DHS Turns To Unpaid Interns For Nation's Cyber Security

Stick with what works... by pubwvj · 2013-12-20 06:15 · Score: 4, Funny

Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.

Re:Stick with what works... by cayenne8 · 2013-12-20 06:22 · Score: 4, Informative

Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.
If youi're taking a snipe at contractors vs govt personnel here on this one, there really isn't much a difference in the loyalty or trustworthiness of the two.
If you're working on something security related, you have to sign the same forms saying you're liable to the same laws and penalties if you divulge secrets, etc.
It isn't like the govt. worker is held to any standards higher than the contractor is, if working on the same system/data.
And a secret clearance background check isn't any more thorough for a govt employee than it is for a contractor, they pretty much use the same exact methods and entities for them.

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:28 · Score: 0

Commenting to agree (gave mod points)

The only difference between a contractor and an employee on a TS level is the type of work you are hired to do and who signs your paycheck. Whether it be DoD, Northrop, Booze, etc
Re:Stick with what works... by the_B0fh · 2013-12-20 06:29 · Score: 1

Most people just don't get this. Strange, isn't it?
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:36 · Score: 0

Yes, yes, because the us government bases all its employees in Hong Kong. No difference at all.
Re:Stick with what works... by phoenix03 · 2013-12-20 06:36 · Score: 3

Why in the hell would you have a limited time internship that requires a secret level clearance that will probably take the UNPAID intern months to get?

Seems like a ton of hassle for very little reward.
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:40 · Score: 0

This will save TAX PAYERS...
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:41 · Score: 0

But, like the old saying goes, you can teach anyone skills, but you cannot teach everyone values.
Someone who works as a government employee is likely to have a different mindset to someone in the private sector. The latter, by definition, must be ultimately driven by rational selfishness / profit / whatever you want to call it. The former is likely to be in public service for the long haul, and must have a reason other than maximising their bank balance.
Re:Stick with what works... by kwbauer · 2013-12-20 06:49 · Score: 1

Two words: bull and shit.
Show me a single congressman (house or senate) that left "public service" poorer than they started.
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:49 · Score: 1

what is it the Bankers, Ceo's and political critters like to say about their wages?
Pay peanuts and get monkeys , you have to pay if you want he best talent and all that?
Re:Stick with what works... by TheCarp · 2013-12-20 07:01 · Score: 1

Someone once said to that while people complain about the salaries of politicians, some of the states with the most blatant corruption are the ones that don't pay their politicians much....so they have to be wealthy or in some pockets; nobody else can take the job.
So what little reward? Clearly they are not looking tor people with much conscience. Conscience is a luxury of those who can afford it.

--
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:01 · Score: 1

My dad used to say "you get what you pay for" as he handed me my $1 allowance.
Re:Stick with what works... by demachina · 2013-12-20 07:01 · Score: 2, Informative

Civil servants are frequently working for the chance to retire after 30 years, with a life time pension, and the ability to start a new career in the private sector, often exploiting their government connections, and working for the contractors they once managed. This is often refered to as double dipping. If you do military, civil service and then private sector its triple dipping. There salaries may not be great but their life time payout is actually really good. Life time pensions are increasingly rare in the private sectors because they are staggeringly expensive with people increasingly living to be a 100.
If you actually compare private sector versus civil service salaries, civil service salaries are starting to outpace the private sector in many fields. This is partially a product of private sector salaries being stagnant in many fields for decades.
Certainly Wall Street banker and hedge fund manager out performs civil service. In the case of SEC civil servents they are usually there to do favors for the big banks and brokers they are supposed to be regulating and then they cash in the favors for high paying job with the people they used to regulate. There is a similar revolving door in just about every Federal agency. And yes it is also known as corruption.

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@de_machina
Re:Stick with what works... by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:17 · Score: 1, Interesting

Two words: bull and shit.
Show me a single congressman (house or senate) that left "public service" poorer than they started.
Harry Truman. When he ended his 2nd term, all he had was his old WW1 Army pension to fall back on.

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Stick with what works... by NatasRevol · 2013-12-20 07:21 · Score: 2

They're not government employees. Their checks come from larger corporations.

--
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:37 · Score: 0

Right. Because if you aren't getting paid, you pay no taxes.
Re:Stick with what works... by Obfuscant · 2013-12-20 07:47 · Score: 4, Informative
Show me a single congressman (house or senate) that left "public service" poorer than they started.
Harry Truman. When he ended his 2nd term, all he had was his old WW1 Army pension to fall back on.
This contains an interesting summary of Truman's salary history.
- In 1921 Truman's salary was probably close to nothing. He was living in debt and trying to keep his failing business open.
- In 1922 he was elected Missouri's Jackson County judge and was paid $3,465.00 per year.
- In 1925 Truman lost reelection and took a job selling AAA automobile club memberships for $15.00 each...
- In 1926 he was elected as the presiding judge and was paid $6,000.00 per year.
- In 1934 Truman was elected senator and made $10,000.00 a year.
- In 1944 he was chosen to be the Roosevelt's third vice-president. His salary jumped to $20,000.00 per year.
- In 1945 ... Truman became the President of the United States. His salary was $75,000.00 and then increased $100,000.00 a year
- In 1954 he sold the rights to his biography for $600,000.00 which would be paid over 5 years, and in 1958 Congress passed a law to retroactively provide former presidents a pension of $25,000.00 a year.
So, he went into public service making about zero, starting with a judicial position at $3465 a year. He left the Presidency and started a military pension at $13500 a year. He then picked up another $25k a year retroactively starting in 1954.
I'd say going from zero to $38k a year is not leaving public service poorer than he started. It's not the lavish pensions pols get today, but it's still not poorer.
As for political donations for personal use, the same source reports:

He continued paying down the debt, even while the Great Depression was occurring, until 1934 when a political supporter bought his debt allowed him to pay it off for $1,000.00.

So, a political supporter donated a huge sum by buying the existing debt on the new Senator's failed clothing store and letting him pay it off cheap.
Re:Stick with what works... by iamgnat · 2013-12-20 08:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.
If youi're taking a snipe at contractors vs govt personnel here on this one, there really isn't much a difference in the loyalty or trustworthiness of the two.
If you're working on something security related, you have to sign the same forms saying you're liable to the same laws and penalties if you divulge secrets, etc.
It isn't like the govt. worker is held to any standards higher than the contractor is, if working on the same system/data.
And a secret clearance background check isn't any more thorough for a govt employee than it is for a contractor, they pretty much use the same exact methods and entities for them.
All true, but at least we'd be paying the Fed employee less to screw us over. I did a stint as a DoD contractor and was paid a little more than twice what a Fed doing the same work (in the same group) was getting paid. And I was getting about a quarter of what was going to my contracting company for the position. Hell, given that math I'd be more worried about disgruntled Feds than contractors
Re:Stick with what works... by gtall · 2013-12-20 08:27 · Score: 1

The GP is talking about civil service, not congressmen/women. And most of the former do have a different mindset that the private sector...especially the ones that must deal with the public. People treat help-desk workers like shit, they treat civil servants even worse. It seems they pin to civil servant all the grievances they've spent their lives inventing.
Re:Stick with what works... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:47 · Score: 1

Most people get government jobs because they're easy, it's nearly impossible to get fired, and they can slack off for 35 of their 40 hours per week. Getting a government job is a long drawn out process so it's not something you just fall in to most of the time. Most government jobs attract people who want to be lazy. They don't have to worry about being laid off, don't have to worry about getting fired, and don't have to do any real work. Most government workers have government jobs because they'd never be able to hold a job in the private sector.
Re:Stick with what works... by volxdragon · 2013-12-20 09:08 · Score: 5, Informative

Federal civil service workes haven't had a pension in decades - CSRS was closed to new government workers in 1987, all they get now is FERS which really is no different than any other 401(k). The days of the government pension are pretty much dead (unless you're a congress critter that is).
Re:Stick with what works... by PRMan · 2013-12-20 10:51 · Score: 1

We need the return of the "what-could-possibly-go-wrong" tag.

--
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Re:Stick with what works... by pubwvj · 2013-12-20 14:18 · Score: 1

No, you completely and totally missunderstood that. Makes me wonder why you're so defensive.
Re:Stick with what works... by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 21:45 · Score: 1

Truman left office in Jan 1953. He declined to participate in the '52 elections. Hell, he had a rough enough time winning the '48 election, his own party tried to ratfuck him.

Congress passed the presidential pension law halfways thru Eisenhower's 2nd term. Truman didn't have shit to do with it, he was done with politics. He was 68 years old in an era where life expectancy was 65.2 years for a man. In 1952 he was earning 100k a year as president. In 1953 he was getting 13K a year from his Army pension.

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Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Stick with what works... by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 21:51 · Score: 1

Excuse me. Just read that his Army pension was 95.66/month, or 1100ish a year. That was January 1953.

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.

FP by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:16 · Score: 0

First time!!!

Re:FP by cayenne8 · 2013-12-20 06:18 · Score: 1

Didn't they just recently pass laws/regulations pretty much banning unpaid internship for most private businesses???

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:FP by flonker · 2013-12-20 06:23 · Score: 2
The U.S. Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division allows an employer not to pay a trainee if all of the following are true:
- The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academic educational instruction;
- The training is for the benefit of the trainees;
- The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation;
- The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;
- The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and
- The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship#United_States
Re:FP by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:47 · Score: 0

>> The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees
It's that point that got most companies in trouble. Unpaid interns -cannot- do any meaningful or productive work for the company.
The moment they do, they need to be paid for it.
It's very hard for a company to prove that the intern they aren't paying isn't beneficial to the company.
Re:FP by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:18 · Score: 0

Well, this is DHS that we're talking about. Is anything they do meaningful or productive? They could have nothing but unpaid interns and probably stay within the letter of the law!
Re:FP by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:25 · Score: 2
The U.S. Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division allows an employer not to pay a trainee if all of the following are true:
- The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academic educational instruction;
- The training is for the benefit of the trainees;
- The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation;
- The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;
- The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and
- The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship#United_States
The 'trainees' WILL replace 'regular employees' and the employer DOES receive an immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees. That was the whole point of this, wasn't it? NOT to train up the next gen of cyberwarriors, but to put them in place to DO SHIT.

The big tech companies write their job descriptions these days to where they 'can't' find Americans trained 'well enough' to fill them, thus, they NEED H1Bs to fill the slots that they 'can't find any American to fill'. H1Bs work cheaper, and besides, you have a stranglehold on them because they're not citizens. The only thing cheaper than an H1B for an employer is an UNPAID INTERN. We should be surprised that the government would take this advice from the big tech corps?
--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:FP by krept · 2013-12-20 07:49 · Score: 1

The training is for the benefit of the trainees;
Well that's pretty universal isn't it?

--
None of us know everything. Therefore we're all naïve.
Re:FP by parkinglot777 · 2013-12-20 08:51 · Score: 2

Interesting enough, the content quoted from wikipedia is a little bit different from the actual document -- www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf Don't know why they have to change certain words in the content...

There's a disconnect here by phoenix03 · 2013-12-20 06:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

"...100+ of the nations' best-and-brightest college students.."
"..to work for nothing"

Boy. Can't imagine how they could say no to that.

Re:There's a disconnect here by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:21 · Score: 0, Interesting

If it gives people the opportunity to abuse power in order to get back at people they dislike, with no oversight or accountability whatsoever, I can imagine it would attract quite a few bright people. Only problem is, it would also end up filtering for sociopaths. Intelligent, driven sociopaths, at that.
Re:There's a disconnect here by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:31 · Score: 1

On the other hand, there are a lot of bored and disillusioned college grads who know the job market sucks and will gladly infiltrate "The Man" and his methods, and leak them a la Snowden. A good number of them probably remember how good life was during the Clinton years, before the police-state clenched its filthy claw all over the airports and roads.
Bootlickers need not apply.
Re:There's a disconnect here by ganjadude · 2013-12-20 06:41 · Score: 2

well hey, it will put people back to work right? I mean who cares if they arent getting paid as long as people are working!

--
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Re:There's a disconnect here by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:50 · Score: 0

"No, we dont pay you, but you can access prism from your workstation..."
(captcha: illusion :-S)
Re:There's a disconnect here by Anubis+IV · 2013-12-20 06:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Exactly. What they're demonstrating here is the difference between saying "We're serious about fixing the problem" and "We're serious about fixing the problem and have allocated resources to demonstrate that". Promises of changes like these are worthless unless they're backed up with a budget, personnel, or infrastructure.
Re:There's a disconnect here by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:03 · Score: 0

... there are a lot of bored and disillusioned college grads who know the job market sucks and will gladly infiltrate "The Man" and his methods, and leak them a la Snowden ...
Right, because these college grads are looking for an opportunity for prison, exile and/or lifelong unemployability in their native country (and many others too).
Re:There's a disconnect here by TWiTfan · 2013-12-20 07:13 · Score: 2

But they get a "meaningful and rewarding career," that is, if you define "meaningful" to mean "unpaid" and "rewarding" to mean "dead-end."

--
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Re:There's a disconnect here by NatasRevol · 2013-12-20 07:23 · Score: 1

Assuming they have to be US citizens seems unwise.

--
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Re:There's a disconnect here by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:28 · Score: 0

ROFL
Re:There's a disconnect here by jellomizer · 2013-12-20 07:41 · Score: 1

However if they can get elevated security access. That could be helpful for them in future jobs. As there are a lot of jobs that require security access, however they don't want to pay to put the candidate in the process.

--
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:There's a disconnect here by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:51 · Score: 0

Yes, especially when Google and Microsoft pay them the equivalent of $75,000 a year for an internship!
Re:There's a disconnect here by Chris+Mattern · 2013-12-20 09:42 · Score: 1

Assuming they have to be US citizens seems unwise.
On the contrary. If you had bothered to follow the links, you would have learned that US citizenship is indeed required to apply for these internships. Nor is this surprising, as US citizenship is required for a security clearance.
Re:There's a disconnect here by cbhacking · 2013-12-20 10:26 · Score: 1

There may be some levels of clearance which require citizenship, but they certainly don't *all* require it. I've known people with Secret who had only just gotten their Green Card and were years from when they would be eligible for citizenship.

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There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Re:There's a disconnect here by Chris+Mattern · 2013-12-20 11:33 · Score: 1

There may be some levels of clearance which require citizenship, but they certainly don't *all* require it.
Yes, they do. From the State Department's official FAQ on security clearances: "As outlined in Executive Order 12968, Access to Classified Information, eligibility for access to classified information may only be granted to employees who are United States citizens. "

I've known people with Secret who had only just gotten their Green Card and were years from when they would be eligible for citizenship.
No, you haven't. No non-citizen has a Secret clearance. However, it is possible for a non-citizen to get access to Secret materials. Again, from the State Dept. FAQ: "However, an exception is allowed in specific situations wherein there are compelling reasons for limited access to be granted to an immigrant alien or foreign national employee who possess a special expertise that is needed for specific programs, projects, contracts, licenses, certificates, or grants." Thie access is granted not with a clearance but with a Limited Access
Authorization (LAA). These are not a clearance and are rare. They wouldn't be handing them out to interns.
Re:There's a disconnect here by philip.paradis · 2013-12-20 23:11 · Score: 1

Following what Chris Mattern said in his reply to your post, please reference documents such as SECNAV M-5510.30. Chris is indeed correct in his assertion that non-citizens cannot obtain a security clearance, and must instead be scoped under LAAs, which are severely restrictive in nature compared to standard clearance levels. In particular, the effective access level for LAA personnel cannot ever exceed the Secret equivalence, and there are numerous additional restrictions concerning barring of physical custody or guardianship of classified materials (among other stipulations).
I happen to know this because I served in the Navy. I did serve with some guys who were foreign nationals (including one Russian submariner), but none of those folks could have clearances.

--
Write failed: Broken pipe

Well worth it! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:17 · Score: 5, Funny

$0 is a great price for being shunned by your peers for the rest of your life.

Re:Well worth it! by VortexCortex · 2013-12-20 06:46 · Score: 0

And further evidence that DHS is a communist invention.
Re:Well worth it! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:00 · Score: 0, Informative

This reminds me more of Fascist Germany and Hitler's Youth program.
Nor is it the first time.
Re:Well worth it! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:33 · Score: 1

$0 is a great price for being shunned by your peers for the rest of your life.
Maybe your peers will shun them. Their peers will hold them in awe.
Re:Well worth it! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:46 · Score: 0

National Socialist ... just another form of collectivism.
Re:Well worth it! by marcello_dl · 2013-12-20 07:47 · Score: 1

Well, I recall rumors about the involvement of ex eastern Germany spymaster Markus Wolf with the DHS. OTOH since all secret agencies are de facto above the law, I suspect they are resilient to ideologies as well. Those who are powerful enough to define "national interest" rule their nation services, that's all.

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---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Re:Well worth it! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 09:05 · Score: 0

Yes, and when they are required to sign security clearance paperwork, they lose their freedom to talk about what they do, and incur a liability that if they do, they will end up in jail, or if they are lucky, in Russia on a temporary visa.
Re:Well worth it! by rubycodez · 2013-12-20 14:55 · Score: 1

despite what Hitler said to excite the masses, the real system was in fact corporate fascism, same as we have here in the USA
Re:Well worth it! by tqk · 2013-12-20 15:12 · Score: 1

National Socialist ... just another form of collectivism.
Collectivism and fascism have a lot in common. Spain, Italy, Germany, and the Soviet Union proved that in WWII.

--
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.

Evil Plot by jythie · 2013-12-20 06:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

Sometimes I wonder if unpaid internships are just part of a sinister plot to keep the class divide as large as possible. In college I knew lots of really bright people who had to skip internships because they had to do things like work so they could pay for school and, well, eat.

I know that they are not intended that way, but it is one of the side issues with the 'internship' culture, they tend to be a step based off how much cash you have that can have major effects on your long term career options.

Re:Evil Plot by realmolo · 2013-12-20 06:30 · Score: 5, Interesting

That's exactly what this is.
The position requires a security clearance, for God's sake! This is an internship for the children of congressman and other highly-placed public officials (and, of course, children of big donors to the Republican and/or Democratic parties). Nothing will get accomplished, but a lot of rich kids will get to put it on their resume.
Re:Evil Plot by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:32 · Score: 0

Absolutely. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. If you have enough money that you don't need to work, you get access to opportunities that let you make even more money that you don't need.
Re:Evil Plot by whoever57 · 2013-12-20 07:08 · Score: 2

Sometimes I wonder if unpaid internships are just part of a sinister plot to keep the class divide as large as possible. In college I knew lots of really bright people who had to skip internships because they had to do things like work so they could pay for school and, well, eat.
I don't know if there is such a plot, but it is definitely an effect of the increasing income disparity. I rather doubt a plot, because historical evidence suggests that an increasing divide in wealth distribution results in less wealth for all (including the wealthy) over time.

--
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Re:Evil Plot by nbauman · 2013-12-20 07:14 · Score: 1

In addition to that, kids have to use their family connections to get the unpaid internship. A law firm, advertising agency or something will hire a kid because his father is one of their clients.
It used to be that kids would use their family connections to get a paid internship.
There are even agencies that will place kids in an unpaid internship for a fee in the thousands of dollars.
Re:Evil Plot by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:29 · Score: 2

Sometimes I wonder if unpaid internships are just part of a sinister plot to keep the class divide as large as possible. In college I knew lots of really bright people who had to skip internships because they had to do things like work so they could pay for school and, well, eat.
I don't know if there is such a plot, but it is definitely an effect of the increasing income disparity. I rather doubt a plot, because historical evidence suggests that an increasing divide in wealth distribution results in less wealth for all (including the wealthy) over time.
A quick glance at history suggests a shorter lifespan for those at the top of the wealth distribution curve. Shorter by a head, that is...

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Evil Plot by femtobyte · 2013-12-20 07:50 · Score: 1

The wealthy might have learned a bit from history --- each time around in the cycle, they're able to hold a bigger advantage; centuries of work to perfect propaganda techniques and control the masses, allowing ever greater levels of accumulated power and wealth. Meanwhile, the common people are convinced to forget their struggles every generation --- and accept a re-written history in which all progress was benevolently and peacefully handed down from our Capitalist overlords.
Re:Evil Plot by Victor_0x53h · 2013-12-20 08:28 · Score: 1

I think you're onto something, but paid interns are the ones who actually get jobs. Turns out those students convinced to work for free don't fair much better than students that get no internship. What's ironic is that unpaid interns are actually paying [tuition] to get college credits while working a job without compensation. Crazy. Here's the first source I could find.

Not necessarily a plot, just another trick in the bag.
Re:Evil Plot by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:35 · Score: 0

I did an internship in the US that paid better than my actual job in Europe.
I also don't see why anyone would accept an unpaid internship position. At least not in my field (computer engineering).
If I'm not getting paid I might as well just stay home and do whatever the fuck I want.
Re:Evil Plot by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:47 · Score: 0

Republican and/or Democratic parties
There is no need to use separate names for the single party that now controls the USA.
Re:Evil Plot by HiThere · 2013-12-20 09:46 · Score: 1

I doubt that it's a plot, largely because I tend not to believe in plots rather than because it's intrinsicly unlikely. However:
While increasing the income disparity has the long term effect of decreasing the wealth of those at the top, that's only in the long term. In the short term it's to their monetary benefit.
Also, an increased disparity in wealth translates into in increased disparity in social status, and that advantage doesn't evaporate in the long term. (Well, not until the revolution.)
Because of these two factors, it's to the advantage of every individual wealthy AND powerful person to increase the disparity. It's only a long term disadvantage, so it's to his immediate advantage, and even in the long term, it advantageous WRT status. (And because of this, you don't need a plot. It's the natural way for the system to evolve. Plots are only needed to drive it in an unnatural way, such as towards greater social equality. Even there they usually fail drastically, and sometimes bloodily.)

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Evil Plot by matfud · 2013-12-22 09:27 · Score: 1

:)

What happened to minimum wage? by BoRegardless · 2013-12-20 06:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

Thought that was exploitive and slave like to use unpaid interns.

Re:What happened to minimum wage? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:29 · Score: 0

Hey, we got to compete with China somehow. Can't have them using more unpaid interns than the U.S. now can we?
*sarcasm*
Re:What happened to minimum wage? by hawguy · 2013-12-20 07:51 · Score: 2

Thought that was exploitive and slave like to use unpaid interns.
States have caught on to this (though probably not fully altruistically since they lose out on taxes from these unpaid workers), but it's nice to see that the federal government doesn't mind exploiting workers for no pay. Why should they pay when the workers will do it for free - besides, this work benefits everyone. Seems like a good move for government - don't pay workers, but give them all of the essentials that they need to live. They could even use a catchy slogan "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=all
Re:What happened to minimum wage? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 12:00 · Score: 0

Thought that was exploitive and slave like to use unpaid interns.
Only if you work for the Indian embassy.

Hmmm by JeremyR · 2013-12-20 06:18 · Score: 1

From each according to his ability...

Re:Hmmm by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · 2013-12-20 07:14 · Score: 1

Marxist.
Re:Hmmm by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:31 · Score: 2

From each according to his ability...
Marxist.
New Testament, actually.

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:09 · Score: 0

I was taking a course in the bible as history and revolutions at the same time in college. I read the book of Acts and the communist manifesto and the same time, I was amazed at the similarities.
Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 19:53 · Score: 0

One of the commandments in Leviticus is to, at harvest time, take what you need and leave the rest for the poor to glean.
Re:Hmmm by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · 2013-12-21 17:46 · Score: 1

Um, no, actually.

Problem Solved by DoktorMidnight · 2013-12-20 06:22 · Score: 1

Well that's that problem solved. Everybody, that's lunch! Smoke if you got 'em.

Security clearances??? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

I would have thought anyone working in this area would need security clearance - which can take quite a while to get. How is that effort going to make sense (or be done in time) for spring/summer 2014 temporary work?

Re:Security clearances??? by Infiniti2000 · 2013-12-20 06:32 · Score: 1

They can start with an interim security clearance. The interim security clearance only doesn't hold up when the applicant perjures himself. At which point, of course, he winds up in Federal PMITA Prison.
Re:Security clearances??? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:47 · Score: 0

At which point, of course, he winds up in Federal PMITA Prison.
Bullshit.
Re:Security clearances??? by Infiniti2000 · 2013-12-20 06:55 · Score: 1

Okay, AC, if you say so. But, here's the process, so go investigate to your heart's content.
Re:Security clearances??? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:00 · Score: 1

You can get a Confidential pretty quick. Just give 'em your fingerprints, swear you're not a communist and it's pretty much good-to-go. At least that's what it was like in the 80s. I was put in for Secret, and that did take a few months. In fact, yep, the internship ended before I got Secret which was OK because I could come back next year and use it. Unfortunately I had some personal problems and had to drop out of school. Back then I was proud to be dealing with all that. Today? NFW. Oh, and the internships were *paid*. It wasn't generous mind you--just min wage or a bit above. I earned about $3000 that Summer.

Merry Christmas from the US government! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:24 · Score: 1

I know that spending my time applying to do a bunch of menial work for the government for free is exactly what I was hoping to get to do this Christmas!

Also relevants... by phoenix03 · 2013-12-20 06:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

This position requires a Security Clearance of SECRET. SO, let me get this straight. Unpaid, FULL TIME, college age, best and brightest... with access to secret level items...

Nevermind. This is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?

Re:Also relevants... by matfud · 2013-12-22 09:37 · Score: 1

Yep you have to ask why.

Simple reason they are unpaid by SuperKendall · 2013-12-20 06:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

It ensures only the ideologically pure will come to work for them.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Simple reason they are unpaid by VortexCortex · 2013-12-20 06:48 · Score: 1

Doesn't work for the tech sector, or any other for that matter. Hey, genius, see that carrot dangling out there called "future job"? Yeah, it's made of money. The internship means that only the folks who aren't poor enough to need money will work for them.

Hi! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:28 · Score: 0

The unpaid internship program, DHS notes, is the realization of recommendations (PDF) from the Homeland Security Advisory Council's Task Force on CyberSkills, which included execs from Facebook, Lockheed Martin, and Sony, and was advised by representatives from Cisco, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Northrop Grummaan, the NSF, and the NSA.

Hi! I'm a very rich big shot and I don't want to spend the money and time finding great security talent. And it woud be great if my security talent knew top secret decoding/cypher/secret code knowledge that I can profit from - FREE R&D baby!

Fucking corporatist!

You know folks, before blaming me for voting for Obama (I did), keep in mind Romney would be just as corporatist.

That is NOT an excuse, but a complaint.

We the people need to hold these asshole's feet to the fire.

Are they promising changes or just telling us what we want to hear?

The latter obvikously, but let's really hold these asshole's to their worthless word -fuck you Obama! You fooled me!

Democrats and Republicans are ALL corporatists!!

If someone has a 'D' or 'R' by their name - they are liars, cheats and worthless politician scum.

Reminds Me Of... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:28 · Score: 5, Funny

...during the Clinton years, but before the Monica Lewinski scandal where government would place ads in newspapers and certain periodicals asking for interns. The ads mentioned something along the lines of "gain experience under the nation's leaders". After the Monica scandal, this bit of wording was changed.

Re:Reminds Me Of... by phoenix03 · 2013-12-20 06:31 · Score: 1

May be an AC, but I got a big laugh outa this. I'm a sucker for word play.
Re:Reminds Me Of... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 14:46 · Score: 0

And if you put that on your application, you might have got an internship!

The REAL job by Akratist · 2013-12-20 06:29 · Score: 4, Funny

"hey...wait...this looks like the Obamacare website..."

C-c-c-combo breaker! by gmuslera · 2013-12-20 06:29 · Score: 2

Not only you help spy on your family and friends, help to demolish remaining US freedoms, but also you get not paid for that! How you can refuse that great deal?

Slavery by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:30 · Score: 0

Didn't America have a civil war over slavery?

Re:Slavery by BlueStrat · 2013-12-20 07:02 · Score: 1

Didn't America have a civil war over slavery?
Yes, twice.
Once in 2008 and again in 2012.
The slavers won both times.
Strat

--
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Re:Slavery by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:35 · Score: 1

Didn't America have a civil war over slavery?
Yes, twice.
Once in 2008 and again in 2012.
The slavers won both times.
Strat
That's debatable. Just remember, under the Old Regime, man oppressed man. Under the New Regime, they reversed that...

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Slavery by BlueStrat · 2013-12-20 09:06 · Score: 1

Just remember, under the Old Regime, man oppressed man. Under the New Regime, they reversed that...
Agreed, in that both mainstream US political parties are nearly identical when it comes to screwing over US citizens. It's only the precise manner of implementation and rates at which individual liberty is lost that are up for debate.
Time for a convention of States. http://conventionofstates.com/
Strat

--
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Re:Slavery by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 21:30 · Score: 1

Just remember, under the Old Regime, man oppressed man. Under the New Regime, they reversed that...
Agreed, in that both mainstream US political parties are nearly identical when it comes to screwing over US citizens. It's only the precise manner of implementation and rates at which individual liberty is lost that are up for debate.
Time for a convention of States. http://conventionofstates.com/
Strat
Interesting. A Tea Party site because the Republican Party just isn't conservative or reactionary enough, advertising BlazeTV because FauxSnuz isn't conservative enough either. They're advocating a 'constitutional convention' to rewrite the Constitution to their liking, doing away with things like taxes, the EPA, the FDA, all the social safety nets, and so forth. Sounds like some 'almost a good idea', except they didn't bother to think through the repercussions OR tell you what some of those repercussions will be. No EPA means we go back to the smoggy skies I knew as a kid in the 50's. No FDA means they can legally sell contaminated meat, mix e. coli and rats into your ground round and you can't do shit about it. No taxes means a miniscule and powerless government, which means ZERO protection from predatory corporations. Dave Koch, one-time Libertarian candidate for Veep, is a serious backer of this. His platform included the usual Teap bullshit - repeal income tax, destroy the IRS, the EPA, the FTC, in general, if there was a government agency that had standing to keep his companies honest and nonpredatory, he was against it, all for the 'public good' of course. Dave Koch and his brother inherited the John Birch Society from their daddy along with a few hundred million bucks, and morphed the JBS into the Tea Party. All a matter of public record, which, if they get their way, is gonna go byebye.

I saw an interesting thing about the 'abuse of executive orders legislating from the Oval Office'. Nice propaganda piece. Executive orders are how the President runs the Executive branch of the Feds. They have no standing outside the Executive branch, i.e., El Presidente can't write an executive order dismissing Congress or the Supremes and declare himself El Presidente For Life, or putting laws on the books because he thinks they need to be there for whatever reason. They just don't work that way. It's more of a thing of 'Congress has legislated Policy X, and the Supreme Court has upheld that decision, and it is now a matter of law. This is how we will implement Policy X to bring the government into compliance.'

Kennedy was able to dissolve the CIA by executive order because the CIA was part of the Executive branch, and the tasks it performed were to be taken up by the Department of Defense, also part of the Executive ('Commander in Chief', remember), as was the FBI, a part of the Department of Justice, which falls under the Executive branch. Congress could pass any legislation they wanted to to try to prevent it, but would have triggered a constitutional crisis that the Supremes would have had to sort out. Fortunately, for the CIA, at least, Kennedy got assassinated, and one of LBJ's first steps was to write executive orders saying 'Never mind!! Just kidding!! Go back to what you were doing when you pissed Kennedy off!!'

It's the same principle that the Supremes couldn't step in to rewrite the rules Congress operates under. Not their department, they have no say and no standing. The Supremes can write any decision they want to regarding the operation of Congress, and Congress can, quite rightly, tell them to go piss up a rope. This is called 'balance of powers', and is the way it's written in the Constitution to keep one branch of the government from going batshit crazy and fucking things up for the rest of government.

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Slavery by BlueStrat · 2013-12-21 00:21 · Score: 1

They're advocating a 'constitutional convention' to rewrite the Constitution to their liking,...
Yeah, first attack the messengers, then attempt to assign intentions and actions to them that are nowhere but in your mind.
Try actually reading the content and maybe actually do a little independent research instead of parroting talking points.
You can start with the FAQ: http://www.conventionofstates.com/sites/default/files/COS%20FAQs%20handout.pdf
But of course, that might disturb your established biases and world-view.
Congress has abrogated their duties and obligations by creating Federal agencies, departments, etc and transferring the ability to make laws and/or regulations with the power of law, which is prima facia un-Constitutional on it's face. The President thinks that he has the power to decide what laws and what parts he'll enforce and when, effectively bypassing a large portion of Congress' powers and checks completely.
Congress is no longer an effective check on expansion of Federal scope and power. It has become a club for career politicians who only want to increase their power, wealth, and control while using the power of the government and their position in it to make certain they remain in office, often for decades. It no longer represents the people or the best interests of the nation.
The US is on the ragged edge of an economic and social collapse. The government is the source of the problem, therefor cannot, is incapable of, and has no real will to fix the problems it has created. It's now up to the citizens to take action. If you've got a better idea, get up and do something instead of kibitzing on what others who actually take action do.
Talk is cheap.
Strat

--
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Re:Slavery by jamstar7 · 2013-12-21 18:36 · Score: 1

From the website, right in the banner:

The Federal Government is broken.

Washington D.C. will never voluntarily relinquish its power. Left unchecked, the government will continue to bankrupt this nation and destroy the liberty of the people. It is time for citizens and the States to act and we have the solution.
The 'solution' they're proposing is an end run around Congress, in that the 'faq' states that said 'convention' can show up, propose Constitutional amendments, and have them instantly ratified, even though they admit in their faq that the Federal government is in compliance with all amendments so far:

In addition to this, it should be noted that the federal government has not violated the amendments passed in recent years. Women’s suffrage, for example, has been 100% upheld.
So, they claim the Feds are overreaching their authority and bypassing the constitution even though they admit that is not the case? And that this is not an attempt to do an end run around Congress to rewrite the Constitution?

Incorrect, but thank you for playing. Article V plainly states:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress.
You might only need 34 states to stick the gun to Congress' head, but you still need 38 to pull the trigger. AND said amendment MUST still go through Congress even after said 34 states hand it to Congress on a platter, passing with a 2/3 majority vote in both houses. That pesky bit of 'all legislation must go through Congress' and 'be proposed by the Congress', remember?

What are these guys calling for? Let's see, from the website:

Meckler said that “the purpose of the convention is to limit the scope, power, and jurisdiction of the federal government,” and “that’s a debate we should be having during a presidential year.”

Beck added that when he has spoken with lawmakers about the topic, they have told him that “the most important thing you can do is restrain our power.” But Congress will never willingly impose term limits on itself, they add. It must happen through the states.

“Our role is to organize the citizenry,” Meckler concluded. “My background is in the Tea Party movement, and so we know how to organize. We have citizens in every state, and we’re organizing literally at the state legislative level in all 50 states right now.”
We're talking about Mark Meckler here, co-founder of 'Tea Party Patriots', funded by the Koch Brothers. Ah, but Meckler resigned from TPP and started 'Citizens For Self-Governance', as well as working for a 'Super-PAC' called Campaign for Primary Accountability (bankrolled by 3 Texican billionaires), still pushing for the Tea Party platform of 'limit the scope, power and juristiction of the federal government', so nothing's really changed except the name on the door. What do they want to limit? Taxation, mainly, and regulatory agencies. Basically, anything that would cause the backers of CFS-G to spend some of their profits, like those pesky Environmental Protection Agency 'illegally regulating health and safety' to corporations, the IRS 'illegally taxing corporate profits', OSHA 'illegally regulating safety concerns and mandating safety standards', the usual lot. If it costs a corporation a buck in profits, they're against it. Who funds C

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Slavery by jamstar7 · 2013-12-21 19:13 · Score: 1

Excuse me, I meant Leo Strauss, not Levi. It's 2AM here and I need caffeine...

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.

Unpaid Internship Slave Labor by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:32 · Score: 0

What could be more 'merican than that?

Gov't follows industry--makes perfect sense by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:32 · Score: 0

Considering 9 out of 10 Fortune 500 companies use interns (at least 1/2 of them unpaid), gov't is just nothing but a model of a modern day corporation... especially those in media or tech.

Interns are great, lots of 'spunk', will work overtime no sweat, do anything you ask, and are actually interested in the work.... but lack any real world experience, domain knowledge, and are plainly inefficient... even the geniuses for what I've seen. It's only a few that make a difference or shine... but what's the chances it's different from a F/T employee? Not much aside from interns can get controlled to an extent.

Considering I see more interns than employees are several big media and brick-n-mortar companies... I find this quite NOT surprising. It's a short term solution that will bite the gov't in the butt eventually. Cause the really problem is [really] training existing F/T employees and interns in building skillsets.... and NO ONE does that anymore.

no surprise by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:34 · Score: 0

ok... so let's see how this works.... we go from someone who had possibly some idea of how to do his job to kids who may post the info on google+ and facebook... nice.... well, I guess the failures of healthcare.gov and what happens when you let people who have no idea how to do the job correctly went unnoticed.

It's definitely a problem here by MikeRT · 2013-12-20 06:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

DHS is clustered heavily in DC and the areas immediately outside of DC within the beltway. The cost of moving to this area just to work could easily add $10k-$12k in debt or lost savings for just a single summer. This is simply not an internship that makes sense for any student who comes from a family lacking real wealth.

Re:It's definitely a problem here by Antique+Geekmeister · 2013-12-20 08:02 · Score: 1

It makes complete sense for the families of DC middle management, for the children of federal employees and lobbyists and military families with college age kids.
Re:It's definitely a problem here by Bookworm09 · 2013-12-20 09:13 · Score: 1

Why is this modded 'insightful'? I know it's uncool to actually read TFA, but if you had, you would have seen where it said,"Through the program, more than 100 unpaid student volunteer assignments will be available to support DHS’ cyber mission at local DHS field offices in over 60 locations across the country".
Re:It's definitely a problem here by TechyImmigrant · 2013-12-20 11:12 · Score: 1

>at local DHS field offices in over 60 locations across the country
Stretching far afield to places like Virginia and Maryland.

--
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Re:It's definitely a problem here by DigiShaman · 2013-12-20 15:03 · Score: 1

It should be noted that DC is the only place in America with an active baby boom going on now! These people are swimming in wealth and prosperity!!! For them, it's like living in 1998 all funded by -you- the tax payer.

--
Life is not for the lazy.

$0/Hr? by MobSwatter · 2013-12-20 06:39 · Score: 1

Now that is attractive, maybe we should have $0/Hr employee's set the next encryption standard, NSA would love that.

Get out the plunger by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:39 · Score: 0

Yeah, well when you are flushing as much money down the toilet as DHS is, they had to cut corners somewhere. And it isn't going to be on programs that make rich people richer.

Sounds like a career killer to me by erroneus · 2013-12-20 06:40 · Score: 5, Interesting

Put that experience on a resume and you're likely to see more rejections than you would expect normally. There was a time when "government job" meant something but now it means something else entirely to a growing number of people and businesses out there. Things are getting polarized. Working and living in the DC area showed me exactly how polarized they are even 3-4 years ago.

Re:Sounds like a career killer to me by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:37 · Score: 1

I can personally attest to this. I've spent over ten years trying to escape government contracts. Every time a potential private sector company talks to me, they always say things like "Things are different on the corporate side than in the government. We're much more fast paced." I'm going to disagree there, seeing as part of my contracts have led me to work in Afghanistan being rocketed at while still managing to fix servers, and the constant fear of pissing off a 4 star general and ruining my career. I am sick and tired of the higher classified contracts, where I work in a cave with no windows, and my only customers have the power to send me to GTMO if I screw up. Yeah, escaping the GOV is hard, and it's a black hole, but at least I can pay my bills.
Re:Sounds like a career killer to me by Overzeetop · 2013-12-20 09:17 · Score: 1

On the contrary, if you get a TS/SCI clearance which is tagged to your person, it's a near guarantee of a quick job at a contractor with the intelligence or military.
Government jobs are rarely free tickets to industry. Unless you were an insider with contacts and power (who could get jobs on the inside), or you happen to have worked for one of the exceptionally rare "shiny" departments (like NASA), a government employee just looks like someone who is going to expect a shit-ton of benefits *plus* the higher outside wages.
This could be one of "those" kinds of jobs. Sure, there are a lot of crazy "constitutional purists" out there; but if you you have the inside knowledge that's a feather worth exploiting. I don't get the free internship crap, though - give 'em a GS-3/4/5 like a regular co-op and they'll at least have money for rent and beer.

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Re:Sounds like a career killer to me by erroneus · 2013-12-20 10:36 · Score: 1

At the moment, until the people can trust their government again, participating in government makes you a bad guy especially if your job is essentially protecting the bad guys.
The most significant move to protect the security of the US is for the US to stop ficking with people in other nations. While I recognize that won't stop the Chinese or the Israelis (the Israelis will consider the US an enemy if we stop supporting them) it's a step in the direction of regaining the trust of the people of the US and the other nations of the world. Without trust, we don't have anything... or we won't for long to be sure.
The world is already routing around the damage.

Transformers by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:41 · Score: 0

Wait a minute... isnt this a scene from Transformers 1. Where the hot intern chick steals the info to have her 31337 friend break the signal for her? rut roh! we know how that panned out!

Don't worry about the government shutting down by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:41 · Score: 2, Funny

They don't get paid! It's the biggest safety mechanism that the government has left.

So let me get this straight... by Zephyn · 2013-12-20 06:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

You want to offer a bunch of impressionable young people, most of whom are accumulating large amounts of debt, the opportunity to learn as much as they can about the computer security infrastructure of the country. While they do this, we're not paying them a cent or giving them any guarantees regarding future employment, further increasing their financial insecurity in the present and the future, as well as exploiting whatever sense of loyalty they might feel for their country for the purpose of reducing government labor costs.

What could possibly go wrong?

Re:So let me get this straight... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:28 · Score: 0

revolution!
but then i don't see that as going wrong. its time for one!
has anyone ever thought that while the other side seems to think that it is beneficial to take advantage of these internships to get free labour. one must contemplate in the end what they are really creating. so they hire these youngsters, teach them all about the government infrastructure while bleeding them dry so when they get out of school they are further in debt with nothing to loose.. sounds like a whole lot of fuel waiting for a spark to me.. and im more than willing to set that powder-keg off!
By "they" i am referring to anyone trying to centralize power. i still don't see how we are not using the internet to help decentralize power.
"The world will always need a rebolution. That doesnt mean shooting and violence. A revolution is when you change your thinking." - Jose Mujica
Re:So let me get this straight... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:02 · Score: 0

So, while working for the government can mean lots of red-tape, restrictions, and other downsides, there are some pluses. Those who hold clearances in DC know that just having one raises your salary (because the process to get one is lengthy and not everyone puts up with it or is able to pass it), your job is more secure (the govt is not going to ship your job off to India), etc. Being young, makes it easier to obtain a clearance (less life-history).
And in DC the field of Cyber-Security is one of the hottest fields, so while you might not have a job now-- with a clearance and with the trend of increasing need for cyber-security engineers, you ARE much more likely to get a job. So, while not a promise, it's a good bet in my book that you'll be able to get a job.
Re:So let me get this straight... by deconfliction · 2013-12-20 08:22 · Score: 1

it's called pro-active entrapment. I'm pretty sure the government use of this is rampant with underage youth in our high schools as well.

from bad to worse by swschrad · 2013-12-20 06:47 · Score: 1

"Hi, I'm Jihad McMuhammed, I'm here to start data analysis as your newest intern."

"fine, why don't you take the Assistant Leader Personal Security desk over here, and coordinate our reactions to intelligence... you can text when you're not busy."

what could possibly be wrong about that?

--
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?

There are just not enough facepalms. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:51 · Score: 0

Meanwhile, talented people in the DC area who have been in the industry for 20+ years are losing jobs to dirt-cheap developers with zero talent and outrageously padded resumes.

ideologically pure, how? by swschrad · 2013-12-20 06:51 · Score: 1

batwing crazies are fixated, too

--
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?

Re:ideologically pure, how? by deconfliction · 2013-12-20 08:18 · Score: 1

GP was clearly worth being moderated 5:funny instead of its current 5:interesting. So I guess you can be forgiven for the lack dark-humor detection.

"secret" doesn't mean "secret" anymore. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:54 · Score: 2, Informative

It has been diluted into what was called "sensitive but unclassified".

In most cases, you have to have "secret" just to get past the guard house.

When I started, the order was "unclassified","classified", "secret", "top secret", with variations within those categories. Nowdays unclassified means unemployed :), classified means its an official document... But to get on base you have to have a "secret" or "top secret" clearance. For DHS, it means than secret is needed to get past the front door.

The other reason for the dilution is that whoever the person talks to will likely have a higher clearance... And even though they will be doing what used to be unclassified work, they need secret just because their office made/monitor will have secret talks that could be overheard. Not to mention seeing whats on a desk...

Re:What constitution? by sumdumass · 2013-12-20 06:54 · Score: 1

The 13th really has nothing to do with it. No one will need to be compelled to do this so it would be neither involuntary or slavery. It would be more like charity.

Oh, and as soon as the 13th does come into play, you need to involve the 5th too. Time and effort is still the most common private property held by the people and if it is seized for public use, just compensation is more than appropriate.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2013-12-20 06:57 · Score: 2

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Something on the resume of than classwork ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 06:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

"...100+ of the nations' best-and-brightest college students.."
"..to work for nothing"

Boy. Can't imagine how they could say no to that.

They are college students. They get course credit for things like this, each quarter/semester is the equivalent of an elective class. That has a monetary value.

Plus a key to getting hired is to have something on your resume other than your degree and its assigned coursework/projects. So it has monetary value in that regard too. Its not terribly different than voluntarily contributing to a FOSS project, well other than HR departments probably consider DHS experience and references more valuable.

Thirdly, if you want to work for DHS this gets your foot in the door. In governmental bureaucracies like this knowing someone inside and/or having an insider reference is quite valuable. Works in corporations too. I think the newly announced General Motors CEO started at GM as an intern when she was in college.

That said, I am not against paid internships. I am merely pointing out that as a student even an unpaid internship can have a value.

Re:Something on the resume of than classwork ... by whoever57 · 2013-12-20 07:14 · Score: 1

They are college students. They get course credit for things like this, each quarter/semester is the equivalent of an elective class.

That's part of the problem. Credit should not be given for "internships" like this, which are clearly (read the description) used to obtain free labor with no training given back (just on-the-job experience).

--
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Re:Something on the resume of than classwork ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:26 · Score: 1

They are college students. They get course credit for things like this, each quarter/semester is the equivalent of an elective class.
That's part of the problem. Credit should not be given for "internships" like this, which are clearly (read the description) used to obtain free labor with no training given back (just on-the-job experience).
I had a "paid internship", actually it was called "cooperative education" - I have no idea if there is a distinction between the two, and to get credit I had to write a report at the end of the quarter explaining how this work related to and contributed to my field of study. I'm not claiming that this report is some great hurdle but there is supposed to be some educational aspect, well at least in the co-op class I had.
Re:Something on the resume of than classwork ... by LurkerXXX · 2013-12-20 08:05 · Score: 2

Unpaid internships are little better than no internship.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/do-unpaid-internships-lead-to-jobs-not-for-college-students/276959/
Re:Something on the resume of than classwork ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 08:29 · Score: 1

Unpaid internships are little better than no internship.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/do-unpaid-internships-lead-to-jobs-not-for-college-students/276959/
A 1.8% increase overall, however for some majors there is a 10% or 20% increase.

Is this a Labor Law violation? by peterofoz · 2013-12-20 07:04 · Score: 4, Informative

If they're displacing regular employees or they derive immediate advantage from the activities of the intern...

6 Legal Requirements For Unpaid Internship Programs

Re:Is this a Labor Law violation? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:21 · Score: 1

Interestingly, they use the word "Volunteer". It still looks like a huge labor violation tho...
http://www.elisabettalombardo.com/2009/06/23/internship-vs-volunteering-the-importance-of-the-right-term/

Politician cheer success at reducing unemployment by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:07 · Score: 3, Informative

well hey, it will put people back to work right? I mean who cares if they arent getting paid as long as people are working!

You are not far off. When you go from a good manufacturing job to unemployment to flipping burgers you are a victory in the unemployment statistics, politicians will cheer their success at reducing unemployment.

Probably playing world of warcraft ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:10 · Score: 1

Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.

What makes you think these interns are sys admins? They are probably the folks playing world of warcraft and looking for sinister activities in chat.

April-September, unpaid? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:11 · Score: 0

I'm pretty sure this sort of thing would be illegal over here.
And anyways, this sort of entry on a resume would automatically disqualify the applicant: only idiots need to work for free.

Get your security clearance before graduation ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why in the hell would you have a limited time internship that requires a secret level clearance that will probably take the UNPAID intern months to get? Seems like a ton of hassle for very little reward.

Because it gets you that security clearance before graduation. When you and your peers begin applying for jobs after graduation you have an advantage, you already have security clearance.

Kinda reads like a "Who's Who" from Hell by Cornwallis · 2013-12-20 07:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

"which included execs from Facebook, Lockheed Martin, and Sony, and was advised by representatives from Cisco, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Northrop Grumman, the NSF, and the NSA."

Aren't these chuckleheads a good representation of all that is evil and corrupt and driving Team USA into the ground?

Re:Kinda reads like a "Who's Who" from Hell by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:26 · Score: 0

It's missing Oracle.
Re:Kinda reads like a "Who's Who" from Hell by Bucc5062 · 2013-12-20 07:33 · Score: 1

I have mod points, but could not figure out Insightful, funny, or interesting so I post for all three and hope others mod you up.. Well said.

--
Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
Re:Kinda reads like a "Who's Who" from Hell by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:40 · Score: 0

The official term is "Military-Industrial Complex".
Eisenhower was remarkably prescient.
Re:Kinda reads like a "Who's Who" from Hell by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 11:22 · Score: 0

And my megacorp employer. But we pay interns quite well.

Government doesn't live by its own rules ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Didn't they just recently pass laws/regulations pretty much banning unpaid internship for most private businesses???

Since when does government have to live by the rules it imposes on individuals and business? Exempting itself is a common practice.

Scraping the barrel here by redmid17 · 2013-12-20 07:28 · Score: 1

You're telling me the largest single discretionaru expenditure point of the government, the DoD, can't fork out minimum wage for Info Sec interns? Jesus the least I got when interning in college was $12 an hour. The other positions paid me $19 or $20 WHILE I got course credit. I know guys that interned with some bigger companies pulling down almost twice that.
Good luck with this approach DHS. Not like there is any competition out there...

you are fooling yourself by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 07:31 · Score: 0

EVERY goddamn Silicon Valley asshole will be all over these interns.

Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . by matfud · 2013-12-20 07:42 · Score: 2

I don't know how it works in the US. In the UK a security clearence is bound to your employer. Getting a new job involves transfering it.
Mind you getting a SC is easier if you have had one previously.

Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . by Githaron · 2013-12-20 07:50 · Score: 1

If I understanding it correctly, in the US, your clearance is deactivated when you leave but can easily be reactivated by another employer with a certain period of time. Otherwise, you have to start the whole original expensive and time-consuming process over.

Re:Politician cheer success at reducing unemployme by Obfuscant · 2013-12-20 07:51 · Score: 3, Informative

When you go from a good manufacturing job to unemployment to flipping burgers you are a victory in the unemployment statistics, politicians will cheer their success at reducing unemployment.

That's better than "go from good manufacturing job to no job to running out of unemployment insurance to giving up looking" which also counts as a success at reducing unemployment numbers.

Best Intern I can think of by Antique+Geekmeister · 2013-12-20 07:57 · Score: 2

I hear Edward Snowden is looking for a job.

Re:Best Intern I can think of by Overzeetop · 2013-12-20 09:18 · Score: 1

Better yet, he already has his security clearance, though it might need a minor update now that he's done some international travel. ;-)

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?

No pay by PPH · 2013-12-20 08:20 · Score: 1

All the data and documents you can carry.

--
Have gnu, will travel.

Better pay by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:26 · Score: 1

but the enemy pays better...

Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . by parkinglot777 · 2013-12-20 08:28 · Score: 3, Funny

If you want to know about security clearance in the US, you can check it at http://www.state.gov/m/ds/clearances/c10978.htm

For the cost of getting security clearance, you who is an employee would not be paying but your employer. I believe the cost is varied depended on case by case. http://news.clearancejobs.com/2011/08/07/how-much-does-it-really-cost-to-get-a-security-clearance/ gives some idea about how much but it is 2 years old...

The value the USA puts on security by dutchwhizzman · 2013-12-20 08:35 · Score: 2

Well there you have it. The USA government finds security so important they are willing to spend the grand sum of $0 on it. They could have some pretty good consultants if they'd pay $100/hour

The interns they really want, easily get a decent pay for their skills in a lot of computer companies. Anyone willing to work for $0 will have ulterior motives to do so. Either they are so unskilled that even operating a cash register at a fast food restaurant at minimum wages is too difficult for them, or someone else is paying them to go do the work.

If the government didn't want to be regulating prices and wages and income of their citizens, they would put out a bid and have the lowest qualifying bidders do the job. Now they are pushing the market by forcing the price to zero.

I don't know who came up with this plan, but they really must hate their country and it's citizens a lot.

--
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?

The CEO of GM started as a PAID intern. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 08:58 · Score: 0

BIG DIFFERENCE. General Motors Institute (then GMI, now Kettering, still a respectable engineering school) in Flint was THE school of choice for brainiac techies from working and middle-class suburbs in southeastern Michigan. The co-valedictorian from the class of 400+ that graduated a year ahead of me, the boy who warped the curve upwards (by 50 points out of 200 or so) in my high school physics class, headed off to GMI. It meant he'd graduate from college debt free and was almost guaranteed a decent job upon graduation if he didn't get thunked on the head or arrested. Those were the days.....

You get what you pay for. by lophophore · 2013-12-20 09:16 · Score: 2

The best and the brightest are going to shiny big companies that will pay them well for their internships. We've all heard the stories about compensation of interns at Google, Facebook, and Microsoft.

Further, in the post-Snowden world, I doubt many idealistic young computer scientists want *anything* to do with the feds "cyber"-anything.

The DHS will get bottom-of-barrel "talent" -- if any at all.

--
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't

Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . by Chris+Mattern · 2013-12-20 09:37 · Score: 1

Same in the US. However, getting the security clearance transferred is *much* easier than getting one from scratch (which, as someone else noted, can take months). It's especially easier if the clearance is currently active. So it's worthwhile to get one with whomever will get you one and then move to where you really want to be; having a currently active clearance will be a big leg up.

Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . by s.petry · 2013-12-20 09:54 · Score: 1

Almost, but a bit more involved.

In the US it depends on what type of clearance you get. Higher level clearances are tied to an employer, and will be suspended if you leave. A new employer can reactivate the clearance within 5 years, and of course a new more brief checking. Lower level clearances can be personal, and not tied to an employer. Those also expire in 5 years if not renewed (spend $$)

That said, the clearance by itself does not give you access to anything. Each assignment will have it's own rules, and you must be sworn in to each assignment. These assignments require X classification, but each is unique. I worked with agents at the DOD that left the room during certain times because they were not sworn on to the program. Even with a higher clearance, if they saw data on said project they would have to go through the normal debriefing process and it was reported as an incident. Incidents with DSS are not necessarily bad, and were somewhat expected during audits.

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-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

Disconnect by phorm · 2013-12-20 10:02 · Score: 1

There is often a bigger disconnect between contractors and internal staff due to a different reporting structure etc.
When you've got a revolving door of contractors it's harder to give them the same amount of attention that you can to permanent staff.

makes no sense by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 10:19 · Score: 0

The best and brightest and many of the not so bright CS students can find paid summer internships with many a software heavy company. I have worked for several companies that hired such summer interns. The NSA can expect to get what it pays for.

The intern is a **known**, a safe hire ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 10:22 · Score: 1

And my previous employer was located next to a state university. We had a paid internship and one of the CS majors next door worked for my team. He was pretty good so we offered him a permanent position when he graduated. This was about 8 or so years ago. You don't have to go into the distant past to see the value of internships.

We didn't bother advertising a job and do the normal recruiting. He was pretty good, got along with others and had some familiarity with our project(s). I can't emphasize strongly enough that he was a **known** in terms of skill and fit and that weighed heavily in just offering him a position rather than publicly advertising an open position.

As for paid vs unpaid, I have nothing against paid, however an article another poster in this thread offered shows that for some majors an unpaid internship can increase the odds of a job offer by 10% to 20%. Admittedly paid internships increase the odds of a job by far more and are a benefit to a wider range of majors. My only point is that unpaid internships are not necessarily a losing strategy for some students.

Those were the days

Those were also the days where a junior CS major could get a part-time job programming for a local hole--in-the wall company, rent a 4 or 5 bedroom house with some school mates and pay for school, rent, computers and still have a little beer money left over.

Re:The intern is a **known**, a safe hire ... by matfud · 2013-12-22 09:14 · Score: 1

Yep.
I was only worried by the"unpaid" part.:)

The old saying by Dunbal · 2013-12-20 11:19 · Score: 1

You get what you pay for.

--
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.

Sind alle Computer Hackbar ? Nein ! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 12:13 · Score: 0

http://scherbius2014.de/SindAlleComputerHackbar.html

Jaja, leider nicht auf Englisch, liebe Angelsachsen. Maybe one of you finds the time to tranlsate this. Actually, I doubt it, as you seem to be Scared To Hell by the military.

Which side shall I choose... by Nethemas+the+Great · 2013-12-20 12:19 · Score: 1

Shall I work for free protecting the very organizations that declined me even a job interview, or shall I work for a nice cushy salary pilfering from them? Decisions, decisions...

--
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.

Don't use GT by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 12:21 · Score: 0

Google Translate will fuck up the meaning of the most important sentences.

sounds suspiciously like what the Indian diplomat by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 17:11 · Score: 0

was recently arrested and strip searched for... paying an employee below minimum wage.. way way below minimum wage... DHS needs to be charged for the same crime

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DHS Turns To Unpaid Interns For Nation's Cyber Security

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