Slashdot Mirror
Computer Geeks As Loners? Data Says Otherwise
Computerworld reports on an analysis of census data to compare marriage rates for different professions. They found the rate for tech workers to be similar to that of other white-collar professions, and significantly higher than the rate for the general population. 62.1% of people with IT jobs are married, as are 56.5% of scientists and 65.5% of engineers. This compares well to people in legal professions (62.0%), medical jobs (61.3%), and finance (62.4%). 51% of the adult U.S. population was married as of the 2010 census. Tech workers do have a slightly higher percentage of people who have never married — 26.7% of IT workers and 31.9% of scientists — but they also have slightly fewer divorces.
65.5%! We win!
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
We are normal human beings like the rest of the world.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
the rate for tech workers to be similar to that of other white-collar professions
So that's "tech workers", not computer geeks. Even if you accept the idea that "computer geek" is a meaningful classification, it's no longer the case that only computer geeks work with computers. Tech workers have profiles similar to other white-collar professionals because "tech work' are just white collar professions.
Just what I needed to read on singles shaming day.
I'm just a rarity!
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Just me and Jim Beam.
It's encouraging that a higher than average number of IT workers are married but a higher percentage also have never married because I interpret that to mean IT folks don't just commit, but they stay married too. (I am by profession in IT and I know I am completely committed to my wife and that it's reciprocal, but of course I'm just one person.) There's the term "geek chic" which I guess means nerds are more attractive than they used to be, and I guess that in the end "nice guy syndrome" works to our advantage.
In fact, this is yet another symptom. Their crushing loneliness compels them to wife the first woman that gives them a chance. I've seen this pattern repeatedly throughout the course of my career. It makes work related social events even more unbearable, having to endure exposure to so many unhappy marriages and whatnot.
A "computer geek" is a person who specializes in comptuers.
A tech worker is someone who works in the computer field.
Despite them being similar, they aren't the same. For example, call center tech support is filled with tech workers, but given the scripts and stuff they have, they don't have to specialize in the field.
The computer geek accepts computers as a hobby. This is different than a tech worker, as they end up with a general lack of scripts and go directly into the free-form world.
And this is basically stuffing a wide variety of carrers into one "tech worker" category. Programmers may be in a less social environment (although this varies), tech support specialists may be in a social environment while feeling socially isolated, etc.
"Data say," not "Data says." Unless, of course, you are writing TNG fanfic.
what % of those marriages resulted from online dating? probably very high.
I suspect that when women want to settle down and marry, they're after stability. Obviously, a man who has his act together enough to have an IT degree and a steady-paying job is stable, is likely to make a reliable husband/father, and is thus, worth marrying.
The transition point where women are happy to marry, is usually 20-ish for people without tertiary qualifications, 30-ish for people with bachelor degrees or better. What I've seen in the IT industry bears this out -- everyone under 30 is either single -- or if they have good social skills -- dating. EVERYONE over 30, without exception, is married. Even the complete, unwashed neckbeards.
In contrast, the people I've known, who were cocky winners in high-school, but otherwise dumb as dogsh*t, and stuck on low-paying jobs or the dole? Single, or bouncing between unstable, shitty relationships with fat ugly single mothers.
Stability is catnip for women looking to marry.
We also have lowest unemployment in IT
Everyone claims to be a geek or nerd nowadays. Just like everyone thinks they are the smartest one in the room.
Normal distribution fail.
and many "tech workers" are not computer geeks.
I would agree that most tech workers are not loners, however I think an awful lot of loners are computer geeks. As a loner, I find computers to be a nice a hobby for someone that does not spend much time with other people.
Accept tech worker, sheesh. It's not like all those engineers are actually driving locomotives or building circuit boards or drilling for oil or whatever it is all 'engineers' do.
;-)
imo, if you're in tech, then the tech should be working, not you
How the fuck is this modded up? Fuck you Beta trolls
Check Mate..., with their wife
Sure... In the same way that "paying taxes" counts as a "perk" of civilization. You realize that getting married means you get to pay MORE in taxes, right?
// Plan to stay that way.
/// With the same woman for 20 years, and no plans to upgrade.
//// Fix the damned CSS on Slashdot "Classic", Dice!
/ Not married.
Marriage is nothing more than a worthless title. All it does is bring few tax and legal benefits; nothing more. People do not need to marry, and yet many irrationally think it's this divine thing, even though they don't really pay attention to the benefits I just listed.
Furthermore, the people of which you speak are shallow. Never be in a relationship with someone shallow enough to care overmuch about someone's financial stability.
Meh, GF and myself are in out mid 30's (35 for me, 33 for her) and in no hurry what-so-ever to marry. Been together for 7 years.
Marriage is overrated.
LOL, yeah, that about sums it up.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I'm an ambivert. Many of my tech friends are generally introverts and do appreciate having their own space. But I would only categorize a minority of my computer geek buddies as loners.
This articles looks at marriage rates by income levels. Given that technology professions typically pay above averages wages, perhaps it's not surprising that geeks have marriage rates that are similar to other white collar professionals.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/jobs/posts/2012/02/03-jobs-greenstone-looney
Huh! How about that! Who knew?!
Tell that to my 50s-some-odd cousin who is a musician and dated 2 girls for over 7 years each and never thought he needed to marry. Both relationships ended and he ruined his voice so that he can barely talk. Now he's been alone for over a decade. If he were married (especially to the first girl he dated), they would most likely still be together today, because he really is a pretty good guy and a great conversationalist (voice problems notwithstanding).
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Get over yourself. Some of the "tech workers*" I've ever known could kick the average "computer geeks*" ass and have no interest in computers outside of their day job. Geeks just don't have any other skills so they need to paste pictures of their latest overpriced wireless router to their Facebook to try to act like they're all 1337.
The truth is that most "computer geeks*" know next to nothing about real computing.
* Using your definitions, not mine. To me your "computer geeks" are just punks looking to get owned by someone who understands real computing.
First take in this story.
Perhaps "a 100-person Mechanical Turk study with a $5 research budget" should be done here as well, then define "married" to be engaged in holy matrimony with an actual physical human being (of the opposite, same, or any of the genders defined by Facebook). Perhaps the questionnaire failed to mention "IRL" so they thought WoW counted, too.
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
And you attribute this to him not marrying? For what reason?
Marriage isn't a magical, divine thing; it's nothing more than a title. It won't fix bad relationships, and it won't magically make people stay together.
Thank you Dave Raggett
How can we be lonely? We have SlashDot!
EVERYONE over 30, without exception, is married.
*raises exception*
In 2009, the median age at first marriage was 26 for women and 28 for men. Any job which requires significant education will have a higher average age than the general population, which probably explains the difference in marriage rates. This looks to be a simple average over job categories, which didn't account for that.
Use of the words "good", "bad" or "evil" is almost invariably the result of oversimplification.
As far as 'marriage as title' goes, I think it's a bit more than that.
The sneering 'social justice' hipsters hate it, because they know that marriage entrenches "privilege" in the white middle class. 'Marriage', done properly, is designed to preserve and grow cultural, social and economic wealth in the white middle classes.
You're right -- it's just a "label". It's a powerful one, though.
and i'm an extreme loner. zero surprise there.
My uncle has 3 dogs and a tiny patch of grass outside his house. He told a joke once: Why are women like dog turds? They're both easier to pick up when they get older.
Marriage brings a tax penalty. Lots of old people shack up because they can't (/won't) afford the tax consequences of legal marriage - and they have plenty of free time on their hands to figure it all out.
There are some legal benefits (insurance coverage, etc.), but mostly it's a losing proposition.
And about the shallow enough to care about financial stability, you are absolutely right, in an ideal life, I would find my life partner - date for a few years, then fall on hard financial times and see what happens. Unfortunately, life rarely cooperates with presenting the right tests at the right time.
catch (exception)
{
loser!
}
Look, just because you are married, doesn't mean you aren't still a loner.
Spouse may be outgoing, likes to get out, shop, visit friends, travel, etc...
Loner likes to stay home, take staycations (vacations at home), do as much as possible without leaving the domicile, and typically only interacts with other co-workers in small numbers.
Does this "scientific inquiry" take these factors into account?
Probably not.
The only way to win is not to play.
Then there's the "smartest man in the room syndrome", which you so classically showed in your post. Congratulations!
Just because you couldn't make it in the NFL, NBA or Gymnastics, and now spend your hours delivering keyboards and mice to your co-workers, doesn't make you qualified to talk down to systems engineers.
Yeah, you might be able to *beat up* a systems engineer, but you couldn't think your way out of a wet paper bag.
And yes, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, systems engineers are all engineers, even if we don't get to wear the funny hats and pull the whistle cord on Thomas the Choo-Choo-Train.
What are "social justice hipsters"? Well, regardless, it isn't "powerful" in any objective way and has nothing to do with being white or middle class. It doesn't really grow any of the things you mentioned, either; people with certain mentalities do that, and that has nothing to do with titles.
Thank you Dave Raggett
I think the study might have some merit, but only because the definition of geek has changed a lot.
I got into computers in the early 80s as a very young kid. By the time I really got involved with a "geek" social scene, there was a mix of people. Before that, computers were most definitely nerd toys -- there were very few "typical" folks who gravitated toward them. Even so, I've worked with people who want nothing to do with computers once they are off the clock, people who have a healthy level of hobby involvement with computers, hardcore gamers, and extremely hardcore "computer nerds" -- mom's basement types. The first group are the most likely to be in a stable relationship from my experience. I'm happily married with 2 kiddos, and I put myself in the "healthy level of hobby involvement" camp. It's surprisingly hard to find time to do anything these days with 2 young kids. You certainly won't see me playing video games for 10 hours at a clip anymore...I used to do that back in the day though.
I do have anecdotal evidence from my dealings with "tech workers" that divorces are very common. Lots of people I work with are on Wife #2 or more. I think a lot of that might be the crazy amount of time that work and computer hobbies can suck out of your life -- you really have to be matched up with someone who will either tolerate it or is a "geek" themselves and understands. And like I said, once kids come along, I can see huge problems if you decide to disappear for hours on end and expect your partner to just handle the kids. If you work an IT job for one of the crappier employers out there that demands on-call duty and tons of hours a week, only the shallowest of spouses will stick around and only if you make good money to make up for you not being there.
My other piece of strictly anecdotal evidence is the prevalence of...non-traditional...relationships among the geekier set. One US-born guy I worked with was divorced and constantly trying to bring his girlfriend from China to the US -- no clue how they met. Lots have girlfriends they met online. Others have had obvious mail-order brides. That could sound a little stereotypical, but I've seen LOTS of guy's wives who barely speak English and look like they're pretty much there to cook and clean for them. Maybe I'm just working with the wrong sorts, but that's a very common theme in my experience.
Non-traditionals aside, I think a lot of the evidence the study cites is just because computers are now a normal part of our lives. Anyone can be a Facebook user. Smartphones are designed to be used by non-techies. There are plenty of "IT" jobs that don't involve hardcore coding or systems/analysis work. My job borders on the nerdy side, but only because I make it that way.
I think that if you actually do find the right person, and that person is less of a geek than you are, it balances you out. My wife is incredibly smart, but not obsessed with computers and tinkering the way I am. (She's a finance geek.) If you find someone who's just there for the money or has absolutely no interest in what you do, that's where the divorces and bitterness creep in. I'm almost at 15 years married -- and she hasn't tossed me out yet!
Dungeons & Dragons(TM) nerdiest game ever, requires friends.
Went on a ski trip with about 10 people recently. One was a self-described loner who was married. You have to qualify the term "loner" to a certain extent. He was quite sociable and seemed to enjoy the trip, but it was a special event and not a group he hung out with on a regular basis.
Anyway in the IT group here, everyone that I know of is either in a relationship or married. Included in this group is one of the most unsocial people I've ever met, - at least when it comes to work. But there are folks at the other end of the spectrum too. I picked the word "unsocial" because it isn't like he's rude or actively avoids people. He just doesn't participate in the common sorts of workplace social activities. No lunches. No going out for coffee. No happy hours. Even if it's an official company party, either at the office or someplace else, he won't be there.
Where's the rest of your comment? You usually follow up every comment you post here with scripture from your religious leader. How will I know which part of your statement to love - and which part to hate - if you don't link to a youtube scripture reading?
I work as an engineer, and interact with many other engineers. Few of them completely fulfill the "awkward technophile" stereotype. Many of us do prefer small gatherings, finding large social gatherings exhausting. It may not be as exciting a meat-market, but it is still possible to find someone to marry at small gatherings.
An internal system operation returned the error "The operation completed successfully.".
For some people it's just a title, for others it's a major rite of passage. It doesn't fix a bad relationship but if marriage is important to one person in a relationship and it's apparent that the relationship is not headed down that path, the relationship is likely to end.
Now, I don't know if that's what happened to this guy's cousin or not but it's possible he had a very good relationship with one of those girlfriends but she bailed because she wanted to get married and he didn't. Maybe he's better off. Maybe not.
I also agree that it won't keep people together but it does lead to further entanglement into one another's lives. Splitting requires dealing with legalities and separation of assets. Sometimes that's easy. Often times not. So there is a bit more incentive to try and work things out. Also with marriage often comes children and even more entanglement. The mistake many people make when getting a divorce is thinking they'll no longer have to deal with their spouse. If they have kids they're in for a huge surprise. Dealing with that ex is going to be part of their lives for the foreseeable future, divorced or not.
For some people it's just a title, for others it's a major rite of passage.
The latter type of person is what I would call an "idiot." Frankly, you don't want to be involved with magical thinkers to begin with.
So there is a bit more incentive to try and work things out.
If they're unhappy enough to consider divorce as an option, they'll just be unhappy. If they can make up, they would do that anyway.
Also with marriage often comes children and even more entanglement.
Children have little to do with marriage, but with basic reproductive urges.
Thank you Dave Raggett
What are "social justice hipsters"?
People who think social justice is important, can't be bothered to understand the issues involved, yet still have a very strong opinion (and look down in scorn on anyone who disagrees).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
How many are old farts and still virgin like me? I will be like The 40 Years Old Virgin soon. :P
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
You seem to be confusing "my" "definition" of computer geek with someone who uses a computer. Using a computer as a hobby is different than using a computer as a means for a hobby.
And taking pictures of their overpriced wireless routers to post on MyFace, Spacebook or some other vanity page is on par with showing off a phallic symbol. Most commonly done by fakers.
For some people it's just a title, for others it's a major rite of passage.
The latter type of person is what I would call an "idiot." Frankly, you don't want to be involved with magical thinkers to begin with.
Rites of passage are part of the culture and not necessarily religious if that's what you're referring to by "magical thinking". Marriage can be a religious arrangement or not.
So there is a bit more incentive to try and work things out.
If they're unhappy enough to consider divorce as an option, they'll just be unhappy. If they can make up, they would do that anyway.
Not necessarily. I've met people who've considered divorce, decided to stick together and ended up being quite happy. At least one of those couples would have split had they not been married.
Also with marriage often comes children and even more entanglement.
Children have little to do with marriage, but with basic reproductive urges.
Certainly you can have children without marriage but if you think they are strictly the result of reproductive urges then your life experience must be fairly limited in that regard. There is such a thing as birth control and adoption. For many, having children is a conscious choice.
Though there are practical aspects to relationships, they are all about emotions. Logical or not, going through the process of getting married in front of friends and family is important to some people. What matters is that they are successful at finding happiness and whether you'd consider them an idiot or not for their "magical thinking" is irrelevant.
I'm married and still a loner. In fact, I'm sitting here on Slashdot while my wife watches the Olympics.
final
{
But it is your life, so enjoy it and live it any way you like regardless of what anyone else thinks.
}
Women want to marry "up." IT pros tend to make more money than the average schlub.
Therefore a woman, upon discovering that a tolerably attractive man is an IT pro, is more interested than she would be otherwise.
Now obviously the kooks, creeps, freaks, and autistic weirdos are excluded from this, but then they are excluded no matter what they do for a living.
Used to be that women wanted to marry doctors and lawyers. Doctors they still do. Lawyers are toast as there are NO JOBS for law school graduates. People currently in law school may not realize this, but women looking to marry sure as hell do. Men who make good money in the IT realm have been added to the preferred list of potential husbands.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
mod parent up!
Social Justice: The flawed notion that losers and failures are the victims of the adequate and the able and that society must be rearranged to punish the latter and liberate the former from personal responsibility. See Marxism.
Social Justice Hipsters are people who disparage those who make wise and proper choices in life, knowing that with every good turn, the targets of their disdain pull further and further away from people who huff paint, stick needles in their arms, or otherwise engage in behaviors that lead to failure. Social Justice Hipsters hate anything that is a key behavioral difference between winners and losers. A stable and functional marriage is one of the strongest institutions for the creationg of wealth and social capital. Functional marriages also have a profound role in the creation of next-generation's winners and achievers. Therefore the Social Justice Hipsters hate it, just as they hate anything else that contributes to human happiness and well being.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Rites of passage are part of the culture and not necessarily religious if that's what you're referring to by "magical thinking".
Rites of passage might as well be religious; they employ the same shallow level of critical thinking, and especially so in cases like this.
Not necessarily. I've met people who've considered divorce, decided to stick together and ended up being quite happy.
But I also said, "If they can make up, they would do that anyway."
At least one of those couples would have split had they not been married.
There's no way to know that.
And what about people who split up *because* they were married?
For many, having children is a conscious choice.
You are incorrect. Whether people admit to it or not, they are controlled by instinct. While yes, it is possible to use birth control or adopt, that does not mean that instincts don't play a huge part in making someone decide to mate; they do. At any rate, marriage has *nothing* to do with it, and far more to do with the person's mentality.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Functional marriages also have a profound role in the creation of next-generation's winners and achievers.
Functional marriages have nothing to do with anything, as marriage is just a title. Functional relationships seem more likely to cause whatever it is you're talking about. Marriage needn't enter into it; it's just that people with certain mentalities are more likely to get married.
Thank you Dave Raggett
their original statement with 51% of US adults are OR have been married. Since obviously, every other person you meet is not married and these numbers have been in a general decline. Controversially related to levels of education.
Of course instinct plays a huge role in mating. But couples can and do decide to have no kids even though they are mating. Other couples may have one or two, then stop even though they continue mating and could have more kids if they wanted.
There is something between instinct and critical thinking which also drives a lot of our behavior and that is called "culture". You personally may decide through critical thinking that marriage in and of itself has no value. However, the current culture places a lot of value in marriage (though that may be changing).
Anyone can choose to deviate from cultural norms if they wish. They may be happier for doing so but many times there is a price to pay for going down that road. Anyone who doesn't see that isn't really applying critical thinking. They are choosing to ignore what might be very important factors. They are sticking their head in the sand.
So I will state it this way. Marriage is important because the culture says it is. Ask anyone over 50 who has never been married. They might be happy with that choice, but I'm sure that at times it's been difficult because the cultural norm is for people to get married.
Look at it another way: Ask any gay couple in a state that doesn't allow gay marriage whether marriage is important or not. You will quickly find out that it's more than just a title. There are practical ramifications for remaining unmarried.
Of course instinct plays a huge role in mating. But couples can and do decide to have no kids even though they are mating.
Even if they decide not to have kids, there are unseen factors at work that make them take that path. Again, the point is that marriage has nothing to do with any of this, but what does matter is the mentality of the people who decide/don't decide to have children.
However, the current culture places a lot of value in marriage (though that may be changing).
People who mindlessly follow what others are doing are themselves mindless. Again, I see no evidence that people who place high value in marriage are anything more than magical thinkers.
Anyone who doesn't see that isn't really applying critical thinking.
In this case, there are no worthwhile benefits to me. Furthermore, since I have principles and find marriage disgusting, it isn't something I'd ever consider to begin with.
Look at it another way: Ask any gay couple in a state that doesn't allow gay marriage whether marriage is important or not. You will quickly find out that it's more than just a title.
Actually, no. No matter what individuals feel about it, it will always be a mere title. Asking gay couples would change literally nothing.
There are practical ramifications for remaining unmarried.
Which you've yet to name. I believe one of them would be hospital visitation rights, but it's absolutely ridiculous that our society is so primitive that that can't be solved in other ways at this point in time (Or can it?).
And there are also practical ramifications to getting married.
Thank you Dave Raggett
never did understand that phrase. i guess the article is talking about shirts?
'Social Justice: The flawed notion that losers and failures are the victims of the adequate and the able and that society must be rearranged to punish the latter and liberate the former from personal responsibility. See Marxism.'
So how is it socially just that people can have wildly differing levels of resource from birth?
Also perhaps you should read some Marxism rather than just spout a name so you actually know what it is.
'Lack of resources from birth'
I don't buy that. I came from a rough background and got kicked out of home with nothing but 3 years of high school and the clothes on my back. Yet I managed to find a way to find work, make the right choices, and build a future for myself. I know several other people who managed that.
My advantage was that I had the right attitudes and behaviours, and made the right decisions when I was young.
"Resources" had nothing to do with it. Try again.
You and your buddies are the exceptions, not the rule. Anecdotes don't mean much at all.
Are you certain you're not reversing cause and effect?
So, functionally married but not legally. Enjoy it, the legal part adds very little if anything.