliable guide to good intelligence practices.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  4. Failing to see by andy1307 · · Score: 1

    Failing to see how Australia spying on Indonesia protects my 4th amendment rights.

    1. Re:Failing to see by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The more people around the world study crypto, the more malware that is found in the telco systems the better.
      Think of it as a global clean up of useless encryption and codes, expensive telco systems and junk gov set international standards.
      Everything the Australians use is for sale on the global market to any wealthy corporation, individual, faith, cult, criminal group, contractor or other random govs.
      Ex staff and former staff who used this tech are selling it globally - so better to get it fixed globally.
      Over time: better codes, better OS, more legal reform, press coverage and political insight will help with "your" 4th amendment rights too.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:Failing to see by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      well, do "men" count as everyone or just non-felon citizens of usa. soon enough "men" will be just military personnel an politicians.

      anyways, if you have that attitude, that it's right to piss on privacy rights of members of other nations to gain competitive advantage in trade politics, then I guess you might see why so many people are pissed off at USA pissing on their international contracts because domestically they have made it legal to piss on them and to help nations they choose to piss on them.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    3. Re:Failing to see by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      You're a class act, AC.

    4. Re:Failing to see by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Your post is full of "piss," and "vinegar," but could use more insight.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  5. Uh huh by EdIII · · Score: 2

    Indonesia also launched an investigation into local telecommunications companies to see what role they may have played

    Wake me when telco officials physically spend some time in prison like they should be doing in the US. That would be rather impressive and satisfying.

    In the US there is zero accountability at this point so the only justice I can enjoy is vicariously through other countries not yet as far gone.

  6. Re:Quiz? by philip.paradis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Given Snowden's background, it doesn't seem he has issues with divulging information. As part of fleeing to Russia, I'm certain he understood that he would have many conversations with many interesting people. I hardly think any sort of "working over" will be necessary in this case.

    --
    Write failed: Broken pipe
  7. Re:Quiz? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

    You are probably right.

    Except that the shear bulk of the information might make it so he is not entirely familiar with everything released. If he only glanced at the documents before collecting them or collected them because they were with other documents he found interesting, it could be a situation where he literally doesn't know much outside of a reporter he gave the information to divulging it to the world.

    But that is just a guess on my part. Perhaps he has already mentioned that he knows more which is why the meeting is taking place at all. If this is the case, I guess you would be right.

  8. Maybe it'll end up like patents. by istartedi · · Score: 1

    blaming the violence on Snowden and his release of the documents - not on the real source of the problem which was the covert activities of the US, and it seems now also the Australians.

    Maybe this will end up like software patents. All the countries on the planet will agree to cross-license their hatred. We could avoid a lot of conflicts that way.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  9. P-box by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Snowden will officially change his name to Pandoreno.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
    1. Re:P-box by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Yes. The pity is that most people mistake Pandora's box for a music box and are dancing around it in ecstasy. Little do they suspect that the box has barely started to reveal its contents even if no more revelations from Snowden's stolen cache are published.

      I wonder what the offspring of Pandora and the Pied Piper would look like?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  10. Re:Quiz? by BlueStrat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Given Snowden's background, it doesn't seem he has issues with divulging information. As part of fleeing to Russia, I'm certain he understood that he would have many conversations with many interesting people. I hardly think any sort of "working over" will be necessary in this case.

    You are probably right.

    Except that the shear bulk of the information might make it so he is not entirely familiar with everything released. If he only glanced at the documents before collecting them or collected them because they were with other documents he found interesting, it could be a situation where he literally doesn't know much outside of a reporter he gave the information to divulging it to the world.

    But that is just a guess on my part. Perhaps he has already mentioned that he knows more which is why the meeting is taking place at all. If this is the case, I guess you would be right.

    More than likely the case. He's probably more familiar with things he was actually involved with, but it's doubtful he's had time to educate himself on the details of every program and initiative for which he released data.

    However.

    Even if Snowden has no intimate details for Indonesian officials, they would likely, even knowing it was pointless intelligence-wise, make a big production as they've done out of "interviewing" Snowden simply for international and domestic-Indonesian propaganda and political PR purposes.

    This whole dog-and-pony show gives Australia, and by extension the US government, a serious, and *deserved*, black eye internationally.

    The US government has grown so powerful that it has become a threat to both the domestic and international population. They've got their "guns" pointed at everyone...citizens, foreigners, allies, enemies, journalists, and whistle-blowers all over the world.

    So, why is shrinking the federal government and taking away some of the powers it has given itself a bad idea, again?

    This isn't about political Party or ideology, simply basic human nature and the way groups of humans interact and behave. If you've got a large enough government apparatus to operate an entitlement society the size of the US, it's going to become corrupt and abuse that power, and it's not like corrupt power-abusers would care about abusing foreigners any more than citizens.

    Once the apparatus of government grows large enough, no amount of oversight or checks-and-balances will be able to contain it's growth in scope, power, and level of corruption. There are now secret courts FFS! There's simply too much wealth being spent and too many people in too many agencies, bureaus, departments, offices, etc etc etc, to watch. At this point, any instrument of oversight will be "captured" and become a further enabler and provide "cover". Witness the "Deep Horizon" BP oil spill incident.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  11. Best for them to take drastic sanctions against by Tasha26 · · Score: 1

    Spying on the Indonesian President (by Australians) or German Chancellor (by NSA and GCHQ) raises serious questions:
    - Under terrorism and national security threat you can ask yourself:
    - Are they on a terrorist watchlist?
    - Implying that they are linked to terrorist organisations?
    - Implying that they are behind terror activities and murders?
    -If not under terrorism surveillance, then this raises even more sinister and darker questions:
    - To get insider knowledge so those involved in this spying can benefit financially on the stockmarket?
    - Collect information for blackmail? This way the US can pass laws in Europe knowing it will have full support of Germany?
    - To steal their credit card and banking details?

    The UK, US and Australian governments have really no excuse for what they did.

    1. Re:Best for them to take drastic sanctions against by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      None of the above. The German Chancellor and the Brazillian president were simply on General Alexander's private Hot Chick Voyeur list. The Indonesian president must have been on the Australian prime minister's Toy Boy list I suppose.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    2. Re:Best for them to take drastic sanctions against by sd4f · · Score: 1

      You mean ex-prime minister Kevin Rudd's toy boy list. Abbott has only been PM since September. This is a problem he inherited.

  12. Re:Quiz? by dryeo · · Score: 1

    So, why is shrinking the federal government and taking away some of the powers it has given itself a bad idea, again?

    In theory it is a great idea. In practice there is the question of who will fill the power vacuum, there are a lot of nut cases with power in the United States of America and given a sudden power vacuum who knows who might step forward to fill it.

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  13. Re:Quiz? by philip.paradis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Snowden no longer can be given credit for anything; He released everything he stole months ago.

    A finite, but as of now undetermined, amount of data was conveyed to journalists. I am keenly interested in seeing objective proof that the sum of those disclosures is equal to the sum of all information in his possession. If you're planning on using Snowden's public statements in support of your view that everything he has is already in someone else's hands, I suggest you consult the dictionary for the definition of "naive."

    I served in the United States Navy as a submariner, and I've been rather intimately involved with communications networks since around the age of eleven. You might be surprised to learn that I applaud Snowden's revelations regarding pervasive NSA surveillance of American citizens at home, abroad, and in interaction with allied nations. I doubt you have the depth of experience or context to fully appreciate why I applaud it, though, given your choice of the word "stole" to describe the materials in question. I prefer the term "returned," or perhaps "disclosed," as in "disclosed to the American people what their government had been doing in violation of their own Constitution," a document I swore an oath to uphold and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Again, I doubt you truly understand what that means.

    --
    Write failed: Broken pipe
  14. Re:Quiz? by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    You must be from Switzerland.

  15. Re: Quiz? by erikkemperman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You are so stupid. Snowden has plenty of stuff left.

    Name calling isn't very helpful. But yes, it would surprise me if he doesn't have anything tucked away for a rainy day. He is in the kind if situation where some "insurance" might come in handy.

    --
    Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
  16. Re:Quiz? by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

    So, why is shrinking the federal government and taking away some of the powers it has given itself a bad idea, again?

    In theory it is a great idea. In practice there is the question of who will fill the power vacuum, there are a lot of nut cases with power in the United States of America and given a sudden power vacuum who knows who might step forward to fill it.

    No need for any "power vacuum".

    The powers we find essential can still be there, just distributed to individuals, cities, counties, and States instead of centralized at the Federal level There are also entire federal departments that could be eliminated entirely.

    There is only one way a government gains power. That's by taking that power from the people it governs. The more power the government has, the less free the people are. When you give government more power in whatever form, you surrender freedom.

    How much less-free would you like to be?

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  17. Re:Quiz? by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

    Considering he had no way of knowing if he'd make it to his destination when he got on the plane out of Hong Kong -- and in fact he didn't since he wasn't planning on his destination being Russia -- it makes no sense for him to have kept any more info under wraps. As a matter of personal safety (why hold on to something that gives the USA reason to assassinate you and Russia reason to torture it out of you?) as well as a matter of ensuring that info would be able to get out, he needed to transfer all info to others before leaving Hong Kong.

    --
    This space intentionally left blank
  18. Re:Quiz? by philip.paradis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and in fact he didn't since he wasn't planning on his destination being Russia

    Prove it. It's likely he had a number of eventual destinations in mind, unless he's a complete idiot, which he doesn't appear to be.

    why hold on to something that gives the USA reason to assassinate you and Russia reason to torture it out of you

    This demonstrates extremely thin understanding of the conditions under which it would be useful to torture someone, and of the actual information that could be gained as a result.

    as well as a matter of ensuring that info would be able to get out

    There are many ways of ensuring information gets out in the event of your demise. Reference "dead man's switch." Cheers.

    --
    Write failed: Broken pipe
  19. Re:Previous Governments by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Spot on, but the current leader is showing he can't even deflect the blame off him to where it belongs. Personally I think Turnbull or someone else should stand up and take the reins from someone that has been demanding to be Prime Minister for three years but is still not ready. Get rid of this loser and we may still get the NBN instead of rotting copper.

  20. Re:Quiz? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    > The powers we find essential can still be there, just distributed to individuals, cities, counties, and States instead of centralized at the Federal level

    And then the Blue Fairy will fly down and turn Pinocchio into a *real* boy.

    Large organizations, especially large bureaucracies, form for real real reasons. Even when forcibly fragmented, they often rejoin over time to rebuild themselves. Look very carefully at what happened with AT&T over the last 20 years for a good example, and at the way utility companies form what are effectively monopolies with a pretense of separate corporations, but with interlocking directorships that shape national and international practices.

    Also, for the excellence of local government, look at the legacy of Chicago under Mayor Daley, and more recently of Massachusetts under the Bulger Brothers. Whitey ran the gangs in South Boston: Billy was head of the state legislature. They had the local police under control through bribery and corruption, the FBI bamboozled with the promise of taking down the "big fish" when Whitey actually was the biggest fish in the state, and all of the unions eating out of Billy's hands for privileges for their members and perks for their leadership. You couldn't *wee* in the Boston area without the implicit permission of that family.

  21. Re:Quiz? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    That is what off-site dropboxes are for. A timed release if coded, public transmissions are not received regularly would seem a basic precaution, and one that I'm sure Wikileaks could have helped him set up.

  22. Russian Promise? by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

    I thought the Russians promised that Snowden could stay there as long as he discontinued his revelations.

    --
    Greed is the root of all evil.
  23. Re:Quiz? by flyneye · · Score: 1

    I hope Snowden remembers the warnings of the prophets Cheap Trick, of some Indonesian junk going 'round. Seems a soldier had his unit fall off from it or some such.
    It really doesn't sound like Snowden has anything to hide, in fact , if I'm not mistaken, that's the premise of his recent World Tour. So I can see his questioning going something like;
    Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

    [JARRING CHORD]

    [The cardinals burst in]

    Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
    [To Cardinal Biggles] I can't say it - you'll have to say it.
    Biggles: What?
    Ximinez: You'll have to say the bit about 'Our chief weapons are ...'
    Biggles: [rather horrified]: I couldn't do that...

    [Ximinez bundles the cardinals outside again]

    Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

    [JARRING CHORD]

    [The cardinals enter]

    Biggles: Er.... Nobody...um....
    Ximinez: Expects...
    Biggles: Expects... Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...
    Ximinez: Inquisition.
    Biggles: I know, I know! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. In fact, those who do expect -
    Ximinez: Our chief weapons are...
    Biggles: Our chief weapons are...um...er...
    Ximinez: Surprise...
    Biggles: Surprise and --
    Ximinez: Okay, stop. Stop. Stop there - stop there. Stop. Phew! Ah! ... our chief weapons are surprise...blah blah blah. Cardinal, read the charges.
    Fang: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against the Holy Church. 'My old man said follow the--'
    Biggles: That's enough.
    [To Cleveland] Now, how do you plead?
    Clevelnd: We're innocent.
    Ximinez: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

    [DIABOLICAL LAUGHTER]

    Biggles: We'll soon change your mind about that!

    [DIABOLICAL ACTING]

    Ximinez: Fear, surprise, and a most ruthless-- [controls himself with a supreme effort] Ooooh! Now, Cardinal -- the rack!

    [Biggles produces a plastic-coated dish-drying rack. Ximinez looks at it and clenches his teeth in an effort not to lose control. He hums heavily to cover his anger]

    Ximinez: You....Right! Tie her down.

    [Fang and Biggles make a pathetic attempt to tie her on to the drying rack]

    Ximinez:Right! How do you plead?
    Clevelnd: Innocent.
    Ximinez: Ha! Right! Cardinal, give the rack [oh dear] give the rack a turn.

    [Biggles stands their awkwardly and shrugs his shoulders]

    Biggles: I....
    Ximinez: [gritting his teeth] I *know*, I know you can't. I didn't want to say anything. I just wanted to try and ignore your crass mistake.
    Biggles: I...
    Ximinez: It makes it all seem so stupid.
    Biggles: Shall I...?
    Ximinez: No, just pretend for God's sake. Ha! Ha! Ha!

    [Biggles turns an imaginary handle on the side of the dish-rack]

    [Cut to them torturing a dear old lady, Marjorie Wilde]

    Ximinez: Now, old woman -- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- *four* counts. Do you confess?
    Wilde: I don't understand what I'm accused of.
    Ximinez: Ha! Then we'll make you understand! Biggles! Fetch...THE CUSHIONS!

    [JARRING CHORD]

    [Biggles holds out two ordinary modern household cushions]

    Biggles: Here they are, lord.
    Ximinez: Now, old lady -- you have one last chance. Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of the ungodly -- *two* last chances. And you shall be free -- *three* last chances. You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.
    Wilde: I don't know what you're talking about.
    Ximinez: Right! If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions!

    [Biggles carries out this rather pathetic torture]

    Ximinez: Confess! Confess! Confess!
    Biggles:

    --
    *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  24. Re:Snowden by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    Yes, I do think that it is a good thing, since I am not an American. I really don't like having my bank transactions, phone calls and email tapped by Pimple Faced Youth Voyeurs in America, especially since the whole effort is totally useless and hasn't prevented a single damn thing.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  25. Re:Quiz? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

    Corporate Tyrannical Anarchy - just as US has today, without the thin veneer of feigned public interest.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  26. Re:Snowden by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

    Some messages, not unlike bombs in a storage bunker, are best left where they are. When they are moved to the general public they can become hazardous to all. A number of Snowden's leaks have been widely and badly misinterpreted because the journalists didn't understand the context and actual content of what they were seeing and misreported what it was. As is the case in many instances of bad reporting it is difficult to get the record corrected. The result has problems and widespread anger that didn't need to exist. There may yet be a war that follows from this, or significant consequences in a war or terrorist act that was going to happen anyway. Snowden didn't innocently deliver a message as the saying depicts, but assembled a Pandora's Box for delivery. You may yet come to rue its opening.

    --
    much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  27. Re:Snowden by doesnothingwell · · Score: 1

    Our enemies

    The powerful, rich, amoral, yes they are, and their currently in charge. Oh! you think because they hold up a banner with your beliefs on it they're "good." Nobody should have these powers without oversight. Maybe we should torture some more people, after all only the righteous should have rights!

    --
    They can have my command prompt when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
  28. Re:Snowden by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

    Our enemies are laughing their asses off, and using the damage Snowden caused to defeat us and roll back our influence all over the world, at every turn.

    Our enemies? Our allies are furious at us.
    There's been widespread public outrage amongst our closest allies.

    Then, when it turned out we were spying on the UN and various heads of state,
    the governments (which had been mostly quiet) became furious with us as well.

    That said, I'd be interested in hearing more about which enemies are using Snowden's information against the USA and how they're doing so.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  29. Re:Quiz? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    and in fact he didn't since he wasn't planning on his destination being Russia

    Prove it. It's likely he had a number of eventual destinations in mind, unless he's a complete idiot, which he doesn't appear to be.

    You can't ask the GP to prove the negative, but unless Snowden is controlled opposition, which I very much doubt, then the coincidence of his passport being revoked by the State Department as he happened to be in the Moscow airport, is just that, a coincidence.

    That's not to say that he did not realize that his passport could have been revoked at any time and that he wasn't thinking about contingency plans. But if his destination were Moscow, then he would have already left the airport when his passport was revoked.

    Also: how blindly statist of all the other countries to hold so steadfastly to the passport protocol in this case.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  30. Re:Snowden by tipo159 · · Score: 1

    And you libertoons think this is a good thing?

    Name-calling doesn't help promote your argument.

    Snowden's revelations may indeed have the results that you are concerned about. That means that the US should have been more circumspect when deciding to take the actions in the first place.

    I continue to be disgusted by people who keep apologising for this vile individual.

    I guess you don't need to feel disgusted by me then. I don't apologize for Snowden. He did the right thing and no apology is needed.

  31. Re:Quiz? by nukenerd · · Score: 1

    Given Snowden's background, it doesn't seem he has issues with divulging information.

    That is not the view interrogation experts take. Even if you tell them everything, they can't be sure that there isn't more, so they will waterboard you anyway.

    I wonder if Snowden thought all this through before he acted as he did. I suspect he is wondering by now if he bit off more than he can chew.

  32. Re:Quiz? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

    If you rob a bank and get 10 million dollars then brag about it in a bar and I steal it from you, I still stole it regardless of your legal right to have it. This is just the same as if you were a crack dealer and I stole your crack, I still stole it.

    So while you are imagining pornographic images of titillating tubers, stole is the proper word to be used no matter if the government had legal ownership or not. The bottom line was that the information was not his to disclose.

  33. Re:Quiz? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    What you`re missing thing is that it is easier to exploit smaller, fragmented governments by denying them economic support via jobs, etc.

    Want our new factories to be built in your state or heck even keep the existing ones? Lower the minimum wage to 5 cents an hour and decrease environmental protection regulations or else we will take our business to another state that will.

  34. Re:Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I for one would welcome some permanent wikileak type website dedicated to finding and exposing the personal lives -- in fine detail -- of every pseudo-patriot that works for the NSA (and any similar foreign agencies) and any politician that advocates it's continued existence. IMO organizations like the NSA are so extremely out of control, they should be completely eliminated and much smaller organizations with some civilian oversight take their place.

    The irony of the situation is for the talk of "protecting" everyone from terrorism, such wholesale spying seems to be creating more enemies than it's stopping. To make matters worse, its hurting tech companies as it fully gels with more and more people (including Americans) that they will have to completely migrate off American software, computer and telecom equipment makers if they wish to keep Uncle Peeping Sam from knowing which porn sites they fap. (Cisco has already taken a big hit. Microsoft, Yahoo, Google and others to follow). The only thing that has prevented a wholesale migration already is the fact not only the NSA is doing this sort of thing. However, who is and isn't backdooring their equipment is going to become less obfuscated with time --- and those who aren't doing it and are going to have brisk business.

    It is one thing to collect publicly available information. Or spying with some sort of reasonable suspicion of a crime or in self-defense in conflict. Quite another to go through ones private communication of friends and foes alike without their permission. Spying like that is an act of aggression. It's a moral blight. (also see Stasi, Gestapo, and others that argued that sort of thing for "national security") Snowden will spend his life as a martyr (to hide the shame of those he exposed) but history will not be kind to those that persecuted him for exposing their shenanigans.

    - for the NSA archives

  35. disinformation alert by FallenTabris · · Score: 1

    Any time there is outrage in another country about NSA spying, goons here come out of the woodwork to say "those politicians are all talk!".. as if the politicians were the ones upset. No, it's the people of those countries who were wronged, and they are angry. Who cares about the fuxking politicians? That's a distraction.

    1. Re:disinformation alert by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      No, it's the people of those countries who were wronged, and they are angry. Who cares about the fuxking politicians? That's a distraction.

      OK, just for you:

      All these aggrieved citizens who wouldn't have anything to talk about were it not for Snowden, but not a single one of them is talking about offering him asylum.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:disinformation alert by FallenTabris · · Score: 1

      Why would citizens be talking about granting political figures asylum when citizens don't have the power to grant asylum? Governments do, and many South American governments HAVE expressed the will to give him asylum.
      http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/13/s-american-leaders-back-asylum-amid-snowden-row/

      You also talk about other countries' concerns in a manner, frankly, that makes you sound like an unlikeable prick.

      How about when Britain and France cowtowed to the US in denying Bolivia's president a place to land, and then justified it with worries that Snowden was on board?

      You're terribly careless at this, get the fuck out of here.

    3. Re:disinformation alert by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Why would citizens be talking about granting political figures asylum when citizens don't have the power to grant asylum?

      Lol. You were the one bitchin about me ignoring the citizens. The questions you ask me would be better directed at yourself. You certainly are terribly careless. Probably a little mental illness there too.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:disinformation alert by FallenTabris · · Score: 1

      This is very simple, and it's unfortunate that you're getting confused. You're wrong in implying that this solely a matter of politicians "acting" outraged, and you're wrong in implying that they wouldn't have anything to justifiably be mad about.. This is a matter of the public being justifiably outraged. What anyone can do about it is a concern of your own construction.

    5. Re:disinformation alert by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      You're wrong in implying that this solely a matter of politicians "acting" outraged,

      This is very simple, and it's unfortunate that you're getting confused. You're wrong in assuming I'm implying that this is solely a matter of politicians.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  36. what the nsa has done IS akin to child abuse by FallenTabris · · Score: 1

    The trust of the public has been abused. Your "daddy knows best" undertones are bullshit, and everyone can tell. If it were moral, it wouldn't need to be private. If it were logical, these snowden threads wouldn't have to be full of paid shills like cold fjord and jeremiah cornelius.

    1. Re:what the nsa has done IS akin to child abuse by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I really do not get your fascination with other posters but no one ever said daddy knows best. I said no one was hurt until they knew about the actions and it was mostly the reactions that caused harm. Not that they were justified or moral or anything. Comparing it to child abuse is silly.

    2. Re:what the nsa has done IS akin to child abuse by FallenTabris · · Score: 1

      "no one ever said daddy knows best"

      Here is how you described the government in this scenario: the angry father yelling at the kid because he thought..

      Even in this tenuous link, you portray the government in its spying as a potentially just actor. They're your words, so don't blame me-blame yourself, or god.