GPUs Dropping Dead In 2011 MacBook Pro Models

New submitter blackwizard writes "MacRumors is reporting on pervasive GPU failures in 2011 MacBook Pro machines, leading both to intermittent video issues, corruption, crashing/freezing, and eventually even failure to boot. Luckily for Apple, the machines are now out of warranty (unless you bought AppleCare). The issues have been reported both on Apple's own forums and other blogs. Apple has so far failed to take action on the problem. Will they take ownership of the issue, or continue to ask customers to pay for an entire new logic board when just the GPU fails?"

Comments

Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[dmiller1984]

If it's truly faulty hardware Apple will typically own up to it and offer repairs free of charge. I have the 2008 MBP that had a logic board issue and Apple replaced it for free even though I was well past the warranty and didn't have AppleCare.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ColdWetDog]

If it was faulty then it should have failed in the first days. That it happens three years later is a sign that the user is to blame.

For not buying a new machine after the warranty expires?

I am intrigued by your ideas and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit, Apple will do no such thing unless they face severe penalties. Here in Denmark it took several court cases regarding faulty design on the MBP, which Apple lost all of them - even then did Apple not want to own up and repair the affected MBPs, it wasn't until they faced severe repercussions they started fixing them.

By the way, I'm a happy MBP owner and will probably keep being one, just saying, don't expect them to go out of the way to help you.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Nvidia used to have a problem with solder joints breaking due to repeated thermal stress, i.e. the GPU expanding and shrinking as it heats up and cools down depending on the processing load and corresponding power consumption. Sony had a problem with camera sensors losing connections, which affected quite a few manufacturers who used Sony sensors. These problems are not the users' fault. They're manufacturing defects. Nevertheless, warranties are time-limited because shit happens and manufacturers can not realistically guarantee that their stuff works forever.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

A laptop built by my company has serious issues with GPUs dropping ead. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of laptops in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Rhywden]

Just think of what a boon this kind of thinking would be to the automobile industry!

A new car mandatory after three years.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[chmodman]

I have this model MBP, and yes, it failed exactly as described. I think the problem is made worse when paired with the thunderbolt screen, which forces the dedicated GPU to be used instead of the Intel GPU. It runs super HOT all the time, even when simply web browsing. Many have found a utility called smcFanControl to force the fan to run at full speed at all times in an attempt to compensate for a bad design. There are numerous YouTube video's of how to "cook" the logic board in an oven for 3 min @ 375 deg to reflow the solder and I found this does fix it temporarily, so its definitely a solder ball issue. Ultimately, I found a repair service on e-bay that for $150, replaces the solder balls on the BGA with lead balls (supposedly) and this is a more permanent fix. According to him (and he seems legit) the lead-free BGA balls suck, and over time fail with extended heat / use. I hope there is a class action on this one, because I paid almost $3k for this laptop and it only lasted 2 years!

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[amiga3D]

It's all the rage in appliances. Try buying a new major appliance without buying a warranty. When, not if, they fail you can count on a repair bill of 200 to 1000 dollars nowadays. If it's over three years old and you have no warranty then you might just as well buy a new one for what it'll cost unless you can repair it yourself. I fixed my refrigerator and while sitting at the appliance parts supply place waiting to pay 22 dollars for a part the guy next to me looked at it and laughed. I replace 7 or 8 of those a week he laughed. I asked what he charged and he told me 165 dollars. That was 8 years ago and I've replaced that same fucking part 3 times since then. I hate working on appliances but I hate taking it up the ass even more.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Bing Tsher E]

That's the Ford Pinto memo, eh? I doubt if anybody is going to leak Apple's modern equivalent.

Not that anybody is gonna die like with the Pinto, but the pangs of Mac withdrawal could be debilitating.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Bing Tsher E]

3. Keep remaining good hand clear of the Genius Bar.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[amiga3D]

That's good for bean counters that run most corporations these days. Eventually though you lose brand loyalty if you keep fucking your customers over. When that happens you become just another nothing special outfit. Apple can't afford that. If they lose the association of quality with their name they'll die.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it depends on who you speak to and how you speak to them, in the States the managers of Apple Stores are allowed to replace machines out of warranty for no cost at their own discretion. My mother in law's 4 year old MBP was replaced with a new model after repeated logic board failures (all of which was done for free)

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Carrot007]

> If it's truly faulty hardware Apple will typically own up to it and offer repairs free of charge.

You missed one important bit.

Applies only in the US. Fuck elsewhere we do not care about you.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[TheRaven64]

I've seen the opposite. In the UK, if you quote the Sale of Goods Act when you call them up, they'll quickly replace faulty parts 4 years after the original purchase. In the US, as soon as the warranty expires, you're fucked if anything goes wrong.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Just Some Guy]

That's not true. I bought a used, out-of-warranty iMac which developed bad capacitors (swollen and leaking) on the graphics card a year later. I called Apple and they replaced everything inside it without charging me a penny. I never heard of that being a big scandal, and in the US I doubt they had any legal obligations to fix my 3.5 year old used Mac.

I think a more accurate version is that sometimes Apple fixes things for free because they want to, and other times because they're forced to. There's no obvious way of knowing in advance which way an "event" will go.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[noh8rz10]

my wife had a problem where here macbook (the old white plastic ones) the palm rest cracked and they replaced it free, 3 years old. I had a problem with my 2009 macbook pro where the feet came off, they replaced it free. apple will take care of you. a lot of the rage here is an instinctive reaction from getting screwed over by so many companies. give apple a try.

also, the summary is a lie and FUD. Nowhere in the linked article does it use the word "pervasive". Here's the first sentence: "Many early and late–2011 MacBook Pro owners with discrete graphics cards seem to be experiencing GPU failures and system crashes on their machines." In this context, "many" can still mean 0.00001%.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Grishnakh]

What part was it? Was it electronic? I've seen a lot of consumer appliances and electronics failing because of bad capacitors (well after the "capacitor plague" of the early 2000s). It's a lot cheaper to replace a few caps than a whole board.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MightyYar]

I've also noticed that the high-end appliances seem to have more problems than the cheap stuff. Admittedly, I'm a small sample size, but I bought a house that had previously been owned by Orthodox Jews, and so there are two of everything in the kitchen. I haven't had to repair any of the cheaper appliances, but the expensive stuff keeps nickel and diming me.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[DigiShaman]

This is an industry wide issue thanks to RoHS. This isn't just Apple, this effects Dell and HP laptops that have high temp GPUs. The XBox 360 is another perfect example. The problem is caused from the constant thermal cycling causing expansion and contraction as it cools. Like bending a paper clip, over time metal fatigue sets in and cracks the solder.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[dgatwood]

That's not really a surprise. A few years ago, while trying to decide between two products made by a major electronics company, I asked one of their engineers for advice (having repeatedly repaired the previous product before giving up on it), and he suggested that if lifespan was a major concern, I should buy the cheaper model. Why? Because it was built in such volume that even a 1% failure rate would be catastrophic to the company's bottom line, whereas a much higher failure rate in the expensive product would still be a small enough number of total units that it could be absorbed.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[bill_mcgonigle]

This is an industry wide issue thanks to RoHS.

Yep, and the thermal profile of a laptop (and a thin one at that) makes it that much more of a difficult environment.

I wonder when or if we've seen the first deaths from RoHS - in safety-critical systems in healthcare or potentially dangerous environments. Lead is akin to kryptonite in the anti-DHMO circles that run government bureaucracies.

Remember, kids, GPU's are chips but you shouldn't put them in your mouth.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be too young to remember how US cars were made through the 50s through most of the 70s. It wasn't until the Japanese companies like Toyota and Datsin began to sell cars and small trucks in the US in the mid 1970s that outlived the American cars that US companies began to build decent autos.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[dgatwood]

We've almost certainly seen deaths. Some models of vehicles have frequent ABS module failures because of solder joints failing, even in the U.S., where RoHS doesn't apply. With lead-free solder, I'd expect those problems to be much more frequent, and every ABS unit that isn't working increases the odds of somebody being unable to avoid a car accident.

Mind you, chances are good that none of those deaths have been properly reported as being caused by RoHS, because the odds against someone noticing something as subtle as a defective ABS module during a post-crash investigation are astronomical.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[jd2112]

The Pinto Memo was famously quoted in 'Fight Club' which is what I believe the AC is referencing here.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I don't buy laptops (Apple, Dell or whatever) with "discrete" GPUs. I stay with the Intel GPUs. The last the life of the laptop from my experience. I don't game but I do watch movies and videos. Intel GPUs aren't as good as the discrete GPU but they last. nVidia had a lot of problems in the past decades. AMD usually doesn't. For an everyday, "it's got to work" laptop, Intel rocks/rules/is best. If I needed much better graphics, I would get a desktop with a replaceable GPU card--Mac Pro or a Dell.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Ingenium13]

No they don't. I had Power Mac G5, 3Ghz. I got it as soon as it came out. It was liquid cooled. I never put serious load on this system, I used it as a workstation but rarely was it ever running at 100% CPU usage. One day I noticed it shut off and wouldn't turn back on. Turns out the coolant had leaked out over the logic board, frying it. I had paid $3500 for the setup, it was 2 years old. Did some research and apparently the o-rings in the first few runs were known to be defective, and they silently switched to a different supplier later on because of it. They still refused to fix it unless I paid $1500 for a new logic board (maybe more depending on if more needed replaced). Not only that, the monitor I bought for it had the proprietary Apple connector, so was useless on any non-Apple computer.

I had been a huge Apple fan before this happened, but that was the last time I bought anything Apple.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Hamsterdan]

SO? mine is 40 years old and still humming along. My amplifier is a Marantz 2240 (1974) and up until a few weeks ago was running fine except for two burnt bulbs (no bad contact in the knobs either). Those old TVs I was seeing in the trash after Canada's analog cut off were pretty old and probably still working. They were building stuff to last back then. Need a 200 power supply? they built one that could give much more than that. Today, they will build a 210w one to save a few pennies.

A modern fridge won't last 15 years, that fancy LCD tv? dead in less than 10. People are accustomed to cheap Walmart stuff and will change stuff more often (which comes up more expensive in the long run)

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Hamsterdan]

What size fridge are you using that saves 500$ a year in energy???

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MightyMartian]

I will never buy another HP laptop after mine croaked twice; once under warranty (which was covered) and then again about four or five months afterwards. Both were due to the nVidia overheating problem and they didn't even have the decency to put a proper heat sync on it for the in warranty repair. Bought a cheapo Asus two years ago and it's still ticking.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[v1]

In the case of the 2008 and the 2.2/2.4 mbp's, the problem was actually Nvidia, fault, not Apple.. Apple pushes the design limits of their components pretty close to the edge to keep their designs small, light, and enduring. The frame and cooling was designed to only slightly exceed required cooling for nvidia's GPU, according to their provided specifications.

Nvidia lied about the cooling requirements of their GPU, describing it as requiring less cooling than it actually did. (probably as a selling point to get Apple to use it) As a result, the machine didn't adequately cool it under very high stress. (playing WoW for an extended time was a known cause of failure) As a result, boards and GPUs flexed, ball solder joints failed, and gpus stopped functioning. (this is not a gpu defect or a ball problem, it's a mechanical problem, caused by thermal stress due to inadequate cooling)

After Apple had encountered a larger number of in-warranty failures than expected, they contacted Nvidia, who denied the problem. Bad logic boards continued to pour in and get repaired under the one year warranty, but replaced boards were frequently failing again, and users were sometimes seeing 2-4 replacements within the first year. A few customers got a new machine per Apple's policy on "three major repairs within warranty", some of which had gpu failures on their replacement machines as well. Apple put their own engineers to work testing new GPUs, and found that the cooling requirements were significantly above Nvidia's stated specs.

Although they were aware of this issue well before the first year, Apple's SOP on an issue like this is to stay quiet until the units start dropping out of their first year's warranty, and then issue a Repair Extension on them. (probably trying to mitigate a drop in sales on a "defective model") Coverage time for REPs vary, and only extend the warranty on the specific part, and only for the specific failure. REPs typically extend coverage to the 2, 3, or 4 year point after purchase. It does not stack with applecare extended warranty. This REP I believe went the maximum at four years from date of purchase.

Apple has issued a dozen or so REPs in the last ten years. Considering the units sold, the variety of models offered, and the cutting-edge technology they'r fond of using, this is actually a pretty low failure rate, as well as a very good manufacturer's response.

2011 is not a new computer, it's going on three years old. Referring to them as "dropping dead" makes it sound like it's a very early failure (first year or so) I think the article is being sensational and a bit deceptive to link-bait. Apple expects their products to last 3-5 years before they get replaced. Considering how fast tech advances, and that Apple users typically want new and cutting-edge tech, this isn't at all unreasonable. With as many models as they make, there are going to be those that fail sooner than others, and that you can expect to get less than 7-8 years out of. This may just be one of them. It happens. And it can suck to be the unlucky one that owns one. But "only" getting three years out of a laptop may not be desirable, but it's hardly a travesty. If Apple were to refuse to cover failures inside the one year warranty, or not extend coverage to units failing frequently in the 2-3 year area, that'd be newsworthy. This really isn't.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[spire3661]

You are an idiot.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[vakuona]

Or it could be that people who buy cheaper appliances tend not to complain as frequently as those who buy expensive stuff.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[xaxa]

because the odds against someone noticing something as subtle as a defective ABS module during a post-crash investigation are astronomical.

Compare the effort that goes into investigating a rail accident (example -- a derailment with no injuries, a 41-page report concluding with learning points and recommendations) to the not-much that happens after a road accident.

I'd like to see more effort spent investigating road accidents -- perhaps choosing a small sample to thoroughly investigate.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[amorsen]

I can guarantee that a non-working ABS would be detected in very close to 100% of investigations of deadly accidents in Denmark. Whether they would be detected during the stupid mandatory car check done every two years I am not sure.

Alas, practically no fatalities in Denmark are due to faults with the cars, at least not faults which makes the car illegal to drive (like broken ABS), and Denmark is a bit infamous for the average age of its vehicles.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[viperidaenz]

No, if it happens to a very small number of users, then it might be the user. If it happens to many users from all over the place, its the product.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[twilight30]

This sounds to my [admittedly uneducated] ears just like the yellow light of death issues affecting the PS3, particularly the launch models. Same issue, more or less; the PS3 gets cooked when the lead-free solder cracks and allows the GPU to physically separate from the board.

[I am sad, I have a launch model that's been taken in twice for reflowing; it's now failed a third time, so no more]

I did have a 2011 mbp as well, but a 13" without the discrete graphics that I've since passed to my girlfriend. I reckon the next revision of the retina MBP will likely remove discrete cards altogether. =(

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[viperidaenz]

A place I worked at lost a whole bunch of hard drives from HP laptops just after the warranty expired.
Turned out the HP sticker they put on the drives covered the ventilation hole that says "do not cover".

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

The sale of goods and services act actually requires 6 year life times (that's what's considered reasonable) for all electronic goods. So you're diddling yourself out of 4 years by buying on the continent.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[amorsen]

UK breaches EU warranty laws.

Indeed, and consumer organizations are colluding with the industry on this issue, misinforming consumers about the EU laws. They only provide the information that by EU law, after 6 months, the consumer has to prove that the fault was caused by a problem which was there from the time of manufacture. They neglect to mention that the way you prove this is to write a statement "I have handled the equipment with reasonable care and not done anything to it which would be expected to cause the problem" (assuming this is true of course, otherwise you are risking perjury). You do NOT have to send the equipment to an expert and have them certify this.

However, the UK courts are unlikely to rule with the consumer on this issue and there is no way to appeal to an EU court, so the UK can keep its illegal interpretation of EU law going forever.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Antony T Curtis]

This is an industry wide issue thanks to RoHS. This isn't just Apple, this effects Dell and HP laptops that have high temp GPUs. The XBox 360 is another perfect example. The problem is caused from the constant thermal cycling causing expansion and contraction as it cools. Like bending a paper clip, over time metal fatigue sets in and cracks the solder.

AFAIK, they still use tin-lead based solder in medical equipment, even the new stuff, for this reason. The consumer industry went along with the RoHS stuff because they knew it was a form of built-in obsolescence. Even the tin whisker problem has been known about since the 1960s.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[sjames]

3 years IS an early death. Even my ten year old white box specials still run just as well as they ever did. It's reasonable to expect more from a premium brand.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[viperidaenz]

So don't drive your car when the ABS warning light is on.
It's one of the systems that goes through a full self-test every time it turns on.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[viperidaenz]

Stopped reading after the first paragraph. Since it is Apple that does the system design and manufacturing, it is entirely their responsibility to make sure the design works. If the nVidia part fails to work within their design requirements, they should be selecting a different part.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[davester666]

Unfortunately with Apple, the process is nested inside a "if the problem has received widespread public attention"

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[pjbgravely]

Those failures were on Bosch anti-lock units. The failure was caused by ultrasonic joint going bad. The fix is to replace the joints with solder. I had it done to my failed unit and it has worked perfectly ever since.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[drinkypoo]

With tin, you get whiskers. With lead, you get the solder pushed out of the way by thermal cycling. Is there any winning?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[bill_mcgonigle]

For not buying a new machine after the warranty expires?

Yeah ... so I used to buy Apple laptops and was happy with them (I left when they decided to focus on iOS and slowly end the Macintosh). But that aside -

If you're an Apple customer and you use your machines for work, what you need to do is to buy AppleCare with the laptop, and then when AppleCare has two months left, sell it on eBay. If there are any problems with the laptop, send it in for a tune-up before you put it on eBay as that will increase its resale value.

It's the most cost effective and least worrisome way to be an Apple owner - you can easily own a nice laptop for $5-700/year. That person paying $1200 for your laptop is only going to get the same yearly value and then get rid of it after a couple years, but he's going to be doing so without the insurance protection and he's got to live with a 3-year-old laptop. But that's how the market seems to work.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[AmiMoJo]

It's basically luck if they happen to acknowledge your particular fault, in which case as you say they will usually fix it. If they don't though... Like the manufacturing defects in iMac screens, for example.

Faulty moisture sensors was the other classic one. Took a lawsuit to sort that out. On the other hand they admitted the iPhone 4 antenna problem fairly quickly and gave everyone rubber bumpers. Who knows how they decide what to fix and what to pretend doesn't exist.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[AmiMoJo]

Nvidia lied about the cooling requirements of their GPU, describing it as requiring less cooling than it actually did.

This is not true. Nvidia simply did not test their hardware through enough thermal cycles to discover that the soldering would fail after some time, typically 12-18 months. No malice, just incompetence. You probably got the impression that they lied because a common fix, suggested by themselves, was to underclock the GPU or increase cooling, but that was simply an attempt to reduce thermal cycling load and get the parts past the mandatory 2 year EU warranty.

Apple put their own engineers to work testing new GPUs, and found that the cooling requirements were significantly above Nvidia's stated specs.

Seems like an incredible waste of time considering the problem was well known and every other manufacturer was experiencing it. HP were worst off because they had a deal with Nvidia to supply GPUs and chipsets for almost all their consumer laptops and many of the business models. Just google a bit, it was no secret what was happening.

Although they were aware of this issue well before the first year, Apple's SOP on an issue like this is to stay quiet until the units start dropping out of their first year's warranty, and then issue a Repair Extension on them. .... REPs typically extend coverage to the 2, 3, or 4 year point after purchase.

That's fine for the US market but in the EU the statutory warranty period is 2 years, and many countries go well beyond that. In the UK this issue is covered for up to 6 years, regardless of any Apple policies.

Apple expects their products to last 3-5 years before they get replaced.

In the UK products must last a "reasonable length of time" and are covered against manufacturing defects during that period. For laptop computers courts have settled on 6 years, so every manufacturer should design their laptops to last that long.

In fairness Apple's generally do, but if your Macbook died of GPU failure due to this issue after 5 years they would still be required to either replace it or offer a partial refund.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[AmiMoJo]

The question is would more people have died from lead and other hazardous substance pollution than have died because of defective solder joints? Can defective soldering even be blamed on RoHS, when slightly more expensive but much more reliable lead free solder is available to those who choose to pay for it?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[devphaeton]

Not an appliance, but I just repaired my 19" Acer LCD a couple of weeks ago. It had a few bad caps so I replaced all of them, and now it's good as GNU^H^H^Hnew.

Total cost was around $5 in parts, though the bummer was $6 shipping. But what can you do? $11 is still cheaper than a new LCD.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet it took a couple of years and multiple (threats of) lawsuits in several EU countries to live up to the EU warranties.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not really a surprise. A few years ago, while trying to decide between two products made by a major electronics company, I asked one of their engineers for advice (having repeatedly repaired the previous product before giving up on it), and he suggested that if lifespan was a major concern, I should buy the cheaper model. Why? Because it was built in such volume that even a 1% failure rate would be catastrophic to the company's bottom line, whereas a much higher failure rate in the expensive product would still be a small enough number of total units that it could be absorbed.

Pardon my ignorance, but why would Orthodox Jews have duplicate appliances?

I'm not being an ass, I'm genuinely curious.

Thanks.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MrHanky]

You're right. Nothing ever is Apple's fault.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Grishnakh]

I think Digi-Key has a super-cheap first class shipping option for small orders. Mouser also has a cheaper option I think.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[TheGratefulNet]

heat sync

heat sink.

a heat sync, otoh, would be when you are running too many concurrent rsync jobs.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Mashiki]

Warranties do not, and should not last forever

Really? Can you explain why the videocard that I bought from evga has a lifetime warranty on it. And funny enough the difference in price at the time was $3 compared to the nearest competitor.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[bill_mcgonigle]

I've had satellite receivers crap out and I've had to heat-gun the chips back into connection. It's a real great way to generate mountains of e-waste - most people don't put a heat gun to their electronics' motherboards.

RoHS was supposed to be about e-waste, but maybe they forgot about unintended consequences.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Second law of thermodynamics says 'no', though it allows some wiggle room with regard to how fast you die.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[dreamchaser]

Because it's not Kosher if dairy and meat are prepared together, mostly.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[EuclideanSilence]

The workers in the sweatshop who put it there probably couldn't read English.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

SO? mine is 40 years old and still humming along. My amplifier is a Marantz 2240 (1974) and up until a few weeks ago was running fine except for two burnt bulbs (no bad contact in the knobs either). Those old TVs I was seeing in the trash after Canada's analog cut off were pretty old and probably still working. They were building stuff to last back then. Need a 200 power supply? they built one that could give much more than that. Today, they will build a 210w one to save a few pennies.

A modern fridge won't last 15 years, that fancy LCD tv? dead in less than 10. People are accustomed to cheap Walmart stuff and will change stuff more often (which comes up more expensive in the long run)

I don't think it's so much about what's being built, but a lot more about what the customer has come to expect (or accept if you're cynically inclined). I bought audio equipment back in the 80s that was built to last, and it lasted. I also bought equipment that was built to look good, and it didn't last.

Even now you can buy stuff that is built to last, I always try to and I usually succeed. But they're not the stuff you find in black friday or xmas sales, or as action in your neighbourhood supermarket. The reason IMO is that current day consumption is fashion driven rather than needs driven. Nothing needs to last 25 years, because it will be out of fashion long before that. An Apple computer from 2011 is ancient by any definition of the word as established by the company, its branding and its users, ad nauseum and to the detriment of everyone on the internet who didn't want to buy into the fairytale. When I saw someone ask earlier in the thread whether the user was to blame for not buying a new machine after the warranty exprired, I couldn't help thinking to myself "If they bought an Apple, then yes, that's exactly what they are expected to do aren't they?"

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anubis IV]

Something can be faulty on day one without failing immediately. For instance, the Xbox 360's red ring of death (and its lesser-known relative, the PS3's yellow light of death) were largely due to sub-par solder being used, which failed after it had gone through a relatively small number of heat-cool cycles. I'd consider those manufacturing defects, since Microsoft and Sony chose materials that were insufficient for the task they were intended to fill.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[amxcoder]

Yes, this is industry wide, you don't know how many parts I've had fail because of this lead-free solder crap.

I had a laptop that died because of an nVidia card with the same problems. Tried to reflow it, but it wouldn't fix it permanently. There was a class action suit against nVidia due to this, you can look it up. This effected dozens if not more laptop manufacturers and models spanning a couple years worth of products.

I had a part in my car, where I had to reflow/resolder a sensor due to a very common failure of a solder joint on the sensor.

I've had to replace my original PS3 due to this problem, the GPU failed and cooked due to bad solder... and my second one, I've had to take extreme care of it to keep it from happening (ie: extreme heat reducing modifications). Probably still will fail over time again, but who knows when.

The PS3 and XBox world have suffered greatly over this problem, that the term "Red Ring of Death" (XBox) and the "Yellow Light of Death" (PS3) have been forever immortalized in gamer forums and youtube. There are businesses setup to do nothing but fix, reflow, and re-ball these things...

ALL due to faulty lead-free solder. So thanks to the EPA, we are all getting defective electronics, that break early, and have a shorter lifespan than normal. Costing consumers mega $$$'s in the long run.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[grantspassalan]

This is just another example of politicians legislating on environmental issues when they are pressured by special interest groups. With the old-fashioned lead-containing 60/40 solder that used to be standard, such problems did not exist. Yes, old electronics eventually ends up in a landfill, but with misguided politicians legislating on engineering issues, there are more equipment failures and and then that equipment ends up in a landfill much sooner than it otherwise would. That makes a total pollution go up rather than down.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Gr8Apes]

So here's the other side of that coin... I have a 2006 Macbook Pro, replaced the hard drive because the original was too small and slow, upgraded the RAM, and just recently had to clean and lubricate the left fan. I have a 2009 MBP (work machine) that only had upgraded RAM until last month, when I upgraded the disk to an SSD. Seems that those laptops are running just fine. Then again, I'm not overly concerned about popping open a laptop to repair or replace something. When is the last time you saw a Dell, Lenovo or Asus laptop last more than 5 years and be perfectly functional?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Mr0bvious]

Are you really that ignorant?

It's called a design fault. It is often caused by the GPU heating and cooling cycle that eventually cracks the solder joints on the grid ball array.

You'll find nearly all DELL 9400's (e1705) have exactly the same design fault.

The user is only to blame in as much as them being foolish enough to trust Apple to design them properly.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[rolfwind]

If it's truly faulty hardware Apple will typically own up to it and offer repairs free of charge. I have the 2008 MBP that had a logic board issue and Apple replaced it for free even though I was well past the warranty and didn't have AppleCare.

Let's see, last time I had a Mac (Powerbook) I needed for development reasons, the logic board went out twice. Both times they wanted me to pay for it. It was only 2 years old the first time (~2005ish). Second time I said fuck it.

My parents had Apple Care and their iPad screen just cracked all of a sudden. Was there when it happened. Right down the bezel, looked like a ditch. There was no impact on the side or front. They refused to do anything but replace the whole thing for $250.

So, I have to say, it's obviously depends where you're at. In my area, Apple is shit on service. BTW, all these instances we tried to take care of it at the local Apple Store.

I prefer their phones and tablets for ease of ownership, but definitely not for the service I get.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[um... Lucas]

I have to wonder what the result will be if all new macs having their ssd chips soldered to the motherboard? I mean, you cant just buy one used and swap the harddrive anymire. when those chios die, theyre dead for good. woukd putting the ssd on a daughter card be that difficult? even if apple diesnt want it user serviced, it woukd save theur techs a ton of time when needing to repaur them, and would probabky speed up the buikd to order process

I digress im just a lowly end user and tim cook is master of the supply chain

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Fnord666]

The Pinto Memo was famously quoted in 'Fight Club' which is what I believe the AC is referencing here.

But I would be willing to bet that the AC did not know that. He only knew the Fight Club reference.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[devphaeton]

I ordered from Mouser. It seems they have a default $6 shipping/handling minimum. I haven't ordered from Jameco for awhile but theirs was $8. I looked at Digikey but two of the cap types I needed were backordered and I didn't want to wait.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[zugmeister]

YMMV on that one. I have two feet off my 2010 MBP and when I took it in last year, I was informed the only way to get replacements was to repurchase the aluminum sheet with the feet ($40). BTW, does anyone know of a place selling rounded feet that won't scrape off going into and out of a laptop bag?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[noh8rz10]

you could buy the feet alone from apple support for $25. link
a bunch on amazon prime for under $10. link

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Shining Celebi]

I bought a Dell Inspiron in 2006 and it still runs great - I use it every day. The only things I've done are upgrade the harddrive to an SSD and upgrade the RAM from 2 to 4GB. Never done anything else, even cleaning.

I am pretty sure the reason most people have problems is how they use it - taking it with them into the bath, running it on the bed, etc. Or they bought a really cheap one.

  I'm no fan of Apple by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm inclined to blame them for this one, but hardware issues happen sometimes to everyone. I believe I've seen reports that put Apple about the middle of the pack. But pay > 1k for your laptop and treat it well and it'll last you. In my experience, most people treat their electronics like crap because they don't really understand them - they abstract away all the internals.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Falconhell]

Today actually, I have several Dell and HP laptops still going well after 10 years.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Bill_the_Engineer]

I have this model MBP also but so far no troubles (knock on wood). The only problem I'm having is my and my coworker's thunderbolt have a constant noise now.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Bill_the_Engineer]

That was suppose to say thunderbolt display.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[murdocj]

Anecdotal support for this: years and years ago I finally gave up on my mixer (which was an antique that was handed down from the my grandmother) and decided to buy a fairly high end mixer. It died within a year. I bought a cheapo hand mixer, thinking that it would die in a few years but at least I wouldn't be out much. That was at least 15 years ago and it's still going strong.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Farmer Tim]

While it would suck, I wouldn't expect a company to even call me back after my warranty has expired. Their liability has expired.

Here in Australia we have a provision in consumer law that states any item considered “durable” (meaning there’s a reasonable expectation of years of service) is covered for manufacturing or design defects regardless of how long the manufacturer’s warranty is; this is referred to as the doctrine of implied warranty. For example, there is a case where Samsung had to refund (not repair, it’s at the purchaser’s discretion) 70% of the purchase price of a TV set which failed after three years because there’s a reasonable expectation that an $8000 big screen TV should last for ten years.

Since these models are failing en masse this is clearly a manufacturing or design defect; in other words, the units had an underlying fault at the time of purchase, this isn’t just normal wear and tear. It’s illegal to sell faulty goods, so Apple remains liable despite the time elapsed before the symptoms appeared; the warranty period is actually irrelevant.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Farmer Tim]

Whoopsshould’ve added to the first paragraph that it isn’t unreasonable to expect a AU$2,500 computer (the cost of the 15” with 1GB VRAM) to last longer than three years. It’s a durable item, not disposable.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Lead typically does not kill in the amounts we're talking about.

But there have been compelling studies on the relationship between chronic environmental lead exposure, and low IQ, violent crime rates, and neurological disorders. We have this data, because lead was banned as an additive in gasoline. It's not a bad idea to get it out of electronics, or at the very least, keep electronics out of landfills. Manufacturers were unable and unwilling to do the latter, so they opted for the former.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

general rule of computing: if a component is going to fail because of a defect in design or manufacturing it is going to fail in the first few *weeks*.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

I have a Sansui 4-channel (2+2) solid state receiver/amp which is probably from the 1970's. When the volume control started going on that all I did was take the thing apart and give it a blast with WD40. Good as new. Still going now. Only replaced the caps once.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

I've got a Latitude CPi d266xt (Pentium MMX so... 1998?) that still works. It's my print server. It also has an Intel Pro 5000 wireless card for point-to-point. Bloody ancient but the important thing is it works.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

whose lifetime?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

My mum bought a cooker in 1982. A Belling Compact DeLuxe. It came with a ten year warranty.
In 1991 the first ring failed and the oven element blew on the same day. An engineer was out in two days and replaced both elements. Under warranty (there was a year left on it).
In 1995 another ring failed. THE SAME ENGINEER came out and replaced the failed ring, said he was surprised to see a thirteen year old cooker still working(!)
In 2000, two rings failed. THE SAME ENGINEER replaced them both and once again expressed his incredulity at seeing a cooker that age still cranking away. Costs deferred as my mum invoked the implied warranty clause of SOGA. Kitchen whitegoods should last a minimum of twenty years (there's precedent somewhere).
Since then, the engineer has sadly passed on. How shocked would he be to learn that that cooker STILL works, even the clock (which has never failed) after 32 years?

I have a Beko Compact cooker I bought and installed in 2001. So far one ring has blown, haven't bothered replacing it - it's a solid ceramic hotplate and I cannot be arsed, basically.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

it does help your case if you have the equipment condemned as nonfunctional due to defect in manufacturing by what would be termed an expert witness (in the case of white goods, a competent, accredited electrical engineer, or in the case of a computer system, a repair technician).

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

was it Apple who said something about lid lifting techniques on the ultrathins when they came out and people started snapping screens?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[LSDelirious]

Even better than baking the whole motherboard in an oven is to make a heat shield with a hole and use a heat gun to just "cook" the chip, so you minimize risk of damage to other areas of the board. Example video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjWXExWM4RU I did this method a while back on my mom's old defective HP DV2000 and its worked great ever since.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Hal_Porter]

Is your mother a) white and b) one of the cool people by any chance?

/It's the black turtleneck secret police, they have come for your uncool niece.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Hal_Porter]

Customers are funny like that. Rather than buying large number of products even after multiple bad experiences products to prove they are bad in a statistically significant way they just stop buying your products after a small number of bad experiences and try the competition.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Hal_Porter]

NVidia had a similar problem with GPUs

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-failure-g84-g86-settlement,11400.html

My Asus G1S had to be fixed twice. The second time it came back with a new motherboard with an 9500M GS replacing the 8600M GT. So Asus had actually done a board revision to switch the GPU. Even more remarkably this was only about a month before the warranty run out.

Most other comanies would have just kept handing out doomed 8600M GT boards until the warranties run out on the machines.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[viperidaenz]

Apple knew exactly how much power they were putting in to the chip. They designed the power supplies on the board for the chip didn't they?
If your thermal system can't handle the output of the power supply, you're asking for trouble.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[meerling]

Has anybody even read the article where it points out the parts failing are apparently AMD RADEON gpus?

Sure, every company has had screwups, and this time it's AMD and Apple. So why are you so intent on talking about Nvidia?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[hairyfeet]

Informative? Really mods? Didn't bother to actually read TFA or even TFS where those without Applecare are being charged for replacements when its obviously faulty hardware? Forget your history and how much shit had to be stirred before Apple would own up to those "bumpgate" Nvidia failures a few years back?

As for what is causing the failures? the answer is simple...the HD6xxx was a hot running chip series and there simply isn't enough cooling in those MBPs. Apple has always been form over function and Jobs always HATED fan noise but you just can't beat the laws of thermodynamics folks.As someone who has used AMD GPUs since the days of the Rage pro I can say that the HD4xxx through HD6xxx were some hot chips and I saw more than my share of failed 5xxx and 6xxx chips, the 7xxx and better are frankly like night and day when it comes to temps.

But I wouldn't be surprised if shitty "environmentally friendly" solder isn't making things a LOT worse as that new lead free shit is total garbage and to me just shows how short sighted much of the whole "being green" initiatives are. Sure the old solder should have been properly recycled but the amount of failures being seen on...well pretty much anything that goes through serious heat cycling is just nuts! And you break the device open and whip out the magnifying glass and what do you see? Solder cracks and tin whiskers.

I just hope Apple does own up and fix those units because like bumpgate its pretty obvious its the hardware that is at fault.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[bemymonkey]

Why do you people keep buying laptops with tiny cooling systems and dedicated graphics cards with dozens of Watts of TDP? I stopped buying those damned things years ago and haven't had to replace a machine since then.

Reliable onboard Intel graphics > Hot-headed dedicated graphics

Graphically intensive work (and gaming) should be done on desktops.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[cduffy]

Most "lifetime warranties" are defined as "lifetime of the device", once you get into the fine print.

I'd very surprised -- downright astonished -- if that video card had a warranty for the span of your lifetime.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[tmosley]

I don't think you have ever owned a Mac there, friend.

One of the primary selling points is their longevity. I have two Macs from 2006-7 that I still use on a regular basis. I'm typing this on a 2007 model now. Finally had to shelve my 2003 model a few years ago as it can't handle playing high res video.

As an amusing anecdote, I will tell you about my experience with Mac vs PC in a laboratory environment. My lab has always been all Mac, even before I got there. I was allowed to get a new iMac back in 2008 as I needed a higher resolution screen to do graphics manipulation on electron micrographs. A couple of years later, another member of our lab wanted a new computer, but insisted on a PC (he had to run some stats software and couldn't into boot camp). So we got him one. A couple of years later, he wanted another one, complaining that his had slowed down so much it was unusable. I was still using my 2008 model, and it was running like a champ. It still works fine, so far as I know, as I have since moved on. Also of note is that we had another Mac from the early 90's running our HPLC, which still works, though that probably isn't a fair comparison as we never used it for anything else.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[tmosley]

Yup. I buy Macs for their longevity. If they stopped working after three years, you might as well buy a PC for far less and get the same lifespan.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[tmosley]

>Test things properly

>failure after three years

>in the computer industry

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[malvcr]

It is a very interesting point of view ... by experience, I know several "servers" (different brands) that had one or another hardware problem before some "desktop" computers, incorrectly used as servers, had one.

In fact, I really don't remember those desktops to fail, they were replaces because simply they became not strong enough to continue backing the business they were focused on.

Another interesting thing: with the desktops, you only need to go to a regular store to find the parts and you can change them by yourself. With the servers, you need to purchase "premium" parts and, depending on your company budget, you also need to pay premium support to help you with the machines maintenance.

Good to point on this.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MightyYar]

Ditto on the mixer. My wife has this really crappy hand mixer that she bought - before she met me - at Woolworth's, if you remember that chain. So that was at least 17 years ago. Still going strong.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[murdocj]

What I forgot to mention was that I gave up on my grandmother's mixer not because it stopped working, but because the socket where the beaters plugged in was physically getting worn down and it was harder and harder to get the beaters to mesh in. That old mixer was an absolute tank.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[nurb432]

But not forever, your law is just forcing an extension to warranties, not a 'forever' thing.

How long a warranty should reasonably last on a particular item we can all debate, but i was just saying that once its out, its over and that is that. When you buy an item you know up front what the warranty is ( in effect a contract ). If the warranty is unreasonable to you don't buy the product.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Uberbah]

Apple knew exactly how much power they were putting in to the chip.

But Apple didn't know that Nvidia had lied about the cooling needs of said chip. So why is this Apple's fault, again? Again, should Apple extensively re-test every component just so the component manufacturers don't have to live up to their claims?

Now, lets turn this around. Let's say Apple claims that their new Mac Pro is capable of real-time encoding a 4k video stream. So you buy a Mac Pro because you want to capture some 4k video - but Apple lied and their product can't handle it! Now, who's primarily at fault here: the manufacturer for lying about the capabilities of their product, or you the consumer?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MightyYar]

Except that this is in my own kitchen with two of everything. The cheap dishwasher runs great, if noisy. The expensive one I've pulled out and replaced stuff three times now, including a ridiculous repair involving cheap plastic connectors that support the weight of the door. The super-pricey fridge developed a leak in the ice maker. After getting the run-around on parts (you HAVE to buy from "authorized dealers") I did some research and discovered that the ice maker is just a standard Whirlpool unit bolted in to the expensive freezer. Armed with that knowledge, you can get parts anywhere. The super-expensive rangetop has a fancy retracting hood. A $1.50 limit switch in a bad spot (susceptible to falling food) is flaky and until I eventually replace it, you have to know "the trick" to make the hood deploy. God knows what they'll want for that switch. The expensive oven lost a cooling fan, and the repair revealed the appliance to be assembled such that the only moving part was sandwiched between parts that are never meant to be separated. I field-modified it a bit so that I wouldn't have to disassemble the whole thing - I'm a mechanical engineer, and I estimate that it would have cost them about 15 cents to make the part more serviceable by bending the sheet metal mounts 90 degrees. They also standardized on a fastener - presumably to simplify their assembly process - but the fastener is Phillips head and so requires direct access. A slightly more expensive combination Phillips/hex head like you see on PCs would solve the issue, but would have added some cost. Would you pay an extra dollar for your oven to be more serviceable? I would, but I'm definitely not typical. Most people would have gotten the $350 estimate from the repair guy and bought a new oven. After all, it is nearly 8 years old! :)

Given this experience, any appliance purchases I make in the future will be high-volume regular consumer stuff. Even if it means more of the same shoddy cost-cutting, at least I won't be paying a premium for it.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[TheRaven64]

The Sale of Goods Act in the UK requires that goods are suitable for the purpose for which sold and must function in this manner, in normal use, for a period which is expected for the class of product. This electronic devices, unless explicitly stated before the time of sale (i.e. placing text clearly in the advert saying 'this device has a shorter useable life than others of its class'), this is six years. For other devices, such as kitchen appliances, it can be 10-20 years, during which the manufacturer is obliged to provide service for all faults that are not directly caused by the owner. The EU warranty law actually gives you weaker protection than the UK law, but feel free to keep boycotting UK companies because of that if it makes you feel better...

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[rickb928]

ASUS G50VTs suffer from this, more often the more you game on them. Mine does not cause I don't game on it.

Oven baking seems to repair the GPU, but ASUS doesn't discuss warranty, not on these.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MightyYar]

Yeah, I'm not an expert by any means (I simply inherited the kitchen), but it seems like they keep two sets of everything... dishes, silverware, shelf space, dishwashers, sinks, refrigerators, ovens... just about everything is duplicated - my understanding is that is to avoid cross-"contamination". All of the major appliances and many house lights are also either on timers or have Sabbath timers built-in. I have been de-timering my house since we first moved in :) At first it was quite freaky, as some of the timers are mechanical and the house was unoccupied through a couple of power outages, so the timers got out of sync. Things like the dishwasher suddenly kicking on at 4AM...

I gotta tell you, having two of everything is pretty sweet. No "emergency" appliance repairs, LOL... though the other fridge did not come with the house so we only have one of those - or maybe they had some way to share the fridge space.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MightyYar]

I wish some stuff was made like that now. I'd gladly pay double or even triple the price for an attic fan that didn't require me to go up there and replace it every few years.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[InvalidError]

I wouldn't let the ABS light bother me; I'm used to driving on icy roads without ABS. People just need to remember that if they lock wheels on ice or other surface, they need to release brake pressure until tires start gripping again instead of stomping on the brakes harder. For people who have mastered this reflex, ABS has little benefit other than helping find the grip-slip limit a little faster. Even people who drive with ABS can benefit from mastering this since the less time ABS spends correcting braking pressure due to slip detection (ideally, it should not have to), the more time the tires spend actually gripping... and the more familiar drivers get with driving without triggering ABS, the more likely they are to react properly if they end up driving a vehicle with broken or no ABS... and if the ABS does not need to work as hard as often, its electromechanical components should last longer too.

Basically, for me, ABS is a feature that is there to teach people who are willing to learn how to brake without using it. But for many people, ABS is a feature that simply reduces the skill level required for decent braking.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[NigelTheFrog]

The SSD cards are not soldered even in the late 2013 MBPs. I'm not aware of anyone who makes a replacement, but it is theoretically replaceable. http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Retina+Display+Late+2013+Teardown/18696

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[viperidaenz]

Apple should know that the majority of power put in to a chip is dissipated as heat.

Who's to blame? Who ever sold it to the consumer. That's what consumer protection laws are for, protecting the consumer. Most of them explicitly exclude business purchases.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Mashiki]

Then feel free to be surprised and astonished. The warranty policy for evga is: If they can replace the card, they will, if they can't, they'll give you a replacement of equal value, in the next generation. And the warranty period doesn't expire within the "lifetime of the device." I just got a 460Ti under warranty replacement from them, it was a 650ti.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Gr8Apes]

Awesome that it still works, but I'm talking about using it as a daily computer, not a server locked in a closet. Those won't fail nearly as quickly because no mechanical items are used (other than the HD). I'm still using the 2009 for development. This means I use at at least several times a week, both with and without being plugged in. The battery is still good for 4-5 hours. The 2006 is used daily for personal email and web browsing, etc. The keys are starting to get worn on both, but everything still works.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Jeremi]

Most "lifetime warranties" are defined as "lifetime of the device", once you get into the fine print.

What is the definition of "lifetime of the device"?

(If it's defined as "until the device stops working", then I don't think the warranty will be very useful... ;))

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Gr8Apes]

Dells are notorious for battery life. I easily went through a Dell battery a year, and at best got half of their stated battery life. I've seen others have issues with keyboards and screens, but I tend to agree with you that those items are more likely to be user faults than manufacturer faults after the first month or so of use. For instance, I've seen one MBP with a broken hinge personally, which shocked me, because I've dropped a few in the past myself including Apple machines (it happens when you move your laptop around daily and/or travel with them despite your best intentions) and the worst I ever did was crack the plastic base on a Dell or IBM or inflict a minor scratch / dent on the MBPs. I suppose they could just be very unlucky, but given their other issues, it's a stretch to give them the benefit of the doubt, especially when the reason given was "it slipped out of my hands as I picked it up from the table".

I would agree that regarding the GPU failures, it's Apple / AMD's fault. The discrete graphics cards are known hot runners, whether laptop or desktop, and I've always questioned manufacturer's numbers since Ars and company seem to never get those "lower" numbers that they post for heat. It's either AMD's fault for supplying sub-standard chips during the production run, or Apple for not being conservative enough on heat dissipation with the eventual degrading of forced air cooling due to dust etc. Since all of the cases concern AMD chipsets, I'd wager that AMD is probably more to blame here for faulty chips or overly optimistic numbers, otherwise you'd see similar issues with NVidia chips, as Apple routinely appears to switch between the two.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[roedb]

Who lied about what? They used AMD GPU's in 2011. You typed 6 paragraphs and didn't even read the 4 paragraphs in the OP's linked article. "The issue appears to affect 15 and 17-inch MacBook Pros that have discrete graphics cards. All of the 2011 MacBooks use AMD cards, including the AMD Radeon HD 6490M, the AMD Radeon HD 6750M (both 512MB/1GB variants) and the AMD Radeon HD 6770M."

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[exomondo]

One of the primary selling points is their longevity.

While I agree they do tend to last - though I'm sure there's anecdotal evidence to support that both ways just like any other computer manufacturer - they go out of support quite quickly. My 2010 MBP is still going great but OS support for it will likely be dropped in the next release, Mountain Lion dropped support even for some systems just over 3 years old.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Sez Zero]

Which car company do you work for?

A major one.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[ihtoit]

not so much locked in a closet, it sits on top of my laser printer with what's left of the lid up (I stripped the bezel after it developed some cracks, it looks ugly-functional, in a cyberpunk fashion).

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[exomondo]

And how much more will you complain about Apple's prices after they extensively re-test all their components, just so their suppliers don't have to stand behind the claims they make for their components reliability?

Well where is their responsibility to the customer? "Oh it's not our fault, it's our supplier." Well why the hell do they continue to fuck their customers over by using that supplier? They had a problem with 2008 systems (first year failures too) and now they're having it with 2011 systems and they still use nVidia GPUs, why?!

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[exomondo]

hrm...seems the 2011 ones used AMD chips, appears it is Apple's testing of their products that isn't up to par.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Crosshair84]

Don't get me started on that "Green" solder. That stuff causes so many failures it isn't even funny. The old box camera CCTV security cameras that were made before "green"solder was used would often last over a decade. There are some B&W cameras at one facility still in service that have manufacture dates on them from 1993 when the facility first opened, 20 years of trouble free operation. Only reason I was in the housing for those cameras was to clean the lenses and re-focus.

The newer stuff? Some specimens last as little as two years, 4-5 seems to be the average. Bust one apart and guess what you find? Just like you said, broken solder joints or tin whiskers.

Yea, lead paint in kids toys is a bad idea, but guess what politicians who mandated lead-free solder? Sometimes lead is used in things for VERY GOOD REASONS. In this case, using leaded solder effectively solves the tin whisker problem in most use cases. Any environmental savings by using lead-free solder is more than offset by the decreased lifespan of equipment.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Plumpaquatsch]

Because it's not Kosher if dairy and meat are prepared together, mostly.

So one mixer for milk shakes and one for meat shakes?

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Gr8Apes]

Bonus for steampunk ;).
Mine, except for some key and hand position wear and a few scuffs, look almost indistinguishable from 1 or 2 year old laptops.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Hasufin_Heltain]

I have an older model that the "fix" is this --- in fact I'm using smFanControl now. If I don't the temp of the CPU/GPU goes over 200 degrees while watching netflix. Otherwise; browser its around 116 or 117. Can you recommend the repair service -- I've "baked" my logic board about 4 months ago.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[nobodie]

while I don't like or support the current devolution of Apple, We did have a blue and white iMac from 1998 that not only lasted a good long while, it stayed competitive with windows in terms of speed for many years. BUT, in the end the problem came from the inability to replace parts that died (first the USB ports on the keyboard, then the keyboard, then the HDD, then the CD drive. The CD drive required the purchase of a second one (European model, tray loader, only made them for two or three months while waiting for the slot loaders to come in) to replace the CD. Then another HDD died, no update past OSX10.3. fuggetaboutit. My daughter kept it for a few more years and then dumped it.

But now,you can't do stuff like this to a Mac for the most part you have to let Apple rape you for the repair or dump it in China and buy a new one. Screw that.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Reziac]

I don't know how well it would do in these applications vs conventional solder, but I used to work at the outfit that makes TIX solder:

http://www.micromark.com/tix-solder-pkg-of-20-three-inch-sticks,6707.html

Yes, that IS the typical price. It contains silver and iridium.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Reziac]

Have you tried TIX solder for repairing electronics? That's what it was designed for. Tho I don't really know how it is for heat expansion vs cracking. (I used to work for the outfit that made it.)

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[tmosley]

Is it really an anecdote when you have owned 10+ Macs and 10+ PCs in your lifetime, and every Mac lived a long time or died suddenly due to a hardware failure (happened to me three times, one being from an externality where an idiot spilled a coke on my laptop), while every PC suffered from slowdown to the point of being unusable after 3-4 years?

Of further note is that when the PCs were switched over to Linux, the slowdown issues disappeared. This is enough evidence for me to conclude with greater than 99% certainty that the Windows versions I was using had some sort of issue that slowed down my hardware with time. Maybe they have fixed their issues since XP (the last version I used), but considering how reluctant people were to upgrade from there, I kind of doubt it.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[exomondo]

Is it really an anecdote when you have owned 10+ Macs and 10+ PCs in your lifetime, and every Mac lived a long time or died suddenly due to a hardware failure (happened to me three times, one being from an externality where an idiot spilled a coke on my laptop), while every PC suffered from slowdown to the point of being unusable after 3-4 years?

If every PC were unusable after 3-4 years then I doubt there would be so many people on Windows XP. But that's beside the point, Macs don't last any longer than PCs because it's the same hardware and if anything they fall out of support much sooner than other PCs. That said it hasn't deterred me from buying Macs, when Apple stops supporting them I'll just put Linux on them.

Of further note is that when the PCs were switched over to Linux, the slowdown issues disappeared.

So it's nothing to do with Macs being any more reliable at all, your complaint is related to Windows.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Uberbah]

You're just drinking the Hateboi Hatorade, because this is Apple. If this were some Android device where an overheating graphics chip caused problems - two years after the warranty is over - you wouldn't be blaming the chipmaker first and HTC/Samsung/Google a distant second.

Obvious selective reasoning is obvious.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Uberbah]

Apple should know that the majority of power put in to a chip is dissipated as heat.

Which doesn't explain why it's Apple's fault that Nvidia lied, or how much more people will whine about Apple's prices if they retest every component so the suppliers don't have to live up to their promises.

Who's to blame? Who ever sold it to the consumer. That's what consumer protection laws are for, protecting the consumer. Most of them explicitly exclude business purchases.

Immediate responsibility to fix and blame are two seperate issues. It's not rocket science: if these stories are accurate, Apple should fix the units in question, and then get Nvidia to reimburse them. But the story is much more clickbaity with some of the usual Hatorade thrown on top.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Grishnakh]

A keyboard, HDD, and CD drive died? Of all the parts in a computer, those should be some of the easiest to replace. Surely you can easily find a new Mac keyboard on Ebay or wherever, or at an Apple store of course. HDDs are all standard (I assume, I guess in 1998 they would have been 40-pin IDE), so it should have been possible to replace that one easily with any off-the-shelf model. The CD drive may have been more tricky if they used some odd model instead of a fairly standard one.

It's when you have problems with motherboards, or power supplies in proprietary cases, where repair of the computer becomes less economically viable.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[nctritech]

Sadly, as the owner of a computer service shop, I see this all the time. If we tell someone a Mac either is not worth repairing or is going to cost several hundred dollars due to the severely limited used parts market for Apple products and the high price it commands as a result, they go buy a brand new Mac for $1000 or more and only pick the old one up in about 1/3 of cases. A large segment of Mac owners are either rich or have great credit. The worst part is that the shorter lifespan of a typical Mac (due to quicker OS releases and software that "expands to fit the developer machine's container" so to speak AND high post-warranty repair costs all leading to premature obsolescence) means Macs probably find their way to the attic or the trash can faster than a lot of PCs.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[nctritech]

This announcement brought to you by Paper Street Soap Company. Burn responsibly, Raymond K. Hessel.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[um... Lucas]

I stand corrected.

I did replace the battery in my last generation Macbook Air a few months ago, and in that case, there was nothing removable from the motherboard that I recall. Just sold it used and purchased the 15" pro and knowing that the SSD can eventually be replaced and hopefully upgraded makes me a lot happier.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[nobodie]

Apple would only allow a limited set of hardware, finding those was difficult and they were expensive, cheaper to buy a pre-dead computer for parts.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[toddestan]

Doesn't surprise me. It's probably changed in the past few years, but last when I was looking at appliances the cheap models are use relatively simple electro-mechanical parts to control the appliance, and the fancy ones used computerized controls. Those computerized controls seem to be a major weak point, and seem to be what fails first in a lot of appliances. Which is kind of surprising since I would expect the electronics to be a lot more robust than the moving parts. And since the cost of parts and repair when the logic board goes bad usually the appliance just gets replaced.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[MightyYar]

Yes, I agree. From the manufacturing perspective, I can see the benefits of a single board. Even if it costs $200, it replaces several other individual units that might collectively add up to the same amount anyway and reduces the number of parts and connections. But as a customer, it sucks. I'd much rather replace the single $30 electromechanical part than have to deal with the entire (now marked up to $300) board.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Uberbah]

Talk about a non-response. Look, this isn't hard: if the reports are not just accurate but symptomatic of the parts in question, Apple should offer to extend coverage for said parts, then take it out of Nvidia's hide. But if you started the story off that way, you wouldn't get the chance to indulge in some frothing-at-the-mouth Hatorade, now would you?

They had a problem with 2008 systems (first year failures too) and now they're having it with 2011 systems and they still use nVidia GPUs, why?!

Uhhhhhhh because ATI is the other game in town, maybe? Who have had far more hardware and software defects in their products than Nvidia has ever had? Back in 2011 when these laptops were made, people with Mac Pros were having to replace their ATI video cards from older Pros because they would overheat and crash the system.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[exomondo]

if the reports are not just accurate but symptomatic of the parts in question, Apple should offer to extend coverage for said parts, then take it out of Nvidia's hide.

Of course they should, so why aren't they? They didn't in 2008 either. These things should be system recalls but ultimately they should be better tested to begin with, and that goes for any manufacturer.

Re:Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[zugmeister]

Never even occurred to me to look on Amazon. Feel a bit stupid now.
Thank you for that much needed kick in the pants!

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[sh00z]

Most people I know who have a Mac Book or a Mac Book Pro have it nearly since a decade and did not buy a new one (well, they don't play games on them, so that might be one reason).

Well, not quite. The first MacBooks came out in February 2006, so they're only going on eight years old. However, my main iron is a Powerbook G4 that *is* 10 years old, and it runs just fine for everything I want. I'm just very lucky that the very last version of the OS that I can run is the very FIRST version compatible with iOS6, and for which Adobe released their DNG translation software for my camera's RAW files. The Powerbook I had before this one lasted 12 years, and the part that failed was the ribbon cable to the display. I kept using it with lines through the screen until I could no longer sync my iPod Touch or iPhone.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[angel'o'sphere]

Oh, I forgot that the Powerbooks were called that and not MacBooks :) I had a 2001(?) 17" Powerbook G4 which I sold 2005 or 2006, AFAIK it is still running.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Uberbah]

Of course they should, so why aren't they?

That's dependent on this being an actual thing. Because when five people with Apple products have the same problem, it's officially an international incident. Whereas other companies can have crap like the Red Ring of Death and never get a fraction of the hatorade.

Like last year, one of my friends had his Razr Maxx replaced four times for a cracking screen. At first he thought it was because he was being careless, but it turns out there was a design flaw that would crack the screen while charging the phone. Zero articles on Slashdot with anyone raging at how Motorola was a shoddy company.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[exomondo]

That's dependent on this being an actual thing. Because when five people with Apple products have the same problem, it's officially an international incident. Whereas other companies can have crap like the Red Ring of Death and never get a fraction of the hatorade.

What the hell are you talking about? Where have only 5 people had this issue? And the Red Ring of Death is constantly brought up whenever Microsoft products are discussed and it resulted in additional replacement warranties being extended.

Like last year, one of my friends had his Razr Maxx replaced four times for a cracking screen. At first he thought it was because he was being careless, but it turns out there was a design flaw that would crack the screen while charging the phone. Zero articles on Slashdot with anyone raging at how Motorola was a shoddy company.

So what are you suggesting? All Motorola Razr Maxxs had this issue? Maybe only your friend had the issue, or maybe it was only "5 people with Motorola Razr Maxxs" that had this problem.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[Uberbah]

What the hell are you talking about?

Double standards. But I was perfectly clear the first time.

And the Red Ring of Death is constantly brought up whenever Microsoft products are discussed

Without the Hatorade that you and dozens of other Hatebois are aiming at Apple for a far smaller problem.

So what are you suggesting? All Motorola Razr Maxxs had this issue? Maybe only your friend had the issue, or maybe it was only "5 people with Motorola Razr Maxxs" that had this problem.

At this point I'm going to suggest you work on your reading comprehension. The point - which again was perfectly clear the first time - is that a shitty design flaw resulted in no press and no hate, because it wasn't Apple. Whereas if it were iPhone screens cracking which charging, you and the other Hatebois would be up in arms.

Duh.

Re: Warranty Shouldn't Matter

[exomondo]

Without the Hatorade that you and dozens of other Hatebois are aiming at Apple for a far smaller problem.

Yeah, nobody ever hates on Microsoft for the RROD...lol you must be new here, actually you must be new to the internet entirely.

The point - which again was perfectly clear the first time - is that a shitty design flaw resulted in no press and no hate, because it wasn't Apple. Whereas if it were iPhone screens cracking which charging, you and the other Hatebois would be up in arms.

Because the Razr Maxx isn't very popular so if a couple of users had this problem (did it affect all users?) and they didn't actually voice their concerns about the problem then how exactly do you think it's going to get attention? Magic? Did somebody submit a story on /.? I'm not sure why you are getting so emotional about this, I had an RROD and it pissed me off, I had a YLOD on my PS3 and it pissed me off, I had a 2008 MBP that had the GPU fail and that pissed me off, if I had a Razr Maxx and the screen cracked that would piss me off too, but I don't.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that i "hate" Apple, I have an iPhone which their warranty support has been excellent on, the 2008 MBP was fixed and I have a 2013 MBP now but my point is I just hope they got their shit together when engineering this one so it doesn't develop another GPU issue.

I know people that this has happened to...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully, I was there to tell them "I told you so."

What's the big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

MacBooks are mostly used for appearance. Surely, the hipsters can go to a coffee shop with one that doesn't have a working GPU.

History

[Sponge Bath]

Apple has shown they will replace whatever is necessary, if there is a defect. When the Nvidia 8400M chip was defective (material in chip package caused solder ball fracture due to thermal expansion), they replaced main boards. Dell used the same chip in XPS laptops (I had one and it did die), and supplied the same fix. Of course, in that instance they got some reimbursement from Nvidia.

Smart corporations know to do the right thing or take a righteous bitch slapping from consumers and lawyers.

Re:History

[Sponge Bath]

Correction: 8600M

Re:History

[Mark4ST]

The problem is that Quanta (they build system boards for Apple's laptop division) has never been able to properly do a ball grid array. The problem is not the chips or cooling, it's the "good enough" techniques Quanta uses to attach them to to a system board. If a ball grid array is done properly, it can be quite robust-- Quanta doesn't seem to care about longevity of the product, and hasn't for a number of years.

Quanta's quality problems are even more dire when you see that they manufacture about one third of the world's laptop system boards.

Please see Quanta and ball grid array.

Re:History

[Sponge Bath]

The problem is not the chips or cooling, it's the "good enough" techniques Quanta uses to attach them to to a system board.

The case I described had a detailed investigation by Nvidia, who claimed responsibility and reported the materials problem in the chip package. They payed hundreds of millions to settle. The chip in question was used by multiple vendors, all of which had the same failures.

Given those facts, it is hard to see how you come to the conclusion Apple/Quanta is responsible.

Re:History

[thegarbz]

You don't know much about your history. Apple was right there with Dell and HP denying the issue until NVIDIA owned up to the problem. At that point they could pass on the costs and they were all to happy to replace parts. They also have a history of deleting complaints en-mass on their forums to make it looks like the problem is small like on the LG screen issue.

Oh and in several cases it's taken court action to get them to replace things, not to mention the Apple Care debacle of charging users who were legally entitled to warranty coverage for that coverage.

Smart corporations calculate the cost of non-compliance and rely on users with short memories thinking they are great corporate citizens shortly after.

Re:History

[meerling]

Assuming they publicly acknowledge the issue. For several years now they've denied issues with many of their products until they had no other choice. Hopefully they'll do better with this incident.

Score: -1, Flamebait

[danaris]

"Will they take ownership of the issue, or continue to ask customers to pay for an entire new logic board when just the GPU fails?"

Seriously?

Apple has a history of acknowledging and providing free fixes for issues of this magnitude, if they're really affecting a significant percentage of the population. I've been the beneficiary of such a fix in the past myself.

Hell, that's even mentioned in the linked article:

Mid–2011 iMacs with AMD Radeon HD 6970 graphics cards experienced similar failures and in August of 2013, Apple initiated a Graphics Card Replacement Program for the computers, replacing the graphics cards of affected iMacs at no cost.

So with the MacRumors article having only come out yesterday, it seems pretty aggressively snide to be suggesting that Apple's going to ignore the issue.

Dan Aris

Re:Score: -1, Flamebait

[ssimpson]

Mainstreaming reporting started in the last few days. The issue has been reported consistently for nearly a year. I and many other impact users have reported faults in stores, reported via Apple Product Feedback in forums and written to Tim Cook to complain. Not only do they ignore the issues reported on the forum but they also delete posts with links to online forums, news stories and petitions. Nice work Apple.....

Apple do little on the issue and offer you a (paid for) repair service to fix this systemic fault. The repair being a replacement board that many users report fails again anyway.

Re:Score: -1, Flamebait

[puto]

Iphone 4 Antennae issue, at first they denied it, then they said you were holding it wrong, then they sent you a rubber bumper for it instead of replacing it....

Re:Score: -1, Flamebait

[thegarbz]

Seriously?

Apple has a history of acknowledging and providing free fixes for issues of this magnitude, if they're really affecting a significant percentage of the population. I've been the beneficiary of such a fix in the past myself.

Hell, that's even mentioned in the linked article:

Except when they think they can get away with it. They are one of the better corporate citizens but then the Vatican is the symbol for all things good and righteous as well right? They have been repeatedly sued in Europe about warranty practices, have been caught denying problems and then flat out mass deleting customer complaints on their forums (like with the LG screen issue), and even the NVIDIA GPU issue that plagued a few computers they denied everything until NVIDIA eventually took the blame, after which they were all to happy to do warranty replacements and pass on the costs.

Thin and looks over cooling is the apple way

[Joe_Dragon]

Thin and looks over cooling is the apple way

Re:Thin and looks over cooling is the apple way

[Bing Tsher E]

Hey, who cares what the supermodel looks like when she's 30?

We sure don't!

I'm not an apple defender, but...

[damn_registrars]

Will they take ownership of the issue, or continue to ask customers to pay for an entire new logic board when just the GPU fails?

That doesn't sound any different from any other manufacturer. The GPU on the laptop is, after all, soldered into the laptop motherboard. Even though is it "just the GPU" it isn't something that can be replaced on its own. I don't know why we should expect Apple to have a different standard for customer service and expected system longevity.

Re:I'm not an apple defender, but...

[Jmc23]

Let's see, mxm slots provided by almost nobody, only two big players, non of which have anything to do with apple. How is your constant mentionning of these slots of any relevance besides your need to appear knowledgable and important.

Re:I'm not an apple defender, but...

[Khyber]

Apparently you can't read.

"That doesn't sound any different from any other manufacturer"

Except other manufacturers use MXM. Try some reading comprehension.

And Apple used MXM slots before. Try again when you used to do Apple repair.

Re:I'm not an apple defender, but...

[Jmc23]

So, not relevant today except in your head. Yes, we get that.

Re:I'm not an apple defender, but...

[Khyber]

Quite relevant, if you had any clue about Apple hardware (the Mac Pro has a special version that comes with MXM slots for upgrading GPUs. It costs ~$500 more than without, but the option is available by special order.)

I have two.

Don''t expect help from Apple

[canada_dry]

Like most retail stores, Apple store staff are rewarded for sales, not having not having warranty repairs. When I went there with a similar issue more than 5 years ago: http://gizmodo.com/5061605/apple-confirms-failing-nvidia-graphics-cards-in-macbook-pros-offers-free-repairs-and-refunds I was summarily dismissed by their "genius". I went from there to an Apple authorized technician who actually tested the computer and confirmed the issue. Over the next couple years the laptop had to be repaired three times until I finally replaced it with a high end ASUS. Moral of the story... never, ever buy a sexy new Apple product unless you can also afford to also buy the extended warranty.

Re:Don''t expect help from Apple

[Jmc23]

Did you pay for those repairs? Because the 'moral of the story' changes if you didn't pay anything.

Re:Don''t expect help from Apple

[Nerdfest]

The convenience factor does enter into it as well. It's pain taking stuff in for repairs. Apple makes decent hardware, but they do seem to have at least as many lemons as anyone else. From what I've seen it's more, perhaps because of the size of the laptops. Most people I know with MacBooks have had at least one repair in the first couple of years. A couple have had machines that had to be replaced as they kept having problems. The good news is that they were replaced free. It's still a pain though.

Re:Don''t expect help from Apple

[Bing Tsher E]

The better question is whether they paid him for his downtime when he could have been doing whatever revenue-producing work he does using the Apple hardware.

Re:Don''t expect help from Apple

[Jmc23]

Because that's what other manufacturers do?

Re:Don''t expect help from Apple

[Jmc23]

Regardless of the manufacturer, time will be lost. How much it will cost you is the big difference.

Re:Don''t expect help from Apple

[Hognoxious]

I see what you did there...

Re:Don''t expect help from Apple

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Nobody pays you for downtime; but vendors with 'enterprise' hopes certainly do offer warranties (usually as an option, not a baseline) that make it very clear that the customer considers time-to-fix to be a serious problem. 4 hour onsite 24/7/365 tends not to be the cheap warranty; but offering it can be attractive to customers who value their time.

Apple is sort of an oddball in that their base level of service tends to be quite high (they have their share of horror stories; but given that the consumer-level onsite support options are 'Apple Store' or 'get fucked over by the Geek Squad'...); but even their relatively expensive products don't really have anything else on the table. The various PC OEMs tend to offer service tiers all the way from 'active hostility' to 'helicopter parent'.

2011 Refurbs

[ghack]

Some early/late 2011 refurbs have been popping up on the Apple Refurb Store occasionally still (although there are none on there now there was some several weeks ago). My guess is these are machines Apple is replacing for folks with AppleCare and then they are replacing the logic board and battery and reselling them as refurbs.

I have a late 2011 (a work machine with applecare) and have never seen any issues.

6750M/6770M

[ghack]

For the 2011 macbook pros, my guess is that this mostly impacts the AMD Radeon HD 6750M and AMD Radeon HD 6770M.

I would imagine the AMD Radeon HD 6490M doesn't get hot enough to be impacted :)

Can doing a lot of Ruby on Rails cause this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit, I'm getting really worried now. I've got a 2011 MacBook Pro and I do so much Ruby on Rails and JavaScript. I wake up at 4 am every day and then I put on my fedora, my anime t-shirt and I write Ruby on Rails and JavaScript libraries until 3 am the next day. Sometimes I don't even eat and urinate, but that's beside the point.

Could all my hardcore Rubying be causing my MacBook Pro to die? I do push it pretty hard. A lot of the coding I'm doing is webscale. I even use NoSQL I'm dealing with so much data. My web app's logging subsystem logs almost 2 GB of data a month. When you're dealing with a lot of data like that a superpowerful database like Mongo then I can understand my poor little MacBook having a hard time coping. Maybe I'm pushing her too hard?

I can't just ease up though. I've got so many Ruby on Rails web apps to write and so many JavaScript libraries to craft. This is a life or death situation for me. I don't want it to be a life or death situation for my MacBook either. We've been through so much! I remember writing my very first line of code ever on my laptop. It was a Ruby code and it made me feel really good. Now I'm an accomplished software architect with numerous Web 2.0 web sites under my belt like for the local veterinarian and the herbal store down the street.

Now I really don't know what to do. I'm so confused. I want my MacBook to live forever because it has become part of me. But I need to use her, too. I need her to do my Ruby on Rails coding and my JavaScript programming. I need to use my NoSQL DB but if it hurts my MacBook Pro, do I really want to use it? I just don't know any more.

Re: Can doing a lot of Ruby on Rails cause this?

[DigiShaman]

Drink more Pabst, you'll feel better.

Sony's CCDs failed for many digital cameras

[Kevoco]

The warranty didn't matter. The various camera manufacturers that used the Sony CCD issued a recall and replaced the CCDs. I believe Sony picked up the tab.

  CCD Sensor Problems in Consumer Imaging Products Fall, 2005 .

It's not just Apple...

[trparky]

It's not just Apple that's had an issue with this particular problem. HP has had an issue with their GPUs failing on their motherboards too in their notebooks.

I'm of the opinion now that notebooks just don't belong having high-end GPUs in them. Notebooks have always had a history of cooling issues because of a variety of issues from inadequate fans or other various issues. Now let's stick the equivalent of a space heater in the device and let's see what happens. I'm really surprised that this sort of thing isn't happening more often to more brands of notebooks.

Let's face it, a notebook is a portable device with very cramped internals. It's like it's become a form of art to find out just how much more stuff we can cram into an even smaller space. A notebook is a portable device, it's not meant to be your one and only device. If you want to be playing games, get a desktop; not a notebook.

Re:It's not just Apple...

[norite]

Many parallels with the 360 and the RROD....brittle, lead free solder, combined with not enough cooling (no fan, tiny heatsink) due to cramped internals meant that the solder balls under the GPU started to crack. Best solution at the time was to have the GPU reballed with lead solder, which was more flexible and could handle the expansion and contraction of repeated heating/cooling cycles. Now, they're using GPU's that run a lot cooler, plus they stuck a massive fan+heatsink on them with the 360 slim, so the issue has gone away.

Re:It's not just Apple...

[Voyager529]

I'm of the opinion now that notebooks just don't belong having high-end GPUs in them. Notebooks have always had a history of cooling issues because of a variety of issues from inadequate fans or other various issues.

I disagree. My Origin EON17 has been rocking for three years with a GeForce 460M without a problem at all. The issue isn't the GPU. The issue is trying to cram a half-decent GPU into anorexic laptops. Apple frequently trumpets their tech as being "thin", which to many people, is a selling point. I understand that. My laptop is, at its largest point, about 2 inches thick. Finding bags that fit it has been a challenge on many occasions. It weighs over ten pounds, and the power brick is another three.

The issue is that companies are trying to copy the super-thinness of a Mac, but still match them on specs. One of the things that Apple does do well as far as design is use the aluminum case as a part of the heatsink; laptops that use plastic can't do that (and, on the contrary, must account for the added insulation). If you want a desktop replacement, it's possible, but you WILL have the fattest, heaviest laptop in the Starbucks. That is the cost of the power. If you want something thin and light, then I agree - don't expect to be rendering 4K scenes in Maya with any meaningful amount of speed on that Intel integrated chipset.

Re:Sorry they're out of warranty

[nurb432]

While i agree, that isn't how the world works today. People expect to be babysat their entire life.

Just look at the 'settlement' for the bad parenting skills and iPhone apps we just saw happen?

GPU failures seem frequent in MacBook

[justcauseisjustthat]

I know from my last 15 yrs of experience with MacBooks, the GPU seems be a problem area from Apple.

Re:Pay only 3 times the real value

[umafuckit]

Motherboard failure happed to me with a Mac Mini only one month after the warranty expired. The problem was that the epoxy used on the boards when they were made was in short supply, so a substitute resin was used on some to keep production up. Apple wanted $499 for a new board. I never bought another Apple product again. If your MacBook Pro died. Find out what it will cost to replace the board. After your shock go look for a new machine. Apple price gouges the aftermarket.

I have the opposite story. I brought my MBP in to the Apple store because it was over-heating and I asked them to change the fans. They refused (for some reason) but they gave me a free motherboard replacement instead (or at least they claimed they did). This fixed the problem for a while but the over-heating came back eventually. I then paid to have the fans changed, which meant it ran quieter because the bearings were shot. Still over-heated, though.

Apple took care of me VERY nicely on this issue.

[Anonymous Coward]

My 2011 Macbook Pro 15" had a GPU which failed. My computer was
still covered by AppleCare at the time. I cannot say whether AppleCare
made a difference in how the problem was resolved or not.

The GPU fault was intermittent, which made it a pain to prove to
Apple that there was a problem, but after I photographed the screen
during the GPU misbehavior Apple began to believe there was
actually a fault. Without the photographs of the screen I am not sure
Apple would have given me a new machine.

Apple gave me a 15" Retina for no charge, and they included an external
optical drive as well. The new machine was the highest spec available,
which made it significantly more powerful than my previous machine.
I don't much like Mavericks but I'd have to say that Mavericks aside this
was a nice ending to my story of Macbook Pro problems.

If you find yourself with similar problems, I suggest you document everything
as thoroughly as possible, whether it is conversations with AppleCare via
phone, or emails to Apple, or conversations in person with Apple Store employees.
I did keep track of events and this helped things work out in my favor. Also,
the sooner you can talk directly with an Apple Store top level manager the better,
because in the store they are the people who can actually make a decision to
do something, whereas lower level store employees lack such power and thus all
the lower level people can do is talk, which does not result in a new machine being
given to you.

If you call AppleCare, I STRONGLY urge you to "escalate" the call until you get to
a person who doesn't have to read from a script to converse with you. I did this and finally
was able to speak with a fellow who had engineer-level expertise. Unlike the typical AppleCare
person this guy really knew his stuff and I am quite certain that talking with this guy made the difference
in my situation being resolved to my satisfaction.

Finally, much of the time I spent talking with AppleCare and Apple Store employees was a complete waste
of time and was incredibly frustrating. It was obvious that most of the people I interacted with thought I
could not possibly know anything and that their main purpose was to "humor me" and get me out of their
way as soon as possible. Throughout this frustrating process I kept my cool, and I believe that remaining calm and
never raising my voice helped the people who actually could help me "want" to help me ( let's face it, if you are
a belligerent asshole, some people will avoid helping even if they could help ). So, if you are faced with a problem
machine, be methodical and remain calm and never give up. It took me three weeks of talking to various Apple
employees on a daily basis before my situation was resolved, and I could not help but think that some of them
were "hoping I'd give up and go away", but I took pains to make sure they understood that until I got a new machine
I was never ever going to go away, and this "calm but persistent" strategy worked.

*

Viva la Norwege

[Anonymous Coward]

Atleast as a private person you got 5 years warranty here in Norway, companies don't have that same option. If Apple denies that they are not allowed to sell goods here.

Re:ATI hardware

[robthebloke]

They've had the same QC issues with Nvidia chips in MBP's in the past (GT8600M). Last time they extended the warranties. This time.... ?

Re:Apple = Disposable

[Grishnakh]

Apple hates their customers. I have no clue why anyone does business with them.

I can give you one explanation: Windows 8.

Re:Sorry they're out of warranty

[Grishnakh]

Actually, this sounds like a solder ball problem, not a capacitor problem. There's two main problems with electronics these days: 1) shitty capacitors (electrolytic, low-quality Chinese-made, frequently under-specced; problem easily solved by replacing high equivalent-capacitace Japanese caps with 105C and higher voltage ratings), and 2) lead-free solder. There have been a lot of cases of products failing because of lead-free solder balls under BGA packages. Reflowing them helps, but a more permanent and durable solution is to "re-ball" them with leaded solder balls instead. Leaded solder is far superior to lead-free types, as it melts at a lower temperature, is much less brittle, and doesn't grow tin whiskers.

Interesting

[odoketa]

We have about 30 of these machines, and have noticed a higher than expected failure rate, specifically on the gpu. We've been waiting for an official announcement, but since we have AppleCare haven't been bothered. There is very little question in my mind there's an issue, and I'm finding it interesting and revealing to watch how this plays out.

Similar Problem with 2007 models

[SirAudioMan]

Years ago I bought a refurbished 2007 model 17" MBP that was less than year old when I ordered it from Apple's refurbished online store in 2008. Upon receiving it, ON FIRST BOOT I noticed a very similar problem. It would start to boot, video output was all distorted and then it would kernel panic! I ended up calling Apple as my unit did have a 30 or 60 day or something like that warranty. We tried a bunch of things like resetting the NVRAM, etc but the problem still occurred but only on hard boot from cold. I ended up taking pictures of the screen and sending them to Apple who then happily did a warranty swap with no questions asked. I still have the second MBP which worked greated for years. It never gets used now because it so old and the battery is shot but the build quality and ergonomics on those models were far superior to the new ones. I would love to install Linux on it but I wasn't able to get past the UEFI boot process.

Mark

For people impacted by this issues

[ssimpson]

Join the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2011mbp/

Keep up to date with the news articles: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Eb-f4R0rWNfK5gPPw4O38bCJZUh5zLTjxj3qSKtqXkA/edit

Mail Tim Cook and express your frustration, politely: tcook[at]apple.com

Sign the petition: https://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/timothy-d-cook-replace-or-fix-all-early-2011-macbook-pro-with-graphics-failure

Re: Not for poor people!

[Hognoxious]

That's unfair. It's not all of him, just his cock.

"It just works..."

[guygo]

NOT!

Quality standard were different 30 years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

A refrigerator from 30 years ago was built to last. Modern appliances have every penny that could be saved taken into account.

That said, a 30 year old refrigerator isn't nearly as energy efficient as a modern one. You might be surprised to learn that a new one might pay for itself in two years from the savings in energy alone.

Re:Quality standard were different 30 years ago

[Ardipithecus]

They even protect from nuclear blast.

Is the root cause overheating???

[nbritton]

What is the root cause? I drive a 32" LCD TV with my Early 2011 MBP, it worked flawlessly in Lion, but Mavericks I have notice many glitches... I just assumed it was Apple's reworking of the multiple monitor code that was flaky. I seem to recall these machines have dual video drivers. If it's the internal ATI Radeon GPU that is faulty, can you force it into internal graphics mode? Or vice versa?

Is heat a factor? If so, Apple should be able to tweak the cooling thresholds with a firmware update.

Re:Is the root cause overheating???

[Voyager529]

Is heat a factor? If so, Apple should be able to tweak the cooling thresholds with a firmware update.

I'm not an engineer, but I don't think that that's going to truly solve the problem at this point.

Even if Apple did this tomorrow, you still have GPUs with over two years of heat wear involved. Similarly, depending on the situation, maxing out the fans at the first sign of a Youtube video may be nice and all, but depending on the situation, the solution would be to ratchet down the clock speed of the GPU, which will NOT make happy campers out of the people who want that GPU to run at full speed during render/transcode/gaming operations.

I would concur that Apple should do this in addition to replacing the affected GPUs (so that they have a fresh start), but in lieu of it seems to only be asking for trouble down the road.

Whew... almost worried.

[Lumpy]

It is only the 15 and 13 inch models. the 17" models do not have the same problems. That makes me happy as my 17" is my workhorse. The only laptop you could buy at the time with a Matte 1920X1080 screen and had decent hardware build. All other brand laptops made in 2011 were garbage with low res or the crap shiny screens.

poor fan boys

[Lawrence_Bird]

guess they wish they had another fan? Those same fan boys want people to believe that we should pay a significant premium for "Apple build quality," yet there are more than enough stories like this one that show Apple build quality (and/or design) is not worth a premium over the likes of Lenovo, HP, etc. Of course, those same fanboys who would trash those companies if the failure was in one of their laptops will simply blame AMD and not Apple for this event.

Re:poor fan boys

[angel'o'sphere]

The fan boys want Mac OS X. The other brands are interesting when they run a decent *nix, have good desktop apps, that interact well with each other and they are scriptable with a high level scripting language.
And regarding price: the idea that Macs cost a premium versus similar specced alternatives got often enough debunked here on /.

Re:poor fan boys

[Anonymous Coward]

Scriptable? Unix? You must be joking. Apple caters to the kind of crowd that's impressed by the same old stuff put in a different case. They are a fashion brand, nothing more.

MacOS is about as anti-Unix as it gets. It's a closed hive mind mindset that screeches at anything remotely creative. The OS is not a malware breeding ground but that's the end of it's advantage. The apps are actually mediocre and limited. They manifest the clear anti-intellectual attitudes that pervade Apple and it's user community.

Re:poor fan boys

[ArchieBunker]

Are you kidding me? I can buy ten cheap laptops for the price of one new macbook pro. Hell throw one away every few months and you might still outlast Apple.

Re:Since its all the same

[JTinMSP]

Why yes, you can just replace the graphics cards and other internals oh-so-easily on all non-Apple laptops. *facepalm*

MXM...meh

[iMouse]

Apple had used MXM II and MXM III slots/cards for several years in the iMac. Like with the MacBook/MacBook Pro line, they've moved the iMac to a soldered GPU solution as well.

With the way Apple crams components into notebooks less than an inch thick, I can't really see an MXM slot being possible. The thickness of the logic board, MXM card and thermal plate for the GPU die on my iMac is thicker than my 2011 MacBook Pro.

I completely agree that Apple should explore replaceable GPU options, but they're not gonna be able to get it done with the current MXM standard.

Re:MXM...meh

[Khyber]

They can get it done. MXM does have a standard for fewer-layer PCB implementations and a micro slot.

I guess no one looked at the pictures?

[tlambert]

I guess no one looked at the pictures?

3 LCD cable problems, likely from rough treatment, and one damaged area of liquid crystal from an impact to the back of the case (same thing I did to my Sony VAIO, and had to replace the LCD on the thing).

Not sure how these qualify as a problem with the GPU. At worst, the one with the wide bars is broken cable strands from some idiot setting the thing down and making a triangle by laying it down face down with the screen open, like you would a book, and the LCD cable would need to be replaced; the other two are guaranteed they just need to reseat the connector and quit beating the shit out of the thing.

Consumer rights

[FaxeTheCat]

So this is a reason why some countries have consumer rights protecting them from this kind of problem.
Where I live, there is a mandatory five year protection against manufacturing defects.
As it happens, my sons 2011 MacBook Pro failed last week. Did not boot. Got it back yesterday with a new motherboard. No cost.

Re:Consumer rights

[ukoda]

I was going to post the same thing. I can say for sure that this class of failure would normally be covered under New Zealand consumer law no matter how old the machine is.

Nonsense!

[Thomas Miconi]

The real reason your GPU failed is obviously that you're looking at the screen wrong!

Re:What do you mean, just the GPU fails?

[Khyber]

Open laptop, get new APU, install. Apply fresh thermal paste, reseat thermal module, reassemble laptop.

Replaced. HA!

Re:What do you mean, just the GPU fails?

[ihtoit]

you've never looked under the keyboard of a Dell Inspiron 8000 series or a C640/C840, I take it? They have Mobile AGP cards that just pop right off.

Re:What do you mean, just the GPU fails?

[ihtoit]

wonder how easy that'd be on a board with a soldered-on APU... like most, if not all, of the E350 units?

Re:What do you mean, just the GPU fails?

[Khyber]

Anyone remotely skilled with a heat gun could do the part swap.

Re:Apple Forum Post, Account crippled within 5'

[ndverdo]

Having posted the referenced lengthy account of my GPU issues above I need to retreat the line of argument that it falls into the same issue category as my MBP and is not the by others faulted Early 2011 model.

My MacBook with the issues described is a:
Retina MacBook Pro Mid 2012 a.k.a.
MacBookPro10,1 Sales# MC975LL/A, Model# A1398, Production week 27-2012
with a discrete NVIDIA GT650M chip.

The issue of a lack of transparancy on HW issues I can nevertheless underline from having an issue-ridden MBP from another prior episode. The (first) Intel MBP 2006 I had in use produced a high pitch whining noise which similarly resulted in 2 mainboard swaps. The time it took until it became an acknowledged issue with service being aware of it was lengthy, and the customer experience then mimicked the one described before.

Re:Handling of recall-level issues

[ndverdo]

Having posted the referenced lengthy account of my GPU issues above I need to retreat the line of argument that it falls into the same issue category as my MBP and is not the by others faulted Early 2011 model.

My MacBook with the issues described is a:
Retina MacBook Pro Mid 2012 a.k.a.
MacBookPro10,1 Sales# MC975LL/A, Model# A1398, Production week 27-2012
with a discrete NVIDIA GT650M chip.

The issue of a lack of transparancy on HW issues I can nevertheless underline from having an issue-ridden MBP from another prior episode. The (first) Intel MBP 2006 I had in use produced a high pitch whining noise which similarly resulted in 2 mainboard swaps. The time it took until it became an acknowledged issue with service being aware of it was lengthy, and the customer experience then mimicked the one described before...

And you paid a premium for that device!

[JohnnyConservative]

Welcome to Apples' built in obsolescense!!

Re:Since its all the same

[konohitowa]

Now if only you'd crack open an Apple laptop & find the same thing. But we wouldn't want you to learn something; you might make all the other ACs look bad.

It's true.

[countach]

My MacBook Pro 17" 2011 failed in the last couple of months. Fortunately it was in the last few months of apple care. It was hard to diagnose though because it was intermittent.