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Largest Bitcoin Mining Pool Pledges Not To Execute '51% Attack'

An anonymous reader writes "Bitcoin transactions are confirmed by performing complex calculations, also known as 'mining.' If a single mining pool gains 51% of the overall computational power in the network, various forms of transaction manipulation become possible. Only a few years into Bitcoin's existence, this existential threat appears to be at hand, with Bitcoin mining pool ghash.io approaching 51% of mining power. ghash.io has now assured the Bitcoin community in a press release (PDF): 'GHash.IO does not have any intentions to execute a 51% attack, as it will do serious damage to the Bitcoin community, of which we are a part.' But can a network relying on such assurances survive in the long run?"

351 comments

  1. If you're concerned... by egcagrac0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Add more compute power to a different pool.

    1. Re:If you're concerned... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or more cheaply .. don't use/trust bitcoin.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    2. Re:If you're concerned... by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      That's easy to say but decreasingly effective to do. Why should one have to be a miner in order to ensure the stability of the market? That's an externality most people didn't sign up for.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    3. Re:If you're concerned... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that most people are just leeches on the system. It like the average bitcoin user has no idea what kind of infrastructure it takes - or doesn't care - in keeping an independent currency afloat.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    4. Re:If you're concerned... by samkass · · Score: 1

      This attack is not an all-or-nothing thing, either. 51% is just the threshold to be able to guarantee success. Controlling 40% of the mining capacity is enough to be able to double-spend a transaction that's been confirmed 6 times with 50% confidence.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    5. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Bitcoin is decentralized. It is not controlled by a central government. It is secure against manipulation, unlike cash. It's like cash, so if it's in my wallet, there's no way anyone can steal it. Bitcoin is surely going to replace all the fiat paper currency. I can already spend it at overstock.com, purchase a Tesla car, or buy illegal drugs online with it. And it has no impact on the environment, because mining operations are forced to go where electricity is cheapest to be profitable. Who could ask for more?

    6. Re:If you're concerned... by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      Actually most people just pay the tiny voluntary transaction fee....which the miners scoop up. It is actually a massive implementation not only of a digital economy but of a microtransaction based gift economy as transaction costs are voluntary but default so people do actually pay them.

      Last bitcoin transaction I made, I actually double checked the fee.... it worked out to about 50 cents on $100. Seemed quite worth it to me given that paypal would have taken more.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    7. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong, neither 51% nor any other level guarantees success. It's simply a question of the probability that you can be first to find a hash n times in a row, where the probability of being first is the percentage of the mining you control, and n the number of confirmations that are required.

    8. Re:If you're concerned... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Right, I think we need a government body to maintain this so we don't have to worry about things like this. All mining pools should have to pay into some sort of reserve just in case there's a crash... lets call it the "Federal bitcoin reserve" Then they can control how many bitcoins are mined and... oh wait

    9. Re:If you're concerned... by omnichad · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is secure against manipulation

      Did you even read the headline or summary?

    10. Re:If you're concerned... by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sure except for the fact that I don't believe this is actually an accurate description of the 'control' a mining pool actually has. Generally people go get their client and join the pool. This sort of control would require that everyone (or most anyway) who joins the pool uses a specialized client designed specifically to ignore the rules of bitcoin and work on a fraudulent block chain.

      It can't be done by just pooling together people running the normal clients that everyone else uses. Doing it via a pool like this would either mean tricking lots of people, some of whom are technically saavy and have a vested interest in bitcoin prices not being destroyes so the pool owners can cheat...or by having everybody be in on it... either way making it unlikely they would get away with it unnoticed.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    11. Re:If you're concerned... by Immerman · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Going where electricity is cheapest hardly equates to no environmental impact - in fact the cheapest electricity is typically generated from burning coal, which is by far the dirtiest option in terms of toxic waste, in terms of CO2 emissions, and in terms of radioactive waste released into the environment without even attempting to capture it.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    12. Re:If you're concerned... by xorsyst · · Score: 0

      So far it's proven to be more trustworthy than most government-issued currencies. This is the first real threat to trust.

      --
      Get free bitcoins: http://freebitco.in
    13. Re:If you're concerned... by marcosdumay · · Score: 2

      Looks like it's not that much decentralized.

    14. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know if you noticed, but the point here is that there is a group in a position to manipulate bitcoin and the only security against that manipulation is the pledge of that group, an organization that no one outside of the bitcoin community has ever heard of.

      It may or may not impact the environment (my uneducated guess is it may well be more efficient in terms of energy than the portion of traditional financial services it could replace), but that has little to do with whether people use cheap or expensive energy to do the mining.

    15. Re:If you're concerned... by 0p7imu5_P2im3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ironically, the 51% attack is very similar to a phenomenon with the US Dollar that is commonly referred to with the politically correct monicker "Quanitative Easing" and the derogatory, though very applicable, term "bailouts."

      --
      Resistance is futile. Your technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will become one with the morgue
    16. Re:If you're concerned... by neokushan · · Score: 1

      It takes 51% of the network to manipulate bitcoin.

      What % of control do you think regular banking systems have and how much is required to manipulate that?

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    17. Re:If you're concerned... by operagost · · Score: 1, Funny

      But... but... the GOVERNMENT is doing it, so it's OK! You must be one of those Faux News right wing teabaggers!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    18. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From my understanding, it's always the same amount, no matter how much you transfer. So for transferring $100 it is reasonable. For transferring $1, it is expensive. And for transferring $0.01, it gets ridiculously expensive.

      And if the value of Bitcoin goes up, so does the value of the transaction fee. If the value goes up a factor of 10, then for everything below $5, the transaction fee will be larger than the amount transferred.

      So much for using Bitcoin for microtransactions.

    19. Re:If you're concerned... by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't really understand what the problem with quantitative easing is. Inflation is running at record low levels, and beyond that inflation in the 2-5% regime can actually be desirable for us.

    20. Re:If you're concerned... by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      > From my understanding, it's always the same amount, no matter how much you transfer.

      Don't get confused.... the amount defined as the default in the client doesn't change. However, it is a setting. You can, if you like, set it to 0 and pay no fee at all, or you can lower it. Depending on the client this might be a global setting or might be able to be overridden on a per transaction basis. Either way, it is always reconfigurable.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    21. Re:If you're concerned... by larry+bagina · · Score: 2

      Can I use bitcoin to buy tulip futures or pets.com stock options?

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    22. Re:If you're concerned... by jythie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Some people are philosophically against inflation in general, there are also those that believe any planning or manipulation by regulators is inherently bad regardless of the outcome. There are all sorts of pop-economic arguments against quantitative easing, but their root tends to be mostly philosophical in nature.

    23. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, the cheapest electricity is geothermal. That's why the mining operations are going to Iceland. Not that I'm agreeing with his other points.

      Because if we want to talk about truly cheap, that would be a digital currency that anyone could attain through something like a smart phone. Not one that requires thousands of machines running 24/7 consuming megawatts of energy, no matter how cheap, to produce it. It's a niche currency that is still controlled by an elite. Once we reach the super-percentage, once the difficulty becomes burdensome, it then just becomes a plain digital currency with no other benefits.

    24. Re:If you're concerned... by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      What % of control do you think regular banking systems have and how much is required to manipulate that?

      What percentage of banks had to work together to manipulate LIBOR?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    25. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly he didn't. That's the joke.

    26. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You must be new here

    27. Re:If you're concerned... by u38cg · · Score: 5, Informative

      Did you feel the whoosh?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    28. Re:If you're concerned... by omnichad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Somewhere around the ankles. There comes a point when satire is so realistic, the difference hardly matters.

    29. Re:If you're concerned... by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It depends which "us" we're talking about.

      People who should like inflation:
      - People with fixed-rate home mortgages
      - People currently holding gold (not because gold is a great investment - it loses to stocks and real estate - but because fear of inflation drives demand for gold)

      People who shouldn't care much:
      - People who are holding stocks or real estate
      - People living on government programs with automatic cost-of-living adjustments, like Social Security.
      - White collar and unionized workers who get annual raises to offset the effects of inflation.

      People who should oppose inflation:
      - People who have cash stuffed in their mattress
      - People living on fixed nominal incomes (this is fairly rare, but exists)
      - People making minimum wage, but only because Congress hasn't tied increases in the minimum wage to inflation like they should have decades ago.

      But you're right that typically moderate inflation isn't a problem, and in fact the Federal Reserve targets inflation at somewhere around 2% for a whole slew of good reasons.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    30. Re:If you're concerned... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Some people are philosophically against Science, that doesn't mean we should take their viewpoint into consideration when planing scientific things.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    31. Re: If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a mining pool, only the pool operator participates in the coin network using the coin client.

      The individual miner contributors run only stripped down mining software which works on hash ranges sent by the pool operator. There is no transaction validation by individual miners.

      In "solo mining" each miner participates directly with the network, and validates transactions as part of that. The "difficulty" of bitcoin precludes solo mining as the probability of success is so low.

    32. Re:If you're concerned... by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 1

      That is a remarkably well thought out answer and it's nice to not see a one-size-fits-all approach. Thank you!

    33. Re:If you're concerned... by operagost · · Score: 1

      But... but... the GOVERNMENT is doing it, so it's OK! You must be one of those Faux News right wing teabaggers!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    34. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      More trustworthy to who? Personally I know no one who would rather be paid in bitcoin than good old greenbacks.

    35. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      It takes 51% of the network to manipulate bitcoin.

      What % of control do you think regular banking systems have and how much is required to manipulate that?

      Any individual bank? Not very much. Nowhere near 51%. Government, though, do have that control but tend to act in their own self-interest, which is to keep the economy running so that they can continue to collect taxes. See how that works out nicely? No need to trust in altruism.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    36. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      51% of the Board.

    37. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Economics are not coldly scientific, there are many human variables to consider which is one of the underlying tenets of austrian/chicago theory.

    38. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if you noticed, but the point here is that there is a group in a position to manipulate bitcoin and the only security against that manipulation is the pledge of that group, an organization that no one outside of the bitcoin community has ever heard of.

      But their pledge is voluntary and there are no regulations against what they could do. This makes it very different from governments ... much much more trustworthy. Am I right? Huh? Huh?

    39. Re:If you're concerned... by Burz · · Score: 1

      I have been waiting for such an announcement from a mining pool... actually for years now.

      What % of control do you think regular banking systems have and how much is required to manipulate that?

      What percentage of banks had to work together to manipulate LIBOR?

      I don't know, but its probably much larger than the percentage of banks required to allocate 51% of computing resources for Bitcoin.

      Even if its significantly larger, such a goal is still easily within reach of the Finance sector or any cartel therein. The Bitcoin concept of trust only works if smallholders are forced to get mining hardware and contribute to mining; This keeps establishment players and their politics from taking hold over the currency and manipulating it.

      Good luck with that.

    40. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Philosophical in nature... Just like the benefits of inflation,. They've been preaching it for many many years now, but there's no real evidence that inflation has the effects that they claim.. The theory is that to keep people from saving their money, their money should lose value over time. When people spend instead of save, it helps boost the economy. It's amusing that we're often taught be our parents, teachers etc, that we should save our money, and then the government goes to great efforts to keep us from doing that.

      The worry is that in a deflationary economy, people will sit on their money because it's going to be worth more later, and the lack of spending stalls the economy. In practice with Bitcoin, the opposite has clearly been true. Retailers report sales increases as the price rises, not the other way around.

    41. Re:If you're concerned... by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      It doesn't take much to beat the US government when it comes to trusting it to not manipulate the currency: http://dollardaze.org/blog/pages/00024/usd.png

      Not that I think Bitcoin is the solution, cause I don't. I think egold made more sense but the US through that guy in prison.

    42. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      truly cheap currency would be generated by farts from magical, sparkly unicorns

    43. Re:If you're concerned... by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      First there are the hard money types. Rare among economist today, but common in the Gold Bug and BitCoin world. Mostly it is philosophical or based on the assumption that the disadvantages of hard money outweigh the risks of fiat money – the primary risk is that the government will turn on the printing press like Germany did in the 1920s.

      Then there are the inflation hawks, which I belong to. Here the question is on getting out of quantitative easing, which has to be stopped at some time.
                The threat of stopping triggers a contraction in economic activity because it is addictive to cheap credit.

                Quantitative easing tends to lower interest rates, which encourages greater leverage, which promotes asset bubbles.

                Inflation begets more inflation. Once it starts it takes harsh medicine to stop – namely much higher real interest rates.

                When the fed pours money into the economy it takes about 6 to 18 months for that money to cause inflation and another 6 to 18 months to show up in the official numbers. So by the we know that there is inflation it is too late.

      And FYI, inflation is not running at record low levels. Low levels – yes. Dangerously low – I think so. (I fear long term deflation, and have posted on this before.)

    44. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This can be simplified.

      People who should like inflation:
      Those with first access to money.

      People who should oppose inflation:
      Everyone else.

      If you think 2% is moderate inflation, you don't understand exponentials. The only way to honestly attain a stated mandate of "stable prices" is to target 0% inflation.

    45. Re: If you're concerned... by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      Odd, especially since it would be trivial for the mining client to do a double check. In fact, all it needs to do is to track the current block chain length and last block hash, which has to be the same as the one in the header of whatever block you are currently working on, whether it is in a pool or not.

      If the client just kept track of that, cheating should be impossible for the pool admins.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    46. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those people are known as idiots.

    47. Re:If you're concerned... by NouberNou · · Score: 1

      Except that school of thought uses a Utopian idealism for the human variable and not a single ounce of historical evidence... So again its a dogmatic approach to something that can be quantified in many ways.

    48. Re:If you're concerned... by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      I think you missed a point. Deflation favors financial assets (cash, bonds, gold) over real assets (real estate, stocks, human capital, etc.). So the economic scales are tipper towards those who have financial assets (wealthy, banks, retired people who hold lots of bonds) and away from long term risk (or at least risker then cash) assets and investments.

    49. Re:If you're concerned... by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      LIBOR is the average number form 18 banks with the top and low ends dropped. The LIBOR scandal was about 1. Bankers pushing LIBOR a fraction of a percentage one way or another because they had placed big bets or 2. Or outright lying to make themselves look better. (A higher than average LIBOR implies you bank is higher risk, which can trigger higher funding costs or a bank run.). In this case they are not intending to game LIBOR – just a side effect.

    50. Re: If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, the cheapest electricity is what you don't pay for but instead "borrow" from others. You know, from malware and what not.

      It's not the fastest, but it's certainly the cheapest.

    51. Re:If you're concerned... by tftp · · Score: 1

      Last bitcoin transaction I made, I actually double checked the fee.... it worked out to about 50 cents on $100. Seemed quite worth it to me given that paypal would have taken more.

      A transaction fee of 0.5% is insanely high. All the money will be lost - paid to owners of the BTC network - after only 200 transactions.

    52. Re:If you're concerned... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      For unicorns to make magical farts, they need to eat diamonds - aka fairy dust.
      Not cheap at all.

    53. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Poe's Law strikes again

    54. Re:If you're concerned... by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Yah, I probably should have lowered it, again, it is an optional and voluntary fee. Still compared to transfering $100 through other means, not terrible. I may be more generous than I need to be sometimes, that doesn't really bother me.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    55. Re:If you're concerned... by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      A zero rate of inflation – or even a constant rate of inflation – is theoretically impossible. Those who have implemented it have destroyed their economies.

      High inflation has a positive feedback which leads to higher even higher inflation. Variable inflation make planning, and thus longer term investing, harder. Deflation transfers wealth of future investments to the wealthy.

      Process of elimination leaves us with one obvious choice – target inflation to be in a low, narrow range.

      Fortunately I live in the US, which like most developed countries, where nobody has “first access to money”, so I don’t have to contend with that issue. And by money I assume you mean currency which, of course, is very different then money.

    56. Re:If you're concerned... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      The bank can't stop you using cash to pay for something.
      Someone who controls 51% of the bitcoin network can stop your transactions

    57. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of those good reasons for inflation is to prevent people from hoarding. Instead of keeping all your money in a big safe at home and using it as a swimming pool like Scrooge McDuck, you have to invest it unless you want all that money to lose a little bit of value every day. This helps grow the economy.

    58. Re:If you're concerned... by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

      You don't understand what quantitative easing is, do you?

      Quantitative easing is the central bank buying certain securities (long-term government bonds and mortgage-backed securities). It buys less than one percent of the outstanding value of these securities each month. This isn't an "attack" on the functioning of the US dollar. It isn't even close. It's just an attempt to keep inflation stable at the margins by slightly reducing long-term interest rates.

      Also, the bank bailouts aren't even remotely related to a 51% attack. They are problematic for entirely different reasons (mostly moral hazard), and Bitcoin is certainly not immune to the exact same kind of problem (if Bitcoin was ever trusted enough for people to start lending Bitcoins, that is).

    59. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Add more compute power to a different pool.

      Or use a digital currency that does have the same non-sense about it needed millions in electricity to secure it. Timekoin is a good example of a digital currency system done right from the start.

    60. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't forget OkCupid dating and Zynga Farmville accepts bitcoin, which I think we can all agree are just a tad more important to the general public than the elitist's Tesla.

    61. Re:If you're concerned... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      There aren't any rational arguments against any inflation what-so-ever. If you are philosophically against it, I don't think policy makers should consider that a valid opinion on economic matters. It implies a lack of understanding on wealth generation in modern economies.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    62. Re:If you're concerned... by Bramlet+Abercrombie · · Score: 0

      HAHA, you think the value of bitcoin is going to go down. Good luck with that bagholder! Enjoy watching the rest of us get filthy rich off your clueless grandchildren buying high and selling low.

    63. Re:If you're concerned... by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      You do realize that all of that "easing" isn't making it's way to the average citizen. It's shoring up asset values, driving the stock market higher, reinflating the bubble that popped.

    64. Re:If you're concerned... by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      It's only been around a few years and it's reaching acceptance. Look at the trajectory, and evaluate where it's headed. Do you have any evidence to support the proposition that it has come this far, but that it will go no further?

      --
      I hate printers.
    65. Re:If you're concerned... by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      that's called being a scoffer, cranky, and losing what makes you young.
      Not to be critical. Us nerds are so self critical because everyone else is, it really hurts you long term. You turn cranky and skeptical of everything. Nothing is fun anymore.

    66. Re:If you're concerned... by trout007 · · Score: 1

      The big thing you are missing is that it's not like the money is magically given out to everyone. It is given to the politically connected who get to spend it first. This is mostly financail companies and the military industry. So the new money acts like a giant wealth transfer to these areas. This is why Wall St is doing so well while the rest of the country is stuck in a depression.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    67. Re:If you're concerned... by Jookey · · Score: 1

      I make it even simpler: People who should like inflation: -People who owe money (at a fixed interest rate) People who should oppose inflation: -People who have lent money (at a fixed interest rate)

    68. Re:If you're concerned... by pellik · · Score: 1

      Fairy dust is also another name for PCP, which when consumed by Unicorns does produce some magic.

    69. Re:If you're concerned... by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      No, the cheapest electricity is geothermal.

      Depends on whose estimates you're looking at, and what country. DOE claims Natural Gas is much cheaper, when you look at 30-years costs including the cost of the power plants. Solar and off-shore wind are ridiculously expensive.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#US_Department_of_Energy_estimates
      http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/er/electricity_generation.cfm

    70. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't really understand what the problem with quantitative easing is. Inflation is running at record low levels, and beyond that inflation in the 2-5% regime can actually be desirable for us.

      and devaluing the hell out of the US dollar in comparison to every other world currency isn't bad?

    71. Re:If you're concerned... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Aren't they all using distributed malware to make coins these days?

    72. Re:If you're concerned... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Pyramid schemes are not supposed to be fun.
      Does Soulskill post anything other than bitcoin stuff? There seems to be one nearly every day.

    73. Re:If you're concerned... by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      A zero rate of inflation – or even a constant rate of inflation – is theoretically impossible. Those who have implemented it have destroyed their economies.

      Where do people get this crap? Inflation in Switzerland has routinely touched zero had periods below zero (i.e. deflation) in recent times. Switzerland is one of the worlds wealthiest countries.

      But you don't have to take my word for it. Professional economists have studied the link between deflation and depression and found it does not exist.

      Fortunately I live in the US, which like most developed countries, where nobody has “first access to money”, so I don’t have to contend with that issue. And by money I assume you mean currency which, of course, is very different then money.

      I think you'll find semantic distinctions between money and currency are pointless for anything except confusing people and making you feel like you won debates when actually you lost. Of course there are people who get first access to money in the USA - banks do, when they write it into your account and charge you interest for the privilege.

    74. Re:If you're concerned... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Government, though, do have that control but tend to act in their own self-interest, which is to keep the economy running so that they can continue to collect taxes. See how that works out nicely? No need to trust in altruism.

      Actually, you still need to trust that each individual Government member puts the good of the Goverment as a whole above their personal interests, which usually revolve around tilting the playing field in favour of their backers. Sure, if they all do so all the time the whole house of cards will collapse, but every single politician is better served by defecting and hoping the others won't. It's classic tragedy of the commons at work, and the government doesn't have any higher governing body to enforce cooperation, so that leaves altruism as the only viable alternative, feeble as it might be; US politicians lack it, thus the total dysfunction of its political system.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    75. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't yet use it to buy the medical marijuana you're obviously smoking, along with crack.

    76. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i call bs on the inflation number. maybe inflation is this low for the 1%, but my groceries went up al lot more than this.

    77. Re:If you're concerned... by andrepd · · Score: 1

      Sure. For a userbase so keen on protecting freedoms and fighting mass surveillance and government control, fighting for silly gun rights that the big govt is trying to take you and all, you seem way to ready to take the piss out of bitcoin, and to keep holding on to fiat. I just don't get the hate.

    78. Re:If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People living on fixed nominal incomes (this is fairly rare, but exists)

      Rare? Ever hear of a retiree?

    79. Re:If you're concerned... by 0p7imu5_P2im3 · · Score: 1

      If all the money that has been given to banks in Quantitative Easing had instead been given to those who were receiving forclosure notices, the bubble would not have burst so detrimentally and the economy would be more stable for the common man today. The simple fact is: Quantitative Easing is a method for the banks to keep the money in the banks and out of the hands of the people.

      Now explain to me how that is a right wing point of view...

      --
      Resistance is futile. Your technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will become one with the morgue
    80. Re:If you're concerned... by 0p7imu5_P2im3 · · Score: 1

      If all the money that has been given to banks in Quantitative Easing had instead been given to those who were receiving forclosure notices, the bubble would not have burst so detrimentally and the economy would be more stable for the common man today.

      The simple fact is: Quantitative Easing is a method for the banks to keep the money in the banks and out of the hands of the people.

      --
      Resistance is futile. Your technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will become one with the morgue
    81. Re:If you're concerned... by JamieIanMacgregor · · Score: 1

      Close, that would be 'angel dust' and just think of all the poor angels who will be murdered for their dust just to feed to unicorns.

    82. Re: If you're concerned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      QE devalues the dollar which is better for US exports, however, dollars are used internationally for trading stocks and shares. This means that the monitory value of dollars held by foreign governments and individuals decreases which makes said parties look to sell their dollars in favour (yes I spelled that correctly) of more stable investments. It also means that alternatives to trading in dollars is sought.

      Both these points harm the currency and what normally follows is another round if QE. The downwards spiral has reached a point to which the dollar is "fucked" and can never recover

  2. Military by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Military should launch a premptive attack on them, to prevent it.

    1. Re:Military by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always thought the Military should not be sent overseas to fight pointless wars. They should be sent to the ghetto to eradicate the gangsta plague by any means necessary. Black gangstas, white gangstas, latino gangstas, anybody who thinks being a street thug is cool, get them all.

    2. Re:Military by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, have you read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution lately? No? I think you need to because your "idea" is a known bad one, fully rejected by our founding fathers.

  3. A promise only goes so far by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

    Ideally, miners should be responsible and move to another pool to avoid the 51% attack possibility. Being part of a possible exploit when shit hits the fan will hurt their bottom line more than being part of the biggest pool will gain them

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    1. Re:A promise only goes so far by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also, you could just as easily read this the opposite way: "Nice cryptocurrency you have there. It would be a real shame if we got to the point where we could completely control its value in other currencies and reap huge profits while doing so. Not that we'd ever dream of doing that - we promise that we're not even really considering the possibility."

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    2. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the contrary, it would be in your individual best interest as a miner to get into the pool with the 51% attack capability, so that you could benefit from the market manipulation. Otherwise you're just one of the suckers.

    3. Re:A promise only goes so far by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 2

      They can't completely control its value, all they can do is leave it alone or destroy its value completely. The price is controlled by the individuals buying and selling bitcoins.

    4. Re:A promise only goes so far by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Except it is only a perception. How would they pull off such an attack unless the majority of the pool was running a hacked client that specifically ignored the rules? I have mined in a pool (briefly back before ASICs) and the pool doesn't actually have the kind of control over its members, who download their own software and set it up...and then join the pool.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    5. Re:A promise only goes so far by Nukenbar · · Score: 2, Informative

      If they were serious about this, Why not fork into two separate pools?

    6. Re:A promise only goes so far by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Sorry but being a smart miner you will avoid the situation when 51% becomes possible. The moment it is, market plummets and all your hard-mined and double-spent bitcoins become worthless. In essence, 51% is not "earn a lot of money" attack, it's a "murder the network" attack. Miners don't want the network murdered.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    7. Re:A promise only goes so far by jythie · · Score: 1

      Heh. Welcome to game theory.... smart is actually usually pretty irrational and tends to be punished.

    8. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indeed, the price took a bit of a dip on news that GHash was getting close-ish to 51%. Not that it made it to 51%, or that they used that majority to actually do something, but just that they were sort of close to being able to hypothetically do something bad if they wanted to.

    9. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They can't completely control its value, all they can do is leave it alone or destroy its value completely.

      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
        -- Paul Atreides (aka Muad'dib)

    10. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that if that organization might have control and wouldn't do anything... someone who subverts them likely would.

      Lets be real here: Someone has that much control that they control whose coins are accepted and whose are not are going to be a BIG target for criminal organizations, governments, intel agencies, and companies in general. With that much firepower wanting to gain control of BTC, with groups willing to do anything (including sending physical "representatives" to accomplish a task), it is only a matter of time before that 51% ends up belonging to someone else... and trust me, there are a lot of people who will spend a lot in order to gain control of BitCoin, and being the guy who says "yep" and "nope" to valid coins is something that someone would spend billions of dollars in hopes of attaining.

      I wouldn't be surprised if BitCoin has fallen into the hands of the same people who have a stranglehold on ordinary currencies. It if takes 51%, that can be bought or coerced with ease.

    11. Re:A promise only goes so far by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      --
      -
    12. Re:A promise only goes so far by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      That's the thing though, this 51% pool is made up of a bunch of individuals. Getting them all to go along with your scheme would be difficult wouldn't it??

    13. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tragedy of the commons. If you're not gonna decrease the number of cows grazing communal fields, why should I? It's actually RATIONAL to not do it.

    14. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two identical pools - do you pick the one with more variance or less variance? A fork would just converge on a single pool again.

    15. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can't completely control its value, all they can do is leave it alone or destroy its value completely.

      Uhhh, you contradicted yourself their chum. Being able to destroy its value completely is complete control.

    16. Re:A promise only goes so far by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      > How would they pull off such an attack

      Pools issue only the "Merkle root" of the transactions in the block - effectively the header, which the individual miners then search for a sufficiently low hash for. The pool operator can insert transactions into the block and the miners would not know.

      Part of the reason to use the Merkle root is that is independent of the number of transactions. Otherwise hashing would slow down as the network carried more transactions, you have a bigger block of data to pass around to the miners, and for them to crunch hash attempts on. You can see the Merkle root on the list of hashes of a recent block: https://blockchain.info/block-index/457566/000000000000000047665cb7d4db93f66bbdd969f42578588363e8e77e22e31f

      http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10479/what-is-the-merkle-root

    17. Re:A promise only goes so far by lennier · · Score: 1

      Ideally, miners should be responsible and move to another pool to avoid the 51% attack possibility.

      Ah, so exactly like how large corporations don't ever try to destroy their competitors, industries never injure the environment, financial bubbles don't form, and organised crime simply doesn't exist, Bitcoin miners can always be counted on to altruistically pass up an opportunity for massive temporary personal gain in order to enrich the wider community?

      I like this principled Libertarian machine you've built here.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    18. Re:A promise only goes so far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Muad'dib is an idiot"

      - Superman

    19. Re:A promise only goes so far by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      In this case, Bitcoin miners wouldn't be the beneficiaries of such an attack - they only provide the manpower, but the pool owner would be the sole beneficiary.

      The miners don't really stand to win anything by contributing to a 50%+1 pool, and actually stand a lot to lose, because the moment a first double spending attack is successfully carried out by such a pool, BTC value will drop like a rock.

    20. Re:A promise only goes so far by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      it should be an addition to the bitcoin protocol. No transactions valid when >25% of aggregate hashing in one pool.

      But it's good to have some controlling interest. Couple of in control parties provide direction and support to the price level.

    21. Re:A promise only goes so far by dbIII · · Score: 1

      All it takes is a massively distributed "miner" as malware payload and whoever does it can claim that 51%.
      Some of the existing malware based "miners" may already make up a large portion of the bitcoin ecosystem.

    22. Re:A promise only goes so far by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Luckily, in this game the pasture is calculated in such a way, that the moment you introduce more cows than all neighbors combined, all cows die, including your own, and another neighbor introducing yet another cow actually improves the quality of the pasture.

      Note this is not a blind theory. People who manufacture ASIC devices *sell* them for bitcoin already. They *could* run them themselves and would probably earn more BTC. But as result they would weaken bitcoin and the earned BTC would get cheaper in the long run! In essence, they take care so that the computational power is distributed.

      Dumb miners *could* theoretically screw up like that. But achieving 51% is a very difficult task. To achieve 51% you need to be pretty smart - probably smart enough to understand achieving 51% would be self-destructive.

      One exception: an institution bound on destroying bitcoin - say, the World Bank - could do this, precisely in order to destroy it.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  4. so much for decentralization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ^^^^^^^

  5. Cant be worse by butchersong · · Score: 2

    They can't act much worse than the traditional large financial institutions. Not sure how this makes bitcoin that much less reliable than stocks, the US dollar or the EURO

    1. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The US government makes no such promise, and investors know it. Slow, long-term inflation is part of the instability prevention plans of most currency issuing nations.

    2. Re:Cant be worse by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      Yes, well, insofar as the US Government promises not to substantially manipulate the dollar, the dollar is stable. Insofar as they don't, the value of the dollar falls relative to other, more trustworthy currencies (and commodities) and people demand higher interest for government bonds, loans, and similar instruments, to compensate for the decaying value of the dollar.

      (Of course, some "manipulation" is necessary to match fluctuations in the overall state of the economy and achieve a stable dollar. But even in ancient economies with commodity money, persistent deflation and monetary shocks were reasonably common.)

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    3. Re:Cant be worse by unimacs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Theoretically at least, the US Government has to answer to its citizens and there are a couple hundred million of us. Further, even though the US is a "super power", there are still serious consequences for mucking with the dollar too much.

      Who does GHash.IO answer to?

    4. Re:Cant be worse by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's utterly backwards.

      The US dollar works because the Federal Reserve promises to manipulate it.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    5. Re:Cant be worse by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      My understanding, is that Deflation benefits those that acquire assets, in so much as "a penny saved, is a penny earned". Right now, saving money is a fool's game, as a "Dollar saved is .98 in a year". Inflation is a hidden tax on savings, pure and simple. Inflation is what allows a country to deficit spend indefinitely, because inflation helps remove the value of today and replace it with the value of tomorrow. It is also the danger of deficit spending, and centralized currency (like the USD), as the temptation to hyper inflate currency rises with the debt increases.

      And I personally don't put it past the current (D) and (R) parties to collude long enough to screw the people by turning on the faucet with something like "Quantitative Easing" ... oh wait ...

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    6. Re:Cant be worse by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      More importantly, the government has to answer to the people who hold the money. Fiat currency (or, as normal people call it, "money") has two things going for it: 1. The issuing government has tight control over it; 2. The government has strong incentives to keep the currency stable. Yeah, it's a sketchy system, but it has a much better track record than Bitcoin.

    7. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I wish people who didn't understand basic economics wouldn't post like they did.

      Deflation makes an item worth $1000, worth $990 later. It hurts people with assets. However, if you have cash, that same amount of cash will buy more as deflation continues. Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow and inventory in shops is a bad thing because you pay interest on holding it while it reduces in value.

      Inflation does not allow a country to deficit spend forever. Inflation allows paying off debt at a future time cheaper only if you ignore the interest on the debt. Usually interest on debt is higher than inflation, so that doesn't work.
      What you were attempting to say is a fiat currency can never go bankrupt. If they country cannot pay debt they can print money until they can pay debt, that is the cause of hyper-inflation.

      Please stop posting explanations of things that you don't understand.

    8. Re:Cant be worse by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1
      Inflation is like a tax on accounts denominated in dollar amounts, it's true. However, you'll also note that inflation in the US is relatively steady since the 1980s when Volcker took over. That's why the US dollar is relatively steady right now - unlike in 1981, when inflation was 13.5% . The dollar is trusted as far as it proves trustworthy.

      But you can still get monetary shocks even if you don't depend on fiat currency: read up on the inflationary consequences of the gold rush of 1849 on the (gold-backed) money supply: "Soaring gold output from the California and Australia gold rushes is linked with a thirty percent increase in wholesale prices between 1850 and 1855."

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    9. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Serious consequences? LOL. The Federal Reserve manipulates the dollar. They loaned out TRILLIONS from "thin air" not so long ago - and they even initially refused to say who they lent them to. Google for federal reserve trillions if you don't believe me. Sure they are trillions in loans that were supposedly paid back, but when you loan others trillions from "thin air" interest free you are creating billions. Even a financial fool like me can make money from large interest free loans.

      And on a related note, the petrodollar (google that) is a great advantage to the USA. The USA has a big advantage as long as everyone else keeps using the US dollar. When US dollars are created, everyone who owns positive amounts of the US dollar becomes POORER. And almost everyone uses it to buy oil, CPUs, wheat, software, etc. So basically the USA can tax the rest of the world at will. The USA owes Japan, China etc trillions in US dollars that the USA can create. Only idiots believe the USA is screwed because it owes China trillions in US dollars. Who is screwed if Uncle Sam owes his neighbor 2 trillion Uncle Sam tokens that he can create by entering digits on his computer?

      It's like Zimbabwe - where Mugabe creates Zimbabwe dollars and transfers wealth from the rest of Zimbabwe to himself and his cronies. Everyone else laughed at Zimbabwe.

      In the past a fair bit of that created US dollars flowed down to the US people- directly or indirectly via large projects (e.g. highways). The US people were the "cronies" of the US Gov. And the rest of the world were stuck in the USA's Zimbabwe, needing US dollars to by oil from OPEC and weren't laughing at the exported inflation.

      The 300 or so million US people should wake up and pay better attention to what is going on and what is actually happening. Then ask themselves whether they are still cronies of the US Gov, or they have been supplanted by others. How much of the created US dollars are going to them? How much are going to others?

      If too many move to euros, gold or even Bitcoin the USA will lose its advantage over the rest of the world.

    10. Re:Cant be worse by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 1

      I don't know why this is considered controversial. Small amounts of inflation can actually be desirable. What other "manipulations" are people ACTUALLY worried about the US government doing?

    11. Re:Cant be worse by Richy_T · · Score: 0

      Small amounts of inflation can actually be desirable.

      That's what they tell you. As they devalue your wealth by printing money and giving it to their friends.

    12. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You've got 3 schools of criticism there. In order of frequency,
      A. Vaguely conspiratorial accusations centering around the fed and/or federal government(but never states, oddly) that are completely unhelpful. Typical quote: "Quantitative easing is stealing money"
      B. Austrian school whining about Chicago school being the de facto source of understanding. Typical quote: "But our assumptions say all regulation is bad."
      C. Actual scholars and sane economists highly detailed concerns about specific courses of action within one department they're familiar with, that usually reflect incremental improvements on economic planning. Typical quote: [actually the media never covers this sort of thing, except, oddly, the Volcker rule]

    13. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      And we have a little bit of column A from my post below as real-world sample.

    14. Re:Cant be worse by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 1

      If you want inflation protected 100% guarranteed savings, buy the inflation protected T-bonds. I maintain my savings in mutual fund and stock accounts, with only enough liquid assets for a 3 month long emergency fund. I have a mortgage, my wife has student and car loans. We are middle class with a normal amount of debt. Inflation decreases the size of our debt over time, while having no impact on salary or savings. So considering a typical inflation that's 5%, or more normally way less, what's the problem again?

    15. Re:Cant be worse by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 1

      Wow, thank you. That matches pretty well my own understanding, and it's nice to see a good familiarity of the counter arguments (eg Chicago school and Austrian).

    16. Re:Cant be worse by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most people don't have significant amounts of wealth stored as piles of green paper. Your home, your shares, your land, etc, are not "devalued" in any way, shape, or form by inflation.

      Do you know, however, what most people have that is devalued by inflation? Debt.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    17. Re:Cant be worse by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      Yes, indeed: depending on who you believe you could believe in a bias in either direction. :P

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    18. Re:Cant be worse by dpidcoe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Theoretically at least, the US Government has to answer to its citizens

      ahahahahahahahahahha

    19. Re:Cant be worse by unimacs · · Score: 1

      "The USA has a big advantage as long as everyone else keeps using the US dollar."

      You've basically proven my point. The US dollar has been used world wide for such a long time because it is a relatively stable currency. Yes, the Federal Reserve manipulates the dollar but it does so knowing there are consequences.

      Mass change to other currencies would have dire consequences for the US and so there is an incentive or "check" if you will, to behave. You don't recall all the freaking out that was going on a few months ago over the thought that the US might not make payments on its loans?

      So again, I ask what keeps GHash.IO in line?

    20. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      Oops, it looks like your agreeing politely with another poster on the internet is "flamebait." I mean, I try not to get too tied up in how people moderate me, but there really is a kind of paranoid delusion of oppression from people in column A, that they fight with whatever power they happen to have.

    21. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But hyper inflation is not bankruptcy. OP is correct.

      Incidentally all currency is fiat, even bitcoin. The only difference is that with bitcoin the users are the ones that say it has value. Color me skeptical, but I'd trust any government over a bunch of greasy neck beards.

    22. Re:Cant be worse by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      Usually interest on debt is higher than inflation, so that doesn't work.

      Usually.

      But that's not true right now and hasn't been since about mid-to late 2010. http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2011/11/negative-real-interest-rates.html

      The US government can essentially borrow for free right now because the stability of the US dollar makes the US a safe place to store your money. Hence the reason why the government has so many foreign lenders.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    23. Re:Cant be worse by Laxori666 · · Score: 0

      Oh boy, deflation sure is bad! I just hate it when things get cheaper. ::shakes head::

      I can't believe it's still considered informative to say "Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow". Consider the price of computers. Computers always, always get way cheaper and way more powerful over time. If what you said is true, then this would be BAD because SMART people would not buy computers, since it'll always be cheaper tomorrow. Yet what actually happens? People but craptons of computers all the time. Yes, the fact that they get cheaper and better over time factors into it. You use that to make an informed decision as to when to buy a computer.

      Inflation and deflation are confused terms because they've come to mean two different things: 1) increase or decrease in money supply, and 2) increase or decrease in prices. While a change in money supply does generally affect prices, they are not the same thing. Many factors contribute to a price, including supply and demand.

      The fact is that prices going down is *not* in and of itself a bad thing. This is what you want - it generally means the economy is getting more and more efficient and that the wealth of the nation is increasing. As time goes on, in a free market, generally the quality of goods will increase and the prices will go down. The only time this doesn't happen is when there's regulation or when the government increases the money supply. And the fact is, the government increasing the money supply is just a very stealthy tax, a way to devalue the currency that everybody holds, which is a form of stealing. It also makes the economy less efficient in general as the effect of an increased money supply on prices is not uniform and it takes time for people to adjust to the new value of the currency. All in all it's just an awful thing and a way to allow the government to spend way more than the people would willingly pay for via taxes.

    24. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but this is simply not true. It doesn't hurt people with assets because assets maintain their value regardless of their nominal dollar price. Sure, maybe if you put your money into an asset with no real growth, you are forgoing the potential gain of keeping your money in cash.... but who the hell would put their money into such an asset class unless for the explicit purpose of maintaining value??

    25. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually smart people buy when things are available at a discount, not when things are at record prices. Not many smart people lost their homes to foreclosure during the housing crisis.

    26. Re:Cant be worse by satuon · · Score: 1

      Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow.

      That's not the half of it. The real problem is that food also starts getting cheaper, which will cause SMART people to stop buying food, eventually dying from starvation.

    27. Re:Cant be worse by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      That's what interest is for. Ideally, the (numeric) amount you owe rises along with the (numeric) amount the lender lost by letting you use their assets for the duration of the loan. In a perfect zero-sum deal, a borrower could take out a loan, invest the cash with inflation-only return, then repay their whole debt with no net transfer of value.

      In practice, the interest rate also includes a factor for the lender's assumed risk that you'll default, and a factor for overhead costs, but the bulk of the interest is still covering inflation.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    28. Re:Cant be worse by Laxori666 · · Score: 1

      Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow.

      That's not the half of it. The real problem is that food also starts getting cheaper, which will cause SMART people to stop buying food, eventually dying from starvation.

      Hahahah. Good catch! I missed that one.

    29. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Food is not an asset.

    30. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Well, that does require some basic understanding of the financial tools involved. I could see a serious argument from a behavioralist perspective that that's wrong. But I'd be incredulous of any such argument.

    31. Re:Cant be worse by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I can't believe it's still considered informative to say "Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow". Consider the price of computers.

      Consider the price of a house, which is one of the largest purchases most people will consider in their lifetimes. You're absolutely right that when you're talking about an industrial product, gradually lowering the price is often useful and represents more economic efficiency in the process.

      Deflation is great for single products -- but here we're talking about deflation in the economy as a whole. That means that your wages are likely to go down too, as prices go down. It's not like you magically get to keep getting raises as prices go down, or even likely that businesses will be able to keep affording paying you want you do get. So you won't really be able to take advantage of those falling prices, since you'll bhe getting less and less in your paycheck too.

      And talking about durable goods and property is a different story. Why would anyone except rich people with money to burn ever buy property or a house? With deflation going on, mortgages and loans are a TERRIBLE thing, since the principal owed stays the same as value goes down and your salary goes down. Meanwhile, your mortgage payment stays the same, so your loan costs more and more and more. To avoid loans, your average person would have to save for many years, maybe decades, to buy a house outright ... only to -- wait for it -- depreciate like mad. Or, stupid people might still take out loans and all end up instantly underwater.

      I can hear your response now: "But wait, people buy cars, and they rapidly depreciate!" Yes, but cars are treated as disposable for most people -- they expect to buy another one in a decade or so anyway. AND most people spend maybe 10 times or more on a house than they would on a car. It's a significant portion of a life's savings to buy a house. Nobody wants to save all that up just to throw it into something that's instantly going to start losing value... particularly as wages are plummeting due to deflation.

      So, the real estate market collapses. Your wages are going in the toilet. But we're just getting started.

      The fact is that prices going down is *not* in and of itself a bad thing. This is what you want - it generally means the economy is getting more and more efficient and that the wealth of the nation is increasing. As time goes on, in a free market, generally the quality of goods will increase and the prices will go down.

      Yeah, I think you don't really understand what real deflation is. You think it's just increasing economic inefficiencies to introduce lower prices for some small subsets of goods. REAL deflation is pervasive in the economy and causes all sorts of values to drop everywhere -- wages, property values, etc. You won't be able to take advantage of those magical lower prices, because your salary is being "made more efficient" as well. Want to take out a home equity loan when disaster strikes? Oh, well, your house is only worth 25% of what it once was, and your loan principal will immediately start to increase in its percentage of your paycheck each year.

      Meanwhile, without loans being made, capital available for investments and business starts begins to dry up. Most of the money in the economy is not just the actual "cash" the government releases, but all of the various "money" "created" by loans and investments using other people's money. That's what drives the economy to innovate and try out new things.

      Innovation decreases, because investors don't want to take a chance unless it's a "sure thing." When the 1% stops spending, disaster really begins. Businesses are even more prone to downsize than they are today -- no one ever wants to risk having to borrow money. Eventually, if unchecked, it can lead to a deflationary spiral, which is just as bad an economic disaster as an i

    32. Re:Cant be worse by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that those criticism actually believe what they say. I don't think that's the case. I think there is also a large group that sees the first two groups as a money making opportunity and parrots the criticism in various money making schemes.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    33. Re:Cant be worse by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      Regulation is often a money making scheme and experts can massage data to come to any conclusion they wish.

    34. Re:Cant be worse by Laxori666 · · Score: 1

      You're conflating prices for value. What really matters in terms of economic wealth is purchasing power - what one dollar can buy you. If today $1 buys you one hotdog and your salary is $10/hour, yet a year from now $1 buys you two hotdogs yet your salary is $7.50/hour, your salary has gone "down", yet your purchasing power has actually increased (assuming hotdogs are the only product in this small example). It doesn't matter what the absolute number of your wage is, what matters is your purchasing power.

      Your reasoning that deflation is good for single products, but not the economy as a whole, doesn't hold. The economy is made up of an aggregate of single products. If all products suddenly become twice as cheap to produce, and the prices are all halved, the result isn't a poorer economy - it's an economy in which everybody can buy twice as much stuff as before. The companies that produce those products won't suddenly be unable to afford to pay their employees less - the goods were cheaper to produce, which is why they were able to lower prices in the first place. And they would lower their prices, in order to undercut the competition and get more sales, and since all companies would do this eventually a new equilibrium would be reached.

      Further confusing the issue is that people expect to get raises now to "keep up with inflation". This doesn't mean people are actually getting more purchasing power - it means that in order to maintain the same exact purchasing power, they now need more nominal dollars. In a stable economy - neither inflationary nor deflationary - the same effect would be achieved by not changing salaries. In a deflationary economy, the same effect would be achieved by lowering salaries. But this lower salary doesn't mean you are poorer, it means you have the same purchasing power as before. Further, people generally do get raises above and beyond inflation as they become more productive or valuable to the company, so this does not mean their salaries would necessarily decrease in a deflationary economy.

      You are also confused about loans in that the interest rate for a loan does take into account the inflation rate. In a deflationary economy, the same considerations would be made.

      What a deflationary economy means is generally that the same amount of dollars purchases more goods, or alternatively that a lower amount of dollars purchases the same amount of goods. This doesn't mean your house will instantly start depreciating. If your house has exactly as much *value* as before, and the dollar gets stronger and stronger, then yes, the price will go down. But that's not depreciation, that's keeping the value constant. If the price of your house increases over time at the same rate as inflation, it doesn't mean it is becoming more valuable - it means its value is remaining exactly the same, but the dollar amount is larger.

      Contrary to what you claim about investments drying up, just the opposite would happen in a deflationary economy. Saving would be greatly rewarded, since the value of your money would go up even if you just keep it in a mattress somewhere. Savings are what drive investments - an investment is basically taking a bunch of savings and applying it with the hope of making more money. As people save more, more money would become available for investments, the interest rates would go down, and when the price of money - the interest rate - is right, people would take out loans in order to start new businesses or help build their existing businesses.

    35. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if meat is dropping by 25 cents a pound each day, you going to go buy a three months supply, or just enough for tonight's dinner and buy tomorrow's tomorrow?
      And with the drop in demand, how much is your supermarket going to keep on the shelves?

      Like I said before, I wish people who didn't understand BASIC economics would stop pretending they are experts.

    36. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oops, it looks like your agreeing politely with another poster on the internet is "flamebait." I mean, I try not to get too tied up in how people moderate me, but there really is a kind of paranoid delusion of oppression from people in column A, that they fight with whatever power they happen to have.

      Yah...it's all about you, dude.

    37. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just wonder how long this bubble can last. The one thing propping up the US dollar is the fact that oil is traded in it. Should China get their way and it move to a basket system, then hello, Zimbabwe when it comes to currency stability.

      Problem is that the investments out there suck. Stock is overvalued by orders of magnitude, precious metals do nothing except sit there. The only investment that makes sense is real estate... and that requires six digits to obtain something useful... and then, there are all the upkeep costs, even if it is just surveying every so often to shoo away the squatters to protect against adverse possession.

      I like the idea of microloans (even though I respect the charity, I'd like something more investment oriented.) However, that is all or nothing -- you get your interest or you lose your shirt.

    38. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Another A:

      Vaguely conspiratorial accusations centering around the fed and/or federal government(but never states, oddly) that are completely unhelpful

      Come on, give me a non-vague demonstration of your point. At all.

    39. Re:Cant be worse by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      If today $1 buys you one hotdog and your salary is $10/hour, yet a year from now $1 buys you two hotdogs yet your salary is $7.50/hour, your salary has gone "down"

      What exactly is the rate of deflation in this example? The price of a hot dog dropped 50%, but the price of labor dropped only 25%.

      and the prices are all halved, the result isn't a poorer economy - it's an economy in which everybody can buy twice as much stuff as before.

      Nope. The price of labor must also be halved, so everybody can buy exactly what they could before.

      Savings are what drive investments - an investment is basically taking a bunch of savings and applying it with the hope of making more money.

      Investment is spending any asset toward creating a system to return more value than what was spent. Investing is not saving. When you buy into an investment, you do not keep ownership of your money. You buy a certificate saying you contributed a certain percentage to the endeavor.

      You don't seem to understand what the point of commerce is. The whole reason commerce ever happens is to give people things they want. If I want a good, a functional economy should ensure that I have the resources to acquire that good. In a strong economy, everybody can get what they want easily - supply meets demand. The numbers on the currency don't matter at all for that purpose.

      Unfortunately, humans don't think that way. They see the numbers and remember what numbers used to be. They predict where the numbers will be in the future, and they adjust habits based on that. with an increased demand for money, there is less money available to the people who want money in exchange for their products, including those who want to sell their labor directly. If labor costs stay perfectly in sync with the deflation, everything is fine, except workers will see the numbers on their paycheck continually decrease, so they'll cut spending even more, until they only purchase bare essentials for life. Yes, they could purchase the same amount as before, but they won't realize that when they're just seeing ever-smaller numbers in front of them.

      Without people buying those nonessential goods, the companies making those goods will collapse, leaving those workers jobless (and even faster if wages deflate more slowly than the price of consumer goods). Those unemployed people see even smaller budgets for purchases, continuing the cycle. Eventually there is an equilibrium at the point of desperation, where people can produce just enough for themselves to survive, and all nonessential commerce is effectively halted. Excess production is pointless, because people won't spend the money to buy it.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    40. Re:Cant be worse by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture#United_States_examples

      There was a study that is often used to make the claim that "minimum wage doesn't cause unemployment" which came to it's conclusion by looking at the difference in unemployment rates between counties with different minimum wage rates despite the fact that the difference in minimum wage in these areas was negligible.

    41. Re:Cant be worse by LF11 · · Score: 1

      > Deflation makes an item worth $1000, worth $990 later. It hurts people with assets. However, if you have cash, that same amount of cash will buy more as deflation continues. Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow and inventory in shops is a bad thing because you pay interest on holding it while it reduces in value.

      You are correct in every point. What you miss, however, is the elephant in the room. If people stop buying assets, that means the end of consumerism. From an ecological perspective, this is the only way to stop the climate catastrophe and mass extinction events that are becoming increasingly serious.

    42. Re:Cant be worse by LF11 · · Score: 1

      > it has a much better track record than Bitcoin.

      Funny, I would argue the exact opposite. That is purely a matter of perspective ... and a pretty limited perspective at that.

      Bitcoin does not suffer from weaknesses inherent in a centralized-control system. It is global. Think about that; the first truely global currency with universal appeal in every counry, and all you can do is sit there and bash it.

      As for stability, your concern is misplaced. I use it for daily transactions, and find the volatility to be an attractive feature rather than a hindrance. Volatility is bad if it goes in one direction for a long time. These crazy swings? Not so bad.

    43. Re:Cant be worse by Laxori666 · · Score: 1

      What exactly is the rate of deflation in this example? The price of a hot dog dropped 50%, but the price of labor dropped only 25%.

      Yes, I was making the point that just because your wage is lower, it does not mean you are poorer.

      Nope. The price of labor must also be halved, so everybody can buy exactly what they could before.

      Read my example again. I was saying if goods become twice as cheap to produce - let's say due to a revolutionary new hotdog-making-machine - then the result is that prices go down, without wages necessarily going down.

      Investment is spending any asset toward creating a system to return more value than what was spent. Investing is not saving. When you buy into an investment, you do not keep ownership of your money. You buy a certificate saying you contributed a certain percentage to the endeavor.

      I didn't say investment was saving, I said that savings *drive* investment. You cannot have an investment if there are no savings, because nobody has the money to spare.

      You don't seem to understand what the point of commerce is. The whole reason commerce ever happens is to give people things they want. If I want a good, a functional economy should ensure that I have the resources to acquire that good. In a strong economy, everybody can get what they want easily - supply meets demand. The numbers on the currency don't matter at all for that purpose.

      Agreed.

      Unfortunately, humans don't think that way. They see the numbers and remember what numbers used to be. They predict where the numbers will be in the future, and they adjust habits based on that. with an increased demand for money, there is less money available to the people who want money in exchange for their products, including those who want to sell their labor directly. If labor costs stay perfectly in sync with the deflation, everything is fine, except workers will see the numbers on their paycheck continually decrease, so they'll cut spending even more, until they only purchase bare essentials for life. Yes, they could purchase the same amount as before, but they won't realize that when they're just seeing ever-smaller numbers in front of them.

      Humans do think that way, and taking the numbers into account is the proper way to think about it. I think you are also conflating deflation in terms of the decreased money supply definition plus the decreased prices definition. Initially it meant the former, so I will use "prices lowering" to refer to the latter. Now, why do prices go down? Why can you continually buy better and better computers for lower and lower prices? Now what does that have to do with wages going down?

      Also I think you are assuming people are stupider than they are. If they can purchase the same amount as before, then they will. Why would they not realize it? People realize that they can buy less and less food with the same amount of money, for example.

      Without people buying those nonessential goods, the companies making those goods will collapse, leaving those workers jobless (and even faster if wages deflate more slowly than the price of consumer goods). Those unemployed people see even smaller budgets for purchases, continuing the cycle. Eventually there is an equilibrium at the point of desperation, where people can produce just enough for themselves to survive, and all nonessential commerce is effectively halted. Excess production is pointless, because people won't spend the money to buy it.

      If I have purchased all the nonessential goods I need, and I have money left over, then I'm going to go and figure out what to do with that money. If there's not a lot of it, then I will save it. If there's a bunch, I will spend some to have fun. If there's a crapton, I might invest it. I don't see why this would change just because the numbers are getting smaller.

    44. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      A lot of those are bad, but they tend to be of the sort, very widely, of "regulation wasn't happening anymore," which is a farcry from your conspiratorial allegation that it's a "money making scheme".

    45. Re:Cant be worse by tftp · · Score: 1

      True, the US government will never listen to 99.99% of the country's population. However the remaining 0.01% install and remove Presidents with a single phone call. They will be listened to, and very carefully.

    46. Re:Cant be worse by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      Quite the opposite. The US Government is supposed to manipulate the currency to achieve two things: to keep inflation low (2% is the usual target) and to keep unemployment as low as possible (about 5% normally).

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    47. Re:Cant be worse by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      Go get em! You've got the trolls and the zombies on the run.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    48. Re:Cant be worse by suutar · · Score: 1

      Or a number of years ago, when Iraq was considering selling oil for Euros instead of dollars...

    49. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If today $1 buys you one hotdog and your salary is $10/hour, yet a year from now $1 buys you two hotdogs yet your salary is $7.50/hour, your salary has gone "down", yet your purchasing power has actually increased (assuming hotdogs are the only product in this small example). It doesn't matter what the absolute number of your wage is, what matters is your purchasing power.

      Why not assume that we have inflation, where today $1 buys you one hotdog and you make $10/hour, and tomorrow $2 buys you a hotdog but you make $30/hour?

      This sort of argument leads to the thought that inflation and deflation don't matter whatsoever and so it doesn't really help any pro-deflation argument in the first place. In reality, an inflation or deflation rate that's too high would be clearly disastrous just because it moves too quickly and you might as well just barter hotdogs.

      The economy is made up of an aggregate of single products.

      What applies to an individual does not necessarily apply when aggregated to the whole. Consider a blanket "50% off *all costs forever*? coupon given to Fred for the cost of half his current equity. Now Fred earns twice as much since he has individualized universal deflation but maintains the same income. Now give it to everybody, and nobody is twice as wealthy because the people paying Fred get 50% off of Fred's services. Clearly what applies to the individual does not necessarily apply to the whole. Another example is the prisoner's dilemma.

      In a deflationary economy, the same effect would be achieved by lowering salaries. But this lower salary doesn't mean you are poorer, it means you have the same purchasing power as before.

      Agreed, though I suspect the psychology of an annual paycut is quite different than an annual pay raise. I'm not saying that's a great argument for inflation, but I don't think this will be effectively equivalent in society.

      This doesn't mean your house will instantly start depreciating. If your house has exactly as much *value* as before, and the dollar gets stronger and stronger, then yes, the price will go down.

      Most people can't buy a house outright, they have to use some sort of debt instrument. Debt instruments are typically denominated in currency. Unless the mortgage holder is actually going to pay you in order to loan you money (via a negative interest rate), this means that the value of the system (house + mortgage) is decreasing over time -- but actually the mortgage-holder obviously expects a higher return than they would if they just didn't loan you money and kept it to themselves, so there is not going to be negative interest in the same way that people got paycuts in this deflationary economy. Your mortgage payments now have to exceed that, plus the interest, in order to stay in the same place.

      Of course, this means fewer people take out mortgages, because mortgages are less enticing. And thus mortgage lending and house purchases are forms of investment that clearly are reduced.

      an investment is basically taking a bunch of savings and applying it with the hope of making more money.

      In other words, savings are not investments. Or to put it another way, savings are a special kind of investment in currency, which is wise because the whole premise is the currency is deflating, in other words, the currency is increasing in value relative to the investments you could make / real assets you could purchase / consumption you could effect. The trouble with investing in currency is it has little economic value in and of itself, so normally when we say "investing" we are referring to investing in non-currency, and we use the special word "savings" for investing in your local currency. So your claim reduces to "investing a greater proportion of your assets in currency means that you invest a greater proportion of your assets in non-currency", which is absurd on the fac

    50. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, this makes debt devalued, as well as savings.

      Good to see we are pushing people toward good economic decisions.

    51. Re:Cant be worse by codebonobo · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin is at minimum a interesting test case for testing the differences in opinions between the Austrian school and Keynesian models. I won't lower myself to the level of using arguments from authority but am interested if you have heard of any test cases where states have followed Austrian school of economic policies for me to educate myself upon. If there are none than rather than call your detractors whiners instead of scholars, we would more fairly posit that we do not know which models are best suited for the marketplace and Bitcoin is an interesting international test case.

    52. Re:Cant be worse by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      You're conflating prices for value. What really matters in terms of economic wealth is purchasing power - what one dollar can buy you. If today $1 buys you one hotdog and your salary is $10/hour, yet a year from now $1 buys you two hotdogs yet your salary is $7.50/hour, your salary has gone "down", yet your purchasing power has actually increased (assuming hotdogs are the only product in this small example). It doesn't matter what the absolute number of your wage is, what matters is your purchasing power.

      Who is conflating prices and value? You give a contrived example where hot dogs just happen to get cheaper faster than your labor does. So what? The same thing can in an inflationary economy.

      Here's where your system breaks down, since you obviously can't think on the larger scale. Who controls most of the money? Rich people. Do you think the rich people (the executives, managers, etc.) are going to voluntarily take pay cuts, even if deflation occurs? Not unless they absolutely have to.

      So, all things being equal, if the economy is deflating and prices are going down, companies are making less money. People in charge of companies won't volunteer to take less money (even if it's worth more), so they cut jobs or wages for those "lower on the food chain." And because the profits of companies are constrained by the lower prices, your wages have to fall faster than prices (on average) in order for the companies to maintain their profits and pay the executive salaries even at a steady rate.

      If you don't think this would happen, it's EXACTLY what happens today in inflationary economies. When a company makes more money in excess of inflation, do the lowly workers always get a raise? No -- the execs skim as much as they can off the top first, and dole out the smallest amount possible to retain their employees. Which means even if you're getting pay increases, they may not keep up with inflation... hence, your purchasing power is gradually decreasing, even if your salary comes up.

      Deflationary economies would still maintain similar trends in businesses, except now owners aren't worried about how much their "bonus" will be, but whether they can take the same amount as last year (even if the value of that amount has increased). If deflation goes fast enough, you can bet that most companies will cut jobs or cut pay faster than prices are dropping. Sure, you might be lucky enough to work for a company or have a job where your pay goes down more slowly, but to make the general economy balance out, those lower prices will force wages overall to fall just as fast. Overall -- the population does not magically "win" in a deflationary economy.

      If all products suddenly become twice as cheap to produce, and the prices are all halved, the result isn't a poorer economy - it's an economy in which everybody can buy twice as much stuff as before

      Who the heck do you think makes all this stuff!?!?! I mean, really?? If all the prices go down, all the companies make less money overall, which means they can only pay less wages. There's no "free lunch." You can't say that prices everywhere are going down but somehow magically there's money somewhere that is keeping wages higher than prices. Your hot dog example seems to presume that wages will fall slower than prices, but that will only happen as long as there's still room for more efficiency. Eventually quality of goods will start to go down too, to keep lowering prices while not lowering wages as fast.

      But this lower salary doesn't mean you are poorer, it means you have the same purchasing power as before.

      Only if wages fall at the same rate as prices. Given that in inflationary economies, wages often don't keep up rising with inflation, how can you guarantee that in a deflationary one, wages will fall more slowly than overall deflation?

      You are also confused about loans in that the interest rate f

    53. Re:Cant be worse by multimediavt · · Score: 1

      But hyper inflation is not bankruptcy. OP is correct.

      Incidentally all currency is fiat, even bitcoin. The only difference is that with bitcoin the users are the ones that say it has value. Color me skeptical, but I'd trust any government over a bunch of greasy neck beards.

      Definition of 'bankrupt' from OED: "impoverished or depleted"

      If your currency is worth nothing because of hyper-inflation you're bankrupt as a country because you can't buy anything, let alone pay off debts.

      How is bitcoin fiat currency? It ain't issued by a government and it doesn't really exist so it has no intrinsic value.

      Me thinks someone needs to take Economics 101, AGAIN!

    54. Re:Cant be worse by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      "conspiratorial" and "money making scheme" are your loaded words not mine.

      And the idea that when regulators are corrupt it means "regulation wasn't happening anymore" is ridiculous. You fear business people will abuse their power without regulations but don't fear the people trusted to make and enforce regulations will. People are the problem and you shouldn't put too much faith in any of them.

      If you don't believe people make money from regulations you are either uninformed or willfully blind.

      In my state all license testing is done by a private company. Needless to say this state created monopoly makes someone a lot of money.

      Regulations can also be used to create barriers to entry and there are plenty of well documented cases of regulations being used to keep out competition.

      Also in my state they recently legalized medical marijuana but they are only issuing a very few licenses to sell it. Who's getting one? A state senators wife.

    55. Re:Cant be worse by codebonobo · · Score: 1

      Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow

      The data shows this is not the case. https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions http://blog.bitpay.com/2013/12/bitpay-drives-explosive-growth-in.html

      Payment exchangers like bitpay who facilitate merchant processing show the highest amount of purchasing activity of actual goods during periods where bitcoin is rapidly rising in value. This contradicts claims made from economists who support inflationary models who predict that deflation will encourage hoarding and thus drive down spending. While individuals using deflationary currency may be more likely to save and spend their money on items that they really need(One would think these are good behaviors, right?), they still feel the wealth effect of their new found savings and therefore are more likely to spend and be generous during times where bitcoin is rapidly appreciating with planned deflation.

      Perhaps Smart people actually occasionally need to buy things when they need them?

    56. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish people who didn't understand basic economics wouldn't post like they did.

      We're in agreement on that much.

    57. Re:Cant be worse by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      [quote]If I have purchased all the nonessential goods I need, and I have money left over, then I'm going to go and figure out what to do with that money. If there's not a lot of it, then I will save it. If there's a bunch, I will spend some to have fun. If there's a crapton, I might invest it. I don't see why this would change just because the numbers are getting smaller.[/quote]

      Why would you invest any money, when if you have a lot of it, it's just going to sit there increasing in value with you doing nothing with it?

      More importantly, why would anyone borrow it, when the principal will be larger then the amount they originally borrowed and progressively represent more and more of their real earnings?

      It's a catch-22: you want to invest, but to justify that you need to charge an interest rate, but since everyone ends up already paying a de facto interest rate via deflation they'll do almost anything to avoid borrowing.

    58. Re:Cant be worse by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      > Deflation makes an item worth $1000, worth $990 later. It hurts people with assets. However, if you have cash, that same amount of cash will buy more as deflation continues. Deflation is bad because SMART people stop buying things that will be cheaper tomorrow and inventory in shops is a bad thing because you pay interest on holding it while it reduces in value.

      You are correct in every point. What you miss, however, is the elephant in the room. If people stop buying assets, that means the end of consumerism. From an ecological perspective, this is the only way to stop the climate catastrophe and mass extinction events that are becoming increasingly serious.

      There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.

      For one thing, mass extinction events aren't "common".

      Secondly: consumerism isn't about people buying assets. It's about them buying disposable, consumable items, as the norm i the economy.

      Thirdly: consumerism is not linked to climate change. Emissions of Greenhouse Gases are. Which are also not actually linked to consumerism. There is absolutely nothing implicit in the idea of consumerism which is associated with climate change. Consumerism also isn't linked (implicitly) to resource consumption - since it's just about the item as used by the consumer, not it's lifecycle. And on top of that, you can have perpetual economic growth on a finite resource base easily - since industry is essentially asymptotic towards 100% efficiency. You can grow your economy by going from 90% efficient to 95% to 99% to 99.9%. You don't grow as fast, but you do grow.

    59. Re:Cant be worse by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      If you want to trust the people pissing on your feet to tell you it's raining, that's your lookout.

    60. Re:Cant be worse by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Wealth not money. And it isn't some conspiracy theory, it's what they tell you they're doing. It's all very public.

    61. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's ignorant. The real problem is that the price of food (or any product) goes down so it makes little sense for capitalists to invest in its production. If printing of fiat currency (or slipping of the gold peg) isn't used to minimize deflation (Japan through the 90s) or keep deflation from taking hold (the U.S., post-2007 but not post-1929), you end up with a real deflationary spiral (Weimar 1930-32, after several years of stability after the hyperinflation of 1923-25). Because unemployment spikes at the same time, no one can buy the cheaper products despite the demand and the decline in price, famine goes up while production numbers go down... until the regime of asset-holders that enforce the use of deflationary currency is ejected by the mobb, in many pieces, some of the more head-shaped pieces being preserved for a few months on pikes. Note that Hitler came to power after deflation, not inflation.

      So yes, it's annoying when people that don't understand econ or economic history blather about how deflation isn't a bad thing.

    62. Re:Cant be worse by LF11 · · Score: 1

      Humans are perpetrating the 6th great mass extinction event. They are not common, but we are causing one of them.

      > Secondly: consumerism isn't about people buying assets. It's about them buying disposable, consumable items, as the norm i the economy.

      My bad, but you are arguing a very fine point of definition. Most people consider cars and houses to be "assets," but the present forms of them are clear examples of the kind of consumerism that is destroying the planet.

      > Thirdly: consumerism is not linked to climate change.

      Bullshit. Show me some science that even begins to prove this point. It is obvious on the face of it. Where do greenhouse gases come from? The 15 biggest polluting ships in the world put out more greenhouse gases than every car in the world. Greenhouse gases come from us transporting ourselves and our goods to market, where we can consume them at our leisure. Or, in some cases, us using the terrible firepower of modern "civilization" to ensure continuing flow of energy and goods to market.

      > There is absolutely nothing implicit in the idea of consumerism which is associated with climate change.

      True, but the way we have implemented consumerism is directly precipitating climate change. You can argue the philosophical definition all you want, but the reality is quite clear.

      > And on top of that, you can have perpetual economic growth on a finite resource base easily - since industry is essentially asymptotic towards 100% efficiency.

      This is true, and is the only future in which we have a chance at surviving. However, we must stop fueling our growth on nonrenewable carbon, or we will return the earth to the stage in which it existed when all the carbon locked up in oil and coal was part of the atmosphere. It is very simple math. Carbon went from the air into the ground. We are taking carbon out of the ground and putting it into the air. QED.

      I wasn't just talking about climate change. I was also talking about mass extinction. Even if we solve the carbon problem, we are still systematically destroying trophic webs across the planet. Destroy enough and the whole thing collapses like an overpoisoned salt marsh or the great dead zones off so many of our formerly-healthy coastlines. However, if we can manage to stop buying so much shit, then there is greatly less pressure to extract ever more raw material from the earth. Furthermore, fewer purchases means a reduced waste stream.

      Deflation == the end of an age of excess. Many see it as a nightmare, but it is the only thing I have seen that has a prayer of saving us. Feel free to disagree; I don't have to convince you. I have spent a great deal of time thinking about this, and am simply stating what I perceive as the truth.

    63. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is bitcoin fiat currency? [wikipedia.org] It ain't issued by a government and it doesn't really exist so it has no intrinsic value.

      Fiat money has been defined variously as:
      * any money declared by a government to be legal tender.[1]
      * state-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.[2]
      * money without intrinsic value.[3][4]
      [skipped]
      Monetary economics

      In monetary economics, fiat money is an intrinsically useless product, used as a means of payment.[19] In some micro-founded models of money, fiat money is created internally in a community making feasible trades that would not otherwise be possible, either because producers and consumers may not anonymously write IOUs, or because of physical constraints.[20][21]

      Do you even read what you link to? It fits this definition of fiat money to a T.

    64. Re:Cant be worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean, people buy things with Bitcoin when they consider it to be nearing the top of a current boom and bust cycle? Whodathought. The same people cry here afterwards how they cashed out their BTC when it was at $200, or how they didn't when it was at $1200. Seems like Smart people actually are just not willing to bet that Bitcoin will grow indefinitely.

      PS: Number of transactions is not a good indicator, considering how many of those are speculation at exchanges and things like money tumblers. Could you look up how much goes through Coinbase or Bitpay? It'd make a much better point when paired with this graph.

    65. Re:Cant be worse by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Quite the opposite. The US Government is supposed to manipulate the currency to achieve two things: to keep inflation low (2% is the usual target) and to keep unemployment as low as possible (about 5% normally).

      Oddly, neither is on track. Perhaps they're doing their best. I suspect they're doing their worst.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    66. Re:Cant be worse by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      What I was getting at with my previous comment is that americans as a collective don't actually care enough/aren't collectively smart enough to make the government answer to anything. They're more interested in whatever celebrity drama or other thing to be outraged about that the news media feels like manufacturing to get more ratings. The system is stacked towards maintaining the current status quo. If they ever do get riled up enough to do something, it's rarely something that some political sleight of hand can't fix.

      To imply that it's a handful of the elite calling the shots is not only nutjob territory, but it makes no sense. If it was a handful of people in the background, we'd see things working a bit smoother. Content people have no reason to revolt and upset the status quo.

    67. Re:Cant be worse by syockit · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't they come to shop at the supermarket more frequently then? It's just that the market becomes more liquid than ever!

      --
      Democracy is for the people; you only vote once per season and we'll do the rest of the work for you don't have to.
    68. Re:Cant be worse by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      bitcoin has its share of internal support. It's a good thing.

    69. Re:Cant be worse by trout007 · · Score: 1

      The whole reson most people are in the stock market in the first place is because the tax code and regulations make it nearly impossible to just put your savings in a bank. It's almost as if the financial companies tried to get laws passed that would make you put all of your money under their control in the stock market. Probrably just a coincidence.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    70. Re:Cant be worse by trout007 · · Score: 1

      The dollar worked for a long time because it was or was backed by an ounce of silver. Since that ended it's had been the legal tender laws and the guns that back it that makes the US dollar work.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    71. Re:Cant be worse by guacamole · · Score: 1

      This doesn't make any sense. People don't keep much cash in a back account, because bank interests are meager, barely enough to keep up with the inflation rate, if at all. Historically stocks yielded average 9% return, adjusted for inflation while treasury paper 1%, adjusted for inflation.

    72. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      "conspiratorial" and "money making scheme" are your loaded words not mine.

      Nuh-uh!

    73. Re:Cant be worse by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Oh come on, it was clearly commentary on how polar opposite of "flamebait" that particular post was.

  6. Yes, I Pinky Swear by Stickerboy · · Score: 1

    ...I will Do No Evil(tm).

    Laws and pledges will inevitably be broken inversely proportional to the enforcement and proportional to the benefits of breaking your word and how many people are involved. So Bitcoin is good, no one involved is trying to make money for nothing.

    --
    Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Yes, I Pinky Swear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, but as we all know, we can trust Bitcoin because... um... look at the pretty hashes! So many hex digits... oooo... hex digits have never let us down before! Hex digits are our only true friends...

  7. "But can a network relying on such assurances surv by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "But can a network relying on such assurances survive in the long run?"

    No, but it can rely on the fact that the damage any such attack would do to Bitcoin would definitely not be in any mining pools interest. It's not even a prisoner's dillema, it's just bad all round.

  8. Assurance is good, control ist better. by ExXter · · Score: 2

    At least that is the theory. But we all know that there is no control for the control... thus we are back to trust. But since its about money and there is no guarantee that a third party can get involved which may force the farm into exploiding the 51% attack it will only solve this issue by not having 51% of the overall computational power. This means, either giving up on at least 1% atm or helping other farms reaching a higher computational share.

  9. I'm probably going to regret this post by Sockatume · · Score: 5, Funny

    Libertarian currency in "falls into monopoly" shock.

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    1. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      I am not afraid of the Monopoly, as much as I am over reaching governments. Monopolies will eventually fail, over reaching governments just keep over reaching.

      Microsoft was a Monopoly. It has failed. It was replaced by something Microsoft couldn't buy, sell, or legislate against (Linux). Now we have a vibrant ecosystem of computers that Microsoft never even imagined until it was too late. All without government intervention.

      The problem with Monopolies is that it often takes longer to fail than people are willing to wait for. It is part of the "Something must be done, this is something (even if it is the wrong thing to do), therefore it must be done" mentality that is short sighted.

      Monopolies are natural, so is their demise. Laws that deal with Monopolies last forever, and have terrible unintended consequences.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    2. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am not afraid of the Monopoly, as much as I am over reaching governments. Monopolies will eventually fail, over reaching governments just keep over reaching.

      Yet somehow the East India companies managed to impoverish the larger part of humanity for over three centuries and have a run of over a century each. Monopoly and government are the same thing. Only American Libertarians think they live in a world where economic and political power have nothing in common and can't reenforce each other until the fundamentals of the economy turn against them.

    3. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by operagost · · Score: 1

      Great insight. There are no shortage of power-hungry politicians who will look at a monopoly or similar situation as an "emergency" and convince the people to give the government permanent power to "solve" a temporary problem.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    4. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 1

      What the hell do you expect the US government to do with the currency that's "evil"? Small amounts of inflation are desirable from a citizen standpoint and from an economic growth standpoint, not just from a deficit spending standpoint.

    5. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by operagost · · Score: 1

      Great insight. There are no shortage of power-hungry politicians who will look at a monopoly or similar situation as an "emergency" and convince the people to give the government permanent power to "solve" a temporary problem.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    6. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not afraid of the Monopoly, as much as I am over reaching governments. Monopolies will eventually fail, over reaching governments just keep over reaching.

      The problem with Monopolies is that it often takes longer to fail than people are willing to wait for.

      Monopolies are natural, so is their demise. Laws that deal with Monopolies last forever, and have terrible unintended consequences.

      WTF? Governments keep over reaching, laws are eternal?
      Are you really THAT stupid? Seriously? We're still bound by the laws of Rome, or the Aztecs, or the Mayas, or Hammurabi or...

      Just shut up and let the adults deal with things.

    7. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft was a Monopoly. It has failed. It was replaced by something Microsoft couldn't buy, sell, or legislate against (Linux). Now we have a vibrant ecosystem of computers that Microsoft never even imagined until it was too late. All without government intervention.

      Fascinating, Captain. Are you trolling or just misinformed? Compare the earnings of MSFT to RHT. Some kindda failure. Then there's the little matter of the Microsoft antitrust case by Uncle Sam. Then there's the relatively small market share of Linux versus Windows.

      Although dreams of World Domination by Linux may come true eventually, it ain't happened yet, even after very substantial government antitrust action against Microsoft. Meanwhile, the idea mostly just makes for a cute T-shirt.

    8. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Burz · · Score: 1

      Libertarian currency in "falls into monopoly" shock.

      In almost no time flat, I might add. You'd think it would take at least a decade... slow enough to maintain a little bit of self-respect in the minds of its purveyors.

      Still, I think "monopoly" is being too harsh. Its more like a cartel formed by the ghosts of koolaid drinkers from Jonestown.

    9. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      East India companies didn't do any such thing. One cannot restrict trade without the authorization of the state. In this case, the state was a monarchy (tyranny) that authorized such, and empowered the corporation to enforce its monopoly. It was not a natural monopoly.

      If you want a better example, you should have gone for Standard Oil Monopoly.

      But my counter to the breakup of Standard Oil is, the unintended consequences of that breakup includes the National Highway system (Interstates) instead of Railroads and trolly cars, and large megalopolis cities rather than smaller self-contained communities, and no "war for oil". And, it is entirely likely that we would have an alternative fuel system that didn't depend on ever increasing drilling in sensitive ecological zones.

      The problem is, we'll never know because we didn't choose that path.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    10. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      The Monopoly of Microsoft was not destroyed by US or European governments punishing it, it was destroyed by Linux. The monopoly of Rome lasted several centuries. I'll take my chances with Microsoft than a tyranny that spans generations.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    11. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Can you tell me, where is Microsoft a monopoly? Did the EU or USA break it up or do ANYTHING to stop it from being a monopoly?

      The rise and fall of Microsoft took less than 30 years. The tyranny of government lasts much much longer.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    12. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      I think he was referencing Android.

    13. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft was a Monopoly. It has failed. It was replaced by something Microsoft couldn't buy, sell, or legislate against (Linux). Now we have a vibrant ecosystem of computers that Microsoft never even imagined until it was too late. All without government intervention.

      Eh? Are you trolling or just stupid? Microsoft's primary product is a PC operating system, which is still in use on a whopping majority of PCs. Linux isn't. And no, Junior, a smartphone does not count as a PC, nor does some embedded device. Linux still can't cut the mustard on desktops and laptops.

    14. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft's monopoly still exists, you idiot. Their monopoly is and always has been the desktop. That computer thingy you carry in your pocket and act like an idiot in public with isn't part of Microsoft's monopoly.

      If you think there's been a "fall" of MS, you're just not paying attention. Look at MSFT prices over almost any window of time...the trend is UP.

      Oh, and to somehow think that government is insulated from - and something separate from - concentrated economic power is to ignore the entirety of human history.

    15. Re:I'm probably going to regret this post by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      Jesus, what fucking drugs are you taking? Monopolies rarely fail. When they do it's because of government intervention. Even Milton Friedman was concerned about monopolies and he absolutely hated government involvement in business but he was for it when it came to monopolies. Also, on what fucking planet did Microsoft fail? Not this one, because they completely dominate the OS market. OSX has vastly more market share than linux and it's a drop in the sand compared to Windows' share. And apparently you weren't paying any fucking attention when the GOVERNMENT intervened to reduce the power of Microsoft's monopoly. The damage was already done and the result has changed little since then.

      TL;DR
      You're completely fucking wrong and have no idea what you're talking about.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
  10. imagine the NSA doing it by alen · · Score: 1

    double and triple spending the same coins

  11. So let me get this straight by SirGarlon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Let me get this straight. In order to use Bitcoins, I don't have to trust any government ... but I *do* have to trust a group of random people on the Internet who have a massive stake in the market and say they would never manipulate that market.

    Choose your poison, I guess.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:So let me get this straight by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Alternative phrasing, modern post-industrial economies always depend on you dealing with other people, some of whom will benefit from screwing you.

    2. Re:So let me get this straight by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Informative

      This has nothing to do with the market in bitcoin speculation. It's about the fact that a majority of the cryptographic network (which is what bitcoin miners are) has to concur for a transaction (sending money to someone else) to be considered valid. When you control 51% of the computing power, you can start faking transactions.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:So let me get this straight by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      Well put!

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    4. Re:So let me get this straight by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Hence the phrase, "Choose your poison."

      Alternate phrasing - Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    5. Re:So let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Alternative phrasing, modern post-industrial economies always depend on you dealing with other people, some of whom will benefit from screwing you.

      Or just get to the raw truth:
      Economics involves dealing with people, many of whom are jerks.

    6. Re:So let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You can also block specific people from making valid transactions, so the whole "censorship-free currency" thing turns out to be, in the end, a pile of horseshit.

    7. Re:So let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Modern post-industrial economies also have a plethora of regulations and many public figures who can be held accountable. Even private parties can only be so private when they are working at large banks and such.

      Moral of the story: of course there are always people who would benefit from screwing you, but you cannot argue that trusting a random group of people who you basically could never even know who they are much less hold accountable is better than trusting a government/worldwide economy.

      The current world economy also benefits from arbitrage and so many market making parties that it creates a fairly efficient environment. These people who can suddenly manipulate bitcoins are basically a pure monopoly that make it so it cannot become efficient just from many active parties.

    8. Re:So let me get this straight by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Indeed, I've found that to be the logical conclusion of my premise as well, but it doesn't sit well with the neoclassicalists, so I thought I'd let the premise stand on its own.

    9. Re:So let me get this straight by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Perfect analysis. I prefer random people to organized crime .... er ... government. Thank you.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    10. Re:So let me get this straight by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      One can counter this by increasing the requirement from 50% confidence (or whatever) to 75% (or whatever). Further, this is solvable by replacing Mining operations with plain old processing for a fee operations. From what I understand, one does not have to "mine" coins to process transactions, one can simply process for a part of the transaction, as a fee. Higher Fees mean faster transaction processing. (and if it isn't part of the protocol, it should be)

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    11. Re:So let me get this straight by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      At least the random group of people on the internet don't threaten me with guns for not obeying their silly rules like the government does.

      Before someone jumps the gun, no I don't mean that we should be allowed to do anything we want. Don't even bother suggesting it as a retort; it's ridiculously cliche.

    12. Re:So let me get this straight by MrChips · · Score: 1

      When you control 51% of the computing power, you can start faking transactions.

      Not fake transactions, but control which transaction get in and rollback the recent past. So you can spend some coin to the recipient's satisfaction, then undo that transaction and spend your coin somewhere else.

      I assume by "faking transactions" you mean forging other people's signatures to spend their coins. You can't do that, but you can prevent them from spending their coin.

    13. Re:So let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you just have to trust a designer or designers hiding behind a mask, exchanges that are well regulated by themselves to ensure top security, the fact that mysterious early adopters can have plenty of freebies while latecomers have to put actual value into the currency to play.

      Sounds like a trustworthy thing to me!

    14. Re:So let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only prostitution were legal in more places, then the customer could benefit from being screwed as well.

    15. Re:So let me get this straight by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with the market in bitcoin speculation. It's about the fact that a majority of the cryptographic network (which is what bitcoin miners are) has to concur for a transaction (sending money to someone else) to be considered valid. When you control 51% of the computing power, you can start faking transactions.

      Whether you own 1 dollar, or 1 billion dollars, you can order the same food at a McDonald's, pay for it, and then eat it, without ever worrying that the next person who shows up at the drive-thru will invalidate your transaction. And yet, we tolerate this kind of stupidity in crypto-currency. The only headlines bitcoin seems to make are multi-million dollar scams, and abstract new attacks that make what goes on in Wall Street look rather dull and ordinary by comparison. It seems the only reason to use bitcoin is out of fear. Maybe you're scared of the government. Maybe you're scared of banks. Whatever your motivation, it seems that if you're using bitcoin, it's mostly based on some kind of fear.

      I could be using painted rocks and secure the currency better than bitcoin seems to be capable of; an irony no doubt since it was allegedly designed to use cryptography so strong and with protocols so resiliant that it would be "better" than physical currency.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    16. Re:So let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not really, if you need more than 50% then no single entity can approve, but it now has complete veto power over transactions.

    17. Re:So let me get this straight by LF11 · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight...you never buy things based on other people's reviews?

      Please. I trust random internet strangers vastly more than my elected politicians.

    18. Re:So let me get this straight by tftp · · Score: 2

      Indeed, a free currency needs more fees. Want to pay? Pay for the paying. Don't forget a fee for the pay for the pay...

    19. Re:So let me get this straight by Flammon · · Score: 1

      ... but I *do* have to trust a group of random people on the Internet who have a massive stake in the market and say they would never manipulate that market.

      As he types this on his Linux box.

    20. Re:So let me get this straight by codebonobo · · Score: 1

      The framework of Bitcoin was deliberately designed to be a trust-less system where you don't need to have faith or trust in anyone. The only trust you need in is that at least 51% of miners and users have the best interest of preserving the value of their assets.

    21. Re:So let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I understand, one does not have to "mine" coins to process transactions, one can simply process for a part of the transaction, as a fee.

      Mining is processing transactions. They are one and the same.

    22. Re:So let me get this straight by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Indeed, a free currency needs more fees. Want to pay? Pay for the paying. Don't forget a fee for the pay for the pay...

      Remember, Facebook sucks because you're not paying for it, but bitcoin sucks because you have to pay for it.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    23. Re:So let me get this straight by tftp · · Score: 1

      You pay for both; and, IMO, Facebook is more expensive in the long term. A BTC fee is not going to haunt you ten years down the road.

    24. Re:So let me get this straight by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      sounds like the financial industry. Finance industrialization. Now, finance the financed industrialization. Securitize it, and sell it to investors.

    25. Re:So let me get this straight by tftp · · Score: 1

      Well, some starry-eyed BTC tinkerers still remain; however the big dogs have moved in - it's them who run ASIC farms in Iceland, not a geek in his parents' basement. BTC mining is an industry now, with their own capitalists. Even among geeks the initial desire to have a "free as in speech" currency quickly morphed into a speculative addiction. How many people here proudly declared that they made money on buying and selling BTC? On the other hand, there isn't much other use of BTC. It became the tulip bulbs of 21st century, except that you can't plant it and enjoy the flowers :-)

      The role of that basement-dwelling geek is now only to supply his lunch money into the BTC system, so that miners can sell him their BTC, and the "finance industry" operators, like exchanges, can do him a small haircut on each transaction. If you dislike the current banking system, there is nothing attractive for you in the BTC system of exchanges and transfers for a fee. You want hard, cold cash in hand. Both are poor stores of value; stock of essential companies, valued fairly, is probably the best for that (outside of traditional choices of such precious metals as lead and brass.)

    26. Re:So let me get this straight by dbIII · · Score: 1

      stock of essential companies, valued fairly, is probably the best for that

      Until they appoint an idiot as CEO who tries to provide proof by example that they are too big to fail :(

    27. Re:So let me get this straight by dbIII · · Score: 1

      since it was allegedly designed to use cryptography so strong and with protocols so resiliant that it would be "better" than physical currency

      As I keep saying over and over - mere window dressing on a scam to bait it for geek.
      It's as if they read part of the virtual currency bit in Cryptonomicon but didn't make it to the plot of using large quantities of gold to give the virtual currency users some reason to trust them.

  12. Another Bitcoin story by Notabadguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So many Bitcoin stories. This one asks questions like,
    "Can we trust them?!?"
    "Are these assurances enough!?!"

    Same answer to both: "Who cares anymore?!?"

    1. Re:Another Bitcoin story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Editorial agenda.

  13. It i possible but ..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All this is possible if we look at the fact that the US dollar for many years has been the 'de facto' international currency. The assurance that the US government provides is not even given to the wider community but to its populace, and that is, it will not do random crap with the value of the dollar. In a similar but very limited way economic stability can be maintained with the Bitcoin currency if the dominant player honors their assurance. However, and this is a big however, business is business and if executing the 51% attack is in the best interest (long term) of the GHash.IO, you had better believe that all type of funky will happen to Bitcoin. What's that interest? Who knows, an exit strategy, portfolio diversification, personal or political views, survival in the face of an existential blackmail threat and so on and so forth.

  14. govt takedown by Cardoor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    what's to stop a central bank or government with unlimited funds (and that sees cryptocurrency as a threat) from deliberately buying up mining capacity and doing it themselves?

    1. Re:govt takedown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely nothing. In fact is recent revelations are any indication I'd say its almost a certainty that the NSA has the ability to easily kill bitcoin if they wanted to.

    2. Re:govt takedown by Cardoor · · Score: 1

      agreed. in fact, i have been suspecting for a while now that the volatility in btc pricing (which keeps people away, as who wants a currency that can swing +-20% in a day?) might be due to the government using their seized SilkRoad wallet (and whatever other seized bitcoins they have) to overwhelm the market. people have rallied around the fact that you can't 'short' bitcoins to artificially manipulate it lower - but if you own hundreds of millions of dollars of seized bitcoins (never mind mining for new one), and don't care about preserving the value of your holdings, you could crater the market whenever you feel like it. maybe im off about the ability to push btc prices down dramatically by say, indiscriminantly selling say, $1-2 million worth? i don't know how deep the market is.. maybe someone here does.

    3. Re:govt takedown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that seems like a lot of work and a big budget item when you could instead just compromise the security of a whole lot of mining capacity that other people have already paid for

      "Unit Cost: $0".

    4. Re:govt takedown by biodata · · Score: 1

      >who wants a currency that can swing +-20% in a day? Daytraders? > i don't know how deep the market is BTC Market cap currently around $11billion

      --
      Korma: Good
    5. Re:govt takedown by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Nice theory. Except the Silk Road bitcoins have been sitting doing nothing in the wallet the FBI transferred them to.

    6. Re:govt takedown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's far more likely that the volatility is due to the fact that the vast majority of transitions are speculators playing the market, and short term transactions where BTC is used as a transfer medium between people who are actually doing their accounting and trade in some other currency.

    7. Re:govt takedown by Thavilden · · Score: 1

      Does that mean the addresses of the BTC wallets that the FBI confiscated are publicly known, and traceable on one of the block chain explorers?

    8. Re:govt takedown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep.

      No outgoing transactions yet, but lots of 0.000...1 BTC sends with attached messages that started like "FUK U I HAET FBI", but quickly devolved into "VISIT BEST BTC CASINO" and "IM POOR PLZ GIBE MONI MY BTC ADDRESS: ..."

    9. Re:govt takedown by Cardoor · · Score: 1

      daytraders, sure - but that is not really the point of an alternative currency. im less curious of the market cap as I am of the depth of the trading market - ie, the flow not the stock. my question which I wonder out loud (in writing here) is - how much selling would it take to push the price down significantly?

    10. Re:govt takedown by Cardoor · · Score: 1

      cool - the squashes my theory, but I appreciate the clarity. nice to be able to tell one of the many consipiracy-hamsters running on the wheels in my head that it can take a break.

    11. Re:govt takedown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This attack does not cause someone to steal your money. It allows to manipulate verification. For example person sends the same money to two different people (this is normally not allowed). The first one sees that money were send and it was verified by the network, he or she then gives whatever supposed to be exchanged for bitcoins. At that point the 51% kick in and verifies that the second transaction (e.g. another wallet belonging to the buyer) is the valid one. Since it is the majority, at that point the seller ends up without the item and money.

  15. Probably US government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NSA.io, sorry, Ghash.io, now owns Bitcoin.

    Game over.

  16. Shorter version by davidwr · · Score: 2

    "[E]conomies always depend on you dealing with other people, some of whom will benefit from screwing you"

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Shorter version by i+kan+reed · · Score: 0

      Nah, you can have survival economies before population levels reach concentrations that require modern agriculture. I'm not advocating that as a superior alternative(it sucks), but it is an alternative that doesn't require trusting interactions with others to continue.

  17. re: trust by King_TJ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In order to use any of the current breed of crypto-coins, I think you have to trust quite a few "random people on the Internet" anyway?

    For starters, you have to put some trust in whoever developed the coin you're using -- because let's face it. The entire thing is just a piece of software that someone wrote. Did the developer pre-mine a bunch of coins that he/she is hoarding up secretly, waiting for everyone else to "establish" the coin as a viable currency, only to dump all of it in the future and crash the market -- walking away with the loot? Is there some sort of "back door" designed into a particular crypto-coin so the developer has a way to "cheat" and obtain coins more quickly than everyone else, bypassing the usual rules for mining one?

    You have to put a lot of trust in the people running the currency exchanges. These places typically want you to transfer (sometimes relatively large) sums of crypto into wallets maintained on their servers, just so you can conduct a trade with that money. THEN, you have to further trust that they'll properly handle any withdrawal requests you make.

    To a lesser extent, anyone in ANY mining pool has to put trust in the pool operator. While sure, most competent pools provide all sorts of statistics so you can see how your returns are being calculated and what they estimate your "hash rate" is? It's not out of the realm of possibility that one of these places could "skim off the top" by shorting you just a tiny little bit of hash rate that you wouldn't even notice. Multiplied by all of the miners using the pool, though, it amounts to a lot of CPU time the owner could be redirecting towards coins mined into his own personal wallet someplace?

    If you want to talk about trusting government instead? Now you're talking about a very small group of elite, powerful individuals who call all the shots for a given currency. There's no "moving mining to another pool" if you don't trust the first one here.

    So yeah, it really is a "choose your poison" situation -- but IMO, my own government has proven itself shady, not at all trustworthy, and relatively inept at accomplishing stated goals in a timely manner and under budget. By contrast, the people running the mining pools and exchanges I've used are still more of an "unknown" - but ones who so far, appear to have treated me fairly. So I know which one I'd rather place trust in right now.

  18. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by neilo_1701D · · Score: 1

    No, but it can rely on the fact that the damage any such attack would do to Bitcoin would definitely not be in any mining pools interest. It's not even a prisoner's dillema, it's just bad all round.

    True - if that miner wanted a long-term relationship. If they wanted to manipulate the price then cash out and fly on their pre-booked tickets to Majorca then maybe not so much. Because that's never happened before.

  19. This could be a good lesson for libertarians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They love bitcoin and insist that unregulated free markets produce the best possible outcome. In reality, we know that eventually in free markets through collusions, mergers, and cartels a small number of players will eventually emerge that can control the entire market. So now the value of their bitcoin investment is in the hands of what GHash.io decides to do, even if they promise to not be evil. This is the exact opposite of the anarcho libertarian paradise of what bitcoin was portrayed to be.

    1. Re:This could be a good lesson for libertarians by Entropy98 · · Score: 1

      Have you heard of litecoin?

  20. Bitcoins weakness by RalphSleigh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem here is that mining these days requires custom ASICs made to compute the double SHA-256 used by Bitcoin as the proof of work, CPUs and GPUs just don't cut it. ghash.io is the pool attached to the larger manufacturer of them, and as its always more profitable to mine using your ASICs than sell them, you can't just buy a bunch for anywhere near the cost price and mine yourself.

    Solving this will require someone to make and sell the mining hardware at near the cost price instead of using it themselves. They may lose a bit of profit but in the long run the network will be better off.

    --
    Come as you are, do what you must, be who you will.
    1. Re:Bitcoins weakness by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 1

      Solving this will require someone to make and sell the mining hardware at near the cost price instead of using it themselves.

      Or moving to a Proof Of Stake system and ASIC/GPU resistant algorithm (eg memory-bound):
      https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake
      https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1138.0

      However current GPU/ASIC/miners are dead-set against this as it will make their hardware much more uncompetitive vs normal computers.

    2. Re:Bitcoins weakness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They may lose a bit of profit but in the long run the network will be better off.

      OK. You first.

    3. Re:Bitcoins weakness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Proof-of-stake" is the system where the people with the most coins get the most coins from mining, correct?

      Jumping to that system would reveal the whole thing much more clearly as the ponzi scheme it's always been, so you want to put that off for as long as possible.

    4. Re:Bitcoins weakness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solving this will require someone to make and sell the mining hardware at near the cost price instead of using it themselves. They may lose a bit of profit but in the long run the network will be better off.

      So in other words, its a problem that will never be solved and only get worse in the future.

    5. Re:Bitcoins weakness by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      They may lose a bit of profit but in the long run the network will be better off.

      People get angry over the pursuit of profit / capitalism in general, but heres the issue. If we could get people to do what youre saying (put society before self) we could just all be communist and live in a utopia.

      To make a system that fundamentally depends on altruism is to make a system that is broken.

    6. Re:Bitcoins weakness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or moving to a Proof Of Stake system and ASIC/GPU resistant algorithm (eg memory-bound): .

      The Cuckoo Cycle proof-of-work system is a good candidate, although unlikely to be adopted.
      https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo

      Cuckoo Cycle is a new proof of work system with the following features

      1) proofs take the form of a length 42 cycle in the Cuckoo graph, so that verification only requires computing 42 hashes.

      2) the graph size (number of nodes) can scale from 1*2^10 to 7*2^29 with 4 bytes needed per node, so memory use scales from 4KB to 14GB

      3) running time is roughly linear in memory, at under 1s/4MB

      4) there is no time-memory trade-off, and memory access patterns are the worst possible, making the algorithm constrained by memory latency

      5) it has a natural notion of difficulty, namely the number of edges in the graph; above about 60% of size, a 42-cycle is almost guaranteed, but below 50% the probability starts to fall sharply

    7. Re:Bitcoins weakness by guacamole · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Instead of selling hardware to miners, the manufacturers can mine themselves as long as the current difficulty level makes it profitable or sell the hardware to their buddies living close to foundries in China, while the rest of suckers across the pacific wait for months for their orders. Once the orders finally ship, the difficulty level goes up and the hardware becomes obsolete and the regular folks are happy to simply break even, if at all. Who could have thought years ago that ASIC manufacturers are the ones who will make the most profit and possibly get to control the bitcoin, but they're really close.

  21. Good article with several solutions by De+Lemming · · Score: 2

    Bitcoin Magazine has a good article on this subject: Mining Pool Centralization At Crisis Levels. It also suggests a number of solutions.

    The primary solution is for miners to switch to a peer-to-peer mining pool. In these the control is decentralized, just like the Bitcoin network itself. Even if such a pool hits 51% market share, it will not be able to actually block or reverse transactions, since the mining pool is decentralized and so its power is vested in the network as a whole.

    1. Re:Good article with several solutions by Burz · · Score: 1

      Uh, does the underlying Bitcoin format and protocol make this P2P arrangement necessary to mine any new coins? Can it be fundamentally changed to do so? No?

      I suspect the good journalists at Bitcoin Mag have enjoyed one too many bongs this week, and had a sudden vision of people working against their own self-interest.

      The formation of mining cartels is strongly encouraged by Bitcoin's internal structure.

    2. Re:Good article with several solutions by codebonobo · · Score: 1

      Uh, does the underlying Bitcoin format and protocol make this P2P arrangement necessary to mine any new coins? Can it be fundamentally changed to do so? No?

      Anyone can solo-mine. The advantage of mining in a pool is you can get quicker payouts and collaborating to mine allows you to have a small advantage and get greater rewards because of the rapid rise in difficulty thus being rewarded a fraction of a solved block earlier is more profitable than waiting to solve your own as the hash-rate difficulty rises. Here is an easy way to understand the difference between a p2p mining pool and centralized one. 1)GHash.IO is like a union of independent contractors who can come and go at anytime and the operators can choose to damage bitcoins reputation if their union membership ever increased over 50%. It would be irrational for them to do so but not impossible. Double spending has been done a couple times before during the last hard fork with one transaction of ~10K but the user returned the money. If the operators of GHash.IO decided to perform this attack they would slightly ruin bitcoins reputation and cause a mass exodus of their miners which would instantly stop their behavior by the loss in hashing power. 2) P2P mining pools are like a union of independent contractors without any leaders who can execute double spend attacks even if their hashing power exceeds 50%. They get the same benefits of cooperative mining but are restricted in a framework where no one can manipulate the blockchain.

  22. Exchanging one set of masters for another? by QilessQi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't have strong feelings about Bitcoin either way, but as I understand it some folks support Bitcoin because it isn't controlled by a central bank or government.

    Except it seems that one large mining pool -- or a consortium of smaller ones seeming independent but in truth acting together -- can game the system in certain ways. In short, controlling it. And given that large sums of money are on the line already, is Bitcoin really that different from any other currency?

    1. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is Bitcoin really that different from any other currency?

      Yes. It's a much worse store of value.

    2. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by JcMorin · · Score: 1

      Yep but people *CAN* join another pool if they want. And that WILL happened, I expect their percentage to drop to 30% in the next month. A centralized authority like the government or the central bank you CAN'T bypass it. The voluntary aspect makes a big difference. People just warn that 40% is too much because once you have majority you can do nasty thing.

    3. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why don't they just add mining pool origin to the stratum protocol so coins from a rogue pool can be tagged and destroyed? (it is possible to destroy coins)

    4. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by Tynin · · Score: 1

      I expect their percentage to drop to 30% in the next month.

      Yup, and it is already almost there. List of major pools

    5. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep but people *CAN* join another pool if they want. And that WILL happened

      I'm curious as to why? Out of the goodness of people's hearts?

      If the Internet has taught me anything, it's that people will act like dicks because they can, whether it's trolling their friends on Facebook, posting about hot grits on Slashdot, or toppling Magic Internet Money.

    6. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      some folks support Bitcoin because it isn't controlled by a central bank or government

      As a wise man once said, "A fool and his money are soon parted."

      Fiat currency works by military might and civil engineering. The government bootstraps these without any currency, so it prints some IOU's to pay for the supplies and materials needed. Those become the currency. As more military crap and civil works projects are built, more funny-money flows from the government to the citizenry. At some point, that "funny-money" reaches critical mass and becomes acceptable fiat currency. It loses the "funny". The reverse process is taxation, where the currency issuer demands some of the IOU's be forgiven in exchange for the services they provide with the supplies and materials they purchased with those IOU's. This is a necessary process for a stable currency. Without it, a currency is vulnerable to hoarders, just like BitCoin.

      The US Dollar has a pretty good track record, as do most modern currencies. But the USA is actually older than the dollar. Look up the "Continental" sometime. It was first issued in 1775 and was worth 1/40th of face value by 1780. It could later be used to buy treasury bonds for 1/100th of its original value. This massive collapse of the first attempt at federal money was the reason there's language in the constitution preventing states from printing their own money.

      is Bitcoin really that different from any other currency?

      Yes. Bitcoin is issued by computers to computers in exchange for a "service" of cryptographically analyzing the currency itself. The currency exists for the work, and the work for the currency. It stands upon nothing and is destined for failure. The fools caught in its crash will be parted from their real money due to currency exchange being available before the currency has a chance to prove itself of any real value.

      Now, if Silk Road were allowed to continue unabated, then it would have its place. But that just ended up pissing on the hornets' nest, and now the hornets are both pissed off and pissed on, making them extra super-duper angry. They'll bury it before it gets a chance to grow into something useful outside of their control. (They'll fuckin' bury it! [throws chair at BitCoin])

    7. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by Junta · · Score: 1

      If BitCoin became particularly pervasive, then a sufficiently well-resourced organization could brute force their way to the top. It's essentially an arms race. It's not even like it is necessarily *obvious* if they play it right (the sum of a set of seemingly unrelated pools could actually be under a singular interest and collude to mess with things.

      You can make the same argument about 'the government' or the 'central bank'. Sure, you can bypass it if you have enough resources. The cost, risk, and consequences just aren't worth it in something like the US at the moment. Sometimes a critical mass of people think it is worth it to bypass, then you have overthrown governments and collapsed currencies. It's generally a nasty, terrible process, but if bitcoin were in a position in the ballpark of 'the currency', you can bet that 'law enforcement' and/or 'military' sorts of manpower would start manifesting to protect whatever dominant interest comes along and the process to 'fix' bitcoin would be on the order of any fiat currency.

      What bitcoin zealots fail to realize is that the challenge of 'economic' control can't be fixed by math. Economies are ultimately governed by the collective will of the participants, not by some mathematical goodness in the system. We use currency and math to abstract things away to have a sort of quantitative feel to the whole shenanigan and to have *some* reference point, but the driving human nature behind it is what shapes the big picture.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    8. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by E-Rock · · Score: 1

      Because the people contributing to the pool aren't the people controlling the pool.

      So when the hashes that I want to be earning me BTC are giving a group the ability to mess up the system, a rational choice would be to move to a new pool.

    9. Re:Exchanging one set of masters for another? by QilessQi · · Score: 1

      It's not even like it is necessarily *obvious* if they play it right (the sum of a set of seemingly unrelated pools could actually be under a singular interest and collude to mess with things.

      Exactly. Everyone is focused on the problems when any one pool gets too big that they ignore the obvious precedent -- stealth takeovers of corporations by a syndicate of minority shareholders who together have controlling interest. There doesn't even have to be a single controlling entity. Just a collection of individual concerns who agree to act in concert to achieve a particular end.

      Another observation, in answer to those who say that you'd never be able to corrupt a pool because you'd have to convince all the pool members to change their client software to the corrupted version:

      Nowadays, it seems that people are far less likely to deploy mining rigs of their own even when they join a pool. Instead they purchase mining contracts with folks who already have the big iron (http://www.bitcoinforsale.net/). As hardware advances continue, it's even less advantageous for individuals who do have rigs to pay for upgrades, and more likely for them to just give up the arms race and purchase contracts with the big pools.

      So a large, successful pool might eventually have most or even all of its bitcoin clients under the control of several mining companies, each of which is selling contracts and operating server farms full of big iron with big network pipes. The smaller companies don't do as well, so they don't attract as many customers, and eventually most will either dissolve or get bought out by the larger companies.

      So you might have pool A mining 12% of bitcoins, but pool A is almost exclusively composed of independent mining companies A1, A2, and A3, plus a few inconsequential companies and scattered individuals with their own rigs. Similar for pools B, C, D and E. A scenario like that results in almost 60% of bitcoin mining being controlled by 15 corporate entities, each with about 4% of the pie. Which probably boils down to 15 smart, ambitious, and already-wealthy CEOs.

      Sooner or later -- especially if Bitcoin begins to slip in value, and a bad future is looming on the horizon -- those 15 people might sit in a conference room together and figure out a way to get even richer by gaming the system before it falls apart. Even if the gaming of the system is what ensures the collapse. As long as they can escape with their own holdings turned into non-bitcoin assets before the bust.

      My understanding of the nuances of bitcoin mining is limited, but it seems to me that this is how the real world operates, and has operated for a long, long time.

  23. Because it's expensive by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Doing this would mean diverting funds from their other evil plans^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hinvestment opportunities.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  24. Why not? by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

    But can a network relying on such assurances survive in the long run?

    Are there other networks we use that rely on such assurances? ICANN comes to mind.

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  25. Screw Bitcoin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Coinye is the crypto currency of our generation!

  26. The NSA is pretty much dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the new super-secret stuff is now being done by the*ack**gack*NO CARRIER

  27. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are assuming that the miners are in for making money from Bitcoin. However, what if the group that gets 51% actually has a different goal? For example, imagine a government wanted to destroy Bitcoin, for whatever reason. Then they could, with government money, put up a giant mining pool (and with government resources they might even be able to hide the fact that it is a pool instead of many independent miners, and certainly that the government is involved), get 51% and then do random attacks.

  28. lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ha-ha-ha... That was quick

  29. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by QilessQi · · Score: 1

    Or possibly this:

    1. Find (or create through other agents) an index fund tied to the value of BTC.
    2. Short BTC.
    3. Use your mining pool's 51% position to compromise the BTC network, driving participant confidence (and hence value down).
    4. Profit.

    Illegal? Oh, probably. That doesn't seem to dissuade people.

  30. Not without regulation by multimediavt · · Score: 2

    But can a network relying on such assurances survive in the long run?

    Answer: NO!

    And, here comes the bear trap that any sane person knew was coming for this unregulated currency. Regulations will have to be put in place, which means govts will have to get involved in order for it to survive, and that has been the central reason why I and many others have remained skeptical and completely wary of this cryptocurrency from the beginning. Markets don't self regulate. It's a lie, a myth and history has already demonstrated numerous times that when there's money involved there's corruption involved. Take away any sane regulations and you have a major ripoff in the making. I am never going to deal in BitCoins, ever. Won't have any, won't take any. Give me money backed by a central reserve bank, thank you very much. Take your unregulated, make believe currency somewhere else.

    P.S. It is make believe because it only has value to those who use and accept it. That it shares with real currency, except BitCoin is backed by dubious sources, at best. Again, no thanks. My $0.02/£0.02/€0.02.

  31. We promise we'll be good by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 2

    GHash.IO does not have any intentions to execute a 51% attack

    Yeah, and that Level 18 stronghold on Game of War: Fire Age promised not to attack me either. I don't need to tell you how that worked out.

  32. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by bobbied · · Score: 1

    How on earth do you short BTC?

    It's not like BTC is currently traded by brokers and I don't know anybody who is selling BTC future contracts.

    If you know a way to do this, let me know.. There is serious $$ to be made here.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  33. Mining Pools Are Stupid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I still have no idea why they are even a thing.
    There should be one and only one. And it should be decentralized so NOBODY can control it.

    The whole idea of mining pools annoys me.
    It is such a retarded system.

  34. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Yea, it wouldn't take that much $$ to pretty much sink BTC, at least from the perspective of a government that borrows 1 Trillion a year. Once you sink BTC, you can hand the assets over to the NSA for breaking crypto or take on some other crypto currency.

    Seriously, I don't think the government cares about BTC, at least while you don't use it to break the law (not reporting income, laundering money etc).

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  35. GHASH.IO already did an attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is very clear evidence that ghash.io ALREADY used their hashing power to execute a double-spend attack on the network (at less than 50% hashing power):

    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327767.60

    I wouldn't trust them an inch. Now the question is whether Bitcoiners are the same kind of sheeple that believe in the good intentions of governments. With ghash.io being a part of the new government of the Bitcoin world.

    I have the impression the miners are stupid enough to not care, to not switch, and Bitcoin will come crashing down when the next round of attacks happen due to this.

  36. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by QilessQi · · Score: 1

    I put it in as Step 1: Find (or create through other agents) an index fund tied to the value of BTC.

    Yeah, overly simplistic I know, but the OP said that it wouldn't be in any mining pool's interest to devalue Bitcoin, so my mind went to a scenario where that mining pool first converts its entire BTC holdings to something like USD, then wagers heavily with those USD that BTC will crash, then crashes BTC. Profit.

  37. Re: trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did the developer pre-mine a bunch of coins that he/she is hoarding up secretly, waiting for everyone else to "establish" the coin as a viable currency, only to dump all of it in the future and crash the market -- walking away with the loot?

    This is addressed by the newspaper headline embedded in the genesis block. There's no conceivable way to embed that headline in advance. Any block that doesn't ultimately link back to the genesis block is invalid, so it doesn't matter how many blocks he previously created.

    Is there some sort of "back door" designed into a particular crypto-coin so the developer has a way to "cheat" and obtain coins more quickly than everyone else, bypassing the usual rules for mining one?

    First, the client is Open Source, so you can study the code to make sure that it really follows the protocol. If you want to be completely sure, you can also write your own client. Moreover, the protocol is open for inspection as well, so you can convince yourself that it works as described. Remains the cryptography used. But that is just standard cryptography, therefore the only way he could exploit it is if he had found a weakness in those standard algorithms (and frankly, if he did, the Bitcoins should be the least of your worry).

  38. Can we build a pool into the protocol somehow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That way mining wouldn't be a lottery like now but instead some kind of wage labor. This might be crazytalk.

  39. Hghly recommend you find out what money is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Usually interest on debt is higher than inflation, so that doesn't work."

    Honestly. Think about it. Where does money come from. What happens when you pay a debt? So where does the money come from to pay the debt? Therefore there must be how much money in the future to pay the interest and debt combined?

    Therefore inflation *must* what?

  40. Bad Summary by tom229 · · Score: 1
    The summary of this press release seems to have a bit of an agenda. The release more importantly states:

    We have put a plan in place to see that 51% of all hashing power, will not be maintained by Ghash.IO by executing the following actions

    - We will temporarily stop accepting new independent mining facilities to the Ghash.IO pool.

    - We will implement a feature, allowing CEX.IO users to mine bitcoins from other pools. So when they purchase GH/s they can put it towards any pool they choose.

    So they are actively trying to prevent 51% monopolization of the network, not just asking us to trust them.

    If you're really concerned you could use a distributed pool. Which is probably what everyone should be doing anyways.

    --
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    1. Re:Bad Summary by Burz · · Score: 1

      The thing you're missing here is that new miners will naturally join the next-largest pool, which will then threaten Ghash's position as the pool with the best mining odds.

      Then something like corporate politics will take over... if not at Ghash then Ghash will eventually become unprofitable and fail, and their nearest competitor will avoid the decision that Ghash made.

      IOW, "if we don't do it, somebody else will so it might as well be us 'cuz were a bunch of great guys". The common rationalization of an unregulated market.

    2. Re:Bad Summary by tom229 · · Score: 1

      How do you regulate a world mining market? You can't.

      I really don't understand what all the people arguing for bitcoin regulation are arguing for. How (and why would you) regulate a simple store of value or medium of trade? Should the UN start arresting people that mine in an "unapproved" way? Who decides what's approved and unapproved and who enforces it? At best you could regulate mining at a national level, and pools will just move to countries without regulation.

      The only option for bitcoin is self-regulation, because that is how it's designed. That being said, a 51% double spending attack has always been a legitimate concern with the design of the bitcoin network. Methods have been created (such as proof of stake) in altcoins to potentially solve this problem but none of them have gained traction yet. Time will tell if a 51% attack will be a major problem for bitcoin; personally, I think it just may be.

      However, bitcoin apponents should avoid getting idealistic about regulations and using such ideals to equate bitcoin to some libertarian agenda. Regulation isn't always a bad thing, but it is also not a perfect solution to all things. Government regulation relies entirely on an inheritant trust in the regulating body, which is starting to prove to be a massive risk.

      Regulate bitcoin? My argument to that is both how? And why?

      --
      If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  41. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by bobbied · · Score: 1

    So "profit" step is pretty much not going to happen because the first step is not going to happen.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  42. How is this even a problem? by h0oam1 · · Score: 1

    Over 55% of GHash.io hashpower is miners who have chosen to mine on that pool voluntarily, because it is currently in their best interest to do so. If ghash.io starts to use it's hashpower for nefarious purposes, those miners will certainly no longer perceive mining on ghash.io to be in their best interest, and will take their hashpower elsewhere. Having 51% of the network hashpower makes it theoretically possible to do bad things, but actually doing those bad things would certainly result in losing a large part of that hashpower, thus negating the threat. It's just like US democracy. Being the party in power gives you the theoretical power to do evil, but if the voters find out that you are doing evil, you probably won't have that power for long. What am I missing here?

    1. Re:How is this even a problem? by Tynin · · Score: 1

      It isn't a problem, and it is already correcting itself. Currently they are at 37% network hash power and appears to still be dropping.

  43. Also the only thing that keeps mining profitable by grimJester · · Score: 1

    If ASICs were available to anyone, the price of bitcoins would be capped by the price of electricity (+ some investment costs for the hardware). Of course, it would be capped by the lowest price of electricity anywhere, so mining would become unprofitable for most current miners. It would be interesting to see what happens then.

    How long until someone starts using bitcoin mining instead of storage for temporary overproduction of solar power?

  44. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by th1nk · · Score: 1

    How on earth do you short BTC?

    It's not like BTC is currently traded by brokers and I don't know anybody who is selling BTC future contracts.

    If you know a way to do this, let me know.. There is serious $$ to be made here.

    bitfinex.com

  45. Now compare to the Federal Reserve by mi · · Score: 1

    But can a network relying on such assurances survive in the long run?

    Why would it be worse, than the traditional fiat-money systems? Where the government prints — and spends — melting out people's savings...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Now compare to the Federal Reserve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there's a compelling reason to switch...

    2. Re:Now compare to the Federal Reserve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know this isn't a popular view here, but some of us still believe that government, while not perfect, does generally have some sort goal (at least) towards the public good. Then again, maybe that's even more of a priority for this group of Bitcoin miners.

    3. Re:Now compare to the Federal Reserve by mi · · Score: 1

      Some AC over there is arguing, that inflation is good. Sorry, it is not. That argument is bogus to the extreme... If I have $100 today, I should be able to buy the same amount of bread, milk, or fuel for my car ten years from now — without doing anything with the money. Now, if I did something — like invested or even simply deposited to a savings account — it should grow. But simply holding it in a jar, the value of that $100 ought to remain the same. Unfortunately, that's not the case... And while the exact reasons can be "complex", the underlying problem is the same: the government can print money without limit — as much as may be needed to satisfy a political agenda.

      Before the fiat money, American government had to be bold and explicit about confiscating citizens' savings. Today they are so subtle about it, people are telling each other, how good an idea it is...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  46. And you can take that to the bank! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or...not.

  47. Re: trust by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

    So yeah, it really is a "choose your poison" situation -- but IMO, my own government has proven itself shady, not at all trustworthy, and relatively inept at accomplishing stated goals in a timely manner and under budget. By contrast, the people running the mining pools and exchanges I've used are still more of an "unknown" - but ones who so far, appear to have treated me fairly. So I know which one I'd rather place trust in right now.

    To do a currency transaction? How about, umm, use cash? That is, in the actual government currency?

    I don't know what country you live, so I don't know your government. Nevertheless, it's increasingly difficult to live by cash alone, but as long as you aren't doing huge transactions, in most countries it's still possible to do most of your business in cash, i.e., the "government endorsed" currency.

    For most government currencies, at least in the short term, using cash means something that has relatively stable value. Even with craziness like the NSA scandals, I doubt most governments are really trying to track ALL cash transactions -- unless you're doing something illegal and/or using large amounts of bills, probably not as much to worry about.

    I don't put a lot of faith in my government to always do the right thing. But if my choice is "get green piece of paper -- hand it to person I'm paying" vs. "depend on whole networks of unknown internet folks to not manipulate the currency or the various sets of transactions I have to go through to get the money to the person I'm pay in any way"... well, I know which I'd choose.

    If you were only talking about electronic transactions to remote people (requiring credit cards, wire transfers, whatever), perhaps we can have an argument. But unless your country is going through some sort of major political or economic upheaval (in which case, probably any currency and any transactions are going to be problematic), the ease of transaction for cash is hard to beat in terms of reliability.

  48. Put it in writing by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

    Promises aren't worth shit unless you're willing to put them in writing.

    1. Re:Put it in writing by Cardoor · · Score: 1

      hurray for Neville! hurray mr. chamberlain!

  49. My Take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I find most interesting about this is that this is an open system, a transparent community that is bring issues to light. In current financial systems, individuals, small groups or institutions control vast sums of the monetary flow with little or no transparency. If bitcoin does fail, at least we know why unlike how we are left guessing with so many other monetary systems.

    I like this new world we live in....

  50. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by QilessQi · · Score: 1

    A thought experiment, nothing more. But I almost never say never about anything. All we're really talking about is wagering. If I want to bet US$1000 that BTC will decrease in value, all I need to do is find someone who is willing to bet US$1000 that it won't.

  51. The Fact That The Attack Is Possible Is The Issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At some point, Bitcoin will have to compete against 2nd generation currencies that do not have this flaw.

  52. Not just one pool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't need a single pool to reach majority, this attack is possible if multiple smaller pools collude together. The higher the value of bitcoin is the higher chance that something like this will happen.

  53. Re: trust by aissixtir · · Score: 1

    Yes sir, that`s why I believe bitcoin will fail sooner or later. I wish I am mistaken but I do believe at some point it will burst into zeros and ones. However, I am sure this will be the future but until something solid and trustful stands behind there is no way. I mean look, even RSA had dirty hands.

  54. Control of Bitcoin by Animats · · Score: 2

    Ghash.io's press release indicates that they have some ideas on where they want Bitcoin to go. They now have enoug power to force changes in the system.

  55. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  56. To Big to Fail, Redux by goombah99 · · Score: 2

    This souncs a lot like the too big to fail issue with our financial systems dependence on the sound judgement and intentions of banks. This banking problem arose when glass-stegal's repeal essentially deregualted banks and let them manage their own affairs.

    But acutally it harkens back much further. In the early days of the US there was no common currency. banks issued their own script and this failed when the banks manipulated it. Later on after we had a common currency, we still had too much exposure to bank mismangement. The federal reserve was not sufficient. And of course we all know about the depression.

    Bit coin lacks this sort of regulation. A bit coin "bank" does not have a federal reserve rate to assure that the money supply doesn't mulitply. And it has no regulation on too big to fail for these mining consortia.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:To Big to Fail, Redux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no "harken". Perhaps you meant "hearken". Sincerely, Your local Grammar Police deputy

    2. Re:To Big to Fail, Redux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are hereby dishonorably discharged from Grammar Police (see definition 2).

    3. Re:To Big to Fail, Redux by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      one would be dumb to take a loan denominated in bitcoin.
      Since the supply is limited, someone eventually loses (defaults) by simple math.
      With inflation, this doesn't have to happen, as new money enters the system.
      Which is why we have fiat.
      This is also why people get so cranky about "fractional reserve lending".

    4. Re:To Big to Fail, Redux by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      one would be dumb to take a loan denominated in bitcoin.
      Since the supply is limited, someone eventually loses (defaults) by simple math.
      With inflation, this doesn't have to happen, as new money enters the system.
      Which is why we have fiat.
      This is also why people get so cranky about "fractional reserve lending".

      I can't make the slightest bit of sense out of any of your assertions. Why would I not want to make a loan in bitcoin. People loaned gold for millennia and it's supply is limited. The purpose of interest on loans is precisely so everyone benefits. And inflation has nothing at all to do with the viability of a loan-- it's completely compensated by the interest rate. No this is not why we have Fiat money or just as sensibly, by we have Fiat cars. And I suspect you have no clue what fracitional reserve lending is.

      Did you write this or did your cat sit on the keyboard?

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    5. Re:To Big to Fail, Redux by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      And I suspect you have no clue what fracitional reserve lending is.

      Most people don't. They assume its something the "evil" banks do to steal your money. Bitcoin fans seem to have even a poorer grasp that others on average. And yet one of the main bitcoin faqs points out that fractional banking is quite possible with bitcoin.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    6. Re: To Big to Fail, Redux by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      then think harder dimwit. I'm not going to lift for you. Step out of your thorough econ101 understanding and do your own diligence.

    7. Re: To Big to Fail, Redux by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      What's the matter anyways do you have a 7 digit UID it something?

  57. So. How big of a botnet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To exceed the magical 51% and what havoc could be wrought by one who did?

  58. Re:Also the only thing that keeps mining profitabl by ZouPrime · · Score: 1

    In 30 years, the most profitable company in the world will be General Bitcoin. They will have developed their own nuclear reactors and designed their own computing technologies in order to be the very last organisation able to generate bitcoins, slowly but surely, one at a time. Huge amount of resources, beyond those available to most countries, will be spend in order to slowly grow the amount of bitcoins available. What a fantastic utopia we have here.

  59. Why keep mining? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would anyone keep mining in a pool which is attacking the network? Pool operators (or whoever hacks them) might want a quick buck, but anyone who has spent thousands of dollars on a piece of hardware (that MIGHT pay for itself after months) will probably want to recoup their investment.

  60. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by codebonobo · · Score: 1

    Current estimated cost to sink BTC with a 51% attack: http://www.coinometrics.com/bitcoin/brix 1.9 billion as of this moment. Additionally, companies who sell Asic Mining hardware have self interest in the long-term strength of Bitcoin so deliberately distribute the equipment to as many different individuals as possible in the order queue. If a state wanted to create a 51% attack they would more likely have to create a foundry and produce their chips themselves and doing so covertly would be difficult.

  61. Don't Be Evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't Be Evil. *waits 3 years* - ok fuck it , execute a 51% !!!!!!

  62. Wrong, pooled miners do not have transaction visib by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The pool members don't even know what the transactions are except in the stratum protocol where the client can adjust a counter on a single transaction that gives them the ability to hash more with less interaction with the pool servers. The pool clients do not see the transaction histories being incorporated into the block. As such the pool client will mine what ever block the controllers of the pool want and have no visibility into the transactions aside from possibly the generation transaction which is always a payment to the pool.

  63. Re:Wrong, pooled miners do not have transaction vi by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    Ok so basically, the pool miners are designed specifically without any controls to prevent the pool operator from cheating? Nice. As I already mentioned in a previous post, that is ridiculous since it would be trivial to set it up such that the individual clients could (if they wanted to), double check to be sure they were mining for a legitimate and not a cheating pool.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  64. Cornering the market? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this like cornering the market on a commodity like silver or gold? While gash.io may be "close" to cornering it, won't it become extremely expensive to actually acquire the 51% necessary to corner the market as others jump into the market as the value of the mining computers rise? I understand they don't have 51% of the bitcoins and are just approaching 51% of the cryptographic network but it seems that action has economic consequences that would make it extremely difficult to realize like Gould's attempt to corner gold in 1869 or the Hunt's run at silver in the 70's and 80's?

  65. Re:Wrong, pooled miners do not have transaction vi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not in the BtC mining, but I can see how it really drops the requirements on the client - full fledged miner would need, for a start, more free disk space to hold the blockchain (~13Gb and growing), bigger pipe to the Web and faster CPU.

    So instead of big, expensive, noisy and electricity wasting solo mining PC, you could get a teeny-tiny RaspPi or alike to simply get commands from the pool and drive your army of ASIC miners (and use the savings to buy an extra miner).

  66. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by bobbied · · Score: 1

    they would more likely have to create a foundry and produce their chips themselves and doing so covertly would be difficult.

    I'm positive that they easily could if they wanted. They've prototyped, flight tested, build and deployed whole squadrons of stealth aircraft without much evidence in the public domain, if they wanted to do this, they could.

    But the real question is, *why* would they want to? I don't think they care.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  67. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1.9 billion? It's like, what, 5-10% of NSA budget? Doesn't seem too unreachable, especially if Big Finance decides Bitcoin is inconveniencing them and lends some help.

    To do it covertly, they'll need some more money to make the miners FPGA-based - they are already using those for high-frequency trading, so it's won't be suspicious and they've got pros to work on miners' design.

  68. Not enough by bscott · · Score: 1

    Would it not do more for the community they claim to be supporting if they were to cap their membership at 50% (allowing their current proportion to rebalance by attrition or as the rest of the network continues to grow) thus preventing anyone ELSE from doing it as well?

    --
    Perfectly Normal Industries
  69. Re: trust by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

    For starters, you have to put some trust in whoever developed the coin you're using -- because let's face it. The entire thing is just a piece of software that someone wrote.

    It's a piece of open source software everyone wherein anyone who's not a brain donor can verify it invalidates caches of "pre-mined" coins by extending the bit length of the proof of work, and requiring other miners to verify said block-chain. Like any investment endeavor early investors typically wind up with more profits. Might as well not use the stock market either if this is your concern -- I mean, you just described the IPO of Facebook or any web/software company.

    Instead of the barrier to entry caused by the stock market's low proof of work (transaction) that requires one to trade at or better speeds than high frequency traders, with Bitcoin you at least have a chance of solving the proof of work proportionate to how much hardware you throw at the problem -- even if it's far less than what others have. Too bad the stock market doesn't work like bitcoin.

  70. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by codebonobo · · Score: 1

    They've prototyped, flight tested, build and deployed whole squadrons of stealth aircraft without much evidence in the public domain, if they wanted to do this, they could.

    Many of the Bitcoin users are anarchists and libertarians, or in other words some of the most paranoid crowd around. It doesn't take many leaks or information for this crowd to freak out and start taking steps to protect the network if any rumor gets out. The government cannot keep much of a secret anymore as evidenced by wikileaks.

    But the real question is, *why* would they want to? I don't think they care.

    I think you are right. Bitcoin is insignificant and a joke in most of their eyes. This is good news for bitcoin as the network stability and security needs a few more years to mature without outside intervention to insure its current growth rate. At this stage its unlikely to be stopped by anyone but it certainly can be slowed.

  71. Re:Wrong, pooled miners do not have transaction vi by dbIII · · Score: 1

    You are making that mistake of thinking it was deliberately designed as an electronic currency with rigorous mechanisms and not a pyramid scheme with a false front to make it bait for geeks and gold bug libertarians.

  72. So, how big are botnets these days? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Changing the number won't help.
    How many malware miners would have to be pointed at a pool to get 75%? After that they move on to the next one. How much could be done when most of the bitcoin scheme participants are asleep?

  73. This flawed comparison again? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Like any investment endeavor early investors typically wind up with more profits

    Only far far more so by careful design. In fact so much so that the analogy doesn't hold up at all. See other pyramid schemes for a better thing to compare it to.

  74. Big, soft and pointless target by dbIII · · Score: 1

    There's lot's of people that call themselves libertarians. There's the outright anarchists as you've described and then there's the ones that would like those with old money to rule - a new feudal system with new Royalty backed by the gold standard. For some reason those new Royalists like to take George Washington's name in vain despite opposing nearly everything he stood for.
    Then there's people in the middle or off on other tangents who have nothing at all to do with such views. (Put in bold so the thin skinned won't reply the second they see the word anarchist). So many people call themselves libertarian that it's nothing but a self granted label that's supposed to make the person use it think they are a proud champion of liberty - even if they call for the death of Snowden, Manning etc whose acts were exactly what some libertarians were calling for.
    So there's no point making fun of libertarians. Every barb or compliment will apply somewhere. Agrarian socialists, fascists, royalists, anarchists and even democratic socialists that just hate the idea of Federal over State - they are all in there.

  75. Re:Wrong, pooled miners do not have transaction vi by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    Sure but you could still retain the option of double checking with a local PC that you are working on a legitimate block. Such checking wouldn't even have to be mandatory, if even a small but random population of miners in a pool bothered to check, it would make cheating by the operator much harder.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  76. Re: trust by Keybounce · · Score: 1

    Did the developer pre-mine a bunch of coins that he/she is hoarding up secretly, waiting for everyone else to "establish" the coin as a viable currency, only to dump all of it in the future and crash the market -- walking away with the loot?

    This is addressed by the newspaper headline embedded in the genesis block. There's no conceivable way to embed that headline in advance. Any block that doesn't ultimately link back to the genesis block is invalid, so it doesn't matter how many blocks he previously created.

    Actually, this is very serious the issue.

    Early bitcoin mining was fast, cheap, and generated lots of bitcoin for very little effort.

    If bitcoin had died, that would have been wasted.
    Instead, it's ... extremely large amounts of potential wealth horded by a very small group of early adopters, and the people who came up with this in the first place are the earliest adopters.

    Instead of people who inherited, or who can manipulate the dollar, the political behavior, the banking industry, etc, gaining all the money, it's now the people who manipulate others into saying "Hey, this new currency is better" who are gaining all the money.

    Either way, it's inherently biased and unfair. It's not based on the work you do / what you contribute, it's based on what you started with; who/what you knew/did early.

  77. Re:"But can a network relying on such assurances s by QilessQi · · Score: 1

    Yep, you're right:

    https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/howitworks

    I guess it was only a matter of time. :-)

  78. One reason among many... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...to just stay right the fuck away from shitcoin.