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Japan To Create a Nuclear Meltdown
Taco Cowboy writes "Japanese researchers are planning an experiment to better understand what transpires during a nuclear meltdown by attempting to create a controlled nuclear meltdown. Using a scaled down version of a nuclear reactor — essentially a meter long stainless steel container — the experiment will involve the insertion of a foot long (30 cm) nuclear fuel rod, starting the fission process, and then draining the coolant. The experiment is scheduled to take place later this year."
What could possibly go wrong?
By the way, didn't they have to hand in their license to do nuclear stuff already?
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
Carry on, Japan.
Meep.
what could go wrong?
I mean, didn't they see all those Godzilla movies?
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
They have a proven track record
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
He picks up a bus and he throws it back down as he wades through the buildings toward the center of town. Helpless people on subway trains scream "My god!" as he looks in on them.
Suddenly.
I like this department.
Can't wait for this mini meltdown to lead to its inevitable ultimate conclusion: MiniGodzilla!
It seems so obvious to me now, having seen the idea in print. This is not the sort of thing that is easy to analyze. A test is really a good way to understand the phenomenon. The paradigm where engineers attempt to make sure it never happens has its limits. Looking at what happens during the failure will allow engineers to develop meaningful "defense in depth" measures.
Regards,
Jason C. Wells
Old news
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavior_of_nuclear_fuel_during_a_reactor_accident#PHEBUS
>In France a facility exists in which a fuel melting incident can be made to happen under strictly controlled conditions.
I set off scaled explosions and controlled fires all the time. So do you. We usually call them "fireworks".
Sensationalism.
Oh...no...there goes Tokyo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJoy_0dJEjY
I want my! I want my! I want my Eee PC!
Just give it a little time folks. You will have your answer just like the rest of the world, only sooner.
My cynical mind conjures up images of concerned scientist speculating on the future of Fukushima.
Personally, I speculate what would happen to Japan if they lost control of the situation at Fukushima.
"Given that nuclear expert Arnie Gundersen says that an earthquake of 7.0 or larger could cause the entire fuel pool structure collapse, it is urgent that everything humanly possible is done to stabilize the structure housing the fuel pools at reactor number 4."
And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Gundersen#Fukushima
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Are they going to do this in already contaminated areas, or are they going to potentially screw up some new place?
It's not unreasonable to want to know more from a scientific standpoint, but hopefully someone is asking "what if this goes worse than expected?"
Hmm, contractors lie about it and do a crap job and the government lies about it and does a crap job. That's what my simulation of a Japanese nuclear meltdown resulted in.
Don't they already have a nuclear disaster to clean up?
Don't they have an open-air experiment going on already? Just take a day trip to Fukushima.
They need to make sure they do this somewhere where if it all goes wrong, nothing of value is lost, like maybe Croydon.
... to consider the issues of failure after you've built a bunch of 'em.
As long as it's in controlled environment and they know what they're doing, with the present state of today's nuclear powerplants, only good can come out of this.
How can it be any worse than blasting nuclear bombs nearby population and wildlife?
This sounds much better, so much be great!!
Captcha: nonempty
Loss of Fluid Test at National Reactor Testing Station (now Idaho National Laboratory) tried in the late 60s early 70s, but environmentalists got it blocked.
The situation with the imports of coal and oil / gas is not sustainable.
Renewable sources are part of it, but they do not have the energy density for baseload required to run a modern society. Japan is a nation with limited resources. Their power options are limited. Import of power from neighbors isn't a great long term move for sovereignty.
This puts them between a rock and a hard place, so to speak. Mark my words though, those reactors will be fired up, because they need to be. They should build more.
The scale of the amount of energy consumed by modern civilization is head-spinning. Nuclear is our only real option. Existing technologies should be deployed, and new ones researched. No politician in the west has the balls to do that, so we're going to burn every drop of oil instead, largely because nobody ever looks at the numbers and amount of energy required. (I however, did.)
Thankfully, China may save us.
I just hope the nuclear option picked isn't the one with the warheads. That will fix the problem too. There is some quality black humor and irony there.
..don't panic
A nuclear meltdown for ants!? It should be at least... 3 times as big.
Is this the birth of Godzilla ?
first, they have three meltdowns because they can't get things right in the face of a storm. now, the Japanese seek a meltdown just... because. those Ninjas have the curiosity of a 3 year old...
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
If it's controlled, it's not really a meltdown, is it?
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Better yet, use nuclear power designs that can't melt down to matter what. Plenty of them. Still, more knowledge on a subject is almost always a good thing. SCIENCE!
holy crap, next you're gonna be blathering about non-existent sequels to "The Matrix", "Highlander" or Star Wars prequels.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"We want to study exactly how meltdowns happen and apply what we will learn to help improve ways to deal with severe accidents in the future," said a spokesman for the government-backed engineering agency.
The Japan Atomic Energy Agency said it was working on a project using a scaled-down version of a reactor which they would deliberately cause to malfunction at a research facility in Ibaraki, north of Tokyo.
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So they're just going to make a huge mess out of some testing facility? This seem ridiculous to me.. they know exactly how they're going to cause the reactor to melt down.
When considering fissionable materials they better get their destructive testing planning right the first time. I don't think they'll get another chance to repeat it. Much like the NASA/FAA crashing the Boeing 707 (720) in 1984 to anti-misting agent in the fuel.. Unfortunately the plane didn't land as they had planned but ultimately it showed that the anti-misting agent didn't work but because of smoke, they estimated that only about 23%-25% of the 113 passengers would have survived.
As a result of analysis of the crash, the FAA instituted new flammability standards for seat cushions which required the use of fire-blocking layers, resulting in seats which performed better than those in the test. It also implemented a standard requiring floor proximity lighting to be mechanically fastened, due to the apparent detachment of two types of adhesive-fastened emergency lights during the impact. Federal aviation regulations for flight data recorder sampling rates for pitch, roll and acceleration were found to be insufficient.
So out of a somewhat failed test good things were learned. So let's hope these guys learn something rather than irradiating more of Japan unnecessarily.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
I seem to recall a story about some place in Russia that just had to simulate a "worst case" scenario. Something about the machines safe guards to prevent the very scenario they were trying to cause forced them to dismantle a significant portion. I think something important happened. Maybe one of these researches could look it up, and explain why this isn't a similar stupid procedure.
The first sign of maturity is the discovery that the volume knob also turns to the left. If by maturity you mean old age then yes.
I am not a nuclear physicist, so I really don't know the answer to this. Hasn't a controlled meltdown been done in a lab experiment before though? If so, what is different with this one in comparison to past experiments?
It certainly sounds useful - if for no other reason than because we likely have much better detection equipment (and hence should get much better data) than we likely did the last time something like this was done.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
ever walk down the street, and stumble, but mid-way turn it into a move that some part of you thinks will convince on-lookers that you did it on purpose? like you were just testing out a new dance move for the clubs? what - you mean those thousands of broken spent fuel rod assemblies? yeah - it's cool.. we're into EXPERUMENTING. oh - and if you ask questions in japan on this, off to jail you go!
I know we had unplanned criticality accidents that melted fuel; The US and USSR should have tons of this kind of data.
Shit, ORNL had liquid metal reactors.
Seems like one had to be shut down before it exploded... U233 is a strange beast, apparently; it separates from the liquid metal coolant in globs, lol.
Alvin Weinberg talked about some of the stuff in his books; like burning a whole rail car of uranium to see what happens...
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
The ultra dense heavy radioactive material should burn its way through the mantle and keep falling into the core of the earth. If they can control this and avoid an explosion which would litter the surrounding area in radioactive fallout as happened in Chernobyl this is the clear solution to dispense with Fukashima once and for all.
Two steps below the holocaust.
If only they already had some kind of meltdown that had already happened that they could learn from.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Why isn't this being done in a series of computer simulations? Safer and far more complex scenarios could be covered.
Not to be insensitive, but...
Good luck to them...the quicker they find some sensible way of dealing with and looking after their radioactive material and meltdowns the better IMO. I just hope they've got their calculations right.
What's your point?
When Gojira attacks don't say they didn't have it comming....
Chibi Chernobyl
of, what, 8 dozen anime stories?
god remind me to stay home that day and have the popcorn ready. I figure the new site are going to be busy. facepalm. really? you can't simulate this with a pc or a beowulf cluster? I never stuck my screwdriver into a HV coil either. gesh maybe I should try that to make sure it would shock me. NOT!
The LOFT facility and EBR-II out in Idaho started such tests back in 1976.
Hmm...yeah, you apear to be correct here. Perhaps we could help funnel it through into the mantle, though I suppose we would have no way to assure it would not then circulate and come right back out under even more unfavorable circumstances through a volcano. The current idea is to flash freeze the entire area and keeping it frozen indeffinitly. Fission is simply a terrible idea as Fukashima proves. THe problem is that it brings to the fore the fact that we do not have control. We can manage the plant under normal circumstances, but can't assure that there wont be a tornado, or an earthquake, or a volcano, or an astroid and suddenly all the gains we made from the nuclear energy are a huge liability. The corporations involved will quickly go bankrupt once the profit evaporates leaving the clean up to the people.
And the wind blows only when you are emptying the bucket ahead of you. You need as much or more power generators if you have have before you switch to renewables. A waste of money according to the german and scottish governments and their citizenry.
They did conduct some of the tests in the 60's and 70's in Montana. Heard about some navy boys dying for the cause then. But that was from the russian records, and the canadian records of accidents in the US. Several broken arrows called then and then hushed up fast.
But then, by the way the records have been hidden, the people dead, the NSA,CIA, and the FBI and the agencies that would handle the high grade materials, would you trust what they had to say? I'd independently verify. And if Godzilla shows, be happy, but run like hell.
As if Japan has not had enough problems with nuclear reactors. They have to try and find a way to control a melt down? Good luck with that! Would it not be a better ideal to just admit that nuclear reactors are a bad ideal and that no design or protection can cover all the bases of a design that by default is unstable and must be kept in a perfect state of operation. Even multiple backups can fail do to disasters and that simply understanding the melt down process cannot truly do anything to help make this process any safer.
Reminds me of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.
One meter = 3.28 feet.
The nuclear accident at Fukushima has been greatly overblown.
My family owns a condo in the city mentioned in Pandora's Promise (Guarapari-ES-Brazil), where a Geiger counter reads 20 micro sievert/second, while a half mile away from Fukushima Daichi plant it reads about 4 micro sievert/second these days. That spot isn't isolated, it's in a beach right in the downtown area, people have been sunbathing right there for generations. hundreds of thousands of people flock every summer to the beaches there.
There has been studies and studies trying to find a pattern of elevated cancer in that city. There's none !
The real problem isn't radiation per se. It's the leak of radioactive materials (that in turn produce radiation), mostly Cesium.
With the containment areas and everything, you'd need to actually ingest that material in order to get sick (in large enough quantities).
People mix up the hydrogen gas explosions (which is not radioactive), trying to make the case that it is.
The interesting fact is should the plant operators decided to keep it going, the accident would have been prevented.
Radiation is everywhere. Our body produces radiation from Potassium and other elements that have naturally radioactive isotopes in small concentrations.
It's possible in the days right after the accident it was dangerous, but the risk now is beyond tiny considering the area they relocated people from.
Nuclear reactions happen when you enough radioactive stuff close enough to itself so that it begins a chain reaction, right? So why don't they just make some mechanical failsafe device that pulls the chunks apart to a distance where the reaction doesn't occur? Even if the bars had explosive bottom caps that would go off at a certain (high) temperature - blasting the bars away from each other like bullets is better than the situation where they all melt together and create a runaway reaction... I would think...
We're not dumb. At least provide a link that has a description or diagram of how they're planning to do this.
> Using a scaled down version of a nuclear reactor — essentially a meter long stainless steel container — the experiment will involve the insertion of a foot long (30 cm) nuclear fuel rod, starting the fission process, and then draining the coolant.
Regrettably, this had already happened in real life, in 2003, in Hungary. About a dozen, half-way used fuel rods removed from the Paks NPP were washed onsite, in a closed steel container, to remove iron oxide deposits, but the coolant flow stopped due to faulty design by the subcontractor Areva. Overheating rods shattered, fell to the bottom and a criticality incident occured and the lid lost air-tightness. Rad was so hard inside the vessel rad-hardened cameras lasted 3 minutes each before burning out. The NPP tried to cover up, but as a radiocative puff of air reached the capital city, an automatic air probe alarm went off at the country's technical university (which has its own little research reactor). Areva paid a bunch of money to the NPP to keep the incident low profile.
See Nuke LaLoosh in Bull Durham.
i'd suggest the self-melting metal test to cast a nice torus!