HP To Charge For Service Packs and Firmware For Out-of-Warranty Customers

Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep... by Noishkel · 2014-02-04 19:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

... they sure as hell will now.

I'm not an IT person, but weren't there a few companies that tried this crap wwaayy back when? I seem to remember them all failing miserably.

oh well by epyT-R · 2014-02-04 19:20 · Score: 5, Insightful

One more reason to avoid buying or recommending HP to would be buyers. The last thing I'd want to deal with is not being able to get a copy of a firmware update for someone's out of warranty system, server or not because I'm not "HP certified support" or whatever. In 2014, there is no fucking reason whatsoever to not have all issued patches available as direct downloads. This is especially true for legacy hardware.

Re:oh well by omglolbah · 2014-02-04 19:31 · Score: 5, Interesting

Yeah.... this is going to bite them in the ass... hard.
We recently had an issue with HP servers showing temperatures of 255C on motherboard sensors...
They said this was a firmware issue and told us to flash the bios to fix this. We did... the sensor now shows -127C. Big help.
It actually required a motherboard replacement and they claimed this was -not- a warranty issue because the server was too old. In the meantime we've had 4 more servers have this issue, which makes them unusable in our environment (oil rig HMI).
Would they now not give us the fix without us feeding them a bit of cash? Fuck them.
Re:oh well by virtualjc · 2014-02-04 19:43 · Score: 1

Surprise Surprise Surprise - Yet another technology company that goes out of their way to fail by not standing behind their products and customers. A ridiculous policy. Well, that's ok, plenty of other companies stand to profit when their customer's current systems are in need of replacement, did they really think they'll be knocking on their door? Lost opportunity = Lost sales.
Re:oh well by Isaac-1 · 2014-02-04 19:45 · Score: 2

HP is well onto the course IBM was 25 years ago, shoot yourself in the foot, and repeat
Re:oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:52 · Score: 0

Hey you have gone from FF to FFFFFF81.
That's 48 bits of intellectual property for free. FREE!!! Bloody moochers.
It takes an awful lot of highly specialised engineers, trained for years by HP, to accomplish that. They need to be paid....
Re:oh well by JanneM · 2014-02-04 20:01 · Score: 4, Funny

We recently had an issue with HP servers showing temperatures of 255C on motherboard sensors...
They said this was a firmware issue and told us to flash the bios to fix this. We did... the sensor now shows -127C. Big help.
"Big help" - Why are you complaining? This is great! Think of the electricity savings! Not only can you stop cooling these servers, you can actually use them to cool your other hardware!
You're not thinking outside the box, that's the problem with you young people.

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Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Re:oh well by bazorg · 2014-02-04 20:24 · Score: 1

not being able to get a copy of a firmware update for someone's out of warranty system, server or not because I'm not "HP certified support" or whatever
If I read TFS correctly, your customer can access the required resources as long as they have a valid support agreement in place with HP.
It looks to me that HP is saying that hardware buyers are only entitled to a license for software patches if they pay some sort of annual rent. Some will pay, some will shop elsewhere.
Re:oh well by distilate · 2014-02-04 20:34 · Score: 1

HP is well onto the course IBM was 25 years ago, shoot yourself in the foot, and repeat
Someone should show them the AA12, its the perfect weapon for this
Re: oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 20:48 · Score: 0

fyi this is a sensor failure. you can fix it yourself easily.
Re:oh well by TheP4st · 2014-02-04 21:10 · Score: 2

We did... the sensor now shows -127C. Big help.
Your tune will change quickly when the fridge stop working and you can chill your mountain dew in an instant.

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"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
Re:oh well by TheInternetGuy · 2014-02-04 21:59 · Score: 1

HP is well onto the course IBM was 25 years ago, shoot yourself in the foot, and repeat
Someone should show them the AA12, its the perfect weapon for this
I thought we were supposed to use C++ for this.

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If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame
Re:oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 22:02 · Score: 0

One more reason to avoid buying or recommending HP to would be buyers. The last thing I'd want to deal with is not being able to get a copy of a firmware update for someone's out of warranty system, server or not because I'm not "HP certified support" or whatever. In 2014, there is no fucking reason whatsoever to not have all issued patches available as direct downloads. This is especially true for legacy hardware.
In 2014, there is not fucking reason whatsoever for Ford Motor Company to not have every single service manual for every model of Ford car in stock. This is especially true for classic or vintage models.
Not saying I agree with HP's move. Just saying. Not everything is as black and white as it seems.
Re:oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 22:09 · Score: 0

I suspect it's a unsigned to signed char change, so no bits gained. Would be too generous for HP to gift bits anyway.
Re:oh well by Swave+An+deBwoner · 2014-02-04 23:08 · Score: 3, Informative

Not the same. HP will have the patches available for download because their customers with a valid support contract in place will be entitled to download them.
HP has already sold the hardware product and finally done the work to create and stage the patches that they claim will fix the mistakes they had in place when they sold the hardware.
The difference is that if you don't pay the extortion money for a valid support contract for your out of warranty server, they will no longer let you have the patches they already made to fix the bugs they already shipped you.
If only there were some other enterprise class server vendor that we could purchase from. But who? Where?
Re:oh well by cygnwolf · 2014-02-04 23:58 · Score: 1

So, to correct GP's car analogy, This is like the Ford Motor Company having the service manuals in stock, but refusing to sell them to you unless you've been buying the extra-extra-extended warranty policy year after year

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Free Pie! The Pie is Also Evil!
Re:oh well by RaceProUK · 2014-02-05 01:00 · Score: 2

HP is well onto the course IBM was 25 years ago, shoot yourself in the foot, and repeat
Someone should show them the AA12, its the perfect weapon for this
I thought we were supposed to use C++ for this.
If you did, you'd spawn a million copies of yourself, and shoot them all in the foot. Medical assistance would prove impossible as you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the genuine copies, and those that simply point and say 'That's me, over there'.

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No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
Re: oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:16 · Score: 0

No, that's what fortran is for.
Re: oh well by Mabhatter · 2014-02-05 01:58 · Score: 2

If you haven't paid them any money for THREE YEARS are you really their customer still? What are YOU offering them?
Not being picky, just saying if you're not PAYING, you cost them money.
Re: oh well by O('_')O_Bush · 2014-02-05 02:18 · Score: 1

And that mindset is the problem. They sold defective products (didn't fulfill their end of the contract) and refuse to fix them despite you paying them money initially to fulfill their contract for working products... because they don't want to hurt their profits made from selling you defective products.

And you are blaming the victim? Ethics much?

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while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Re: oh well by nabsltd · 2014-02-05 02:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you haven't paid them any money for THREE YEARS are you really their customer still?
Who says I'm not paying them money? I could have spent a lot of money buying other hardware from them. Part of the reason I'm likely buying new hardware from them is that three-to-five-year-old hardware that still generally works fine is a good sign that they make a quality product.
But, an issue could come up with that old hardware that a firmware update fixes, and the company has a choice: get me the patch or stop getting money from me for new hardware as I drop them for somebody with better customer service. Why should I keep paying money for the same hardware?
The key is, software/firmware patches are like any other digital data, in that they have essentially zero cost to the manufacturer after they are created. It's not like I'm asking them to replace an out-of-warranty hard drive for free. And, I'm perfectly fine with a company that says "we will stop writing any firmware updates for hardware X months after that hardware is last sold by us".
An example of a company that does it right is SuperMicro. I have pretty much nothing but their motherboards in my servers at home, and I can't afford bleeding edge, so I buy older hardware (but often still new in box). I have had no issues downloading firmware updates for what are now 5-year-old motherboards. One update increased the memory a motherboard could handle by a factor of four. That's a huge added value that makes me likely to keep that motherboard for even longer, and make me want them to support it even longer, and yet they did this for free. That's why I spent more money buying their hardware for later builds. And, for those of you who might want to talk smack about SuperMicro equipment, take a look at the motherboards and cases in hardware from EMC, Dell, and Penguin Computing, and you'll see that many are re-badged SuperMicro. It's no different from Dell, IBM, and Intel re-badging LSI RAID cards.
Re:oh well by Wierdy1024 · 2014-02-05 02:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

To be honest, it probably was a hardware issue...
Often, those sensors are on the SMI bus (which is (basically) an 8 bit serial bus), and a chip disconnected from the SMI bus returns all binary "1"'s. If they treat that as unsigned, it is 255. If they treat it as sign and magnitude, it's -127.
Either way the problem probably is the chip has been knocked and broken off the motherboard slightly.
Re:oh well by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2014-02-05 03:25 · Score: 1

Awww, come on .ow. Like the kind of people who make technical purchase recommendations read slashdot.

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(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Re:oh well by Thomas+Miconi · 2014-02-05 05:40 · Score: 1

We recently had an issue with HP servers showing temperatures of 255C on motherboard sensors...
They said this was a firmware issue and told us to flash the bios to fix this. We did... the sensor now shows -127C. Big help.
"Big help" - Why are you complaining? This is great! Think of the electricity savings! Not only can you stop cooling these servers, you can actually use them to cool your other hardware!
You're not thinking outside the box, that's the problem with you young people.
"HP Software Cooling Systems [tm] - unleash the power of unsigned char!"
Re:oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:05 · Score: 0

Well you would if you knew how distinguish objects from references to objects. Let me guess, you're from India aren't you?
Re:oh well by RaceProUK · 2014-02-05 06:12 · Score: 1

Whoosh

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No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
Re: oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:20 · Score: 0

In their mind once they've sold you a server it's yours. Software updates (read fixes to stuff they fucked up in the first place) requires the time of a developer, and as such should be passed on to you as a consumer. You're going to pay for it either way. You pay for it in the maintenance, or they increase the price of the server to cover their costs. It's BS, but it's how it works. Don't like it? Start your own company and build a better mouse trap.
Re:oh well by omglolbah · 2014-02-05 10:12 · Score: 1

On several servers over the course of 4 years?...
Re:oh well by omglolbah · 2014-02-05 10:13 · Score: 1

Where I work the engineers pick the hardware. Not a bad place in that way.
Re:oh well by Wierdy1024 · 2014-02-05 12:24 · Score: 1

If they didn't all happen at once with a software update, probably, yes.
It might be a design fault (ie. whoops you put that chip too near that screw, and they rub on each other and over time the chip eventually falls off), or a manufacturing fault (wrong type of solder used, and as the board expands and contracts, the solder flexes and eventually cracks). But it's probably still a hardware fault.
If HP really cared, they would take back the faulty server, take it to their lab, and remove and test the temperature sensor itself and figure out the *exact* cause of the problem.
Re:oh well by omglolbah · 2014-02-05 19:16 · Score: 1

They know the exact cause of the problem, they just wont tell us.
"This is a known issue with the ProLiant 380DL G5 series."
Yet they do not consider it a production flaw or a bug, even though it will require a motherboard replacement to fix. They consider it "not our problem" so customers are left to hunt the market for refurb machines to replace em.. (we're locked into a certain line due to the HUGE costs of re-certifying the system if we change anything..)
Re: oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-06 04:00 · Score: 0

>>An example of a company that does it right is SuperMicro.
Ditto that! I have been using SuperMicro servers in my data centers for a few years now. Not only are they better priced than HP and Dell, they perform the same.
Re:oh well by swalve · 2014-02-06 05:38 · Score: 1

Or you could invest a couple hundred bucks and become an HP certified professional. It's 2014 for christ's sake, there is no excuse to be selling your services without something as basic as that.
Re:oh well by swalve · 2014-02-06 05:44 · Score: 1

If your hardware still has bugs that need to be fixed after the three years of warranty coverage, they can't be all that important.
Re: oh well by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-10 20:41 · Score: 0

> Not everything is as black and white as it seems.
Well, no, but you can have a Ford in any color as long as it's black. Henry Ford himself said so.
Re:oh well by LoRdTAW · 2014-02-12 08:12 · Score: 1

You said these were on an oil rig. Might there be a vibration problem? Drilling rig, diesel engines, pumps, compressors etc. all produce vibration. Even with dampening there might be a minute amount of movement that still shook something enough to damage the chips.

company charges for paid support by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

does not qualify as news

Re:company charges for paid support by ttucker · 2014-02-04 20:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

does not qualify as news
This is not pay for support. This is pay for firmware updates. Sure, they can charge for them when nobody else does... but I can also buy elsewhere. Fuck them, and Cisco can suck it too. Correcting bugs in 512k of firmware code is hardly adding a new feature, and doing what you are supposed to anyways is hardly premium support.
Re:company charges for paid support by sjames · 2014-02-04 23:28 · Score: 1

More like company demands more money to fix manufacturing defects.
Re:company charges for paid support by guytoronto · 2014-02-05 02:22 · Score: 2

This is not pay for support. This is pay for firmware updates.
How is a firmware update not support? How would you define support?
Who pays the cost to fix old, out-of-date drivers and firmware? Is HP supposed to do it out of the goodness of their heart? At what point do they stop patching problems? An easy metric is how many support contracts they have in place for a specific piece of hardware. And the people who do pay for ongoing support shouldn't have to be subsidizing those who don't want to pay.
Re:company charges for paid support by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:53 · Score: 0

we're not talking about fixing out of date firmware, we're talking about fixing buggy firmware, i.e. it was broken when sold, damn strait they should make available the fix, and not have it and ask extra
Re:company charges for paid support by citylivin · 2014-02-05 04:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

"Who pays the cost to fix old, out-of-date drivers and firmware? Is HP supposed to do it out of the goodness of their heart?"
Bullshit. A firmware update generally addresses some sort of bug or deficiency. By not patching it freely, HP is admitting that they sold you a flawed product. So I should be able to then demand my money back. It is their RESPONSIBILITY to fix it!!
As others have said, the worst company with this is cisco. The second worst is sonicwall. Fuck sonicwall and their paid updates!! I had to throw out a perfectly good VPN appliance whoes compact flash card had died because they would not let me download a firmware for the unit. Not because I didnt have a service contract with them, but because I didnt have a service contract for that one particular VPN appliance. I had another contract with another appliance which we purchased later.
If the fix is already made, then keeping it from former customers unless they pay up is spiteful ransom. A firmware update is addressing flaws in the vendors product. The vendor would do well to get them fixed, or you get a very bad reputation such as sonicwall has with me now.
If I had to maintain support contracts with every vendor i've ever done business with on the off chance that one day I will need an update, I would not be able to ever purchase anything new. Your old assets would become drags. This is similar to why I always try and find open source software alternatives for everything I possibly can. Specifically because in software world, it is very common to charge for every update. Result, I don't buy much paid for software when I have open source alternatives. With hardware, its a lot harder to change products when some bug is encountered.
All this is is a giant ad for dell servers, who I have never had a problem with getting drivers or updates for. If dell can do it, then sure as shit HP can. I was actually looking at HP servers for a friend, but I guess I will be recommending dell now. HP fails it. Short term profits trump everything and I am so sick of it.

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As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
Re:company charges for paid support by sjames · 2014-02-05 05:45 · Score: 2

Who pays the cost to fix old, out-of-date drivers and firmware? Is HP supposed to do it out of the goodness of their heart?
No, they're supposed to provide perfect firmware and drivers from the start. Since it's easily fixable later and perfect software is known to be very difficult, we can cut them some slack and allow them to provide fixes in the form of updates rather than demanding a replacement machine. But for them, to demand payment to fix something that shouldn't have been wrong in the first place is going a bit far.
Re:company charges for paid support by ttucker · 2014-02-05 06:29 · Score: 2

I just canceled an HP order for a significant number of machines in favor of Dell, thanks to this article.

Government Regulation?? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:24 · Score: 0

Too bad security updates aren't legally mandated to be distributed for free for the life of the unit. Other updates they should be able to require a current agreement.

Re:Government Regulation?? by epyT-R · 2014-02-04 19:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

It shouldn't be a legal mandate either. Keeping already released patches available should be a courtesy that all vendors willingly do. The good will encourages repeat buys. Eventually, vendor support will be so expensive and so unappealing that people will just run a free unix on commodity hardware because they get better help from internet forums than they do from vendors.
Re:Government Regulation?? by ttucker · 2014-02-04 20:08 · Score: 1

It shouldn't be a legal mandate either. Keeping already released patches available should be a courtesy that all vendors willingly do. The good will encourages repeat buys. Eventually, vendor support will be so expensive and so unappealing that people will just run a free unix on commodity hardware because they get better help from internet forums than they do from vendors.
I won't touch Cisco gear with a 10 ft pole, and this is exactly why.
Re:Government Regulation?? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:15 · Score: 0

Cisco and Oracle don't do it. I think Dell is the only major vendor left that does left anyone download patches regardless of support status.
Think of it this way, if you're not the sort of customer who can afford a support contract, you're probably not the sort of customer who is going to buy hardware from HP in any meaningful volume for them to care.
Re:Government Regulation?? by Frobnicator · 2014-02-05 00:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

I won't touch Cisco gear with a 10 ft pole, and this is exactly why.
On the other hand...
When working in a Fortune 500 company there were some mighty expensive premium contracts with Cisco. Among them was an agreement I learned about when we had an outage late in the afternoon that affected about 15 people. We have hardware that could have affected hundreds of people, but in this case the outage only affected a few.
Cisco found the closest duplicate replacement part in another state, chartered a flight to a nearby airport, had a taxi driver on standby when the plane arrived, and delivered it to our door within about four hours of reporting the fairly minor problem.
I understand the contract is in place because we had hardware that affects hundreds of thousands of people. The Cisco crew was adamant that the contract had a clause that required a six-hour turnaround on any of that class of hardware. If it had been a major device at a major data center those same four hours could have felt like an eternity, so for those people where an outage can cost thousands of dollars every second in lost productivity and sales I can certainly understand the need for the contract with the devil.

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//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Re:Government Regulation?? by AmiMoJo · 2014-02-05 00:32 · Score: 1

Car manufacturers have a legal requirement to make sure parts are available for a certain number of years after the last one rolls off the production line. If you buy something expensive like a car or high end server that seems like a reasonable consumer protection.

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const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Government Regulation?? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:39 · Score: 0

Yes. But not free. ;) HP has patches - pay. Car manufacturers have replacement parts. Pay.
Re: Government Regulation?? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:43 · Score: 0

There are millions of small businesses that buy servers. If HP only wants volume buyers then they can watch other server manufactures meet the needs of those of us who runs mall businesses.
Re: Government Regulation?? by lostfayth · 2014-02-05 01:09 · Score: 1

ever priced updating the firmware in your car outside of the warranty period?
Re: Government Regulation?? by Mabhatter · 2014-02-05 02:12 · Score: 1

Outrageously expensive, if available at all. I've had to replace an ECU and pulling from scrap was far cheaper than new. $200 vs $700
Re:Government Regulation?? by ReallyEvilCanine · 2014-02-05 02:33 · Score: 1

There is a legal mandate: suitability to task. TOS/EULA be damned (or at least finally tried properly in court), they have contractually obligated themselves to provide the necessary materials (hardware/firmware) in making a sale/lease/licensing agreement and, as bugs are exposed and updates required, demonstrated a failure at the "manufacturing" level for which they are liable. It's only going to take one large customer and an otherwise slow news week to resolve this one.
Re:Government Regulation?? by Grishnakh · 2014-02-05 02:53 · Score: 1

I think Dell is the only major vendor left that does left anyone download patches regardless of support status.
And Dell isn't doing too well these days.
Re: Government Regulation?? by AmiMoJo · 2014-02-05 03:23 · Score: 3, Informative

Such things are covered under the Sale of Goods Act as manufacturing defects, since clearly any bugs would have been there when the car was built. The SOGA says goods must last a "reasonable length of time", which for a car has been generally viewed by the courts as at least 15 years.
Therefore any manufacturing defects discovered in the first 15 years of the car's life are covered by the warranty. The manufacturer can either do the fix for free, offer you a replacement car or refund part of the purchase price proportional to how long you have had the car (so after 10 years you might get 1/3rd of the money back, or whatever the market value of the car is).

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Government Regulation?? by shuz · 2014-02-05 03:52 · Score: 1

Companies typically buy HP for their warrantied support. When I have an HP hardware issue I don't throw out the "commodity" hardware and buy new, I call up my vendor, order a new part and/or a tech to come out and fix the issue. If you don't have paid support for this you are just as likely to have hardware components fail as or more so than having a firmware bug bricking your server. Running expensive commercial servers without support is pretty silly and this news should not come as a big surprise.

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There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
Re: Government Regulation?? by frinkster · 2014-02-05 04:01 · Score: 1

ever priced updating the firmware in your car outside of the warranty period?
Oil changes at my local Volvo dealership are cheaper than the independent shop down the street (and I live in a high rise so I can't exactly change the oil myself). Any time a car comes into the service garage at that dealer they hook it up to the computer which runs a diagnostic scan and then pushes all software updates that are available. Why not - it makes for happy customers and doesn't cost them a dime.
Re:Government Regulation?? by evilviper · 2014-02-05 04:22 · Score: 1

Cisco found the closest duplicate replacement part in another state, chartered a flight to a nearby airport, had a taxi driver on standby when the plane arrived, and delivered it to our door within about four hours of reporting the fairly minor problem.
For far less money than the Cisco support contract, you could have just bought several spares of each model of Cisco device, and have had the replacement on-hand a quickly as you could walk over and grab it.
That's been my experience with Cisco TAC all-around. Their "support" is so awful that maintaining a testing lab is far more cost-effective, and far less frustrating to your IT department. Hell, I'd count Cisco TAC as less-than-worthless, as they constantly waste large amounts of my time trying to understand the issue, have me gather logs of obviously irrelevant information, and worst of all, always tell me I'm wrong, or that their hardware can't work for non-trivial-job XYZ, leaving me to convince my boss that even though they are representatives of the manufacturer, they're idiots that don't actually know anything, and have zero motivation to help.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Government Regulation?? by digsbo · 2014-02-05 05:01 · Score: 1

Given the way so many companies run out-of-support systems you would also have to mandate that customers download and install the updates.
Re:Government Regulation?? by Frobnicator · 2014-02-05 05:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

Cisco found the closest duplicate replacement part in another state, chartered a flight to a nearby airport, had a taxi driver on standby when the plane arrived, and delivered it to our door within about four hours of reporting the fairly minor problem.
For far less money than the Cisco support contract, you could have just bought several spares of each model of Cisco device, and have had the replacement on-hand a quickly as you could walk over and grab it.
Perhaps you missed the first part of my post. Fortune 500 data center.
If you are talking about consumer devices and even common office server room equipment that is quite true. We had lots of commodity stuff lying around. We also kept a bit of less common stuff around, such as spare UPS racks; the $30,000 price tag is low enough cost that we could keep a few of them around when equipment shuffles.
Note that some critical equipment gets mighty expensive. You can find a good deal on low latency, high volume interconnect that can handle ten million concurrent connections for around $250K, but you'll probably want to pay around $350K for the better ones. It would be insane to just keep a few of EVERYTHING lying around, just in case. Far cheaper for the Cisco contract that will get us any replacement we need, quickly.

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//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
Re:Government Regulation?? by ttucker · 2014-02-05 06:26 · Score: 1

I am not arguing that support contracts are worthless, reality could not be further from the truth. What irks me about Cisco is that they are selling this security critical hardware, but not providing trivial security patches to end users (who have already spent thousands of dollars on Ci$co stuff) that do not have the private jet service. Furthermore, they live the manufacturers wet dream of killing the used market by not providing support (and trivial security fixes) for used hardware.

Another thought is that redundant hardware provides seconds of downtime while even the most expensive service contract is going to result in hours....
Re:Government Regulation?? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 07:15 · Score: 0

Believe me they charge a lot of money for those contracts too. We have similar contracts here.
Re:Government Regulation?? by rahvin112 · 2014-02-05 07:21 · Score: 1

15 people for 4 hours is thousands of dollars. An average white collar worker makes, (with overhead and benefits) around $100 a hours. 15 * $100 * 4 = $6000 wasted. Even a single person unable to work for a few hours will often FAR exceed the value of the hardware involved,
I'm always amazed at how many people in IT fail to grasp this simple fact.
Re:Government Regulation?? by drsmithy · 2014-02-05 10:10 · Score: 1

We have millions of dollars invested in HP hardware.
We typically only have 3yr support contracts on servers, first and foremost to handle hardware failures.
After that time, servers are cycled out into low important, or non-production tasks. Failures in these roles usually result in wholesale machine replacement.
Maintaining support contracts for all those 3-6 year old machines is not viable, nor are we expecting _new_ problems to be addressed since they are out of contract.
Not being able to download _old_ patches, firmware, etc, to apply when the servers are cycled out of production, however, is bullshit.

Is this maybe justifiable? by Kleebner · 2014-02-04 19:24 · Score: 2

I cannot believe they would do something like this. Is there something that I do not understand about this? Is it really that much of a burden to provide access to updates?

Re:Is this maybe justifiable? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:36 · Score: 0

This is to help the NSA to target servers of Interest.
Or maybe pay for having to keep backdoor software and firmware up to date.
Hopefully a 3rd party clearing house will replicate the top 80% everything .
Re:Is this maybe justifiable? by FaxeTheCat · 2014-02-04 19:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

Is there something that I do not understand about this?
Yes. They want more customers to pay for support.
What THEY do not understand is that people will start buying Dell.
Re:Is this maybe justifiable? by khasim · 2014-02-04 20:17 · Score: 1

Is it really that much of a burden to provide access to updates?
It costs MORE to put a system in place to verify your contract status before allowing you to download something than it does to just have the download publicly available.
If this was about saving money they'd look into a torrent.
This is about trying to turn an expense into a profit.
Re:Is this maybe justifiable? by AmiMoJo · 2014-02-04 20:32 · Score: 1

But.. but... they are going to "provide the best value and experience for our customers"! Surely paying for vital security and bug fixes to make your product work properly is a better value experience than getting them for free!?
Their statement is like a parody of reason.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Is this maybe justifiable? by coastwalker · 2014-02-05 00:10 · Score: 2

it will certainly destroy the value of their second hand equipment.
All of my home computing is three year old refurbished corporate stuff precisely because it does have decent bug fixing and driver updates. Quite apart from being less than a third of the original sale price to buy.
Lenovo support is still free.
Wonder what is going to be done with all the thousands of tons of useless HP equipment at the end of its three year life? I hear that landfill is pretty much full these days.

--
Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
Re:Is this maybe justifiable? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:34 · Score: 0

Is there something that I do not understand about this?
Yes. They want more customers to pay for support.
What THEY do not understand is that people will start buying Dell.
Dell??? People are better off BUILDING their own servers from scratch if that is the other alternative...
Re:Is this maybe justifiable? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:51 · Score: 0

What about Supermicro?
That setup sticks 4 dual-socket opteron nodes in 2U with an Infiniband interconnect.

So there goes the secondary market by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:25 · Score: 0

If I can't download patches, fixes, drivers and whatnot from HP without a "support agreement" I will not be recycling used servers. They are going straight to the trash heap. But that's the point of all this isn't it? Thanks HP! Gee, is this the kind of decision making we are getting out of the "eBay CEO"? Stupid move.

HP used to be greatl by MarkvW · 2014-02-04 19:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hewlett and Packard were something special.

Now it's just a bunch of MBAs trying to massage their stock price.

Re:HP used to be greatl by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:51 · Score: 0

They went from reversd polish to reverse the charges.
Re:HP used to be greatl by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:58 · Score: 0

Ayup. Even pointing to the rest of the industry doing the same nickle-and-diming too--which is true, they're not the first to do this. Much like how thinkpads used to be great, but now they're just exactly like the rest of the offerings. Nothing special, in fact a bit crappy.
Re:HP used to be greatl by SJ · 2014-02-04 20:21 · Score: 5, Interesting

You're mistaking this company for the original HP. "HP" nowadays is actually Compaq. The old HP that everyone knew and loved is now (at least used to be) Aligent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...
They are now Aligent and Keysight.
So anywhere you read something about "HP" doing something stupid... Think "Compaq" instead, and it all makes sense.
Re:HP used to be greatl by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:39 · Score: 0

Actually - That makes a heap of sense.
No - I'm not being a cunt - Every time I hear HP doing some bone-headed thing, I thought to myself "why is an engineering company doing this?" If I think Compaq - It makes a heap of sense.
Re:HP used to be greatl by dargaud · 2014-02-04 22:46 · Score: 4, Informative

Aligent ? The company that, when I purchased memory upgrades for our digital oscilloscopes, send me a huge box. Containing carefully wrapped smaller boxes. Containing yet other carefully wrapped smaller boxes. Containing a wrapped envelopes. Containing a number to type on each oscilloscope, and 'poof!' magic, the memory doubled.
Needless to say I was outraged. Not so much at the waste of cardboard and foam material. Not so much at the fact that they couldn't send 8 numbers by email. No, at the fact that the memory was already inside our equipment that we'd paid for, but that we needed to pay extra to actually use it. Fuckers. I now do everything in my power to make sure we never buy from people who use this kind of commercial behavior.

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Non-Linux Penguins ?
Re:HP used to be greatl by dargaud · 2014-02-04 22:47 · Score: 1

Aligent. Agilent. Whatever. It's not like I need to remember their name except to avoid them.

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Non-Linux Penguins ?
Re:HP used to be greatl by Noxal · 2014-02-05 00:26 · Score: 1

Wow. Fuck that.
Re:HP used to be greatl by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 00:59 · Score: 2

Needless to say I was outraged. Not so much at the waste of cardboard and foam material. Not so much at the fact that they couldn't send 8 numbers by email. No, at the fact that the memory was already inside our equipment that we'd paid for, but that we needed to pay extra to actually use it.
So you're not angry that the vendor overcharges you for RAM, and for shipping, and is bad at packaging (HP sent me four cardboard boxes in a bigger cardboard box once just to send me four license keys printed out on paper as well, one sheet per box, one key per page) but you're mad that they've found a way to save money on shipping that actually saves you money and still permits them to sell you options which you don't even have to install? Would you like several large wheels of cheese with your inexplicable whine?

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:HP used to be greatl by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:04 · Score: 0

Just see what IBM and Oracle do with their UNIX servers memory and processors. For rapidly changing components, it is probably easier to deliver the system fully equipped rather than manufacturing over the production needs and keeping the old components in stock. It would be nice if after certain number of years those unlock codes would be free or disarmed for the old systems to increase customer satisfaction.
Re:HP used to be greatl by aaarrrgggh · 2014-02-05 01:57 · Score: 1

They must use the same packing department as hp still.
Re:HP used to be greatl by sonamchauhan · 2014-02-05 02:05 · Score: 1

Eh? A whine? Not to the 'rest-of-us' world.
Talk about missing the point. He (and every other customer) had to wear the hardware cost of the extra RAM, and then have Agilent nickel-and-dime them to activate it . Consider this the next time your car charges you to get past 60mph. Or use more than 3 cylinders. Or heat your seat in winter. Cars manufacturers don't do this (*)
(*=not yet... but see http://tech.slashdot.org/story...).
There's a good reason for that - the rest of us consider such behavior greedy and trashy!
Re:HP used to be greatl by iwbcman · 2014-02-05 02:43 · Score: 1

Common practice since the '60's on big machines(think mainframes)...
Hell, Ross Perot did that 2 generations ago with EDS
Of course back then they would send out a technician, who would vanish inside the mainframe to do the "memory upgrade", funnily enough the $10,000 "upgrade" was simply cutting a few resistors...
Re:HP used to be greatl by nabsltd · 2014-02-05 02:46 · Score: 1

They must use the same packing department as hp still.
And Cisco...although at least Cisco sent something physical inside the boxes.
We ordered RAM upgrades for 36 Cisco blades, for a total of 16 x 36 = 576 DIMMs. Each one came packed in an individual anti-static bag, inside a bubble-wrap bag, inside a small box, with 10 small boxes per large box, all on a couple of pallets to hold the 58 large boxes.
Re:HP used to be greatl by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 03:04 · Score: 1

Talk about missing the point. He (and every other customer) had to wear the hardware cost of the extra RAM, and then have Agilent nickel-and-dime them to activate it
I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED AND AMAZED I tell you that you would miss the point, and then accuse me of missing the point. They wouldn't do this unless it made economic sense. HP may not be able to make kit worth shit any longer, but they can still count beans. It only makes sense to do this because they overcharge for the memory in the first place. Given the actual price of the part, they save money by putting it in the server as opposed to dealing with the overhead of putting it in your hands, and the possibility of a support call if it goes wrong any time between manufacturing and activation. This permits them to test the performance of the memory in your system before shipping.
So again, what you should be incensed about is how they're putting the screws to you on the price of the memory in the first place.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:HP used to be greatl by dargaud · 2014-02-05 03:07 · Score: 1

For the life of me I do not understand this 'commercial strategy'. If the memory is already in it, then it's already paid for. Allow it directly and undercut the competition, it's not like it's costing you anything extra. And in the process you won't piss off the customer.

--
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Re:HP used to be greatl by petermgreen · 2014-02-05 03:17 · Score: 1

I now do everything in my power to make sure we never buy from people who use this kind of commercial behavior.
So who do you buy from when you need high end test gear? Afaict having some features of test equipment require unlock codes to activate is standard practice.

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note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Re:HP used to be greatl by eth1 · 2014-02-05 04:59 · Score: 1

HP has been notorious for doing things like you describe... just proves the GP's point, I think. :)
Re:HP used to be greatl by ColdWetDog · 2014-02-05 05:03 · Score: 1

Maybe they thought you had puppies or kids. My labs would have loved that 'present'.
You're just looking at it all wrong. The family friendly Aligent....

--
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Re:HP used to be greatl by sjames · 2014-02-05 08:25 · Score: 1

It *IS* a rip-off. In a healthy market they'd be forced to either lower the price on the base model and not ship with extra disabled memory OR they would have to ship with the extra memory enabled.
The fact that their margins are high enough that they can just throw extra stuff in just in case you want to pay for it one day is a symptom of a real problem.
The fact that they ship those little slips of paper in so much packaging trying to make you feel like you actually bought something real shows that they know it at some level.
Re:HP used to be greatl by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:52 · Score: 0

Yea! At least in the old days of mainframe upgrades, the software patch (to take out the odd cycle NOP) and speed up the box by 2X was accompanied by the pulling of a processor card and replacement by an identical card. I agree about the shipping nonsense though.
Re:HP used to be greatl by drsmithy · 2014-02-05 10:41 · Score: 1

For the life of me I do not understand this 'commercial strategy'.
?
Charging the customer what they are prepared to pay for a product, rather than what it costs to make, is a pretty core tenet of free market capitalism.
Re:HP used to be greatl by toddestan · 2014-02-06 15:21 · Score: 1

The thing is the ram is probably very cheap. Yet, you can get some people to pay a lot more for more ram. So if you put all the memory in the "base" model, they can't soak the people willing to pay more for the extra memory because they'll just buy the cheap model like everyone else. From the engineering side, the extra memory is cheap and it's just cheaper easier to build one part with everything and disable bits in software, rather than design different parts for the different models. So you end up with this kind of nonsense.
Of course, it only really works well with high-margin, low volume products like oscilloscopes or high-end servers. For high volume, low margin products where an extra buck or two in ram chips in each unit can make or break you, you're not going to see this kind of stuff.
Re:HP used to be greatl by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-15 10:11 · Score: 0

Ah! The Matryoshka Memory Upgrade!

HP fucking people as always... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:29 · Score: 0

I wish HP stops manufacturing everything...
They sell crappy stuff..

"HP has made significant investments in its intellectual capital to provide the best value and experience for our customers"... my ass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhokVE8Pw84

This is it by Trogre · 2014-02-04 19:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

Ladies and gentleman, this is it.

This is the end of Hewlett Packard.

--
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife

Re:This is it by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:41 · Score: 0

Pretty much - We abandoned them about 12 months ago for IBM and Dell.
IBM blade chassis system are good, support is good. Dell is cheaper and less quality, but their support is far better.
Re:This is it by Guppy06 · 2014-02-05 03:26 · Score: 1

Thank God.
Re:This is it by hambone142 · 2014-02-05 09:20 · Score: 1

Hewlett-Packard ended when Carly Fiorina took over the company and displaced HP management with Compaq management. Divide and conquer (and it worked). She even renamed it to "HP" instead of its founder's names. Since then, the remains of what used to be a great company has had a constant flow of cost-cutting CEOs (the present one included) that have hacked away at HP's R&D expenditures and have alienated the remaining employees who really cared. Most of which have moved on to better lives. I call it "the continuing estate sale of Hewlett-Packard Company".

Service packs? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:33 · Score: 4, Insightful

Aren't service packs and firmware updates fixes to defective computers/software? Why are they trying to charge for fixing something that is not supposed to be broken in the first place?

Re:Service packs? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

And they get a perverse incentive to deliberately deliver broken products from the outset.
Re:Service packs? by StripedCow · 2014-02-04 23:33 · Score: 1

Mod parent up!

--
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
Re:Service packs? by will_die · 2014-02-05 00:21 · Score: 1

On the rare occurances that I update our server BIOS/firmware it is to add new capabilities in the form of recognition of new types of hardware devices or new software.
Re:Service packs? by drsmithy · 2014-02-05 01:04 · Score: 2

And they get a perverse incentive to deliberately deliver broken products from the outset.
No they don't.
All customers will have support contracts for a hardware purchase for 12 months.
The vast majority will then have them for another 2 years.
A sizeable chunk for probably another year or two after that.
Nearly all bugs are going to be found in the first couple of years, probably in the first 6 months, when pretty much everyone will have support contracts. Ie: they'll need to be fixed.
Re:Service packs? by drummerboybac · 2014-02-05 03:48 · Score: 1

Aren't service packs and firmware updates fixes to defective computers/software?
Not necessarily, they are also to add support for new peripherals that didnt exist when something was released.
Re:Service packs? by Areyoukiddingme · 2014-02-05 05:43 · Score: 2

And they get a perverse incentive to deliberately deliver broken products from the outset.
No they don't.
Yes they do.

The vast majority will then have them for another 2 years.
Which they paid extra for. Incentive.

A sizeable chunk for probably another year or two after that.
Which they again paid extra for. Yet more incentive. And still perverse.
Re:Service packs? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:37 · Score: 0

Not really. Most of the really nasty security stuff is only found after some smart ass exploits the vulnerability. Regardless of that, for what they charge for a server they ought to be bound to fix stuff that shouldn't have been broke in the first place. In fact, I think we as customers ought to be charging them when they don't deliver a system that functions flawlessly as advertised. I mean after all that is what we're paying for.
Re:Service packs? by sjames · 2014-02-05 08:27 · Score: 1

If that was the case TFA wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have announced a policy because there wouldn't be anything to download anyway.
Re:Service packs? by drsmithy · 2014-02-05 08:50 · Score: 1

Yes they do.
Where ?
Where is the incentive to "deliver broken products" when they're going to have to fix them anyway since the vast majority of customers will be in support contracts for at least 3 years ? And would have been even if this change never occurred ?
Most customers will pay for 3 years of support - just like they have the last upteen years - because of the other stuff it buys.
Re:Service packs? by drsmithy · 2014-02-05 08:52 · Score: 1

Rest assured most customers get at least 3 year of support. Not because of anything to do with firmware updates, but to deal with hardware failures.
Re:Service packs? by sjames · 2014-02-05 09:14 · Score: 1

And yet there are apparently bugs still being found, otherwise there's be nothing to download for a 3 year old server and no need to have a policy.
Re:Service packs? by drsmithy · 2014-02-05 11:07 · Score: 1

And yet there are apparently bugs still being found, otherwise there's be nothing to download for a 3 year old server [...]
Of course there would.
Just because a bug was fixed in a firmware update 3 years ago doesn't mean that update was applied 3 years ago.

Not their first bad call by atari2600a · 2014-02-04 19:36 · Score: 1

Remember when one of their pilot-ey guys in engineering wasn't put on their new microcomputer division?

Devils Advocate by SuperKendall · 2014-02-04 19:38 · Score: 1

If a manufacturer ships hardware with exploitable defects and takes more than three years to identify them, should the consumer have to pay for the vendor to fix the these defects?"

If it took longer than the warranty period (remember, you still get free access as long as the warranty is valid) - why not?

Look at this the other way. Lets say you sell something you warrant to work for three years. Some four years later, there's some kind of security flaw - why should the company not need some extra funds to develop a fix? To my mind this change is something that will lead to better support for older products, because you can keep on paying and demanding fixes for your payments...

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Devils Advocate by antifoidulus · 2014-02-04 19:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

Look at this the other way. Lets say you sell something you warrant to work for three years. Some four years later, there's some kind of security flaw - why should the company not need some extra funds to develop a fix? To my mind this change is something that will lead to better support for older products, because you can keep on paying and demanding fixes for your payments...

Car analogy! Have you ever heard of a safety recall? You will note that it isn't only new vehicles, or vehicles still under warranty that get recalled. It's ALL the defective vehicles, and the manufacturer has to pay for the repairs. Why you may ask? Because they designed something that is faulty and thus poses a risk not only to the people who bought the car, but to everyone else on the road. Why should software security be any different? If you get compromised, it doesn't just affect you, it can potentially affect a lot of other people.

Now of course for bugs that aren't security related you maybe have a point, if the back seat cupholder tends to break in a car the manufacturer may not be held reliable to fix it, as it doesn't pose a safety risk, but of course not fixing it is sort of a dick move....

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Monstar L
Re:Devils Advocate by CTU · 2014-02-04 19:48 · Score: 1

It is aad that most likely there are newer still under warranty systems that could/would have this trouble ye they can get more money for it :(
Re:Devils Advocate by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 20:20 · Score: 1

Devil's advocate's devil's advocate: under this model, isn't it in the manufacturer's interest to delay fixes until after the warranty expires?
Sortof the opposite of "Why buy a cow when you can get the milk for free?" --> "Why give away the milk for free when you can wait a few months and charge them extra for organic, ultra-pasteurized milk instead?" The customer can either buy a new cow or pay for a milk contract. Either way, you make money.
Re:Devils Advocate by SuperKendall · 2014-02-04 20:25 · Score: 1

under this model, isn't it in the manufacturer's interest to delay fixes until after the warranty expires?
No, because they still want customers, and no patches quickly equals no customers.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:Devils Advocate by SuperKendall · 2014-02-04 20:28 · Score: 1

That's a pretty good analogy (as car analogies so often are for some reason), but I can see where HP could still provide real security fixes for free while providing patches simply to work with newer hardware, could fall under the blanket agreement.
The real question in my mind is, if you buy support just to download a patch and then cancel again, are you obligated to uninstall the patch, and will they provide the patch reverter to do so. :-)

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:Devils Advocate by Stolpskott · 2014-02-04 21:06 · Score: 1

Lets say you sell something you warrant to work for three years. Some four years later, there's some kind of security flaw - why should the company not need some extra funds to develop a fix? To my mind this change is something that will lead to better support for older products, because you can keep on paying and demanding fixes for your payments...
Let's say that I buy a brand new HP product, and then inside of 1 month I notice a bug in the firmware. It doesn't stop the system working, because that server is not hosting anything on its secondary RAID array other than a set of backup disks that I can put on a different controller (i.e. it causes a problem, but I have an easy and 100% effective workaround). However, I report the bug to HP. On that server, I download all available firmware updates and apply them as they are released.
3 years later, that system is out of warranty but I now need to start using that secondary disk array, and HP has now released a firmware patch to fix the bug that I reported when first using the system.
In this case, the "different controller" happened to be a RAID card that had been purchased for a different project which was on-off-on-off- and then finally back on, so we had to purchase another RAID card, which was a smaller expense than swapping out the entire HP server for one with different firmware (the other option we had).
At the time we had this issue, we could just download the patch from HP for our now out-of-warranty system. Under this new policy, we could not have done so.
If companies fix their firmware issues in a timely fashion, my problem does not arise. As it is, I can see a huge demand on Torrent sites for HP firmware updates coming up, or contract network professionals trying to build up firmware libraries through companies that do maintain their HP service agreements.
Re:Devils Advocate by SuricouRaven · 2014-02-04 21:50 · Score: 1, Insightful

Except that due to the extreme complexity of computer products, it's practically impossible to make anything non-trivial that isn't initially riddled with defects.
Re:Devils Advocate by FlyHelicopters · 2014-02-04 21:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yes, but cars are heavily regulated, computers are not... In addition, there is a time limit beyond which they no longer do recalls and the manufactures no longer have to pay for them.
After all, when is the last time you heard of a recall of a 1978 Chevy? There is a sunset period beyond which no one cares anymore. With the speed of computer development, that period is much shorter than cars.
Re:Devils Advocate by FlyHelicopters · 2014-02-04 22:01 · Score: 2

While that all sounds nice, you're leaving off an option. What if, without the payments, HP simply does not fix anything for any hardware that is out of warranty?
If they say "we'll keep fixing and updating for 3 years, then forget it, on to the new stuff", then what?
Just consider that, before you throw out the baby with the bath water. Why exactly do they have to provide updates forever?
Frankly, Microsoft has done everyone a huge disservice by supporting XP for so long, people have gotten this idea that computers should be updated forever.
Re:Devils Advocate by Lonewolf666 · 2014-02-04 23:59 · Score: 1

And don't forget product liability.
If there is a known, safety-relevant flaw in a car, and the manufacturer does NOT do a safety recall, future accidents caused by that flaw might lead to lawsuits of the nasty kind. Since negligence is now easily demonstrated, the courts might grant the victims punitive damages. Ouch.

--
C - the footgun of programming languages
Re:Devils Advocate by NormalVisual · 2014-02-05 00:25 · Score: 1

In this scenario, I suppose you could invoice HP for a "consulting fee" for finding and reporting the bug to them. Troubleshooting an issue caused by broken firmware costs time too, y'know...

--
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Re:Devils Advocate by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 01:17 · Score: 2

Yes, but cars are heavily regulated, computers are not... In addition, there is a time limit beyond which they no longer do recalls and the manufactures no longer have to pay for them.
After all, when is the last time you heard of a recall of a 1978 Chevy? There is a sunset period beyond which no one cares anymore.
That sunset period is ten years.

With the speed of computer development, that period is much shorter than cars.
The sunset period reflects the period in which the product may be in use, not the period in which the product is state of the art. Many servers are regularly in place for ten years. The average age of [a] personal computer was 4.5 years in 2006. The average age of a car in the US is now 11.4 years and the lifespan of an OTR truck is 4-5 years. It seems reasonable to have a 10 years sunset lifespan on computers to me, especially given that their useful lifespans are increasing, not decreasing. The rate at which processor, memory, and storage speed is increasing has slowed, so we're using our PCs longer — their lifespans are increasing. The support period should thus increase.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Devils Advocate by BVis · 2014-02-05 01:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

No, because they still want customers, and no patches quickly equals no customers.
Bad assumption. The people making purchasing decisions (especially at large organizations) do not base their decisions on unimportant things like "quality" or "technical factors", they very frequently make those decisions based on 1) initial cost and 2) who they play golf with. I've seen this in action, where the people who actually know things are standing on their heads trying to get management to understand why buying $x is a bad idea for valid technical reasons, and some retard MBA makes the wrong decision because a sales rep bought them dinner at a conference once.

--
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Re:Devils Advocate by nabsltd · 2014-02-05 02:53 · Score: 1

I can see where HP could still provide real security fixes for free while providing patches simply to work with newer hardware, could fall under the blanket agreement.
That's really hard to do with firmware. You'd have to have multiple branches to satisfy the variety of customers. For example, if I stopped paying for support after getting the firmware update that allowed me to use 8-core CPUs, then all future "bug fix" firmware I download still need to have this feature, but not the 12-core CPU feature, which was released later.
You can see how this could grow untenable very quickly, with all the different combinations of new hardware supported.
Re:Devils Advocate by nabsltd · 2014-02-05 03:02 · Score: 1

Frankly, Microsoft has done everyone a huge disservice by supporting XP for so long, people have gotten this idea that computers should be updated forever.
Frankly, Linus has done everyone a huge disservice by supporting the Linux kernel for so long...people have gotten this idea that computers should be updated forever.
I can replace "Microsoft" and "XP" in your post with any number of computer manufacturers/developers and hardware/software that release patches for an extended period of time for free. Why did you pick Microsoft to "blame"?
Re:Devils Advocate by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 04:37 · Score: 0

And cars are different how?
Re:Devils Advocate by FlyHelicopters · 2014-02-05 07:55 · Score: 1

The requirement to support a car for 10 years is enshrined in law. Are you suggesting you'd do the same for computers? If so, fair enough, but keep in mind that it will raise the price a bit for all electronics, someone has to pay the cost of it and that is always the end customer.
It is also worth considering that something called the NTSB exists for cars, no such agency exists for computers, so it is one thing to say "you must support your computers for 10 years", it is another to actually make HP put out patches for 10 years. Maybe they say, "yea, we found and fixed all the problems, anything left is minor".
Re:Devils Advocate by FlyHelicopters · 2014-02-05 07:57 · Score: 1

Simple, Microsoft is by far the largest and most well known target. XP is by far the most used example of an old OS. 10 years from now, XP likely will still have more users than Linux does today.
And frankly, does Linux really support the old kernals for so long? Is what was released in 2001 still getting active support and monthly patches?
Re:Devils Advocate by sjames · 2014-02-05 08:29 · Score: 1

They have to fix it anyway for their more recent customers.
Re:Devils Advocate by sjames · 2014-02-05 08:50 · Score: 1

Sure, that's why we can cut them a bit of slack rather than just demanding a refund. Until they implemented this policy.
Re:Devils Advocate by sjames · 2014-02-05 08:58 · Score: 1

Effectively that would mean they would stop 3 years after the last sale (AKA EOL). Most vendors cease producing updates at EOL anyway.
Re:Devils Advocate by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 12:47 · Score: 1

The requirement to support a car for 10 years is enshrined in law. Are you suggesting you'd do the same for computers? If so, fair enough, but keep in mind that it will raise the price a bit for all electronics, someone has to pay the cost of it and that is always the end customer.

Actually, what I suggest is that if a patch has been developed and tested and delivered to one customer, that it should be made available to everyone who has the hardware. No more than that. I'm not advocating forcing bug fixes, only forcing permitting distribution of bug fixes which have actually been developed.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Devils Advocate by FlyHelicopters · 2014-02-05 13:23 · Score: 1

Fair enough... Just make sure that you're ok if they decide not to make the patches at all if they are unable to charge for them beyond a given point.
Do you want paid patches at 5 years, or no patches at all? Assuming those are your only two options of course...

Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by Taco+Cowboy · 2014-02-04 19:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

... but in this case I won't fault anyone if they have to download the essential patches from pirate sites.

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !

Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 20:19 · Score: 0

Care for a trojan with your side of fries?
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:09 · Score: 1

Care for a trojan with your unpatched hardware/software?
Lesser or two evils.
Re: Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 22:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

Absoloutely not! Thats why i always use trustworthy sites like TPB rather than the manufacturers site as they love to ppackage all sorts of crap with their downloads. ;)
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by nightsky30 · 2014-02-05 00:30 · Score: 1

Care for a trojan with your unpatched hardware/software?
Lesser or two evils.
Definitely two evils here, HP and the unsympathetic, trojan lacing, pirate hackers. Though I can see how you might think they are one in the same.
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by ratbag · 2014-02-05 01:43 · Score: 1

But no sensible sysadmin would go to a pirate site to get firmware updates, so I really would fault someone doing that. If there's no reliable source of checksums available without a contract, how on earth would we ever trust the pirated updates?
Re: Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by ReallyEvilCanine · 2014-02-05 02:28 · Score: 4, Funny

I see SOMEbody wasn't paying attention to a Java update and got a dose of the Ask foolbar.
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by lister+king+of+smeg · 2014-02-05 02:42 · Score: 1

Why not as long as the chechsums match?

--
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by ratbag · 2014-02-05 02:49 · Score: 2

Why not as long as the chechsums match?
As I said, if there's no trustworthy source of checksums, ie if HP don't make the checksums available to non-payers, to what am I going to match the suspect, pirated files?
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by lister+king+of+smeg · 2014-02-05 03:17 · Score: 1

sorry I missed that bit

--
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by ILongForDarkness · 2014-02-05 04:29 · Score: 1

These are enterprise customers meaning it isn't just a virus you are putting on a random home computer. This would be unpatched or potentially pirated versions with exploits added being not/put on servers. Bad idea. Things that don't cost a lot (like hosting a patch website) should be free because if it isn't stories will abound of cheap companies cutting back on support contracts and then the horrible quality of HP servers vs paying the $0.01 a year it costs you for them to download the patches and have them not be able to complain about the problems you fixed in a timely manner.
If hardware breaks or software versions need updating then they should be encouraged to pay ad hoc or get a service agreement. Bug fixes that just require a download and an install: free. They are the cost of not getting it right the first time.
Re: Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by iamhassi · 2014-02-05 06:29 · Score: 2

But..... isn't this extortion? "Oh the thing we sold you has exploits? We can fix that right up.... for more money HAHAHA!!" That would be like buying a new car and finding out the air bags don't work and I have to pay manufacture to fix it, doesn't seem right.

--
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Re:Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 07:20 · Score: 0

Actually, this is exactly what I did to my Cisco Media Server (for CUCM). For one of the hardware platforms, if the hard disks' firmware is not updated, you may run into issues where it drops off the system completely. The entire phone system dies completely (even though we have a c2921 router as a backup, it does not kick in), requiring a cold reboot.
We have a service contract with them from end of 2010 to 2011. We did not run into this issue until late 2011/early 2012. The fix was already released even before we deployed the system. So, the way I see it, I should have full entitlement to the fix, but nooo... Of course, we could have gone back to the company that deployed the system and slapped them hard for not fixing it in the first place, but what I ended up doing was going to TBP / IH and downloaded a copy, verified that the MD5 is at least correct (yes, apparently you can get the MD5 and file name directly from Cisco Download, but no the actual file itself), and installed it. It is now happily churning without any further issues.
To me, it would have been a better PR for Cisco to allow their customers to download fixes up to the end of the contract/warranty period. Without the help of people throwing these fixes onto pirate sites, all this does is give the impression that Cisco products are crap (even though, in this case, it was the HD manufacturer's fault), and they want more money to fix their mistakes.
Re: Normally I do not encourage piracy ... by rhalstead · 2014-02-16 06:35 · Score: 1

God, how I hate these Legit sites pushing spam. At first they just sent you their updates, then it was loaded with stuff, but you could opt our. Now the opt out is grayed out. Another trick is putting the download button in an obscure spot with the prominent download buttons for "other stuff". I've found many that send me to CNET which has most of the opt outs, grayed out. I've had to spend hours getting Yahoo and its hooks cleaned off my wife's computer. The Ask toolbar is annoying, but Yahoo takes over your browsers (every one that's installed), home page0(set the protection to prevent the change in "options"), searches and is a royal PITA to get rid of. I doubt the average computer user could do it An uninstall leaves many directories full of files behind.. In several instances I had to install a clean download of the browser after uninstalling the original(s) and cleaning the files off the computer, I mean wiping, not just deleting I told my wife "from now on, when a prompter wants to up date something, write the name down, tell it no, and have me go through the updates later." That's a lot easier than cleaning bucket loads of shit off the computer later. Yahoo should be listed as a major spammer as should these other programs that are organized to trick the user into downloading and installing useless memory hogs they didn't want. Much of this stuff is more than older computers can handle.

Thank goodness.... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:41 · Score: 0

They have needed to go out of business for a long time. Yuck. and those 300 mb driver packs...wtf.

Re:Thank goodness.... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:00 · Score: 0

Lucky you, I once installed a more than gigabyte of "driver" for my brothers HP printer/scanner. There was absolutely no way to select what bloatware to install with the driver, just a next-next-ok-wait-for-an-hour -installer. I have never even looked at HP's printers on store after that occasion.
Re: Thank goodness.... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:58 · Score: 0

Those are not really "driver packs" , they're the full software solution for whatever product you purchased. Someone a long time ago who had no idea what they were doing named them incorrectly. And it is true that you used to not be able to deselect the bloatware, but recent products it's changed and even a lot of the bloatware has been removed (for SOME products, not all). There's definitely some bad experiences in the past and the software isn't the greatest, but it's not as bad as it used to be and it's generally better than the competition, which are at the level of HP 7 years ago with bloatware and software quality.

Thanks for posting this! by Nick_Lowe712 · 2014-02-04 19:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

Wow! What a great reason to avoid buying new server hardware from HP! It is a massive disincentive to purchase. I cannot help but think this is supremely short sighted and a decision made by somebody up high who is not technically inclined.

Re:Thanks for posting this! by tibit · 2014-02-04 20:11 · Score: 1

I now really revel in having the foresight to use HP for networking gear, and Dell for servers. This division of labor has kept me happy for 15+ years.

--
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.

HP already does this for consumer level customers by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

Its happened twice this year that I've tried to find drivers on the HP website for notebooks aged 3-5 years, and found they're not on the HP website. After phoning HP I'm told that warranty isn't valid and for this kind of support I must pay an hourly fee. Only after threats of a lawsuit and an hour of my time occupied, the rep has been able to e-mail the drivers to me, instead of actually listing them on their website for the other owners of the same models.

So HP is trying to be Oracle? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:45 · Score: 0

I know Oracle, and HP is no Oracle.

Stick to your shitty underpriced printers and your overpriced unicorn blood that's being used as ink, HP.

At least they're being more honest about it now by laing · 2014-02-04 19:48 · Score: 1

HP is not the same company it was before the Compaq merger, but I see this as an improvement over some of their recent past underhanded tactics. One example that comes to mind is the time that I had to pay >$1k for a "refurbished" tape drive (rather than forking out over twice that for a new one) after a firmware "upgrade" caused the drive to self destruct by adding a useless and stressing servo limit test at power up.
HP isn't the best at anything anymore, but they certainly still rake in the profits (largely from ink jet refill cartridges).
Save yourself some money and a future headache by buying a Xerox printer, a Fujitsu scanner, or a Dell computer.

Re:At least they're being more honest about it now by datapharmer · 2014-02-05 02:03 · Score: 1

Clearly your experience with xerox is different than mine (I've found them nothing but unreliable garbage and their "technicians" are not very well trained to say the least), but then again I had to threaten Dell with legal action to get them to replace motherboards that had known bad nvidia chips that were dying (they kept trying to blame an operating system issue until it eventually escalated to someone in Round Rock), so it might simply be a matter of who is acting shitty at the moment. I concur that HP has their own problems though. We applied the latest SPP to a gen 8 server at the end of last year which promptly made the raid arrays impossible to configure and the workaround from their techs didn't work. We were eventually able to downgrade the firmware but that reintroduced several other bugs the firmware upgrade was intended to fix. Hopefully HP will get it all straightened out before I have to pay for the patches, but only time will tell! Yay for shortsighted profits!

--
Get a web developer
Re:At least they're being more honest about it now by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:55 · Score: 0

HP isn't the best at anything anymore, but they certainly still rake in the profits (largely from ink jet refill cartridges).
Their software division is actually doing pretty well lately.
Re:At least they're being more honest about it now by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-07 05:35 · Score: 0

No! Don't believe his lies. Xerox is terrible. The hardware *is* unreliable garbage, the "technicians" usually manage to make things worse than before they arrived, and their staff often combative. However, I believe that they save their top "engineers" for the driver development team. Such massive failure simply can not occur by accident. Oh, it is making me furious just thinking about it. I sincerely *hate* them...
I'm convinced of two things:
1. The final negotiations between management and Xerox which locked us into this unholy deal must have taken place on an all expenses paid, booze, coke and hooker soaked trip to some glorious beach.
2. Xerox is in fact a front for an attack on our economy and moral by some unknown enemy actor. China - Could be. North Korea - Maybe. Canada - who would suspect? Regardless, Xerox is definitely a covert weapon in an unpublicized war.

C'est la vie by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:51 · Score: 0

"If a manufacturer ships hardware with exploitable defects and takes more than three years to identify them, should the consumer have to pay for the vendor to fix the these defects?"

The answer is, if the company charges for such, then the consumer should have to pay for such. Of course the consumer could flip off the vendor and buy somewhere else too. I mean, it's just an idea. That everyone has now.

Warranty? What warranty? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:54 · Score: 0

Have a nice little brick here. Supposed to be a procurve switch, but no power, and hp refuses to honour any and all support requests. They're supposed to have lifetime warranty, but evidently not. Not so surprising the support for the rest is going to pot too.

Re:HP already does this for consumer level custome by oobayly · 2014-02-04 19:55 · Score: 2

That's interesting, my experience was the exact opposite. I was recycling my HP desktop for a colleague to use and realised that I hadn't created recovery media after sticking Linux on it. I called HP expecting to be charged for the media (it was 18 months out if warranty) and the bloke just sent it out free of charge. It turns out I now have two copies - I found the original media when clearing out a cupboard a month later.

Maybe the difference was consumer grade laptop vs business grade desktop, even if it that were the case, there'll probably be no difference between the two now.

A rebranding opportunity! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 19:58 · Score: 0

This is so ridiculously unacceptable...

Sounds like HP is rebranding itself as not giving a shit about the long-term well being of its customers or their data, or their business.

if HP doesn't stand for its customers, what does "H.P." stand for now?

Re:A rebranding opportunity! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:10 · Score: 0

Haista Paska

What? by edibobb · 2014-02-04 19:58 · Score: 4, Funny

Did HP hire Ballmer?

Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 20:55 · Score: 0

No, I guess they hired Bieber!
Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:09 · Score: 0

Worse, they hired Whitman.
Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 11:06 · Score: 0

Did HP hire Ballmer?
Bahahahahaha!
If not - I bet it's one of his friends!!
Both HP and MS are destined to crash and burn - If you see them burning - p!$$ on them and then put them out with an axe!
Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 11:19 · Score: 0

Did HP hire Ballmer?
Bahahahahaha!
If not - I bet it's one of his friends!!
Both HP and MS are destined to crash and burn - If you see them burning - p!$$ on them and then put them out with an axe!
BTW - I "was" a HP (proliant and Probook) and MS (SBS 2011) provider - Looks like it's now Dell and Zentyal!

HP can't sell enough servers... by angrygretchen · 2014-02-04 20:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

We are a small shop and we are running 3 VMs on a single HP Proliant G7 Server. It has enough memory and resources that it could probably run an additional 7 VMs if we wanted to. HP is having to face the reality that the people are buying less hardware because realistically the ratio of VMs to servers is high as 10:1. HP is trying to gouge customers on the warranty because they can't make it up in server sales. Our Proliant DL380 G7 hit the 3 year mark a few months ago and is now out of warranty. The additional cost of the most basic warranty (4 hours/day phone, no onsite) for a single Proliant server is approximately $3000 for three years. That is easily half the cost of the server. And that's the cheapest warranty option. Don't even ask about the 24/7 onsite warranty. This change effectively kills the secondary market for HP hardware. Denying access to firmware means that it will be next to impossible to install or update your OS. I've had to run the HP SPP firmware upate several times to address issues that would otherwise have rendered our Proliant server useless. In fact I have an unresolved issue with our server where it refuses to reboot to the OS, unless I boot from the HP SPP tool first. If I need a critical firmware update in the future, the only option may be the Piratebay. Ugh If HP doesn't reverse this decision, our next server will most likely be a Dell. Unless Dell decides to follow HP into the dark side as well.

Re:HP can't sell enough servers... by FlyHelicopters · 2014-02-04 22:06 · Score: 1

But you're also your own problem. HP wants (or needs) you to buy a new server every 3 years. You already say that you run 3 VMs, but that your existing hardware can handle 7 more.
Now you're saying you don't want to buy from HP again, but you don't need to, your existing hardware is enough and probably will be for another 3 years. You aren't actually an HP customer anymore, it has now been too long and you won't buy in the near future either.
HP has done the math and figured that customers like you aren't worth having, unless you're willing to pay up. I expect Dell to follow suit soon, now that they are private, they can do this if Michael wants to.
Re:HP can't sell enough servers... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 02:20 · Score: 0

We have 15 ESX clusters with HP DL380 G5 through G8.
All of them are running at least a 20:1 vm ratio and they are only limited by the amount of physical memory we have in them. The G5's being the most limited because the memory costs more then just buying a new server.
We just bought 4 new DL360 G8's last week, added an additional 4 port nic, 2 600GB drives, a dual port HBA, and 256 GB memory, they cost $40K total for all 4 with advanced iLo and 3 year service. We totally expect to easily support 40:1 with these but we will only be using about 20:1.
With SAN and fiber switches at another $75K for 60 raw TB, that is about $110K total in hardware for enough to run 120 VM's and still have a enough capacity if one of the physical ESX servers goes down.
We have about 30 similar setups around the world.
Re:HP can't sell enough servers... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-10 03:53 · Score: 0

Either HP support is a lot more expensive in the US or your supplier is ripping you off on the warranty, we were quoted $800 to $1000 (translated from GBP) for the same depending on model of server.

Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this. by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2014-02-04 20:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

Now it's just a bunch of MBAs trying to massage their stock price.

You got that right.

Algorithm:
- Get hired for a big salary and a LOT of stock options.
- Make the company appear more profitable by cutting off investments in the future to reduce costs now.
- Declare victory and what a great guy you are.
- Cash in the stock options and move on to a bigger company where you can repeat the process for even more money and reputation points. PROFIT!
- Your successor inherits the house of cards and takes the blame when it collapses a few years later.

The Harvard Business School has a reputation for graduates who use this algorithm.

Interestingly, boards of directors keep falling for this. (You'd think they'd look at what happens to companies candidates had "turned around" in the several years AFTER they left when evaluating CEO, COO, and CFO candidates. But apparently they usually don't.)

= = = =

Similarly, if a high company official starts enthusing about the book "Crossing the Chasm" and you're an early hire, cash any vested stock options and get out, before you and the other early hires are laid off. (Interestingly, they usually fire them too soon, when they're still key to the company's success, and the company usually falls INTO the chasm rather than crossing it.)

--
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way

Goodbuy HP! by miffo.swe · 2014-02-04 20:20 · Score: 1

I used to buy HP servers all the time but this move will not land them any deal whatsoever in the future. I rarely use their downloads except for an occasional d/l of a bios/firmware update, and 100% of the time because of some bug that made something not work.

I am annoyed as hell with their premium charging for disks, especially SSD disks that they markup really big. 600$ for an 100GB SSD SATA MLC disk?

Wringing money out of your customers at the same time as cloud computing is taking off is not a smart move. A desperate attempt at getting the last money out of your market before it collapses perhaps, but not smart.

--
HTTP/1.1 400

User by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 20:21 · Score: 0

By HP, the worst web page of all manufactures,

"that they would no longer be able to access or download service packs, firmware patches and bug-fixes for their server hardware without a valid support agreement in place"

So we by your servers , but this is not enough, u need more money..

"'HP has made significant investments in its intellectual capital to provide the best value and experience for our customers"

We are going to charge you for our mistakes

"We continue to offer a differentiated customer experience with our comprehensive support portfolio. ..."

Money, money, money........

Did you even read the notice? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 20:36 · Score: 0

The notice is about HP 9000 (read PA-RISC and HP-UX) and HP Integrity (read Itanium and HP-UX). HP 9000 was end-of-saled years ago and you know Itanium. The products are a dying remnant that some companies may be trying to stick to. Honestly, sometimes just people need to let go.

So if you're yelling loudly about your network or PC stuff not getting BIOS-upgrades, go back to fix your comments.
(What a coincidence, the captcha word is "extort")

Re:Did you even read the notice? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:22 · Score: 0

You should at least read the article before you post; this covers more than just HP-9000.
Re:Did you even read the notice? by Golden_Rider · 2014-02-04 21:58 · Score: 4, Informative

The notice is about HP 9000 (read PA-RISC and HP-UX) and HP Integrity (read Itanium and HP-UX). HP 9000 was end-of-saled years ago and you know Itanium. The products are a dying remnant that some companies may be trying to stick to. Honestly, sometimes just people need to let go.
So if you're yelling loudly about your network or PC stuff not getting BIOS-upgrades, go back to fix your comments.
(What a coincidence, the captcha word is "extort")
No, it's just that the link went to the email received by a customer who is using HP9000 stuff. The change DOES also apply to the usual stuff like HP Proliant DL380 etc. For example, the mail I received today (as a Proliant user) was:
"Update: HP ProLiant Servers: Access to Firmware Updates & Service Pack for ProLiant
You are receiving this communication because you have been identified as a customer using HP ProLiant Servers and HP Services.
HP has made significant investments in its intellectual capital to provide the best value and experience for our customers. We continue to offer a differentiated customer experience with our comprehensive support portfolio. HP, as an industry leader, is well positioned to provide reliable support services across the globe with proprietary tools, HP trained engineers, and genuine certified HP parts. Only HP customers and authorized channel partners may download and use support materials.
In line with this commitment, starting in February 2014, Hewlett-Packard Company will change the way firmware updates and Service Pack for ProLiant (SPP) on HP ProLiant server products are accessed. Select server firmware and SPP on these products will only be accessed through the HP Support Center http://customer.hp.com/r?2.1.3... to customers with an active support agreement, HP CarePack, or warranty linked to their HP Support Center User ID and for the specific products being updated. We encourage you to review your current support coverage to ensure you have the appropriate coverage to maintain uninterrupted access to firmware updates and SPP for these products. "
Re:Did you even read the notice? by adnonsense · 2014-02-04 22:15 · Score: 1

The change DOES also apply to the usual stuff like HP Proliant DL380 etc.
Yup, we got the same mail today. We have a bunch of ageing Proliants, and are currently engaged in a procurement round for a new generation of servers (we buy them by the ton, almost). Guess which company just ruled themselves out of the process?
Re:Did you even read the notice? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:28 · Score: 0

I got the same email, regarding our HP Proliant DL370 piece of garbage.
4 motherboard replacements, 2 raid controllers, and an entire machine later and I am still down 3 TB of SAS storage over the past year and a half.
I was forced into buying HP due to our CTO having a hardon for them at the time, who out right rejected my original purchase requests.
Now that they have to power-cycle their HP blade server once a month and get no support for the thing, he finally said I was correct in my original assessment, but then told me he was changing to Dell.
At this point I feel nothing but a lawsuit for fraud would get the point across to them, and even that would never fully restore the damage HP has done to us.
If it wasn't for the fact our own chief officers are also trying to destroy the company from the inside, it might be worth while to sue just out of spite (better than seeing our profits go to their pockets)
Re:Did you even read the notice? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:24 · Score: 0

I'm curious how often you had to update firmware on servers that were out of warranty?
Re:Did you even read the notice? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · 2014-02-05 01:46 · Score: 1

I was an HP-Certified HP-UX admin back in the late 90's, early 00's, running lots of HP-9000s (mostly PA-RISC, but a few early Itanics), all running HP-UX. **Operating system** (including security) patches were only available for machines under service contracts. Patch application/management, at least those not requiring a reboot, basically consumed one day out of each week. Having a patch I applied last week superceded by this week's batch was not at all unusual. As others have mentioned, recieving a big box full of little boxes each holding an individual piece of paper and/or CD, one per machine, was a regular occurance as well.
Re:Did you even read the notice? by Guido+von+Guido+II · 2014-02-05 01:52 · Score: 1

I'm curious how often you had to update firmware on servers that were out of warranty?
I'm going to have to see how this plays out, but it could be a pain in the ass for somebody like me who has to install firmware on *new* servers for customers. *I* don't have a support contract even if the customer does. (Which doesn't mean that there won't be some way around it.)

I knew there was a good reason.... by Bomarc · 2014-02-04 20:47 · Score: 2

Last year -- I downloaded all the Compaq (now HP) SP's from their FTP site -- don't quite know what to do with them. I downloaded all of the SP's in case HP stopped supporting 'older' Compaq's (There are several of the old systems that I like for nostalgia)

Now for the big problem: HP or Dell. Dell is firing 15,000 of it's employees --- and HP's new support policy sucks (REALLY sucks).

My question is .. is this policy going to follow through with other HP equipment? I've got a HP color laser jet printer: Will I experience the same issue with that? I've got three HP scanners -- will I need to put them in the garbage? (No one will want them if they can't get even basic driver support).

I do know this much: If I need to "throw away" otherwise perfectly good equipment as HP will not provide basic user accessible support for it -- I will not replace the equipment from the same manufacturer with the same BAD policy. I have three 'old' Proliant (580, 585 & 360) servers in use now. If (when) they fail -- the equipment will not be replaced with modern equipment from HP (assuming this policy remains in place).

Re:I knew there was a good reason.... by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 01:03 · Score: 2

Now for the big problem: HP or Dell. Dell is firing 15,000 of it's employees --- and HP's new support policy sucks (REALLY sucks).

Why not Lenovo? It's not like you can actually trust the PCs you get delivered from HP or Dell not to carry malware. In the bargain you might get some PCs that actually work.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:I knew there was a good reason.... by Guido+von+Guido+II · 2014-02-05 01:55 · Score: 1

My question is .. is this policy going to follow through with other HP equipment? I've got a HP color laser jet printer: Will I experience the same issue with that? I've got three HP scanners -- will I need to put them in the garbage? (No one will want them if they can't get even basic driver support).
Yeah, I'm concerned about this as well. Weren't free software updates one of the selling points of HP's Procurve line of network gear?
On the bright side, I gave up on HP printers after my last one died a couple years ago.
Re:I knew there was a good reason.... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:45 · Score: 0

Yeah, and you can't trust PCs from Lenovo to not contain hardware backdoors (google it)
Re:I knew there was a good reason.... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 07:30 · Score: 0

I will never forget the time my HP ink jet printer refused to print, sometime after 2005. Multi-function, model started with an "L." After my family moved from one location to another, the unit continually gave an error that the ink tank access door was open, even when it was clearly not. I stripped the printer down, exposing the nearly inaccessible door sensor, and saw that there was a pendulum inside the housing that could swing into place if the printer was ever turned nearly upside down, and once that happened, it caused the switch to always sense that the door was open even when it was closed. Had I known about that pendulum, I could have just flipped the printer back over and then righted it again, repeating until the pendulum went back into its original position (I estimate I could have done it without being able to see it within 2 tries). Since I had the thing apart, I just removed the pendulum. Its only possible purpose was to prevent the printer from functioning. It was simply a small stick-shaped piece of plastic on a hinge that could either cause a false reading from the ink door sensor or not. I have never seen a more blatant yet at the same time nefarious case of planned obsolescence in my life.
This was a nice printer, with separate ink tanks from the print head. Oh, I guess it was a nice unit as long as you didn't depend on the wireless feature for more than a few months at a time. I eventually used it exclusively with a USB cable, instead of getting the wireless printing and scanning features to work again and again (they always stopped working after a few weeks or months).
Re:I knew there was a good reason.... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-10 04:32 · Score: 0

Have you considered Fujitsu? I don't see much about them online but their reliability is supposed to be excellent. What little I can see of their support suggests it's the same mixed bag as everyone else, depends on your local agent. They also offer SPARC if you have a terrible urge for Solaris without x86.

I can image the meetings... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 20:48 · Score: 1

Dev: Well, we've found a rather nasty exploit in Product X.
Sales: Great! We've got 50 mil in support contracts ending in two weeks. Sit on it until then.
Dev: ...

Re:I can image the meetings... by Chrisq · 2014-02-04 21:24 · Score: 1

Dev: Well, we've found a rather nasty exploit in Product X. Sales: Great! We've got 50 mil in support contracts ending in two weeks. Sit on it until then. Dev: ...
And get the developers to put another obscure hole in that we can release to the wild in 12 months time...
Re:I can image the meetings... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 22:16 · Score: 0

Dev: Well, we've found a rather nasty exploit in Product X.
Sales: Great! We've got 50 mil in support contracts ending in two weeks. Sit on it until then.
Dev: ...
And get the developers to put another obscure hole in that we can release to the wild in 12 months time...
Please. We're talking about firmware here. It's pretty well tied to a clock. They don't have to release jack shit. All they have to do is code the time-released bug in the firmware before it even leaves the factory. Wow, your RAID controller failed suddenly 3 months out of warranty? Imagine that...
Re:I can image the meetings... by Spamalope · 2014-02-05 07:09 · Score: 1

Please. We're talking about firmware here. It's pretty well tied to a clock. They don't have to release jack shit. All they have to do is code the time-released bug in the firmware before it even leaves the factory. Wow, your RAID controller failed suddenly 3 months out of warranty? Imagine that...
Nope, my HP server used a different trick. The raid array reports a discharged ram battery after a certain date, forcing the array to stop write back caching. Swapping array controllers and batteries showed that the motherboard firmware not the raid controller is the source of the problem.

Couldn't resist by Chrisq · 2014-02-04 21:28 · Score: 4, Funny

Now for the big problem: HP or Dell.

There's always Oracle hardware.... OK this is self-confessed flamebate!

Re:Couldn't resist by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:51 · Score: 0

IBM was left out - as they are selling out.
Re:Couldn't resist by jabuzz · 2014-02-04 22:21 · Score: 1

Oracle started requiring a valid support contract to download these sorts of things years ago. A lot of people stopped purchasing Oracle/Sun hardware specifically because of this.
The view held by most system admins, and historically the way it has been is that firmware updates for your servers are free of charge. Actual hardware issues (failed disks, PSU's etc.) will require a support contract to be in place or you are on your own.
While I am sure that this will maximize HP's profits in the short term long term a large number of people will jump ship to a different vendor who is not pulling this stunt and profits will be down.

Bad Summary: Read the Article! Only HP Integrity a by LordFolken · 2014-02-04 21:30 · Score: 0

I doubt this affects many people. Or do you seriously still use Itanium in 2014?

In which countries? by ukoda · 2014-02-04 21:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

I suspect they will only try this in some countries. They would be in breach of consumer laws in countries like New Zealand to charge to fix defects.

Regardless, other have said, it will weight in favour of other suppliers for new purchases.

Re:In which countries? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 22:17 · Score: 0

No consumer involved. This is corporate / enterprise level.
Re:In which countries? by cdrudge · 2014-02-05 00:37 · Score: 1

Bug fixes aren't defects, they are new product enhancements. Yeah, that's it.
Re:In which countries? by bwcbwc · 2014-02-05 01:03 · Score: 1

Except this seems to be a silicon valley bandwagon: IBM, Cisco and Sun/Oracle have similar paywalls for their HW/firmware patches.
Software patches still seem to be wide open in most cases.

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We are the 198 proof..
Re:In which countries? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:59 · Score: 0

Bug fixes aren't defects, they are new product enhancements.
As the GP said: in some countries.

message: don't buy HP by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:47 · Score: 0

I think they have delusions of having their customers by the short and curlies they way Oracle does or Sun did. There are only so many HP-UX customers left to squeeze, anyone else will just replace the old servers with something from an all too willing competitor.

Re:Bad Summary: Read the Article! Only HP Integrit by Bomarc · 2014-02-04 21:48 · Score: 1

The announcement affects all Proliant equipment.

From a search on equipment that I own:
Important note: HP ProLiant Server firmware access
Starting February 2014, an active warranty or contract is required to access HP ProLiant Server firmware updates. View your existing contracts & warranties or get help linking contracts or warranties to your HP Support Center user profile. To obtain additional support coverage, please contact your local HP office, HP representative, or visit Contact HP. Click here for more information.

Re:Bad Summary: Read the Article! Only HP Integrit by tomofumi · 2014-02-04 21:54 · Score: 1

someone should edit the top post... "...beginning September 2013, Hewlett-Packard Company will change the way firmware updates on HP Integrity and HP 9000 products are accessed..."

Did Larry buy HP when I wasnt looking? by 1MC · 2014-02-04 21:57 · Score: 1

Sun hardware has this - nasty. HP going for the lock-in, Ellison style - but I presume Meg wont miss her keynote while chasing Americas Cup yachts!

HP mistake by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 21:58 · Score: 0

First, only support OS releases for a limited time (sometimes less than warranty period; W2012 for DL380 G6 after much wrangling many other products dropped to premature death only to wrestle more sales).

Second, no firmware updates for new CPU revisions (ML110 G7 and Z210: no support for E3-12xx -v2 or -v3).

Third, charge for the firmware that passes First and Second above.

Fourth/last, go out of business, enough is enough, I'll think about going elsewhere next. Certainly long before paying the outrageous support fees now demanded.

Really, when I bough the products I expected firmware updates for life, now they cost. I'm disappointed and a bit miffed (again).

Result: lots of cheap servers on eBay and pissed of HP customers.

Stupid by Karmashock · 2014-02-04 22:09 · Score: 1

No one needs to use their products. This puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

Indifferent to anything else, this is a stupid business decision. Who is management at this company and why are they incompetent?

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Apotheker's dream come true. by MouseTheLuckyDog · 2014-02-04 22:10 · Score: 2

A few years from now, HP will no longer sell hardware.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by vux984 · 2014-02-04 22:20 · Score: 1

Doesn't Cisco do this too? Its a royal piss off.

HP by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 22:23 · Score: 0

Hijos de Puta.

Re:Bad Summary: Read the Article! Only HP Integrit by LordFolken · 2014-02-04 22:39 · Score: 1

I saw this too now.. thats idiotic.

Who, now? by MMC+Monster · 2014-02-04 22:41 · Score: 1

I just recommended a laserjet multifunction printer to my dad (he was burning through ink in am inkjet and his scanner was getting flakey under OS X).

What should I recommend people in the future? Particularly the Linux/OS X crowd? Or am I just jumping a little too early?

(I'm a little nervous as the installation process for my Laserjet m1217 on Linux Mint involves downloading a proprietary blob from HP.)

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Re:Who, now? by bwcbwc · 2014-02-05 00:59 · Score: 1

This only applies to enterprise HW. There's no sign this applies to home/small business customers. At least not yet.

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We are the 198 proof..
Re:Who, now? by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 01:07 · Score: 1

I just recommended a laserjet multifunction printer to my dad (he was burning through ink in am inkjet and his scanner was getting flakey under OS X).
Yeah, I hated my dad too. He's dead now, though, so I can't saddle him with a piece of shit that becomes an anchor if either part of it fails, and either part of it almost certainly will fail, and which will almost certainly not have drivers for his next OS and thus will have to be replaced completely.
HP hasn't made a printer worth buying since the 2300 and 4050. Note that these are real printers which speak a real language, they don't just take a bitmap. Dumbprinters are universally shit.

What should I recommend people in the future? Particularly the Linux/OS X crowd? Or am I just jumping a little too early?
Depends, do you need color? I have a laserjet 2300dn with 128MB added. It prints everything I can throw at it in very good time and at very high quality with very cheap toner. I would couple it with a Canon LiDe scanner, because they are USB-powered and very quiet, and work with Linux. Double-check compatibility before buying, though. However, if you get a decent printer, there's no need to check compatibility. It only needs to be standards-based.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Who, now? by datapharmer · 2014-02-05 03:21 · Score: 1

okidata with ps/pcl support. Toner cost is a bit higher per page on the lower end models, but fine if he isn't printing books.

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Re:Who, now? by Grishnakh · 2014-02-05 03:34 · Score: 1

I've got the same printer, the LaserJet 2300 (I don't think it has the "dn" suffix; they only really made two versions of this printer, the 2300 and the 2300L which is the cheaper, slower, crappier one; the 2300 is always duplex, and has a port for the JetDirect card to make it networked). It's a great printer. The only problem I have is I have the 250-sheet Tray 3 addition (which I carried over from a 2200d I got on Ebay), which for some reason won't feed sheets. It seems to be in the removable tray cartridge, since I can swap trays with my normal tray, and then tray 2 won't feed but tray 3 will. I tried replacing the roller and separator pads, to no avail. Oh well, the rest of it works great.
So are the 2400-series printers crap? They look like the immediate successor to the 2300 series.
I also have one of those Canon LiDE USB scanners (LiDE 50 I think), and second your recommendation. Works great in Linux. Be careful buying scanners and always check the SANE scanner database. Some Canon scanners like this one work perfectly, others don't work at all. It all depends on the chipset the scanner is based on.
I would like to get a good color (laser) printer in the future, any recommendations?
Re:Who, now? by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 04:57 · Score: 1

I had the same problem with the 250-sheet tray. I have had better luck with the 500-sheet tray, which is a bit harder to find. I even ordered one, only to have the 250-sheet tray show up. And malfunction.
You can try expanding the spring in the tray...
No advice on a color laser, sorry. Last time I cared about color printers I liked Tek. So you can see how long ago that was...

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Who, now? by Grishnakh · 2014-02-05 05:33 · Score: 1

Thanks, I'll give the spring trick a try, and look for one of the 500-sheet trays. This printer is a great high-volume (for a home office) printer since it's so dirt-cheap to run, though I'd like to have a decent color laser around too for those less-frequent jobs.
Re:Who, now? by NJRoadfan · 2014-02-05 05:54 · Score: 1

The CLJ4700s appear to be tanks. The 4600 was extremely buggy (it was HP's first single pass color laser), avoid it. I have a 3700dn at home and it seems to work fine and supports Postscript 3 (also seems to support direct PDF 1.4 printing), PCL 5c, and PCL 6. Connectivity is great, with Jetdirect slot for networking, USB, and even parallel. Expect to use 3rd party toner carts as nobody seems to carry the HP OEM stuff for the 3500/3700 series.
Re:Who, now? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:30 · Score: 0

Brother printers. They still use a toner cartridge that's very cheap (TN-450) and has been around for years, and has very high yield. Oh, and their printers are cheap, too.

UK Sales of Goods Act (SOGA) 1974 as amended by ermintru · 2014-02-04 22:49 · Score: 1

Like to see them get around that, even if your goods are out of warranty or service you still have statutory rights that last much longer. http://sogahub.tradingstandard... If a critics bug l but was found in firmware that was there from day 1 or introduced by them while fixing other problems then they would have to fix it or be in breach of the sales of goods act and technically no time limit that only starts when a fault is discovered. If you wanted new or added features then they would not have to provide them under SOGA. Loads of info here http://sogahub.tradingstandard...

Re:UK Sales of Goods Act (SOGA) 1974 as amended by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 23:30 · Score: 0

UK is not a prime example of this, in fact, the UK retailers regulary break consumer EU wide law, warranties in the EU are ALL 2 years, a lot of UK retailers only give 1 year in breach of EU law.
Re:UK Sales of Goods Act (SOGA) 1974 as amended by ledow · 2014-02-05 01:45 · Score: 1

And get stung for it.
They say "it doesn't affect your statutory rights" because they have to. You STILL have the 2 years. They just give you one year of some "premium warranty". But nowhere are they allowed to imply, state, or contest that they are actually giving you a free 2 year warranty for defects anyway - because they are required to by law, whether they say it or not.
And Apple had to run a message on its UK frontpage stating exactly that, by court order, when it tried to argue otherwise.
Don't believe them when they tell you. Just ask for it in writing that they aren't going to fix it and/or report them to trading standards if they don't.
There's a big difference between what they want you to think and what's actually true and only an idiot would actually fall for it.

Re:Bad Summary: Read the Article! Only HP Integrit by Golden_Rider · 2014-02-04 22:50 · Score: 1

someone should edit the top post...

"...beginning September 2013, Hewlett-Packard Company will change the way firmware updates on HP Integrity and HP 9000 products are accessed..."

No. It's also standard Proliant servers. Read the mails quoted in other posts here. The summary just links to a mail received by somebody owning HP9000 stuff, that's why it only mentions HP9000 products.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Demonantis · 2014-02-04 22:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

Yes Cisco does. I have seen it a couple times with other enterprise products. It is evil. The product basically becomes a paperweight after the planned life cycle.

Re:Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 22:58 · Score: 1

Interestingly, boards of directors keep falling for this. (You'd think they'd look at what happens to companies candidates had "turned around" in the several years AFTER they left when evaluating CEO, COO, and CFO candidates. But apparently they usually don't.)

Why would they bother? Most board members are on the board of multiple companies, it's entirely likely that a member sits on both boards that appointed a CEO.

Look at this shit.

Conflict of Interests? Never met him!

Don't know about failing misserably... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-04 23:56 · Score: 1

Oracle are the biggest offenders in this field, but no one expects Oracle to be anything but asshats, so that doesn't particularly way against them by now. HP on the other hand will now start with this in the minus account when I take offers for equipment, while before they where usually on pretty even foot with Dell.

Re:Don't know about failing misserably... by idontgno · 2014-02-05 04:16 · Score: 1

The phrase this brings to mind is "race to the bottom".
"Hey, our tech support and warranty policies don't have to be any better than the other guys'."
And the entire marketplace becomes a refuse-strewn wasteland littered with engineered-obsolescence hardware and unmaintainable firmware, populated by a few "privateering" souls who'll offer cheap contracted support by bootlegging patches and updates. (At least, until they get captured and hanged.)
Dear God, I hate what the enterprise channel has become. I'm glad I'm not a sysadmin or system manager now.
About the only bright spot is that there's much less rape and pillage in the Linux server space, if you can live with fairly vanilla commodity hardware or self-support for your chosen OS install.

--
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Ex post facto by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:07 · Score: 0

That would work, except this is a retroactive change, not something the buyer could take into account when buying.

Which is Better? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:07 · Score: 0

Does anyone want to argue that coming up with fixes doesn't cost money? If so stop reading here, your grasp on reality or your penchant for disagreeing just to disagree means that the following will be a waste of your time.

The essential argument is TANSTAAFL.

Coming up with fixes and distributing them costs money. If you can't generate money from that service to pay for it then it must come from somewhere else. Other sources could be from the investments made with the profit that came from the original sale(s) (hardware, service/support contracts) or from other current offerings that are generating money. Option 2 means your current customers are supporting former customers who want a free ride. Unless you are constantly growing your profit then more and more of it will be used supporting unpaid for legacy "stuff". You either go out of business due to no profit or loose to newer competitors whose legacy support is smaller and then you go out of business. Either way the company is no longer providing "free" support to people who want infinte support for something they only paid finite money for. Add in that most people seem to buy the least expensive item, cheap furniture and ink jet printers come to mind. That means that the cost of "infinite free support" can't be built into the initial cost of the product.

So it comes down to whether you want to deal with:

1. A company that will go out of business and leave you in the lurch but gives out short term "freebies";
2. A company that charges a fair price for the service it provides you; or
3. A company that over charges for the services it provides you.

I try for option number 2.

Re:Which is Better? by Overzeetop · 2014-02-05 02:38 · Score: 1

If you support the hardware/software, you are on the hook for the safety involved (think security breeches). If you know of a security/safety defect, come up with a repair for that defect, and then withhold that repair, you may be held accountable for not making it available. This is usually applied in the consumer field (think CPSC recalls on cribs, or NTSB recalls for motor vehicles), but would probably apply in a court to commercial sales as well.
Now, you can "end of life" a product and possibly get around it. MS EOLs operating systems, but for their primary line support goes out many years.

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Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:11 · Score: 0

Well first of all, this story is about denying access to updates to non-paying customers. Second of all, *all* products have a planned life cycle - companies aren't going to provide updates forever.

Baby with bathwater by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:16 · Score: 0

They also risk losing shops like mine. We buy a few hounded enterprise machines per year, and a service contract is not really a problem. But anything that involves calling support or pulling out passwords instead of just downloading from the public web weighs against them in the "inconvenience" column. The price differences are so small between HP and their competitors that this will be all that is needed to loose some deals.

co.uk is not a consumer by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:22 · Score: 0

I'm not a UK resident, so I might have misunderstood, but doesn't that only apply to consumers? We are talking enterprise here, so only companies are normally involved.

Well ... duuhh ...! by SplatMan_DK · 2014-02-05 00:29 · Score: 1

Have a nice little brick here. Supposed to be a procurve switch, but no power, and hp refuses to honour any and all support requests. They're supposed to have lifetime warranty, but evidently not. Not so surprising the support for the rest is going to pot too.

If the switch is dead then obviously it's "lifetime" support has expired...

- Jesper

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My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...

Re:Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this by AmiMoJo · 2014-02-05 00:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

You'd think they'd look at what happens to companies candidates had "turned around" in the several years AFTER they left when evaluating CEO, COO, and CFO candidates. But apparently they usually don't.

No, that is part of the scam. The MBA applying for the new job points out how everything went to shit after they left, so clearly their genuius is worth paying big bucks for and any other merely qualified applicant will surely fail in such a high pressure, highly skilled role.

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Re:Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 00:37 · Score: 0

"Crossing the Chasm" is about more revenues by making a tech product more mainstream. It has nothing to do with cutting investments. I think you are extrapolating too much from one data point.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anne+Thwacks · 2014-02-05 00:47 · Score: 1

Which is why you should only ever use open source for infrastructure..

OTOH, if you bought HP, you are already stuffed.

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Kind of like desktop performance, too by swb · 2014-02-05 00:47 · Score: 1

Or really just like desktops. Most server workloads in most places haven't grown fast enough to make 3 year old hardware unusable and this has been true for a while, which is why you have seen virtualization grow so much. Now not only can you put multiple VMs on a box, the CPU is 'good enough' for past the old 3 year benchmark, too.

The other (and often more urgent) need to replace systems was outstripping internal storage. Now that storage is externalized onto SANs in even smaller organizations, mostly thanks to virtualization, that reason is gone too -- you expand your SAN storage instead of the whole server.

I can see why from a money standpoint HP wants to do this, but I wonder how much they will really benefit. I don't see a ton of BIOS issues with VMware on 3-5 year old HP servers.

Consumer goods are different from enterprise by sirwired · 2014-02-05 00:51 · Score: 1

Recalls commonly happen on consumer goods. For commercial goods, it is pretty common for the buyer to bear the burden of even safety defects post-warranty. The closest example is aviation. After the pretty-short warranty on the plane, any defects, even in design, found later must be repaired by the purchaser, at their cost. This even applies to Airworthiness Directives which, if not fixed by a certain deadline, ground the plane.

And if software manufacturers can (and do) charge for ongoing patches, why can't HP do the same thing for the software that runs on their hardware?

Goodbye HP by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 00:54 · Score: 1

When Oracle started doing this, they lost a massive load of goodwill.

Now HP has decided to emulate Oracle.

They've gone from making the world's shittiest PCs to making the world's shittiest decisions.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re:Goodbye HP by Spamalope · 2014-02-05 07:12 · Score: 1

When Oracle started doing this, they lost a massive load of goodwill.
How? They didn't have any to lose.

That helps by Going_Digital · 2014-02-05 00:54 · Score: 1

So what HP are telling me is that they have no confidence in their products so they are not prepared to take the risks of maintaing their products. Instead they are telling us that there are so many defects in their products that they want to shift the burden of maintenance on to their customers, in doing so they no longer have to worry about the poor quality of their products costing them money. It is great for me as I now know that the next server I buy will not be HP. Stand behind your products or take a hike is what I say.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 00:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm not an IT person, but weren't there a few companies that tried this crap wwaayy back when? I seem to remember them all failing miserably.

If you were a reader of slashdot you'd know that Oracle is suing companies for providing patch access to customers without a support contract right now. And people are finding ways not to be an Oracle customer (right now) as a result. Naturally HP thought it would be a good idea, as they have too many customers.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

If I were an HP enterprise customer... by bwcbwc · 2014-02-05 00:57 · Score: 2

I would demand a refund for any defect found in firmware/etc.

This is only going to lead to court cases where the defect report was filed during the warranty, but the fix comes out after warranty expiration.

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We are the 198 proof..

Re:HP already does this for consumer level custome by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 01:01 · Score: 1

Maybe the difference was consumer grade laptop vs business grade desktop, even if it that were the case, there'll probably be no difference between the two now.

Sure, HP support is great. I even got a defective Elitebook replaced. It was one of those ones with the Quadro die bonding problem. After spending a total of 24 hours or more on the phone with HP and forming a personal relationship with one of their case managers, I was able to get the machine (which was defective the day it arrived, and HP knew they were defective before it was shipped) replaced.

Wait, that's a horrible story. I guess HP is actually pure fucking evil, and you just got astoundingly lucky.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re:HP used to be great by c · 2014-02-05 01:08 · Score: 1

So anywhere you read something about "HP" doing something stupid... Think "Compaq" instead, and it all makes sense.

So... back when Compaq bought Compaq... ?

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Used Equipment by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:09 · Score: 0

This is squarely targeting the used equipment / eBay market. HP does not want you to buy their used equipment from eBay or other sellers; they want you to buy new. I have outfitted several clients with used server equipment - Dell and HP - because it fit their need and their budget. In some cases, it is cheaper to buy spare used equipment and plan for failover (as you should be doing anyway) than it is to buy new with top shelf support For many businesses, storage needs have not increased significantly in the past 3 - 5 years nor have their processing needs. I have a client with a small VMWare setup using Dell Poweredge 1950s. After from a memory upgrade 2 years ago, they have all the processing capacity they will ever need.

What will happen is that the market for used HP server will become difficult - a buyer has no way of getting the BMC, the RAID Controller and the BIOS on a firmware version everything is happy with unless they pay HP. Which HP will be more than happy to sell them for a price probably 2x - 3x what the equipment is worth. Margins on server hardware have been going down for the last 5 years (look at Dell's last sales reports - all of their profit came from warranties basically). This is basically a way to prop up the margins on new server sales by pushing more volume away from the used market and back to HP.

So price accordingly by dutchwhizzman · 2014-02-05 01:13 · Score: 1

Don't nickel and dime customers after they bought the product. You already paid for the "life time" updates when you bought the equipment years ago. Now they want you to pay *again*? Sorry, you may want to do that for new purchases and announce it 6 months ahead. People already budgeted and bought stuff and now all of a sudden you're messing with their budget after the money is spent?

If it's one thing I hate it is a vendor on which I can't rely after I made a commitment to them. HP sold this equipment with "free" downloadable supportpacks and firmware upgrades. That deal has been made in the past and now they're coming back on it? Sorry, you just made my blacklist HP, I'd rather buy Lenovo or Dell if you don't come back on this decision really fast.

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Re:So price accordingly by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:47 · Score: 0

You already paid for the "life time" updates when you bought the equipment years ago.
Are you sure about that? Did they advertise lifetime free updates, or did you just assume that you should get everything for free forever because you're awesome. Are you planning on demanding updates for your Commodore and your PIII server circa 2001 as well?

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by synapse7 · 2014-02-05 01:13 · Score: 3, Informative

We had a 48port netgear switch that didn't pass ipv6 traffic, and netgear supported wanted to charge us for the firmware update, we didn't get it.

I want to be the judge in that lawsuit. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:16 · Score: 0

I want to be the judge in that lawsuit.

"So, you have a software patch for the problem, showing that it's not simply wear and tear, but an actual manufacturing defect. You sold a defective product, and now you refuse to fix it without a separate 'support contract', and that even though the customer can install the fix himself at no cost to you. This court rules, that the defendent - HP - is in bad faith, and the case is resolved by reversing the sale. HP is to refund the entire product price, and the customer is to return the server in its to HP within 10 working days after the price is returned, allowing time to move any data to a new server. Because the server is likely not in new condition anymore, HP is not required to pay interest on the product price."

Re:I want to be the judge in that lawsuit. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 04:05 · Score: 0

Again, not all patches are for defects.

The real reason they're doing it... by bwcbwc · 2014-02-05 01:17 · Score: 1

HP wrote: “This type of support provider may appeal to budget-conscious procurement managers, but the support doesn’t match the breadth and depth of HP’s support expertise or global parts supply chain nor does it give our sales reps and partners the added loyalty that comes from an ongoing relationship built over time between HP and the customer, an attribute which often goes unrecognized.”

So among other reasons, they want to squeeze out or get a cut from the non-partnered support providers who are freeloading off of HP HW patches and making money from their own customers. Customers without any support contract at all are getting caught in the cross-fire. Another issue is that customers who don't _need_ a full-service support deal, but do want access to patches and parts don't have that type of option available from HP.

All in all a pretty dumb move: Not much immediate financial gain, and loads of customer ill-will.

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We are the 198 proof..

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:18 · Score: 1

Yes, good old Oracle. I have a few pieces of SUN gear at my home and cant download newer firmware as i don't have an "oracle enterprise" account. Nothing says "customer friendly" like charging your customers for fixes for your product which was costly as well.

Why is that? by SplatMan_DK · 2014-02-05 01:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

I use old HP servers for fun, development, and test sandbox work. I get most of them for free (salvaged from customers who replace them) and upgrade them with parts from eBay. So having to pay for firmware updates is certainly something that will annoy me on a personal level.

Having said that however, I don't understand why you would make such an obviously emotional decision. If you really want to ditch HP (and I am not a stockholder so I am not protecting them) you should do an actual TCO calculation to see if the new support arrangement actually has any real consequence for you. If you already buy servers "by the ton" then odds are you already have a support agreement which will provide you with full access to the entire HP repository of updates.

I don't find it problematic that HP want's to charge prices for firmwares. In fact, I wished more companies did so. In reality you already paid for "lifetime updates" when you purchased, say, a G7 server. So let me just mention the possible benefits of a functional post-warranty market for updates:

1.) Over time, paid firmware update will decrease the price of the new server and/or its initial support contract. Rather than paying for "lifetime updates" the initial owner gets to pay only for his/her actual usage of updates.

2.) A functional post-warranty firmware market (with a culture where paying for this service was widely accepted) would mean more vendors would support their hardware for longer. Simply because customers would be willing to pay for updates. I have often wished it was possible to update the firmware for stuff, like network printers, small routers, older laptops, graphics cards, as well as servers. Have you never been in a situation where you wished you could throw 20 bucks at Asus to get a recent formware for ?

3.) Most hardware today is changed because of lack of support - not because of actual failure (or even the prospect of failure). Which is likely why HP seeks to make an actual business out of their post-warranty support. Paid updates could, if prices are reasonable, prolong the lifespan of gear - reducing e-waste and spent man-hours. There is no reason a server witrh the build-quality of a HP G7 or a BL c7000 should last only 3 years. It will easily last 8 if maintained properly, and if support options are available and fair.

Hell, I just fired up an old HP c3000 with 6 servers, 40 Xeon cores and 92 gigs of RAM. It uses a bit more power than new servers - sure - but the hardware was acquired for free, using it means delaying e-waste, and it gets the job done with no problems at all. But I am sure it would all have been a nightmare if updates were not available. New ILO2 firmwares, updated RAID controller firmwares, new version of LightsOut ... I would happily have paid a bit of money for that.

You should stop making decisions when you're emotional about something.

Calculate your TCO, including support and quality. Then decide if you should ditch HP or not.

If HP (and others) jkeep the price for these updates fair, I see no problem with this. In fact I welcome it, hoping it will gain attention from smaller vendors in the consumer space as well.

- Jesper

--
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...

Re:Why is that? by nabsltd · 2014-02-05 03:21 · Score: 2

1.) Over time, paid firmware update will decrease the price of the new server and/or its initial support contract. Rather than paying for "lifetime updates" the initial owner gets to pay only for his/her actual usage of updates.
2.) A functional post-warranty firmware market (with a culture where paying for this service was widely accepted) would mean more vendors would support their hardware for longer.
All completely wrong.
There are many vendors today who don't charge the premium prices that HP, Cisco, Dell, etc., charge, yet support their product for free for more than 5 years. I'm not talking about something that requires a physical replacement (i.e., warranty repair/replace), but rather firmware updates, posting new knowledge base articles, etc.
As an example, we just bought a Cisco computer with 4 processors (32 cores), 1.5TB of RAM and 16 900GB SAS drives. The price from Cisco was around $120K, while buying that exact same hardware (reference motherboard from Intel, Seagate drives, Crucial RAM, LSI RAID cards, etc.) as a "white box" would cost around $40K. Since the individual components will have the exact same warranty that Cisco gives (more, in some cases, like the RAM), what, exactly does that extra $80K buy? And, how much do you think they will lower their price if they only have to produce firmware updates after the three-year warranty expires for people who pay for extended support?
Basically, the only way to get extra sales by not providing support is for these companies to slash the initial sales prices in half, and that's never going to happen. You might see a 5% drop, but knowing that you'll have to spend even more that than for the support, you'll go elsewhere.
Re:Why is that? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:29 · Score: 1

If you already buy servers "by the ton"
So here is the rub. Now you will have to *prove* you own the hardware and have the right account to get at the firmware.
So instead of download install and rock on. You now have to find the right guy in your org that has access to the website.
Making it harder for people to use your hardware is not a good way to get new customers. It is a good way for them to think you are a hassle and buy something ELSE next time.
If HP (and others) jkeep the price for these updates fair
Take that same hardware you got for free and price it out. You will see they are essentially gouging their customers for HW they maybe have 300-1000 in material cost into. There is a *reason* all the big boys (google, facebook, MS, amazon, etc) are building their own. HP has not figured that out yet apparently. They figured out they can hire full time a couple of guys to sit and stare at the blinking lights all day for what they charge for the support costs for a few dozen boxes with the spares sitting at the ready.
Guess I will have to swing by the website and download all the latest firmwares I can for my laptops. As its only a matter of time before they try this stunt on their consumer side.
My wife worked at a steak place. They gave away salads for free. These were 30-50 dollar plates (back in the late 90s). Some bright spark figured 'hey we can make more money'. They started charging 3-5 bucks for a salad. *ALL* the customers bitched about it. The company said it was a 'good' thing. The place was usually bumping. 2-3 hour waits. After the salad fiasco? They closed in 5 years due to lack of business. People felt they were getting a bad deal. Its not like they didnt have the money for the salad they were buying high priced meals already. The felt the business saw there wallets as fresh fertile ground to plunder. They moved on to the place down the street that had a similar snooty setting and most important free salads. 15 years later still going strong.
Re:Why is that? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:35 · Score: 0

TCO is the cost of one Carepaq, oops, Care pack, and the file server to keep it and future updates available.
Re:Why is that? by Areyoukiddingme · 2014-02-05 06:09 · Score: 2

2.) A functional post-warranty firmware market...
What bullshit is this? There is no market. First, the firmware is copyrighted. HP has a legal monopoly on distribution of it. (As Oracle is setting about proving in court.) Second, no one else has access to the necessary information to write their own firmware. HP is necessarily the only possible author.
Where the fuck do people get the idea that "if you paid money, you participated in a market"? Monopolies are not markets. Monopolies are the very antithesis of markets. A necessary condition of having a market is having competition, and that certainly doesn't apply to firmware updates.

...would mean more vendors would support their hardware for longer.
Longer? You mean shorter. Support before the change lasts indefinitely long. The firmware updates were available to download by anyone who wants them, including updates to hardware that is more than a decade old. Now, that firmware is not available without a fee, and possibly not available at all. That's shorter, not longer.

1.) Over time, paid firmware update will decrease the price of the new server and/or its initial support contract.
Wrong. Wrong in so many ways, but wrong especially because of this mythical "market" that does not exist. Monopoly providers do not EVER do that. They don't have to, and they can and do increase prices instead. Firmware updates for HP products are an HP monopoly. Paying for them only gives HP more money. It puts zero downward pressure on any other aspect of their pricing. The only possible source of downward pricing is people making purchasing decisions based on this policy and refusing to buy HP hardware at all. Thankfully, HP is not the monopoly hardware provider they evidently think they are.

If HP (and others) jkeep the price for these updates fair...
When in the history of the world has a monopoly provider ever done that, absent heavily enforced law to the contrary?

In fact I welcome it, hoping it will gain attention from smaller vendors in the consumer space as well.
I'm sure it will gain all sorts of attention, as everybody watches HP sales decline and HP customer satisfaction plummet. It's a good lesson.
Re:Why is that? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-06 05:53 · Score: 0

Which one of you idiots criticized Compaq (I'm too lazy to scroll back up). HP destroyed that once-great company. It's true that HP's x86 server line today is all from what was Compaq, but the quality that made Proliant a common name in the DC is long gone (and not Compaq).

Re:HP used to be great! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:21 · Score: 0

Thinkpads went to shit when IBM sold their laptop division to China. Anyone could have, and many did, correctly predicted just how fucking shitty they would get. Also, let's not forget they're loaded with Chinese spyware now.

Don’t buy from HP. Or Dell. by Theovon · 2014-02-05 01:21 · Score: 2

They charge too much and their hardware is always out of date.

I decided to buy some seriously high-end computing equipment for research, and I compared HP, Dell, and Red Barn. For the same price, Red Barn gave me newer hardware, more hardware, faster turn-around on quotes, better service, faster build times, and faster customer service. http://rbtginc.redbarncomputers.com

Finishing the job Carly Fiorina started by kimvette · 2014-02-05 01:22 · Score: 1

Don't worry, they're just finishing the job Carly started. She tried to kill both HP and Compaq and failed, so now they're moving directly to telling customers "fuck you" because they really do not want to keep what market share they still have.

--
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Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:26 · Score: 0

I hope this was a Layer 3 aware switch..

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by Mabhatter · 2014-02-05 01:35 · Score: 1

IBM, Oracle, Red Hat, Cisco... All do it too. Generally, you keep things like this open and free when you want to GROW sales NOW versus cash-in. This move generally means you're confident enough your customers can't jump ship or get their patches elsewhere.

I think as a customer you have to realize a company needs money to "keep the lights on". If you haven't given them money for more than three years, how are YOU keeping their doors open?

Sitting on your own nuts by Spinlock_1977 · 2014-02-05 01:40 · Score: 1

Now that I'm no longer an OpenVMS customer, it's kinda fun watching the owner who mistreated it sitting on its own nuts, wondering why it hurts.

Coming Up Next: HP develops unexpected limp after whacking itself in the knee with a ball peen hammer.

--
- The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse

Thanks anyway by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:47 · Score: 0

I remember SUN starting to charge for rollups just before I stopped using them and going to Linux. Good luck HP;-)

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 01:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

Bullshit. It's not MY job to keep THEIR lights on. If they want to keep their lights on, give me a reason to buy more products from them. These days, better support and customer service will earn more business than trying to nickel and dime everyone. If HP wanted to increase their sales, they should have improved their support and service instead of decreasing it.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by aaarrrgggh · 2014-02-05 01:52 · Score: 1

What exactly do you suggest? We used to buy generic servers, but the warranty/support was terrible, so we switched to Dell. We used to run Linux firewalls, but the VPN options were incompatible with iPhones. (Yes, you can use the awful kludge of an essentially adware-laden OpenVPN client now.). So, we went with Cisco.

To be honest, I am most pissed with our multifunction printers now. Ricoh has become very difficult to self-repair and expensive to operate, Minolta worse... Haven't found a good current model yet that can print PDF vector graphics quickly and with good quality, while still being easy to replace the drum or rollers without a technician.

Oracle is even worse that that. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 02:00 · Score: 0

On recent mid-end servers (think about M4000), you need service codes to reset failure alerts.
It's not enough to get second hand PSU or memory sticks, because you need codes generated for your server to "un-fault" them.

viva - viva la revolución! - join the FSF by gridrunnernet · 2014-02-05 02:08 · Score: 1

Anyone else think open hardware is a pretty good idea at this point? Let's help companies like HP stop making bad decisions like this by only using hardware that has openfirmware and drivers in the first place. Remember though : Nvidia is going to be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by urbanriot · 2014-02-05 02:08 · Score: 2

Yes, Cisco also does this and the necessity to call them, pleading for an up-to-date firmware when your brand new Cisco unit has a 2 year old ASA bin, ASDM and VPN which won't work with your client's newer Internet Explorer. This is also why it's common amongst IT people to say "screw you Cisco" and share firmware on secret yet publicly hosted HTTP sites made available through one service contract for one device.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by CastrTroy · 2014-02-05 02:09 · Score: 1

You see this a lot of "business" hardware. We got a PBX that only gives firmware updates as long as you have a support contract. The support contract costs almost as much as the hardware itself. And they haven't even added features in the past 10 years. For instance, auto-attendant messages must be in some 8-bit low frequency wav format that's so archaic that it's almost impossible to create with modern audio software.

--

Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 02:16 · Score: 0

As you say, bullshit.

Better customer support and service costs money, which means they have to charge more for the product. At which point all the complaining customers going to the "cheaper" competition, and the cycle repeats as they again complain about the poor customer service.

Most of the market is simply unwilling to pay upfront for a good experience, instead shopping on price alone.

If they designed it better... by AmazinglySmooth · 2014-02-05 02:24 · Score: 1

you wouldn't need firmware updates.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by afidel · 2014-02-05 02:30 · Score: 1

Nah, I've gladly paid more money for HP hardware and support over Dell for the last 10 years, but if HP is actually going to make my life more difficult by putting their crappy website behind a paywall so I can't find the updates I need then I'll take my money elsewhere. I know I'm not alone either because anyone shopping on price alone has been going Dell/Supermicro all along.

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There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.

National and data security implications by Overzeetop · 2014-02-05 02:33 · Score: 1

More importantly, by not providing repairs for exploits for (defective) software products they shipped and are still shipping/supporting, it may open them up to law suits if those exploits are used in security (national and personal) breeches. They put a product in the market place with a defects which were not only disclosed to/known by them, but which they intentionally withheld from customers so that the systems could not be properly secured.

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Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?

Re:National and data security implications by spacepimp · 2014-02-05 08:20 · Score: 1

The same logic can be applied to phone carriers who deny updates to promote people buying new phones. Personally I'd love to see lawsuits coming out to Verizon who withheld updates to a popular phone because they didn't want an app to compete with their future business possibilities.

HP is bad enough, without this nightmare by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 02:34 · Score: 0

To have to PAY to fix problems that the hardware shipped with, is just ridiculous. I am just removing HP from our approved vendor list, in light of this news. We can't afford to deal with vendors with this attitude.
After my dismal experiences with HP Itanium 2 servers, I have always been cautious about recommending HP machines. To update the firmware on these, you had to update the baseboard management controller, one version at a time, each time TFTPing the images to the BMC, then rebooting. Subsequently, you could then update the main firmware image. What a mess it was. Clearly usability wasn't given a thought. There has been a host of HP gear, with similarly horrible usability.

Re:HP already does this for consumer level custome by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 02:38 · Score: 0

HP consumer support is a joke. I wanted to add some more RAM to an HP machine. Unfortunately their motherboards have hidden requirements which they don't publish. Buying RAM based on what they say should work does not work. All HP does to help is to regurgitate the same useless specs that you've already seen and that are of no help because they're incomplete; and they neither offer working RAM nor firmware updates to make their motherboards work according to industry standards.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by Somebody+Is+Using+My · 2014-02-05 02:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

More importantly, it is THEIR job to provide me with a working product. The warranty covers problems with the device caused in the field. If they sold me a product that has known issues then it is their responsibility to provide the fixes, regardless of whether or not I am in warranty. If I plug my 120v (US) router into a 240V (uk) outlet and let out the magic smoke and am out of warranty* that's fair. But if I'm sold an internet firewall that has a secret admin password that can't be changed, it's the company's responsibility to provide the necessary fix so the firewall works as expected.

This should be no different than how automobile companies are expected to act. If a serious flaw is found in a car, it doesn't matter if it is this year's model or from ten years ago, or whether you are the original owner or have purchased it used; you are entitled to that fix. Why some software vendors have somehow gotten it into their heads that they have the right to sell us lemons and then make us pay for the privilege of fixing their mistakes.

* actually, warranty probably wouldn't cover this sort if user-stupidity either, but you get my point ;-)

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 02:54 · Score: 1

For instance, auto-attendant messages must be in some 8-bit low frequency wav format that's so archaic that it's almost impossible to create with modern audio software.

That's what asterisk prefers, too. I believe resampling is handled by a module, and you can feed it fancier audio formats if you like, but then they have to be resampled (or even decoded) on the fly. You can even recode the files in actual codec format so that even that doesn't have to happen. This is handy if you'd like to use a really rinky-dink piece of hardware for your PBX. This is very reasonable if you've got something that's really tried and tested, because you want your PBX to be reliable above all else. It's also useful if you want to use cheap redundant servers; If one fails, you can failover to the next with no penalties other than the loss of all calls in-progress.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

What is this world coming to. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 02:57 · Score: 0

This is a bunch of bull ish. So in order to get patches\firmware ect you have to have a service agreement. What is this world coming to. It's all about making money and not TRUE customer service. What is I have a DEV environment that is just a bunch of old servers that I threw together. Now I can't update my firmware because I don't have a support contract with them? What ever, I will just buy my servers from someone else.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by BlazingATrail · 2014-02-05 03:00 · Score: 0

Isn't that like having to pay for recalled parts for car? HP wouldn't need so many updates if they built it correctly and bug free the first time.

Re:Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this by Grishnakh · 2014-02-05 03:04 · Score: 1

What's even more interesting is that interlocking directorates in the same industry are illegal in the US per the Clayton Act, however the article points out that 1 in 8 interlocks are indeed in the same industry. There's simply no enforcement of this. Thanks again, Obama.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by deadweight · 2014-02-05 03:06 · Score: 1

Yes! +1 I have a Netgear router at home. I get firmware updates every now and then that fix various issues. It costs Netgear *nothing* but traffic for me to download them. At some point I expect the support to end and have no more patches. That is normal. Making me PAY for patches would ensure I would never ever buy their shit again.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 03:11 · Score: 2

I think as a customer you have to realize a company needs money to "keep the lights on". If you haven't given them money for more than three years, how are YOU keeping their doors open?

Yes, that's a valid question. What's in it for them? The answer is reputation. We're specifically talking here about patches that HP has had to develop anyway, to serve their customers with support contracts. The cost of distributing patches to customers can be low, if you don't have a massively overwrought web infrastructure as does HP. If you simply permit third parties to redistribute patches, it's virtually nothing. HP is hoping to strong-arm customers into giving them money, and no doubt it will work on a few of them. But in the bargain it will engender massive resentment in those customers, who will do their best to seek alternative solutions in the future — to say nothing of the effect it will have on your former customers who are not so tied to your systems and services that they cannot take their custom elsewhere.

Oracle is doing their best to plot their own downfall. HP is only still with us today as it is due to inertia. I, for one, will miss neither. But then, I never had an HP calculator.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

What is happening to these guys? by tom229 · 2014-02-05 03:15 · Score: 1

Is it really that difficult to be profitable in the hardware game these days? The only viable American option left these days seems to be Dell.

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

HP servers are on the way out here, by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:15 · Score: 0

and this announcement should help things along quite nicely.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by drinkypoo · 2014-02-05 03:21 · Score: 1

Cisco always has done. As a result, the value of used Cisco kit has tanked since the era of the highly managed switch. Even a cat5k has y2k problems which were never resolved. No point in buying it unless you work someplace with a really great CCO login. Like, say, Cisco. While I worked there I was willing to fiddle with all kinds of old Cisco stuff.

If you want a future-proof router, build one around a PC. Terminal server, likewise. It's cheaper and better. It's only switches (or the most massive of routers) that need more bus bandwidth than you can get in a good one. Even in pure PCI bus machines you could get a machine with multiple high-speed buses.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

dnod ,gniD by Argos · 2014-02-05 03:26 · Score: 1

Carly Fiorina is back?

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by bill_mcgonigle · 2014-02-05 03:31 · Score: 2

I'm not an IT person, but weren't there a few companies that tried this crap wwaayy back when? I seem to remember them all failing miserably.

What makes this more ironic is that HP recently went the other direction on their ProCurve line, offering full features and upgrades for life. I just deployed a cluster on mid-range HP switches yesterday and they were such a better deal than Juniper, specifically because of their software support policy.

But ... because of Juniper, Cisco, even Netgear to some degree they have to compete there. You'll notice that IBM just sold its server business to China, and Dell just announced 15,000 layoffs, both in the past week. HP is in a "last man standing" position, though they're only king of the Brand-Name Hill, while the Whitebox Mountains dominate the landscape.

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My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by sfm · 2014-02-05 03:33 · Score: 2

One of the reasons in gong with a major brand is the implied support that comes with the name. Changing the support paradigm has an effect on sales, it is just delayed. 3 years out is about the timing businesses are looking to upgrade their systems. If patching/drivers becomes a serious issue in managements collective "mind", this will influence the buying decision for next time.

A company can get away with this when they have a locked in market and customers with few alternatives. I don't believe this is the case in the desktop/server area.

Ooh! Good Move! by Greyfox · 2014-02-05 03:34 · Score: 1

1) Sell defective hardware

2) Screw customers around until they're out of warranty

3) Tell them there's a patch that will fix the defect, but they need to pay for a support contract

4) Profit!

Hmm. No question marks in there, must be a bullet proof business model. It's not a new one, though. My parents got a TV from Sears back in the early '70's and apparently it had constant problems that Sears and the manufacturer jerked them around on until it went out of warranty. They tell the story to this day and would refuse to shop at Sears ever since then (For you kids, Sears was like an expensive Wal*Mart that usually lived in shopping malls and sold over-priced hardware to gullable buyers. Kind of like Best Buy.) They also had similar experiences with a couple of car manufacturers and also refuse to buy a couple of brands of cars now. During my customer care training at IBM they told us that an angry customer will tell on average 10 of his friends about his bad experience with your company. A happy customer typically won't tell anyone.

As for my experience with HP, I had to support HPUX as part of a multi-platform driver solution back in the '90's. The environment kind of sucked to work on, but at least it wasn't SCO (Which I also had to support.)

--

I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

Not quite Compaq by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:34 · Score: 0

I worked at Compaq during the HP acquisition and then stayed around for 8 years after the merger. The Compaq culture died out very quickly after the merger to the point where the company that I worked for was unrecognizable. so to say that this is Compaq's fault is not true. HP bought Compaq (though it was presented as a merger of equals) and quickly imposed its culture on the smaller fish.

Well, Thanks for the notice. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:35 · Score: 0

I guess I won't be buying the multi million dollars of equipment from you after all. Do you have Dell's number by chance?

I'm curious... by Dcnjoe60 · 2014-02-05 03:36 · Score: 1

I'm curious as to what is the real impact of this? It is hard to fathom somebody running enterprise servers without support agreements. I'm sure it happens, but what is the percentage of HP's clients that would be impacted by this? If they have to prepare the service packs for, say, 80% of their clients, what is the extra cost involved in letting the others access to them?

If most of their customers have the agreements, then all this announcement does is create bad PR. Unlike Hollywood, the old adage of any PR is good PR does not apply in the tech industry. Just ask Target about how the PR over their credit card fiasco has helped them!

OK by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:36 · Score: 0

Good, bad, or indifferent this will hurt HP's bottom line.

A dangerous path for HP by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · 2014-02-05 03:39 · Score: 1

All fair points, but traditionally the bargain has been that you buy your serious gear from the likes of HP or Dell or Cisco, who are going to charge a lot more than you'd pay for commodity equivalents, but in return the big name gear is generally going to work and you can expect a professional level of ongoing support if and when it doesn't.

If these big name companies don't want to offer that level of ongoing support any more, that's their decision, but then there is little reason to pay a substantial premium to buy the big name equipment in the first place. Building commodity servers and workstations, or getting a reputable and reasonably local supplier to do it for you, can already work out much cheaper than buying your boxes from the premium brands. I don't think the networking/infrastructure side is there yet, but over the next few years I expect SDN and virtualization to put increasing pressure on those areas as well.

It seems short-sighted for brands like HP to risk their reputations with transparent cash grabs like this. It might look good at the end of this quarter, and maybe even this financial year, but it will inevitably push customers towards alternative models, probably enough that some will jump ship. With the likely industry trends over the next few years, it will be a lot more expensive to win those customers back, assuming it's even possible at all by then.

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Today? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:41 · Score: 0

Then why does the linked letter say as of September 2013?

Well, what is the alternative? by hey! · 2014-02-05 03:42 · Score: 1

Do we expect vendors to provide free upgrades and updates to old hardware and software *forever*? At some point a vendor is going to say, "Sorry, you're SOL." Offering customers the option to *pay* for updates to extend the life of their investment doesn't seem so unreasonable, especially when you're talking about enterprise customers.

Limiting free updates to the warranty period only seems unreasonably because the warranty periods tend to be rather short. Financially speaking, computer systems are customarily depreciated over a 5 year period; that is to say that spanking new computer your company buys will be valued at $0 on the books in five years. So it seems to me that expected lifetime of a computer in an enterprise is five years. That should be the baseline over which we determine what is a reasonable period for free updates. Free updates for *over* five years is expecting way too much of a vendor. Personally I'd be satisfied with three years of free updates with an option to buy updates for another three.

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Re:Well, what is the alternative? by AF_Cheddar_Head · 2014-02-05 09:00 · Score: 1

Don't give a FF about new fixes but HP wants to charge me for old fixes to old computers unless I have a service contract. Think of it this way, I have a Proliant Server that I repurpose to a new job, adding an old network card to it to add a capability, sorry need a firmware upgrade to support the old card. Firmware might be 2 years old but I didn't need it (if it ain't broke don't fix it) now with this network card I need the 2 year old firmware upgrade but can't get it because I haven't been paying HP 22% per year to maintain a service contract and you can bet that if I want a service contract I will have to pay for all the lapsed time not just start a new contract.

Bang! Was that my foot ? by Hamsterdan · 2014-02-05 03:51 · Score: 1

Completely stupid on their part. They are already writing the software, why not make it available and not shoot themselves in the foot? I don't think they're aware they are other vendors out there (Dell). I used to work for a big telco, the shop was almost 100% Compaq, was for years. They messed up somehow, now they are 100% Dell (we're talking about 2500 PCs and lots of servers). That was before they were gobbled up by HP. I don't know how many $$$ for a lease that big, but it's certainly a lot of money. Doesn't take much to lose a contract once the lease is up...

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I've got better things to do tonight than die.

Sounds Like... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 03:51 · Score: 0

It sounds like HP has contracted Cisco-itis.

Good luck with that.

Why should I have to pay to get my car fixed? by plopez · 2014-02-05 03:51 · Score: 1

If it is out of warranty. Unless I buy the extended warranty? What a rip off! I want my car to be fixed for free forever!

Seriously, what a bunch of whining snivelers are on this site.

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putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+

Re:Why should I have to pay to get my car fixed? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:13 · Score: 0

Idiot, you don't pay for defects, i.e. "bugs". Recalls go on long after the warranty has expired and the automakers fix the problems for free.
And why the fuck should I pay for the maker's mistakes? Are you really that stupid that you do?

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Shoten · 2014-02-05 03:56 · Score: 1

... they sure as hell will now.

I'm not an IT person, but weren't there a few companies that tried this crap wwaayy back when? I seem to remember them all failing miserably.

Actually and unfortunately, most hardware manufacturing companies do this. Cisco does this, for example. Software companies are less likely to do it, but a lot of them do it as well. When I look at my clients and tick off the list of vendors that are in their environments, only Microsoft and Oracle seem to provide access to updates for free.

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Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by mfinn999 · 2014-02-05 04:05 · Score: 1

They might be allowing access to updates for the wired networking devices, but I can't download the latest firmware for the MSM466 Wireless Access Point without a contract. I'll be looking for another vendor when it comes time to replace them.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 04:08 · Score: 0

So if they stopped offering updates completely you would be happier?

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by bill_mcgonigle · 2014-02-05 04:15 · Score: 1

I can't download the latest firmware for the MSM466 Wireless Access Point without a contract

Good to know. I'd have to be dragged kicking and screaming away from OpenWRT myself, and not because of the price.

--
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)

Netcraft Confirms It by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 04:22 · Score: 0

Netcraft confirms it. HP is dying. The writing is on the wall...

Lots of customers aren't willing to pay for suppor by sjbe · 2014-02-05 04:27 · Score: 1

These days, better support and customer service will earn more business than trying to nickel and dime everyone.

I wish that were largely true but there is a fair bit of research indicating that providing great customer support very often doesn't result in improvements to the bottom line. There are exceptions to this of course but in a lot of industries customers are not willing to pay for support. My industry happens to be one of them. At the end of the day if they aren't willing to pay for it then there is no point in offering good support. People don't shop at Walmart because of the great customer service - they go there because the price is cheap and that is at the end of the day what matters to them.

Speaking for my industry (wire harness manufacturing), our customers don't give a damn about support. They only care about price. Period. Product quality, on time delivery and customer service are expected but they won't (knowingly) pay a fraction of a penny extra for them and if someone undercuts us by a penny or two then we lose the business. This isn't hypothetical - I see it every day. Our customers WILL NOT PAY for good customer service. They might appreciate it but it wins us no loyalty whatsoever.

So I put it to you, do I spend a lot of money developing great customer service knowing full well that it probably will end up losing me money at the end of the day?

Yet another reason to pick another manufactuer. by bored · 2014-02-05 04:29 · Score: 1

IBM recently put a lot of their stuff behind a pay wall too.

I remember in the late 80s early 90s when a lot of companies suddenly started charging for "support".. Back then there was a pretty big pushback in the circles I knew, with people going so far as demanding refunds and the like once they had proven that the problem was actually the vendor's product. That is probably why shortly after everything started shipping with cards that basically say "Our stuff is shit, it probably won't work, and we aren't responsible when it doesn't, so don't try to sue."

I have steered away from vendors that put their updates behind pay walls for a few years now. CISCO, oracle, and now IBM and HP are on my "avoid" list.

Not that I like the HP DL series machines anyway. I started back in ~2005 or so when they decided that the 3.5 drive form factor was dead and promptly replaced all the models with 3.5 drives with crap capacity 2.5 chassis, and subpar cciss controllers that they wanted to charge through the nose for.

The license fees for the advanced ILO license necessary to get IP virtual consoles was silly too, especially since most of the whitebox machines include it on their IPMI implementations for free. Plus, its actually less expensive to buy an IP KVM with a dozen ports than pay the license fees for a couple machines.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 04:33 · Score: 0

Hp still offers the p800 controller and releases updates occassionally. However, it is entirely possible to have one which is out of warranty as they have been around for ages. This is all about squeezing extended contracts on those who were trying to get by until the next upgrade cycle.

Looks like Lenovo are the way to go by uksv29 · 2014-02-05 04:34 · Score: 1

Now IBM have dumped their X86 server busness onto Lenovo it looks like Lenovo might be the the best option for new deployments. At least you can (still) download patches from their website.

Another option would be Huawei, but I don't know what their support is like. At least you can be certain that the spyware on their products is coming from the NSA!

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 04:59 · Score: 0

Did no one read the actual letter? This is for Integrity and HP9000 server only. Two product lines that are likely on their way out.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by gorehog · 2014-02-05 05:05 · Score: 1

Yeah, Cisco shriveled up and died.

Bugs by phorm · 2014-02-05 05:05 · Score: 1

Nearly all bugs are going to be found in the first couple of years

Or - like my old laptop - they just don't bother to fix them but instead tell you to buy a newer model/product. Back in the day, my former laptop had an issue where if you actually used both RAM slots, it would cause random freezes or spontaneous reboots. It was actually an issue with the Northbridge.

At first, HP said they were working on a fix and refused to properly RMA my laptop. Later, they said there was no fix, but - oops sorry - you're out of warranty now. After much bitching and threatening I got some extra RAM to use in a single slot, but I hate to think of all the people that were screwed by this issue.

Second issue: HP "tablet" laptops (reversible screen) were one of many types affected by nvidia chips which had heat issues. IIRC, the chips were soldered on the bottom of the board, and over time the heat would cause the solder to loosen until the chip started to come off the board. Many other manufacturers actually replaced bad models with good ones. HP would just replace the laptop with the same model until your warranty was done.
In fact, HP later released laptops with the same design, but a less thermally inefficient video card. The laptops still overheated because the heat dissipation was still *terrible* - oft killing the NIC instead of the video card - but it took a bit longer to do so (usually long enough that you were out-of-warranty once it happened).

Re:Bugs by Spamalope · 2014-02-05 06:45 · Score: 1

A friend had one of those HP laptops. The wireless NIC failed first. HP support lied and said it was a Windows issue and she'd have to pay. They played the 'Windows problem' card again when it started locking up with video corruption. Once it failed completely just as the warranty expired they stalled for a few weeks then told her it's out of warranty so sorry!

I found reports showing that her failure was characteristic of HP's Nvidia problem, and that HP had instructed its support folks to lie. We called back and didn't get results without demonstrating a willingness to sue for fraud. HP of course, sent a replacement with the same hardware defect.

As for the current actions, I've not got full purchasing authority for our IT department in the server room. We've got 7 HP servers now. There won't be another. I can go with Supermicro or another white box.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by gorehog · 2014-02-05 05:15 · Score: 1

Generally, this type of enterprise class hardware comes with a support contract good for some period of time. During that time you can expect that the firmware and drivers will stabilize. So, don't buy this sort of hardware used if it doesn't come with a disk containing those files.

What bugs me is the faint possibility that they'll hold back firmware patches until the bulk of contracts for a given model expire. Holding back on a firmware update that enables more RAM to force people into extending their contracts? Sure!

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep by deadweight · 2014-02-05 05:19 · Score: 1

Everything goes end of life sooner or later. But I will not be part of some revenue stream to pay them to fix their products. Even a decade later or more I exepct to see the patches available online, even if active support ended years earlier.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 05:29 · Score: 0

Failing?! IBM seems to be doing fine.

Business Down? Sales flat? by kawabago · 2014-02-05 05:32 · Score: 1

Attack your customers! Make them pay for daring to choose you for a supplier! Make them sorry they ever heard your name!

And a giant sucking sound... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 05:32 · Score: 0

Was said to be heard from HP's corporate sales offices as customers bail en-masse.

Re:Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this by Areyoukiddingme · 2014-02-05 05:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

What's even more interesting is that interlocking directorates in the same industry are illegal in the US per the Clayton Act, however the article points out that 1 in 8 interlocks are indeed in the same industry. There's simply no enforcement of this. Thanks again, Obama.

And the previous four administrations. This didn't happen in just the past 6 years. It started a long long time ago, and the Clayton Act, like the Sherman Act, has been out of favor for decades, because it inconveniences people with money.

Thank you Supreme Court for making sure people with money will always have the best government their money can buy.

Re:Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this by Grishnakh · 2014-02-05 05:47 · Score: 1

Yep, Obama is really the "change we need" or whatever his dumb slogan was. He isn't any different than Bush or any previous administration that turns a blind eye to corporate lawbreaking.

Dude - by gekken · 2014-02-05 05:49 · Score: 1

You're getting a Dell

Sue for defective product by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 05:50 · Score: 0

If they want to pull this bullshit, treat the items like any other product. You make a defective product, you fix it or get sued to fix it.

I've never understood why software and computers have gotten a free pass on delivering defective product and then making people pay to fix their mistakes. Doesn't happen in most other products.

IBM did this last year by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 05:51 · Score: 0

And Oracle has had a tight reign on such stuff as well.

Laptops/Desktops by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:06 · Score: 0

This is just servers right? Will I still be able to update the firmware on my home PC?

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 06:24 · Score: 0

As long as you mean Red Hat or SUSE, then okay - but you're going to pay that way, too. You can't just install Linux and put it in production. Companies need support and someone to blame.

So long HP... by alanshot · 2014-02-05 06:37 · Score: 1

Well, I guess I wont be including HP in any of my server bids moving forward. I despise Cisco for crap like this and will only use them when I absolutely must.

Dell by roscocoltran · 2014-02-05 06:39 · Score: 1

Hi,
Purchase Dell products instead. They offer free firmware downloads accessible from FTP without scripts, filters etc... super easy to use, very clean http pages as well.
Yes this is almost a publicity post but this is such a dick move from HP that I have to state the obvious: Dell is cool with his customers on the firmware side.
You can discuss about the quality of Dell products on other subjects or price, but on the firmware/drivers side they are cool and nowadays it need to be said when an IT vendor is cool.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 07:05 · Score: 0

> Yes Cisco does.

Unless you're upgrading for a security fix. In 2008, I got a free IOS update for an old cisco AGS that was very close to twenty years old at the time. Last summer, I got an update for a cisco 2501 that was made in 1995 for free.

Just tell TAC you need to upgrade because of a security-related problem. They'll help you. cisco has awesome support

Again another company being stupid. by NASstorageNinja · 2014-02-05 07:21 · Score: 1

It is one thing to charge for a new feature or enhancement but to charge for fixes for problems that should not be there is really lame. I have used and recommended Dell and HP servers in the past I guess it is time to sell my HP servers and replace them with Dell and stop recommending HP for anything because they just lost all creditability with me. Funny I was just getting ready to buy more HP servers, wonder what Dell has on special. I got an idea why don't all these companies try innovating and creating something NEW everyone "needs" and "wants" instead of re-treading the old stuff and charging people who have already paid once to fix what should not have been broken in the first place. Forcing your customer to pay to fix the mistakes you should not have made in the first place is low and a sign of desperation. Cisco is no better I should not have to pay $450 for a support contract so I can download a patch for something broken in the IOS code in the first place. It is time for customers to tell them thanks but no thanks.

Drano Business Model by Quantum_Mechanic_196 · 2014-02-05 07:23 · Score: 1

HP has been on my $hit list since they bought Apollo computers. HP was #3 in workstations, Apollo was #2. HP bought them, then somehow ended up as #3 anyway.

--
Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of

So much for recommending ProLiants... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 07:36 · Score: 0

Same reason I generally don't recommend Cisco gear to people who don't truly _need_ it...

HP has jumped the shark by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 07:48 · Score: 0

After nearly 25 years as a diehard HP guy, I gave up on them several years back (around the time that that their CEO was running around with that marketing 'consultant'). They left me hanging when I had some defective equipment and refused to honor the warranty. The obvious stall tactics to avoid covering the equipment were unbearable. I attempted to contact some higher ups at HP to warn them I was fed up. Nobody listened. I probably bought or recommended $5M worth of their products during my career. Now I get calls from them wanting my business back. That will never happen.

Nothing new - HP wanted $50 for x64 drivers by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:09 · Score: 0

I had an HP digital camera. When Vista-x64 came out, they wanted $50 to let me download the drivers.
At the time, I'd just specified and approved purchase of $13M in HP Superdome servers and rp84xx boxes.

Way to go HP! You've been learning from EMC and VMware again, huh?

Now I'm a CIO and don't use anything from those companies unless there isn't any other choice. Thankfully, there usually are multiple alternative suppliers.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:11 · Score: 0

I think SUN started charging for Solaris 10 patches even before they were bought by Oracle. It was the final straw to replace our last sparc servers with linux x64 boxes.

In a tough economy... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:14 · Score: 0

Buy second-hand Dell, beef it up, patch it for free, and you're good to go. You can even buy a spare to keep on hand. Been doing this for years. Cheaper than service contracts and the parts are right there on the shelf.

So long and thanks for all the HP sauce by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:32 · Score: 0

A policy like this wil really make sure my next PC won't be a ProLiant.

pshaw by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:41 · Score: 0

You're saying a PC is more complex than a 747? Hogwash. It isn't even more complex than a car.

Lab Hardware by AF_Cheddar_Head · 2014-02-05 08:55 · Score: 1

Sure all my production equipment has current service contracts on them, when a part breaks I need a new part to fix the problem. But when doing a technical refresh the old production equipment typically gets moved to the lab, upgrading the lab. Don't keep a service contract on the lab equipment, why would I? If a part breaks I am not in a hurry to fix it and can typically source it used. Now, HP wants me to keep a service contract on my lab equipment to get drivers and firmware upgrades. That is outrageous and one of the reasons that Cisco is no longer my infrastructure vendor.

Give me the option of a contract that covers downloads only (Think MSDN) and I might do it but not a full-price (22% of hardware cost per year) contract to support my lab. HP can take a hike.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 08:58 · Score: 0

What model routers have you had luck with? I've tried OpenWRT but the Atheros WiFi driver flakiness always gets in the way.

What a load of .... by kallisti5 · 2014-02-05 09:10 · Score: 1

Lovely. This is like car manufacturers charging people to repair recalls. Forcing your customers to pay to fix your shitty product is pretty underhanded. Screw Oracle, screw IBM, screw Cisco, and screw HP.

Um, uh-- by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 09:21 · Score: 0

WHOOOOOOSHHHHHHHhhhh!

Boycott them by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 09:22 · Score: 0

just dont buy HP till they take this idea off the board. if they drop support like that on the 1,000s of units our company has than our company will use someone else next time we re-order.. which is soon becasue we have to move to Win8 here.
(also boycott Target, they are a bad company... any company that has ties with StarBucks you should stay away from anyways)

Dell is no better by Anon+E.+Muss · 2014-02-05 09:38 · Score: 1

IBM, Dell, and Cisco already do the same thing.

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Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by gothzilla · 2014-02-05 09:38 · Score: 1

I can still go to Dell's site and download firmware for really old servers for free. It's one of the bigger reasons why we still buy from them.

now more bugs == more money by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 09:51 · Score: 0

with this model, it seems at least feasible that they could intentionally release bugs so they can sell you the fix, or at least make purchasing the warranty on a future sale seem more appealing... assuming there are any future sales after going through this BS.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by FuegoFuerte · 2014-02-05 10:00 · Score: 1

I take it you've never used HP in the enterprise? HP ProLiant servers are solid hardware, and even with this move (much as it pisses me off) HP's enterprise support is still some of the best I've dealt with. I'm upset about this change (and have, very vocally, let HP know my feelings on the matter), but truth be told they were one of the very few companies to be offering these kinds of updates for enterprise-level hardware without a support contract in the first place.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by FuegoFuerte · 2014-02-05 10:03 · Score: 1

Funny, I don't think I ever saw a P800 that lasted beyond the first 6 months or so... the P400 was good, the P410 excellent, but the P800 in our org had a notoriously low MTBF. Never saw the same problems with the P812s though.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 11:26 · Score: 0

Like I saw in another thread about this

HP went full retard!

That hammering sound? by Smerta · 2014-02-05 11:31 · Score: 1

That hammering sound you hear?

Yes, that's the sound of the last nail being hammered into HP's coffin.

They just want to be Oracle by TheReaperD · 2014-02-05 11:47 · Score: 1

They just want to figure out how Oracle does this to their customers and gets away with it.

1. Create a company
2. Sell a product people want/need
3. Become a monopoly in your field
4. Profit

HP VP: "Wait. Which step were we on?"

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"Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -

You can't buy ( bad ) advertising like this. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-05 14:53 · Score: 0

I don't know who called the shots at HP when this decision was made,
but they made a direct hit on their own foot.

I bet the two fathers of the company would raise hell if someone had tried this bs
while they were still in power.

Re:Harvard Buiness School grads are noted for this by Ungrounded+Lightning · 2014-02-05 15:31 · Score: 1

"Crossing the Chasm" is about more revenues by making a tech product more mainstream. It has nothing to do with cutting investments.

My objection to "Crossing the Chasm" is about a different issue: Cutting the early hires out of their equity positions by terminating the vesting of their stock options and possibly high salaries, so the company growth rewards go to the founders and the high officials rather than to the talent in the trenches that actually turned the hairbrained scheme into a functioning enterprise.

In the process the company typically dumps them before it is really ready to succeed without them. What they're doing for the company, and what information is in their heads but not well documented, isn't sufficiently visible to the executives - especially the new team that is trying to force the transition.

This zinger is in the last couple paragraphs of one of the chapters near the end of the book. (Unfortunately I don't have my copy handy or I'd give you the page number and quote.)

I've watched this happen at least three times here in Silicon Valley.
- Exec enthuses about the book.
- Couple months later the company lays off the early hires.
- Product development grinds to a near-halt as problems arise and don't get solved. Shipments are missed, or go out with major quality issues. Customer support fails.
- Within about a year the company goes belly-up.

--
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HP Hardware by phorm · 2014-02-05 18:34 · Score: 1

Yeah, they tried to pull the "it's a software/OS issue" card on me, and that there were not any hardware issues. I had to point to their own damn site where there was an issue with this specific laptop before they'd even talk to me.
Then it became, "we're working on an update to fix the issue", which I assumed to mean a BIOS update of some sort.
The update was apparently just a patch so that Photoshop (which wasn't the app I was having issues with) wouldn't run into the issue, as a lot of people were using that particular model for photo-editing (17" screen etc).

So yeah, it took me pulling my records of when I first encountered the issue (within warranty) and then threatening legal action to get them to even support me without paying for the call. After that I was able to wrangle out a 1GB stick of RAM as an alternative to the dual 512MB's it had issues with. The laptop worked fine on a single - larger - stick of RAM.

Dells does crap too, SuperMicro is where it's at by Nicolas+MONNET · 2014-02-05 22:33 · Score: 1

SuperMicro doesn't have platinum support contracts, but for the price difference, you can buy a lot of spares in case shit breaks down. Plus they don't charge you an arm for disk trays: if you buy a server with room for 24 host swap disks, you get 24 empty disk trays you can fill with whatever you want!

Additionally they have the cleanest remote management interface. No annoying pop ups, no artificial browser requirements, no frames, no mandatory Java applets.

That's typical HP behaviour by Nicolas+MONNET · 2014-02-05 22:36 · Score: 1

They do the same shit for server remote admin cards. The hardware's in there, but you can't use it until you shell out the $. Premium plus deluxe HP resellers often have a tendency to forget about those, and you find out the hard way when you have to troubleshoot a server on a saturday and nobody's available with the god damn license key.

The beginning of the end?..... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-06 03:14 · Score: 0

Whilst HP justify doing this by saying everyone else does it, I think they've missed why most server admins want to work with HP kit. Previously, it's been easy to justify paying the premium that you inevitably spend to buy HP over IBM/Dull, because support at some basic level has been assured for many years and in general HP kit has been reliable enough to last easily for 10 years or more. Now, that advantage has been eroded and it's harder to justify the much higher price of equivalent HP kit to those with the purse strings. It may not, but if I were a betting man, I would say that this is likely to hack off their most loyal customers and make them look elsewhere, which in the long term could have very serious side effects on HP's server business, which has hitherto been easily their most profitable business unit. Short term thinking here could spell long term problems for HP and if it does, it will be sad to see as it will inevitably lead to lower quality products, which just feeds into the downward spiral.

Could be a turning point for HP and not in a good way.....

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by swalve · 2014-02-06 05:25 · Score: 1

An 8 bit wav is all you need for telephones. The telephone network is very low bandwidth.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by swalve · 2014-02-06 05:26 · Score: 1

How would the switch know what is inside the ethernet frames?

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by swalve · 2014-02-06 05:27 · Score: 1

It costs Netgear something to create the patches.

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by swalve · 2014-02-06 05:30 · Score: 1

That's what I loved about the HP/Compaq lines of machines. Everything was available, free and easy. Going all the way back to when you could dial into their BBS and download service packs for BIOS setup disks.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by swalve · 2014-02-06 05:34 · Score: 1

I'd be willing to bet that this will really only effect small shops with a few machines. I'd also be willing to bet that those clients cost HP a lot more in support (per dollar of sales) than your giant enterprise customers. Perhaps this is a conscious effort to unload that sector of the market.

Nails in the coffin... by DrStoooopid · 2014-02-06 05:44 · Score: 1

...apparently they're just trying to bankrupt themselves, short-sell their stock, and make a killing.

--
There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.

latent defects may fall through the cracks, Appare by Anonymous Coward · 2014-02-06 13:22 · Score: 0

I tend to disagree with HP. They are like a car manufacturer. And car vendors have one rule for defects that are latent and dangerous, and another for items that may have apparaent failures, such as transmissions, engines. You get a guarantee for as many years as the legal life of the equipment is judged to exist, even if the new car guarantee expires.
These latent defects can be airbags, axles, brakes and a whole gamete of items.

Re:Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep.. by dfries · 2014-02-07 13:00 · Score: 1

How would the switch know what is inside the ethernet frames?

By the time you get up to 48 ports, it's probably not a dumb switch. The layer 3 switches do look into them to do routing depending on how they are configured. IPv6 requires multicast support, and while dumb switch will send the packet out all ports, when you get up to 48 ports you only want to send it to the ports that are interested in it, and I've seen some switches that refuse to send any multicast unless there's a system sending out the IGPM query packets, or you specifically login to configure what ports to send it on. LAN switching - Layer 3 switching

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by Wolfrider · 2014-02-09 20:33 · Score: 1

--That comes under "the cost of doing business." Patches should be available to anyone who has purchased the product, support contract or no.

--
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== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??

Re: Well if HP didn't already have a terrible rep. by swalve · 2014-02-10 08:35 · Score: 1

Right, but the poster said it costs nothing to make.

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HP To Charge For Service Packs and Firmware For Out-of-Warranty Customers

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