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Citizen Science: Who Makes the Rules?
New submitter UnderCoverPenguin writes "At MakeZine, David Lang talks about the some of the legal issues around a planned, amateur science 'expedition,' as well as some other amateur science projects.
In the not too distant past, most science was amateur. Over the past 20 or so years, society has been making it harder for amateurs to do real science, despite the technical costs falling. With the recent upswing of the 'maker movement,' amateur science has seen an increase as well, but is running into an assortment of legal issues. (An exception is astronomy, where amateurs continue to play important roles. Of course, astronomy doesn't involve chemicals or other (currently) 'scary stuff.') Can amateur science make a come-back? Or are the legal obstacles too entrenched?"
Can amateur science make a come-back?.....amateur science has seen an increase
Sounds like the answer is, "Yes."
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Thanks to the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on fireworks, the war on common sense and various other wars, its becoming harder and harder for amateurs who want to do chemistry (either generic experiments or genuine research) in their own home/shed/backyard.
Chemical suppliers wont sell to amateurs and hobbyists. Basic chemicals are restricted from sale because they happen to be used in drugs/fireworks/explosives as well as the 100 other uses those chemicals happen to be used for. Some US states require licenses or registration for even basic lab equipment. Hobby chemists who have done nothing illegal are being raided by the police and having their gear seized because it "could be used to make bombs/drugs/fireworks/etc"
Which can be worse than a merely inaccurate one. First of all, TFA says nothing about changes in the past 20 years, and many of the things described in the article have manifestly not just been made up in the past 20 years. Do you really think Mexico would have let you take biological specimens prior to 1994? Second, the tone of the summary implies that these experiments are being restricted because they are "scary stuff". Only a minority of the experiments described in the article are associated with scaring the public, such as the GMO one, and even that explains that Kickstarter came to that decision after consulting with scientists, rather than just banning such things because they sounded scary. In fact, the spin of the article is completely opposite from the summary--the summary implies that these restrictions are caused by hysteria, which really isn't in the article at all.
Why bother with the time, expense, and hard work of amateur science when you can just outsource it to people who make stuff up?
Where is this David Lang getting this stuff from?
Just the other day I was listening to an interview of an artist that had published a well received book on avian anatomy. Pick just about any field and there are people without degrees in that field doing real science and getting it taken seriously.
TFA is not so much about "legal issues" as it is about the struggle to get permission to collect biological specimens in another country. Another country where there's unfortunately been a long history of scientists and pseudo-scientists from more wealthy countries showing up and taking whatever they wanted, sometimes to the severe detriment of the locals. Ok, we're talking about Mexico and the US if you're too lazy to read TFA. The "legal issues" are the system of review the Mexican government has put in place in response to prior abuses, designed to ensure new research projects don't exploit, destroy, or otherwise cause the kinds of problems both amateur and professional scientists have caused in the past. I'm glad the author of the TFA is attempting to work out how to make it work, rather than just declare that his 'right' to do research in another country trumps local law, and I'm also glad to hear the Mexican government people he emailed appear to be responding throughtfully.
TL,DR - this isn't about citizen science being stifled by The Man, it's about a particular project hitting a hiccup caused by a long history of 'amateur scientists' exploiting and destroying another country's cultural and biological heritage.
It's an example of the real reason. Most people can't even write their own name properly. That makes them too dumb to do real science.
The fact that scientific knowledge, in the form of scientific articles, is locked behind exorbitant journal paywalls is what is preventing amateur science the most, not to mention would be professional science in places that can't afford the outlandish subscription fees.
It's a crime against humanity preventing what is often publicly funded scientific knowledge from being shared far and wide, as it could be with virtually no cost on the Internet.
This is a shameful state of affairs that needs to be fixed one way or the other. Long live Aaron!
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
The legal obsicles are to entranched because big guverment is literary marksist fashism.
Can somebody please explain to me what legal obsicles are?
Some guy wants to take a bunch of tourists down to Mexico and collect some "samples", and is pissed off because they need a permit to go around cutting up plants and digging in the ground and carrying vials and packages of biological materials back through customs.
When he read the permit process he realized that he's not even a scientist by amateur standards because he doesn't understand anything they're asking him, and basically what they're asking him for is some details on what he's planning on gathering from what locations, and how he plans on actually doing it.
I've seen better proposals put together by grade school children. This isn't about preventing amateur science, it's about keeping idiots from damaging shit or people from running harvesting operations under the guise of "science".
We just try to discover them.
Anyone can do it if they ask reality the right questions (experiments).
For a group of citizen explorers, without an affiliation to a scientific institution, this is a daunting endeavor.
I think this could just be amended to "For a group of scientists this is a daunting endeavor." Of course scientists attached to a legal institution can probably draw on the help of other resources and people who know how to jump through some of these hoops. But they still have to deal with the same legal issues.
It's the sad state of spelling in the texting age. Either that, or more of that "Ebonics" crap.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
...to the state/country where their work will be legal and hopefully profitable to the state/country that makes them welcome.
Sounds like a nice start to a science fiction novel.
http://nwbagpipes.com/
Wouldn't the complexity of doing stuff be the biggest bottleneck at some point?
Just like game programming: in the past you could code simple games in a week (or a weekend if you are a tough guy). Compare that to modern shader-based graphics programming -- you will spend the first month just finding out how to set up things to draw anything meaningful on the screen.
Own a cellphone? You own a 'remote detonator for an explosive device' - you terrorist!
Bleach and ammonia in your house? You have the makings of 'chemical weapons' - you terrorist!
Can of gasoline and some fertilizer for your garden? You have 'elements for an explosive device' - you terrorist!
(And heaven help you if you happen to own a pressure canner, and perhaps a box of nails or two!)
And, damn, if you have even more electrical know-how and can program an Arudino or BS2 or something, you are an 'advanced' terrorist!
And then of course, if you are here posting on slashdot about such things... well, you must be an anti-government subversive! And terrorist!
If you want to do science on your own, you can and should incorporate. Be a non-profit if you'd like. The entrenched system which stifles non-university researchers gladly accepts small businesses and NGOs, as long as they have some funding.
The number one thing you should not expect about doing science, at any level, is that it will be cheap, quick or lean. When it comes to science those words mean the same thing as "violating environmental and safety law" or simply doing a piss-poor job.
If you want to do real chemistry or biology work, you will find that renting or begging lab space somewhere will be cheaper than actually making your garage legally suitable.
I've heard of "scientists" taking samples of psychoactive cactus to be analysed via the bioassay method. It's a lot like Japanese whale studies.
In that you choose which rules to follow, and which to ignore, subvert, avoid, or not even bother learning about.
Small correction. The editors on this site are paid employees. This was done by a professional illiterate.
I'm a second year biochemistry student who's had a lifelong passion for chemistry. I've slowly built myself a lab over the years, where I've mostly been making or purifying OTC chemicals to common lab reagents. One day I came across an old paper claiming high yields of acetonitrile when using calcium carbide as a dehydrating agents instead of phosphorus pentoxide. I've talked to quite a few people having problems finding phosphorus pentoxide, or it just being too expensive to use. So being the curious person I am, I thought I'd try both agents and report my yields on the forums. Because I wanted good numbers, I decided to buy some acetamide instead if making it. The only other reagent you use in the distillation. Simply ordered a 250 g jar off ebay, but the order never arrived. Four months later I receive a phone call by the police, interrogating me about the contents of the package, and my intentions with it. I invented a little half-lie on the spot, said I used it for a curing bath for photographic film. A month later I do receive it, labeled "Seized by customs". But now I'm afraid to do anything, expecting them to be at my door at any moment, to see what I'm "really" using it for. So I close down my "lab" temporarily, pack it all into some cases and put them for storage. The next week I get another call from the police, this time from an investigator on "my case". Asking about the amounts I had used, and for what. Etc.
And now I don't know what to do anymore. And all this for acetamide, a substance you get when mixing ammonia and "non-acetone nail polish remover", not even a precursor to any drugs (although it can be used to make a precursor), and has no use in either bombs or pyrotechnics.
Seems like a quick end to a rather short-lived hobby.
Thanks to the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on fireworks, the war on common sense and various other wars, its becoming harder and harder for amateurs who want to do chemistry in their own home/shed/backyard.
Chemical suppliers wont sell to amateurs and hobbyists.
The A C Gilbert Heirloom Chemistry Set project was fully funded three days ago. ($149,000)
H.M.S. Beagle has about 600 chemicals for sale online. H.M.S. Beagle Publications: Materials Safety Data Sheets
United Nuclear is a rich resource for the amateur scientist. Radioactive Isotopes. Chemistry Experiments
-----
Chemistry Supply Websites
Very misleading original article full of misguided complaints. Controls on the export of native plants or other biological specimen have been in place for hundreds of years, and with much harsher penalties.
The members of the expedition have a, admittedly tedious, path to get permits. Just play by the rules.
When John Rolfe smuggled tobacco from Trinidad to Virginia in 1611, establishing its tobacco farming industry, there was a mandatory death sentence for seed smugglers imposed by the Spanish colonialists.
Na + h20 = FU
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
What are you USA, the damn matrix that can take kill anyone, even HITLER would be so jealous of the powers of USA.
Or have ex-3rd reight taken over usa in the 50s and run it now.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
instructions unclear; got tumour stuck in revolving door
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
Microryza, which appears to basically be Kickstarter for science projects, was recently brought to my attention. It doesn't look like there's anything barring non-academics / "amateurs" from starting up a project.
WOPR
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
It's disgusting to blame scientists for multinational corporations using a broken patent system as a blunt instrument. That's just kicking the cat.
Why, its all on google, the first 5 years is just duplicating existing work, so in 6 years time, you wasted 6 years doing nothing.
Learning due process and procedure is a 5 min task, just give me the template/rules manual.
An amature would rather spend immediate time doing research, thought experiments than trying to learn the exact stuff needed for specific exams to pass to get a grade to move on. A genius doesnt need a 2nd opinion.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Franklin sued to pay people to steal corpses so he and his friends could dissect them and learn about anatomy. This was very highly illegal in Colonial America. They had a basement in a where he was staying . It was a part of the Enlighenment impulse to to come to understand reality through natural science without the *benefit* of the intermediaries of his day the Church and the King, who were glad to tell you everything you needed to know about any topic whatsoever.
As is sometimes the case with facts about historical Americans you have to go overseas to get a unbiased analysis of what was going on. US web pages will tell you Franklin this universally curious and endlessly inventive guy, golly, just knew nothing about what was happening in the basement of the house he lived- he was more interested in non-squimish subject matter like physics . Overseas of course they're less sensitive to the idea that one of our Founding Fathers may have been involved in grave robbing and dissecting corpses merely for curiosity's sake:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/aug/11/usa.past
I am interested in those areas where "doing it for a living" does not, overall, result in the highest skill compared to those who do not. Look especially at difficult areas of endeavor.
Getting good at science---or any other rigorous profession---requires both underlying talent, and long-term motivation to study and practice for at least a decade as an adult.
The professional side, meaning that people get paid to do work, also comes with a substantial initial filter on knowledge and talent, because people who pay others to do work want to get the most from their money.
The obvious other example is in sports---is there any sport which has a professional league where a substantial number of amateurs are seriously competitive? I'm unaware of any. In fact, professional sports teams are enormously better than even the best amateur clubs.
Amateurism won't achieve this other than exceptionally rare and globally insignificant individuals. The intersection of a) sufficiently self-funded b) sufficiently talented and c) sufficiently motivated to work intensely at one thing for a long time is very small. Generally people with enough money to be (a) won't want to bother with (c). Why should they, when they can do whatever they want? If they have to work for a living like most people, they may not be sufficiently talented, but more importantly they don't have the time to devote to it.
It also helps to learn the core ideas between age 18 and 30.
What does work is for billionaires to set up companies and foundations in areas that they are particularly interested, for example Craig Venter or Fred Kavli. The billionaire may close enough to the science to understand it, but not able to advance it more than the people he hires.
You just wait. Someday an amateur astronomer is going to discover an asteroid that will hit the earth and kill us all. Then you'll see how scary amateur astronomy really is! We can only be safe by prohibiting these dangerous amateurs and leaving the field to the responsible professionals.
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Stealing bodies led to many medical advances and for a period of time was what medical schools were forced into. It's what you had to do if you wanted to learn about human physiology in those times.
Eventually it became such a problem that grave robbers started taking short cuts and created their own corpses (cf. Burke and Hare). This eventually led to the 1832 Anatomy Act in England addressing the crisis in medical education that the short supply of cadavers created.
From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burke_and_Hare_murders#Anatomy_Act_1832
"Burke and Hare ... it is said, are the real authors of the measure, and that which would never have been sanctioned by the deliberate wisdom of parliament, is about to be extorted from its fears ... It would have been well if this fear had been manifested and acted upon before sixteen human beings had fallen victims to the supineness of the Government and the Legislature. It required no extraordinary sagacity, to foresee that the worst consequences must inevitably result from the system of traffic between resurrectionists and anatomists, which the executive government has so long suffered to exist. Government is already in a great degree, responsible for the crime which it has fostered by its negligence, and even encouraged by a system of forbearance."
You mean regulatory authorities don't want random yahoos hauling biological samples across borders and flying unmanned drones all over the place? Shocking!
Shit, they probably don't want people building nuclear reactors in their backyards, either.
I remember reading in the [now discontinued] "Amateur Scientist" column that used to publish in Scientific American, a guide to how one could build a medium power infrared CO2 laser. Nowadays, just buying the parts would have DHS knocking on your door[or maybe they don't bother with knocking?]
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
One of the major issues here has been the problem of intellectual property. Post plans online, download and print and bypass the licensed manufacturers and distribution network. So the press grabbed the plastic guns issue and ran with it, trying to demonize the hobby.
Its all about open source vs securitized and privatized models for knowledge. You figure out how to make something yourself and you put a dent in corporate shareholders' property.
Have gnu, will travel.
Yep. Same thing with computers. If it was up to IBM et al computers and the internet would still be the sole providence of the elites- unbelievably pricey stuff we only heard about second and third hand. The whole industry would be tiny, and super expensive. It's not he elites who ever pass anything along downstream, it's the tinkerers and hobbyists and garage inventors.
...to amateur science is lack of access to advanced instrumentation and infrastructure in many disciplines. And the knowledge and training to use it. There is a reason good scientists earn advanced degrees and engage in continuous professional training throughout their careers.
Own a cellphone? You own a 'remote detonator for an explosive device' - you terrorist!
And if you take pictures of your kids with that phone, you're a pedophile terrorist.